The caption to this AP photo reads:
Demonstrators chant 'Bomb London, bomb New York' and 'We are terrorists' outside Downing Street, London, Tuesday May 4, 2004, on the day that the British government announced that it will make a statement concerning the photographs which allegedly show British soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners. (AP Photo/John D McHugh)
Is this your freedom? In a word, no. Our freedom is more accurately illustrated by the fact that those responsible for the abuse of prisoners will be prosecuted. They are, in other words, not protected by an ideology that is immune to self-criticism and justifies abuses by theological or legal tenets, or by reference to other abuses.
Look at the signs the demonstrators are carrying. They are from Al-Muhajiroun, the notorious pro-Osama radical Muslim group in Britain that has been wanting to "bomb London, bomb New York" long before these prisoners were abused -- and long before there were even any American troops in Iraq. Their "Remember September 11" is not a memorial, it's a threat. You can read about them in Onward Muslim Soldiers, where, among other things, I record the group's leader Omar Bakri's statement that he is working for the day when the "black flag of Islam" -- the jihad flag -- will fly over #10 Downing Street. The Iraqi prisoners are just the latest pretext.
Looking at the hate in the eyes of the dude holding the sign. Man...these guys' are crazy.They're not normal. They seem to be suffering from something (maybe painful rectal itch?). Too many poppy seed muffins ?
It's laughable that these jihadists are using the caption "Is this your freedom?", as if Muslims are being discriminated against, especially considering that al-Muhajiroun openly states that all other religions must be hated by believers, and have no right to exist. On their website, they even have links to audio of speeches on that very topic.
Just another facet of the jihadist strategy of using the freedoms of the West against it. Take note, Westerners.
Freedom in Islam means the freedom to be Muslim.
Oswald Mosley and Enoch Powell must be turning over in their graves (looks good on them ;) ).
Heck, Churchill and Monty must also be spinning-"we ridded the world of fascism for this???"
Has Britain gone completely mad? These idiots are self-professed terrorists- arrest the bunch under Britain's anti-terrorism legislation. Or just have the police deem the assembly to be a riot, and sweep the bunch off the street.
Then, again, perhaps this will be the spark that finally ignites British non-muslim outrage against the islamists?
If they boast of being terrorists, they're fortunate they aren't demonstrating on my street. They'd all be sporting a new leak right about now.
When will the West wake up to the threat that is not at our doorstep, but in our home! The polically correct have confused freedom of worship with freedom to conspire to commit treason.
How complacent we've become that the enemies of all we stand for need no even think twice about proclaiming their hatred and hostile intentions in public!
Non-muslims are murdered for far less in muslim countries.
Two Muslim men stand in the rain, peacefully protesting the torture of their brothers in Iraq. The reaction here is hatred, bluster, and threats.
Just how much longer do you think that Muslims, no matter how peaceful they are, will continue to accept the oppression and abuse of the Zionists and their Crusader Christian puppets?
It is fast becoming time that you must make a choice. Embrace Islam and live in peace, or face the hatred and undying enmity of the rest of the world. Although He is compassionate and merciful, Allah's (swt) patience is coming to an end. Your false gods cannot save you from the wrath of Almighty Allah (swt).
Allahu akbar
So, Reza, you deplore the "hatred, bluster, and threats" in "the reaction here". You then go on to say that we should all embrace Islam or else "face hatred and the undying enmity" of the rest of the world. (Take that to mean "Arab-Muslim" world, NOT the rest of the world).
So, Reza, you call US hypocrites?? Holy-moley, you take the cake, girl! Stop with the hatred, bluster, and threats already!!!!
I just love it when jihadi's try to be threatening. You're just so damned cute, Reza!
Do you for one second think that we've actually taken off our gloves towards your little movement? Hell, the fact that Fallujah hasn't been erased from history should make it clear just how much restraint we've shown. Please keep in mind that we're the only culture in the world that has ever used nukes in anger, and oh yeah, we have the capability to put out the flame of Islam forever should you push us to it. And don't think that that can't happen; neither Russia nor China have any love for your little death cult and if push comes to shove they are not going to take a bullet for you.
As far as "Allah showing his patience", no thanks. I think I prefer to keep Allah as an enemy, because if the level of "advancement" and "culture" coming out of the Islamic world is any evidence, Allah hasn't done a whole hell of a lot for you.
Peace be unto you, little moon worshipper.
There's no being nice to muslims. At least if you're not a muslim.
9-11 was not the result of injustices. It was a power grab. Unmitigated and murderous. All it was intended to do was massacre American people. It was in the planning stages since approximately 1928. And it was executed to kill as many American people as possible
Can anyone imagine the uproar that would have ensued if Americans had launched an attack of such murderous magnitude?
What this tells us is that such an attack is probably what the non-muslim world will be required to do in the future to end the worldwide reign of terror these human sacrifice specialists have inflicted on the rest of the world, one which has thousands of years and threatens the world as we know it.
Ha! Why entertain this little forum troll? He’s probably not even muslim. And if he is, he's likely shia, with a name like Reza.
As far as 'embracing islam'? Not a chance. It's possible my family has been Christian for at least 50 generations. Why would I ever forsake the legacy of free will, and free thought, that Western culture with it's Christian foundation has given me?!
Islam is nothing but a political cult, self-legitimized by 'holy' mandate. The only thing it produces is brainwashed ideologues like our friend Reza. In 1000+ years it has fallen far behind the rest of the world, unable to adjust and evolve beyond its rigid structure. Hence the friction it encounters on all sides today.
I'm sure God is more pleased by those who exercise their free will to choose good over evil rather than being forced to act a certain way by a stifling belief system.
No thanks Reza, but it is you who live in darkness my friend, not us.
Oh yeah, while you're thinking of a response, I'm going to drink a beer and eat a barbecue pork sandwich, all while playing with my dog - things that will no doubt terribly displease the Almighty looking down from Heaven in disgust...
It is certainly instructive for an ignorant Muslim sand monkey like myself to read the postings of enlightened Westerners such as "Richard". The evident free will and intelligence shown in his comments certainly show the superiority of your culture.
Allahu akbar
Guys, I'm lead to believe that Reza is merely a troll, not a Muslim apologist. I refuse to believe that he/she could attempt to portray these Muhajiroun goons as "peaceful", when they're openly advocating terrorist bombings. Not to mention the snarls on their faces.
Reza, if you don't believe the Western media's portrayal of al-Muhajiroun, go to their own website at
http://muhajiroun.com/
Oh, I get it, these two peaceful guys are standing peacefully in the rain peacefully calling for cities to be peacefully bombed, is that it? I guess it's all down to a misunderstanding of mine as to the word "peace". Seems to me if a muslim gets a parking ticket it's a "war on islam". Rave on, halfwits, we're all watching, and learning, and the clock is ticking. Tick Tock, Tick Tock.
Reza
how can you say this ,,the opression ,and abuse ,muslims put on there women ,,abuse ,,teaching young children to hate the United states , in your schools ,,
yes these men may have been peacefull on this corner ,,but they want to kill infidels ,who do not convert to muslim, ,,doensnt sound very free to me ??? ,,i thought freedom meant you could choose ,, not be told what to do ,or what religion to be under ,, islam is full of lies reza ,,one day you will learn this ,,Mohhamad was a pirate , not a prophet ,, you will learn this too , ,
you push the USA too far to far and we will strike harder ,,what has Islam given to the world ,in terms of science ,biology, ,,anything positive ?????? no i dont think so ,,,,i live in phoenix the 5th largest city in the USA , i like my freedom ,, ,,,and i like the freedom the women have here too ,,to be succesfull in business ,and to go outside alone ,,and to dress as they see fit ,, there is no opression as what muslims have done in the Middle EAST ,,
i like how i live ,and enjoy my freedom ,,
MARK
,
Oh, and Reza, I may actually be feeding a troll here, but as an IT professional, I'm amused by your use of the Internet while simultaneously deriding the intellectual achievements of the West.
Do you think guys educated in a madrassa could have developed a heterogeneous global network, incorporating everything from electronic signal regulation, to 128-bit addressing, to link-state routing algorithms?
Or is it possible that Muslims like yourself are freely using the fruits of the West's labours, all the while complaining about Western decadence, inferiority, and backwardness? Reminds me of that picture of the Indonesian imam on the cell phone. Tell me once more about the scientific miracles in the Quran, and why they failed to produce a single viable technology or invention?
Someone once said "God helps those who help themselves." Muslims have refused to help themselves, and they're reaping the crop of ignorance they've sown.
Anada
Muslims are actually backward NOW, due to their corrupt and decadent governments arab countries are ruled by. Why didnt you mention a million other things the west did use to acheive technology they have now? Why didnt you mention their advances in mathematics, medicine and astrology, when the west was in the middle ages?
Nobody said the west was backward, and we do admit they have technology which i can say muslims may take a hundred years to develop. but we dont use the fruits of the west, as they get a lot of money selling it to us. All i am saying is that the west has no right to tell us what to do. They cant force their democracy in our land, and they obviously cant fight us to "liberate" our people"
thanks
Very well said Ananda. I posted this request once before and I will post it again. In the future, when referring to Islam please refer to it as the Islamic Political Movement. It's members (Muslims) are called members of the Muslim/Islam Political Movement. If the fight is against a religion, the US will never win, if it is against a political ideology, we'll have all the support we need.
Remember- Islam is not a religion it's a political movement thereatening Democracy. The Islamic Political Movement- kinda has a nice ring.
Joe H.
So, if these muslims are nothing but unthinking robots advancing a political ideology invented by a guy named Mohammed, is it fair to call them.... Mo-bots?
(Err, I'll get my coat now.)
Reza:
"Just how much longer do you think that Muslims, no matter how peaceful they are, will continue to accept the oppression and abuse of the Zionists and their Crusader Christian puppets?"
How long will it take for the muslim community to finally look in the mirror and state to themselves "we have seen the enemy and it is us"? If Allah/God is smiling so much on Islam, why are so many Islamic states such living hell-holes? Are you ignorant of what it takes to create a heightened standard of living, or is the concept of hard work and ingenuity too foreign a concept? When are you going to look at the rubble and trash in your streets and think "hey, I can do something positive in this world and pick up the trash, plant some flowers, and add some beauty in this world for others", instead of pointing across the fence and blaming someone else and expecting them to clean up your self-created mess.
Frankly, I don't believe God/Allah takes sides either way, but loves each and every one of us with a love far beyond our comprehension, no matter what our belief, and would even go so far as to say that we all go to "heaven", however we perceive it. But that may be too far fetched an idea for muslims to grasp, seeings how they fell hook, line, and sinker for Cult leader Muhommad's unfortunate tactic of playing on the fears of the masses and threatening death and hell fire if they didn't conform to what "Allah" wanted, a ploy he appears to have used everytime it was convenient for his own desires (not that that tactic hasn't been used by some Christians and other religious groups in the past too), but a scan of the majority of predominantly Christian countries shows them to be a living paradise on earth compared to anything Islam has touched. Makes you want to go Hmmmmmm!
To Reza
The facets of this diamond called humanity
are dirty, clouded by corruption,
and infinite desires,
hate like a laser beaming from their eyes,
evil eyes,
their fate to drown
in a rain of fire.
Tarek:
I haven't seen you around here before, and I can't judge you beyond this first impression, but let me say it's good to see someone with a level head on his shoulders from the Islamic side of the fence.
As for my lack of references to the scientific/technological advancement of Golden Age Islam, I'm sure you can understand that space and length constraints imposed on me prevent me from exploring every such thing. I hardly think that Muslims have some inherent mental defect; you're human beings just like us.
However, I do think that Islam, like any dogmatic religion, tends to stifle intellectual growth in much of its population; I think you'll find that many of the great thinkers you make mention of weren't the most devout Muslims. Why would one want to strive for knowledge when he has universal truth in his hands, in the form of al-Quran?
I've told people on this board that Islam needs a reformation which includes the establishment of secular educational standards, and the separation of Mosque and State. I have nothing against Islam, so long as it remains within the constraints of personal religion, and refrains entirely from politics; I would demand this of any religion.
As for my opinions of current American military actions, I will state for the record that radical Islam should be fought by more refined methods than carpet-bombing and the like. The Iraq war is a mistake, if you ask me. Kick the Mullahs out of Iran first, and you've gotten a lot further.
Anyway, I hope I haven't offended you too badly with my assessment. Forgive my harshness with Reza; (s)he is a hypocritical pinhead. If you'd like to continue this dialogue somewhere else, I'd be open to that.
Reza,
asking the "Westerners" to embrace Islam and live in peace is a highly comical request, quite possibly the funniest thing I've heard or read in the last 2 months. It is assinine to ask that Islam be embraced and live in peace with muslims, when Radical Muslims are the provoking party for the fighting in the world today. Granted there is a lot going on in the rest of the world. Radical Muslims bombed the World Trade Center in the 90's then in 2001 flew planes into both towers, and the Pentagon. Look back at the U.S. Marine Corp Barracks, and multiple attacks on U.S. Embassy's, not to mention all of the Bombings world wide and attacks on innocent people. Bottom line, how many Christians do you see going out and just bombing innocent people in public places to make a political statement? Islam is a crock a joke, and a creation of one man's pride and hunger for power to control the masses with brainwashing and control over every facet of their lives Unity of Church/State so the religious leaders who stand on their soap box spreading their version of the Quran to millions of illiterate 3rd world countrymen/women who don't know any better. I ask you, where will you spend eternity...
The point isn't the superiority of the West, for the Far East has outpaced islam as well. The point is that the islamic political system is a failure. How long do you think it would take for a hyper-regulated talibanistan to land a person on the moon?
Muslim civilisation peaked with the sack of Constantinople. Most of the muslim 'achievements' of the middle ages came from conquered cultures, even the 'arabic' numeral we use today are of Indian origin!
Islam was spread across the world by the sword, but will end under the tank tread. Soon enough a crossroads will be met where islam must undergo serious reform or face extinction.
This morning at the subway station there were some 5 ot 6 cops came rushing past with some plainclothes types for some reason. An elderly moslem couple absolutely froze up when the cops came past. I felt bad for them that they have to live in fear. In a way its their own fault for not turning on the bullies among them like Reza. But they're probably afraid. Islam produces bullies. The face of that Sadr character is the face of a schoolyard bully. Compare his face to the Pope's, for instance. There is no humility in him. Spiritual people should be humble before God, not little arrogant strutting pr*cks. The ones who worship him are the ones who worship man, not God. They are facists.
WELL PUT ANADA....
Check out the BBC DARFUR tragic crisis.
the word Muslim does not appear once.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3683701.stm
Check out the front page headline
US army probes death in custody.
NO mention of the Jihadists outside Downing street any where.
THe brits have to pay for this Crap under threat of imprisonment !!!
THe reason thet muslims are backward is entirely the fault of their religion.
Imagine Gallileo as a muslim coming to trial under sharia sourt for blaspheming agianst the prophet.
Imagine a Jew such as Albert Enstein expounding his theory of relativity in a arab souk.
Imagine Newton sitting under an date palm watching a date fall to the ground and telling the local immams about his discovery.
What do you think would have happened to them ?
Tarek--with all due respect, the underlying institutional structure of Islam is flawed. So, fine. No one should judge that. But other cultures that have contributed nothing for the past 800 years are treated with respect. But most of them do not fly airliners into skyscrapers nor do they advocate the imposition of a theocratic political system that would return us to the 14th century.
And, btw, Islam in the 14th and 15th centuries did indeed thrive and bring lavish art and some basic science. However, they seem to have gotten stuck there owing to their oppression, lack of democratic rosk taking, and pathetically tyrannical family structure. You never had an enlightenment--there was no Rousseau or Locke because it was not permitted. Music was stunted. Do you realize that your whole culture has never produced music much beyond that which was performed to "please the Sultans" who were busy get blow jobs? The entire idea of an orchestra is anathema to Muslim culture.
If it were not for oil, Islam would have undergone the natural decay of a flawed civilization. It will take ten years or so, but the oil is about to be replaced. You all can go back to sniffing your poppies, beating your wives, and shouting about Allah. We will be using H2 fuel cells and beyond, and you can go back to riding camels.
One more thing: a good indication of just how pathetic political Islam has been is the fact that the Saudis, Iranians, et al int the ME region have squandered trillions in petrol revenue that could have ben used in helping your pathetic civilization catch up. But no, you spent it on luxury and ultimately ignored your newest generation of brats like UBL. Too bad..."you chose...poorly".
Reza......you simply dismiss this as two Muslim men standing in the rain peacefully demonstrating.
This doesn't sound peaceful to any clear thinking person I'm aware of:
(Demonstrators chant 'Bomb London, bomb New York' and 'We are terrorists' outside Downing Street, London)
I guess this is Islam's answer to every issue....Bomb bomb bomb.....bomb bomb dee bomb!
If Islamists spent half the time learning to read, write and learn civility, that they do plotting murders and learning to build bombs, the world would be a much better place.
By the way, our "cowardly armies" as you (Reza) like to refer to them as, are knocking the dump out of some of your heroes right about now. Your brave idols are coming out waving white flags in surrender......Just thought you should know.
They only had two options given to them by our military - (Surrender or die)....That's one more option than they should've been given.
It's good to see so many people bothered by this. It shows that not everyone has been taken in by the Jihadist's propaganda.
As for Reza, let him/her talk. It's not talk that carries weight here but the evidence. Such as al-Muhajiroun "peacefully" protesting anything... and in the same breath celebrating the 9/11 "heroes". Where were they (and Reza) when the peaceful followers of a "peaceful" faith were mutilating the bodies of Western civilians? Still claiming the moral high ground, apparently. The only word for that is "hypocrisy". Who is really the source of "hatred and threats"?
We know what the world would be like living in the "peace" that al-Muhajiroun and Reza would offer: dhimmitude, persecution, the illusion of "peaceful Islam" (which is a contradiction).
As a Christian, it's almost an honor to be ridiculed for my Zionist connections, my false gods, and my Crusader alliance.
The truth will set us free. Stand firm and keep your eyes open, friends.
Way to go Mark!! Very well put!
you cant reason with those who lack the skill...
Well at least people like Reza are consistent, for their hypocrisy knows no bounds. There is no room for the likes of her/him to speak, for there is no more viscious perpetrator of violence against people than the radical muslim.
They call it a religion of peace, yes a piece of you ,and a piece of me if I am not a muslim. The definition of peace for Islam is "peace is with an enemy. All others -- peace is without war -- theres a big difference.
It is said that men live as though they were reflections of their God.
Look at these guys and see the face of Allah!
The only way this war on terror is going to end is when a worse attack than 9/11 occurs, maybe multiple times. There simply isn't the will to carry out this war right now. The public's will is the center of gravity of the war. Ho Chih Minh stated that the VietCong Army's primary motivating force were the anti-war demostrations happening in the States; not the defense of their homeland, not the defense of the Communist ideology.
Radical Islam and freedom are incompatible for crying out loud. Islam literally translates to "SUBMISSION" in Arabic. They're like water and oil...or more like nitroglycerin and oil.
Ananda,
I chatted with a Turkish Muslim woman who said what you have said that part of the problem is that Islam never underwent a Reformation as Christianity did. That's part of the reason why Muslim countries remain backward and unable to progress into the 20th century. Muslims continue to fall farther and father behind both the West and the Far East. Other then oil the middle east contributes nothing to humankind and has not contributed anything for centuries.Muslims need to look at themselves and their societies instead of looking with envy and hatred at the west. People have grown tired of Muslims forever playing the victim card. That won't work anymore.
The strength in the West is that those responsible for these atrocities will be dealt with - What amazes me is that there is a double standard here - where was the ARAB outrage of the mutilation of the bodies of those 4 contracters in Fallujah? Basically it was - Islam is against body mutilation, but since the people mutilated were infidels, they got what they deserved.
The West - including the USA - has expressed outrage at both - this showing very clearly the huge differences between the two worldviews - The West acknowledges this horror and the guilty will be punished. In Islam, there is no outrage when Infidels are killed, tortured, mutilated as this is for the good of the cause of spread the disease of Islam worldwide!
Linda
There has never been, nor can there ever be, a Reformation in Islam: the Qur'an is the received, immutable word of the divine islamic being- and cannot be gainsaid, modified or questioned. There is no possibility of a secular authority advancing reforms to islam. It is what it is.
Mentat has posted here the statutory enactments by Singapore to curtail islamic radicalism, through proscribing those aspects of islam that the state deems to be inciteful. That works for the police state of Singapore, but just try effecting the same strictures on islam in a Western democracy...
In no small part, the impossibility of internal reform of islam is why I could not finish Irshad Manji's The Trouble with Islam". Although I admire her intelligence and forthrightness, her calls for iftihad are a non-starter, even naive. Ever wonder why there has been no fatwa issued regarding her and her book?- it's because the islanmists do not view her as a threat to islam.
Killshot
What you just said reflects the narrow thinking of the west when it comes to islam. Islam is not about oppression and dictatorship, and i must say that the real Islam is a democracy, with the religion as a base to the political, economic, and social life. I certainly beleive that if the true Islam is taken as law, well-being and a high standard of life will increase dramatically. there is no country in the world that does practice the true Islam, including saudi arabia; a kingdom is nothing related to Islam.
PS. you need to learn more about Islam than just what the Islamic radicals are doing
thanks
Tarek,
Read about democracy.
You define theocracy.
Read outside the lines
that have been drawn for you
by tribal misogynists who
longed for sex, power and money.
It is an evil eye that cannot see.
To paraphase playwright Tom Stoppard in the cold-war spy show "Hapgood,"
The west is corrupt too. But in the west, corruption means something is wrong. In Islam, corruption means everything is working alright."
Walter in Denver
Tarek,
Instead of lecturing us kafirs about so called true Islam, why aren't you outside those mosque that are preaching radical Islam? It's them that you should be lecturing to first.
In this pure version of Islam, will:
1) People be able to leave it and join any (or no) religion of their choice without fear and intimidation?
2) Women be treated as equals in law and social status?
Tarek:
Unless Islam loses its sharia law it is a dead duck. The spiritual, ritual aspect of Islam I don't care about. Pray 5 times a day, heck make it 10 times a day for all I care but sharia and dhimmitude you can shove it matey.
Crusader Front, you're great!
"As far as 'embracing islam'? Not a chance. It's possible my family has been Christian for at least 50 generations. Why would I ever forsake the legacy of free will, and free thought, that Western culture with it's Christian foundation has given me?!"
My family has been Jewish since well, we go back to Adam and Eve and my people didn't survive thousands of years to be ended by some upstart cult.
The ignorance of history is absolutely astounding.
Jem:
You've hit on something I have noticed amongst my Canadian (non-Israeli) Jewish friends- a startling lack of appreciation and understanding of the islamist threat- especially to the Jewish people. Daniel Pipes has a piece out currently on "The Golden Age of North American Jewry"- it's worth a read.
I am driving my Jewish friends mad by sending them links to sites such as this, lgf, Anti-CAIR, etc.- spending >$100K on a wedding or buying a new Benz might soothe the ego, but at the end of the day, the Chosen People have not survived this long by being transfixed by baubles. NO ONE understands better than you the effects of jihad (remember the Banu Qurayah?)
We all have an oportunity and a duty to ensure that Judeo-Christian civilization is apprised of the true nature of islam. Thanks for providing such opportunity, Robert.
Islam is partly at fault for the arab countries being backward....but its more the leaders of those countries...I mean if they can keep the masses whipped up in a frenzy about issues (palestinians, prisoner abuse, anit-west etc..) then they dont have to time to look around and see that they are among the worlds poorest most illiterate people, while their leaders relieve themselves in toilets made from solid gold (it was obscene they way sadaam and his pervert sons lived while the regular folks lived in poverty) The oil that most of those countries sit on should pay for health care, education etc...and not just for the leaders and their friends, for everyone...keep the masses down and there is more for us seems to be their motto.
As far as reza goes...we in the west need more people like this....this person furthers suspicion and hate of islam, this person and people like this will be responsible for waking some that are still in denial that muslims do not want to live peacefuly with us...they want the entire world to be a part of their cult...keep saying that "we will all embrace islam" etc...we need that kind of thing to keep fueling our war and for some deniers to see things as they are. Think about it before 9-11 muslims moved about the US with little to no discrimination...no one was mean or rude to them simply because they were muslim...now its a totally different story...they cant even fly without a 3 hour pre boarding check, its harder for them to get employment and on the street they are looked at with suspicion and in some cases hate...yes just keep fueling the anit-islam movement....
Tarek said:
"What you just said reflects the narrow thinking of the west when it comes to islam. Islam is not about oppression and dictatorship, and i must say that the real Islam is a democracy, with the religion as a base to the political, economic, and social life. I certainly beleive that if the true Islam is taken as law, well-being and a high standard of life will increase dramatically."
The real Islam is a democracy? Demos - ocracy -- government by the people. What good is this real Islam if dhimmis are not allowed to vote or construct churches or do anything, basically, that would endanger their dhimmi status? Having a permanent dhimmi underclass can ONLY work when you have a tyrannous regime to keep 'em down. You just try something like that in America, where one of our early flags read "Don't tread on me." The Muslim mind is incredibly naive.
And to poettess: You rock!!
~NMJ
Britians you have a problem, you did a very stupid thing yo took away the guns of your people you will have to fix that! The Iraqis are the ones who did the worst of the abuse because that is what was done to them! you'al need to give your Christians guns a gun in hand is worth two cops on the phone.
God bless the USA and her Fighting Forses and those who Fight with her give them strength and courage to stay the course to Victory!
on topic of immigration..here come 16,000
Bantu Somalis to the Seattle area in the coming
year..(sigh..)..and you can bet your a** they will become as arrogant as the rest towards our hospitality..(once we teach them to turn doorknobs and brush their teeth, that is..)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001920108_bantus05m.html
Tarek: STOP SMOKIN THE CRACK!! Anyone that says true islam is democratic is worse than stupid, he's a moron. I have studied islam for over 10 years and everything you say is pure unadulterated BULLSHIT. Mohammad pulled from pre-islamic lore, Jewish lore and the Torah and early Christianity. Verbally that is. Mohammad was illiterate. The Qur'an wasn't compiled and sloshed together for over 100 years after Mohammad's death. Most was pulled from the memory of those who were still alive but old and those to whom it had been orally passed down. You have inherited LIES.
Nomorejihad
Must i remind you that the first 4 Caliphs of the islamic republic were voted for by the people, and how that everybody must voluntarily aoth to the caliph before he was chosen as caliph. That was when ofcourse europe was ruled by the feudal system in the middle ages and america was, well, ruled by barbaric indians
thanks
Nomreojihad
i want to tell you that at the age of the prophet and the first four caliphs, even pagans were allowed to worship their god freely without persecution. The fact that Saudi Arabia doesnt allow the construction of churches is completely unrelated to Islam.
thanks
Bob
I want to to tell you that whatever the sharia tells us its the most appropriate thing to do in all aspects of life, such as inheritance, murder, theft, adultery, and alcohol. The fact that YOU dont like the sharia is completely irrelevant, and nobody said that it should be applied in every single country; islamic countries only.
P.S. I noticed that everybody here thinks that jihad happens when a muslim kills a non-muslim. This fact is WRONG. It says in the quran that jihad is fought against countries who persecute muslims or forbid the sprading of Islam. As america is a democracy with freedom for individuals, thats not the case, and therefore it is not jihad. Jihad may also occur in the form of defending the country from invaders, and even then only military units are attacked and the civilians should not be harmed. Therefore what is happening in Iraq is Jihad, as the US has involved itself in Iraq for no reason, and the killing of american soldier is extremely legitimate, and the US should leave before more casualties occur in both sides, which is extremely sad
thanks
My dear Tarek,
"i want to tell you that at the age of the prophet and the first four caliphs, even pagans were allowed to worship their god freely without persecution."
I'm sorry to say that that is not the case. In particular, Sura 9 of the Qur'an directs Muslims to "slay the pagans wherever you find them" (9:5). In the age of the Prophet and the first four caliphs, Muslims followed this directive.
"The fact that Saudi Arabia doesnt allow the construction of churches is completely unrelated to Islam."
This is not true either, I'm afraid. The prohibition of churches in Saudi Arabia is based on the Prophet's statement that there should be "no two religions" in Arabia, and that "I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims" (Sahih Muslim, book 19, no. 4366).
Cordially,
Robert Spencer
My dear Tarek,
"I noticed that everybody here thinks that jihad happens when a muslim kills a non-muslim. This fact is WRONG. It says in the quran that jihad is fought against countries who persecute muslims or forbid the sprading of Islam."
You are correct. Here is a succinct statement of jihad from the Shafi'i manual "'Umdat as-Salik": the Muslim community must make "war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians . . . until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax" ('Umdat al-Salik, o9.8).
This is, of course, something that everyone who believes in the freedom of conscience and the universal dignity of all people must oppose.
Cordially,
Robert Spencer
Robert Spencer
I think you are using the quran in a biased way. I doubt that you have ever read the soora 109 in the quran "Say you those who disbeleive, i dont worship what u worship, and you dont worship what i worship, you have your religion and i have mine" the verses you mentioned earlier are used either partially, ie. you didnt mention the whole verse, or the translation actually changed the meaning of the verse. Please send the number of the verse if you are still interested.
thanks
Tarek:
Not even close; your knowledge of islam is pitifully slight.
Robert's quotes from Surah 9 are based on the doctrine of abrogation. You are familiar with that concept in islam, correct? That is, irrespective of their place in the qur'an, successor surah take theological precedence over earlier, conflicting received surah. Should you feel so inclined to further your patently-limited knowledge of your faith, I recommend surah 2:106 and 16:101. You're welcome.
Surah 9 ("Baraat") is generally considered to be the last of the revealed surah. Hence, any reference to any earlier surah, to the extent that it conflicts with surah 9, is abrogated.
Your reference to surah 109 which, have no doubt, Robert is familiar with, has been abrogated by surah 9. So, its support for your argument is nil.
Once again proving Thomas Carlyle's pithy comment on the qur'an:
"A wearisome confused jumble, crude, incondite; endless iterations, long-windedness, entanglement; most crude incondite- insupportable stupidity, in short!"
Especially when read by one with a limited understanding of his own faith...
My dear Tarek
"I think you are using the quran in a biased way."
Actually I am not using the Qur'an at all. I am not a Muslim and I offer no interpretation of my own. I merely report on Muslim interpretations. The one to which I referred in regard to the pagans is amply established in Islamic theological literature, as well as Muslim history.
"I doubt that you have ever read the soora 109 in the quran"
In fact I have read the entire Qur'an innumerable times.
"the verses you mentioned earlier are used either partially, ie. you didnt mention the whole verse,"
I didn't, but the rest of the verse I quoted (9:5) doesn't change the meaning.
"or the translation actually changed the meaning of the verse."
Sorry. I know what the Arabic says.
"Please send the number of the verse if you are still interested."
It's up there, sir. 9:5. The Ayat of the Sword, for which Osama bin Laden praised Allah in one of his communiques.
Cordially,
Robert Spencer
Robert Spencer
Due to my somewhat limited knowledge i have of the quran, i am not qualified to reply on the last message.
thanks
Actually, I am guilty of not feeling one ounce of compassion or regret for the humiliation of the Iraqui prisoners. In fact, I kind of imagine, with a certain amount of glee, the idiots in the picture holding the sign "Is this your freedom?" wearing Sargeant Susan's underwear as a hat. Also, if I built a human pyamid of naked Iraquis, I too would put a hood on their ugly, hate-filled faces.
U.S is an unfair country and had killed lots of people unfairly, but we need peace: no more violence on our shoulders! Words and diplomacy against U.S
Estamos con vosotros, ¡¡¡acabaremos con la democracia en el mundo!!!