Villepin
Tough talk from Dominique de Villepin. From Reuters, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:
PARIS, France (Reuters) -- France must tackle the issue of training Muslim prayer leaders in a moderate "French Islam" that respects human rights and rejects terrorism, Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin says.Speaking a day after he deported an Algerian imam for saying Islam let husbands beat adulterous wives, Villepin urged the country's prefects Thursday to expel any foreign preacher who advocated violence, hate, racism or abuses of human rights.
Only about 10 percent of imams in France are citizens and about half of all imams in the country speak French, experts say.
Most are imported from Arab countries, where some have been trained in radical Islamist views that clash with France's secular laws.
But mainstream Muslim leaders' calls for help require funds, scarce at a time when France is struggling to cut its huge budget deficit. Their appeals for subsidies also conflict with the country's strict separation of church and state.
"We must face the issue of training imams," Villepin told a meeting of prefects, who oversee the application of government policy in departments across France.
"I ask you to help the Muslim faith get organized better and more quickly so a real French Islam can emerge," he said, adding that training programs would help the official French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM) to supervise imams.
Abdelkader Bouziane, 52, who preached in a mosque near Lyon, was packed off to Algiers Wednesday after he told a magazine that Islam allowed the stoning and beating of unfaithful wives.
France expelled another imam last week for preaching radical Islam and defending the Madrid train bombs that killed 191 people.
Zero tolerance
"We will not tolerate any preacher, of any philosophy or religion, who advocates violence, abuse of human rights, hate and racism or who has links to organizations that condone terrorism," Villepin said.
CFCM chairman Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the moderate Grand Mosque of Paris, requested state aid Tuesday to launch a seminary to train imams in a tolerant "French Islam."
The Grand Mosque and a rival group offer some imam training courses, but these are not officially recognized and teach differing versions of Islamic theology.
"The CFCM must tackle the problem of training imams, but the state must also help us with a minimum of financing to create a training institute," Boubakeur said.
Bordeaux imam Mahmoud Doua said prayer leaders in France -- some of whom have no training at all -- needed a modern education. "The ideal would be a university education in both the social sciences and Koranic studies," he said.
Mohammad Kouba, an administrator of the An-Nour mosque near Caen in Normandy, told Reuters his congregation never hired foreign imams because they did not understand life in France.
"We tell our girls to respect French laws on secularism, even if that means they have to take off their headscarves in state schools," he said. "An imam from Saudi Arabia would not tell you to obey a French law."
Born in Sale, jeek-by-jowl to Rabat, Dominique de Villepin has always believed that having spent the first few years of his life in Morocco has given him great understanding of Islam. He knows nothing about it. He persists in believing that there is a "good" Islam, and that the teachings of that "good" Islam must be supported. What there really is, as Ataturk understood, is a "sanitized" Islam that can, with the army and the police ready to enforce it, be monitored in the mosques. This is not the "real" Islam -- all of the texts, of Qur'an and hadith, and all of the commentators and jurisconsults, come down on the side of the real, "bad" Islam. But as long as police and army, as in Turkey, are willing to monitor the khutbas (sermons at Friday Prayers), to censor the radio and television and newspapers in Arabic, to have agents (probably Berbers) constantly reporting on what is going on with the boys in the banlieue, with their bullets and bombs, then things can be kept under control.
But as in Turkey, eternal vigilance is the price of liberty from real Islam. Secularist supporters of Kemalism in Turkey know that the army is the final guarantor of Kemalism, and that the attempts of the non-secularists to gain power, in schools, in the police, in the government, are unceasing and extremely cunning, and the survival of Kemalism can never be assumed.
Even if that preening poseur and poetaster, D. de V., were suddenly to have had a change of heart, which is scarcely to be believed, his insistence that there is a "good" Islam and that the "bad" Islam is an aberration simply prolongs the confusion, and the day of intellectual reckoning.
And what will be the cost, to French taxpayers, of all that monitoring, all that paying for the interception of phone calls, all those agents in the mosques, all those security forces everywhere -- and with only the hope of sweeping back, as Kemalism sweeps back, the tide of Islam. Vaste programme, monsieur.
See, I told you the French were going towards the Singapore Solution:
"We must face the issue of training imams," Villepin told a meeting of prefects, who oversee the application of government policy in departments across France.
"I ask you to help the Muslim faith get organized better and more quickly so a real French Islam can emerge," he said, adding that training programs would help the official French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM) to supervise imams.
Just what is the Singapore solution? Here is a repeat of my earlier post:
Sorry this is off topic Mr. Spencer but I think how the Singapore government has dealt with its Muslim population is very instructive. Here is a link to Singapore's Administration of Muslim Law Act:
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_retrieve.pl?&actno=Reved-3&date=latest&method=part
And just to repeat, the interesting thing about this legislation is that the government appoints or approves all the Muslim hierarchy, decides where and if a mosque should be built, regulates Muslim schooling including curricula, regulates all aspects of the application of Muslim law and keeps track of Muslims so closely that it even requires every single, individual conversion to be reported to the state. This legislation, of course, is the opposite of a separation of a church and state but it is, I think, the direction France is heading and the direction that we may have to head to stave off catastrophe. It is especially fascinating to me that the state even decides, for the Muslims, what false doctrine is:
False doctrine
139. —(1) Whoever shall teach or publicly expound any doctrine or perform any ceremony or act relating to the Muslim religion in any manner contrary to the Muslim law shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both.
[20/99]
(2) In any prosecution for an offence under this section, where evidence is given by the President that any doctrine, ceremony or act is contrary to the Muslim law, the court shall presume that such doctrine, ceremony or act is contrary to the Muslim law.
Please note, because this bears repeating: "where evidence is given by the President that any doctrine, ceremony or act is contrary to the Muslim law, the court shall presume that such doctrine, ceremony or act is contrary to the Muslim law." In other words, the Muslims don't have a choice in Singapore about what their doctrine is. The President decides what it is for them. I think that is the only way to keep a lid on them. I am so impressed with how Singapore has neutered the Muslims in Singapore. They are just trained little Islamic lapdogs for President Lee Kuan Yew. My hat is off to him.
Hugh:
So what's your solution? I agree with you that a good first step would be to ban Muslim immigration but it is going to take decades before people will finally come around to that point of view. By then, it will be too late. Then, our only hope will be mass expulsions a la Spain in 1492 but that again will probably be politically unacceptable. So, the only solution left to us under those circumstances is the Kemalist or Singapore Solution. Regulate the hell out of them and watch them like hawks. We've made our bed by allowing them in in the first place. Now we've got to figure out how to live with them without destroying our civilization. Really, because of our insane immigration policies, there will only be a few countries left that might be the standard bearers of Western civilization after we are gone - that is China and Japan. And why is that? Because they don't allow immigration. Most people don't realize this but Japan is the most xenophobic country on earth and does not allow any immigration at all. They are, as I write this, embarked on a project to completely roboticize their society in a technological tour-de-force which will revolutionize the world. They are going to use robots in place of the labor that any other country would allow in via immigration. Consequently, robotic technology will be developed to an extent that would be unheard of otherwise. This development will change the whole world as the Japanese mass development of this technology will make it cheap as dirt for the whole world. You heard it here first on Dhimmiwatch!
Yvt.
Mentat
Mentat~ Oddly enough, I seem to recall hearing something recently about robots, to control the immigration problem.... TCS? I shall have to look.
In any case, I hope they (Japan) goes for it all out.
Hmmm. And I do Not seem to recall hearing much, if Anything, about muslims in Japan. Can anyone direct me to such info?
Singapore Solution - Yes, Singapore is one of the most regulated societies on earth, using Draconian methods. Remember the case of the American teen that spit chewing gum on the sidewalk a few ago. He received a sentence of caning. I believe, twenty strokes. He may have beem spared the punishment through diplomatic efforts, but he was then expelled.
Monitor and regulate them to death. But then, to fair by law, we would have to regulate everyone. There are easy solutions, but no "good" and easy solutions. I'm afraid, for self-preservation, we must choose a "bad" and easy solution.
Gary:
What are you talking about - Muslims in Japan? The whole point of my post was that the Japanese don't allow immigration. Consequently, there are no Muslims. Consequently, they are moving to use robots instead of people to deal with their declining and aging population. As far as the Japanese moving to robots, yes, a few people have written on the topic but not very many. Most people are extremely ignorant about Japan. In fact, most people are just as ignorant about Japan as they are about Islam. You should study Japanese history. It is very instructive. How a country went from being a backward medieval place after the visit from Commodore Perry in I think it was 1865 to being a world power by 1905 and defeating the Russian navy. In 40 years, they went from nothing to something. And how they did it is a matter of public record. It is an amazing story. You should learn something about it.
EPG:
Do you really think that the United States or any Western country, in the absence of a truly catastrophic terror attack (a nuclear suitcase bomb or the like - anyways at least 10,000 dead or so), will ban Muslim immigration or expel Muslims. Politically, it is impossible. The "bad" and easy solution you propose is politically impossible. I bet in your heart of hearts you know that. We are stuck with this growing problem. The political will is just not there in the absence of a catastophic terror strike.
Mentat - When push comes to shove and we are being bombed right and left and their are automatic weapons on the streets, we choose a "bad" situation out of self-preservation. I hope it doesn't come to that.
i think the solution is what happened in greece after the fall of the ottoman empire-population exchange-you give us ur christians and well give you your muslims-fair -then muslims wont have to complain about living in secular states anymore they can be as muslim as they want.
it worked in bulgaria and greece until recently with this new age political correctness, muslim populations were at insignificant levels
i think this will be the ultimate path
Pro-orthodox, I think you may be right for some countries.
But I still think France will go the government regulation route as per Singapore. They have already started down that road. The French are much more statist in their approach to things than many other countries. The US could never go the regulation route because it is against the constitution. But, in France, where it also is presumably against the constitution, they are going to make an exception for the separation of church/state rule in the case of Islam.
We'll see. The population exchange certainly did work in the Greece/Turkey situation. But the key to it working has been that the Greeks have let very few Muslims back into their country since then. Would you not agree with that, Pro-orthodox?
well yes thats also part of the process, swap populations based on religion and keep them apart the west will remain the west and the east the east i cant see what people will have to complain about then, you want to live in the west then convert and become western same follows the other way around as is only fair
Then also remove all western soldiers from the east and also remove all aid and let them work for it via trade, i bet there system will fall apart within years due to the fact that apart from oil they have no knowledge, innovation, technology or science to exchange for trade
that will wake them up to the modern world pretty quick
what where dealing with now is say a spoilt kid on social security, looked after by the west with time on his hands and instead of using that time to impress the world with new discoveries and enlightenment that could benefit the entire world he instead becomes a delinquent and despises the very system that keeps him alive?
also for population exchange to happen there would have to be some major significant events to occur for the west to stop being so soft and righteous, like major civil wars within europe based on religion which i think we will head towards eventually, sooner or later the pushing for appeasment will hit a raw nerve and both sides will be at each others throats, this will creatre enourmous mistrust and hatred as seen even today in the balkans and the only solution is either seperation or population exchange as seen in those areas even as we speak
"what where dealing with now is say a spoilt kid on social security, looked after by the west with time on his hands and instead of using that time to impress the world with new discoveries and enlightenment that could benefit the entire world he instead becomes a delinquent and despises the very system that keeps him alive?"
You are so right Pro-orthodox!
I just finished re-reading President Mahathir's speech to the 10th Islamic congress. He says that the Muslims have to start learning science but why? He says:
http://www.oicsummit2003.org.my/speech_03.php
We are enjoined by our religion to prepare for the defence of the ummah. Unfortunately we stress not defence but the weapons of the time of the Prophet. Those weapons and horses cannot help to defend us any more. We need guns and rockets, bombs and warplanes, tanks and warships for our defence. But because we discouraged the learning of science and mathematics etc. as giving no merit for the akhirat, today we have no capacity to produce our own weapons for our defence. We have to buy our weapons from our detractors and enemies. This is what comes from the superficial interpretation of the Quran, stressing not the substance of the Prophet's sunnah and the Quran's injunctions but rather the form, the manner and the means used in the 1st Century of the Hijrah. And it is the same with the other teachings of Islam. We are more concerned with the forms rather than the substance of the words of Allah and adhering only to the literal interpretation of the traditions of the Prophet.
So, according to Mahathir, why do you need science? Is it to improve the world, make it a better place for us all? No, it is so you can make your own weapons to attack the infidel and restore the pride of the ummah. I despair for us and for these people. Eventually, despite what Mahathir says, if they keep up this desire to attack us militarily, we will wipe out a big chunk of their population.
Solution? evangelisation and prayers ! Wake up christian folk !
At one point the article talks about the French " seperation of church and state " at other points it talks about the French government training Imans in something called " French Islam ".
Dominique de Villepin is throughly confussed. The state funding Islamic activities is conter to the seperation of church and state.
Laws are established to protect the population. If some cult like nuts go around threatening that population, then you crack down on them, up to including deportation. Simple as that.
Trying to concoct a new religion should be no affair of the state. French Islam vs. Traditional Islam, I can see the street battles now. The state should not even go there. Trying to establish a rational cult among a sea of nuts is a dangerous exercise in futility.
Wesley