"My God, bin Laden is so handsome"
From the New York Times: glorification of jihad and Osama among Saudis.
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia, April 22 — On Wednesday morning, just hours before a suicide bomber demolished a Saudi police building in downtown Riyadh, the family of a young man was accepting congratulations for his death in the jihad over the border in Iraq, the one that enjoys no small support here."He went to Iraq seeking martyrdom because of the recent events there," Abdullah al-Enezi said of his younger brother Majid, who was training to be a computer technician.
"America's unjust policy toward the Muslims is the main reason," Mr. Enezi said by telephone from the family home in Al Kharj, a town just south of Riyadh. "Everyone feels this humiliation; he's not alone, there are so many young men who wish they could cross over into Iraq to join the jihad, but they can't. Thank God he was blessed with the ability to go."
In Saudi Arabia, a strategic ally of the United States, violence against the occupation in Iraq is seen by many as jihad, or a holy struggle, but virtually no one accepts violence as jihad when it unrolls here at home, in the heart of what is supposed to be the most Muslim of countries.
In Iraq, attacks by American troops serve as evidence to some that the United States occupation of a Muslim land must be reversed. Requests for God to avenge American actions pour down from mosque minarets, and some women university students sport Osama bin Laden T-shirts under their enveloping abayas to show their approval for his calls to resist the United States.
But many Saudis consider the attack here on Wednesday a shocking and unsettling crime, especially since the attackers chose for their first major government target an office building that virtually every adult male must visit to collect a license or car plates.
A group calling itself the Brigade of the Two Holy Mosques posted an unverifiable claim of responsibility on two Web sites on Thursday, bragging — in language that closely echoed Al Qaeda's — that the attack rained devastation on the "criminal, apostate" Saudi government and warning of further strikes. Some viewed the claim as dubious because it did not name the suicide bomber.
The toll rose to five overnight, apart from the bomber, after a police captain died, the Interior Ministry announced. Saudi television also showed a pitched gunfight between security forces and militants in a residential neighborhood in the coastal city of Jidda in which three militants were reported killed.
"May God curse you, you vermin, you people of filth and not jihad," said a posting on one of the same Web sites where the responsibility claim was posted, adding, in case anyone missed the point, a picture of coffins draped in American flags over the caption, "This is jihad."
Experts on the topic believe that most Saudis do not view the two battles as even remotely related.
"When people see Israeli operations in Palestine and the American cruelty in Iraq, they feel angry and frustrated," said Abdullah Bejad al-Oteibi, a former fundamentalist now working as a legal researcher. "They cannot control their anger and they admire bin Laden, so that is why many people volunteer for jihad. But when there are operations here, people feel angry and betrayed."
No officials or analysts have a firm command of how many operate in either sphere. Although it is likely they rely on similar theological underpinnings to justify their actions, anyone acting within Saudi Arabia would have to be far more radical to overcome the heavy sanctions against killing fellow Muslims.
"They might be the same group of people, from the same pool of jihadis," said Jamal Khashoggi, an expert on Islamic groups and an adviser to Prince Turki al-Faisal, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to London.
"But to recruit somebody to fight in Saudi Arabia is way more difficult than to fight in Iraq," he noted. "You have to be really militant to believe that a country where religion is practiced day and night is apostate."
The difficulty, some experts believe, refers back to a slightly different interpretation of the concept of jihad espoused by the Wahhabi teachings that hold sway in the kingdom. Whereas most sects in Islam view jihad as necessary only when attacked, the Wahhabis view it as a means to spread their religion.
"You should never initiate fighting without a reason; you undertake jihad when you are `defending' an Islamic nation, like the situation in Iraq or Palestine," said Abdel Rahem al-Lahem, a lawyer and specialist in militant groups.
The Wahhabi school, on the other hand, believes in smiting one's enemy first, Mr. Lahem said, although senior clerics preached against that idea last year after attacks here killed Muslims.
Saudi Arabia has a troubled history with preaching jihad, which was officially sanctioned against the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980's. The ruling Saud family thought it could rid itself of the radical fringe, but instead their sponsorship now haunts them. Afghanistan became the training camp for elements now trying to overthrow them.
Hence there is no similar mobilization for going to Iraq.
"We do not believe in the American invasion of Iraq, it is illegal and illegitimate," said Soliman al-Oadah, a cleric once known for expressing hard-line views but whose pronouncements have grown more moderate in recent years. "We see that allowing people to go to Iraq has many negative points. For example, when the war is over, they will be trained and shaped in a way that could go out of control. They might go back to their home countries and act in bad way."
Fearing such an outcome, Saudi officials say they are ensuring that the long border with Iraq is sealed. They have installed heat sensors to detect movement, one official said, noting that events in Iraq are likely to inspire more problems at home.
"They can't do anything over there, and they think Arab governments are not doing anything," said Sayid A. al-Harthi, a senior adviser to Prince Nayif bin Abdel Aziz al-Saud, the interior minister. "They are consumed with anger which they transfer to their own government. If we let them, thousands would go, not just from Saudi Arabia, but from every Arab country."
Instead, the government has been trying to let off steam by, for example, allowing otherwise tightly controlled mosque sermons to inveigh heavily against the Americans.
"Oh God, avenge America, oh God, avenge its allies," the prayer leader at Prince Sultan bin Abdel Aziz mosque in a northern Riyadh neighborhood said last Friday. "Oh God, order your soldiers to show them torture, oh God divide them, oh God avenge them for what they are corrupting in Iraq."
Mr. Enezi, whose brother, 25, was killed fighting the Americans last Saturday, said he was unaware of any cleric swaying his brother's mind. He simply left one day about a month ago, entering Iraq from Syria.
"It was very normal, just like any other tourist crossing to Iraq," said Mr. Enezi. He called periodically to check in, and then his friends called to say he had died in a firefight with American marines near Qaim on the Syrian border. He was buried there.
"People are calling all the time to congratulate us — crying from happiness and envy," Mr. Enezi said.
Even among prosperous, upper-middle-class Saudis it is possible to hear support for such actions, especially after the string of events in the past month with the killing of two Hamas leaders in Gaza and President Bush's endorsement of Israeli plans to keep West Bank settlements and to prevent the long-cherished return of Palestinian refugees to Israel. Often the anger takes the form of endorsing Mr. bin Laden's calls for fighting the Americans.
"Young people are wearing T-shirts with bin Laden's picture on them just the way people used to wear pictures of Che Guevara," said Tufful al-Oqbi, a student at King Saud University. "It's simply because he is the only one resisting. Even if we reject his methods, it's because there is no other way, because this is the only way."
Fowziyah Abukhalid, a sociology professor at the university, has noticed a parallel phenomenon among her students. "Many young women are saying `My God, bin Laden is so charming,' or `My God, bin Laden is so handsome,' " she said. "He is politically appealing, that is why they view him as handsome."
Such feelings are volatile though, depending on whether the attacks are inside or outside the kingdom. "People literally change their minds and feelings every day about bin Laden," Mr. Oteibi said.
RIYADH, 21 April 2004 — Crown Prince Abdullah, deputy premier and commander of the National Guard, yesterday reaffirmed that Islam is a religion of peace and moderation.
The crown prince was delivering the inaugural address at an international conference on Islam and terrorism, organized by Imam Muhammad ibn Saud Islamic University.
“Islam condemns all forms of terrorism and we must strive to correct wrong perceptions about our religion,” he said. “This is my vision.”
******Another example of these fat drunks with fan belts on their heads talking out both sides of their mouths..They are truly a sickening lot.***
Mend your ways, as they are the wicked ways of Rahab the harlot. The ways of fools and treachery. Stop your fury, islamics and christians.
Awe, you are led into the slaughter house.
Traitors are leading you both to annihilation, and there could be only one winner.
I'll paste my message from another article:
"To ted:
The Trojan Horse breeds trojan horse.
Rahab ancestor to Jesus is nothing but a cunning indication of what Christianity WAS all about. A trojan horse like Rahab.
An ideology of betrayal. It imploded the Roman Empire like bolshevism imploded old Russia.
Awe to you, for not understanding...
How can a rational westerner call Rahab's treachery (SHE allowed the slaughter of her people) faithfulness?
The ones who say and believe in this, they are going to ruin America without blinking, witout remorse. Only the Call is to be made, and they'll allow spies in their homes. Traitors! Holy-Traitors.
Rahab had a God of her own, good or bad.
The Jews had their God, good or bad.
Each god was inextricably connected with each nation's/race's being.
Rahab was not faithful, she was a weakling betraying her god. Which was subsequently smashed and erased by the Jewish God.
You believe now in the Jewish God because your ancestors were brainwashed and their societies broken long ago...
The Islamics long understood this. Their Mohammed man-made a Religion because the jews man-made their religion too. Mohammed knew it was mumbo-jumbo and it was all about war and politics.
Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is.
Awe to you all... the trumpets want another world war. Again. Again "for survival".
Awe to those who have no memory..."
H2O:
What exactly are you talking about in your pseudo Old Testament style of writing?
Speak in plain English and get to the point.
Mike H
Now that "their ox is being gored," some Saudis are condemning jihad. (Why hypocrisy (in the Western sense of course.) What sweet irony. Saudis have been funding and exporting that vile meme, Wahabbism for decades. I bet they never dreamed that "the chickens would come home to roost."
The House of Saud has turned a blind eye in hopes of "peaceful coexistence" with their radical citizens and clerics, but now they themselves are not radical enough.
Instead of covertly (as if anyone didn't understand) fighting the West through their hired jihadists, it wouldn't take much of a leap to see them begin to militarize in partnership with other M.E. countries in order to purge not only the land of the three mosques, but the whole area of the Infidel. Bin Laden is warning the Saudis of their dhimmi status as they have not lived up to Islam's obligations.
(Do you think I used enough cliches?)
To Mike H:
I'm saying that this is a struggle between 2 foreign fanaticisms, and we are just a tool.
Maccabean book. Fanaticism as its highest. No TNT, ofcourse. Reading it is like reading the islamics messages on MEMRI.
Same ideology. Man-made, self-centered. Self-righteous, expansionist.
We are the entrapped fools and tools of one of these 2 fanaticisms.
I'll paste from a previous post:
"Evangelical Christians are nothing but second-hand jews. "Rahabs". Useful idiots.
The actual term is christian-zionists.
There's nothing wrong with a jewish zionist. Praise to him. Its natural.
But a christian zionist is only a "dhimmi" of judaism. He betrays quickly, faithfully and wholeheartedly his mother nation.
When an american says God Bless America he thinks about the Creator, the supreme universal God. A philosophical God, whose strength lies within us all.
When a christian zionist says the same thing, he actually subordinates himself to the Jewish God.
In the past, each nation/race had its particular God. And that particular nation/race was chosen by that God. It was THEIRS. Each had a natural connection with its naturally philosophically elaborated God. If the people that elaborated that philosophy died, their God died too ... yet it was the Tribal God, not the Universal God. The Unmovable one.
When a person subordinates to another people's God, that person may find in it some resemblance with its former God in general philosophical terms, but the new God is physically bound to the people from which it stemmed, and its plan is bound to them only.
A Christian Zionist worships the jewish people, as this is the only way to reach closeness with the foreign God he has adopted. He becomes a "Rahab". He is an idol worshipper.
The Idol was the term to describe not a false god, as the term is useless, but a FOREIGN God. We believe in God, our own, the others are Idols, though they may have something philosophically in common.
The Jewsih God also clearly establishes the need for his people's racial purity (Deut.), the need for living space etc.
What did our old Gods prescribed to us?
What did they tell?
And who stole them from us, what fanatical self-righteouss ideology?
It doesnt matter. We see the clear result -- the supremacy of the Jewish God over silly minds in the West. Their subordination to another people's plans.
THEIR MORAL AND INTELLECTUAL FAILURE.
Awe, to you "Rahabs", you know not what self-hating poison you drink!"
H20, if you can't spell/pronounce/read a damn word just leave it alone. "Awe" = marvel, wonder. "Woe" = sorrow, trouble, travail is the word you're looking for, nitwit.
Islamic society is sick, seriously so, and the virus is Islam itself.
Helen, I know what I'm saying, thank you very much,goyim! Its AWE. Like in shock and awe, not shock and woe. OK?
Second, who said Islam society is healthy? Me? Dont think so...
Here,nitwit full of pumped hatred, thats what I wrote for you all:
"I'm no islamic and no christian zionist.
You attack only one side of the problem. There are dhimmis. But there are also "Rahabs".
When your superpower is no longer useful or changes its ways, they will be activated, and your walls will be shattered on our Call. They, the Rahabs are the Trojans in your midst.
Yet you understand not. And you laugh.
Awe to you!
We were safe behind the Ottoman Empire too, and the christian were the targets of our zeal, as they were then our inquisitorial enemies. We heated up the muslims then, you fools, and crushed christians! It was a "war of survival", as was the last one.
Then the Christian Religion was a fake one and islamics were our brethren.
True and false, good and bad, chosen and unchosen.
Subjective considerations.
And yet the "Rahabs" bow before them. Believe what is written. Yea, see not and yet believe...
Foolish Rahabs... Hahaha.
It shall be written that during the Holocaust we were saved by Our God. Verily, as we ARE the embodyment of our God. He speaks through us.
And thus the future Rahabs will tremble and betray, as what we say mythically, will be historically accurate.
Though we were saved by our own Power and influence, and silly rahabs.
Its all about Power. And the weaklings will worship it, because they understand it not. They understand the iron rod and they worship it.
Awe to all! Its coming."
H20, just another David Koresh. Just another Jim Jones. Dolt.
H2O...You have got to be joking...Only a deluded fool would attempt to sully the name and reputation of Rahab...Rahab was Faithful to God (THE ONLY GOD THE GREAT I AM AKA JESUS)and His People and Is rewarded for that faith with salvation from the just recompense of the pagans she was living among. She was also blessed to be included in the Lineage of JESUS!
If the liars and plagerists that copied your terrorists handbook (AKA the quran) were honest or literate they would not have gotten the Old Testament so twisted...But then if they were honest they would not be ripping off another religon to create their own Huh?
Why does the quran call Mary the Mother of Jesus and Miriam the Sister of Moses the same woman?? The answer is simple...It is just another instance of your stupidity! The Two women existed 1500 years apart!! But violence, stupidity and ignorance are the Hallmark of Islam and I for one am happy that we are drawing the foolish muslims out of the darkness to show the world how stupid and hostile you really are.
"The difficulty, some experts believe, refers back to a slightly different interpretation of the concept of jihad espoused by the Wahhabi teachings that hold sway in the kingdom. Whereas most sects in Islam view jihad as necessary only when attacked, the Wahhabis view it as a means to spread their religion." - NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/23/international/middleeast/23SAUD.html?ex=1083297600&en=334fd171eafd1946&ei=5062
"slightly different"
really!?
you can just see the mealy-mouthed journalist and editor cringing as they try to craft this line.
that paragraph alone
belongs under the Dhimmi Watch section
of this site.
We should have started the war on terror with the bombing of Riyadh. The Saudi government has supported and exported terror for years. In fact, make all of Saudi a parking lot and all terrost activity will stop.
no more diaperheads
Listen, folks, why do we waste so much time with the intellectual incompetents like "H2O"? If all you want to do is practice low-level debating skills, I supposed that would be OK, but if you really think 1) you are going to change their fossilized minds, or 2) you are certain that they aren't going to change yours, then why bother?
On a related issue, the other day (yesterday the 22nd?) Chaya Eitan said "Their attitudes towards death is totally at odds with the West's. A way has to be found to use this against them."
I totally agree.
A good first step would be to ignore them; stop any energy-consuming responses to them. They're not worth the time and effort, and besides, like the frustrated children they are, ignoring them will drive them nuts. Revenge! Humiliation! Outrage! And all the rest of the yadda-yadda, blat-blat. They can just kick and yell until they turn blue.
Another good thing would be to ridicule them continuously (but not in personal responses to any particular posting--like children, they just want the attention. We must begin a program of behavior modification, and ignore the stuff they throw at us to gain our attention, which they so obviously can't live without). We have a really good start at ridiculing them in this group. For example, it's got to bother some of them that they can't win any Nobel Prizes (I'm talking about the the real ones, math, physics, medicine etc., not the "Peace" prize), or invent anything worth getting a patent on, or read at the level of the West, or--well, it goes on and on. They have such pride in having had a "Golden Age," and they actually think it was their accomplishment, and not that of the Greek philosophers who influenced their pagan ancestors before the mind-numbing influence of Islam descended upon them and drove them off into the intellectual night.
A third good thing would be to create doubt in their minds about their belief system. Keep pointing out the contradictions, the errors, etc. the way you've been doing, but do it without rancor. Cast doubt on their scholarship and thinking ability. The madder they get at this, the more certain you can be that you are succeeding. I mean, how much fun can it be for them to think that maybe they will be greeted by 72 white raisins instead of 72 recycled "virgins" after they die? Better yet, if they have it all wrong, they will either end up in their own vision of eternal damnation, or just slip into eternal unawareness, the "ceasing to exist" concept of Star Trek. Now THAT's got to be scary for them!
Another good thing (I think I'm beginning to sound like Martha Stewart) would be to appeal to their women. Seriously. With few exceptions, Muslim women want their own version of the vine-covered cottage with a white picket fence--in other words, a life filled with happiness, not all this shit the Muslim men between the ages of about 14 to about 40 are causing in their lives. Women, by a wide margin, and no matter what culture they come from, are far less prone to the idiotic notion of perpetual battle and getting hurt all the time. Why bother, you ask? What good would it do, especially in a Muslim culture where wife-beating is encouraged, and a man can force his view on a woman? Well, first, he can't force his view on her, he can just keep her from expressing hers--expressing it directly, at least. Just remember the little expression, "If mama ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy." Surely, even among these idiots, there have to be a few men who would prefer a reasonably happy mama to a pissed off one. I think that ignoring 50% of the Muslim population is a BIG mistake, even if they are mere women. Never underestimate the power of a cold shoulder. Become a REAL counter-terrorist by showing the women what their lives could be like if their male counterparts didn't always try to prevent it from happening.
Another good thing would be to fight fire with fire. Instead of open, all out frontal assaults on jackasses ranging from Sadr to the block's least effective would-be terrorist, begin some highly secret, serious psy-ops of the nastier sort. For example, during WWII, which I vaguely remember, our boys would sneak into an enemy camp at night, and in the morning, the enemy would come out to find the guards out there with their throats slit. Frankly, I think an assault on selected targets with my favorite recipe of liquified pig-poop with adhesive would constitute a great psy-ops operation. Don't disregard it just because it sounds comical!
D.C., I elect you to come up with some good "fight fire with fire" goodies! Try to be subtle. Just imagine that you are the guy who has to carry out whatever mission you think of, and then tell us all about it. Really.
You're so creative when you're mad. . .
Oh, and don't forget one of the biggest and bestest counter-terrorism tools of all, the GREAT RUMOR MILL! I mean, these people actually believe the most ridiculous stuff, how can we resist the RUMOR MILL? Oh, that sounds like fun!
We can't use "stink bombs" because the insurgent/terrorists don't bathe and smell themselves and each other all day.
We were doing fine when we were on the outside working our way into Baghdad. Maybe we should move back and swarm in again. These weaklings are hiding among innocent people. I don't want to hear it from Sistani or anyone else about Holy cities. This is war, they know we'll rebuild their cities anyway.
Tear gas, sleep agents. We have night vision, I don't know if the enema.....enemy does....our problem is that we're listening to the Imams over there. Swarm everything. Give the "innocent Muslims" (women and children not able to hold a firearm) time to get out.......then kaboom.
Something's gotta happen. These pigs aren't disarming. That's as subtle as I can be. And, this isn't my first choice of ridding the world of this faction.