Quiz time! Is this a Muslim in America after 9/11 or an American in Iran after the 1979 Islamic Revolution?
The Guardian reports that Imam Ramee Muhammed, a Chicago native, is afraid to come home. (Thanks to Nicolei).
A US-born Muslim cleric who sought asylum in the UK four months ago has been detained and told he may be deported within days.Imam Ramee Muhammed, 40, a preacher originally from Chicago, applied for asylum in January this year because he says he fears persecution if he returns to the US. But on Friday, days after an article on his case appeared in a Sunday newspaper, he was detained and his claim fast-tracked.
The heart of the matter is this:
An article published on the front page of last week's Sunday Express, headlined "Maddest asylum plea yet", claimed Mr Muhammed taught Richard Reid - the so-called "shoe bomber"- and had links with the radical preacher Abu Hamza..Imam Muhammed claims the article is untrue and has complained to the Press Complaints Commission. He admits Richard Reid attended a lecture of his at the Finsbury Park mosque, but says that was six years ago and that he was lecturing on brotherhood.
"Brotherhood"? Hmmm. That's equivocal. Could it be the Muslim Brotherhood, the early twentieth century group that inspired and inspires today's top terrorist groups.
He says he knows Omar Bakri Muhammed, leader of the fringe group al-Muhajiroun, but has no links with him.
Ramee Muhammed is clearly trying to position himself as a moderate. But how moderate is he? Say! I have an idea! Suppose Imam Muhammed came back to the U.S. and started vociferously denouncing jihad ideology and radicals like Omar Bakri. He could be a spokesman for moderate Muslims everywhere. He could preach the universal brotherhood of man and the need for equality, dignity and freedom for all. I wonder what Ramee Muhammed would think of that idea — and if he rejected it, as he probably would, what would that make of his moderate claims?
After all, I told one Muslim on this board that I was in favor of "a flowering, a renaissance, in the Muslim world, including full equality of rights for women and non-Muslims in Islamic societies: freedom of conscience, equality in laws regarding legal testimony, equal employment opportunities, etc." He replied: "So, you would like to see us ditch much of our religion and, thereby, become non-Muslims." Hmmmm. You can read that exchange here.
Isn't dealing with intellectual deficit a pain?
They'll never abandon their beliefs, and it'd certainly be a shock if they ever treated women equally. They're afraid of women, because the women in the Middle East are far more intelligent than they are.
Bring this Imam back here, let's try him, convict him, then deport him to Haiti, or better yet, Greenland.
Robert - You nailed it! If indeeded he came back to denouce Jihad and preach for the brotherhood of man, dignity for everyone, and all the rest, he would make a step for Muslim moderation. He is showing his hand by not wanting to return.
He is a hypocrite. (For you all that don't know the Western meaning of the word hypocrite "A Person who pretends to be what he is not.) He is a hypocrite because he puts himself forward (pretense) to be a moderate (that which he is not).
DC, my dear friend, you are welcome to having him back.
I find it interesting that Yusuf Smith basically admits that Islam treats non-Muslims as second-class citizens, but takes umbrage at our attempts to protect ourselves from this fate as "racist."
Who is the racist? I don't see any non-Muslims advocating for Muslims to be subjected to systematic religious apartheid. On the contrary, Muslims in Western countries get all kinds of special accommodations of their religion and a mainstream media that falls all over itself to present Islam as a "religion of peace."
Yusuf is also woefully ignorant (as any idealistic young college student might be) about the case of non-Muslims living in Muslim lands. It's laughable that he doesn't know the practice of Christianity is banned in Saudi Arabia and severely burdenend if not actually banned in all other Muslim countries, including "secular" Turkey.
This young man has a severe case of dawah brainwashing. I feel dreadfully sorry for Yusuf's family. The thing is, how do we protect our own children from falling to the same fate?
It makes me wary of sending my child to public school (for fear of being taught that Islam is a "religion of peace" and that the Crusades were unjustified attacks on Muslims when Muslims started the jihad first). What is the answer?
I know what you mean KC.....I think maybe we'd both benefit from this goof being sent back to the states in a leaky boat across the Atlantic...
Just what illegal acts has Imam Muhammed committed? In fact, what are the illegal acts of which he is accused? In both cases, the answer is "none".
This innocent man is the victim of typical American racism and anti-Muslim discrimination. Just how much longer do you expect that Muslims will tolerate such treatment?
Allahu akbar
This innocent man is the victim of typical American racism and anti-Muslim discrimination. Just how much longer do you expect that Muslims will tolerate such treatment?
Allahu akbar
Posted by Reza at April 26, 2004 03:55 PM
And just what do you think the Muslims are gonna do about this alleged racism? And I do mean alleged.....not a damn thing...Look moron, When someone breaks the law, they're not a victim of racism, they're a criminal. Muslims have made it clear that their word is worthless, and that they simply can't be trusted.
Maybe the Muslims should stop giving us their interpretation of our constitution and just shut the hell up. Do something different for a change and follow the rules like everyone else, for you are obviously far from being above the law.....as is evidenced in this article.
Better yet, maybe they should all pack their paper sacks and get the hell out of our country. No one asked them to infest our country, for they're a drain....Stop playing the victim, for you are the perpetrator. How much longer do you think Americans are going to tolerate the stiff necked, arrogant behavior of you rakes?
Your "Constitution" is mere man-made law. Eventually it will be replaced by devine law (Sharia). As for this being "your" country, know that the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah (swt).
I'll have your eyes in a jar before any of your dream comes true.....Islam will long be finished before any of this fantasy of your comes true.
Mere-man made law......American made law.....Are you somewhere in the US you little rodent?
The imam concerned faces the double jeopardy of not being black, but also Muslim. Any civilised nation would have offered him asylum from the racist lunatics you Peterists and your Jew masters are.
Shame them couple of goofy slaves in the Whitehouse can't face the facts instead of being paraded around as if they were an example to all the black people. Go to hell Amerizio.
There is this American who sought asylum in Scotland after writing a book that did not pleased the Jews. So why are they deporting the black guy only?
Dhimis shall overcome the infidels
Hoodie,
Read this.
R Spencer:After all, I told one Muslim on this board that I was in favor of "a flowering, a renaissance, in the Muslim world, including full equality of rights for women and non-Muslims in Islamic societies: freedom of conscience, equality in laws regarding legal testimony, equal employment opportunities, etc."
Hood Jihadi: Oh that is so heartening. But eat this example. There is this French international soccer player(Desaily) who currently plays for Chelsea owned by a Jew who looted the Russian people so badly, I saw him handing out bread to some Caucasians like they were in Ethiopia or somewhere like that.
Anyways, this soccer player has a distinguishable career many players would only dream of. But last week, a prominent soccer pundit/guru(R Atkinson, Jewish) called him "nigger". You see, what Jihadi knows is that no matter what comes out of a Whiteman wannabe like you; they will always be just that.
And while your people are getting fatter by the minute, you push one economic sanction after another on poor and weak people in Muslim countries. Now what kind of "Equality" is that suppose to be. How can they be bothered about other silly things like Gay Rights when their stomachs are itching?
Plus, Saudi women don't complain because they purchase the car and get an illegal immigrant just like your mullatos to drive them around for ten dollars a day.
Dear hoodlum,
Why are you so scared of jews? Maybe you wash dishes in a jewish-owned restaurant? Maybe you need an education to improve yourself, and I don't mean memorizing the koran. You don't understand double jeopardy, it means being tried more than once for a crime.
Muslims are free to get the hell out of the US and all western countries. They can go live in caves and huts with no electricity or water in the Middle East. Most Muslims are hypocrits who prefer to live in comfort among the infidels. While they complain about mistreatment and racism. But if Muslims choose to stay here they are going to obey the law and respect the rights of men and women of other faiths. Whether they want to or not. Any Muslims who can't do that will suffer the consequences which could include jail time and/or deportation.
Hey KC
I learnt my Arabic from my pen pals, but I am so sorry to tell your illiterate pink behind this:
Black isn’t Black in Arabic.
The Sura he is talking about says "darkened", not black.
And the white, is "light". There is no colour involved, did your hear that?
Black NOT EQUAL TO DARK
White NOT EQUAL TO LIGHT "iftin"
BOI, I wonder how much they paid that Nigerian to read your scripts?
And I also wanted to tell you about your Peterist friends and their humanitarian activities while I was reading the BBC world section.
Religious row over aid in Somalia (BBC)
Thousands of Somalis have marched through streets in Mogadishu protesting at what they say is an attempt by aid agencies to spread Christianity.
___
Those poor people need water, food but - What did you give them? Discount Crosses. The only ones who gain are the fat pinky guys raising money for "projects" only to give it back to their stomachs. Please get out of Africa, you are not wanted: you are greedy racist.
Yee-haw, Hoodie's back. Spouting trash again. Potty mouth, potty mouth. What he says is of no consequence. One only has to consider the source. It's amazing that all he can talk about are Jews and people of African origin. He's such an anti-Semite and even a racist as he uses the "n" word and refers to caucasions and mulattos. Race seems to be very important to him as if he not only divides up the world according to religious affiliation but to racial origin. No brotherhood of man for our dear old Hoodie. He has indicted himself with the words in this post alone.
Now if we go back to his old post, imagine what we could find. I know, "In service to Infidels." That's my favorite. Instead of being thankful for having employment, Hoodie criticizes and insults his employer.
Hoodie the Tiresome, go play somewhere else.
basil: You don't understand double jeopardy, it means being tried more than once for a crime.
Hood Jihadi: Sorry to have stressed you, but haven't we Muslims committed the crime of "living". You want us all Dead or in penitentiary huh?
I well versed in criminology and law thanks to dhimi status basil. Don't you tell me about terminologies used in those departments.
I would like to thank Mr Spencer for allowing comments while still controlling the overall tone.
When Reza and his ilk post comments, we can see the thinking behind the news items themselves. "Thinking" may not be the correct term, of course. Their arguments are illogical, circular, biased, and highly repetitive. They display a lack of self-examination peculiar to fanatics. They lack self-awareness and critical reasoning skills. They are, simply, a good example of where Islam, and muslim nations, have been going since its inception.
My work takes me to muslim countries, and I can say that while most muslims I meet are not hostile to me personally, they allow these extremists to frame their political and social structures. In short, they allow the koran-memorizing loonies to define what it means to be muslim.
I do believe that Islam stifles creativity, innovation, and critically, womens and non-muslim rights. Every muslim nation I visit has a core group of non-muslims who run the businesses that keep the country going. Why? Because muslims are incapable of doing the most important work themselves. There are so many religious restrictions on their activities, and their educations are often religious-based. So you have a situation where non-muslims, who often are not permitted to receive slots in universities which are reserved for muslims, go overseas. They then return to run businesses, with muslims at the lowest levels of the organization!
Muslim nations succeed (to use the term loosely) IN SPITE of Islam, not because of it. The stronger the jihadi mindset, the worse off the nation is. It is a self-perpetuating disaster that has been going on for more than a thousand years. Reza thinks my grandchildren will be muslims. I think his grandchildren will live without electricity and running water. Islam is the weight that is pulling them down. I pity your grandchildren Reza.
Of course muslims also kill each other:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040426/wl_mideast_afp/jordan_attacks_qaeda
AMMAN (AFP) - Jordan foiled an Al-Qaeda chemical bomb plot against the intelligence services HQ using trucks packed with 20 tons of explosives that could have killed as many as 80,000 people, security officials said Monday.
This operation, which would have been the largest in the history of the kingdom in terms of its volume and number of victims, would have killed 80,000 Jordanian citizens," the report said.
Religion of peace? Oh, and hoodie, being in jail doesn't make you a legal authority. And why are you using dhimi incorrectly?
cheers
basil:And why are you using dhimi incorrectly?
Hood Jihadi:
Since when was dhimi English or did you Peterists received the monopoly of the word.
Dhimi is a person of "suspicion" or somebody who can't be trusted (for reasons to do with prejudice). Just like when a Jihadi enters a room full of ham tossers, and the room goes quiet - that is being a dhimmi.
Today, we Muslims are being stopped and searched, our women molested by smelly fat police men etc.
At least white people get beaten up at night when they are drunk, but it’s drastic when they mess with Jihadis.
I even had an uncle in prison for a whole day just because an old lady made complaints about him making noises when he is leaving home for the early morning prayers.
WTF is a "Peterist"?
Hoodie - Wrong again! Wrong, wrong, wrong.
You speak of dhimmis as if you could be one. This term only applies to non-Muslims, those that have been subdued by Muslims, humiliated, and have accepted their humiliation. Your are right. It is a perjorative term, but one that is used by Muslims against non-Muslims. Thus, the people in the cases that you cite are not dhimmis.
As anyone can be a terrorist, even a woman, there is no harm in having "fat, smelly policemen" check them out, and white, black, Hispanic, and Asian people all are subject to the law, which, by the way is the same for Muslims. Of course, you believe yourself to be above the law.
Robert:WTF is a "Peterist"?
Hood Jihadi:
This "Christianity" you have is just Judaism wrapped for the consumption of lazy tribalist forest people in Europe. Peter sold you a beautiful art of forgery, but humanist in all his best efforts. All he did was to give Judaism to "man-kind" rather than the chauvinist and racist "chosen people".
If only Peter knew the same forest people will one day make Christ look like a gay Caucasian.
Here is some pork for you hoodlum.
The word "dhimmitude" as a historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye'or in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination.
http://www.dhimmitude.org/
epg: You speak of dhimmis as if you could be one. This term only applies to non-Muslims..
Hood Jihadi: Ofcos, the suspicious people will be non-Muslims in a Muslim country judging by your love in here. But now I am in infidelland, I have become the dhimi because I am not gay or some cow loving freak.
Please, understand the differences between context and content. Dhimi applies to me now; the dhimi the Jews tell you about is in the past.
OK, OK ... I'm not sure why I was brought into this discussion or what my earlier exchange with Spencer has to do with the case of Imam Ramee Muhammed. I don't know of this imam, but two things should be taken into account.
First, if you search on Google for his name, you will find only 15 references to his name (with three ways of spelling Muhammad). None of them have to do with extremism. He was featured by The Revival, a website linked to the Minhaj al-Qur'an organisation which is linked to a perfectly legal Pakistani political party, Pakistan Awami Tehreek. They are definitely not in the same league as Abu Hamza and other rabble rousers like them.
Second, the Sunday Express is owned by Richard Desmond. Desmond was a porn baron until a few months ago when he sold off his porn rags like Asian Babes in order to gain "respectability" in order to acquire the Daily Telegraph. A few days ago he confirmed his new-found respectability in a board meeting with Telegraph executives (his company shares a printing plant with the Telegraph group) at which he called one of the Telegraph execs a "miserable piece of s**t" and former proprietor Conrad Black as a "f***ing fat crook", mocked the Telegraph for considering a take-over bid from a German company, and invited the Telegraph executive outside for a fight when he objected. His Express papers are the worst tabloid rags in this country - they are a parody of tabloid journalism but actually they are serious. They run ceaseless vendettas against immigrants and their reporting is wildly simplistic to say the least.
In reply to "Susan", Jane Adler, whatever your name is, what you say about Christians in Muslim countries like Turkey is inaccurate. Muslims in Turkey suffer far more persecution than Christians, along with Kurds and anyone else who disagrees with the dominant secular Turkish-nationalist ideology which is enforced by national security courts controlled by a treacherous military. As for my mother and the rest of my family, they have lived quite happily with my religion for five years, and I became Muslim after personal investigation. No-one preached Islam to be at school or college.
basil:The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected".
Hood Jihadi: You should now give this subject a rest. That is because the word the illiterate Jew used was the politely correct word "protected". The old street Arabic of dhimi was "suspect". That is people who the Islamists were scared of giving them control because of dual loyalties.
My dear Reza,
"Just what illegal acts has Imam Muhammed committed? In fact, what are the illegal acts of which he is accused? In both cases, the answer is 'none'."
Indeed. So isn't his claim that he will face persecution just grandstanding?
My dear Yusuf Smith,
"OK, OK ... I'm not sure why I was brought into this discussion or what my earlier exchange with Spencer has to do with the case of Imam Ramee Muhammed."
It actually has nothing to do with Ramee Muhammed. I was using it to illustrate different ideas of what it means to be a "moderate," and why Ramee Muhammed might still find himself uncomfortable with American society even if he considers himself a moderate.
Cordially,
Robert Spencer
"people who the Islamists were scared of giving them control because of dual loyalties."
We feel the same way about muslims.
Black is the absence of color. It can reflect no light at all. Such is the heart of Jihad.
No light
No life
I see why you love death.
Hi Yusuf, thanks for your reply. You wrote above: "In reply to "Susan", Jane Adler, whatever your name is, what you say about Christians in Muslim countries like Turkey is inaccurate. Muslims in Turkey suffer far more persecution than Christians, along with Kurds and anyone else who disagrees with the dominant secular Turkish-nationalist ideology which is enforced by national security courts controlled by a treacherous military. As for my mother and the rest of my family, they have lived quite happily with my religion for five years, and I became Muslim after personal investigation. No-one preached Islam to be at school or college."
First, Turkey: http://www.jubileecampaign.co.uk/world/tur11.htm
Persecution of Christians in Turkey is so widespread it has been debated in the House of Lords. At the beginning of this century 50 percent of the people living in Turkey were non-Muslims; today they account for about 2 percent. What happened to them?
Regarding your mom and family, do they know you advocate that they live under an apartheid-like legal system under which they would have few human rights? From The Reliance of the Traveller translated by your Sheikh Keller:
"Non-Muslims' testimony in court is invalid:
o24.2 Legal testimony is only acceptable from a witness who...(e) is religious (meaning upright) (and Muslim), for Allah Most High says, "Let those of rectitude among you testify" (Koran 65:2), and unbelief is the vilest form of corruption, as goes without saying)."
So under the sharia law that you have stated you prefer above the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, if yuor mom or another family member was assaulted by a Muslim, they would not receive justice, as they would not be able to testify against their assailant -- because they are of course, "corrupt" as all unbelievers are. Shafi law spells it out very clear; there are many other discriminatory, racist laws against non-Muslims in Reliance of the Traveller.
So you would prefer to live under a system which would declare open season for criminals against your own non-Muslim loved ones. Answer a straight yes or no, please, no distractions, evasions or diversions wanted.
From your website it seems like you are a nice young man who loves his mother. What kind of a young man would want his own non-Muslim mother to be treated like a second-class citizen and open to such gross abuses by the state?
Since it seems like you love her I can only conclude that you are indeed brainwashed, as you prefer your "perfect" legal system to her well-being and that of your non-Muslim friends and relatives.
Susan,
Islam requires muslims to hate nonmuslims. I asked the imam. Oh, and this includes your nonmuslim family. charming isn't it?
"Islam instructs us to hate the ways of the Kuffaar which are against the
Shari'ah.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT. "
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1302
Reza,
If arab muslims desire to live in an islamic nation, why do they not go Iran? Why didn't they all go to Afghanistan when the Taliban was in power? Now that was a pure islamic state!
By all accounts, next to Israel, America is the most hated country in the arab world. Why would arab muslims immigrate to America? Seriously, why?
Basil: Mufti Desai is a Salafi. Yusuf Smith will undoubtedly loudly proclaim that he doesn't follow Salafi thought (although, according to the Korean, fellow Muslims are obliged to accept as a Muslim anyone who says they are a Muslim.)
We need to demonstrate to him that non-Salafi Muslims are just as racist as Salafi/Wahabbi Muslims are.
That is why I posted the racist excerpt from the Reliance of the Traveller translated by "moderate" Sufi Sheikh Keller.
We will see whether or not Yusuf is willing to denounce the racist/apartheid-like aspects of Islamic sharia.
Sadly, my guess is no. This young man will go on denouncing Wester "racism" while not realizing that he himself is a kind of racist for advocating a system of law that treats certain classes of people as sub-human.
While we are exchanging enlightening rethorics on this forum,the islamization of America has begun,or more precisely has been imposed on us,by some cowardly city councilmen in Michigan. They have voted to change the noise ordinance in favor of muslim activists who will be able to use loudspeakers to call for prayer 5 times daily, RIGHT HERE IN THE USA.
The judeo-christian moral values of our ancestors are being taken away from us ,one by one,by civil rights organizations such as ACLU,by muslim activists,by left wing liberal/fascists,and the way things look,these values will only be a distant memory for future generation.
New mosques are being built in our communities,while churches are being closed down.
Scores of muslim immigrants are being allowed to enter our country,by irresponsible politicians that would sell their mothers just to win a few more votes.
The war in Iraq is being faught without a clearly stated purpose our military is more concerned with being politically corect,than winning.
The enemy is killing our soldiers while hiding inside mosques and we are not leveling those snake nests,for fear of upseting the muslims.
Let`s not kid ourselves...if we don`t make a radical change in the strategy against such a deadly enemy ,the muslims will win,they will win big and they will win soon.
We need our leaders to define who the enemy is:ISALM.
We need our leaders to give the military the green light to level Falujah,and all of Iraq,along with Siria and Iran,if necessary.
We need our leaders to close the borders and to stop muslim immigration immediatelly and we need to keep muslims out of our country,meaning turist visas,student visas,etc.
We need to close down all mosques and the construction of new ones should be out of the question.
We need to deport all muslims that have the remotest connection with terrorists.
If we do all of the above and if we start doing it immediately,maybe,just maybe we have a chance to win.
But if we continue to allow the national suicide that is currently going on,and has already started in Michigan,we have to prepare the turbans and the burqas for our sons and daughters,for the sharia is on its way to America.
Susan: "Persecution of Christians in Turkey is so widespread it has been debated in the House of Lords. At the beginning of this century 50 percent of the people living in Turkey were non-Muslims; today they account for about 2 percent. What happened to them?"
This was done as part of a population exchange with Greece which was carried out by Mustafa Kemal "Ataturk", the secular nationalist despot of the 1920s. The Greeks were sent to Greece in return for Turks already living in Greece who were resettled in western Turkey. This was nothing to do with "Islamic" persecution; Ataturk wanted to make his country "European" which is why he banned Ottoman head-dress and forced men to wear top hats (and you can't do the prostration in a top hat) and changed the language, removing a lot of the Persian and Arabic words and importing a Latin-based script. Ataturk wanted a one-nation country and the persecution of the Muslim Kurds is part of his odious legacy.
Susan: Regarding your mom and family, do they know you advocate that they live under an apartheid-like legal system under which they would have few human rights? From The Reliance of the Traveller translated by your Sheikh Keller: ...
This book is primarily a summary of devotional law; the exact rulings of when and why a particular class of person can testify is left to other books like Imam Mawardi's "Rulings of Governance" (Ahkam al-Sultaniyya). Remember that personal law matters were left to the religious authorities whether they be the Church, Rabbis, or whoever. I am sure it does not mean "open season" for criminals on non-Muslims. The fact is that if two upright male Muslims, without relation to the plaintiff and without interest, testify that a man is guilty, he is found guilty. This does not go for any other class of Muslim or a non-Muslim.
The reason for this is that a Muslim knows that if he gives false testimony and someone is killed, then he will suffer dearly for this in the Hereafter, and he is not under any illusion that treachery of this sort is permissible. It's not. (And many miscarriages of justice have happened in the UK due to people standing in the witness box and lying under oath, notably policemen.)
Susan: "Mufti Desai is a Salafi. Yusuf Smith will undoubtedly loudly proclaim that he doesn't follow Salafi thought (although, according to the Korean, fellow Muslims are obliged to accept as a Muslim anyone who says they are a Muslim.)"
Mufti Desai is not a "Salafi" at all. He is a Deobandi, from South Africa although the name Desai is Gujarati. They do not have Wahhabi beliefs but share some legal rulings with them. As for this fatwa, it is correct in that we hate the ways of the unbelievers but this is not a personal hatred. Of course, people do love their parents which is why they wish for them to accept their religion and achieve salvation.
Reza: The world belongs to HaKadosh Baruch Hu (The Holy One Blessed Be He) - or as most of you say, G-d. And G-d did create the world - as shown in Bereshit (Genesis). And as the Creator, gave the Land of Israel to the descendents of Ya'akov (who was renamed by G-d Yisrael). The descendants of Yishmael were given another land.
These terrorists should not be deported - they should be arrested and put on an island somewhere until they die. And pigs should be put on the island! If they're deported, they can continue their 'holy' jihad somewhere else!
I testify that there is no god.
if he exist and is omnipotent and wants all infidels dead then let him wave his mighty hand and kill. Pretty weak and insecure "god" that needs a bunch of rag clad illiterates to do his dirty work.
Yusuf, thanks again for your prompt response. You wrote: "This book is primarily a summary of devotional law; the exact rulings of when and why a particular class of person can testify is left to other books like Imam Mawardi's "Rulings of Governance" (Ahkam al-Sultaniyya). Remember that personal law matters were left to the religious authorities whether they be the Church, Rabbis, or whoever. I am sure it does not mean "open season" for criminals on non-Muslims. The fact is that if two upright male Muslims, without relation to the plaintiff and without interest, testify that a man is guilty, he is found guilty. This does not go for any other class of Muslim or a non-Muslim."
No, not true. Non-Muslims under Ottoman rule were not allowed to testify against Muslims in any court case, even civil cases. They had to bribe a Muslim witness to stand in for them in order to have any chance at all at justice; frequently they did not obtain it. It was indeed "open season" for criminals to take advantage of Christians under most of Ottoman Rule. It was the sharia burden they complained about most loudly (except for the devshirme, the forced enslavement of each Christian family's eldest son.)
In the mid-19th Century Christians were finally allowed to testify in court cases against Muslims as a result of the Tanzimat Reforms implemented under pressure from France and Britian. http://i-cias.com/e.o/tanzimat.htm
The Tanzimat reforms guaranteed that all subjects of the Sultan would have equality under the law regardless of religion, race, or ethnic background. The Tanzimant reforms were bitterly resented by the Islamic hierarchy because for the first time under Ottoman Rule, Christians and other non-Muslims were the legal equal of Muslims.
I notice that you characteristaclly ignore links showing that Christians continue to be persecuted in Turkey, as you ignore anything that you can't respond to.
You wrote: "This was done as part of a population exchange with Greece which was carried out by Mustafa Kemal "Ataturk", the secular nationalist despot of the 1920s. The Greeks were sent to Greece in return for Turks already living in Greece who were resettled in western Turkey. This was nothing to do with "Islamic" persecution; Ataturk wanted to make his country "European" which is why he banned Ottoman head-dress and forced men to wear top hats (and you can't do the prostration in a top hat) and changed the language, removing a lot of the Persian and Arabic words and importing a Latin-based script. Ataturk wanted a one-nation country and the persecution of the Muslim Kurds is part of his odious legacy."
As I demonstrated above, the "Europeanization" of The Ottoman Empire began long before Ataturk appeared on the scene. The population exchange was done for the same reason as the partition of India: because Muslims can't live as equals with peoples of other religions. No need for a population exchange if Muslims were capable of living peacefully with people of other religions on an equal basis. It's yet to be demonstrated that they have ever done this.
You wrote:
"Mufti Desai is not a "Salafi" at all. He is a Deobandi, from South Africa although the name Desai is Gujarati. They do not have Wahhabi beliefs but share some legal rulings with them. As for this fatwa, it is correct in that we hate the ways of the unbelievers but this is not a personal hatred. Of course, people do love their parents which is why they wish for them to accept their religion and achieve salvation."
Thank you for clearing up Mufti Desai's sectarian orientation. I knew it was some kind of uber-hateful sect but Deobandism didn't occur to me. Given his name it should have occurred to me.
If it is "correct" for you to hate the "ways" of the "unbelievers", then you really have no business complaining about the people on this website posting that they hate the ways of Islam. After all, it's not a PERSONAL hatred; we just hate your racist, apartheid-like mindset.