New Issue of "Voice of Jihad"

Here is my voice: Nuke Mecca!
Fuck you koranimals, you are worthless worshipers of death.

You learn just enough about technology, you didn’t invent, and couldn’t ever, to destroy and break things. The NSA has the echelon program to sniff out the web. This works for us. The more these people speak out electronically, the more they reveal.

Remember Americans and peaceful peoples in the world, we hold the cards in this war.
What we don’t have is the will to make use of them.

Again: Mr. Infidel, I am leaving your comments here for now, but I must emphasize: it is absolutely wrong to nuke Mecca or to attack anywhere in the Muslim world without a valid military objective. If we start considering all Muslims to be enemy combatants, we have sunk to the level of Osama.

Sir,

Read my response on the next thread. http://www.robertspencer.org/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=22

Expletives aside, I stand by my positions.

Taking out the power base of all radical Islam (is there any other? If there is, prove it)
is a necessity to end radicalism and terrorism.

I understand that non-radical Islam has a weaker basis in Islamic history and theology and tradition than does the radical variety. I've written 2 books about this. But there are millions upon millions of non-radical Muslims. And they are no more responsible for Osama than you are.

Robert,

As you admit, the non radical ones are outnumbered by radicals, so I ask...

Exactly how should we protect ourselves from 1.3 billion Muslims in 57 countries, many of which are actively seeking weapons of mass destruction and which espouse insane threats to us on a daily basis.

Is the Christianization (by force if necessary) not a potential solution to fixing this diseased culture.

Again, please read the link I provided. It gives an ETHICAL argument for how innocents should be handled in times of war.

Can you refute it?

Mr. Spencer: You are the owner of this website and you're providing an incredible service with bringing it to us.

I appreciate the fact that you allow us to make comments under each article. I'd like to suggest one important idea. Please, don't let this wonderful site and it's comments section turn into an X rated version like the comments section of Frontpage Magazine.

I dislike reading comments like the ones left behind by Infidel 11 who can't write any comment without every possible cuss word in the book. We all now fully understand his position. It's both "missionary" and total genocide.

You will not interfere with his freedom of speech because there is no such thing as freedom of speech in a public forum such as this.

My idea is for you to ban him from posting. He's already turning your website into a joke and I don't want to see more harm come to it.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob, you're right. I am going to give them a try a bit longer, but I may end up turning off comments altogether. I certainly don't have time or inclination to get tied up with responding to comments. But I thought he was providing an opportunity, through all the obscenity (for which I apologize), for me to clarify some important positions. Hence at least for now I'm going to leave it all up, but that could change quickly as things develop. My last word on all this is what I already posted elsewhere: I believe in the principles of the American Republic, and that if we cannot win without discarding them, then any victory we achieve is worthless. We will have become our enemies.

It is difficult to understand a religion called Islam, which I understand means "peace?" It is also difficult to understand when they claim Abraham, who is traditionally regarded as the father of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, yet they say "Our number one enemy are the Jews and the Christians, and we must free ourselves to invest all our efforts until we annihilate them - and we are able do this if Allah allows us to do it - because they are the main obstacle to establishing the Islamic state."
This sort of logic is hard to comprehend. I live on an island where it was once stated that 50% of the population are dysfunctional. When I occasionally peeked at the Jerry Springer Show and other similar shows, I realized that the US held about the same percentage, but the Arab countries must have a higher than 90% dysfunctional rate, for their lack of logic and free thinking!
As to Infidel #11, can't say that I agree with you entirely, but will admit that those words might have been my own the week after 9/11!

I'm GLAD to see postings from Americans who are SICK AND TIRED of radical muslim fundamentalists exporting their terror and bastard religion to other parts of the world!

You guys have no idea.

Technology: there are more post graduates in the Muslim world than you know i.e. Network Engineers, Chemists, Physicians, Scientists.

The are so many Christians and non-believers turning to Islam, it's just pure ignorance and lack of education that some humans fail to understand. The so called "enemy" walk hand in hand i.e free masons who are believers of the devil and construct plans to rule the world but will never succeed.

This for Infidel #11 - Sleep Well.........

Islam has the Will, No matter how hard you try, The one above will never be defeated.

Adious - I won't charge you for my time.......

(Sigh)

You know it is easy to be angry, to want to go after Islam because members of that particular religion attacked your country.

But I might point out that the record-breaking terrorist in the US prior to Sept. 11 was a fundamentalist Christian of European descent. His name was Timothy McVeigh. And I don't recall anyone calling for the bombing of Idaho in response, since the local government there did little and still does little to curb violent militia groups.

I might also add that my hometown, Boston, is the biggest source of funds for the IRA, which has killed as many people over the last 30 years or so as the Islamists. More recently, they attempted to destroy the BBC headquarters in White City, coming within inches of killing some acquaintances of mine. Had the driver of the taxi been a bit closer to the door, dozens, if not hundreds, of people could have been injured and killed.

So, shall the British government call on the RAF to bomb Boston, occupy Massachusetts, and do some house-to-house searches for the people who financed that particular act? By the Bush doctrine they would be within their rights to do so. After all, our government has failed to stop the money flowing from Boston to Northern Ireland.

Who is a terrorist seems to depend on who wins the war and who is fighting whom.

Many of the governments that support terrorists -- Saudi Arabia, for example -- operate with US support. As exhibit A I present the most recent sales of high-end military hardware from the US, which went to Saudi Arabia. In Pakistan as well, our government has seen fit to support Musharraf, who spends far more time attacking trade unions and other _secular_ opposition groups, which removes from the scene the alternative political avenue to the Islamists. If you kill and imprison secular opposition groups because democracy is not acceptable, then who is left? The Shah of Iran -- another US-installed leader - found out the answer to that question in 1979.

Were I an Arab, and examining the record of the US (and the other major powers) in the Middle East, as well as the rest of the third world, the record would lead me to conclude that democracy is fine for Europeans and Americans but not acceptable for those of a darker shade of skin. It is a major irony that the healthiest democracy among Islamic states is probably Iran. In Iran they have elections, and within limits, an internal debate about the role of Islam in their society (a quick read of the major Iranian newpapers is proof of this, as well as the fact that there is a big debate going on as to who will be the next president there). This is not true of our friends Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Pakistan. Or Iraq, for that matter, when saddam Hussein was our "bulwark against Islamic fundamentalism" in the Middle East (those words are Ronald Reagan's, by the way).

I believe in using the principles that I think mae the US a great nation. But I also think that we had better give the rest of the world a reason to believe that we stand by them abroad as well as at home. Thus far the record is pretty poor. Can anyone blame the rest of the world -- especially the third world -- for basically taking us at our word, or rather, our actions? If we make it clear that democracy for these countries is not an acceptable outcome, well, we shouldn't be surprised when people in the Arab street decide our principles are so much air.

The awful, horrible acts by the people that killed thousands in New York are not justifiable. But to understand why people do things is not the same as saying they are a good idea. When World War II ended, many in the Allied command were for making the Germans _really_ pay for what they had done. But cooler heads prevailed, and it became clear that humiliating the Germans would get you exactly what it did the last time they tried that.

Let me put it another way: if another nation said to the President of the US that they demand we sell our resources to them and allow their companies to control those resources, what response would you expect? How long ouwld it be before a group of Americans decided to fight, any way they could?

I leave the rest as an exercise for the student.

what is a "mosque thing" and where does it sleep during the day?

to those who do not understand islam do not comment on what you are not educated on just shows how ignorant you are on top of being a non beliver

What does islam mean? What does muslim mean? How are muslims different from others? Why people have to accept islam?

Isnt it funny that the number of converts to Islam in USA has increased many fold after september 11??? I think those of who are bashing Islam here should ought to go find out why such a thing is happening in US?

Islam or otherwise, any kind of fundamentalism is simply a ludicrous idea in the 21st century. As for what America has done in the Middle East (humiliation, support of dictatorial regimes, exploitation of Arab oil fields) it is never wise to emotionally judge empires. This is what empires do because they need to survive. It is neither good of bad. It is dialectics.

Unusual ideas can make enemies.

Quran is a copy of "tora" or old testment bible.In taht time,in madeena, lot of jews were staying there.from them, it copied with a lot of re-writings to guide other people in right way.but all became in vain....bcoz it is not from the GOD.

It is my understanding that under Islam "non-belivers" have three choices; conversion, submission, or death.

Islam is not a religion. It is a political idealogy the holds a close parallel to National Socialism under Adolf Hitler.

Allah is not a god it is a political symbol.

Jihad is not a struggle. It is a means whereby corrupt individuals can exert influence over others.

Islamists are not religious zealots, they are spoiled children eaten by envy of others.

FIN

I have an idea, most radical Muslims want an Islamic state, and it appears that will stop at nothing to achieve this, even if it means killing innocent people around the world. The radicals often quote the Qur’an. So let me quote the Bible; an eye for an eye!! They kill one of us (Americans) we kill one of them!! They detonate a bomb, we detonate a bomb, and the beauty is that they will detonate a homemade bomb, will detonate a nuclear bomb. Lets see who wins. Who do you think the victor will be?

It boggles the mind trying to understand the thinking and mindset of the radical fundamentalist middle eastern people.

Reason, Respect for Life, Rationality, Respect for Others Beliefs, The Notion of Tolerance, To Have Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Worship, Freedom to Learn, To be Civilized; all of these
basic ideas seem to be beyond the grasp of thought or understanding for these misinformed and desparate radicals.

It is now the year 2003. The thinking based on ideas that have long lost relevance in today's world needs to be reformed and changed; otherwise the radical sect of Islam will slowly pass into non existance with all of the other outdated and irrevelant ideas of the world.

How presumptious of the radical Islamists to believe that their's is the only religion. Although I too believe as one of the other comment contributers, that their religion is nothing more that a polital doctrine set in place to promote a
system of control and domination over their very
own people.

Perhaps the year 2004 will bring some inkling
of reason to the otherwise confused and befuddled mind of the Radical Fundamentalist Islamists of the world.

Organized religion has caused more death and oppression throughout world history than any disease, war or famine combined.

I agree with Michael in New York. However I must add that the American politicians and media is also doing great harm and injustice. They fuel the fire.... to use an old cliche. They have no clue what Jihad is all about.

Perhaps we all need to hear the messages from our Al Queda bretheran and address the real issues. Have you read the handbook?

"The confrontation that we are calling for with the apostateregimes does not know Socratic debates...,Platonic ideals..., nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun."

I'm a new yorker, I'm still as mad as i was the day of 9/11, But one question i have for you bleeping radicals,what makes you think you could win don't you know that we (u.s.)will crush you like a pig.......................

Just found your site, very interesting reading. My question is for MR Spencer, are you on the side of the Jihad? Not that is matters to me. If the Radical Fundamentalist Islamists of the world, were not trying to kill Americans it would be someone else.

I'm just trying to educate myself on how anyone could hate other people so much that they would just randomly kill people.

Jim

Islam calls all people to Tawheed: To believe that there is none worthy to worship follow or obey in truth except for Allah(swt) and accept Muhammad(saw) as His Final Messenger.
If we look to the world we find that everything is weak, limited or dependant. Man is weak; plants depend on sunlight; the sun is powered by nuclear reactions that are themselves limited.
At present we are all living in societies where the Law of God is not present, where man has taken legislation into his own hands rejecting his Creator both explicitly and implicitly. Consequently when the Law of God is not executed corruption spreads as Allah(swt) has informed us in the Koran. Today we see this in the form of homosexuality, alcoholism, Sexually transmitted diseases, money laundering via interest based transactions...the list is endless.
As Muslims we believe the only solution is to refer to our Creator who has given us the answers through Koranic revelation and Prophetic revelation. We reject all other ways of life and then believe in Allah(swt) His names and attributes exclusively:

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth(Islam) stands out clear from Error(non-Islam): whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

All of a Muslims actions are purely for the sake of Allah(swt) not from personal desire hence when judging actions such as 9/11 reference must be made to the text to see whether it conflicts. Muslims are obliged to defend themselves under strict guidelines set down by Allah(swt) if the criteria is met then such defence is permissible. The acts of 9/11 fulfilled this criteria and hence were totally justified, there is no argument amongst the Islamic Scholars regarding this.
Humanity for example stems from mans ration and desire, if we look to man for answers and obey and follow him we will stray. Allah(swt)created man and he has commanded all of mankind to worship follow and obey Him exclusively.

[3:85]If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

[3:185] Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full reward. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object of Life: For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception.

If you have any questions, by all means post them and i will do my best to answer them.

Come to the call of Islam,

Saiful Islam.

The problem with Islam is it never underwent a reformation the way Christianity did. Hence, you are left with something that philosophical has not evolved in 600 plus years. It's ideas are essentially sophomoric in philosophical terms.

Futhermore, Middle Eastern countries have not undergone an important aspect of democratization - separation of Church and State. They are all theocracies.

So you have sophomoric philosophical ideals made "legitimate" though a forced theocracy. At it's essence, it is no different than any other leftist philosophy (communism, nazism, fascism) that must be enforced via a regime for people to accept it.

And frankly, it doesn't have to be Islam. I'm not too keen on any religion being the basis of a government.

I'd have no problem with fundamental Islamists as long as they adhere to the ideals of separation of church and state, and they respect people's the freedom to choose to believe or not.

However, these fundamental Islamists have blind obedience to their doctrine - very similar to the way the Nazis believed in Hilter's final solution. I personally don't see how we can avoid a clash of cultures unless the moderate Islamists take back control and push for reformation. I hold out hope for this because the alternative is bloody for everyone.

Abu Bara,

Why would any civilized individual want to "come to the call of islam." islam is a cult that worships an idol, "allah", as represnted by a brigand, "mohammed."

After all, history shows mohammed to be a clever criminal who hid in the hills and slit peoples throats for the gold they carried. he happened to have the unfortunate fortune of spreading his form of intolerance and hatred to others. In turn creating followers who coerced others to join until he had enough power to enlarge his holdings by force.

In order to hold possesions and project his power both politically and militarily, he came up with a cult of idol worship, "islam" and an idol to worship, "allah" (he would have suceeded just as well with "baal").

The foundation of the quran is the Torah or Old Testament. mohammed's followers were not scholarly enough to create their own book of faith. They simply took the Torah and bastardized it as a means of legitamizing the own cult.

Once again, islam, allah, jihad, are all nothing more than the means of exerting power over others. One can not consider a cult that routinely preaches genocide, homicide, suicide, etc a religion. It is nothing more than a popular cult. Look to history to see the many parallels, i.e. Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Kim Jong Il's North Korea. These all eventually feel under their own weight as to will islam.

Indeed Abu, "every soul shall have the taste of death." But the cult of islam truly revels in death. it fosters death and preaches death, and teches death. And especially the death of others.

A few corrections are required...

Michael, I think your comment is rather suspect. But even if it's true the tiny numbers of atheists in the world and in history have made a remarkable effort to prove you wrong--quite in disproprtion to their numbers. The Black Book of Communism puts Mao's death toll at 65 million. Communism worldwide has killed an estimated 100 million people. As an alternative, organized atheism isn't very pretty.

Cute, to quote Ismail Royer of islamtoday.com "There have been no formal, scientific polls of mosques to determine whether a reported increase in conversions actually exists." What you have are a few anecdotal stories of conversions frequently repeated to give the impression that something is there that is not. Just more propaganda. You are empoying a typical Islamic technique--if you don't have any facts go with what you have, a rumor.

And I hope everyone heard Saiful's comments, The acts of 9/11 ... were totally justified." See Quran 9:123 "O ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers who are near you and let them find harshness in you." And there are many other others like it in your Quran. Understand the problem isn't radical muslims. The problem is the Quran and hence Islam.

Yes, the problem is the Quran and Muhammed's deeds.
I think a good question to ask Muslims is what is your ideal example of a holy man?
If it is Muhammed, the ideal is a fascist.
Muhammed(at least in his later life)taught completely contradictory teachings than those of Jesus.
And in the west, our ideals are based on Jesus' teachings, whether we want to realise that or not, we are surrounded by these ideals.
If Truth and Love are your highest ideals, then you can never accept Islam, well, w/o a thorough brainwashing possibly.
Islam doesn't care about truth or love...even if every non-muslim was gone, guess what,they would just end up killing one another for not being Islamic enough.(to the last man standing)
Islam allowed to flourish means death, plain and simple...first death of truth, then death of love and finally death of you.And very importantly, it also means death of the soul, Islam kills your soul before it kills your body...9/11 hijackers..their souls were already dead when they hijacked those planes.
Islam wants souls mostly, but if it cannot have your soul, it will try to take your body.
And we know which is more important right.
Islam may one day take my body, who knows, but it will never ever take my soul.
Unfortunately, Islam demands one or the other.
Thats why you cannot leave Islam under penalty of death.

Well said Abu Bara... aka "Saiful". But you know, it seems the world still hasn't heard you. Perhaps you can contact me offline. rexpadjhny

Happy New York!

First and foremost i invite all of you to Islam, to believe that there is none worthy to worship follow or obey in truth except for Allah (swt)and accept Muhammad(saw) as His Final Messenger.

This is in response to Peter:

The term civilised under contemporaries has been interpreted as compliance with corrupted values such as homosexuality, abortion, bestiality, pornography...etc. For this type of individual Islam, the Deen of Truth will not compliment his character. Islam calls for the rejection of such values.

Allah(swt) has Names and Attributes that are exclusively for Him. One of His Names is Al-Hakam (The Legislator), hence if man rejects his creator and legislates law eg: Democracy/Marxism/Socialism/Communism, he rebels against Allah(swt), if he believes in Allah(swt) as our Lord (G.W.Bush) yet persists on legislating man-made law he sets himself as a partner to His creator and again rebels against Allah(swt)(shirk). Muslims believe that God has 3 main rights 1) The rights of His Names and Attributes. 2) The rights of His Commands. 3) The right to be worshipped exclusively. These together are known as the 'Sanctity of Allah(swt)' that Muslims are obliged to defend, not for personal reasons, purely for the sake of God. We believe we were created to worship our creator and not to be heroes like Neo from The Matrix: 'save humanity from extinction'. This is not mans purpose.

Muslims believe Muhammad(saw) is the Final Prophet sent down by God, the statement made about him being a barbaric person is as false as 'The War on Saddam and WMD'. If you indeed look into History you will find that Islam liberated society after society from oppression, I call you to observe the Islamic rule in Andolusia (Spain), where Christians and Jews enjoyed the benefits of the Shari'ah: Alma Bendanir a contemporary Jew compiled a book called 'The Rise and Fall of Paradise' describing Andolus at the time of the Islamic Rule (The Golden Age). Quote-"thus no pressure for jews in the tenth century Andonesia to retire in the ghetto, there were no laws and scarcely any customs that confined the Jews to any place or occupation when the gates were shut they were the ones who shut them themselves." Christian (Gibbon) Quote: “ In a time of tranquillity and justice the Christians had never been compelled to renounce the Gospel and to embrace the Koran.” All this 'barbaric' nonsense that gets circulated needs to be verified, the global onslaught on Islam has painted a false history of Islam that causes such ignorance. Indeed Muhammad(saw) participated in battles yet it must be understood that in war candy does not get passed around, people do get hurt. Jihad in islam is a huge topic, there many types and it is a very sensitive issue because like a surgical operation the slightest mistake could be disastrous.
Muslims believe the Koran to be the Word of God, we believe all the Prophets came down with the same message, to worship none but God. We follow the same religion as Ibrahim(as) or Abraham(as) as you know him. The parables within the Koran were meant to be a sign for the jews and christians to recognize not to be rejected. Many did however, and embraced Islam in their thousands. Abdullah Ibn Salaam(ra) a Jewish Rabbi (living at the time of the arrival of Muhammad(Saw)) who constantly studied the Torah recognized this final message as it was described in the scripture (torah) and embraced Islam. The miracles within the Koran still exist to be defeated, if it is indeed falsehood then it must be proved so. Yet to this day man has not been able to create the like of the Koran.

Hitler and Stalin called for the Law of Man, i call you to the law of God.

I am not trying to attack you Peter, i'm simply here to discuss and debate. You might be right i might be right, i'm just here to pass on the message of Islam and do my duty as a Muslim. Allah(swt) has warned mankind that they will be resurrected, created again like they were created before in this life and accounted for all that they did in this world, if they pass they will enter Paradise if they fail they will enter hell fire, permanantly. Muslims look to Paradise as the ultimate victory not this temporary place where eventually we will die.

Come to the call of Islam,

Saiful Islam.

Abu Bara,

You need a good course in logic and critical reading.

Like most religious tomes, the Koran is contradictory. There are many aspects it which condemn your views, just as there are aspects of the Bible that cannot be reconciled. You know this and I know this.

Your views are simply are a reflection of the fact that you have unilaterally decided to select the views set forth in the Koran which support your murderous predilections. You ignore those which command you to be tolerant and peaceful.

Your choice is not a wise one since the West is vastly more powerful than you and your cohorts. Your views are ultimately suicidal.

c2

PS: I hope you don't really believe that "72 virgins" hogwash.

Abu,

I will agree with you that learning and scientific study certainly reached its zenith under the caliphates of the middle ages. Islam was a benevolent tolerant reigion compared to the oppressive Roman Catholicism of time. But what happened to the fostering of knowledge and tolerance.

Today's islam supresses individual freedom and expression underneath the fanatical mullah's iron sandal. Today's islam shoots women in the back of the head to cheering crowds in soccer stadiums simply on the allegation that she spoke with a man who was not her husband or part of her immediate family. Today's islam boards up institutes of higher education if they do not agree with what is being taught. Todays islam burns school children to death for not properly adhereing to a anachronistic dress code. Todays islam destroys beuatiful works of faith if the faith is not islam. Todays islam breeds youth whose only aspiration is to blow up a bus of innocents in a futile attempt to change what is deemed wrong by fanatics sitting on plush cushions in ornate mosques. I can go on and on with these examples but its makes one sick and angry.

What happened Abu? What happened to "a time of tranquillity and justice"? Why does "All this 'barbaric' nonsense that gets circulated" be loudly claimed in the name of allah. Why do your imams and mullahs continually preach death and destruction in the name of your false prophet.

If your cult was indeed a true religion, would not man know it and welcome it in his heart. Would you need your legions of suicide bombers and plane hijackers. Would there be need for your iconoclasts and religious police.

I think not.

Abu,

First off, I would like to thank you for answering the questions that we pose to you.

#1. Why was were the actions of 9/11 justified? Was it that the United States is a nation ruled under the law of man instead of the law of Allah?

#2. If that is the case, what nations in the world would you deem as proper in terms of practicng the teachings of the Koran?

#3. Under the Koran, what types of actions are justified in terms of converting over a nation under the law of man to the law of Allah? For example, would the actions of an 9/11 type of event be justified in a country that has never been hostile towards teachings of the Koran? The only problem with the country being that the country is governed under the laws of man instead of Allah.

Why can muslims sleep with 72 virgins in heaven when it is strictly forbidden in earth by Islam?

Why can muslims drink wine in heaven when it is forbidden in earth?

From a lecture; inshaa allah this will clear up any doubts we have about non-muslims, Allah(swt) speaks of them in the Koran and informs us of their motives. And who speaks more truth than Allah(swt)?

What the non-muslims/kuffar want:

1)For Muslims to become Kafir like them

Allah (SWT) says in the Qur'an:

'…they wish (Wudd) that you reject faith, as they have rejected faith, and thus that you become equal…' [EMQ 4:89]

Here Allah (SWT) uses the word Al-Wudd, meaning that the kuffar would love for you to become just like them, having no hope of the mercy of Allah(SWT) on the day of judgement. However the Messenger Muhammad (saw) told the Muslims that they are not like the kuffar, rather he said: 'Islam is superior and will never be surpassed' Hence Muslims should never stoop down to the level of the non-Muslims but always remain steadfast on the Deen of Al-Islam, no matter how many trials and tribulations they suffer and no matter what the conspiracies of the kuffar. The non-Muslims will always resent the firm belief of practising Muslims and their unwillingness to compromise at all on any issue specified in the divine text

2)To fight Muslims until they turn away from their Deen (ideology)

In addition Allah (SWT) says:

'…they will continue to fight you until they turn you away from your Deen…' [EMQ 2:217]

In other words we are informed that the non-Muslims will continue to fight the Muslims, even if it means they kill them, as in Afghanistan and in Iraq, if they do not turn away and become non-Muslims like them. But Allah (SWT) warns Muslims: '…whoever is diverted from his Deen and dies in kufr (disbelief) their actions have failed in this life and in the hereafter, they are the people of hell-fire. Forever there…'

3)To get Muslims to follow their rational desires by tempting them with Shahawah

Allah (SWT) says in the Qur'an:

'…Those who follow their rational desires wish you to have a grave diversion so that you may become part of them…' [EMQ 4:27]

This ayah was revealed to the Messenger Muhammad (saw) concerning someone who wanted to get married, but not according to the tradition (Sunnah) of the Messenger Muhammad (saw) but according to man made law and traditions. As-Shahawah here are the bad deeds which provoke ones instincts and needs, such as the procreation instinct through the promotion of promiscuity, pornography, free-mixing, homosexuality and adultery and the needs such as the glamorisation of certain foods, clothing and expensive places to live. So we see that the biggest industries in the capitalist world are pornography, gambling, drugs and alcohol, cosmetics, fashion etc…

4)To attack Muslims by catching them off-guard

Allah (SWT) says:

'…they wish if you have a little Al-Ghafla [i.e. to be off-guard or to nod off] from your weapon, so that they can attack you…' [EMQ 4:102]

Hence it is not surprising that the Kuffar are today demanding Muslims to give up their weapons in Iraq and elsewhere, as in Pakistan. In contrast, Allah (SWT) tells Muslims to prepare as much as possible from the best weapons to terrify the enemy, fight them if they fight you and as a powerful deterrent. It is prohibited for Muslims to give details of where their weapons are to the Kuffar, let alone give them to the Kuffar!!! To the extent that Allah (SWT) is saying in these ayat (verses) that Muslims should even be careful when they pray, keeping their weapons with them all the time and taking turns in praying whilst others keep guard. In addition the Messenger Muhammad (saw) said that 'the weapon is the dazzling (i.e. showing off and decoration) of the Muslim', it being recommended for the Muslim man to carry a weapon with him at all times.

We can see the consequences of Muslims giving up their weapons in Bosnia, when the UN took them from the Muslims and allowed the Kuffar Serbs to slaughter the Muslims on a mass scale.

5)To see the Muslims in pain and suffering

Allah (SWT) says:

'…they wish you to suffer and to see you in pain. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths but what is in their hearts is far worse…' [EMQ 3:118]

Hence we can see how the Kuffar delight when Muslims are attacked and killed. Only recently addressing a conference in Wales, did the fascist Tony Blair say that he was 'proud' of what he (and the US) did in Afghanistan, where using B52 bombers some 200,000 Muslims were indiscriminately killed and/or are currently missing! He said that the problem in Kashmir was 'the Terrorists', meaning the Muslim Mujahideen, who are defending innocent Muslim men, women and children from being murdered by the occupying Hindu forces, who have no qualms about gang raping Muslim women. Moreover the barbaric US and UK have no problems with providing political, military and economic support to the pirate State of Israel despite its open occupation of Muslim land and atrocities committed against Muslims.

6)To turn the light of Allah (SWT) off

Allah (SWT) says:

'…they wish to extinguish the light (Nur) of Allah by their own tongues…but Allah rejects their own plots and will make his Deen complete even if the Kuffar hate it…'
'…Verily Allah sent the Messenger with the Deen of guidance and truth in order to dominate over all other Deens (i.e. religions; such as Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism and ideologies; such as capitalism and Communism) even if the idolaters dislike it…' [EMQ 9:32 & 33]

Allah (SWT) tells us here that the kuffar will do everything they can to harm the Muslims. So we see today that there are US and UK forces murdering Muslims in the middle east. However Allah (SWT) has promised Muslims victory in the long run. We may lose a battle or two but we will not lose the ultimate war between truth and falsehood. It is not the weapons or sophistication that guarantees victory, rather victory is in the hands of Allah (SWT) who will grant it to whom he wishes. Hence Muslims must prepare as much as they can to fight the aggressors which includes putting their full trust in Allah (SWT) for the outcome and result. The weapons of the Muslims are therefore Imaan (unwavering belief), tawakkul (full reliance on Allah) as well as the physical preparations.

Muslims must also appreciate that they must strive to implement the Shari'ah i.e. Al-Khilafah, on a State and societal level. This is the only acceptable way for Muslims to live, for all their affairs, be they economic, social, ruling, judicial etc… to be governed solely by the Shari'ah (Islamic law) manifested in the Islamic State. The presence of the Khilafah will mean that Muslims will once more have a shield behind which to protect themselves and from behind which they can fight to protect Muslim life, honour and wealth. It will also form a means by which the Islamic authority can spread by removing the obstacles in the way of implementing the shari'ah culminating in re-uniting Muslim land under one law and order and one authority. This would of course mean a new super-power in the world, whose army would love death the way the kuffar love this life and who would love to fight and die for the sake of Allah (SWT) to raise his name the highest. This is the real fear of the kuffar and why they were eager to stop the Taleban when they adopted this project. However, despite the attempts of the kuffar, Allah (SWT) promises us in the Qur'an that he will give Muslims victory and authority the way he gave it to those before as long as they fulfil his commands and put their trust in him (SWT).

NB. After all of the above ayat how can one vote for the kuffar or participate in their parliament?

7)To change the word of Allah (SWT)

Allah (SWT) says:

'…they want to distort the words of Allah…' [EMQ 48:15]
The way that the kuffar changed the word of Allah before, in the Torah and the Bible, they wish to distort the word of Allah (SWT) in the Qur'an. However the Qur'an is miraculous in itself and cannot be changed, Allah (SWT) promising to preserve it himself. Hence we see orientalists (those who study Islam from a Western perspective) at SOAS university and other such institutions attempting to put doubt in the minds of Muslims about the inimitability of the Qur'an and the finality of the Messenger-ship of Muhammad (saw).

8)To lead Muslims astray

Allah (SWT) says:

'…they wish to lead you astray…but they will lead only themselves astray…' [EMQ 3:69]

Hence we see the kuffar tempting Muslims with the notion of interfaith, a false cursed notion where Muslims, Christians and Jews would have one place of worship and one book, saying that 'we are all people of Abraham'. Whereas Allah (SWT) says that the Jews and Christians have no right to claim any affinity with Ibraheem, who was a monotheist and not a polytheist (believing that either Jesus or Auzair was the son of God). Moreover Ibraheem came thousands of years before the Jews and Christains and was therefore neither a Jew nor a Christian.

The attempt at interfaith is therefore no more than another attempt to corrupt Muslims and their pure faith. The steadfast Muslims will never be taken in by such plans.

9)For bad and not good to befall Muslims

Allah (SWT) says:

'…You are the ones who love them but they don't love you…and you believe in all the books…and when they meet you they say 'we believe' but when they are alone they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage…'
'…if you have something good they get upset but if some bad befalls you, they rejoice. But if you are patient and become Muttaqoun, they can't harm you…' [EMQ 3: 119 - 120]

This should be a stern lesson for those who prefer the company of kuffar to Muslims, like the MCB and CAIR (in the US). Allah (SWT) here tells us the real feelings of the kuffar who hate for the Muslims to have any good and who rejoice at the suffering and pain of the Muslims, as in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Palestine, Kashmir etc.. Rather it is only the sincere Muslims who really defend, protect and ally with Muslims, not the UN, US or UK.

THE ALMIGHTY SIGNS: AYAT UL RAHMAN
RELATED TO THE MAGNIFICENT DAY:

Many of the Almighty signs of Allah (swt) were witnessed by the people of the world on 9/11. Many of the ayat of the Qur'an were demonstrated in our life in a very spectacular way, crystal clear for all to see. In fact, since that towering day in history we see an acceleration in the already large number of people becoming Muslim day after day - one of many of the benefits and positive outcomes from 9/11, Verily it is evident that Allah (swt) guides whoever He wishes despite the extreme measures of propaganda and misinformation from the kuffar to fight against the spread of Islam. The following are a few of these Almighty Signs of Allah (swt) in relation to 9/11.
1- A SMALL PORTION OF PEOPLE DEFEATING A LARGER NUMBER
USA was not expecting to be attacked by a small portion of people, he was expecting to be hit by a nation state; however Allah (swt) says:
"How many small portions of people; with Allah's will defeat a large power?…" [EMQ 2: 249]
This was a very small number with no heavy weaponry, no jets, no tanks, no cannons, no bombers, only 19 men with knives, and they defeated them heavily. For all their boasts of civilization and high technology, they had no defense against them.
People claim that it is not a victory because 'innocent' civilians were killed, yet the US army have killed many civilians, and furthermore, Allah (swt) is the one who decides who is innocent or not, and Allah (swt) says that the Muslims are innocent, not the kuffar.
Further victory, is that from this one incident, America reviewed its entire plans and policies.
They claim that it was committed out of nationalism or racism rather than for the sake of Allah (swt), yet we find that the 19 mujahideen came from 4 different countries, they had no nationalism or tribalism between them, they were united only by Islam, Muhammad Atta was from Egypt, Jarrah from Lebanon, others from Saudi Arabia, there was no nationalistic bond between them at all.
They did not go there only because of the US foreign policy, it was not reactionary. If the motive was the US foreign policy, then that would mean that if they reviewed their foreign policy - then the jihad would stop. However, what if the motive was not that but it was because they were devoted Muslims that believed that those kuffar should be killed? What if the reason was that Muslims are in captivity in America? There are many Muslims including Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman who are imprisoned in USA. It is well known that to release Muslims from the captivity of the kuffar is one of the reasons that will necessitate (oblige) Offensive Jihad.
In the past, entire tribes and cities and nations were conquered because of one Muslim captive, in the time of Muhammad (saw), Banu Qaynuqa was expelled because they simply insulted one Muslim Woman.
The Muslims never feel down, even when faced with calamity, the Muslims are grateful to Allah (swt) and say 'Alhamdulillah' looking to what other blessings Allah (swt) left him, he will never reject or say "O Allah, what did I do to deserve this?" - that is the sign of the kafir, Munafiq.
2- ALL THEIR CALCULATIONS AND DEFENCES FAIL BECAUSE ALLAH SENDS THEM PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT THEY NEVER EXPECTED
Allah (swt) informed us about the jews, they built a large fence to defend themselves, and were arrogant:
"They thought their defenses could save them from Allah, Allah will attack them from all directions… and he strikes fear in their heart." [Hashr - 59: 2-4]
America also believes to be safe from all eventualities, because they have no neighbors to fear from, they have continental missiles, they have fighter jets, they have tanks, they have every defense and thought they had prepared for any attack. However they never thought that the 19 Mujahideen could do what they did.
Furthermore, after 9/11, they changed their plans completely, they started to condemn and attempt to distort Tawheed, Walaa wal Baraa', Da'wah and Jihad, they declared that the real enemy is the Muslims and Islam.
3- WE DO NOT KILL, ALLAH IS THE ONE WHO KILLS
Allah (swt) says:
"You did not throw when you threw, it was Allah who threw, you did not kill when you killed, it was Allah (swt) who killed." [Anfal: 17-18]
The US had calculated for planes crashing into the World Trade Centre and built it not to be affected, and yet it was completely destroyed, furthermore the building should not have fallen in the neat way that it did, and there should not have been other buildings falling with them without to get hit - as did occur on 9/11. It was none but Allah (swt) that brought down the World Trade Centre.
Allah ordered us to do the effort, and the result comes from Allah, It does not come from us nor from our own actions.
Another victory from 911 is that the American deficit rocketed down, the USA faced many other calamities from 9/11, Furthermore, many people became Muslim because of 9/11 at least 4 times more than before 9/11, that is a victory for Islam and Muslims.
USA always attacked the Muslims in our own homeland, they always saw themselves as the attackers, and the Muslims as the defensive victims, however after 9/11 they saw the Muslims as the attackers.
4- THERE ARE THOSE WHO SACRIFICE ALL FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH
Allah (swt) says:
"Among the people are those who trade his life for the sake of Allah." [EMQ 2: 207]
After 9/11, we saw someone sacrifice everything for the sake of Allah, his presidency, his land, his country, his position, his wealth, all to protect one Muslim from the Kuffar.
The kuffar offered him financial support, offered him international recognition, they offered him everything in exchange for Sheikh Usama bin Laden, and he told them to go to hell. Even on the run, they offered Mullah Omar more and more and yet he still rejected.
5- ALLAH GIVES VICTORY BY STRIKING FEAR IN THE HEART OF THE ENEMY
The kuffar were so terrified, they would never come down to fight them on the land, they continued to bomb the mountains of Afghanistan until a third of the US ammunition was used up in Afghanistan, and they spent over $68,000,000,000 in Afghanistan, they are so terrified only because of one oath made by an old man - Sheikh Usama bin Laden, in a mountain in Afghanistan.
Despite their arrogance and their boasts and all their weaponry and technology, they were brought to their knees in terror by 20 Muslims: an old man and 19 young men.
6- THAT NO-ONE CAN BE HARMED EXCEPT FOR WHAT ALLAH HAS DECREED
Allah (swt) says in the hadith Qudsi:
"If all the people gathered together to harm you, they will never harm you except what Allah (swt) has decreed, and if all the people gathered together to benefit you, they will never benefit you except for what Allah (swt) has decreed …" [Nawawis forty Hadith Qudsi]

""If all the people gathered together to harm you, they will never harm you except what Allah (swt) has decreed, and if all the people gathered together to benefit you, they will never benefit you except for what Allah (swt) has decreed …" [Nawawis forty Hadith Qudsi]
"

So that means Muslims in Afganistan were killed because Allah has decreed? Muslims in Iraq were killed because Allah wanted them to die? If so, why are the muslims so mad? They should be happy, as everything happened according to Allah's will.

Brother!
Have you not heard the hadeeth "Like the jews split into 71 sects, and the christians into 72, the muslims shull split into 73, one of only which shull be admitted to heaven"
Did not, when asked about whom this group is, the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) reply "the one who follows my sunnah and my companions?"
Brother! Have you not heard of the boundless anger Our Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) experienced when he saw the enemies dead children? Have you not heard him reply "Wether they be children of us or the enemy, the fact is that they remain children!" when a companion, puzzeled by his great anger at the death of the enemies children?
Brother! Has in not been revealed to you that when the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) saw his companions looking at a women killed during battle, he declared "Has it not been forbidin to kill women in battle?"
Brother. Have you not heard that Muhammed is the greatest Mercy, It is not mere words! It is what he displayed, and it is our duty to follow him, for who better can interprete the quraan. And if every muslim was to interpret it to his own state, a failed nation we would be. Have you not heard what he said when, after the final defensive battle against the meccans, when he went into mecca. There stood before him the lady who orderd the killing of his uncle, and the slave which commited this act. Their stood before him the person who stonned to death his daughter, have you not heard him ask the people who tortured him for 12 years "What do you think i am to do with you today". Didnt they reply "Though art noble one, son of noble one!" And the prophet Muhammed(PBUH) decalred that they are free to live, safe under the rule of the religion destined to be a mercy to mankind.
Brother, can the suffering and humiliation that muslims experience today, even be compared to that of Muhammed(pbuh)? Did he not go to taif and get stonned and beaten almost to death? Besides fleeing the city, walking several miles till safety? Did he not, when he finnaly reached under the shade of a palm tree , raise his hands to the sky and pray for those who had almost killed him?!
Brother, Did not when Muhammed(PBUH) fought the defensive battles of Badr, and uhud, and khandaq, put complete faith in Allah(swt). If one truely puts such a strong faith in Allah(swt) then does one really need to make concessions in ones dean by killing women, children, and the destruction of trees(Nature as intended)? The verse is as clear as day!
We read in Surah 2, verses 190 – 193 of the Qur’an:
*{Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. Allah does not love those who practice aggression.
This was the first verse concerning fighting, which was revealed in Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) used to fight only those who fought him, and he avoided non-combatants. It was pure self-defense after enduring oppression for years. This passage should be compared with Surah 9, verse 36:
*{… and fight against the Mushrikun (polytheists) collectively as they fight against you collectively}*

This is why Allah (swt) said:
*{And kill them wherever you come across them, and expel them from where they expelled you.}*

Allah said:
*{… but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.}*

This means: Fight for the sake of Allah and do not be transgressors such as, by committing prohibitions.

These prohibitions include:

Mutilating the dead

Theft [from captured goods]

Killing women, children and elderly people who do not participate in warfare

Killing priests and residents of houses of worship near the battlefields

Burning [or chopping] down trees

Killing animals for no real benefit
Buraydah narrated that Muhammad (pbuh) said:

“Fight for the sake of Allah and fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight, but do not steal [from the captured goods], and do not commit treachery, nor mutilate [the dead], or kill a child, or those who reside in [Jewish and Christian] houses of worship.” (Narrated in the compiled hadiths of the prophet by Imam Muslim.)
The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) has given clear instructions about the behaviour of the Muslim army. He observed:

"Set out for Jihad in the name of Allah and for the sake of Allah. Do not lay hands on the old verging on death, on women, children and babes. Do not steal anything from the booty and collect together all that falls to your lot in the battlefield and do good, for Allah loves the virtuous and the pious."

God does not forbid that you do good and make justice for those who do not fight you in the religion or drive you out from your homes. Indeed, God loves those who do justice. God only forbids your friendship with those who fight you in the religion and drive you out from your homes and back those who drive you out. And who befriends them, such are wrongdoers. - Surah al-Mumtahana verses 8-9

Abu Bakr , the first caliph or successor to Prophet Mohammed established a detailed set of rules for Islamic conduct in war. He gave these instructions to an Islamic army setting out for Syria, then still part of the Byzantine Empire:

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"

Ill stop here, there remains one verse i was not able to find for the time being, with regard to its meaning, it stated in clear language that "do not kill women,children or elderly, and do not harm any tree you come across" I apologise for not being capable of quoting the exact verse.
The last thing i qouted however, is clear enough proof. Abu Baker is the 2nd greatest muslim next to Muahmmed(PBUH) which of todays scholors can dare say that he was wrong in what he said. Id like to hightligh "NEVER" and Never i shull, and never should any muslim. "Ina Allahu maa al sabiroon" translation "Verily Allah is with the patient"
Brother! I donot ask that we not defend our selves, i ask that we live to be like Muhammed (PBUH) in every aspect. To pull verses out of context and to iterpret them to our likes is not the way ( i do not accuse you of that, i merely believe that never can anyone produce evidence that the killing of any unarmed civilian is allowed)
Brother! In the end there are many ways for one who is in a state of confussion, as to what is right or wrong, to discover what exactly Allah(swt) has ordained for us. Salat ul istikhara is the best manner i believe. Ask a sheikh how to perform it, wa salamu alykum wa rahmat ul lah wa baraqatoo

This is in reply to 'jew', who posed the following question:
"So that means Muslims in Afganistan were killed because Allah has decreed? Muslims in Iraq were killed because Allah wanted them to die? If so, why are the muslims so mad? They should be happy, as everything happened according to Allah's will."
In Islam we believe that every action is created by Allah(swt)not man. Man has free-will to do an action and he uses this to do what he wants. However when a man stabs another person, yes the action was created by Allah(swt) but it is the man who gets accounted for intending and following through with this action.
Victory in Islam is different to the western interpretation, a Muslims ultimate goal is Paradise and if this is achieved then it is 'The Victory'. Hence when Muslims die through oppression all over the world we say 'Alhamdullilah' (Praise be to Allah) and hope that they get accepted as martyrs inshaa allah.
The Muslims have been promised by Allah(swt)that Islam will conquer the whole world (including Israel and her slave USA), there is no doubt about this. The death of Communism ten years ago inaugarated by the fall of the Berlin Wall was just the antecendent that led to the death of 'Democracy' on 9/11. The collapse of the Islamic State in 1924 will return soon inshaa allah with the Shari'ah implemented in its entirety.
Muslims call to the same truth preached by all the messengers sent down by Allah(swt)- Jesus(as), Abraham(as), Moses(as) and the Final Prophet Muhammad(saw) all called the people to believe-That there is none worthy of worship to follow or obey in truth except for Allah. And verily the majority of the people rejected and persecuted them calling them madmen, extremists, terrorists you name it.
If you have any more q's, please feel free to ask. I invite all of you to Islam, come to the call of Islam.

Saiful Islam.

Mr Spenser:
As an educated, read, tolerant peron I can appreciate (even while disagreeing with) all of the comments posted. I ma soory to read above that you have considered removing the comments option. Most of what I have read seems to be thought out enough to deemed worthy of reading, even where the actual content or idea is disagreeable. Please reconsider.

Mr Spencer:
As an educated, read, tolerant peron I can appreciate (even while disagreeing with) all of the comments posted. I ma soory to read above that you have considered removing the comments option. Most of what I have read seems to be thought out enough to deemed worthy of reading, even where the actual content or idea is disagreeable. Please reconsider.

Sounds to me like Allah is a bit paranoid. Guess I've never heard of a religion that has a goal of taking over the world. Sounds like a Mike Myers movie. I'll tell you this...this has been one of the most interesting message boards I've ever seen. I feel like I'm posting with some of the most well versed individuals I've read regardless of religion. I can't say that I've ever been real "deep" into my Christian religion, but I can say this, it seems to me that even the Christian religion has attempted to adapt it's ideology to the new century. In the United States, approx. 70 percent of Americans still consider themselves Christians. Yet it seems that our government has forced the Christians to be much more accepting of all other religions. Don't get me wrong, I realize there's still way too much insensitivity to other religions and races (I'm naive but not that naive). There have been steady patterns of acceptance in our country. My question to you Ahmad and Saiful Islam is this...does the fact that the United States gives everyone equal opportunity to practice whichever religion they want, in any manner they want, make Muslim countries hate us? Or does this message of true freedom not make it to those holy lands? I have pondered issues between Islam and Christianity and I have asked a number of American Muslims questions. From my lack of knowledge of the history of Christianity and simply being an idiot in knowledge of Islam, the conclusion I come up with is that many religions share the same prophets and same historical background. And interestingly enough, many religions share the same moral beliefs. However, it seems that Islam has a hate for all other religions. Enough hate to kill other human beings. Is it possible that, other than Muslims wanting to take over the world, all religions are very closely related? And if they are, isn't it possible we aren't all headed for the same places when our time on earth is up?

TO fdr
One thing i learnt coming to live in the west is, i dont really know them till ive lived amongst them. Another thing, its not always what you think it is.
I will respond to your questions in the most appropriate order.
Firstly, if one reads History of the Islamic nation he'll come to terms with the most astonishing era of tolerance one has ever seen under the rule of a religious system. There are a great deal of examples, I will state the ones i clearly remember.
*. When Omar (The 2nd chaliphate, ruler, of the islamic empire, after the Porphet Muhammed and Abu Bakar) recieved a request of help from christians residing in palestine, he responded immediatly and sent out an army to Palestine and had, succesfully, rid them of their opprosors. There then came a peace deal, which the christian leaders within palestine till today hold. Under the ottoman rule (islamic empire = ottoman) the christians where given full independance, their churches where not harmed, thier right to prayer was not crossed, their self rule was not disrupter. In more recent centuries Muslims, christians, and jews lived together in palestine, at Peace.
*.Another example was the area which today is known as lebanon. Back in the 1800 their was a civil war between muslims and christians in that area. If this were under any christian ruller, the muslims would have been wiped out. But the ottomans, instead of wiping the christians out, it attempted to make fair peace! It succedded in doing so, it put aside the fact that the christians where fitting the muslims, the fact that the muslims were one of them, and the christians were not, and the made fair peace.
*. Spain under the ottomans. During the era under which the muslims ruled spain, the christians at that time were mass murdering jews. A jewish leader, in seaking help, sent a letter to the ottoman ruler of the time, who welcomed him into the capitol of the muslims empire, costantinpole (sorry bot the spelling), because he feared that in any other place, he would fail to protect them fully!
*. Spain under our rule was federal, because the christians wanted self rule, it was granted.
You can type palestine in your encarta search, it acknowledges that there was never a better example in history of tolerance than palestine under the ottoman rule.

So the answer to your question, regarding wether muslims hate america because it gives the right to freedom, is No. Its rediculous to think so, but i cannot blame you with people trying to make the motive of anti americanism being anti freedom!
I will come back to why Muslims are angered by america latter on.

With regard to the hate you spoke of, that islam feels towards other religions, it is wholey unfounded. Islam had come as a religion to a people with no religion. In the quraan it appears that god constantly explains his existance, and his creed, what he created man for, and how one can live his life. Religion in itself means a way of life. There are many ways of life, and islam preached simply that it is a living example as an alternative meathod to living ones life. A meathod in which which one learns to put everything into prespective, rather himself in the focus. It was meant to teach a very strong moral concept, and hence make selfless men, and wipe out greed and lust. With regard to hatting other religons, that is purely contradictive to what the whole of islam is based on! Our God commands us to believe that he sent down the other prophets, and the other religions, way of life, so how can he hate it? What appears is that god simply sent down islam to the whole world, as apposed to one nation, if you remeber in mathews the story of the cannite woman who begged that jesus heal her daughter, but jesus refused because "I came only to guide the lost sheep of israel"and told that lady "would it be write to give your families food to the dog?". I quote (not word for word, but purely meaning)"And I (Muhammed) Have not come but to confirm those scriptures from before me". So how can you hate what youve come to confirm.
With regard to war and killing, surely there is no system which limits it so greatly!
you can fight war only when
"You see a nation oppressed (irrespective of their religon, race, or culture)
*.When an army has been sent to fight you, i.e. self defence
*. When another country suppresses the free practice of islam.
Your probably asking, why the U.S.?! as to you, it dosnt seem to be doing any of the above, ill come to that in a moment.
You mentioned that islam wishes to take over the world, im telling you this, i lived amongst muslims for decades, i was taught in a "wahabi"society, but i have never heard such hopes, or goals!
What you might be confusing it with is the islamic struggle to present islam to other people, of other religions, and hence accept new brothers into the fold of islam. It is not that we want to controll the world, that would contradict out belief that we never do anything which is meant to serve our greed, but we wish to present islam to the world, and convert people to the better way of life. Ill explain what i mean by the way of life later.
*. The source of anti americanism
The usual question one may ask a fellow muslim is "so do you hate them all?" "its the damn system" would be the reply.
Americans dont realise that in almost every muslim country their is a dictator, and when their isnt, American politicians lash out on that country, accusing it of human rights, balah blah blah. But when thier is a disctator, America is not only silent, but supports them. I would like to highlight, but a few countries
*. Egypt. America is a staunch supporter of President Hussni Mubarak, he was not elected, nor is he representative of even the tiniest fraction of egyptians. He is known for imprissoning many political groups and wings, whom get sent to torture. Its more complicated than that. America usually asks, or shows happiness at the imprisonment, torture of these groups, why? Muslims fairly do anything under an islamic banner, and the opposition groups to hussni and Co. are Ikhwan Al muslimeen and Jamaha islamia, And hizb ut tahrir. They all, when found, are captured, and tortured (torture scares of others, because no one, no matter how strong a determination, wants to get tortured).
Another bunch are Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Yemen, Pakistan, etc... All have dictators supported by america, when people see their people oppressed they become anti american.
The fact america has military bases within our countries is another source of anger, it hurts their pride, it makes them feel subject to what they dislike most.
Another reason is Americas support for israel. Let me get you uptodate with the civian (not militant) death figure for the whole of 2003, 652 people, including 100+ children, thats almost 2 a day. Americans know increibly little about what their ally israel does. The number of houses demolished went into the hundreds, and the number of mosques into the dozens. You have a population of 5 million palestineans almost all the time living under curfews and 80% are unemployed. You have a project wich captures an aditional 12 % of whats left of palestine, and what angers us the most thing, is the fact that at every attack we make, ( which happens every few months now) america calles us terrorists! even with the second last bombing wich targeted soldiers!?! and when israel killed 8 the other day, not a peep came out, and when they kill everyday, not a peep, and it completely whitewashes israel. It is fustrating beyond words, it makes a person boil with anger at America or atleast the system. Theirs far more, and its more or less imposible to fully understand as long as you put it parrallel to what your media says (if anyone watches Fox news with approval in his head, he deserves to be shot, err... not litrally)
One last point, the fact america gives freedom of religion is one thing that is pritty damn good, cant you see muslims protesting at the ban of the veil in france?

Muslims in living in Christian countries enjoy much more religious freedom than that of Christians living in Muslim countries.

In USA, if a Muslim propagates Islam, nobody tells him anything. However, in middle eastern countries, if a Christian propagates Christianity, he is punishable by death!

peace.
bin laden did not cause 911. bush Sr. and former cia subjects fired by Carter did. with help from Jewish Massad. The planes were remote controlled: check www.whatreallyhappened.com. That is why Bush Sr. was in the pentagon staring down Tenet right after 911.

10% of egypt are christians. they have been protected by the muslims for 1400 years: no persecution, no discrimination, and no inquisition even during the damn crusades when a yellow horde journeyed tousands of kilometers into someone else's land to kill their women and children.
Spain was 80% muslim at its yet unmatched golden age. when the neighboring christians raided, they murdered hundreds of thousands of men women and babies.

Save yourself, cut the chain of generational ignorance and bigotry. Become a muslim.

Jew-
It is easy to assume that would happen, but should you show me any wide scale proof, id be convinced. I can however state much proof otherwise
Jordan- Jordanians freely practice christianity, dont you see pictures of people being baptized in the river of jordan
Palestine- Look at bethelham, or Yasser arafats visits to to the church on christmas (hate the guy though)
Egypt, they range between 8-11 million, that more than 10% Najib ;)
Iraq- Its a member of the council now!
Syria & Lebanon: In lebanon the leader is christian, and 40-50% are christian, in syria their are vast numbers too
They arnt persecuted, touched, but we live like brothers. I can say that on a personal basis.
In U.S.A. muslims are oppressed. America has more or less one of the worst records of tolerance. In theory there is equality, in practive America has a sick record, wether it goes back to the native indians, or to slavery, or to the current degrading of Black rights by people, on a purely person to person basis. Only to look at what happened in the 2000 votes is enough. Jeb Bush (govener of florida) passed a law which consequently banned 60% of all blacks to vote! (90% of whom would have votes for the democrates) You have the patriot act, and other acts which gives the government the right to hold any information it wished about you, and to arrest and hold you without trial or without the right to a lawyer. Muslims have frequently complained at FBI breaking into homes, and arresting people without any proof. Theirs just so much to talk about on the subject of racism and intolerance being high in The U.S.A. Best you ask someone whos American of African origin, im sure theyll have al lot to tell you!
On the contrary, Islam has abolished slavory! (From the closest to the prophet were People of african decent, and islam has made it compolsory for each country to have a house of money, with 3% devoted to the buying, and setting free of slaves (buy to set free) The Imam (leader of prayer) of the muslims was black, the Commander of the Army was black, the 2nd to him was Black, the prophet never kept a slave, and when he married his wife, he set her slave free. He bought slaves so that he could free them inturn)
As for racism, thier is a hadeeth, where the prophet declared that "One people should not insult/degrade/disaproove of another people, for they may be better than them in the sight of god" That is a aproximate translation, what it means is that regardless of who you are, or who anyone else is, you should not compare yourself in either a boastfull or degrading manner to the either, such as "I am better because i come from so and so..."
As for tolerance Jew, certainly throughout history it was the muslims who welcomed the jews into their homes, and the christians who persecuted! (Most recent example is hitlers belief he was killing jews to serve Jesus's purpose) I do know that it is not the chritian belief to blame, certainly if that was the case, we too would hold the blame, but it was the deviated moral values they adopted as apposed to the high moral values we accepted.

(http://jews-for-allah.org/messianic-jews/christianhistorywithjews/speeches.htm)

Ahmad-
1. Hitler was not a Christian. He was a pagan and persecuted Christian, Jews, and everyone else to serve his purpose.
2. No religious group is persecuted in the United States. People are free to practice their religion or not. It is a guaranteed in our Constitution because in previous centuries tyrants imposed their religions on our ancestors, much like you are trying to do today. Muslims may practice their religion, but they may not IMPOSE their beliefs and practices upon anyone else. Muslims may propagate their faith without fear of reprisal. But imposing one’s faith and punishing those that don’t share this faith is not appropriate in America.Thus instituting shariah law in the United States would IMPOSE a religious system upon other religions and would not be permitted because shariah is INTOLERANT.
3. Thank you very much for the invitation to Islam. However, I am very content with my own religion which I believe to be the truth. I find it arrogant of you to insist that I either receive your religion, submit to your system, or die. Christianity invites and our clerics do not preach death to non-believers. Those who become Christians and then decide to leave the faith will not be punished or killed, a penalty that your religion inflicts.
4. It is amazing that Mohamed was able to locate and keep all those scribes with him, night and day, to write down his words and every activity. Modern-day executives would love to know how he did it so that they could do the same!
5. Islam has not abolished slavery. Islamic slavers are collecting and selling unfortunate captives at this very moment, and shipping them all over the world.
6. PERHAPS Islam does not have racism, but you do have dhimmitude, which makes SECOND CLASS CITIZENS out of those that are not Muslims.
7. During the Islam in Spain, Christians and Jews were allowed to practice their religions as dhimmis. That is not tolerance, that’s an imposition.
8. The Crusades were started because the Seljuk Turks changed the rules regarding access to the Holy City of Jerusalem and Palestine and were threatening Constantinople.
9. Muslims are imposing the veil on non Muslims in France and threatening non-muslim women with violence IF THEY DON’T wear the veil. That is not tolerance.
10. Christians are being kidnapped, murdered, and forced to convert to Islam in Muslim countries. That is not peace or tolerance.
11. Your clerics preach hatred, death, violence, and mayham. That is not tolerance. Christian clerics preach peace.
12. Politics do not belong in religion. Stop the bombing and better things will happen. America will leave Islamic countries when peace comes, but will not be forced out through violence.
13. Israel and other countries have their own agendas and must work out problems on their own. America can suggest and apply pressure, but in the end, it is the decisions of the people living there that will out.
14. Humiliation? Should you be complaining about humiliation? Muslims have humbled millions of people over the centuries. It is unfortunate that you feel this way. Perhaps when this is all over, you will understand how YOUR victims felt and you will develop true tolerance, but I doubt it as your Koran advocates the humiliation of others.
15. God expects us to treat each others well. “Do unto others as you would do unto yourself” is the Biblical ideal of Christianity. Dhimmitude, stoning, flogging, amputations, and so on are examples of not others well, or as you would want to be treated.. Human rights are not supported. If they were, none of these things nor forced conversions, nor treatment of women as second-class citizens, etc. would be acceptable. As it is, these behaviors are required! Thus, Islam is not tolerant.
16. God Bless the United States of America and please bring peace and good will to the world, but not peace any cost.

If we arrange the major world religion based on violence (in ascending order), we can find the following:

1) Buddhism (least violent)

2) Christianity (almost as much as peaceful as Buddhism)

3) Islam (most violent)

Robert Spencer wrote:

"If the US withdrew from Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow, and every citizen of Israel moved to Idaho, there would still be radical Muslims waging jihad against Jews and Christians in an effort to establish the Islamic state."

Somehow it's hard to imagine suicide bombers in Pocatello.

epq,
1.Should you have visted the link, or read the hundreds of extracts from his book, mein kamph, youd of understood he's persecution of jews was motivated by his christian backround, if you remeber he had a deal made with the church to allow it practice, and that wasnt the case for any other religious group, to whom he showed complete intolerance.
2. As i said, everything in the U.S.A. is in theory. Muslims are harrased, they are FRORCED to delete passages from their books, what they teach to their children is monitored, and if they dislike it, censored. The black community within America is often accepted far less in Universities, in job applications, and their schools are underfunded. They recieve less social securtiy benifits on accounts that they use the benifits for guns/drugs. Also the idea of muslims wishing to impose Sharia in The u.s.a is rediculous, wholly unfounded, form of propaganda.
3. An invitation is the calling to islam by the war of ideas, not the war of swords and guns! Where in history did knowlegable muslims put a gun to other people head threatining "Accept islam or die!". On the other hand the quraan states "their is no force/compulsion in joining islam"(La kurh fi deen). You talk about muslims doing such, but you just have to open your television and see how America has gone to war to force its ideology on iraq! Didnt America go with one of the pretence reasons being that it wanted to give iraq a democracy (that is a gun pointed saying, you either become a democracy, or we invade) And isnt it America which threatens iran to abandon its islamic state to conform to America's ideals (keeping in mind the majority of iranians are happy with the islamic system, not the government)? Isnt it America which imposes sanctions on any country that opposes its way? So again, it is not islam which proves itself intolerant, yet it is those who call them selves christian conservatives (i.e. Bush and co.)
4. Apparently no.4 is somthing straight from your head, he never recorded the quraan on paper, he had it all memorised, for he wouldnt write!
5. Tell me, which region 1400 years ago had laws against slavery? Which region had money dedicated to the buying, and hence freeing of slaves? Tell me, which religion spoke of slavery with disgust! It amazes me how an American can look at what weve done with dissatisfaction, ignoring that his own country never abolished it untill they were at gunpoint, faced with a civil war. It also amazes me how someone who comes from a country, widely accepted as being coulour racist has lost so much dignity that he may speek of our record unbeaten with regard to the abolishment of slavery! You make up lies about muslims traficking slaves, its truely pathetic you have to go to such extents to prove who has done good in this world, who has not? You make a joke of yourself, not me!
6. Do you know that when you live in America and you donot have an american nationality, then you do not recieve social care, nor are you entitled to various rights, simply because you are not American? Now if you filter the non americans again there are different levels, there are the allies who have more rights (e.g. europe, japan), and the friendly nations (china) then nations where you can freely kick back home, without a reason (sierra lione). Dhimi is not even a word used by the muslims. Under the islamic chaliphate there were nations who at various times came to us and asked for protection (we had a policy of protecting the week when they asked), in return we would ask 2.5% of every citizen of that countries money, if he earned over what is calculated as 4000$. They were not entitled to the rights of our citezens, naturally, they were entitled to their own governments rights policy. As for those who lived under us, then its a fact they had the rights of the muslims! The right to bear arms, the right to work where they please, the right to own land, do not just make up stuff! get me facts! You complain of you record of jews and christians living under spain?! Why do you think they came?! The jews came to escape massacures under the christians, and the christians came becuase they were oppressed by their own pope, who declared that they had no right to knowledge, and their literature and books where burnt! We do you a favour, and you spit in our faces, then you complain we showed no hospitality!
8. The crusades were started before islam was born, what are you talking about?!
9. Totally made up! Are you kidding me?! Where the hell did you get that from, i beg you get proof of that! fact, when other viewers see you had to lie to prove your point, and i didnt, their more likly to take interest in my argument, its trustable! The fact is the govenment in france is secular, it see's the huge growth of muslims inrolerable, it wants to ban it because it see's the viel (which has become popular with our women) as a threat to secularism.
10. More lies? proof?
11. And i quote southern baptist minister of the U.S.A. "Evangelist Anis Shorrosh*,“I am one of
thousands of Christians who every Friday night fast and pray for the fall of Islam.” He said the
United States should call all U.S. citizens back to America and drop atomic bombs on the
capitals of several countries in the Middle East
I see the tolerance your preachers preach!But what is wrong with preaching war against an invader, it complies with geneva convention, but you name it what you wish because you cannot stand the flow of people willing to fight you, its within the imperalists blood.
11. You see, we never started any bombing, who dropped the first bomb in the iraq war? who even started it, what about aphganistan. Ok, fine, pree sept11. Why bomb sudan? Why give 6 Billion $ to israel in ARMS every year, the israelies are fighting a population with no ammunition, let alone guns. Why give them money when for 30 years palestineans remained oppressed and occupied, without a peep from the international community, then you shout terrorist when they decided to rise up against israel? (and its leader, who started the current war, and ordered the killing of 1500 people in a refugee camp, regardless of them being men, woman, children!) Will America truely leave iraq and aphganistan without the gun. You see, they attacked iraq because they had no problem with aphganistan, it is considered by prominent american politicians that america is knee deep in mud in iraq, and they cannot venture further into iran or syria without iraqies halting their resistance. America only understands the gun, we begged they stop supporting our dictators for years, but aslong as these dictators pumped money into the american economy, aslong as their was no disrupted flow in the oil to america(which youd probably have been caused without political stability in iraq, hence they left saddam in power) they just ignored us!
14. Look at what the crusades did, they were cannibuls, they ate their enemies, the butchered their own people, they reduced the jewish population to thousands, they showed no mercy to others, there were no rights given to citizens, the pope held everything in his power, you had to give up anything the pope demanded, it was mad, not even the most rightwing christians today defend it when they discover it?! Again, open encarta, open a history book on islam (not the internet, it has little good) you will always find wrighters praising the tolerance! And the black community within America's strongest campaigners of freedom were muslim (malcom x)

Amputations is the result of the work of american supported dictators. Flogging is the punishment equivelent to american prison for 15 years, flogging takes 5 minutes. Stonning is prescribed in the bible, except it isnt limited to humans, but to dogs and bulls. I could say that hence christianity is far less tolerant, but the best witness is history, not words or written scriptures. Certainly history favours islam in every instance, in every case. I personally do not have a problem with christianity, for it comes from the same god, and the quraan declared "And i have not come but to confirm that scriptures from before" (bible, torah) I cant quote jesus "i have not come to put peace in your hands, but swords" And swords he did, if only it were for the purpose jesus intended, we wouldnt have witnessed massacure over massacure in the christian history. Nor would we have seen, what Mediact organisation estimated to be, up to 50000 dead iraqies, nor would we have seen dictators in all the musim countries.
16.God will show peace in the world, when people become selfless, when leaders support the worthy of support, not because he gives them wealth or support, but because he makes the best of everything for everyone. Wa salam alaykum!

A question to Ahmadn (and to historians):

How many people did Jesus Christ kill in his life? How many women did Jesus Christ rape in his life?

On the other hand, how many people did prophet Mohammed kill in his life? How many women (including under aged) did Mohammed rape?

The answer will depict which religion is violent and how much!!!

Answer to jew:
How many did either kill: 0
How many did either rape: 0
What did both preach? : The same thing (Ive Read mathews and luke, im onto john, the laws are the same, the meathods are different, the stories have the same foundation, but different atmospheres)
Its rather extreme you even ask of a prophet who raped?! How many followers would a raping prophet have? Muhammed was the only one of the Prophets who lived to see the people accept the true faith in hordes. He started of for 4 years with less than 20 followers. Heavily persecuted and tortured. But the whenever the enemy came into contact with the prophet, his faith never ceased to amaze, not one of them. You talk about a man who eliminated Adultry across vast areas of the world, how then would he set the example by raping. Its purely hate of anything called Islam.

Massacre of the Banu-Qurayza
Date: April-May 627 A.D.
Place: Medinah
Victims: The Last Jewish Tribe left in Medinah The Banu-Qurayza.

By this time, Mohammad had murdered or driven out all of the Jewish Tribes of Medinah, except the Banu Qurayza. It was time to eliminate this last thorn in his flesh. The Banu Qurayza had been reluctant in helping Mohammad against the Quraysh. Conveniently once again, Mohammad claimed that he had divine knowledge about a conspiracy by the Banu-Qurayza to kill him. He beseiged their fortress for Twenty-Five days. When the starving Tribe surrendered, Mohammad forced an old man from their own Tribe to pronounce Mohammad's sentence. The sentence was death to every male member of the Tribe, Slavery for every woman and child and Plunder of all their property.

The Prophet had an immense trench dug around the main market of Medinah. The men of the Banu Qurayza were rounded up & their hands twisted tightly behind them. Then one by one, they were shoved to the edge of the trench and forced to kneel. They were offered a last chance to convert to "The True Faith" and if they refused, had their heads chopped off by Ali the cruel executioneer. As soon as one head would roll off, the corpse would be kicked into the ditch, and so it went. By the time Dawn had colored the sky red in Medinah, hundreds of corpses piled up in a heap in a tangled cesspool of blood, hair and shreds of flesh. Despite the horrific end in front of their eyes, none of the Jews chose to convert to Islam and faced death valiantly. The blood of 900 innocent Jews stained Mohammad's hands on that black day.

Their only crime was that they chose to retain their fundamental human right, of choosing their own God and the religion of their ancestors. Hysterical women & children screamed as they watched their fathers, husbands & sons die. The majority of them were raped savagely and then bundled off to be sold as "used goods". The Prophet had the husband of the Jewess Raihana Bint Amr hacked to pieces before her very eyes, hours after he had murdered her father. No doubt this was the Prophet's perverted version of a wedding present, because after these atrocities he raped the mortified girl and tried to force her to convert to Islam. Muslim historians still describe the savage rape of Raihana Bint Amr as her "willing submission to Islam and wifehood to the Prophet".

Apparently according to them it is very natural to imagine that a woman who has just seen her husband, father, brothers and Tribe slaughtered violently before her very eyes, would CHOOSE to convert to the religion of the murderer and marry him! In actual fact Raihana REFUSED to convert to Islam and also refused to marry Mohammad the murderer of her family. He kept her as a lowly concubine all his life. So much for the "Apostle of Peace" and his unbounded RESPECT for women. Mohammad was nothing but a serial rapist, who acquired his victims by killing their families first.

Allah as usual has provided yet another timeless Divine revelation which gives his Prophet the Right to rape and torture women of other religions.

[an-Nisa' 4:24]
"And all married women are forbidden unto
you EXCEPT those captives whom your right
hand possesses. It is a decree of Allah for
you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those
mentioned, so that you seek them with your
wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery..."

In short Allah the All Merciful is saying "Hey Muslims, it's a crime to go after married women, but IF they happen to be your captives (which obviously all the non-Muslim women were) feel free to indulge yourself in rape and sexual torture of them. "lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned" Allah is making it LEGAL for Muslims to go ahead and rape Non-Muslim women by Divine Law!

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/mohammad3.html

The story you presented is madly exagerated and edited. First i will strart in the true order of events. The daughter of the tribe leader of banu qurayza came to her father, the tribesman, and declared that she had a dream that the moon sank into her lap. Her father had slapped her saying "do you plan on marrying Muhammed?!". Befor the battle of khandaq (battle of the ditch) there were 2 battle, in each the meccans had secretly used one of the jewish tribes to gain tactical, and military information. In the battle of badr the tribe accused ADMITTED (the muslims were far too small in number to kick them out) The medinites wanted death to be your fate, but when they approched Muhammed, he asked they leave to another close by location. They did. In the battle of Uhud, the same thing happened. In the battle of khandaq the last of three jewish tribes, banu qurayza, had opened a gateway resulting in the deaths of many. Then one of their men had, by fact, assaulted a medinite women. An outraged medinite had in turn attacked the jew, but was killed. The prophet sent a notice to the jewish tribe that they must restrain them selves, or they would have brocken the peace treaty in existance. The jewish tribe refused the proposal, and IT declared war on Muhammed (pbuh). The prophet had besieged their fortress. After they surrendered due to lack of supplies, they declared surrender. The jews had told Muhammed that they would surender on one condition, that their former ally (now a muslim) would destine their fate. Muhammed had in mind that they be sent away to the location of the 2 other tribes. They excepected a far less punishment at the hands of their former ally. It was HE not Muhammed, who ordered their men be killed, their women enslaved. The prophet Muhammed refused to watch this even take place. If Muhammed truely disliked it, then why did he let it happen? When a muslim escaped from makkah after being tortured, he fled for medinah, the prophet Muhammed told him "Be patient, you must go back! I have an agreement with the meccans!" the agreement had one condition being that any meccan who fled makkah, must be returned. The prophet always stuck to his agreements, wether they hurt him or his enemies. The immence trench you spoke of was dug for the arrival of 24000 meccan troops, they were only 3000 muslims. As for the wife, please note, she asked that she see Muhammed, she told him her dream, she asked that he marry her. If she was not married on her on will, why then did she become from the greatest woman of islam, who taught other woman islam, who narrated the prophets saying after his death? Rahina (raah) was, ironically, from the 5 greatest muslim woman. Again, internet is never the place to get the honest stories from. That link is rediculously twisted, ofcourse it is! Every one is anti muslim, and needs to make a case for it, since they cant find one, they make one up.
The verse you quoted was completely edited?!
i opened my quraan, and the translation
(al nisa- 24) Also (prohibeted are) women already married, except those whom your right hand posses. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitations) against you: Except for these, all others are lawfull, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property, desiring chastity, not fornification. Give them dowrery for the enjoyment uo have.
As for captives, you may seek them in marriage, but they first must agree. Rape is when you force someone to have a sexual experience with you. Marriage is not rape, and it is not forced. Again, their is only condemnation of rape in Islam, In the U.S.A, the "chrsitian"country, a women is raped every 6 minutes, one of the highest figures in the world. If a man rapes in a mauslim country, his punishemnt is death.

There are always two versions of a war history. One is written by the winner, other is written by the sufferer (in this case the Jewish tribe).

"Apologists of Islam still insist on perpetuating the myth of an Islam which accorded equality to her non-Muslim subjects, they talk of a time when all the various religious communities lived in perfect harmony in the Islamic lands. The same apologists minimize, or even excuse, the persecution, the discrimination, the forced conversions, the massacres, the destruction of the churches, synagogues, fire temples and other places of worship. This rosy but totally false picture of Islam is also built up by

(1) ignoring the destruction and the massacres during the actual process of the Arab conquests;

(2) by concentrating almost exclusively on the fate of Jews and Christians, and consequently dismissing the fate of idolaters (are they not human?), Zoroastrians, Hindus and Buddhists

(3) by relying on Muslim sources, as though they are bound to be less biased!

(4) by ignoring, or excusing the appalling behaviour of the Prophet towards the Jews;

(5) by ignoring the intolerant, hostile, anti- Jewish, anti-Christian, and above all, anti-pagan sentiments expressed in the Koran which were the source of much intolerant, fanatical and violent behaviour throughout the history of Islam against all non-Muslims."

http://www.secularislam.org/jihad/subjects.htm

"In the Islamic history, more than 80% of the texts are filled with Holy War (Jihad). Early Islam was spread in the Arabian Peninsula solely by holy wars (Jihad). Islam was propagated as a religion by series of wars/battles –both defensive as well as Offensive. As many as 78 historic battles were fought by the Prophet Muhammad himself. And out of 78, only one (battle of ditch) was defensive war, and the rest were simply offensive wars. Did Muslim soldiers go to Syria, Iran, and Egypt to fight defensive war? "

http://www.secularislam.org/jihad/exegesis.htm

"Prophet Mohammed and his successors initiated series of offensive wars against pagan Arabs, Jews, Christians, etc., to spread or to impose Islam by force as well as to seize the abundance (booty) of these lands. However, it was quite possible that there had been some small numbers of conversions by sheer greatness of Prophet himself or due to some other miracles. Nevertheless, a great majority was converted by force, and people of Arabia did not have freedom to choose. After Prophet Muhammad gained enough might in his force while in Medina, the tradition was to send an invitation of Islam to various Arab Tribes or countries. First, an invitation to pagans to accept Islam, then war against those who refuse to accept Islam."

http://www.secularislam.org/jihad/exegesis.htm

Jew-
The Prophet Muhammeds relation with the jewish tribes was tense at first. We saw how they were asked to leave by the Medinites. What i forgot to mention was the relationship that formed after the Mecca fell into the hands of muslims. You constantly choose very anti muslims links, and i repeat, the internet is not the way to learn about any religion. There were excellent relations with the christian country of abyssinia, and its leader who later embraced islam willfully. There were also good relation with other jewish tribes (the jewish tribes wouldnt get along with each other)
1* You brought no proof, just the quotes of some anti muslim person. For one, islam has laws against destroying and ransacking what muslim armies come across. Abu bakar, as i mentioned in an earlier post, when going to syria had 10 orders given to all his troops, one of them he declared in it "you will come across some religious monks, leave them alone and donot touch their places of worship" The quraan has laws, too. But then again, i can imagine how people who's aim is to study another religion in the worst light would respond to any of it.
2. You, or the person whom you quoted, has not read the quraan?! The main stories you will come across in the quraan is on idolators! There are surahs, such as al bakara, which talks about the jews, but christianity, if you read mathews or luke, focuses ONLY on jews.
3. One American comentator for Times had stated that muslims were very straightforward in claiming their aims and views. Muslims do have that habbit of declaring things as they are, but to tell me that an anti muslim source is likely to be less exagerated, that is unreasonable.
4. The behaviour was good, even if you take the killing of abu qurayza's men to be true, that cannot in anyway disfigure the general good attitude Muhammed had to the jews, particularly the ones out of Medinah (He had problems with the ones in medinah because the jews were the most influential, all that was threatened by Muhammads popularity)
5. Sounds like no.5 contradicts no.3
See their is a problem here, the quraan is not anit anything. It came down from god, and from any prespective, it was meant in that manner. When a creator simply declares that jews did wrong, that he will punish them, then that is not anti semitism. Its wrong usage of english to call it anti semitism. Even the word anti semitism cannot be applied to arabs, we are semites, are we anit our selves?
Prophet Muhammed never witnessed more than 10 battles, that includes skirmishes.
80% of texts, the whole quraan has only one chapter of 114 which describes jihad. Again, extremely exagerated. As for defensive wars
what about badr (1000 meccans camped out madinah)
battle of uhud (3000 camped at uhud)
There were so few battles anyhow, but these two are all i can remember by name. And even with 2 extra it disporves your anti muslim liar.
Islam, as i explained before, has no record of being forced.
Being a jew, i take it you support/are israeli?
Israel is a country which came into existance when thousands of jews moved to arab lands, put a gun at the head of its owners, and conquered it. Israel has massacures which muslims cant even start comparing to. I recall the 20000 people in one village killed, as well as every home in that village was bulldozed. What about jenin, 2002? Care to look at the sattelite photo were more that 50% of the houses in a modern day city were bulldozed, many with the occupants still inside. Why? Because they refused to surrender to 30 years of israeli occupation and oppression.

I believe strongly in religious dialogue, on the emphasis of whats similar between My religon and predecessors, not the constant pointing of fingers, then complainging about wars errupting amongst each other.
That is what brings about peace and understanding, not militaries, or bombs. Whenever the war of words clashed with the war of arms, history is witness, the war of words won.

Rape is not reported by media in Muslim countries does not mean that rape does not happen in Muslim countries.

What happens (based on Sharia Law) to a male rapist in Muslim countries?

"Adult males generally, but not always get a pass, as if nobody witnesses the act as rape (4 male witnesses required) it is generally ipso facto considered the woman's fault and she alone is guilty of adultery.

Here is an example:

2002-MAR: Nigeria: Safiya Hussaini, 33, was convicted of adultery. She was sentenced to be buried up to her neck in sand and to be stoned to death. However, her sentence was deferred until her 13-month-old daughter has finished nursing. She appealed her conviction. Her cousin, a Mr. Abubakar allegedly confessed to police that he had sex with her three times. However, the judge dismissed the testimony of the three policemen who witnessed Abubakar's confession, because a minimum of four witnesses are required under Sharia law. Hussaini's lawyers claimed that she also could not be convicted because of the four witness rule. The prosecution argued that witnesses were not required in her case; adultery had obviously taken place because she had become pregnant. Her defense team finally argued that, under Islamic law, the interval between conception and birth can be up to seven years! Only two years previous to the birth of her daughter, she was still married to her husband. The lawyers argued that her husband could possibly have been the father. Commenting on the conviction, Aliyu Abubakar Sanyinna, the attorney general of Sokoto State, said: "Society is injured by her act. The danger is that it will teach other women to do the same thing." 9 Mansur Ibrahim Said, Dean of the Law Faculty at Dakar University in Sokoto said that adultery is "an abomination abhorred by God and society because of the example it gives and because it creates bastards to be rejected by society."

However, once in a great while, a man admits fault, has enough witnesses arrayed against him, and gets punished. Here are two examples

2002-JUN: Nigeria: A Sharai court convicted a man, Yunusa Rafin Chiwaya, of adultery in the northern state of Bauchi, and sentenced him to be stoned to death. He had confessed to engaging in sexual activities with his neighbor's wife, and had declined multiple opportunities to withdraw his confession. The woman in the case was cleared after she swore on the Qur'an that she had been hypnotized before she left home with Chiwaya.

2002-AUG-25: Nigeria: he Upper Sharia court in the northern state of Niger has sentenced two people to be stoned to death. Ahmadu Ibrahim, 32, and his lover Fatima Usman had confessed to pre-marital sex. They have 30 days in which to appeal the sentence.

Note, there is a "confession" by the male in each case. However, the burden of proof is on the woman to show she is not guilty. For the man, he either must be caught in the act (the 4 man rule) or confess outright with sufficient witnesses, and not recant his testimony.

*(cites are from http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_adul1.htm)

Nice legal system, eh?"

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1060360/posts

"Before westerners assault Islam, lets look at their statistics. The number of women raped, abused and discarded.

Yes women are raped and abused also in the West, but this number is at least 100 times more in Islamic countries. When a woman is raped in the West the rapist will be prosecuted severely. In Islamic countries women who are raped become a shame to their families and often are murdered by their own relatives to restore the honor of the family. In Islamic countries women are also raped by their own close relatives like their brothers and fathers. But they are afraid to speak about it because they know this would mean death for them.

In the West some men abuse their wives. But the law is on the side of the battered women and there are shelters and protections for them as well as restrictions and punishment for the abusive husband. In Islamic countries women have no right whatsoever. They can be beaten by their husbands and they cannot even seek divorce. The Husband can re-marry to a younger woman and abandon his older wife abusing her emotionally, sexually (by avoiding to sleep with her as he has now a younger woman), verbally and even physically. These are all Allah given rights of men ( Q.4:34)"
http://rationalthinking.humanists.net/faq4.htm#41

Again, the information I am reading on both sides of this issue is astounding. What I am seeing is that the individuals posting are taking the same verses from Holy books and enterpreting them in their own way. Over hundreds, even thousands of years, I'm sure every part of the Bible and Qoran have been interpreted in different ways. That's just the way it is. From the outside looking in, it seems to me religion, as a whole, is supposed to be peaceful. Every God is supposed to be a peaceful God. At least that's what everyone is saying. If everyone is saying this, why has religion killed so many people? Or is religion the real reason for all the killing? Jew, Ahmad, forgive me for this but I'm going to play "Devils advocate" on both of you...don't both religions have a history of murder, pillaging, rape, conquer? Both religions, at one point in time, have tried to force themselves on other cultures. And they may still be doing this today on a much smaller scale. Ahmad, I have some questions I have been wanting to ask, if you reply, please do so with personal feeling and not quotes from the Qoran...1)do you really think the bulk of the hatred towards Americans stems from our military presence in Arab countries? 2)Does this presence cause concern that the U.S. is someday going to use military force again in order to "conquer" that country? 3)When civilians make terror strikes for political or religious reasons, do they do this because they have no faith in their government to speak their feelings for them?
I do need to respond to your reply on the fact that the US is hated because of it's stand on Israel. You talk about the curfews and the killing that's happening in Palestine, yet the same horrible things were happening in Iraq...rape, killing, and a dictator (which was something you said we supported). Yet, since the day we purged Iraq of this monster we have been under scrutiny from every part of the globe. I agree, the Iraq situation happened partly because the US helped it happen way back when. But a "in the long run" humanitarian good deed was done in Iraq. People died that fought for the dictator and unfortunately in war civilians did also. But "in the long run" many lives have been saved as a result of the riddance of the dictator.
I come from the "small town" and "middle of nowhere" part of America and we scratch our heads at all the terrible killing that goes on in the world, including what's happening between the Palestinians and Israelis. I consider myself very fortunate to have come across a website that is so informative, yet very controversial. Those that have posted to this site are very knowledgeable and that is greatly appreciated. Maybe my lack of knowledge is what tells me none of the fighting and killing makes any sense.

P.S. Yes I am a conservative Christian, but I view the world on a humanitarian scale. When it comes to human life, fairness, and equality, you won't get a Bible passage from me. You'll get my true feelings and how they relate to our world today. At least as long as my lack of knowledge and naivity don't get in the way.
:)
Peace to all of you.

TERRORISM IS PART OF ISLAM [www.muhajiroun.com]

First and foremost i invite all of you to Islam, to testify that there is none worthy of worship to follow or obey in truth except for Allah(swt) and accept Muhammad(saw) as His last and final messenger.

It must be stated that there is not a single 'Islamic country' in the world today: Yemen, Saudi arabia, Iran, Sudan, Nigeria all legislate a law that is not from Allah(swt). At present all the leaders of these muslim countries are apostates and are as much of a target of the mujahideen as are the american, british and other occupying forces within the muslim lands. One of the biggest obligations of all muslims today is to uproot these puppet rulers and implement the Shari'ah in its entirety. The actual Islamic State fell 80 years ago at the hands of foreign forces in an agreement known as the 'sykes-picot'.

Unfortunately it has to be addressed that these apostate rulers eg: King Fahd of Saudi Arabia, Perves Musharraf of Pakistan, are conjuring the public into believing that their rule is 'islamic' and hence have injected some laws that resemble the shari'ah but are infact far from it. For example the cutting of the hand of the thief: Under the Islamic state this would be executed however under strict conditions (7)-if a man stole out of sheer hunger, if he was not mature, if he was insane, if the item stolen was below a certain price...the hand would not be cut [Under the 1300 year rule of the islamic state only 300 hands were cut]. The stoning of the adulterer requires four witnesses who were present at the act, both men and women are liable with no bias on either. Hence if people are not provided their basic necessities such as food, clothing and shelter which would be provided by the State the punishment for stealing for example cannot be completed.

[Jew] "When a woman is raped in the West the rapist will be prosecuted severely"- The punishments in the west are treated very lightly, often rapists are let go if they're rich enough and have the right lawyers; at most they are given a few years in prison and are then released; if prosecution was severe then the statistics would show a decrease in re-offenders, present findings do not correlate to this. It is not surprising to find similar situations in countries such as Pakistan or Bangladesh where the law of Allah(swt) ie. Shari'ah is not implemented. Under Islam all of this corruption would be obliterated, Islam deals with these dialemmas by going directly to their root for example domestic violence which, is often caused by debts or alcohol related problems - Islam offers free food, clothing and shelter as your right, does not deal with interest based loans and if you are unable to pay off your debt the state will provide the necessary capital for you; alcohol would be completely removed. Last year in the UK over 1200 people died through drunken driving; over 5 billion pounds were spent on drug rehabs; 1 in 4 homes suffer from domestic violence; a rape occurs every twenty minutes; in America every 2 minutes.

When the Taleban ruled afghanistan they called all women to cover, this was seen as oppression by the west. Yet when they were under attack by America after 9/11 and forced to flee the women still covered as is evident today . In America muslim women cover up in their thousands, is it right for me to arrest George Bush for oppressing them?

[freaky deaky religion] "What I am seeing is that the individuals posting are taking the same verses from Holy books and interpreting them in their own way"
Scholars in Islam that deal with the Sciences of the Koran and extract laws that can be applied today always refer to the understanding of the Scholars of the past who took their understanding from the Prophet(saw) himself and His Companions (His students). The english translation of the koran today is a transformation of the text into a poor translation that can easily be misinterpreted hence verification has to be made by the relevant Scholars. Ibn Taymiyyah, Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab are both good examples.

Every action that we as Muslims do, are purely for the sake Allah(swt) and humanitarian emotions do not coincide. We as Muslims look to the world and know that their had to be a designer to create this world we see today but if we start defining this designer and attributing characteristics that do not belong to him we will stray. If i want to know the truth about someone the best person to describe that person is himself. Hence Muslims go directly to Allah(swt) and submit to Him fully without associating anything with him and reject all other ideas or ways of life as a pre requisite. Verily Allah(swt) says "Could it be that you may love something that could be bad for you and hate something that could be good for you?"

Jihad is a sensitive issue and there are many types, one type forbids killing women, trees and crops and another type permits it as long as the conditions are met. 9/11 was a magnificent day in history and inshaa' allah will not be the last.

Anything good that you have read in this postup is all from Islam any mistakes are from me.

[If you have any q's, feel free to ask, the website above is excellent, i advise all of you to visit it. www.muhajiroun.com]

Come to the call of Islam, learn about Islam,

Saiful Islam.

jew, abu bara has everything i needed to say.
FDR, what abu bara said is true. Most of the actual interprtations are authentic, and date back over 1000 years. Within islam their are a number of books. You have the quraan primarily, we as muslums believe that the quraan is the exact words of god delivered to Muhammed (p.b.u.h) throught angel Gabriel. There were no tablets and such, Muhammed had the whole quraan learnt of by heart. We believe that whenever it was revieled to him, hw would repeat it over and over again so that he would not foget it. The quraan can range between 600-2000 pages. It has no scripture from before, i.e. does not include the old or new testemeants, its completely new.
You then have the "hadeeth"books (their are around 12 volumes of these) These are recorded saying of the prophet, which have degrees of authenticity atributed to them. They are said by the prophet, but the prophet spoke from the knoweldge, as we believe, god gave him. There are several 10's of thousands of hadeeth. When interpreting the quraan one usually goes to hadeeth, or the compiling done by scholors in the past, such as what abu bara mentioned, Ibn taymiyah (im not aware of wahab, he is rather modern, and within wahabism there are a few misconceptions i cannot agree with from an islamic point of view)
In answer to your questions.
1. Not the bulk of it, but a part of it. When people count the number of things Americans have done to them, the more they add, the angrier they get. The military presence in Saudi was fueling great hatred. Because the military base was in the land of the 2 holiest sites in islam, and the prophet muhammed ordered than no army be allowed in the arabian peninsula.
2. This military precence was used in the past to attack nearby countries, e.g. iraq was attacked through saudi bases in 1998, and in the current war, through kuwaiti bases
3. When you saw 9/11,it was done not because we want to impose sharia (somthing rediculous robert spenser is fretting about) but because people feel that their is no way out of oppression than through stiking at the heart of the problem, America. How can we topple leaders in over 40 of our countries, when America supports them? How can we stop the bloodshed of palestineans when america supplies israels weapons for free? How can we restore the islamic chaliphate where we were independant, democratized, and free to be who we are, when america wont allow that? When aljazeera reported during the iraq war, america bombed its headqurters as well as abu dhabi tv headqurters, now they had the iraqi governing council shut them down, as well as al arabia. We see that with America in iraq, its nothing but more opression. I can understand that you believe that the humanitarian issue will become better, but there is more than just humanitarian aid we want, its freedom, dignity, pride, we need independance, and religion. The iraqi pride is being hurt by american occupation, as is their independance. Just because the situation is better than under saddam, dosnt mean people will settle with it. You must also realise iraqies consider America an enemy. The number of people who celbrated saddams downfall was pathetic, not because they didnt want saddam to go, but because another enemy came instead! Also iraqies saw that America was the reason it suffered at saddams hands, and they saw how america ignored the mass killings after the gulf war. They just wont welcome america with open hands, americas actions are fueling Jihad, not some bearded guy who appears occasionaly on tv. The root of the problem is america, not some islamic texts (btw when i say america, i mean the government, or the power system. If a leader in America opposes the jewish likud, he is poised to loose the next election. What kind of democracy allows small groups and corporations to choose and remove leaders, this is a serious problem for americans. Maybe when they realise it will be on the same edge, fighting for independence both ways)
Abu bara- you never replied to my post, how is sept 11 justified in islam? I set out examples showing you that it is not justified, and i up till today have never found ANY evidence suggesting it was. If i let my anger at what americans have done to us, yes i would be delighted at the sight, but once i decided i was to look at it purely from an islamic view, i could not support it.

Thanks for the insight Ahmad and Abu Bara. But questions still remain in my head as to why any innocent civilian, beit Muslim or Christian or anyone else in between, has to die for this cause. When a terrorist attacks, whether the American feels this is Al Queda or Muslims feel this is the American Army, innocent people die. Not just people who hate the other people, but people who have stood up against these causes. When the U.S. army kills civilians, usually it's intent is to take out the opposing military and innocent people become victims as a result of this. But when Al Queda runs airplanes into buildings that have very little correlation to our military, it's sole purpose is to kill innocent people. That's the difference I see between our nations right now. There are so many more Muslim states right now, why don't they concentrate on our military more if the government is truly the source of hate? I see it happen in Iraq on a very, very small scale. But according to what we hear on every single news channel (not just Fox News)this is coming from lingering Saddam loyalists. Another question just came to mind...I remember something being said that when another country does not have a dictator America lashes out.
American people vote our rulers in and if there was ever a plot by a president to "lash out" at countries that support some form of democracy that allows the people to vote, the American people would be screaming for a change of leadership. I realize people in Muslim countries right now don't hold President Bush in very high regard right now. But they need to remember that he came into presidency shortly before the U.S. was attacked on our own soil. Any Muslim country would have reacted the same way. Feelings of pain, anguish, and anger. The U.S. was very hurt and angry at that time, and the responsibilities of the president include protecting our country. So it seems he is trying to do just that. Abu Bara, if you truly feel that 9/11 was justified, and you support it, I really hope you are posting from another country. I shudder at the thought that there are people living in my homeland that want to see destruction and death happen to my people (and I'm sure there is). However, Abu Bara, I still appreciate the insight you have provided on this site and I hope for more from you and Ahmad.

Yet another question came to mind...how do individuals from Al Queda, or Hamas or other such groups view the average American? Do they think of us as arrogant? Hopefully they know that very few of us really think like infidel#11 in the early posts on this site. Man...talk about extreme.

Good day.

Well, it depends how you look on it. I think that uptill now im not convinced Osama Bin Ladin was directly linked to sept.11 I believe it may have been folowers. My main reasons for that is his denial a month later to Al-jazzerah reporter (later imprisoned for such reasons) And because someone had to fake a tape, where even in it, he does not admit to being the planer of the attack. He does however mention the names of people. Another thing about the tape, incorrect translations, blurry image, and unaudiable sound, the idea of recording such a tape, the quality in contrast to other tapes. Why cant anyone show evidence. Sometimes it seems evident tp people, but i cant understand how, if their is no proof? But just for the sake of dealing with people, we assume he did. I said earlier on i do not support it, and hence i cannot be put within the same shell as Osama. Nor can all Muslims. You too apparently believe their is a current clash between out 2 civalisations. But within the clash, their are smaller clashes. There are good U.S. Soldiers, as their are bad ones (in their intent on who to fight, what is a legitimate target, what not) And within our fighters, the same. Robert Spencer gave a link to a video showing Americans shooting to death an iraqi civilian, then chearing, going on further to saying it was "awesome, lets do it again" But then comes a few major differences. For one Osama has enrolled fighters of his like, they all think the same, so they all endorse each others views. There is no Leadership over their army, except their general. There are no people to prevent their acts, to vote for their stay or leave, etc. America has a presidency (one falling into dictatorship) people can still limit the powers of the president (though media is actually the one limiting the peoples choices). Also America has allies it depends on, ones who at the sight of the order of killing civilians, may cut of their support for America. If you take vietnam for example, Soldiers were ordered to go out and kill anyone, be it man, woman child, etc... Because Vietnam had no allies which could cut relations, coperation , etc... with america. But through 3 different presidencies, not one controlled the killing of civilians. The word of protestors within America were ignored. How about the 6 Billion aid to israel. All of which goes to the oppression, occupation, killing of palestinean civilians. You have 4 Million - 5 Million palestineans under siege, living in one big prison. You have 40-50% Of the population living under the poverty line. Almost 70% unemployed. Israel has laws allowing torture, or as they put it "Moderate Physical Pressure". Then again, i point out what i spoke of earlier, the oppression and torture carried out by American supprted, british imposed, dictators. In Saudi Arabia, for example, 500 Muslim sheikhs were arrested for "Extremist preaching". On release they complain of torture. One talked about "roasting secions" where they would be wipped for long periods of time. Or raping by prison gaurds. There are notorious prisons that carry out these forms of torture to please American leaders and politicians (ironicly, American Media occasionaly bash Saudi Dictatorship)
The fact Your Media (Watching Fox news, and believing it to be a balanced, honost source of news is rediculous. They dont generate propoganda, they generate Lies. I quote one, they said that "France wishes to send troops to iraq, to defend saddam from the Americans" Actually the news that day was france wished to send troops to iraq to back the inspectors, you see what i mean by lieing?) Says that the ones attacking American troops is rediculous. How many supporters would Saddam have, the best to judge on this are Arabs, and Iraqies themselves. I cant think of an Arab who dosnt redicule these lies. American leadership would obviously say such, because they dont want Americans to believe that iraqi people dont wish their precense, yet most of the protests, and the largest so far, have been protests by followers of the Ayatollah (shia cleric) who is notoriously anti saddam. They protest for Americas leave at times, and democracy (in the islamic sence) at other times. Little note to Robert spencer, your statement on Dhimmi and other islamic laws as only being supported by some Extreme fundamentalists is wrong, rather by ordinary people, the protests in iraq are proof enough. I would also like to see real proof of insighting oppression in islamic scripture, i could show you al lot in your countries patriot acts and constitutions.
FDR, if every muslim reacted the way America did, you would propbably find no America. The Number of people killed in Palestine since 2000 is equivilant to that of sept 11. The number killed in iraq (mediact estimates 20-50 thousand civilian deaths ) by passes the sept 11 so many times. The number hurt as a result of american diplomacy, military... Not to be counted, fear of size. I dont tell you this to tell you your evil, rather im trying to get Americans to look at their darker side, and simply curb American forign policy. That is the only way to end our clash of civalisations. Another note to Robert spencer. You based your belief, that if America pulled its troops out, didnt support israel, people would still wish it harm. Tell me, why isnt the same case with Belgium? Switzerland? Japan? Mexico? Brazil? When we had a chaliphate, did such attacks happen? No... Your simply islamaphobic. The people who are good "moderate"muslims in your eyes, unfortunately count for a very small percentage, your anti the rest, that is very islamaphobic.
People within the Muslim countries i lived in wish our own people similar death and destruction for their own benifit, i only feel one thing, the urge to argue, and disprove these people, using words.
Well there is no average Hamas, or al qaeda. Honestly i know, like everone on this planet, know very little about alqaeda, so little it makes me wonder if they even exist. As for hamas, well then im sure i can comment on that. When people in palestine celebrated Sept 11, they did so because they saw it as a sign of victory, a sign that America is not invincible. Im sure it wasnt because 3000 civilians died, but it may have been that they wished revenge, as any human does, for their own loss ( just like america wished revenge afetr sept 11). Others saw it as a blow to American economy ( the nasdaq used to be in the 4000 mark, last year it fell below 1100) Their are many reasons. As for the people, i can generally split the arab/muslim point of view into two commen cases. One being the belief that Americans are not responsible for their countries actions, that they have nothing to do with our suffering, and that they exempt from any blam. Another believes that America is a democracy, and hence the people have full control. That their views and opinions result in our suffering and deaths. The first wish the fall of the capitalist system within america, and power falling from the hands of influential groups (likud which can kick out any president it wishes) and have the power to fall into the hands of the public. They wish for some sort of underatanding to rise between the two nations. The later wishes destruction of the American power, be it political, economical, militaristic. They believe that to be the only way out of the current mess. Hamas has 2 sides two, and i greatly believe most are the first. Palestineans in general are moderate (in the islamic field, not robert spencers one). Muslims as a whole think like that, but to be happy about sept 11 was an unavoidable thing for many. I do remember speeking with colegues who described excitment of what initially seemed to be like a huge wave of attacks on America. Some of them cheered the act, others said they were excited, but has condenmend it becuase of islamic beliefs. Generally Sheikhs have to stay queit on politics fear of leaders. But their were some who condemned. I never, to date, have seen one applaud it, except one sheikh in london (who, when younger, was an alcholic, and dancer, pritty damn corrupt in the eyes of the average muslim, though i am not the one to judge what is within his heart)
Im glad i could be of service to anyone, with regard to informing others of my point of view on such issues.

The blast in Iraq today killed a lot of people...innocent civilians...killed by fellow Iraqi's. My guess is that many Muslims will beleive that this was Americas fault also. These situations are what cause all the questions to come up for me. We are doing things we feel are going to help other countries...countries that probably don't feel they need help because they have been oppressed for so many years they don't really know how good they can be. Yet when an attack such as today occurs, America is to blame. I'm curious what show you saw that accused France of wanting to go and fight for the Iraqi's. I watch Fox News pretty much every day and I truly don't recall anyone ever saying that. In fact, I watch a lot of CNN and I still didn't see anything of this matter. But I could very well have missed it if it was spoken for only a minute. You say that if the Muslim countries would react the way America reacted we would see no America. Not quite sure what you meant by that. As far as France, Germany, and Russia goes, well they are no better countries than the US is as far is interests in Iraq. In fact they were contributing arms and other such materials for oil money. Yes, there were plenty of Americans that were as guilty as well, I admit that. That's why I say "no better". There's no doubt that America is going to capitalize on the oil once the country has stabilized. Another question...do the surrounding Arab countries feel that the region will stabilize also now that there is no threat, beit immediate or long term from Iraq? I truly hope for peace and I don't necessarily feel that waging small wars against every country we feel is harboring terrorists is really the answer. But Americans feel they have been attacked and are being threatened by a group of people that have made it very clear that their mission in life is to kill as many Americans as they can. Thus, our government is going about the only way they really know how to protect their citizens, both Christians, and American Muslims. I beleive what you say about Palestinians, I can understand why they feel the way they do. I often question why we do what we do in Israel. According to "our religion" we must defend that country. I don't think that providing arms to keep Palestinians in a holding field is what that means. What we are doing there is not "doing unto others" so to speak. Thanks again for the honest replies Ahmad. I hope my inquisitions aren't becoming too boring or tidious. I'm just extremely curious about the "goings on" in those parts of the world. Good day.

There is no way France would fight for Saddam. One think I hate is people who lie. And you know that is a lie. France couldn't defend themselves against Germany and needed the U.S. to prevent France from becoming Germany :-). I say this with all respect to France as I am just making a point. But there is no way, France would ever consider this. This is just school boy "I heard" and "I saw" on CNN or wherever. You should be embarrassed by that comment.

This is in response to Freaky Deaky Religion's question.

"But when Al Queda runs airplanes into buildings that have very little correlation to our military, it's sole purpose is to kill innocent people. That's the difference I see between our nations right now. There are so many more Muslim states right now, why don't they concentrate on our military more if the government is truly the source of hate? I see it happen in Iraq on a very, very small scale."

Freaky Deaky Religion, please read the article (I pasted the link below). This will give some reasons why muslim states and terrorists target innocent civillians sometimes.

Article Title: "The Modern Islamic Army"
http://hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/koran6.html

Thanks for the information Jew. A very interesting side of the story. Although this is written as an op-ed piece it does contain some interesting facts. Facts that are frankly quite scary. I do remember seeing several businesses owned by Muslims being shut down in the US due to being caught sending money to terrorist groups. I have another question Ahmad...due to the fact that terrorism lurks within the United States and the fact that we are at a "sort of" war with a certain sect of radical muslims, isn't it understandable that the United States government has to have some "racial profiling" in order to protect the citizens? We know for a fact that there are groups in the United States that are training for some sort of attack here. I can see why it would be frustrating to a point, but the fact of the matter here is that we were attacked by Muslim men and it's very obvious that we are not the most well liked country in the Arabian nations. Ahmad, what is your take on this article and what the Quran has to say about what's happening with Saudi Arabia. I have always had a suspician about Saudi Arabia considering this is where the majority of the 9/11 terrorists were from. Didn't we also help Osama fight the Russians? I was always under the impression that Osama was out for revenge against our government for pulling the weapons we had been giving him and his gorrilas. Was the military act in Afghanistan considered an act of defense for that country against a radical group? If so...will Afghanistan start coming after the US according to the Quran? Shouldn't Kuwait have been attacking us after the Gulf War? Why haven't Muslims in the god knows how many other countries the US has defended started attacking the US? Good lord...Jew, you've only given me more questions to ask. Thanks though, sincerely, for the insight.

FDR-
The blast in iraqs, now tolling up to 100 people, was done by unidentified people. From my prespective the articles suggesting that Al-qaeda, or its members, wish to destabalise Iraq by starting of a sunni shite conflict is the silliest thing to come out of The administration for a while. Civil War will only keep American troops in. I beleieve thats the administration trying to spark of a war that will grow to the entire muslim world. What weapon could cause so much destruction, like a civil war between shites and sunnies? And the attacks on kurdish militant parties, etc... I strongly believe its not a muslim, or arab behind the attack. In the end, i do not know who it is, neither does anyone else, except those who ordered it. I do remeber fox news saying that, im pritty sure they did. Fox news is usually described as being extremely biased, and creating unbased reports. I remember a conference in which a reporter had asked the person giving the conference "fox news said so and so, is it ture?" and he replied" i havnt heard anything of the sort" What i meant about the "there would be no america" was that if for every 2700 or so muslims died, we would invade 2 states, at that rate their would be no states. I was trying to point out that America reacted in a way, such that anyone seen as a threat should be killed. I think if America addressed the root of the problem, it would have saved al lot of lives, and earned respect. The war in iraq and aphganistan killed 10's of thousands, far far more civilians than in sept 11. Im not found of other countries, but its besides stealing our oil that makes us truely angry, its stealing our freedom, dignity. When America gave Saddam his chemicals which he then used to gas thousands of iranians and iraqies, that mad us mad. When America suppoted him, it oppressed the iraqies. When they kept him in power after desert storm, they did so only because they wanted to keep stability, it wouldnt afect oil prices and other economical conditions for America, they did so knowing how many people would suffer at his hands after that. Truely, when osama attacked, he did so because we were not only under a threat, but under war and oppression, but that dosnt mean that killing civilians is still ok? About your religion bit, it all depends on whether your a conservativ or liberal, wether your catholic or protestand, greek orthadox or roman catholic. Liberal catholics for example would think very differently to you. Muslims quiet often regard Americas wars as modern day crusades, because bush is a conservative. It gives, as i believe, chrisitianity a bad name, but people will always misuse religious slogans.
Jew-
I have seen rediculous "facts" and "figures" before, but this one tops the list. For one, it was the egyptians who formed the first covert group, the fedayeen. They attacked random targets, and they eventually split up from the governemnt. Yasser Arafat formed the PLO and recieved HELP from syria. Syria didnt make his group. The actuall groups that are known to attack civilians are neither, they are hamas, found in the 1980, and eiz il deen il qassam. The part about islam requiring a muslim army to destory the enemy after peace, too is wholly unfounded. It is merely one islamaphobic persons mouth spilling out rubbish. I can write some things from the quraan, in their meaning, and not their actuall form. I challange you to get me a verse which states that muslims shoud destroy those whom they are at peace with. I challenge you to produce an example of a country under islamic(i.e. clerical and sharia) rule that did that? "And if ye go to battle, then offer peace first, If they accept it then stop, make a true, and transgess not the limits, god loveth not the transgressor" But up till now, whenever i disproove you, and ask you questions that you cannot answer, you search for another islamaphopic article and post is. And every time it is more rediculous than the first. Filled with lies, because the truth is islam has morals judaism could never live up to. Judaism has the most harsh laws, jews in general suffered from anti semitism because anyone who wasnt one of them was discluded. He was out of the circle of judaism, hence he automatically becomes 2nd class. Whenever you came to power, you butchered and oppressed. And i can easily point out israel. You complained of dhimmi, but that was 2nd class citizen, if you live in palestine and arnt jew, you become last class animal. You get butchered, your homes demolished, your schools turned into army camps, your livly hood detroyed. If islam is truely what you try to convince others it is, then why refer to lies about it, truely the truth of it should have what you talk about in it!
FDR-
If you look at the site, ill point out one other thing that proves it wrong. If you recall, who know the formation of al qaeda? NO ONE. But that site gave you figures of % of saudis in alqaeda etc... proof enough?
Well about racial profiling, if someone did that to the americans, lets say in saudi, americans would get very sore. Because these americans have nothing to do with anything, like the majority of muslims in america dont. out of several thousand people, 6 were found to have terrorist links, yet america wishes to send all the thousands back home, to basiclly kick them out?!
No osama isnt out for reveng, he's pissed because american troops were in saudi arabia, and that happened long after he was allies with america. Remeber, he got cross with america after gulf war?
The quraan says nothing of the sort, im sure, cause ive read it thousands of times, its just jew being islamaphobic. Muslims seem to be attacking america from all over the world. The worse the condition gets, the more attacks. Once america tries to invade saudi, i assure you the world will break out in WWIII. you have many indonesian groups, philipin groups, pakistani, aphgan, saudi, palestinean, egyptian, eyrian, iraq, iranaian, yemini, sudani, algerian groups, and many more. They only need to be made real pissed of, more than even now. Id hate to see that though, i think if someone very liberal came to power in USA, someone who didnt bow down to everything greed corporations, and millionares wanted. Some one whod put the power where it belongs, with the people, not the jewish lobby. Im happy to answer more questions. You wont get many such chances :) Thanks for the interest fdr

Unless the Arab nations had enough nukes to wipe out our entire military, WWIII would be a slaughter. I'm afraid Americans would not be the ones being slaughtered. Until China and Russia decided there were too many far less military advanced muslims being slaughtered by our Navy and Air Force along with Israels Air Force and other countries the only thing that would stop the US is a full scale nuclear war. That is what scares me the most. I don't mean to get into a "my dad is tougher than your dad" match here, but if terrorism continues and only grows worse, the US will find out what countries are harboring these terrorist and the US will take care of business...no matter what kind of president is in office. If someone very liberal comes into office in the US, I fear for our country as the last very liberal president we had let far too many illegal immigrants into our country and basically caused more foreign problems by paying off countries every time they threatened they were going to make a nuclear bomb. I'm very thankful that we have a president in office that will not enable countries like North Korea to bully us like that. As far as Osama's history is concerned, the following link tells most of the story.
http://www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=23&L1=10&L2=70&L3=10&L4=0&L5=0

So, essentially the whole terrorism thing began as a result of the US providing radical muslims with weapons to fight against the USSR. Osama first became pissed off when the Saudi royal family decided to let the US fight a battle that Osama thought his radicals should take on. Don't see that as reason to be mad at the US. After all, we were invited. As far as who's to blame, yes it started right around the Bush Sr. era. The fact that Bush sent troops in to liberate Kuwait and pulled them out leaving a lot of Iraqi's wondering why we didn't "finish the job" so to speak, or get rid of Saddam. Well, that was never Bush Sr.'s intention. We were simply to liberate Kuwait and nothing more, this was the UN policy on that war. It was Clinton that started the Anti-terrorism act that cut Bin Laden off from his money. And if you really look at the timeline of the bombings that Clinton ordered, they were during significant times in his administration, times that he was under very, very heavy scrutiny. Many believe the bombings were to draw attention away from the scandals being investigated during those times. What is too bad is the fact that the United States has a president that cares so much for all people in this country and has to deal with all the b.s. that has happened dating all the way back to the Nixon era if not sooner. The United States was founded on true freedom. Not just the freedom to be a specific religion, which according to the questions I have asked and responses I have gotten from several people is what Arab Muslims believe to be freedom. But the freedom to practice any religion and practice it any way we want. We have the freedom to become rich or be middle class. We have the freedom to vote or not to vote. And when we vote we have the freedom to choose who to vote for without being scrutinized. We have the right to speak out against our government without having to fear for our lives. These are true freedoms, not chosen freedoms. These are the reason millions upon millions of people are trying to get into our country any way they can. Because the country they live in doesn't have these freedoms. These freedoms have made our country the greatest country in the history of this earth. Do you honestly believe the blasts in Iraq could have been caused by our very own? That kind of conspiracy theorism coming from you kind of surprises me. I thought you were somewhat partial to the radicals, but to think the United States would actually kill a bunch of innocent Iraq civilians is ludicrous.

I'm going to close my posts by saying this...the media in the US is hugely biased, you're very correct there. But it is not conservatively biased. For many, many years it was almost a pre-requisite to be democrat in order to be a journalist. Fox News is a very fair program, I have seen them attack Bush on many occasions. You'll find (if you'd actually sit down and watch) that journalist from NPR, as well as liberal attorneys report on the Fox News Channel. When the liberal media reports on something in the mid-east, you know they aren't slanting things. Thus, when a bomb goes off in Iraq and is reported that it was done by extremists, you can bet your ass it was probably done by extremists. I've never been big on conspiracy theories. If we can't trust our media or our government then why do we live in this country? Again, thank you Ahmad for teaching me more about how Muslims truly think. I now believe that many Muslims think Americans (for the most part) are liars. Especially if they are conservative. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am a conservative christian. I don't wish ill will or death upon anyone that does not wish it upon me...and I don't wish it upon most of those that do wish it upon me. I have no desire to force my religion upon another person and I usually don't speak of it unless I feel the other person feels comfortable talking about it. This is how the mojority of Americans think, contrary to what radical Muslims believe. I feel what you and I have done, Ahmad, is what our communities need to do more of. Ask a lot of questions and give honest answers, regardless of whether it's the answers we want to hear. And we must understand that we have different beliefs and be tolerant to those beliefs. Too many times do we criticise those that don't think the way we do. I wish peace to you, Ahmad, and I will pray that somehow, the differences between our communities can be resolved.

FDR- For one, what i meant was not an all out war with any country, what i meant was that if we killed the amount of people the U.S. did for every 2700 of ours dead, there would be no Americans. As far as im concerned Israel has a pathetic army, they lost in the face of 500 Hizbollah fighters. I dont wish to get in the sort of argument where each person tries to make his side seem stronger, etc, and none can predict the fate during such a war, god forbid it happen on the scale you described. No one is harboring terrorists, but people that resist American invasions, and other forms of oppression etc.. Regardless of who it is, aslong as its fighting an American ally of america, it becomes terrorist. That is the best form of pressure one could apply to supress the rights that geneva recognizes. Attacks on U.S. troops, whomever does them, is not terrorism. Its legitimate resistance to expel an invader. You are thankfull that your leaders do what they do to stop other countries from "bullying" the u.s. Shouldnt muslim countries refer to such tactics in stopping america from doing the same to us? As for al-qaeda, then i think the best source to understand him is the articles which wholly quote what he said. That is were i derived my conclussion from. Also, he's anger is the same as that of many arabs, i dont think that islamists believe in revenge, thats not the islamic way of thinking, rather the nationalistic way of thinking. There was nothing radical about osama, just an ordinary muslim who fought of the russians. Even in one of his interviews he declares proudly that when russians killed aphgani civilians, he never resorted to doing the same. That and his denial of anything to do with terrorism, but the US takes it that muslims are liars, anyone with ideas of resistance are radical terrorsits. Its all propaganda, and falls on deaf ears in the muslim world. But it works well with Americans. There is nothing called "true freedom". Freedom is based on one cultures definition of freedom. "True freedom" would mean to be totally free, with no obligations towards society, and nothing to limit your movement and actions. That certainly dosnt exist in the U.S.A. but their are different forms of the smae standard of freedom. I.e. freedom with a certain set of rules, in one society the government being the one to apply it, in another the people being the ones to apply, or to be specific, demand/influence it. America is much more towards the first one, while muslim countries the latter. In America the ones who have the power are the rich. Voting is corrupt where 60% of all blacks in florida lost their vote because jeb bush had placed biased laws which left people who 90% were liberal, out of the voting (60% out). To say that the united states was founded on true freedom is being very nationalistic. If that was true, then why the slave trade untill the last century? Why the segregation of people depending on their colour? Why the continuing oppression of minority groups? The reason people try to immigrate to the u.s.a started from WWII where america suffered least, its economy was above all other countries. It generated huge employment opportunities, with good wages, and reasonable conditions. France, U.K. have the same freedoms, Belgium, a society with one of the worlds best freedoms, dosnt attract anybody? That leads me to conclude that, no, americas "freedom" is not what people are after. Also, as for the consiparisies, they are two way, americans conspire that it was alqaeda, in everything alqaeda gets shuved in, i hope people notice that. I could point out that America killed up too 50000 civilians in iraq, 30000 in aphganistan, will 100 more make a difference? Also take vietnam for example, Americans did kill civilans intentionally. And japan, the 2 nukes? They were on citiesm that was 100 000 (vietnam is 600000 - 2 million). Its just what people choose to believe or not, and how many want to believe that evil runs within their own society, but then again, different people and nations have different standards of evil. Muslims believe the media lies, and the government lies. Certainly the government does lie, the americans liberals declare that themselves! Im glad this discussion is actually getting somwhere with you fdr (please note that politics usually tends to be 2 brick walls shouting out at each other, walls cant hear though, we do)

Thanks for clarifying Ahmad, I still wasn't quite sure what you meant, but I understand you were simply doing the math. If I'm not mistaken, terrorists attack people in a "non-war" setting. Such as the people of 9/11. I don't think people attacking a military is a form of terrorism unless it is done in a "non-war" setting. Have the terrorists officially declared war on the US military? I suppose they could have. Have the terrorists declared war against US and US loving civilians? If so, I thought it was our government they hated. Countries that knowingly allow people that terrorize other people to live without scrutiny in a "non-war" setting are harboring terrorists. There is a "war" setting in Iraq, so I don't consider what is happening to the American soldiers acts of terrorism. Ahmad, the fact that the US was allowed to come into these Arab nations, doesn't mean we "bullied" our way in. We requested to have bases in these countries and they accepted. It was a two way street. With the exception of Iraq of course. But it was because of Iraq (which I admit we created years ago) that some of these countries wanted our presence. If the people of these countries don't want us there, why don't they go after their own government to show that they don't support this? When I read your posts I sense that people in Saudi, Egypt, etc...don't want us there. But the dictatorship has allowed us to be there. Why not get rid of the dictatorship. I suppose it's because the US military won't allow it. We are protecting the dictator. So if people show that they don't like the current dictator, the dictator punishes them somehow. Hopefully, I'm getting the picture right here. You are right, Ahmad, I should not have used "true freedom". But, the United States offers more freedoms to it's citizens than any other country in the world. Capitalism is what made this country so powerful. People in the United States are willing to fight for the country, not a religion, because of such freedoms. Yes, slave trading happened, true there is still racism and some oppression left in America. But haven't you noticed how minority groups are starting to have their way in just about anything they want? Note I said starting. We are starting to see things like schools requiring students to read the Quran before coming to class. What? They can't have a Bible or pray, yet it is required to read the Quran? Taxpayers land is being taken over too. Lutherans can't put the ten commandments up but Jews can put their symbols up? This is a disturbing trend in America right now. My point is, we had slavery but our freedom is what gives us the sense and the courage to fight against it. We are able to make strides. As far as immigration goes, WWII was over 50 years ago. The world has changed...a lot. The US provides anyone of any race or color the opportunity to come and try succeed at anything they want. Whether it's start their own business, which the government will actually give money for them to do, or simply go to college and get a degree. Our government also forks out boatloads of cash to those that are financially strapped and are struggling to make a living. If you don't believe it's freedom the immigrants are after? Go ask the Cubans on the boats outside of Florida why they risk their lives just to get to our country. Ask the Mexicans why they cross the boarder in hoards. They don't have a "land of opportunity" like we have here in the US.

Let's talk about the conspiracies. Your "civilian" death toll is way too high. Do the research on this one. Even the Arab news claims just a little more than 10,000 civilians killed. As far as military, that's another story, but that's part of war. Again, I don't like the fact that the Iraqi civilians had to die. You say we killed Vietnam civilians. Can you tell me why? It's because we didn't know who the enemy was. That was a stupid war anyways and we never should have been there. Japan, did you forget who was attacked first? Remember Pearl Harbor? Our government was just fine with staying out of WWII until Japan decided to "awaken a sleeping giant". I concede, some journalists tend to stretch the truth, and there have been administrations that have lied to the country. But Americans eventually find out the truth and learn by the wrongdoings of past administrations. Thanks for the dialogue Ahmad, it's been a great learning experience. You have provided great insight as to why things are happening in the Middle-East. Hopefully, I have convinced you that even "Conservative Christians" have compassionate hearts and feel bad when people have to die as a result of some religion or ideology. Again, we are not all like Infidel#11...thank God.
Good day.

Wow Ahmad, just as I was starting to listen to some of your content in trying to understand the Muslim world, your comment "Voting is corrupt where 60% of all blacks in florida lost their vote because jeb bush had placed biased laws which left people who 90% were liberal, out of the voting (60% out)". You sir are a propaganda eater. If you really buy that, you need help. Open your mind! See the light! I don't know where you are getting your information, but I suggest changing the media as to which your mind is becoming brainwashed. What surprises me about you and FDR's comments, is FDR seems willing to confess some things but you continue to seem so rightous or should I say "holier than thou". Sorry, I normally don't post to message boards. But you need help. By the way, I'm sure you have an interesting conspiracy theory as to how Jeb got elected in Florida in such a liberal state! Sheeeeees, give me a break!

fdrfan,

That is how fundamentalist Muslims brainwash a rationally thinking person. I think poor John Walker Lindh was brainwashed by a "holier than thou".

I hope that FDR will not get brainwashed and start thinking that 9/11 is justified.

Don't worry Jew, I'm still mad as hell at what happened on 9/11. That's why I ask so many questions. I can't understand how anyone can think killing innocent civilians solves any of the world's problems. Ahmads post in the beginning sounded as though he may be a "voice of reason" from the Muslim perspective. He did answer many of my questions (thanks Ahmad). But he made himself sound more and more radical as I asked more questions. I honestly don't think Ahmad feels 9/11 was justified or supported it. I simply think he has a good feeling for why the Muslim community rejoiced the horrific act. He has good insight as to why the Muslim community has grown to hate the "American way of life". The one thing about Ahmad is that he himself has fallen into the propaganda trap. I believe he is one that communicates with those in the Arab nations and hears the propaganda straight from them. He then talks to people in the states (left wingers) and listens to only the news stations he wants to and takes his facts only from the resources that feel the same way he does. Ahmad, the one thing that surprised me on this post is that you have very few questions for me as to why I feel the way I do. This is always the case even when I talk to American Muslim friends. Why is that? I attribute it somewhat to arrogance. Why doesn't the Muslim community want to know anything about the American heritage? Or why we think and do the things we think and do? Ahmad, start asking questions to people who DON'T think like you. Much like I did with you. This is the best way to find the truth. As far as the posts go...your time has run out...I have no more time for this site as my questions have been answered. Jew, Ahmad, rather than trying to prove to each other whose religion is better or who raped and murdered more, try learn something about each other.

Peace to you all.

Ahmad did have some good points, which Americans should think about. Such as "If a leader in America opposes the jewish likud, he is poised to loose the next election. What kind of democracy allows small groups and corporations to choose and remove leaders, this is a serious problem for americans."

Also, I think Americans should be more aware about what is going on in the rest of the world, spend more time learning more about other cultures.

Muslim world should also learn about freedom (religious and others) and human rights which exist in western countries that the Muslims in west enjoy, but they deny to the non Muslims living in Islamic countries.

Fdr-
For one the meaning of terrorism is not stable, different people tend to think of in different ways. Though the word whould actually come from the verb terorrise, i.e. to instill fear into people, regardless who or what they are. There are other meanings. For example media, and more and more the standard people, take terrorism to be the killing of innocents. Other dictionaries describe it to being the act of using violence to put pressure on governments. I personally hate to use the word because of the way its being manipulated by people todays. Everyone seems to shout out "terrorists!" at the other. So i cant really argue wether A or B is a terrorist. The main problem i have with this is when the word terrorism is translated into other languages, i.e. Arabic where terrorism would be "Irhab" which to the arab speeking mind, means the act of scaring, just a bit stronger than the word scare. This seems very normal to the arab who would take it to be legitamit. When you have people who say "whats wrong with terrorism?" these people understand the arabic equivelent of the word "terrorism" When another arab see's fellow arabs endorse Irhab, they take it to mean the english standard. They inturn take it to be ok to kill civilians. I think this case happens over and over again. When you came into saudi and others, the American government had to place enormous pressure. And American governments know VERY well that we arnt happy with the bases, but as long as they can get out governments to shut us up, and it serves their interests, they ignore is. This builds up resent and anger. You got the perfect picture with regard to the dictators shutting us up when we protest. I suggest you read about the last attempted protest in saudi. Or the ones that ended in every person arrested when they protested the war. Its oppression, and thats meant to be against American standards. But what im trying to point out is what the government, corrupt people who manipulate people for their personal interests, do. And how politicians, who's profession is one of mastering lies, endorse the corrupt government, realising the mutual benifits. Freedom is relative to the people, the culrure, and the standards. No one can take theirs to be the best freedom, whats important is the people who wish to attain their standard of freedom, attain it. Im not really sure if you cant read a bible and all, but surely its your people who do that, not mine. I find it rather funny and rediculous. Imigration happens everywhere, were money fllows, imigrants do to. Ill take Saudi Arabia for an example. That place, in a span of 2 years, saw a huge change in demograpgic figures. Now the largest sect of cheap labour has gone to foriengers, pakistanies, bangladashies,hindies, and afganistanies. But i doubt its a free society, quiet the opposit,its ruled by a dictatorship.
The iraqi civilian death toll i gave was based on media act, a british based organisation. I take it to be more accurate because the assosiated press put the figure at 8000, but it only visited half the hospitals, and didnt take into account that muslims bury their dead imdeiatly without sending them to the hospital first. That and the fact iraq's hospitals are ilequipped, and were cramed with soldiers at the time. Its a painfull figure i dont plan on forgetting. Whats worse is the figure of dead iraqi civilians due to the sanctions, 1.5 million, an internationaly accepted figure. That hurts us. Also i could justify sept 11 because America attacked and oppressed first, its a extremely radical to accept nuking 2 japanese cities. Because accepting it automatically makes 9/11 acceptable. Human lives are costless, regardless who these lives belonged to. As for christians, i personally have excellent relationship with many priests in my area. They endorsed my veiws on conservative christians, i find it ironic they preach what the condemn.
FDRFAN-
My figures are all over the net. I personally got them from Micheal Moores book "stuiped white men". I also read in a bbc report that 40000 black people votes were discluded, largly democrats. Look up what i say before you turn a blind eye to it. Besides, i merely clear misconceptions, its not like im speaking on a personal basis for the "holier than though" statement of yours to be valid. I dont need help, you need information, thats what i have.
Jew-
Looking at the links you gave me, i suggest you think twice about who's brainwashed. I have a little more on your last sentence in the next few lines.
FDR-
I really dont understand how what ive said is radical. It can be considered radical should i have been American, but one should realise different cultures and nations often means different views, and meathods of reasoning, standards, and all what i spoke of earlier. It could be that propaganda affects me, but it certainly works it way through many. I cant find much reason to believe it did. I tend to watch and read articles from a huge variety of sources, mostly english one's, as english is my firstlanguage. I have no standard for news, news is news, i derive the facts from articles and ignore the rest, i prefer to make my own judgement. FDR, im sure i made it clear i dont support it 9/11. But unless you feel the pains many felt, you wont understand why they felt happy that the American power was infeltrated. I dont see it as an infiltration, but im speeking for the public, not myself, this topic is one i usualy discuss amongst fellow muslims. Just a point, muslims see Americans rejoice many of the disastors happening to us. Theres a large gap between the two people, untill that gap disappears i dont excpect any different a reaction. FDR for the current moment ive left the arab country i lived in, and live in the west(not America) I interact with these people all the time, and have debated countless times, so youll have to excuse me if i dont find many things to ask. I would like to know what you think of the voting in America, how parties and corporations have so much power. That bothers me greatly, its one of the main reasons that leads me to believe Iraq war had a great deal of interests in it, that my people died for the American corporations greed. I dont understad why Americans turn a blind eye to it! Comments on that are apreciated.
Jew-
The muslims are oppresed in ever muslim nation, youd think all religious groups suffer under our dictators?
Ill try make my posts on a more personall basis next time...

OK. I'll do my best Ahmad impression----> Monkeys are flying out of my butt. I know this from the facts. I've read many articles on this and I have debated with many others and I have come to this conclusion. I think Elvis is still alive. I've seen him on television so I know this is true. In fact, Elvis is controlling the U.S government. That is why corporations are so corrupt. Sometimes Elvis is disguised as Rush Limbaugh. Why do you think Rush has suddenly had drug problems? And with Elvis running the country, no wonder why corporations are so corrupt. The Muslim world has kept Elvis out of their countries. That is why we don't see so much corruption in our world. But yes we have dictators. But they are actual Elvis look-alikes that were kicked out of Vegas. OK, I'm done throwing up now.

To Cute:

In fact the number of US citizens converting to Islam has decreased since 9/11 by 43%.

Check your facts before posting on the internet.