Abu Bakar Bashir
How are these guys able to keep making recruits? By presenting themselves as the true Islam, just like my friend Amir. From the Washington Post, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:
The sun was bright, the sky a flawless blue -- a perfect day for a graduation. In a mountain clearing in the southern Philippines four years ago, 17 young Indonesians snapped to attention in their camouflage fatigues, two instructors recalled. They marched in formation. They assembled a low-explosive bomb and detonated it. They crawled on the ground with AK-47s."Allahu Akbar!" the audience cheered: "God is greatest."
The men were the first graduates of the military academy established by Jemaah Islamiah, a Southeast Asian militant network allied with al Qaeda. That day in April 2000, as described by two men who were there, was a high point in the life of the organization.
During the next two years, hard-liners in Jemaah Islamiah gained influence. The group's biggest attacks were the October 2002 bombings of two Bali nightclubs and the August 2003 bombing of the JW Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, which together killed 214 people. At least one of the 17 graduates was arrested last year for hiding a Bali bomber, said Muhaimin, 42, one of the instructors in the Philippines and now an imam at a Jakarta mosque. Like many Indonesians, he uses only one name.
The death toll from the March 11 bombings in Madrid is listed at 190, slightly less than Bali, and a group saying it represents al Qaeda has asserted responsibility. A similar claim was made after the Bali bombings.
Although al Qaeda provided financing for the Bali attacks, Jemaah Islamiah operates largely independently, analysts and police say. Indonesian, Malaysian and Singaporean members, who met and were molded in Islamic boarding schools and training camps in Afghanistan and the Philippines, share al Qaeda's ideology but do not need an order from Osama bin Laden to act, according to police and former members such as Muhaimin.
More than 240 of Jemaah Islamiah's members have been arrested since the Bali and Jakarta attacks, including many of its leaders. But interviews with captured members, former members and relatives portray a network that continues to defy police efforts to quash it, exploiting school, family and religious connections to stay alive.
"At the same time that the police arrest them, they always find someone to replace them," Mohammad Nasir bin Abbas, 34, a former instructor at the camp, said in an interview. "Even if the entire Jemaah Islamiah membership is wiped out, other groups will arise and do the same thing."
Jemaah Islamiah plans to close its training camp in the Philippines, according to Indonesian police, as its main ally there, the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, conducts peace talks with the Philippine government. But the network is reportedly seeking to relocate the camp in Indonesia, a handful of leaders are still at large, and analysts and police warn of the possibility of another attack.Six Indonesian terrorism suspects were recently arrested trying to enter Malaysia from the Philippines. Meanwhile, Abubakar Baasyir, 65, a cleric considered the network's leader, could be released from prison as early as next month. Baasyir was arrested and jailed in October 2002 on charges of immigration offenses and forgery, but not for involvement in the Bali bombings. The Indonesian Supreme Court recently reduced his sentence. The instructors recalled him watching proudly at the Jemaah Islamiah graduation ceremony in 2000.
"This organization is still dangerous as hell," said an Indonesian police official who spoke on condition of anonymity. "They keep regenerating. They can change the name of the group. They can use new faces. They change strategy."
Until his arrest last December, Muhammad Saifudin, an Indonesian, was being groomed as part of Jemaah Islamiah's next generation of leaders. In an interview in his jail cell in Jakarta in the presence of his attorney, Saifudin said he was recruited as a religious teacher, or ulema, for the terrorist network by the principal of a conservative Islamic boarding school in Solo, in central Java.
As Saifudin explained it, Jemaah Islamiah needed not only fighters, but teachers who could furnish a religious justification for the jihad, or holy war. But even teachers needed hands-on experience, he said. So he was sent to the Philippines to learn to fight.
"I wanted to contribute something to this Islamic movement," Saifudin said. "Besides, I was the best student in my class, and my teacher saw this potential."
In 1999 after he graduated from the Islamic boarding school, he took one of Jemaah Islamiah's short courses at its camp in the Philippines. In four months, he said, he learned everything from mapmaking to bomb assembly.
In 2001, he trained in Afghanistan, at Camp al Farouq in Kandahar, which housed 300 fighters from Saudi Arabia, he said.
Also at the camp was Hambali, whose real name is Nurjaman Riduan Isamuddin and who was Jemaah Islamiah's most important strategist until his capture last August. In October 2001, when the United States invaded Afghanistan in retaliation for the Sept. 11 attacks, Saifudin said, he shouldered a Stinger missile and tried to shoot down U.S. jets, but the planes flew too high and the Stingers were outdated.
Saifudin, who said he met bin Laden four times at the camp, said the al Qaeda leader showed the recruits videos of Palestinian civilians dying after being attacked by Israelis. "Osama was crying and said, 'These people are my brothers in Islam. They ask for my help and your help,' " he recalled.
In late 2001, Saifudin went to Karachi, a city in southern Pakistan. There he joined a group called al Ghuraba, Arabic for "the foreigners." The group was formed on Hambali's orders, Singaporean authorities said. Many of its members were sons or brothers of Jemaah Islamiah militants. The group itself was set up by Abdul Rahim, Baasyir's son. Hambali's brother handled the finances, Abdul Rahim said in an interview at his father's home in Solo.
Abdul Rahim, who lives freely in Solo where his father co-founded an Islamic boarding school, said al Ghuraba was formed purely for religious study and discussion. Saifudin said senior Jemaah Islamiah members "saw the urgency of regeneration in the movement" and sent their sons and their students to Pakistan to study to become ulemas.
But Singapore, which has arrested two of the group's members, has characterized it as a cell designed to groom future leaders. And a senior Indonesian security official said the students served as liaisons between Hambali and al Qaeda, in some cases transferring money. An Indonesian police official said they helped Hambali in terrorist activities, which he did not specify.
Eleven young al Ghuraba members are now in jail in three countries. Their backgrounds reflect the movement's family ties: The two members arrested in Singapore are the sons of members of Jemaah Islamiah and Moro, respectively. In Malaysia, five students have been detained, three of whose fathers are with Jemaah Islamiah. In Indonesia, Saifudin and Hambali's brother are among four members arrested.
With the 11 arrests, al Ghuraba has been effectively dismantled, authorities say.
But police and analysts such as Sydney Jones, director of the International Crisis Group's Indonesia program, point to the emergence of other groups as evidence that the militant movement will be difficult to break up.
A group called Mujaheddin Kompak formed in 1999 in response to what it saw as the slower, more bureaucratic Jemaah Islamiah, from which it drew some of its leaders, Jones wrote in a new ICG report.
Jemaah Islamiah, meanwhile, continues to draw strength from family ties, with women playing a largely unseen role.
In a modest cinderblock house in East Java, Faridah binti Abbas, sister of Mohammad Nasir bin Abbas, the former camp instructor, is raising six young children alone. The youngest, Usama, was born after her husband, Ali Ghufron, also known as Mukhlas, Jemaah Islamiah's alleged operations chief, was sent to prison for helping plot the Bali bombings. There, Mukhlas has told police he was gratified that Bali "claimed many lives from American allies, including Australians" and has written by hand manuscripts with titles such as "How to Educate Your Wife" and "The Bali Bomb Jihad."
Yet Faridah, whose marriage was arranged by her father, shows no sign of weariness or fear that his death sentence could leave her a widow. She wears a black chador, the traditional garment that covers all but the eyes and is worn when a woman is outside the house.
She became passionate when asked about jihad and the targeting of civilians. "Bali killed only 200 people," she said. "How about those killed in Kashmir? In Iraq? In Palestine? In Chechnya? In Afghanistan?" Why don't we call those who attacked them terrorists? she asked.
These days, Mohammad Nasir bin Abbas is torn by conflicting emotions. On the one hand, he still reveres the organization's founder, Abdullah Sungkar -- the "old man," he calls him -- who died in late 1999 of a heart attack. On the other, he is disgusted, he says, by the group's shift since 2000 toward civilian violence. He said a majority of the group disagrees with that tactic, an assertion backed by Saifudin.
Nasir said he believes that the use of arms is justified only against another army or militia in defense of Muslims under attack.
Persuading his fellow militants to end their targeting of civilians is difficult, he said. "It's about ideology," he said. "They believe what they're doing is true. That it comes from God."
I agree with you. It always drives me nuts.
Even if JI is replaced by other organizations, wiping it out is still a necessity. It shows the world you will fight terrorism, and it forces terrorists to spend more energy protecting themselves. The best defense is a good offense.
Maybe it's time for mass sterilization. Demographics are our greatest enemy!
EVERYONE HAS IS WRONG. WE ARE NOT GOING TO FIGHT TERRORISM WE ARE FIGHTING ISLAM. ONCE WE COME TO THIS CONCLUSION WE WILL BE ON THE ROAD TO SAFE LIVING AGAIN.
Peter - You are a little off. Not everyone talks about terrorism as the adversary. Many feel guilty because we are progammed to believe that if we admit that our adversary is radical Islam, we are being bigots, and bigotry is a no-no in America. The Islamists understand this and are exploitating our better nature.
Self-defense is not bigotry, but the targeting of any religious group in America is against our principles. We target those that attack us and welcome those that don't. Thus we are also at war with our better nature and our American principles which we might have to temporily amend until the threat is over. Otherwise there wll be no America that I could ever recognize.
peter has a point though. it IS islam that is poisoning the minds of these kids
we just cannot classify Islam as a COMPLETELY peaceful religion for the sake of political correctness. that too would be bowing to terrorism.
Eliminate the Islamofascist mullahs and where is the poison going to come from ?
The atmosphere in Indonesia is mostly of disbelief: that Bashir, such an old and frail-looking man, is the head of Jemaah Islamiyah, a group that most Indonesian's don't really belief exists anyway. Consensus is that the Christian and Jewish alliance is actively oppressing Islam by way of elaborate conspiracies. It's not a rare occurance that during conversations with workmates about the Middle East, someone would bring up: 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy, that the two towers were rigged by the US government to collapse, that the Marriot and Bali bombings were backed by the CIA. Strangely, the recent outbreak of terror all across the world seems to further "Islamize" most Indonesian Muslims. I myself am not a brave man, and hide my apostasy.
The problem is the ideology. Eradicaate the ideology.
Umar -"if you did judge islam on its merits, and not hear'say or what its followers are doing, then you would be a muslim. " This is an absurd argument. a religion has to be judged by the actions of its messengers, its adherents. This tell us what the religion is really about. Christianity has a variety of interpretations, none of which involve violence, murder, and domination. If Islam were the same, if the message didn't create murderers, rapists. thugs, and other criminals with a violent bent all intent on spreading their "wonderful" messsage for and in the name of their religion, then Islam might be worthy of adoption.
The messengers are behaving in the manner required by the founder, the same as Christians are behaving in the manner required by their founders. The two messsages are at a distinct 180 degree polar opposite. The problem for you is that we do know a lot about Islam. You can't lie to us anymore.
epg, you don't even understand what the purpose of Jesus the son of Mary was. Period.
your making accusations against muslims, well look in the mirror.
Mullah Umar,
You certainly are a typically arrogant, condescending muslim. I imagine you are considered quite mainstream by your compatriots. Thank you for providing a living example of what this board opposes.
Dear Umar,
epg was right when she said;
"The messengers are behaving in the manner required by the founder, the same as Christians are behaving in the manner required by their founders. The two messsages are at a distinct 180 degree polar opposite."
Here are a few examples of the teachings that Jesus gave and that Muhammed on the same topics;
JESUS
From John 8:2-11
“At dawn He (Jesus) appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap in order to have a basis to accuse Him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with His finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to threw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one sir", she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
MUHAMMAD
From the Hadith of Abu Dawud, #4428
"Buraidah said: "A woman of Ghamid came to the Prophet and said: "I have committed fornication", He said: "Go back". She returned and on the next day she came to him again, and said: "Perhaps you want to send me back as you did to Maiz b. Malik. I swear by Allah, I am pregnant." He said to her: "Go back". She then returned and came to him the next day. He said to her: "Go back until you give birth to the child." She then returned. When she gave birth to the child she brought the child to him, and said: "Here it is! I have given birth to it." He said: "Go back, and suckle him until you wean him." When she had weaned him, she brought him to him with something in his hand which he was eating. The boy was then given to a certain man of the Muslims and he (the prophet) commanded regarding her. So a pit was dug for her, and he gave orders about her and she was stoned to death.
JESUS: In Luke 9:54, 55 Jesus rebuked His disciples when they wanted to destroy a town that rejected Him. Also, in Luke 22:52, Jesus' disciples started to fight against those that came to arrest Jesus, He stopped them, and healed a man injured in the fight
In Matthew 11, Jesus gives this command to his disciples concerning those who wouldn’t listen to them:
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."
MUHAMMAD: told his followers to aggressively make war on non-Muslims: 9:5, 29. Sura 9 was one of the last Suras given by Muhammad. Initially, when Muhammad's group was weak, he ordered his followers to try to get along with other people. After the Muslims became powerful, he ordered them to spread Islam by force.
Sura 9:5;
“Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”
Sura 9:29;
“Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Sura 4:47;
O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad SAW) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath ¬breakers. And the Commandment of Allâh is always executed.”
JESUS;
Mathew, 22:34-39;
"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
MUHAMMED:
Hadith by Bukhari, Vol.1 Book 2 #25;
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
The contrast is stark isn't it?
kc.
RE: KC
A.) What are you trying to prove to ME about Jesus the Son of Mary. That he was a prophet, yes i agree, that he was the spirit of Allah, yes i agree, that he was a very spiritual prophet who ate very little and did not marry or have children rather devoted his life to God. Yes i agree. Are you trying to prove to me that Jesus was a healer and he raised from the dead, well i agree. Are you telling me that Jesus brought a message of peace, harmony and love. Well I agree. Was Jesus raised from the dead after his so called crucifiction, well i agree he rose from the dead.
You can't prove something that has already been proven.
And regarding your 'comparisons'. The first story of adultery, The Prophet Mohammed PBUH sent the woman back TWO times... He forgave her TWO times. No wait he then gave her another chance of FORGIVENESS when he told her to back untill she had the child. she had another 9 months to dwell on the matter. But no she insisted that she was to be punished for her sin. and then came back after 9 months, but the prophet Mohammed gave her another 2 years, but she STILL came back to face punishment.
Come on KC it desnt take a geniuous. I stopped reading your comparison their...Have a nice day, Jolly good mate..
And to DC, lol are you still in primary school, come back and tell me something i dont already know, your post is entirely hypocritical. Do you even know anything about how the British government work. (i dont know about the US) but britain is a 'shining' example of western 'freedom' and 'security', but the truth mate is far from this. britain is one of the most corrupt regimes in the world. I mean in terms of destroying the social fabric of the country. But no, the peopple don't realise because they get the fire in their stomach burned out by being given just enough money to eat, get a roof over their heads and most importantly go get pissed and end up creating yet another bastard
Dear Umar..
Well thats a real interesting take on the adultry story.
Not the usual "You dont understand the Arabic" accusation.
In the case of women commiting adultry in Islam, if a child is produced, the womans punishment is deferred until the child has been weaned, (2yrs old according to the Qur'an, Sura 31:14)
This is what was happening in this case.
If you are trying to deny stoning was the prescribed punishment by muhammed, then I offer you these verses:
Hadith by Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 805:
“A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle and Informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and bore witness four times against himself. Allah's Apostle ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married Person”
Sura 24:2
The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law)
"Forgivness" doesn't come in to it.
What I was trying to show you was, as epg stated, that Jesus and Muhammeds teachings "are at a distinct 180 degree polar opposite."
They are in no way compatible with each other.
Muhammeds "revelations" are not, and can not be a continuation of what had gone before.
I will leave you with the warning God gave us 500yrs before Muhammed turned up:
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"
Galatians 1:8-9.
kc.
Well Umar my friend, if I've told you what you already know, then why in the hell don't you and the century impaired faction of Islam go after your true problems?
Primary school? Sure thing pal....Just remember, it's you and yours that is either too stubbornly proud, or too afraid to confront your true enemies, your own so called leaders.
Unfortunately for Islamic radicals, they've gone and challenged American will and fortitude, which will ultimately spell their end. You and yours should be plotting to take out all dictators that rule in the Middle East, not us.
See, look at it like this. America isn't the fall, it's the landing...
D.C.
I am an American former Jew, now a Muslim by choice. I have just found this site and do not find the comments surprising. I understand what is being said and if there is anyone interested in non-hostile dialogue, bringing proofs and evidences in a fair and decent manner then I would be interested in that. I do not have the stomach for verbal boxing matches nor is it from Islam to engage in it.
Regarding the following hadith posted by kc (england)
MUHAMMAD
From the Hadith of Abu Dawud, #4428
"Buraidah said: "A woman of Ghamid came to the Prophet and said: "I have committed fornication", He said: "Go back". She returned and on the next day she came to him again, and said: "Perhaps you want to send me back as you did to Maiz b. Malik. I swear by Allah, I am pregnant." He said to her: "Go back". She then returned and came to him the next day. He said to her: "Go back until you give birth to the child." She then returned. When she gave birth to the child she brought the child to him, and said: "Here it is! I have given birth to it." He said: "Go back, and suckle him until you wean him." When she had weaned him, she brought him to him with something in his hand which he was eating. The boy was then given to a certain man of the Muslims and he (the prophet) commanded regarding her. So a pit was dug for her, and he gave orders about her and she was stoned to death.
This person did not include the full exlanation of this hadith. This woman who committed adultery (once a crime in other religions) and a crime in Islam, came to the Messenger of Allah wanting to admit her guilt and seek repentence by the appearing for judgement and stoning. Stoning is the punishment by God for this sin, if and only if, it has been witnessed by 4 people, which in most cases is highly unlikely unless one 'gets down' in the middle of the mall or such place. (This is in fact a Mercy requiring 4 witnesses in order to prevent people accusing others of serious crimes and look at our judicial system, one witness can convince a jury and 20 years later the "rapist" is freed based upon DNA reports). This Muslim woman sought total repentance by this method. What KC does not know or failed to mention is that the the Messenger of Allah tried several times to convince the woman to not tell him of her sin in order that she might go and seek forgiveness from Allah. What may be unknown to all of you is that one may commit a serious crime and if not caught seeks repentence in Allah and intends not to commit the act again with sincerity then seeks to perform good deeds and God Willing will be forgiven, but this woman chose to pursue punishment and the ultimate act of repentance. The Messenger of Allah then had no choice but to carry out the orders of Allah because the orders of God are not twistable and changeable to satisfy people or to do favors, etc. He had the woman return after delivering and weaning the baby off her breast. This was a mercy for the child. After her death he then said that Allah forgave her. This was a great act of faith on her part and not stupidity as some might claim.
abooismail
The name Allah is the proper name of God. It means in English the One True God and is also the name of God in Arabic bibles. Allah is singular and does not have a plural form in Arabic. Allah is the name God gave himself.
It is funny that some say Muslims worship an idol, when Allah sent down His Religion Islam to destroy all forms of idol worship be it worship of a human being, stones, planets, fire, etc.
His name Allah, is only a singular form and not consistent with the pagan concept of believing in many (often nonsensical)objects, people and things.
abooismail
Abu Abdullah:
You are welcome. If you really want dialogue, you might try posting on a more recent thread.