Berg Had Qur'an, 'Anti-Semitic' Book

Authorities tried to tell Berg to go home and offered to pay for everything, but he told them: "You don't understand these people like I do. You're here for a reason - and so am I."

Tragic as the story is: he already said that his committment was to make money.

Until there is a reasonable element of peace is it sensible for any western agency to be in what appears to be still a war zone.

My guess is that includes the troops too.

He had an antisemitic book as a cover, an insurance policy. How can anything be more obvious? He was no dunce. With his Jewish name and Israel stamped American passport, he thought a copy of the koran and some anti-Jew propaganda might enable him to survive a kidnapping. To me that's like 2+2=4. I don't see the mystery.

It sounds like a very intelligent, ambitious young man. A true tragedy. My deepest condolences go out to his family for his unjust loss.

The above passage makes clear inference of mr berg as a 'strange fruit' and stops short of making more robust allegations against him elegantly guiding our thoughts..can it be, was he a closet-jihadist? So when someone is intrigued and wishes to explore the 'truth' in an anatomical-critical manner (in other words when he actually thinks for himself) by cross-reference etc he is branded. Maybe we should actually follow suit and get our information from a less biassed source. It just goes to show how weak democracy really is: don't take the bait!

With his Jewish name and Israel stamped American passport, he thought a copy of the koran and some anti-Jew propaganda might enable him to survive a kidnapping.>>

I agree. He sounds like an idealistic young man trying to understand both sides and make a buck as well. The evil that befell him was unspeakable. Where is the Arab outrage? I'm still waiting for it. What kind of beast saws off another human being's head, especially while he is living and breathing? There are no words to describe such evil. The religion of peace? PUHLEEEEEZE!

Arxos,

Democracy is far from weak. In how many forms of government could you legally have dissenting discourse? Democracy involves examining any and all sides of any given issue, without censorship. While this can often lead to some outrageous theories, it is vastly preferable to "party line" thinking that retards though and only demands obedience, as is common through much of the world.

News Max is, on occasion, as far to the right as the majority of the media is to the liberal left. I don't think anyone will argue that. It is the duty of a citizen in a few society to read all viewpoints, and distill the truth from the free exchange of ideas.

Bob,
Sorry I was vague. I meant that democracy is suceptible to our 'mortal ills'; it must be safeguarded at all times, which requires vigilance and not taking things for granted, blindly as is our self-assured tendency.

All humans beings instinctively feel disgust at brutal actions such as mr berg's killing. Evil is not in the nature of any particular group or denomination. (I feel a bit silly saying this but some people don't get it)

Lafn,

The muslim world has shown a great deal of disgust towards this. But put it in perspective. If they're going to show outrage towards something, its going to be the occupation of Iraq, the abuse scandle, the thousands of uncounted civilan deaths, etc. It was an awful thing to happen to a civilian (let alone anyone), but it still has effect when contrasted against everything else.

Your thinking is perfectly in line with typical American thinking that an American life is more valuable than an non-American's life. Where is the American government's response to the thousands of dead Iraqi civilians... oh wait, I think I remember... "we don't do body counts"

I think you have to admit that Nick was "Street wise" and not a blundering liberal who was blind to the dangers of a Jew in the lion's den of Islamic jihadits.
Unlikely in the extreme that he was working for a Us government agency.
Who would send a Jew to plant bugging equipment in the Iraqi communications systems ?
A closet jihadist ? that is also highly improbable.
The Father's gut reaction in his attacks on GWB and rumsfeld and the court action do suggest that there is something more than the usual Bush Hate of american "liberals".
Who Dobbed him in ?
Where and how was he kidnapped?
Did he speak arabic ?

a poor jew looking for the answers to the muslim issue and found himself on the wrong end of a sword. the issue remands the same, american beheaded by muslims; that is enough to look at the muslim and his/her islamic religion.

ok.. this is a sick video.. i feel bad for the guy.. jews arent bad.. im like.. less than a quarter jew.. and yet i care.. poor man :'-(

Nothing will ever cure Islam from this disease. The wickedness of contemporary Islam is unredeemable. Every single American Muslim; Man, woman and child needs to be given a choice to convert or die. Death to Palestine!

I predict it will come out that Nicholas Berg was bipolar manic/depressive. I've known several bipolars and Nick Berg's adventures sound right in line with the way they conduct themselves. There's always a strange incomprehensibility to the things they do, but their behavior is never so far out of line that you would immediately figure them to be insane. There won't be any answers to this tragedy because the purpose and logic of Nick Berg's Iraqi adventure was known only to him and unfortunatley died with him. It's sad.

To all mussies,
allah is satan. isalm is evil. Burn in hell for all eternity. Urban, the second.

I personally think he was killed to make him a Martyr.... that kid has more ties to AL-Qaeda than any of us know about.

Well, I think it was pretty stupid of him to go into Iraq with an Israeli stamp in his passport. But, so far, I haven't read/heard from any Israeli officials about Berg's visit to here. I'm friends with a journalist here. Maybe I'll ask him if he can do some digging. I read an article (sorry; can't remember where) that he was starting to get closer to Judaism. I wouldn't - however - characterize him as a 'religiious' Jew as was done in the posting. Perhaps he was naive. Maybe he was simply doing some studying in reference to the books he was carrying. But Iraq was not the place to do it.

I just talked with my friend (see above posting) and he said he would check it out.

Why did he tell his freind he was going "sailing in Turkey"? Who sails in Turkey?

Lots of people:

http://www.marmaris.org/Sailing/marmaris_sailing.aspx
http://www.uk250.co.uk/SailingHoliday/
http://www.saildulcinea.com/?http://www.globalholidays.co.uk/holidays-sailing-holidays.htm
http://www.maritime.co.uk/turk.htm
http://www.meetundersails.com/

etc, etc, Google had about 70,000 hits. Turkey is a major tourist destination with a long Mediterranean coastline, so it's not that surprising.

I've no idea if Nick Berg went sailing there but there's nothing unlikely about the idea at all.

I'm Still waiting for the Arab world to be sorry we have seen these Monsters and their spreading the killing of Chistrians and then called ethnic cleasing . No matter what comes out about Berg Remember he served us well he showed the Monsters at their best . Where is the Arab saying this not their way they are not because it is. We have giving the mulsums a week to cry out in our pain to decry this as not part of their world we hear nothing!!!
Remember we Americans fix problems not sit and talk about untill we have been over run . We are our grandparents Children who fought WW2 look at history and did they lay down like the French no they stood up for America.
Remember a gun in hand is worth 2 cops on the phone!

Part of the American Tribe

God Bless the USA and All who Fight With her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

My husband worked for military intelligence as a Russian language specialist in the late 60s and early 70s. We lived in Germany for several years and saw too much to describe here. But, as US government records now reveal, the former Soviet Union was at the bottom of much global unrest. The USSR promoted drug use among the young in the West and instigated and encouraged class conflict and religious "in-fighting". These techniques, when combined, are very effective for purposes of societal control and consolidation of power. It is important to ask the question: "Who stood to gain by the death of Mr. Berg?" Judging by some of the emails, what has been gained by the decapitation murder of Nick Berg is a confusion about who our enemy is and who/what they are really after. Where initially Nick Berg was reported as simply "an American", please note that he is now being singled out as "young", "entrepreneurial", "Jewish", "liberal", etc etc etc. This is classic Russian communist strategy for creating factions within Democratic society. Please keep in mind that Russia is firmly opposed to the US intervention in Iraq (God forbid some country should beat them to control over the oil fields!) and Russia continues to run guns to militants and insurgents across the globe. Lest I am dismissed as a McCarthyite, please read: "Red Cocaine" by Douglas, PhD (available through Amazon.com).
Heads up, America !!! Read between the lines.

Lafn,
What kind of beastS smiles, and points to the nude Iraqi prisoners? What kind of beastS poses and sexually harasses "living and breathing"prisoners?
Yes, Lafn, there is no word to describe the evil YOU AMERICANS have displayed and performed.

Lafn,
What kind of beastS smiles, and points to the nude Iraqi prisoners? What kind of beastS poses and sexually harasses "living and breathing"prisoners?
Yes, Lafn, there is no word to describe the evil YOU AMERICANS have displayed and performed.

Wrong christian,
Go and learn more about Islam before you allow your underdeveloped mind to make comments that are based on stereotypes. Just because a group of nominal followers behead an American in retaliation to the Iraqi prisoner abuse, that does not allow you to make judgments about their religion. Look at it this way….you Christians don’t follow your religion the way it should be followed, now do you? In fact, you guys have practically changed the whole religion based on your whims and desires. Anyway, when you see some person (non-Muslim to be exact), perform some sort of heinous crime, do you ever look at their religion? NO! Not once have I ever seen religion come up when it had something to do about a Christian or Non-Muslim who committed a crime. Oh, he’s just some person who was probably raised by some dumb parents. Oh, just put him in jail, and get it over with. O, ok, just let that go, but when a MUSLIM does something bad, you make the biggest deal out of it. But, do we form a judgement about their religion based on that single person? Believe me, there are thousands of Muslims out there who are being slaughtered and killed and tortured, but do we hear of it? No, because the media covers it up. The media covers the true identity of the “Land of the Free.” And they are doing such a good job only because they have ignorant and manipulative people who believe every word they say.

Wrong christian,
Go and learn more about Islam before you allow your underdeveloped mind to make comments that are based on stereotypes. Just because a group of nominal followers behead an American in retaliation to the Iraqi prisoner abuse, that does not allow you to make judgments about their religion. Look at it this way….you Christians don’t follow your religion the way it should be followed, now do you? In fact, you guys have practically changed the whole religion based on your whims and desires. Anyway, when you see some person (non-Muslim to be exact), perform some sort of heinous crime, do you ever look at their religion? NO! Not once have I ever seen religion come up when it had something to do about a Christian or Non-Muslim who committed a crime. Oh, he’s just some person who was probably raised by some dumb parents. Oh, just put him in jail, and get it over with. O, ok, just let that go, but when a MUSLIM does something bad, you make the biggest deal out of it. But, do we form a judgement about their religion based on that single person? Believe me, there are thousands of Muslims out there who are being slaughtered and killed and tortured, but do we hear of it? No, because the media covers it up. The media covers the true identity of the “Land of the Free.” And they are doing such a good job only because they have ignorant and manipulative people who believe every word they say.

Wrong christian,
Go and learn more about Islam before you allow your underdeveloped mind to make comments that are based on stereotypes. Just because a group of nominal followers behead an American in retaliation to the Iraqi prisoner abuse, that does not allow you to make judgments about their religion. Look at it this way….you Christians don’t follow your religion the way it should be followed, now do you? In fact, you guys have practically changed the whole religion based on your whims and desires. Anyway, when you see some person (non-Muslim to be exact), perform some sort of heinous crime, do you ever look at their religion? NO! Not once have I ever seen religion come up when it had something to do about a Christian or Non-Muslim who committed a crime. Oh, he’s just some person who was probably raised by some dumb parents. Oh, just put him in jail, and get it over with. O, ok, just let that go, but when a MUSLIM does something bad, you make the biggest deal out of it. But, do we form a judgement about their religion based on that single person? Believe me, there are thousands of Muslims out there who are being slaughtered and killed and tortured, but do we hear of it? No, because the media covers it up. The media covers the true identity of the “Land of the Free.” And they are doing such a good job only because they have ignorant and manipulative people who believe every word they say.

Angry Infidel,
Don’t go teaching us Muslims whats gonna cure us and whats not. “The wickedness of contemporary Islam is unredeemable.” Ok, so what the American soldiers did to the Iraqis was redeemable? “Every single American Muslim; Man, woman and child needs to be given a choice to convert or die. Death to Palestine!” A choice? We’ll decide what we do… don’t you dare decide for us! Just because you’re to dense and thick to realize the beauty of Islam, that doesn’t mean you take it out on us. Don’t go and get mad, angry infidel, cuz im sure you arent the only one who feels this way. I mean, there are thousands like you out there, who just really are incapable of grasping practically any knowledge. So, just because you don’t understand something, that doesn’t mean you go spreading crap bout it.

URBAN,
Man, you seriously need help…mental help. If Allah is satan, and if Islam is evil, then you’re making President Bush look angelic. How many times do I have to tell idiots like you: don’t go spreading lies about Islam and Allah. Go, and learn more about Islam, before you make ignorant comments like these. Not everyone follows Islam the way it should be followed, that’s why we (the sane people), don’t judge people, races, culture, religion, etc, based on stereotypes.

Dina:

"When a MUSLIM does something bad, you make the biggest deal out of it. But, do we form a judgement about their religion based on that single person?"

Not at all. I formed my judgment about your "religion" based on studying it.

It's amusing to see you dismiss Berg's murderers as "nominal" followers of Islam, considering that they were acting EXACTLY in accordance with the Koran.

Dina:

"How many times do I have to tell idiots like you: don’t go spreading lies about Islam and Allah"

The only people I've seen spreading lies on this site are Muslims and Muslim apologists.

Most of the regular posters here are quite familiar with the tenets of your sick cult.

Who knows...if you read what they have to say, you might even learn something.

"Anyway, when you see some person (non-Muslim to be exact), perform some sort of heinous crime, do you ever look at their religion? NO! Not once have I ever seen religion come up when it had something to do about a Christian or Non-Muslim who committed a crime..... but when a MUSLIM does something bad, you make the biggest deal out of it."
Posted by Dina at May 16, 2004 05:28 PM

The answer to that Dina, is quite simple;

When Muslims commit these sorts of atrocities, They usually do it in the name of their god; (eg. when Nick Berg was beheaded, his murderers slit his throat whilst shouting "Allahu Akbar")
And, if they're not actually invoking their (your) gods name, then justification for the in-humane act can usually be found in your scriptures, eg;
Qur’an 8:12
“Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

If a 'Christian' were to commit such an act, it is clearly in opposition to our scripture, the teachings of Jesus, and therefore I for one, would not call that person a christian. Whereas a Muslim in doing so, is simply following the commands of his/her beloved 'prophet', and so I and others would deem him/her to be a 'true Muslim'.

Regards,
kc

Lobo91:
"Not at all. I formed my judgment about your "religion" based on studying it."
Well, Lobo, obviously you didn't study it right, because as I am a born Muslim, I dont see anywhere in the Quran where it mentions that all Muslims must kill innocent people, and not seek revenge. Dont go teaching me what the Quran says or doesn't say, because I am a MUSLIM, and I know alot more than what your feeble mind could hold. Go and get me the ayah where it reinforces your view on Islam.
"It's amusing to see you dismiss Berg's murderers as "nominal" followers of Islam, considering that they were acting EXACTLY in accordance with the Koran."
First of all, go look up the word, nominal, in the dictionary. Second of all, who said anything about dismising it? I was disgusted to see some so-called Muslims behead an innocent person. In Islam, you are allowed to seek revenge against somone who has killed your beloved, or in our case, our Muslim brothers and sisters. However, you are forbidden to kill any INNOCENT person. Now, tell me, Lobo, were those nominal Muslims acting in accordance to the QURAN.

ok, Kc
actually the ayah you bought from the Quran is invalid (which isn't surprising, due to the fact that it came from you). You or from whichever source you recieved the ayah from, altered the ayah, adding and taking some words to fit it according to your judgements based on stereotypes. The actual ayah is:

8:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
Here, our Lord is speaking to the believers, ( this is way way way back), during the Battle Of Badr. He reassures them, saying that He will always be with them, and will make sure they achieve success. They (the Muslims) were versing the nonbelievers (who at that time, worshipped idols). The nonmuslims knew what they were doing was wrong, but they were stubborn and refused to obey Allah. They tortured and killed many Muslims, (ie. put a huge stone on top of a Muslim and whipped him and was told that they would only stop if he let go of his faith).
I know everything I am posting here really angers you guys, but those are not my intentions. I feel bad that throughout the world, people are recieving the wrong image of Islam, and this isnt helping with all these so-called Muslims. The reason I'm here and the reason I am writing all these letters, is that so maybe one, at least one person will realize that Islam is not actually what they think it is. Islam does not teach any of this, but please, instead of attacking and spreading statements about Islam that are not true, can you at least verify your statement regarding Islam. Islam is a beautiful religion, becaue if it wasn't, then I dont think millions of people would have converted to it after 9/11. If you want to know about Islam, then go to someone who is a Muslim, not to someone who just carries opinions based on that religion.

Dina:

"Dont go teaching me what the Quran says or doesn't say, because I am a MUSLIM, and I know alot more than what your feeble mind could hold."

You're wasting your time spreading your disinformation on this site, you know. Most everyone who frequents it is well aware of what your cult's members are allowed (and required) to do.

I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not Berg's murder was technically justified under the Koran or not, because it doesn't actually matter.

As long as there are Muslims who BELIEVE their actions are justified, they'll continue slaughtering those they consider Infidels in the name of their god.

As I've said more than once before, if the so-called "moderate" Muslims don't stop these people, it will be up to me and my co-workers to do so. If WE have to do it, there will be an awful lot of "collateral damage," so I'd advise you to get busy.

Dina said:

"In Islam, you are allowed to seek revenge against somone who has killed your beloved, or in our case, our Muslim brothers and sisters."

Thank you for confirming that Islam is a religion that teaches revenge.

No, lobo, Im not wasting my time. I may be wasting it on you, but I am not wasting it. Even though I present the truth to you, before your very own eyes, you still refuse to believe it.
"I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not Berg's murder was technically justified under the Koran or not, because it doesn't actually matter."
Why arent you going to argue? Why? Because you know you are wrong, and you have nothing to support you as to what you are claiming.
Doesnt mattter? If it doesnt matter, then why'd you bring it up again? "As long as there are Muslims who BELIEVE their actions are justified, they'll continue slaughtering those they consider Infidels in the name of their god." Im sorry, but we're not like you people. We, the true Muslims, dont slaughter people left and right for holding steadily onto their religion.
As I will say again, TRUE MUSLIMS, those who adhere to their religion, and follow its rules and regulations, will never shed the blood of an innocent. Because, those who do, are not called Muslims. Those people are just Muslim by name, just how you guys are 'Americans' by name.

Lobo:
Oh yes, there's this one statement I forgot about:
"If a 'Christian' were to commit such an act, it is clearly in opposition to our scripture, the teachings of Jesus, and therefore I for one, would not call that person a christian."
So tell me, are those soldiers out there who are abusing and harassing Iraqis acting accordingly to your scripture? Are they following what Jesus told them to follow if they force a human to strip, then pose in front of a camera, smile, and point to thier genitals? Are they true Christians if they throw a young Muslim teen into the river along with his friend and then flatten his car?

Dina:

"As I will say again, TRUE MUSLIMS, those who adhere to their religion, and follow its rules and regulations, will never shed the blood of an innocent. Because, those who do, are not called Muslims. Those people are just Muslim by name"

And I'll say again, it doesn't matter whether you consider them "true Muslims" or not. What matters is that they consider THEMSELVES to be "true Muslims."

"So tell me, are those soldiers out there who are abusing and harassing Iraqis acting accordingly to your scripture?"

No, and I never said they were.

Of course, unlike the vermin who murdered Berg, those soldiers aren't claiming to act in the name of whatever god they may believe in. If you'll look closely at the uniforms they wear, you'll notice that they're wearing US flags, not Christian crosses. They're acting under the auspices of the United States, not God.

Another important distinction between them and Berg's killers is that those Americans who have abused their authority will be punished. Berg's killers, on the other hand, are celebrated as heroes on the "Arab street."

If it's true that no "true Muslim" would ever shed the blood of an innocent, then there sure must be a shortage of "true Muslims" visiting this site.

I don't recall a single Muslim posting an unequivocal condemnation of Nick Berg's murder here.

Maybe I should use italics for quotes from other people's posts.

You know, considering the number of places in the Koran where it says the Muslims are supposed to be invincible in battle, you'd think people would start to get a clue.

When was the last time an army from the Arab/Muslim world even made a decent showing in battle, much less won a war?

"when the Muhammadans set out, they did well, mind you they mainly slaughtered peasants women and children."

Yeah, they do pretty well when it's 5 against 1...and the 1 is tied up...and unarmed...

I've spent time in the Middle East, and I've been stationed at three different posts in the US where we train foreign officers. To a man, the ones from the Islamic countries are utterly worthless as soldiers.

The Russians realized long ago that their Middle Eastern clients weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. They referred to the export versions of their tanks and other military hardware as the "monkey models," because they had to simplify them so much.

Aliyah:

"so you tell me, when was the last time the american army won a proper, fair war?"

I'm not sure what you mean by "a proper, fair" war. War isn't like a game of football, where you have referees and each side has exactly the same number of players.

It's hardly our fault that most of Saddam's army chose to cut and run, rather than fight, although I can't say I blame them. It's not like they actually stood a chance.

As for our troops "leaving Afghanistan so quickly," you must get your news from some interesting sources. We have plenty of troops there at this very moment.

As for the crap about "American Christians going into a country to take the oil," you know as well as I do what utter bullshit that is.

We could have BOUGHT a hell of a lot of oil from Saddam for the several hundred billion dollars we're spending on cleaning up that cesspool, as you very well know.

"ok, Kc
actually the ayah you bought from the Quran is invalid (which isn't surprising, due to the fact that it came from you). You or from whichever source you recieved the ayah from, altered the ayah, adding and taking some words to fit it according to your judgements based on stereotypes"

Surprise surprise.
Yet another Muslim apologist accusing us of 'altering' the Qur'an.
Dina, you also forgot to add the usual:
"You took it out of context"
"It's not what it says in the Arabic"

The verse I quoted was from 'Shakirs' translation.

The other English translations give this account:

The 'Noble' Qur'an
"( Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

YUSUF ALI:
"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Well Dina, maybe you're right.
Maybe "smite ye above their necks" and "so strike them over the necks" really doesn't mean cut their heads off.
Maybe allah was telling his followers to put their swords over the unbelievers necks to help them by giving them a shave or something.

Heh and maybe 'Jihad' just means a spiritual/moral struggle.

What a joke.

All I've seen is that the Qu'ran teaches hate and violence, that everyone should follow Allah. In the Bible, Jesus teaches us to love one another. Of course not every Christian follows this, AND not everyone is Christian. If they were, there would be NO CRIMES but no one is perfect. So what religion was the 9/11 hijackers/MURDERERS following that day? And what about Bin Laden? In Muslim cities, women have no rights, their husbands can abuse them all they want, they have no rights to the children in the event of a divorce, their faces have to be kept hidden, while out in public they can't even hold their husbands hand much less walk next to them they must walk behind them, they aren't respected, how backwards is that? Their husbands can kill them and it's perfectly okay. Where in the Qu'ran does Allah tell husbands how to treat their wives? In the bible it clearly states that husbands shall leave their mothers for their wives and their wives are put ahead of their mothers. Men are supposed to take care of their wives not abuse them, or kill them. Yet if a Muslim girl disgraces her family, she's killed? I guess there's no such thing as counseling to understand why the girl acted out in such a way. I'm sorry but that is not a belief system that should take over the West, if my husband ever laid a hand on me he would be dead, I won't take that shit from any man, I wouldn't take it from my father and I sure as hell won't take it from my husband. Also, when 9/11 happened, there was media coverage of Islamic men, women and children dancing in the streets and saying Death to Amerika! Right here on Long Island, New York, there were Arabs who owned gas stations proudly saying the same thing and they LIVE in America and you ask why Americans hate Muslims so badly? Did anyone bother to think that Muslims were killed on 9/11 for no reason along with Chinese, German, Italian, Greeks, Polish, Indian, etc, etc, etc. But that's okay right? So those wonderful Muslims killed their own people in the name of Allah that day boy, they must be so proud! People who convert to Islam after 9/11 have no clue, they are being told what people want them to hear, that Islam is peaceful, if it's so peaceful why then are women treated so badly in their own countries? That's not peace, that's power, hate and VIOLENCE. Here in America, men do that and when they go to prison, they are beaten up sometimes killed by prisoners, it is not okay to sexually assualt a women or girl, is not okay to murder anyone, it is not okay to beat up your wife and children because they disrespected you and normally, if a TRUE man sees another man hitting his wife, he will step in, you can't say that about Islamic men. Don't tell me about Islam, I've seen and heard enough that makes my stomach sick.

Oh and for the record, I do BELIEVE there are Muslims out there that don't agree with the treatment of women in Islamic countries and do feel nothing but peace towards their fellow American however from everything I have seen and heard, those people are far and few between and they should not be hurt. I do not believe in hate crimes against ANY belief system as I do follow Jesus' teachings and I raise my daughter to follow Jesus and his teachings, be strong willed, be respectful of those around her. I don't hate ALL Muslims and I don't wish ALL Muslims dead, only those who believe in nothing but violence and senseless killing but I think the same of ANY person or persons who do evil acts.

Revenge is mine say the Lord..........it is not up to people to revenge upon a wrong doing and although I am a Christian I do have trouble everday with my feelings of revenge and I'm not ashamed to say this, I'm human and not perfect and ever since 9/11 I have felt nothing but fierce anger towards the people responsible for the senseless murder of thousands of innocent people. I am a Proud American and a Proud New Yorker and would LOVE to take Bin Laden and make him suffer like he's never known suffering before. I speak out of great hurt and anger and I pray that God will soften my heart. I am not ashamed to say any of this and in this Country, Women are free to speak their minds, leave the house without having to ask permission first, be proud to hold their husbands hand and call the police and have their husband arrested when he hits her and have full custody of her children. I respect my husband and he respects me, we may not agree on everything but in the end, he does not rule over me nor do I rule over him. God teaches us to have an equal, loving, marriage with Him in the middle of our lives and in our home and not to take the law into our own hands no matter what.

Dina:

There are people posting on this site who have studied Islam longer than you have probably been alive. They have acquired knowledge OBJECTIVELY and RATIONALLY, not through religious indoctrination.

Just because you are a "born Muslim" does not make you an expert on Islam. An expert studies something from all sides, objectively and rationally, the negative as well as the positive. You have a very one-sided view, that which has been provided to you by your "religion". The fact that you decline to even consider other alternatives shows that you are no expert. Experts examine, they don't make pronouncements about their expertise.

Lisa,Dana,
You are right revenge is in the mulsum book and you are about to see what that means in America we are sick of you sh-t we are a pacitant people but not stupid like you think we are well here comes some you have showed the USA what kind of monsters you are you mulsums cut off peoples heads . You mulsums cut babys out of the bellies of christain women and then burn them all in the name of your ROCK we we will not let the libs win in this country we will keep Bush and show what American Revenge is as you book tells you we have the right to do.

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and Her Fighting Forces and all who fight with her give them Strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

PS we do not feel sorry for fire ants we kill them. when they move we kill them an on an on untill they are all dead

okay, theyve studied islam longer then dina was born, they studied it the way they wanted to, not the way it is. if muslim women were treated as badly as Lisa thinks, then go to Saudia Arabia. if they were locked up, then would you see them outside? would you see them selling their merchandise? would they be allowed to go and come from the Masjid (house of prayer) without being hurt? i dont think so, but this is what happens in SAudi Arabia. and u want to know how muslim women are treated? look in the quran, u might find it. Surah An-Nisaa, and youll see how many rights they get, and are allowed these rights in muslim countries.
and a note to all of you all there, if your going to make an assumptiuon about islam, MAKE SURE YOU BACK IT UP WITH VERSES FROM THE QURAN, THE ONLY SCRIPTURE THE MUSLIMS FOLLOW.

Remwmber the monsters cut the mans head off . Where are the mulsums saying sorry we are not like that !!! I cannot hear you!!!

Remember Nicks Father said the terrorist killed their best freind?
Remember Nick was a computer expert could he have been help-ing move money ? today 2 banks bombed? We had stop-ed a lot of the money remember binL is haveing to pay with gold? Still saw Nick marching with anti Americans Arabs look for the viedos? Gold is not so easy to move?
Remember Nick told the Jailor he was lose-ing thoudands of dollars a day? But Remember his Father said he had no work and was coming Home? think ot of the box?

Part of the American Tribe
God bless the Usa and her fighting Forces and all who fight with her give them Strenght and Courage to stay the Course to Victory Amen

Aliyah,
Why would I read the Quran? I am Christian and I read and follow the Holy Bible. Middle Eastern women are ruled by their husbands, look at Rania al-Baz she was almost killed by her husband. She is fighting for custody of her children right now, she has been told she shouldn't be working in televison and that she needed some sense knocked into her, how do you call that freedom? Saudi Arabia is by far, the harshest and cruelist of all Middle Eastern countries when it comes to abuse and women:
Women have the right to free education and health care, buy and sell property but they can't take out a bank loan or apply for benefits on their own;
they can't own businesses unless a male sponsers it;
no driving of cars and no political life;
they are segregated in most workplaces, schools, restaurants;
cannot travel without a male chaperone;
cannot travel outside of their country with their children unless husband's permission is granted;
must wear abaya must be worn to cover their heads.
This is freedom? Give me a break! So they have some freedom but nothing like women in the west have. The Middle East is way too violent, husbands and family members can and do unspeakable terror to women. I know of some Muslim women that I have met in the past and where do you think I got my information? From the media? Oh please, they lie better than the government. Most Muslim Americans are opposed to the unfair treatment Muslim women face outside the US. There are millions of books written by people describing the terror these women go through, with some written by ex wives of Islamic husbands! Betty Mahmoody for one. Women do not have equal rights and may never will.

Lisa,
“Why would I read the Quran? I am Christian and I read and follow the Holy Bible.” If you don’t read the Holy Quran, then I advise you not to make any comments about Islam, in which the HOLY QURAN talks about.
“look at Rania al-Baz she was almost killed by her husband.” First of all, who said her husband was a Muslim? And even if he was, who said he was being a true Muslim? Obviously from what you have been telling me, I can conclude that none of those men are following Islam the way it should be followed. They do not have the right to misuse and abuse their wives! And I think you should go and learn your history again. “MUSLIM WOMEN HAD MORE RIGHTS THAN EUROPEAN WOMEN DURING THE ABBASID RULE. IN THE EARLY DAYS OF Islam, WOMEN COULD ALSO PARTICIPATE IN PUBLIC LIFE AND GAIN AN EDUCATION.” This statement is taken from the World History Patterns Of Interaction book. So don’t go give me b.s.
“Women have the right to free education and health care, buy and sell property but they can't take out a bank loan or apply for benefits on their own;” OK, taking loans (which involve interest) is haram (prohibited in Islam), so no Muslim, whether being a man or women is allowed to take loans.
Now, about Saudia Arabia, I admit, they are extremely harsh over the women, especially about the fact on not allowing them to drive cars. But, who said that they followed everything according to Islam. This is the problem nowadays. Muslims are loosing their faith in God, and are being attracted to the materialistic society.
“I know of some Muslim women that I have met in the past and where do you think I got my information? From the media? Oh please, they lie better than the government.”
You’re saying that the media lies better then the govt…then god only knows what you’re doin.
“must wear abaya must be worn to cover their heads.
This is freedom? Give me a break! So they have some freedom but nothing like women in the west have.”
I am a muslim women, and I wear my scarf outside. What all muslims are required to do is to wear loose clothing, which is a modest dress code. The scarf or the abaya does not symbolize harshness or forced silence. Why? Because physical persona does not play any role, it is the inside that counts. What, so your definition of freedom is when the girls go out half-naked with tight clothing? So that they go out with their boyfriends, and get pregnant the next day, which demolished their future? Is that called freedom to you? Do you like it when someone likes you for your looks, not because of who you are, but just for your looks? The scarf gives one an identity, and people begin to see the real you. They look past your physical attributes, look beyond it, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is the greatest freedom anyone can ever ask for!

Aliya;
you seemed to have 'overlooked' commenting on the Hadith I quoted.
?

Kc,
The ayah you mentioned earlier is indeed true...so whats wrong with it? Whats wrong with the fact that Allah is reassuring his followers, his believers, that He will send angels to the battle field which will aid in their victory against the unbelievers who refuse to believe the truth, just as you refuse to do so. War is war, just as someone has mentioned earlier. During war, its pretty obvious that you loose blood and lives, and yes, maybe fingers (or do you know of a war where not a single blood is shed?) Just as Allah is telling his believers to hurt those who openly refuse to believe in Islam even when they were presented with the truth, He also tells the believers this:
“Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.”
War is war, Kfc, and our Lord tells us what we are allowed and not allowed to do. It covers every little aspect, from cleaning to eating. Our Quran, THE ONE AND ONLY SCRIPTURE, tells us stories of the Prophets before us, who tried furtively to bring others to faith, and it has become mandatory for all Muslims out there to make Dawah (to call others to Islam).
Oh yes, about your Jihad comment you made. Very interesting. These days, many ignorant people are digesting the negative aspect of jiahd, which doesnt necessarily invovle war.Jihad is a comprehensive process, which takes in the striving of an individual or a group of Muslims, to adhere to the divine teachings and the values. Jihad applies within oneself, (meaning, fighting your harmful desires).It is a struggle to perform and maintain goodness, abolishing injustice, oppression, and evil from within oneself, as well as from the whole society. Thus, jihad takes many forms; spiritual, social, economic, as well as political. So, yes, it is a spiritual struggle..got a problem with that?

Kc
You seemed to have overlooked commenting on the fact that thousands of people have converted to Islam after 9/11. Since you're so sure that what you think you're saying is true, then why is it that so many people have converted to Islam after 9/11? And dont tell me they got the wrong image of Islam, because that would have been beyond pathetic...thousands of people kfc, answer that.

Kc, Lobo, Lisa
Jihad has only three objectives. The first is struggling within oneself for a life of virtue. The second is fighting against injustice. A thrid objective is to defend Islam whenever it comes under attack.

Islam is the most beautiful religion, and one has to be completely ignorant and blind not to realize this. Look at Malcolm X! He realized this, and when he went to Hajj, he was totally taken aback. When he was asked by his companions what impressed him most about the Hajj, Malcolm X responded, ‘The brotherhood! The people of all races and colors, from all over the world coming together as one. It has proved to me the power of the One God.’ From Mecca he wrote to his friends and family:
“…. America needs to understand Islam, because it is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem…I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.”
About the women, it is wrong to believe that Islam oppresses women and treats them as being inferior to men. Some are oppressed, but never of the rules of our religion. The Prophet Muhammad (S) said the equality of husband and wife is like ‘two teeth in a comb.’ What your Bible says is the following:
“Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, AND THE HEAD OF THE WOMEN IS MAN, and the head of Christ is god, (1 Corinthians 11:3)
“I DO NOT PERMIT A WOMEN TO TEACH OR TO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A MAB; SHE MUST BE SILENT. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one who decieved; IT WAS THE WOMEN WHO WAS A DECIEVE AND BECAME A SINNER.” (1 Timothy 2:12-14)
“If a MAN SELLS HIS DAUGHTER as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.” (Exodus 21:7)
“Now widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty…and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, WASHING THE FEET OF SAINTS…(1 Timothy 5:9,10)

Hmm….very interesting. What the Quran says?
“And they (women) have rights (over their husbands) similar to the rights against them, in kindness, but men have a degree of responsibility over them. And Allah is All-Mighty, All Wise. (Quran, 2:228)

“Men are the protectors and maintaners of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). (Quran, 4:34)
The Bible and the Quran are in agreement on the headship of man over the family. However they differ in the reasons for the mans headship and the powers of this headship.

Dina:

Statistically, Christianity is actually the fastest growing religion worldwide, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS have converted since 9/11.

Simple I am still waiting for the mulsums to sat it is not their way to cut mens heads off and ot cut babys from the wombs of their mothers and where is the outrage some would do that in the name of their god or rock or whatever.

We cannot hear you, but you will hear us soon!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and all who fight with her Amen

Catherine:

Where's the rest of your usual sign-off? Come on, that's your trademark! I've even copied it and used it myself (giving you credit, of course).

Dina,
You can find peace when you
give up living for approval.
Blessings,
Aleeahu

Business is organized endeavor;
The product may be for good or evil.
Religion is a business for power,
God writes no edicts, the hand of Satan does it.

God gives life, scriptures judge to desecrate it.

It Matters Not...
If you are white, black, colored, or hairy;
If you are Orthodox, Liberal, Conservative, or Radical;
If you are from America or Zimbabwe
Youth is rebelling or having a roll
If you are the parent, you pay the toll.
You can only forgive...or
EAT YOUR HEART OUT ! !

First Islam is known as to be the fatstest growing religion in the world after 9/11 and this is not only form my point of view but as a prooven fact. After 9/11 people started to think twice of the religion they believe in and they come to think of it does Christianity actually state to be vicious and harm other ethinic groups or religions? Does it state that Bush should bomb other countries and have women in there army to rape men? Common come to think of it Islam is actually the most peaceful religion you can find. And for our God, Allah who many people think he is satan and that our book the Quran prooves facts that happen in the future and no other person can write or come up with something that Allah has stated in the Quran. To prove this Allah states "This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your Religion. Quran (5:3) " and this is true He, the ALmighty has perfected our religion and thats why we are on the straight path.

So, am I to believe you mean that being as Islam has seen an increase in converts post 9/11 is being held as some standard for truth? That makes no logical sense. Just because a bunch of people join on to any ideology doesn't mean there is any truth to it, it might just mean that there are people out there who are gullible enough to believe anything.

As to Malcolm X's quote: "…. America needs to understand Islam, because it is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem…I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color."

Of course, this applies to everyone - except the Jews. ;-)

Sorry about that last comment, I knew I was being facetious when I wrote it.

Islam does have a big race problem though, when in pertains to those who are not Muslim. Then they are free to be as hateful of the race, or country as they choose.

CGW:
“Statistically, Christianity is actually the fastest growing religion worldwide, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS have converted since 9/11.”
Wrong. Go learn your numbers, Islam is the fastest growing religion because people are beginning to realize how beautiful and truthful it is.
Catherine;
“mulsums to sat it is not their way to cut mens heads off and ot cut babys from the wombs of their mothers and where is the outrage some would do that in the name of their god or rock or whatever”
From here, anyone can conclude that you have no clue as to what you are saying. So, I repeat, learn more about Islam before making invalid and false statements about it. I agree, what happened to Nick Berg was disgusting, and I was completely sickened by it. Because, Islam does not allow the death of innocent people, and what they did was absolutely against the religion of Islam. But, that does not give you the authority to assume that Islam is only based on killing and blood, or to judge Islam on a group of people who are NOT even following Islam the way it should be followed.
“God Bless the USA and all who fight with her Amen”
More like, God Bless the USA for torturing innocent civilians, and having to wait 5 days before apologizing on behalf of the American soldiers who harassed Iraqi prisoners, for feeding the people of the Us wrong information, ….man, I could go on and on.
Oh yes, why don’t you guys reply to what your ‘bible’ says about women? Seems to me as if you guys have realized the truth, but are too stubborn and arrogant to admit it. Hmm,..’Seems to me as if you guys have overlooked the facts on womens status declared by your Bible.

“So, am I to believe you mean that being as Islam has seen an increase in converts post 9/11 is being held as some standard for truth? That makes no logical sense. Just because a bunch of people join on to any ideology doesn't mean there is any truth to it, it might just mean that there are people out there who are gullible enough to believe anything.”
Wow, Paula. I must admit, from all the other responses I have received, yours seems by far the most pathetic. Logically, (that is, if you have any), when there is in increase in something, it is mostly because of the people and because of their attraction or liking to it. So what you’re saying is this: when a business man is selling something, and realizes that his profit is increasing, he’s going to think that O, its not because people like my toy or my invention, its just that because I have THOUSANDS of idiots who are constantly buying it.

“Islam does have a big race problem though, when in pertains to those who are not Muslim. Then they are free to be as hateful of the race, or country as they choose.”
Just because we do not like non-muslims that talk crap and spread false statements regarding Islam that does not mean we are racist. There is a difference between anger and racism. And tell me, can u relate?

Dina,

I never attacked you in what I said, please do not attack me. I am simply pointing out a logical argument. People can be sincere in their adoption of any ideology - and they can be sincerely wrong. Many people in the 30's and 40's bought into Nazism and Nazism is in the dust bin of history. The number of adherents to an ideology and/or any other way of thought proves NOTHING, except that people are willing to believe in it - that is all it proves.

Dina and Nisren:

Where is your objective statistical proof that Islam is the fastest growing religion? Quote authoritative sources.

Pornography has a lot of converts, too ... does that make it Truth and holy?

Paula,
sorry about that, but what really angers me is the fact that people still want to believe that Islam is a religion of terror, even when they are presented the truth and facts. Fine, believe what you want about:
"The number of adherents to an ideology and/or any other way of thought proves NOTHING, except that people are willing to believe in it - that is all it proves."
But, Islam is not a religion of terror, nor does it encourage it.

CGW:
My bad, I made a mistake.sorry.
"The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years." (gotten from CNN website). And pornography is not a religion, so do not bring it into this debate.

Dina,
First off, the bible was written millions of years ago in a time where women were viewed much differently than today. It is merely an idea and is followed loosely.
"You’re saying that the media lies better then the govt…then god only knows what you’re doin." I was stating that the media lies about what is going on in additon to our government, who gives you the right to ask me what I do? You do not rule over me and I was acutally trying to say that although things are said in the media, it does not mean it should be believed. They are trying to make ratings....I know Muslim women who are beaten and they have told me it is perfectly okay because of how society looks at them so prior to me saying anything, I go to the source, real people.
"What, so your definition of freedom is when the girls go out half-naked with tight clothing? So that they go out with their boyfriends, and get pregnant the next day, which demolished their future? Is that called freedom to you?" Why should anyone cover themself up because it is dictated to them to do so. You choose to wear your scarf, you are proud of you are but you have the choice to wear it or not, women under rule that I was speaking of, like, Saudi Arabia where they are policed outside, do not have a choice and I never said I want a girl going out half naked and getting pregnant, gee, aren't we going off the deep end? Putting words in my mouth thank you I really appreciate that. You did not read what I wrote as again I will state, the freedoms American women have vs. freedoms of Middle Eastern/Islamic women are very different and in most cases, we have more rights. I take it you live here in the US, that makes you an American citizen where you have the freedom to wear your scarf, drive a car, open a business, do whatever you wish as we have laws that protect women. Getting back to wearing your scarf outdoors, I do commend you for being proud of who you are...especially after 9/11 that takes great pride and courage....I have never stated negatively about Muslims or even that I hate them and I can say that your faith means a great deal to you as mine does to me. And for the record, if I had a copy of the Quran, I would read it so that I can have a better understanding but when I am told by several Muslim women about the abuse and lack of freedoms, who is more believable? One friend escaped from Iran losing her children because she couldn't take the constant beatings from her husband and he was a Muslim and read the Quran everyday. Certainly she can't be lying, and her face tells me the entire story, filled with scars and tears coming down her face. I'm sorry but no matter what, that leads me to believe in nothing but violence. In the end we have to live together whether we like it or not I just think we need to have a better understanding of one another.

Dina, aliyah and Nisren,

You are wasting your time here. You are not going to convince any of us - we know better. We are used to Muslims visiting this site and using relgious invective, as opposed to civilized, rational argument, to try and convince us that Islam is not the cult we have discovered it to be through RESEARCH. I'll wager that none of you have read a single one of Spencer's books, or books by Ibn Warraq, a former Muslim, or even reads the articles on this site and on Dhimmi Watch. You think you have a monopoly on the Truth because your idol tells you so. Well, we INVESTIGATE, and find you to be wrong.

Can you make reasoned arguments NOT based on religious beliefs? I'd like to see an entire long paragraph by any of you where you do not once mention your belief system and how glorious you think it is but instead just address issues calmly and rationally.

Eventually we get tired of the noise and tend to just skip over the long-winded, repetitive Muslim posts - we've seen it all before, and it got old and tiresome a long time ago.

Aliyah,
Yes I said they have certain rights and I agreed to a point but you are making it sound like I totally made an entire new point and I did not. Yes there are exceptions to everything however, it is being said more and more that men of the middle east do not respect their wives, they may have several wives, why is that so? That doesn't show much respect to the wife. When I am told by Muslim women to my face they were abused and it was done even in public and no one said boo, there is a problem. These men look at their wives as property, that is not normal. If an American man does that to his wife, he will be punished. In Arab countries, the police doesn't care, what is wrong with that? Oh, I know, the Muslim women I have befriended are all lying to me right? Come on, one woman left her abusive husband before he killed her, she has scars on her face and cries almost everyday because she could not take her children with her, it is against Iranian rule so not only did she lose what she knew but she lost her family and can never return because she will be killed by her husband and the families, I do believe that is very sick. She left and it was very hard for her to do so, but she knew she deserved better and she even stated, "that is not something an Iranian wife does ever". Maybe I should have her come on here and post, it might open up some eyes as to the real truth about women in Middle Eastern countries.

Dina,
By the way, the idea behind the scarf wearing I must say is beautiful. They say a person's eyes leads you to their soul. Unlike others, I'm not an animal and Muslim hater and can see the beauty in certain things. Iran has some lovely mosques and the countryside is breathtaking.

"Paula,
sorry about that, but what really angers me is the fact that people still want to believe that Islam is a religion of terror, even when they are presented the truth and facts. ...

Posted by dina at May 17, 2004 07:42 PM"

That's Ok dina. I have no problem that you have a difference of opinion on these matters. In fact, I have no problem when people get passionate about things they believe and feel deeply. It must be very difficult for you to come onto a site that presents a different picture of what you know from your experience and very hurtful. All of that I can respect.

But please, please try not lump us all in the same group. There are people on this site who are rabidly anti Islam and those who aren't; there are those who are open to listening to what you have to say and those who are not. Personally, I have deep reservations about Islam from what I have read and learned. Islam throws a bad shadow before it. So, for that matter does communism, capitalism, Christianity and any other group you can point at. The question isn't whether we have something of which to be ashamed - for we ALL do, the question is how we can learn to live with one another.

My belief is that people get agressive when they feel backed into a corner. This is an animal response that all of us have within us. The strength of an ideology is not based upon how many people believe something but whether or not they can live and let live with people who do not agree. And ALL OF US fail in that, to greater and lesser degrees.

Why is it that everyone (this is my personal rant not directed to you, just given to all of us) cannot just allow everyone else to have their own opinion in matters of faith? Why do we have to convince others that WE have the TRUTH and try to push it on others? Are we all so insecure of our positions and faith that we cannot allow others to come to their own opinion? It doesn't make sense to me. Most of the people on this site would have very little problems with Islam, if we didn't believe that Muslims aren't trying to push us into believing their viewpoint. On the whole, we in the West tend to believe in a "live and let live" fashion. It is simple to live that way; And it doesn't take much - only respect for another person's right to have a different opinion on life. At least, this is the way I see it.

I do not consider myself anti Islam nor am I a Muslim hater.I maybe accused of it but I don't feel all Muslims need to go back to their countries or be killed.........I am passionate about things and can't help that. I have never stated that Islam needs to be abolished..my main arguements is more about how women are treated in Arabic nations. I am trying to stay away from the Quran until I buy myself one and I have said things in the past but only because my church did a bible study shortly after 9/11 to try and understand Islam. But I will be more than happy to brush up on my own readings. The bottom line is like Paula said, there are differnces no matter what and teh best this website can do is educate everyone but no matter what, no person is better than the other.

Paula and Lisa:

Don't be naive.

"The bottom line is like Paula said, there are differnces no matter what and teh best this website can do is educate everyone but no matter what, no person is better than the other."

So you are no better than a mass murderer, or a serial killer? How about a satanist? There are elements in many belief systems that are negative, but that does not make all belief systems morally equivalent. Islam has at its very core tenets that are abhorrent to modern civilized societies. The sooner you learn about them, the more you will understand why the existence of Islam is anathema to freedom and democracy.

Again, read up ... Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq, etc. There's lots to guide you on this website.

CGW,
I can agree with being educated as there is nothing wrong with that and when time allows, I do enjoy that ( I have a small daughter at home to raise and she is very demanding of my full attention) but attacking people isn't what any God wants. I'm not trying to be stupid or believe everything that is posted here, I am by no means naive but until I have the necessary books at my disposal aside from the articles online, I am trying very hard NOW to keep quiet on some topics so I can quote word for word in my arguements.

“First off, the bible was written millions of years ago.”
So was the Quran, CGW, but you don’t see it in different divisions do you? That’s one of the miracles and beauty of it.
“I know Muslim women who are beaten and they have told me it is perfectly okay because of how society looks at them so prior to me saying anything, I go to the source, real people.”
Yes, there are Muslim women who are being beaten, but this does not mean that those men who beat them are following what the Quran says. And those women who said it is perfectly okay, it isn’t! Women are always being degraded in this society, and we are constantly being used and misused as objects in today’s world. Lisa, I’m sorry if I made any comments that were not appropriate, and I’m sure all women, whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, white, or black, all sure a type of bond that exists only between the women. I just hate it to watch a girl or women get abused and beat up by a man, especially if he was a Muslim. About the women you talked about, I believe you, but the fact that she was beaten up by a Muslim man who read the Quran is really disgusting. These so-called Muslims, these nominal followers who are only Muslim by name, should really just stop calling themselves muslims if their behavior and attitude completely contradicts to the teachings of Islam.” I'm sorry but no matter what, that leads me to believe in nothing but violence.” See, this is the wrong part. It is wrong to base a religion based on one person or a group of people, especially if they are not following it the right way. And I do not blame you, because in Islam, we are told that if we follow it the way it should be followed, then people would want to know more about the religion. But, the way Muslims are acting and behaving, certainly not one person would want to know Islam, and would only begin to form negative thoughts about it. However, I am sure we all are capable of researching about Islam, by looking at the Quran and/or the Hadiths. Though I am not a complete expert on Islam yet, I would love to answer or clarify any questions you have about Islam. “In the end we have to live together whether we like it or not I just think we need to have a better understanding of one another.’ Exactly why I am here. I want to make sure people do not get the negative image of Islam, and if they do, I would like to clear it up, because as a Muslim, that is one of my duties.

CGW says, "Can you make reasoned arguments NOT based on religious beliefs? I'd like to see an entire long paragraph by any of you where you do not once mention your belief system and how glorious you think it is but instead just address issues calmly and rationally."
can some1 please make sense of this? how do we not make reasoned arguments not based on religious beliefs??? this is about our religion, isnt it? your atacking, were defending. and why arent we allowed to say how beautiful our religion is? if were not allowed to say that, then YOU have no right to call our religion a cult and other offensive terms. again, you all need to practice what you preach. and where do "Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq, etc" come in? i have all the guidance i need from the Quran, hadith and sunnah, none needed from them.

CGW,

I don't think myself to be naieve. I am aware that not all ideologies are to be considered equal. There are those which are life affirming and those that would enslave us all if given the chance. Despite what I said above, I am also firmly willing and ready to defend myself, others and this country if necessary against anyone who would attempt to take those freedoms away from us. I would do this against any totalitarian type of state or ideology. The problem is, no matter how much we agree, or disagree, with another's viewpoint we are in a very difficult position.

This world is filled with a bunch of well meaning - and not so well meaning - people and all things have to be taken into account on a month to month, decade to decade basis. All of us are contributing to the mess that we will one day hand over to our children and their children. The truth is, like everyone else, I have no answers for the mess we are in. If I did, I would publish a book and make a few billion out of it.

There are two relevant statements I think which apply to the world as we see it today:

1. "The fundamental problems of life are ultimately unsolvable, but they can be outgrown." C.G. Jung

and probably the most compelling:

2. "Man will prey on man, until man will pray for man." Louis Famouso - http://www.near-death.com/forum/0005.html

and you seem to have 'overlooked' my question.
there are certain bibles that write in red ink what God supposedly said. in a few comparisons, why is it that in several different bibles, what God supposedly said(in red ink)was different? and no, it is not the same thing worded differently. the two statements are completely differnt.
and what happened to the whole women rights thing? once dina proves that the Bible itself says that women are much lower then men, and the Quran states that they have many rights, the topic seemed to end right there, for some reason...

Dina,
It's hard when I see these women and they tell me their husbands read the Qu'ran, prayed and are highly respected back home and that women there really dont' have any right to call the police when they do get attacked and as you said, as women, we are naturally going to hit the ceiling. What angers me most is they lost everythign and their husbands have everything. I can't imagine leaving my husband and losing my daughter in the process because he beat me and the courts won't give me custody because it is said the man gets the children no matter what. One woman read me something I don't recall if it was the Qu'ran I believe she said it was, and it was okay for her husband to treat like that because she was property. And what about having all these wives? What, one isn't enough for you? I do fully believe that when time and money allowes it, I will be more than happy to buy a copy of the Qu'ran and educate myself as I have no problem doing so and I'm looking forward to doing so.

CGW;
"You are wasting your time here." Again, you may think i am wasting it, (probably on you) but i am not. If you dont want to listen as to what I want to say, then dont. Because Islam is not what you think it is, and do not spread lies about it. You keep your opinion to yourself, and I will spread the facts about Islam to others.

aliyah:

Again, one-sided guidance. You refuse to even consider that another side of the picture even exists. That means you are unreasonable; unwilling to explore any viewpoint but your own. That is where we are different; we have examined the issue from many sides, and reached our conclusions based on reason, not because "God said so." That is the most lame argument around, and completely unprovable. Quote all you want, it's still not proof - only what YOU believe.

no, lisa, having more then one wife doesnt necessary mean for pleasure. it can be to take care of others, etc. dina explain more.

good for you, lisa, at least there are some nonmuslims that dont attack Islam viciously. i hope you find what you are looking for in the Quran.

if women have so many rights than why aren't they living better in Middle eastern countries? like i said, the women i have spoken to then have all lied to me about the total lack of freedoms they had in their home countries. unlike some islamics, people read the bible and do not take heed what is written there word for word because our society has changed and it was written when at that time, the world lived like that however we have adapted to something new and in our churches, we are taught to hold women at a much higher level than what was written because our women bear our children, take care of the homes and deserve to be equals not controlled or dominated.

CGW: "Quote all you want, it's still not proof - only what YOU believe."
how is using quotes from reliable sources saying what i believe? you seriously need to reread what you say. first, u tell us not to use arguments based on religious beliefs, and now, you say using quotes is an opinion. riight. please, dont say anymore if u plan to speak like this. and you call MY argument lame and unprovable? okayy

I'm trying not to attack Islam......
The Middle East is so backwards in it's ideals that it's hard to understand why Islam is so cherished. It may not be what the Quran says or doesn't say but a picture does speak a thousand words and when I meet those who have lived there and tell me horror stories, it tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth. Granted, not everythign I have heard was bad, but most of it was.

dina,

On this site, I'm afraid you will often find yourself on the losing end of that battle. Opinions of the sort I espouse predominate here. Most know more about Islam than you - especially the ex-Muslims that post here. Many of us have already researched Islam extensively - they will not consider your words the "truth" about Islam, just more mindless Muslim parroting.

There are many sites where your ideas would be welcomed. This is not one of them. Of course, it is your choice how and where to pick your battles, but you are in for a long, uphill climb.

"CGW: "Quote all you want, it's still not proof - only what YOU believe."
how is using quotes from reliable sources saying what i believe? you seriously need to reread what you say. first, u tell us not to use arguments based on religious beliefs, and now, you say using quotes is an opinion. riight. please, dont say anymore if u plan to speak like this. and you call MY argument lame and unprovable? okayy

Posted by: Aliyah at May 17, 2004 09:44 PM"

Aliyah:

This meant: Quote from the QURAN all you want, it's still not proof - only what YOU believe.

Get it now?

“That's Ok dina. I have no problem that you have a difference of opinion on these matters. In fact, I have no problem when people get passionate about things they believe and feel deeply. It must be very difficult for you to come onto a site that presents a different picture of what you know from your experience and very hurtful. All of that I can respect.”
Thank you. You don’t how much I appreciate this.
“Why is it that everyone (this is my personal rant not directed to you, just given to all of us) cannot just allow everyone else to have their own opinion in matters of faith? Why do we have to convince others that WE have the TRUTH and try to push it on others?”
Ok, I am glad you asked this question. It’s going to be hard to explain this, because both of us have different religions, and we each believe that our religion is the right and true one. But, in Islam, we have something different. See, you have to be a true believer, someone who follows Islam the way it should be followed, to actually appreciate what it teaches, and realize that behind everything it prohibits or allows, there is always a good reason for it. In Islam, the Muslims are told to make Dawah to the non-muslims. That is, to preach Islam to them. Because, really, if you study and learn more about Islam from the reliable sources such as the hadith and The Holy Quran (ignoring the stereotypical images of Islam), you will begin to realize how beautiful a religion it is. And, we the Muslims, believe that Islam is the only and true religion that should be followed, and we want to save all those Non-Muslims from the inevitable. I know you’re probably thinking I am being a bit biased, considering this is coming from a Muslim, but there is no other way for me to put it. Seriously, if you go and research on your own, from the Quran, and read its translation, then I am sure that you will slowly begin to realize how beautiful this religion is.
OK, about the ayah she presented to you that justifed what the husband did to the wife is absolutely incorrect. what that man did to his wife is absolutlely wrong, and about the women you know, Im sorry, but shes got her knowledge of Islam all wrong. I know you wont believe me, because I'm just this stranger who posts comments about islam. But, I still wont give up. Islam has been given a bad name, and I want to change that. If God wills it, I will present to you some ayahs about womens role and status in Islam.And once again, I thank you for at least hearing me out, and not talking trash about Islam. You dont know how much I appreciate it.

"There are many sites where your ideas would be welcomed. This is not one of them. Of course, it is your choice how and where to pick your battles, but you are in for a long, uphill climb."
if we have to stop posting, then so do you. we have every right to post- its a free country as you claim, if im not mistaken?
"This meant: Quote from the QURAN all you want, it's still not proof - only what YOU believe."
i, along with many others. if quotes from the quran arent proof enough, then NO STATEMENT you make is proof, knowing that you dont cite refrences from anywhere but your brain.

aliyah and Dina:

YAWN ...

Dina,
I have actually just spoken to her, Miriam told me that the Quran does have statements about women where it is totally okay for men to discipline his wife like he does his child. She is going to get me actual verses..........she also pointed out that the Quran, just like the Bible can and is mis read by people most of all Islamic extremeists that do evil things in the name of Allah...that nonmuslims must convert before they see the wrath, it is no good to be a nonbeliever. The 9/11 hijackers believe once they carried out these acts in the name of Allah, they would have virgins in paradise and will immediately go to paradise for nonmuslims will suffer unspeakable acts in the name of Allah. Miriam comes from Iran, where she was born and raised and almost killed. She desperately wants to bring her children here to the states but has no rights in Iran. There is something very wrong there! And why would more wives have to help take care of people? I take care of m family on my own, my husband and daughter, I don't need or want anyone else taking my place in my household. I need to get a copy of the Quran like now.

Lisa,
I know you feel outraged by how women are being treated, but you keep forgetting one thing..these so-called Muslim countries are not following Islam the way it should be followed...All the Muslim women in the US know this, and we are trying to do something about it. No, I am not saying that these women have lied to you, because I dont even know them, and I am not God to judge them. I feel sorry for these women out there who are being abused by their husbands and this is wrong and unjust. But what they do is out of their own will, and is no way connected to Islam. Also, it is extremly sad that not one so-called Muslim country follows the Islamic laws of governing (Sharia). I really really hope you have the chance to study Islam, the Quran, the Hadith and everything. MAybe that way it will clear evreything up for you.

Dina,
I am very open to educating myself I am not ashamed to say that, if I wasn't on a fixed income, I'd buy the Quran tomorrow but my daughter comes first. I read somewhere and I'm trying to remember where, that Saudi Arabia follows the Sharia. I am actually going to try and see if I can find anythign that will help my friend get her children out of Iran and come home to her, her heart is breaking and being a mother myself, I can't imagine living my days without my little girl. Can the state embassy do anyting?

CGW,
um...if you haven't been noticing, i have been ignornig you...you are a completely hopeless case...go on and believe what you want...because one day the truth will hit you hard...and dont tell me whether I am being succesful or not, thats not for you to decide..dont like what im saying? Live with it..because really you are pathetic. You dont even want to try understanding anything I say, even though it is true. I will do my duty as a Muslim, and I will not let a pathetic creature like you stop me from doing so. But, I hope to god, That you do realize the truth, and that Islam is not a blood cult. and one thing, I am not here to convert anyone to Islam. I am just here to clarify what Islam really is about, not what you think its about. So you can go ahead and leave your mouth wide open,

Lisa,
I know you feel outraged by how women are being treated, but you keep forgetting one thing..these so-called Muslim countries are not following Islam the way it should be followed...All the Muslim women in the US know this, and we are trying to do something about it. No, I am not saying that these women have lied to you, because I dont even know them, and I am not God to judge them. I feel sorry for these women out there who are being abused by their husbands and this is wrong and unjust. But what they do is out of their own will, and is no way connected to Islam. Also, it is extremly sad that not one so-called Muslim country follows the Islamic laws of governing (Sharia). I really really hope you have the chance to study Islam, the Quran, the Hadith and everything. MAybe that way it will clear evreything up for you.

Dina,
I am very open to educating myself I am not ashamed to say that, if I wasn't on a fixed income, I'd buy the Quran tomorrow but my daughter comes first. I read somewhere and I'm trying to remember where, that Saudi Arabia follows the Sharia. I am actually going to try and see if I can find anythign that will help my friend get her children out of Iran and come home to her, her heart is breaking and being a mother myself, I can't imagine living my days without my little girl. Can the state embassy do anyting?

Well, I really do not know how Saudia Arabia functions, but I will do some research and if god wills it,I will notify you. One of my teachers has studied the Sharia, and he knows alot alot more than I do. I will ask him. And I understand that your daughter comes first, but if you want to know more about Islam, I will gladly help.

Lisa:

I read somewhere and I'm trying to remember where, that Saudi Arabia follows the Sharia.

They follow their version of it, yes. Sadly, women in Iran have more rights than they do in Saudi Arabia, however.

The Saudis are probably the last place you should look for help with your friend's situation.

Lisa:

Some examples of Sharia law:

"1. Offensive, military jihad against non-Muslims is a communal, religious obligation;
2. A person who is ignorant about Islamic legal opinion must follow the legal opinion of a scholar;
3. The penalty for a Muslim apostate (someone who no longer believes in or no longer follows the tenets of Islam) is death;
4. When slaughtering animals for food, a knife must be used to cut the windpipe and gullet;
5. A woman is only eligible to receive half the inheritance of a man;
6. Marriage may be forced on virgins by their father or father’s father;
7. A non-Arab man may not marry an Arab woman;
8. A woman must seek permission from her husband to leave the house;
9. A Muslim man cannot marry a woman who is a Zoroastrian, an idol worshipper, an apostate from Islam or a woman with one parent who is Jewish or Christian, with the other being Zoroastrian; a Muslim woman cannot marry anyone but a Muslim;
10. A free Muslim man may marry up to four women;
11. Retaliation is obligatory in most cases when someone is deliberately murdered except when a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, a Jew or a Christian kills a Muslim apostate or a father or mother kill their offspring;
12. Non-Muslim subjects (Ahl al-Dhimma) of a Muslim state are subject to a series of discriminatory laws – “dhimmitude”;
13. The penalty for fornication or sodomy is being stoned to death;
14. The penalty for an initial theft is amputation of the right hand. Subsequent thefts are penalized by further amputations of feet and hand;
15. A non-Muslim cannot testify against a Muslim in court; a person who is “without respectability” cannot give legal testimony; a woman’s legal testimony is only given half the legal weight of a man’s (and is only acceptable in cases involving property); to legally prove fornication or sodomy requires 4 male witnesses who actually saw the act;
16. The establishment and continuation of the Islamic Caliphate (by force, if necessary) is a communal obligation;
17. Sodomites and Lesbians must be killed;
18. Laughing too much is forbidden;
19. Musical instruments are unlawful;
20. Creating pictures of animate life is forbidden;
21. Female circumcision, which includes the excision of the clitoris, is obligatory;
22. Slavery is permitted;
23. People may be bribed to convert to Islam;
24. Beating a rebellious wife is permissible; and,
25. Lying is permissible in a time of war (or jihad).

For anyone who would like to see the actual legal clauses regarding the above examples with detailed references, I invite you to visit the following web address where I have posted this information:

http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/21475"

By the way, you should be able to get a copy of the Quran at the public library and read it for free. If you want a balanced view, read Robert Spencer's books, also available at the public library. Ibn Warraq's book "Why I am no longer a Muslim" shou;d be helpful, also.

Thank you, at this point I need to read it myself and then ask for clarification. Until I read and learn on my own what people tell me doesn't mean much and Im not trying to be rude about that, I've learned that people will tell you what they want you to know and not that you would however, I search for the truth. I hold very dear the teachings of Jesus as you do of Allah; I was raised with the bible throughout my childhood years and now adult years and I have a better understanding now through many bible studies with my pastor and friends. I only hope I can do the same with Islam. Oh, the state embassy can't do anything, they are Iranian citizens and therefore, cannot leave the country without written permission and clearance from the government. How sad is that? Iran claims to be an Islamic country if that being the case, why then can't this woman have her children?

The Cavalry - lobo91!!!

Dina,
Thank you, at this point I need to read it myself and then ask for clarification. Until I read and learn on my own what people tell me doesn't mean much and Im not trying to be rude about that, I've learned that people will tell you what they want you to know and not that you would however, I search for the truth. I hold very dear the teachings of Jesus as you do of Allah; I was raised with the bible throughout my childhood years and now adult years and I have a better understanding now through many bible studies with my pastor and friends. I only hope I can do the same with Islam. Oh, the state embassy can't do anything, they are Iranian citizens and therefore, cannot leave the country without written permission and clearance from the government. How sad is that? Iran claims to be an Islamic country if that being the case, why then can't this woman have her children?

This should have been added to the Sharia section right before the quotation marks:

Posted by: Mentat at May 13, 2004 10:06 AM

CGW,
I realize the library is a wonderful resource, I'm afraid I can't get there during the week, hubby needs the car for work (we're a one car family right now) and no one in my neighborhood will take me, they must have something against knowledge! On Sundays we believe it is the Lord's day and all we do is church and then home to rest, we follow that strictly and is quite nice to do so. I am trying to find other avenues to get the books I want. I never knew that Sharia has so many rules, especially the one about women really pissed me off!

Lisa:

Iran claims to be an Islamic country if that being the case, why then can't this woman have her children?

Because, contrary to what certain individuals are trying to tell you here, that IS precisely what Sharia law says.

I've seen the way things work in Saudi Arabia firsthand. The women who've told you horror stories about what it's like there or in Iran weren't lying to you.

Lisa:

How do you like #21? Do you know what that MEANS? You have a daughter ...

Read especially #16. The Islamic Caliphate means that non-Muslims will either convert or die. This is considered an inevitability in Islam. Which will you choose?

lobo91,
oh I believe them...I've read Betty Mahmoodys' book several times and cried each time, they are treated like pieces of shit, worse than shit, even shit gets more respect. This crap about having more than one wife really burns me, if my husband did that crap, he'd lose his manhood and anything else I could take from him. Why the hell can't women fight and unite to overthrow these bastards who rule them?

CGW,
yes I know what 21 means, it's f**ing disgusting! I'd kill anyone who hurt my daughter. I have no plans of converting to Islam, I will study it but my heart and faith lays in Jesus Christ now and forever. It is perfectly okay for a man to hit his wife, give me a break! If my husband hit me he would be dead, period. I won't take that shit from no man, no man rules me, I might be small and a bit heavyset but shit, rat posion works real well if need be!

I know I'm Christian and talking about rat poison goes against my faith but I'm human.

Muslims:

If you will not hear what we say about Islam, why don't you read what your fellow Muslims are saying? Follow the posted link below to an Islamic website and see for yourself:

"In the last two years I have use a Islamic website to see for myself what the Quran states about Jews and Christians,just search for
www.al-islam.com on-line and pick Quran from the menu on the left. then use the search box to type in Christian,Jews,infidel,Jihad,enemies,and other
examples to prove the intent of Western Muslims.
The truth stand on its own,these verses appearing from your searches are in the Quran and
Muslims can cite whatever line they want to portray Islam as meaning "Peace and Love" .

NO ISLAM - KNOW PEACE

Posted by: Allen Walker at May 15, 2004 06:17 PM"

Lisa:

"I know I'm Christian and talking about rat poison goes against my faith but I'm human."

I took your comment as a joke. I thought it was pretty funny - it got a chuckle out of me! :)

CGW,
Can you please email me that site you have posted, I'm not at a place right now where there's pen and paper handy and I would really like to check stuff out when I am free to do so.
Thank you

Lisa:

Why the hell can't women fight and unite to overthrow these bastards who rule them?

Well, the whole "not being allowed out of the house without a male escort" thing tends to put a crimp on things, for starters. And Iran (and Iraq, under Saddam) severely restrict Internet access.

Basically, for most women raised in that culture, it's literally all they know.

If you told the average Saudi woman what your life is like in America, she would look at you like you were from Mars.

CGW,
Thanks, I try to use humor when I can:)

Lobo91,
It is so sad, that's all these poor women know! Until my friends came here, they had no idea how life was like here for me or any woman really. What made you go to Saudi Arabia and how long were you there for? Women are beaten in the streets I have been told and no one does anything. Can you imagine that happening here? Most men would come to the womans aide real quick.

Lisa:

What made you go to Saudi Arabia and how long were you there for?

Military. About 6 months.

Women are beaten in the streets I have been told and no one does anything.

Quite true.

Can you imagine that happening here? Most men would come to the womans aide real quick.

Again, it's a matter of being raised in totally different cultures. It wouldn't even occur to a man in Saudi Arabia to interfere with another man who was beating his wife or daughter, because he would assume that she'd done something to deserve it.

The fact that American men don't stand for that sort of crap is one of the reasons the Saudis keep foreigners in their own little compounds, as much as possible.

Lobo91,
Being that you are an American, how the hell did you stop yourself from not going up to those man and beating them? I can't imagine that it was easy to see something like that. No one deserves to beat like that but again, it's their culture. I sure hope a Saudi man never has to deal with an American man, he would get the shit kicked out of him and then some!

Lisa:

I'm somewhat embarassed to admit that my e-mail is not working properly right now. (I'm working on it.) You can either return to this page at a later time and copy it or e-mail me first and I can then respond.

CGW,
You're killing me here! I'll have to email you when I get home, more than likely tomorrow at somepoint. The computer I'm using now I can't really do much with which sucks!

Lisa:

They do a pretty good job of briefing people before they send them to that part of the world. I'm on temporary duty working to prepare a National Guard brigade for deployment to Iraq, and the cultural briefings they have today are even more involved than what we got in the past.

Lisa:

That's fine, just make sure to identify yourself in the subject line so I don't delete you automatically. Regulars to this site get a lot of "undesirable" mail, hacking attempts, viruses sent, etc.

CGW,
OH JOY!So not only do we get attacked on here for speaking our minds but we have to deal with that kind of crap as well! Gee, I see the peace in that.

Lobo91,
Well at least you have those briefings but it still must have been hard for you to have to view that if you did.

CGW:

Regulars to this site get a lot of "undesirable" mail, hacking attempts, viruses sent, etc.

And here I thought it was just me...

Lisa:

Sorry to say it, but there's a war coming, bigger than you can imagine. All you can do is prepare yourself. This stuff is nothing in comparison to the greater danger we face.

I think we're the only ones left on here this evening or at least right now.

CGW,
Makes me wonder why I had my daughter with this stuff going on. I'm not sure how to prepare myself, not sure what is coming really besides the anti christ. Not sure I can deal with much more than that.

Lisa:

You can deal with anything for your daughter's sake. She deserves a free and democratic society in which to live out the best of all possible futures. Who - or what - do you think is the anti-Christ? What is the Great Lie? Read and learn. Knowledge IS power.

Remember, Good WILL eventually triumph over Evil, but not without a fight. You can remain steadfast in your loyalty to your country and your commitment to your faith and do whatever becomes necessary to defend them both. I know it's scary when you start to learn about these issues, but remember - We WILL prevail! And you can be strong in the face of adversity - you must be.

lobo91:

I guess the mean girls went home. Thanks, you're my hero! :)

Dina,

You are making my point for me when you say:

"Ok, I am glad you asked this question. It’s going to be hard to explain this, because both of us have different religions, and we each believe that our religion is the right and true one. But, in Islam, we have something different. See, you have to be a true believer, someone who follows Islam the way it should be followed, to actually appreciate what it teaches, and realize that behind everything it prohibits or allows, there is always a good reason for it. In Islam, the Muslims are told to make Dawah to the non-muslims. That is, to preach Islam to them."

My questions in the self described "rant" were not questions for which I expected an answer. They were a reproach, or rebuke, for those people whose religion feels it has the duty and "right" to push itself on others against their will. Everyone has a right to believe what they will, but those rights end at my nose. I am sure you wouldn't be so excited if I started preaching to you to accept another religion or way of thought, Why do the Muslims have the unmitigated arrogance to think they have the right to force their religion on other people? What makes the Jihadi's in Nigeria, Kosovo, India, Thailand, Sudan and all of those other places think they have the right to push Sharia law on populations of Christians, Hindus and anamists against their will? Then, when they don't get what they want, (i.e. the non-Muslims don't see the beauty of Islam that is so obvious to you) the Jihadis bring out the machetes and AK 47's. You may believe that Islam is the most beautiful religion in the world, but to those outside of it, we see it as a repressive, hate-filled, murderous ideology - and not much more.

One final question: "What happens to the person who hears the message of Islam, sees the "beauty" which you say is there - not once but multiple times, and still decides they are not interested in giving up their religion to become a Muslim?"

This last question, btw, is not hypothetical. I truly want you to answer it honestly.

Oh, and please do not try to dodge out of that question by saying, "Well, if they really saw the beauty of Islam, they would accept it without question." I want you to take the question seriously. Let's say the person has argued back and forth with the Imam and despite everything they have learned about Islam, from the Muslim perspective, they still choose to live in a religion outside of Islam.

Paula:

I didn't mean to ofeend you earlier.

I've often admired your posts here at Jihad Watch; they're intelligent, well-reasoned and insightful.

Oops! "offend"

CGW
all i would like to say is that in the obove you have stated some of the Shariah Laws and these are probably made up ones from an unknow website and not from an Islamic Source, because we know our Shariah Laws and it Specifies more than what you have put and listed. These are some of the Shariah Laws:1. What is the Islamic Shariah?

The Islamic Shariah is the Islamic law which applies to all aspects of the life of a Muslim. The Shariah includes all aspects of life, from daily activities, ibadah (worship), criminal law and everything else. It is obligatory on every Muslim to respect and follow the Islamic Shariah in every aspect of their life. It is also obligatory on Muslim nations to implement the Islamic Shariah, and make it the source of all law and legislation.

2. What are the sources of the Shariah?

The main sources of Shariah as explained by the scholars are the following:

The Holy Qur'an

The Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him)

The ijma' (consensus) of Islamic scholars

The ijtihad (opinion of the Islamic scholars based on their knowledge and research)

For a Muslim, all matters, laws and legislation must be according to the Islamic Shariah to be acceptable. The previously mentioned sources of the Shariah must be used in the order they were given. A verdict on any issue is first researched in the holy Qur'an, then the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). If no verdict can be found in these two sources, then the scholars of Islam must look at the issue, research and study it, and come up with a suitable verdict.

Islamic scholars have their own scientific methods that they follow in order to extract a verdict. This science is called usool al fiqh, and is a very large subject that can be studied in hundreds of Islamic books.

3. Why should Muslim's implement the Islamic Shariah in their lives?

The Islamic Shariah represents the will of Allah (swt) and His messenger Mohammad (pbuh). As Muslims, we must go about all matters according to the will of Allah (swt). In the holy Qur'an, Allah (swt) has revealed to humanity many verdicts and solutions to many of the problems faced by us. In order to be a true beleiver in Allah (swt), and in order to worship Allah (swt) only, we must follow the guidance of Allah (swt).

The holy Qur'an also instructs us to follow the messenger of Allah (swt), prophet Mohammad (pbuh). There are many ayat to this effect, which are discussed under a separate article. Therefore, the will of Allah (swt) is for us to worship Him by following His guidance as revealed in the holy Qur'an and in the Sunnah of prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

Finally, there are many issues that are not covered by the holy Qur'an and the Sunnah. However, the Qur'an and the Sunnah provide the necessary guidelines to allow Muslims to come up with proper verdicts for any and all issues. Therefore, when a verdict about a certain issue is not found in the Qur'an or the Sunnah, the scholars of Islam research this issue and come up with the best possible verdict to make the life of Muslims easier and keeping in mind the best interest of the Islamic Ummah.

Therefore, all Muslims should live their lives according to the Islamic Shariah. Muslim nations should strive to implement the Islamic Shariah in all matters. All laws, legislation, trade, politics and all other matters should be conducted according to the Shariah.

Many nations today rely in their so called "constitutions" on foreign systems of law. Many nations where the majority of inhabitants are Muslims derive their law from western systems of law, such as French or British law. This includes all matters including criminal law and even family law!

How can we continue to abandon the law of Allah (swt) and rely on the man made law?

4. What is the evidence that we must follow Shariah from the Holy Qur'an?

First of all, it should be very clear to anyone that since Allah (swt) has revealed the holy Qur'an, and has sent prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and ordered us to follow him, then obviously Allah (swt) expects us to follow this guidance. However, in addition to this, Allah (swt) has revealed the following ayat:

? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????????

?And whoever does not judge by what Allah revealed, then they are Kafirun.?

Surat Al-Maidah, Ayah 44

??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ? ?? ???? ??????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ????????

?And this (He commands): ?Judge thou between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their vain desires but beware of them lest they beguile you from any of that (teaching) which Allah has sent down to you.? And if they turn away be assured that for some of their crimes it is Allah's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.?
Surat Al-Maidah, Ayah 49

????? ???????? ????? ? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??????

?Do they then seek after a judgment of (the Days of) Ignorance? But who for a people whose faith is assured can give better judgment than Allah??
Surat Al-Maidah, Ayah 50

These verses clearly show that it is an obligation on all Muslims to believe in, implement and follow the Islamic Shariah in all matters in their lives.

5. What about non-Muslims living in a Muslim nation?

From the same ayat quoted above (ayat 40 - 50 of surat Al-Maidah), we find that non-Muslims can practice and implement their own system of law within a Muslim society. Islamic Shariah law is not to be implemented or forced upon non-Muslims.

May Allah (swt) guide us all.

And these are the main 5 sources and from that we build on and we dont make uo things to try to brain wash others.

Yuo tell me that the bible hasnt been changed over these thousands of years and has so many editions to them, your telling me that the gospel hasnt been changed to fit what the jews in the society want. the only book that hasnt been changed is the Quran and it impliments all the Shariah laws.

No offense meant CGW, no offense taken. I am of the personal opinion that the only reason a person becomes offended is that they choose to take offense. As such, I try not to do that too often - and when I do it is for a good reason.

That being said, I truly did not believe you meant anything by the "naieve" comment. Actually, I wish we could live in a world where naievete was truly possible. Maybe sometime in the future?? ;-)

btw, I have also enjoyed your contributions on the board.

Srry all the above question marks were verses from the Holy Book, the Quran idk why they didnt come out but u can check them ur self on the following website www.al-Islami.com .
CGW,
may u place the website that you have recieved the Shariah laws from

Aw, but Nisren here is the rub:

You said: "Many nations today rely in their so called "constitutions" on foreign systems of law. Many nations where the majority of inhabitants are Muslims derive their law from western systems of law, such as French or British law. This includes all matters including criminal law and even family law!

How can we continue to abandon the law of Allah (swt) and rely on the man made law?"

To which we say, we do not believe in Mohammed. We do not believe he was a prophet. Therefore, anything he has to say has no meaning to us and his law (Shariah Law) is as man-made as the constitional laws you seem to look down upon.

This is the reason Mohammed began to turn against the Jews. He was convinced that once they heard his message, they would convert and follow him. They did not and he had a temper tantrum and started talking hateful about them.

You see Mohammed as a prophet, bringing the truth of "Allah" into the world. We see a self appointed prophet, who used religion to dominate others and excuse his own murderous and libidinal excesses.

I am afraid there can be no rapproachment between us on this point.

Paula,
You see life clearly through tolerance.
The creators light shines through you.

Nisren et.al.
You live for approval.
Where you find agreement you have gotten nothing.
God sends no prophets(humiliating beasts)
she whispers within, the peaceful will know.

Men of honor seek god through goodness in women.
Your gentle adversary is your asset.

Wish I could follow you, Aleehu. I remain a stupid, benighted Christian--even if I won't throw any rocks at my Muslim neighbors, unless they first throw them at me.

I ran into the following limerick, in which someone tried to put himself into 7th century shoes (whose?):

A guy named Muhammad said, "God,
Must think it uncommonly odd,
That the Christians and Jews
Greet my messages with 'boos',
And the Qureysh wish me under the sod."

Kepha:

I believe that Aleeahu may be expressing Wiccan concepts ( a nature religion) although I'm not entirely sure.

Kepha,
Your path is your rightful destiny. To feign stupidity is a new twist on this forum. I will paraphrase the message above to Nisren et.al. in
case there were others left speechless.

What have you ever learned from those who agreed with you? The fundamentalists thrive on getting agreement. They retire with the arrogance and hypocricy that is bred by it. Dispute has a purpose; Disruption has none.

Alliances represent comfort knowledge.
Betrayal however comes only from Alliances.

One may be lying to associates though they believe they are being honest.
If a thought like this irritates you, then this thought is intended for you.
Candor that is not genuine is viral to an Alliance. Never feign candor or affection.

Adversaries within, or outside your faith
are potentially a valued source of timely knowledge.

Resenting an adversary is like having your head in the sand.

Respect and candor elicit exchange.

The Adversary is apparent. The Viral Fellowship may not be.

CGW,

Surely you must have original words for universal concepts. The limitation is
always in the labels we hang on to.
We were born with
ten fingers. We were started with 1 + 1
Not subtraction, not deduction.
Unlike the animals with natural instincts.
Human rage comes from addition addiction.

Kindest regards and respect for your previous posts.

Aleeahu:

I think that Kepha was being genuine and humble, not "feigning stupidity".

Your words, while beautiful, do require some additional thinking skills to decipher! And I'm not "feigning stupidity" either, I'm just saying that your way of expressing yourself is a little more esoteric than some of us are used to, and certainly atypical of the majority of posters here.

Beautiful words don't mean much, it all leads to the same agenda, have any and all nonmuslims convert in order to save our souls from the wrath of not being a believer. Sorry but my soul stays with my creator, my god, Jesus Christ who I have loved and known for many years now and do not plan on ever leaving. It is a proven fact time and time again that it is the role of the believer to teach and education the nonbeliever in order for the conversion to take place, I have several friends who have told me this time and time again but they are americanized and even though I ready daily the Qu'ran they too have stated it is the will of every Muslim to lead all to conversion in order to get the souls for Allah and just like the Holy Bible, the Qu'ran can and has been misinterperated by those who see beyond what is written in order to justify cruel evil acts. The 9/11 hijackers were followers of Allah, they proudly proclaimed it and they were doing these things in the name of Allah while living amongst Americans, the whole time they were learning how to hurt us to bring us to Allah. That makes me sick, do not sit here and tell me those I have spoken to are lying to me because I simply won't hear it, I know these people and their hearts, one "converted" to christianity when he learned the truth, isn't that odd? I'm a tolerant person on most things but don't push as I will push back.

I do not read the Qu'ran daily---------they do that was a mistake when I typed that.........

ilovejesus.
you have no evident proof that the hijackers of 9/11 were the followers of Allah. There is no thing that states to u that the hijackers were Muslims. Yuo are nothing but a follower, think your own way and make sure you get yuor facst rite.

COW, you say: "This is the reason Mohammed began to turn against the Jews. ...They did not and he had a temper tantrum and started talking hateful about them.
We see a self appointed prophet, who used religion to dominate others and excuse his own murderous and libidinal excesses."
Just to let you know somwthing, the Jews and Christians were allowed to live under the Muslim rule, completely unhurt, etc.
"60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." this ayah basically means that Allah forbids fighting with people who do not fight with them. "allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly with those who do not fight or do not drive you out of your homes." sooo.....
why would Prophet Muhammed start talking hateful about the Jews? he was ordered bu Allah to spread the message of Islam. if they accept, good, and if not, oh well, theyre on their own, and the truth will hit them one day, a lot harder then they expected. an angel came to the Prophet once, after his message was rejected by the people of Taif. the angel asked if he should bring two mountains together, and destroy all the people there. The Prophet refused to let that happen, and prayed that they would one day accept this message. guess what? some time later, they ALL accepted Islam.
he was not self appointed. if you read up on what you claim, you would know that he was not self appointed, but decided to take on this responsibility after he saw how utterly misguided the people were. did you know that before islam came, people used to bury their daughters alive? once Islam came, then that stopped. you say, according to Islam, women arent treated properly? let me bring up Dina's post again, comparing verses from the Quran to verses from the Bible.
The Prophet Muhammad (S) said the equality of husband and wife is like ‘two teeth in a comb.’ What your Bible says is the following:
“Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, AND THE HEAD OF THE WOMEN IS MAN, and the head of Christ is god, (1 Corinthians 11:3)
“I DO NOT PERMIT A WOMEN TO TEACH OR TO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A MAB; SHE MUST BE SILENT. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one who decieved; IT WAS THE WOMEN WHO WAS A DECIEVE AND BECAME A SINNER.” (1 Timothy 2:12-14)
“If a MAN SELLS HIS DAUGHTER as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.” (Exodus 21:7)
“Now widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty…and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, WASHING THE FEET OF SAINTS…(1 Timothy 5:9,10)

What the Quran says?
“And they (women) have rights (over their husbands) similar to the rights against them, in kindness, but men have a degree of responsibility over them. And Allah is All-Mighty, All Wise. (Quran, 2:228)

“Men are the protectors and maintaners of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). (Quran, 4:34)
as for the shariah, the things that declare punishment- at least they WORK. in america, a person gets sent to jail, gets out and startes doing their crimes once again. in islamic countries, one punishment is more then enough- people never do that crime again.

"and what happened to the whole women rights thing? once dina proves that the Bible itself says that women are much lower then men, and the Quran states that they have many rights, the topic seemed to end right there, for some reason..."

Actually aliya if you look on the time that Dina posted her (then) last comment it was about 5:45pm which is 10:45 pm over on this side of the pond...I went to bed!! ok??

I shall answer her post now... (by the way you still didnt comment as to why Muhammed said you have half the intelligence of a man)

Dina
First off, it was pretty immature of you to call me "kfc". I now have a picture of you as some one in their mid-late teens, which is ok if you are, I just didnt see it as a nessacery comment, and it somewhat diluted your post.
Anyway, back to the thread:

1)"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
Yes God, has given the headship in marriage to the man. Depending on the view you have on headship determines how you see this verse.
God wanted to make His view on how He determines a headship to work by giving the command in the context of an example;
"The head of man is Christ" He is by no means an over bearing authoritarian head over men. He nurtures and cherishes each one of us, and leads us in our daily life, it is a delight to submit our life to him, not a grievous chore. And this as you can see is the example God used to set out how headship should be in marriage.

2)"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."
This is to do with role and position, not whether one is more capable than the other or cleverer etc. Keeping silent is to do with teaching doctrine to men, as you can see if you go read the whole of the verse you quoted from corinthians, women were praying and prophecying without a problem.
You also highlighted "The woman was deceived first and became a sinner" I'm not sure why?? Eve was deceived and in so doing became the first sinner. She received a judgement from God and so did Adam, I dont see what the problem is?

3) (I've copied out more of that section so we can read it in its context)
"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter."
This verse (as is pretty obvious) is to do with the ancient practice of people selling off their kids to pay debts. (Something, which I hope you can appreciate, being a 21st century westerner, I don't know too much about!)
God is not condoning the practice, He said "if" a man sells... You stopped quoting the verse at "she must not go free" But, if you carry on this was for her protection, she had to be 'redeemed' (by a relative)She couldn't be taken away by foreigners.

4) (I've also copied out more of this section so we can read it in its context)
"Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.
As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list.....So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander"
I hope the context explains it, I'm not too sure what you were getting at here either. Although I did notice that you highlighted "Washing the feet of the saints"
This was not a derogortary act, as I guess you're inferring.
Jesus did this also, as an example to us that we are to take the path of servanthood, instead of seeking lofty positions;
"Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.
He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"
Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."
"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."
"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!".... When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
John 13

Regards,
kc.

I know all I need to know, so then all the media news coverage was lying about these so called men, give me a break! I somehow can't see every damn newstation reporting on information that they made up for the hell of it! I don't have to prove anything, I know my country, I'm an American, a true American and ever since 9/11 happened I don't give two hoots about anyone else as it was clearly pointed out, we cannot trust anyone any longer especially those who must make it their creed to to convert. I have trusted friends who have proved their loyalty to the United States and Americans that are my resources as they lived in these places before they left for FREEDOM that America offers. So then I suppose it was okay for people to be rejoicing when 9/11 happened that were Muslim? And don't tell me they weren't, right here in NY at gas stations who proudly said now Allah will be happy and guess what? These people don't deserve to breathe the same air as we do, if you can be happy that thousands were killed and you are goin to dumb enough to say something in public, then you get what you deserve.

The bottomline is this, if you are in this country then you had better learn that we will not tolerate this crap of trying to convert anyone or having to be told to deal with the constant proving that a cult is peaceful! If it is so peaceful then why feel it is your duty to educated others on islam? yes jesus taught his followers to teach others about him but you don't see christians saying it's their duty to teach you about our Saviour. Most of us will not bore those who don't want to hear it unless they ask you don't find anyone asking about Islam, we know all we need to know and it's not from the media, it's from actions. They speak much louder.

while there is nothing wrong persay with being proud of who you are, there is something wrong feeling it's your duty to educate others. you do not have to take on the world as you will not win. just believe in your way as you know the truth right? what does it matter what others think? if they all jumped off the empire state building in the name of of their beliefs to prove themselves, would you do the same?

I think most are forgetting one very important thing:

the foundations of this country were built on Christianity! When we were ruled by Britain, it was Christianity that was the main faith. Until we became a melting pot and WON our freedom that is when things changed. America needs to get more harsh with it's foregin policies. If you weren't born here, you don't belong. This temp visa crap must go. They need to make the laws much more strict in order to protect American people from the terror that awaits at our doors. If Bush had any sense, he would start finding a way to close America's door. We have oil right here, why the hell are we giving OUR HARD EARNED MONEY to foreign countries for their oil? Hell no, it's time to take America back! We need to take care of our Americans living right here who because of our open door policy cannot find decent homes, decent jobs, we cater to those who come to visit and why do we do this? Because we are stupid! When are the lawmakers going to learn this kind of thinking only hurts us and now because of it, there are people here who are learning about us in order to harm us. Don't tell it's not going on. Open your eyes, it's time to take back America.

Aliya;
Its been about an hour now, I answered Dinas post, Please could you answer mine.

Again,please could you explain this Hadith to us;

Hadith by Muslim, Book 1 Number 142;
" It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Umar that the Messenger of Allah observed: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense,"

Awaiting your reply,

kc

aliyah:

You were responding to Paula's post, not mine. Please address your answers to her.

C G W,
Ok, here is plain candid talk so you don't have to excercise your deductive skills.

You have every right to condone your fellow "Christian" for being humble.
I simply did not accept Kepha's claim to being "stupid" Would You? Your candor was therefore,selective, and now by your own words we have two labeled Christians falsly claiming stupidity. Relax, I am only tweeking you for a verbal Akido. Lotsa testimonials to enough stupidity all in this forum.

It is not my intention to put anyone down. Our own words do us in, especially when we try to
tell others off in terms of our certainties. Makes us feel validated,that is all.
(Have you ever read Thomas Paine,"Age of Reason"
Timeless wisdom written in 1794)

My intention was not to teach anything new, but
to make you wonder about what you already know.
I certainly can not teach anything to a fundamentalist such as Dina unless she gives permission or the respect of an open mind.
Sadly humiliation serves
to alter more minds than does reason and respect.

Closing example of candor concerning humiliation:
Proposed punishment for the brutal male.

To have the genitals completely excised by surgically trained women. Further appraisal by
interested parties waiting in line. Camera Ok!
FAIR WARNING: In prison you get
pork to eat and a tunic to wear.

For a better world; Tolerance through respect or else humiliation. Testicles by the ton vs. fear, beheading, and violence. Go figure.

Aleeahu:

I never said I was a Christian. :)

CGW,
‘Laughing to much is forbidden? Who are you trying to kid? Stop spreading rumors and lies. God, this is sickening. Go read the Quran for Gods sake, maybe then you will realize what you are saying is all lies and false.

“If you will not hear what we say about Islam, why don't you read what your fellow Muslims are saying?”
Why, because they are not our fellow Muslims.
www.al-islam.com on-line This is very amusing, because it happens to be so that this website is a false website created by a Jew! Don’t be so thick, any idiot can go and create a website, and portray Islam the way they want to, and claim that they are Muslims. Seems to me, you’ve hit a dead end.

Laura;
“Thank you, at this point I need to read it myself and then ask for clarification. Until I read and learn on my own what people tell me doesn't mean much and Im not trying to be rude about that, I've learned that people will tell you what they want you to know and not that you would however.”
That is a very smart thing to do, and I encourage you to do so. You do not have to believe me or CGW. It is better if you go search for the truth yourself.
“How sad is that? Iran claims to be an Islamic country if that being the case, why then can't this woman have her children?”
I asked an expert on Sharia and Islam, and he said that Saudi Arabia does not follow the Sharia, but some of their rules do. They do not completely follow it, just as how the other countries do not. I don’t know why, but it is disgusting. And another thing, in order to bring the children from Iran, I think your friend has to be a US citizen before doing so. I really don’t have any knowledge on this, so try asking someone who does.
“oh I believe them...”
Lisa, you are contradicting yourself right there. You said you would go research more about Islam before concluding anything. I myself do not even know if half of the Sharia is true. And to think, I have been born and raised as a Muslim and have been taught Islam since first grade. You can’t just go and believe a Christian who is talking about Islam and Sharia. Obviously, that person can be completely or a bit bias towards it, and that is not a reliable source to look from. If you still refuse to do so, then go and read Paul Findleys book, SILENT NO MORE. It is an excellent book to read from.
“Why the hell can't women fight and unite to overthrow these bastards who rule them?”
You know why? Because none of it is true. Not every single Muslim women out there is being abused and harassed by her husband! Of course, there will be some, but it is not because their religion teaches them to. I am sure there are lots of Christian and Non-Muslim wives who are constantly being mistreated by their husbands, but do you
see anyone blaming the religion? If there is a husband that mistreats his wife, it is out of his own nature, out of his own will.
“I know I'm Christian and talking about rat poison goes against my faith but I'm human.” Exaclty, we are all humans, and no one is perfect. We all make mistakes, and it is simply impossible to follow every rule and regulation of Islam. But, that does not mean we don’t try and strive (jihad) to make ourselves better Muslims.

“No one deserves to beat like that but again, it's their culture.”
Exaclty, but not religion.

Lobo:

“I've seen the way things work in Saudi Arabia firsthand. The women who've told you horror stories about what it's like there or in Iran weren't lying to you.”
No one said they were.
“If you told the average Saudi woman what your life is like in America, she would look at you like you were from Mars.”
Yes, they would. Because they would be surprised at how bold the girls over there are, flirting with boys, touching them, cursing, going out in public with light, little, or no clothing on at all. If you think wearing a Hijab (scarf), or and abaya, something loose and thick that does not display the structure of your body, is oppression, then your wrong. We wear it for a very good reason, and that is because men always tend to use and misuse women as objects in todays world. We want them to respect us for who we are, and what we make of our selves. Because Allah, Our Lord, does not look at whether we are rich or poor or green or yellow, He looks past all this, and into our hearts, where our intentions lie. He looks at our deeds, not at our physical persona. That is what I call freedom, Lobo.

Paula:
"What happens to the person who hears the message of Islam, sees the "beauty" which you say is there - not once but multiple times, and still decides they are not interested in giving up their religion to become a Muslim?"
How am I supposed to answer that? I’m not that person now am I? It is totally up to that person. The muslim has done his or her duty, preaching Islam to them, and if they want or do not want to become Muslim is totally up to them. Because, one day, when they do realize the truth, they can’t deny that we have not told them.
“Why do the Muslims have the unmitigated arrogance to think they have the right to force their religion on other people” Muslims are not forcing it to you, you may think so, or is may be true, but that is not the Dawah is to be made. We show them the miracles of the Quran, the one and only reliable source besides the Hadith, and I’m sure it’s hard not to realize how beautiful the Quran is.
“Oh, and please do not try to dodge out of that question by saying, "Well, if they really saw the beauty of Islam, they would accept it without question."
I’m not dodging out of the question if I respond like that, but as I said before, I am not that person so I can’t say much about it. I don’t know if you have read the Quran or not, but go to some mosque, or an Islamic shop where they sell the Quran and read it. The QURAN is completely different from your Bible. Your Bible has like 50 divisions to it, and they are constantly changing it. However, our Quran has been recorded and written in Arabia, in a place where practically most of the people were illiterate. And for those who claim that Prophet Muhammad (S) wrote and made up the whole Quran himself, it is not true. How could he, when he could not read or write?
“This is the reason Mohammed began to turn against the Jews. He was convinced that once they heard his message, they would convert and follow him. They did not and he had a temper tantrum and started talking hateful about them.’
Excuse me Paula, but Prophet Muhammad (S) is the most calm and temper-controlled man. You make him sound like this overgrown baby, and that is not right. Do not talk about people you have no idea about, just as I do not do this to your Jesus.
“We see a self appointed prophet, who used religion to dominate others and excuse his own murderous and libidinal excesses.”
Show me proof, and it should be straight from the Quran or Hadith

Ilovejesus
“The 9/11 hijackers were followers of Allah, they proudly proclaimed it and they were doing these things in the name of Allah while living amongst Americans, the whole time they were learning how to hurt us to bring us to Allah.”
How do you know they did this in the name of Allah? It took quite a while for the US to even figure out who they were, and that is after the plane crash. What, do you have some video or something that was solely addressed to you, and told only you that what they were doing is in the name of Allah?
“I'm a tolerant person on most things but don't push as I will push back.”
So am I.
“These people don't deserve to breathe the same air as we do, if you can be happy that thousands were killed and you are goin to dumb enough to say something in public, then you get what you deserve.”
You guys are really going overboard with 9/11. Innocent civilians die every f***** day, little kids are walking homeless without shelter, food or parents. A little boy was shot by your soldiers, even when he hid in his fathers lap behind a small stone, even when he begged them not to. To make it worse, it was not one soldier who aided in this, but three! How sick is that? Every day, little children are left without parents because of your bullets we pay from our taxes. What do you say to that? At least during 9/11 children were not left homeless, or without food, or were not shot in the head, or pulled by their hair outside their homes, and getting raped right in front of their parents!!!

Uscitizen
“Jesus taught his followers to teach others about him but you don't see christians saying it's their duty to teach you about our Saviour.”
Make sense, one minute you say yes, jesus says to preach, but then you go, “You don’t see us teaching you about our Savior.”’
“… the media, it's from actions. They speak much louder.”

“Words speak even louder then actions.
while there is nothing wrong persay with being proud of who you are, there is something wrong feeling it's your duty to educate others.”
Well, if there is something wrong with educating others, then from your perspective, something is surely wrong with teachers, parents, police officers, and, your Jesus.

KC:
“First off, it was pretty immature of you to call me "kfc". I now have a picture of you as some one in their mid-late teens, which is ok if you are, I just didnt see it as a nessacery comment, and it somewhat diluted your post.”
O gee, I am extremely sorry. Well, see, it happens to be so that I am human, and that I do make typing mistakes. I don’t know about you, but see, my fingers can accidentally slip, and as you will see on the keyboard, the c and f are right next to each other. And another thing, I’m here to clarify the wrong images that is being displayed of Islam, I am not here to make sure I spell peoples name correctly.

“Its been about an hour now, I answered Dinas post, Please could you answer mine.”
I don’t get you people. Are you mocking at us, or do you really want to learn? First of all, that hadith is partially wrong. It is said that most of the women will be in hell because we, the women, are usually ungrateful to our husbands, and because we tempt men easily (if you know what I mean by tempt). And about their knowledge thing, there is a hadith (which I extremely love) that states, “WHEN YOU EDUCATE A MAN, YOU EDUCATE A PERSON, WHEN YOU EDUCATE A WOMEN, YOU EDUCATE A NATION!!!!”

“I shall answer her post now... (by the way you still didnt comment as to why Muhammed said you have half the intelligence of a man).”
I shall answer that, and the reason that was not answered is because I do not talk about matters that I have no knowledge about. That hadith you stated, sounded only half right to me, that is why I had to go and verify it from a Sheikh. The real hadith has already been posted, along with another one.

All of you:

This is what we are being taught about Islam, and this is what is true.
The Holy Quran is Allah’s final message to this world. It was revealed between the years 610 and 632 to Prophet Muhammad (S) who lived in Arabia. The Quran was written down completely in the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (S). The Quran is the only book in history that has survived unchanged for 1500 years. The Quran we read contains the same words and letters that were spoken directly from the Prophet Muhammad (S). This is quite a miracle, especially when you begin to consider the fact that no other group of people can say their book ever changed. One Bible will have chapters and verses another won’t have. Some have words that do not appear in older versions, and when you even compare ancient Bibles, they all have different contents. Only the Quran has survived through the centuries unchanged. There is no other book like the Quran. Every feature of it fits together so well, and there are no problems or mistakes in it. Scholars have poured over it for centuries and come away amazed. There are so many different kinds of Bibles in the world that you could open a whole bookstore devoted to selling them alone. It was revealed to a man whom could neither write nor read, so as to prove to the people that Prophet Muhammad (S) was incapable of making up the whole Quran himself. The Prophet Muhammad (S) memorized the revelations that came down to him, and taught them to other people. In this way, the Quran was safe because so many people learned and discussed its message.
“The relationship between the Quran and science is… a surprise when it turns out to be a one of harmony and not of discord.” (P. 110)
--Dr. Maurice Bucaille “The Bible, The Quran and Science.”
A French scientist wrote this after studying the verses from the Quran that made references to scientific subjects. The Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Quran must be the literal word of God. This also proves that Muhammad (S) is truly a prophet sent by a god. “It is beyond reason that anyone fourteen hundred years ago would have known these facts discovered or proven only recently with advanced equipment and sophisticated methods.” Examples:
“We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance…)
(23:12-14)
‘Literally the Arabic word alaqah had three meanings:
(1) Leech (2) suspended thing and (3) blood clot.
In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others.
The second meaning of the word Alaqah is “suspended thing.” This is the suspension of embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.
The third meaning of alaqah is blood clot. We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage. Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week. Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood. So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond to the meanings accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.
The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means, ‘chewed substance.’ If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage is similar in appearance to a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that, “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.”
How could Muhammad have possible known all this about fourteen hundred years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time. Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad).

Dina:

If you think wearing a Hijab (scarf), or and abaya, something loose and thick that does not display the structure of your body, is oppression, then your wrong.

I've said on more than one occasion here that I couldn't care less what Muslim women choose to wear.

Do you think it was oppression when the Saudi religious police refused to let Muslim girls flee a burning building because they failed to grab the proper garments in their haste to escape?

I (and most sane people) do.

And don't even bother claiming that it didn't happen.

Dina,
Dont f** around with 9/11 I live in NY damnit and those bastards killed millions of people for NOTHING. Children did become homeless and parentless. And I believe that those assholes who live in my city of NY who are stupid enough to sit there and say they are glad millions are dead in the name of Allah need a f** bullet in their heads. I heard it to my f** face so don't sit here and tell me or others that we need to get over 9/11. He was very lucky I didn't have a gun that day. He had the nerve to sit there and be joyous during this tradegy? There were Muslims lost that day for no reason. And in times of war, people will be killed, it's called war whether it's men, women or children. Also when it comes to Jesus's teachings and preaching to others, as much as he wants us to preach it is solely our decision whether or not we choose to on people who don't want to hear it unlike the duty of Muslims. You are choosing to tell us things from the Quran and we in turn will then quote from the Holy Bible but we don't call it our duty to do so. War is ugly, terrorism is ugly, people being killed for no reason is ugly. Islamic extremists do not need to go and make things worse.

Dina,
I would respectfully ask you not to make comments about 9/11 or that people are going overboard with it. I too lost several family members and friends that day and it will never be over for those who lost people much less those of us who live in NY. I agree 100% with USCitizen, if those people were dumb enough to say crap to her or anyone else shortly after those towers were attacked, then they do deserve whatever it is they got or get. That is just plain stupid and dumb on their part. They are the foreigners in our country and being that this attack just happened and many, upon, many people are reacting harshly, they should keep their mouths shut and try to be sympathic as a good number of Arabs where to me that day and the days that followed. But the one that did say to me, "You do realize that this happened because you all willnot convert to Islam and Allah will win the war regardless of by what means" did eat my fist. Oh so he wasn't then at that point proclaiming that he wasn't a follower of Allah? He said he was and went on to say something about that everyone must turn to Allah before he was attacked by others in the grocery store. You have no idea how strong the feelings are in NY and if people here want to post about 9/11 you have no right to tell any of us that we are going overboard with it. You want us to listen to your preaching about Allah, you put up with our banter about 9/11. It's called respect.

i've been reading the posts on this particular article, and the message coming over time and time again from the islamic activists is dont you dare criticise anything we say or do, if you dont agree with islam its because youre stupid and ignorant, you cant criticise anything unless you can quote the koran, ie nothing else has any validity, any act of violence carried out by people in the name of that religion means whoever did it wasnt a muslim because muslims dont do bad things, and we're going to take over the world because god told us to. and we're trying to debate with these people? personally i couldnt give a monkeys what anyone believes, you can believe in angels dictating holy books to people, that the world is flat, that god is a little green man from mars, whatever, what i do object to is the self -assurance that only real fanatics have that everyone must do and think what they say. whether its masked in religion or politics, its totalitarianism, and it must be resisted.

Lobo91,

Don't you know what Propaganda is? Don't you know that you are listening to lie after lie after every single moment? Don't you know what lies the media brings to you? In fact there are 1.2 billion muslims in this world and the fact that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, the truth is if Islam was really such a horrible religion that degrades women THEN WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP CONVERTING TO ISLAM?!?!?!?!!! Think about this...why would anyone convert to a religion that bought unto them misery? Would you as a humane person do that?Idon't think so. You call yourself a muslim yet, do you defend your religion ....no.. you criticize it and utterly despise it so therfore what is your point in calling yourself a muslim? Also, most of the happenings in the mideast are not caused by true believing muslims but by extremists. They misinterpret the Quran to fit their needs and worldly desires. Since islam in your terms is such a bad religion then isn't logical that people won't convert to islam. wouldn't it be then logical that Islam would be the worst religion in the world instead of the fastest growing one?? JUST ASK YOURSELF.

Lobo91,

Don't you know what Propaganda is? Don't you know that you are listening to lie after lie after every single moment? Don't you know what lies the media brings to you? In fact there are 1.2 billion muslims in this world and the fact that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, the truth is if Islam was really such a horrible religion that degrades women THEN WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP CONVERTING TO ISLAM?!?!?!?!!! Think about this...why would anyone convert to a religion that bought unto them misery? Would you as a humane person do that?Idon't think so. You call yourself a muslim yet, do you defend your religion ....no.. you criticize it and utterly despise it so therfore what is your point in calling yourself a muslim? Also, most of the happenings in the mideast are not caused by true believing muslims but by extremists. They misinterpret the Quran to fit their needs and worldly desires. Since islam in your terms is such a bad religion then isn't logical that people won't convert to islam. wouldn't it be then logical that Islam would be the worst religion in the world instead of the fastest growing one?? JUST ASK YOURSELF.

Lobo91,

Don't you know what Propaganda is? Don't you know that you are listening to lie after lie after every single moment? Don't you know what lies the media brings to you? In fact there are 1.2 billion muslims in this world and the fact that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, the truth is if Islam was really such a horrible religion that degrades women THEN WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP CONVERTING TO ISLAM?!?!?!?!!! Think about this...why would anyone convert to a religion that bought unto them misery? Would you as a humane person do that?Idon't think so. You call yourself a muslim yet, do you defend your religion ....no.. you criticize it and utterly despise it so therfore what is your point in calling yourself a muslim? Also, most of the happenings in the mideast are not caused by true believing muslims but by extremists. They misinterpret the Quran to fit their needs and worldly desires. Since islam in your terms is such a bad religion then isn't logical that people won't convert to islam. wouldn't it be then logical that Islam would be the worst religion in the world instead of the fastest growing one?? JUST ASK YOURSELF.

Now, after I have made this comment, you guys all reacted to it, which isnt surprising. You were very defensive about 9/11, and I do not blame you. Thousands of innocent people died. Now, do you know how I feel? What happened in 9/11 is like what you guys are doing to Islam. The bs you guys are spreading about it are wrong. Those Muslim people, who said 9/11 occurred because you did not convert to Islam or that what happened was right, should not have made those comments. In Islam, it is wrong to kill innocent people. And just because you see a Muslim, you cannot assume right away that they follow Islam the way it should be followed. I do not know what was going on in the guys head when he said that, but one things for sure.The Muslims are tired of being oppressed by the Israelis, who are torturing and killing innocent civilians every day EVERY DAY. And whats even worse, is that the US is supporting them with our tax money by supplying them with bullets and guns which are being used against the Palestinians who have nothing but rocks to defend themselves with. If you call 9/11 bad, then you really need to go out of the US, and into some other countries who are suffering every day of their lives. Look at it this way, during 9/11, thousands of people died in one day, and after three four years, it is still affecting everyone. Imagine if 9/11 occurred every day, do you know how much THAT would affect you? How much you would have to suffer? Endless?That is how exactly the Palestinians feel, except, they just dont have the time to weep and cry over their loved ones. They're to wrapped up with keeping themselves alive. Never mind the food or shelter, they just want to breathe.

Totally agreeing to what Dina said , you people dont have any evident proof, and for u CGW you are just to ignorant to learn any thing else, its ok we get it, you can stay in your own little corner and belive wut you want to believe, its ur life, we arent planning to change it for you because how i said its YOUR LIFE, but you will pay for it in the end and you will see who is right. And for any of us to type a paragrapgh withou including and of our beliefs here you go you have one right here. But our beliefs and are resources and to proof to you that not anything comes from our brian and we want to say it we say it, we think before we speak. And the resources and verses and ahadith are to proove you wrong if you didnt get it until now. And the whole issue on 9/11 that is nothing considered to how many inncoent children, women, men and infants that are being killed everyday by Bush and Sharon? Tell me is that following there religion, does it say in the bible or gospel, "go out and kill all those you dont like" ? Tell me do you have anythign that says that?

It seems like no one is deciding to respond to anything that Dina and I have wrote or said? Are you people actually trying to find resources to back u your statement? Yes thats what I thought and for CGW " Keep Yawning "

It seems like no one is deciding to respond to anything that Dina and I have wrote or said? Are you people actually trying to find resources to back u your statement? Yes thats what I thought and for CGW " Keep Yawning "

the palestinians have nothing but rocks to defend themselves with????????????? are you taking the piss or what? are they magic exploding rocks?, is that how homicide bombers do it?, they just fill their trousers up with rocks and hey presto, the rocks explode!, and are there special rocks that look exactly like russian ak47 assault rifles, and fire other magic rocks that are shaped exactly like bullets? do tell me where they get the really good rocks the ones that look just like rpg7 rocket grenades? i assume you can make this kind of lunatic statement because you really do believe that we are stupid enough to believe it!

ultach,
all the was in the begining the palestinians didnt have rock sto defend themselves, but in order for the jews to defend themselves they took away all palestinian weapons to not be harmed , they couldn face it without any weopons so they took the palestinian weapons. and go back to sqaure one and know the histroy before you speak. Another thng it is known that the jews didnt have a country to begin wit, look at the maps back then it was written PALESTINE, not no Israel. And dont forget the History of the jews and HITLER, rember hinm rite because he gave the jews one good of a lesson.

i suggest you go and look at some maps and read some FACTUAL history, you only have to go back to the balfour declaration, PALESTINE covered present day israel and most of jordan, west palestine was intended for a jewish state, east palestine for arabs, there was no mention of "palestinians". or why not go back real far in time, say before the romans came up with the name "palestine" for an area that had been called israel and judea for oh, what, coupla thousand years? and tell me, during all the years that egypt controlled the gaza strip, and jordan controlled the west bank, nobody was screaming about the rights of "palestinians" to have their own state? how many "palestinians" did the jordanians kick out of jordan again? maybe the "palestinians" gave too many weapons and too much cash away to their friends in the ira during the 1970's, to help them blow up women and children in ireland at the time, i guess irish women shopping were a terrible threat to the "palestinians", were they? the "palestine" issue is a tool to keep the arab masses diverted away from confronting the mess their own countries are, and a tool for the european left to use against america, think on this, why would communists and socialists who believe in marx's dictum that "religion is the opium of the people" be supporting islam ?

you might also like to read some history on what happened to your hero hitler, i think you'll find we gave him a right lesson, we smashed the third reich into dust, the fact that you seem happy at what the nazi filth did speaks volumes about you, and also the best way to deal with you.

Do I know what propaganda is? Yes, it is posting the same silly statements over and over. You seem to have mastered it.

No one in the west is converting, other than a few losers in prison (e.g. Richard Reid). You can keep your religion of beheading, we don't want to join the cult...er, club.

Dina

The stages of embryology in the Quran, were by Muhammeds time an established fact.
The account of the different stages as described by the Qur'an, ar-Razi and al-Quff is identical to that taught by Galen, writing in around AD 150 in Pergamum (Bergama in modern Turkey). Galen taught that the embryo developed in four stages as detailed on this site
Yes, I am aware that Muhammed was illiterate, but since studying Islam I'm also aware that he was influenced greatly by things he heard whilst 'on the road' conducting his business as a caravan tradesman.
Poetry would often be recited and stories from the Bible as well as other religious literature through 'oral tradition'.
These stages of embryology were, by this time, as I said, an established fact, and more than likely pretty widespread by the above means -It was by no means a 'new revelation'.

Regards,
kc

I see Dina has some hate issues,I'm glad Dina confirmed that Muhammad heard voices and
believed Allah blessed him with a predisposed
afinity to pedophilia. The reference to Jesus
in the Quran helps debunk the myth that Islam is the true religion. The Quran says he was a prophet
and as a prophet he warned people of a false prophet that would come claiming to bring peace
and life to all,but the fruits of this prophet
will be war and death.
When a Muslim claims Muhammad is the prince of peace and a prophet,ask them to prove it,don't fall for the selective citing of Quranic verses
that the Imam's and Clerics spew in public.

Ask them if Muhammad ever killed anyone,and did he have sex with a child.

NO ISLAM - KNOW PEACE

Dina;
Just to respond to some more of your post....
(but I'd like to hear your response to my answer on the embryology claims first...)

" The Quran is the only book in history that has survived unchanged for 1500 years. The Quran we read contains the same words and letters that were spoken directly from the Prophet Muhammad"

The earliest transcript you now have of the Qur'an is in the British museum and dates to around 750 ad. apx 120 years after Muhammeds death.
There is no evident proof whatsoever that it hadn't been changed during that time.

"The Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Quran must be the literal word of God."
Oh, ok. What about these verses then?
Qur’an 36:38
“The sun keeps revolving in its orbit at the dispensation of the All-Knowing. And the Moon, We have measured for her mansions till she returns like dried date stalks. It is not permitted for the Sun to overtake the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day. Each (just) swims along, floating in (its own) orbit as a Sign as in a race. And we made similar vessels [chariots] for them to ride. But we could have drowned them if we pleased.”
Qur’an 18:83
“They ask you about Dhu’l-Qarnain [Alexander the Great]. Say, ‘I will cite something of his story. We gave him authority in the land and means of accomplishing his goals. So he followed a path until he reached the setting place of the sun. He saw that it set in black, muddy, hot water. Near it he found people.”
Bukhari:Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421.
“I walked hand in hand with the Prophet when the sun was about to set. We did not stop looking at it. The Prophet asked, ‘Do you know where the sun goes at sunset?’ I replied, ‘Allah and His Apostle know better.’ He said, ‘It travels until it falls down and prostrates Itself underneath the Throne. The angels who are in charge of the sun prostrate themselves, also. The sun asks permission to rise again. It is permitted. Then it will prostrate itself again but this prostration will not be accepted. The sun then says, “My Lord, where do You command me to rise, from where I set or from where I rose?” Allah will order the sun to return whence it has come and so the sun will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the statement of Allah in the Qur’an.’”
Bukhari:V4 B54 N482
“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘The Hell Fire complained to its Lord saying, “O my Lord! My different parts are eating each other up.” So, He allowed it to take two breaths, one in winter, the other in summer. This is the reason for the severe heat and bitter cold you find in weather.’”
Bukhari:V1 B10 N510
“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘If it is very hot, the severity of the heat is from the raging of the Hell Fire.’”
Bukhari:V4 B55 N546
“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Gabriel has just now told me of the answer. If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble him, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.’”

Dina please, I strongly urge you to reconsider your belief in Islam.
You are currently entrusting your very soul to the teachings of the man who taught the above as being the very words of God, which clearly they are not.
Entrust your soul instead, to the Lord Jesus Christ. His teachings are indeed perfect.
He is "The Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Him" (John 14:6)
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

Regards,
kc

William whittle:
Don’t you dare talk about Prophet Muhammad like that. “Ask them if Muhammad ever killed anyone, and did he have sex with a child.” Why don’t you ask? Don’t ask other people to do your dirty work for you. Our prophets are not like your prophets. What the Bible says:
“One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a women (the wife of Uriah) bathing. The woman was very beautiful…Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. ..Then she went back home. The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”…
In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In it her wrote, “Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so that he will be stuck down and die.”…
When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. (Samuel 11:2-26)
O gee, would you look at that. Your David prophet had sex with another women who was ALREADY married, and then had the woman’s husband KILLED. Before you start talking about our Prophet, who has never done such an act as hideous as that one, look at your own.

Kc (england)
I am sorry it takes me such time to respond to your comments, but for some odd reason this website does not allow any of my comments to be posted unless I change them to fit it the way they want it.

“They ask you about Dhu’l-Qarnain [Alexander the Great]. Say, ‘I will cite something of his story. We gave him authority in the land and means of accomplishing his goals. So he followed a path until he reached the setting place of the sun. He saw that it set in black, muddy, hot water. Near it he found people.”

The whole ayah is this:
"They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story." Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.One (such) way he followed, Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before)."
I don't know what this ayah is saying, but I will find out. i wont keep you hanging. About the second one:

“The sun keeps revolving in its orbit at the dispensation of the All-Knowing. And the Moon, We have measured for her mansions till she returns like dried date stalks. It is not permitted for the Sun to overtake the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day. Each (just) swims along, floating in (its own) orbit as a Sign as in a race. And we made similar vessels [chariots] for them to ride. But we could have drowned them if we pleased.”

The beginning part is correct, but then as you read on, (the last part), is incorrect. I do not know where you got your sources from, but they are not reliable. The correct ayah is this:
“And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing. And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk. It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).”
And those hadiths you have mentioned, in all my life, I have never heard such hadiths before. Again, I will ask someone I know who has a masters degree in Sharia and Islam. Kc, can you please tell me where you getting your information from. If it is a website or a book, will you please let me know?
"Dina please, I strongly urge you to reconsider your belief in Islam."
Kc, I can't. I have been born as a Muslim, and that is why I am very grateful of it. Because if I was not a born Muslim, then with all these false statements going on about Islam, and the way the Muslims are behaving, the way their actions contradict to Islams regulations, I would have never converted to Islam. The way a Muslim walks, talks, breathes, his attitude, behavior, clothing, everything about him should be all according to Islam. That way, people would want to know more about that religion. However, Muslims these days are not behaving the way a true believer is supposed to and that is why I must stop these false images of Islam, and try clarifying them. And, I will say this again, I am not here to convert anyone to Islam, I am just here to clarify invalid statements concerning Islam. The reason?:
The Messenger of Allah (saw) also said, "The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever." [Muslim].

Alya:

You call yourself a muslim yet, do you defend your religion ....no.. you criticize it and utterly despise it so therfore what is your point in calling yourself a muslim?

I'm not sure where you came up with that idea. Have you been hearing voices in your head, like the ones your "prophet" heard? We in the West have medication that can take care of that problem, you know.

At any rate, I am most assuredly NOT a Muslim.

Don't you know that you are listening to lie after lie after every single moment? Don't you know what lies the media brings to you?

Of course I do. That's why I don't depend on outlets like ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN or the NY Times for my news.

In fact there are 1.2 billion muslims in this world and the fact that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world

Hey...there's one of those lies you were talking about!

if Islam was really such a horrible religion that degrades women THEN WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP CONVERTING TO ISLAM?!?!?!?!!!

You know...I've been wondering that, myself.

But then, I think about all the other cults that have existed over the years, and I just chalk it up to a combination of weak-minded people and good salesmen.

Also, most of the happenings in the mideast are not caused by true believing muslims but by extremists.

Not according to the foremost Islamic scholars. According to most of them, the people who are blowing up schoolkids and beheading innocent people ARE the "true believing Muslims."

Since islam in your terms is such a bad religion then isn't logical that people won't convert to islam.

The only people voluntarily converting to Islam in the West are prison inmates and assorted weak-minded fools who have been sold a bill of goods by CAIR and the other Islam-apologist groups.

I think we both know what drives "conversions" in the rest of the world: Typically, the threat of a rather nasty death.

It's amazing how persuasive a gasoline-filled tire around the neck can be...

Everything I have been reading here is quite interesting, and definitely improves my perspective greatly!

There are 2 main arguments here.

1. The 9/11 and other terrorist attacks are unjust, horrible, and against the beliefs of all who believe in God, Allah and the sanctity of humanity.

2. The people who perpetrated the aforementioned attacks are not true Muslims, therefore Islam should not be blamed for these evildoers actions.

So, do we not all agree that people, of any creed (set of beliefs), who destroy innocent human beings are evil and unjust? If we believe they are unjust, let us join together to stop it.

Is it not more important to kill, and therefore prevent, those who would kill innocents than to simply claim they are not "one of ours" and they "do not represent us"?

Shouldn't true Muslims seek to prevent their good name from being spoiled by these few evil people? As a non-Muslim, I would like to see the killing in the name of Islam stop, but since I am not a Muslim, noone claiming to be a Muslim, and intending to hurt people like me, will give my words any value. It appears that even true Muslims are being killed or otherwise persecuted by those who claim Islam when they speak out against the horrid actions they perform.

I have also read here that the so-called Muslim Nations are not truly what they claim to be. If this is so, why are the true Muslims so quiet, not responding to these states, and their despotic leaders with outrage and (from what I gather) a desire to destroy them, since claiming to be Muslim and acting unlike one is worse than never having claimed to accept Islam in the first place?

Is not the Saddam Hussein regime more despicable than Israel, because they claimed to be Islamic and then killed innocent Muslims? At least Israel has the ignorance of Islam's beauty on their side, according to some of the Koranic quotes I have seen here.

I'd like to see the discussion become fruitful, and would prefer to see some different arguments arise instead of the two main ones I have pointed out.

LOBO

Right on the mark.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Dina,

You may be aware of the current teachings of Islam, but when it comes to the bible and biblical facts you don't know what you are talking about.

"O gee would you look at that? Your David prophet had sex with another women (sic.) who was ALREADY married, and then had the woman's husband KILLED."

Actually, that is only half true. Since you don't know anything about the customs of that time, I can see how you would get that wrong though. Before any Israelite went into battle, he gave his wife a writ of divorce (get) in order that should he die in battle and his body never be found, his wife could remarry. This is what occurred in this section. Batsheva was technically no married at that moment to Uriah, so David's deed wasn't very good, but he didn't have sex with a married woman.

Another thing you should be aware of about this incident is that it was in NO way was it sanctioned by G-d. In fact, David paid a HEAVY price for this behavior. First, he lost their infant son days after his birth. Then, as part of the fallout from this, one of his other son's raped a sister and a second son rebelled against him - tearing away the kingdom from him for a year or so. That son, Avshalom, ended up being killed as a result. Once David heard about the death of Avshalom, he fell to the ground and wept bitter tears, "Oh Avshalom, Avshalom, my son, my son." This was not something David ever wanted and it was his punishment. David paid an extremely heavy price for this sin. Please know the whole story before you go into equating the two - Mohammed's sin and David's - there is no comparison between the two. David's sin was punished. Mohammed's sin was lauded and used as an example of how Muslim men should act. They are not the same thing - NOT AT ALL.

As to your claims about the Bible having many changes, you are incorrect on that score yet again. Please do not confuse the difference between translations and the original languages. While it may be true that the translations change over the years, (as language changes in all cultures over time) the original Hebrew, for the Jewish Bible, and the original Koine Greek, for the Christian Bible remain the same. In fact, the earliest documents we have found for each text - the Masoretic text of 1000 c.e. and MS's found in the place of Qumran - have shown extremely few differences. Those differences found are extremely slight, such as one letter having been added to a word, i.e. a helping letter in a vowel - stuff like that. Any changes DO NOT affect the meaning of the passage itself. Not to mention that they have found portions of texts (fragments) dating back much earlier and those texts also show no appreciable changes whatsoever. Be careful addressing these types of changes as if they are somehow different versions, such an idea is absolutely untennable and cannot be supported by scholarship.

I do not get how someone could say this about Islam and Prophet Mohamed. Before saying this you should at least go research and read the quran and you will find that Allah tells us to maintain peace and not harm any innocents. Whta happened in Iraq was wrong and haram and Islam does not allow it but people do wrong things under the name of islam. Muslims and Islam as a religion can not be blamed for what happened.

So let us do something about it - what can be done?

Also, no true Muslim can complain that the USA attacked a Muslim country, based on these past arguments. The USA liberated a country run by non-Muslims, worse - those who claimed to be, but did not act like Muslims! Shall we not agree that it is good to stop non-Muslim dictatorships from oppressing their good, holy Muslim subjects?

Lobo,
Alya made a mistake, she thought u were a muslim, which indeed would have been a sad case.

JGK:
Shouldn't true Muslims seek to prevent their good name from being spoiled by these few evil people? As a non-Muslim, I would like to see the killing in the name of Islam stop, but since I am not a Muslim, noone claiming to be a Muslim, and intending to hurt people like me, will give my words any value. It appears that even true Muslims are being killed or otherwise persecuted by those who claim Islam when they speak out against the horrid actions they perform.

Exactly. At least someone has a bit of common sense in them.

“I have also read here that the so-called Muslim Nations are not truly what they claim to be. If this is so, why are the true Muslims so quiet, not responding to these states, and their despotic leaders with outrage and (from what I gather) a desire to destroy them, since claiming to be Muslim and acting unlike one is worse than never having claimed to accept Islam in the first place?”
Actually, JGK, we are trying a lot, and in addition, our voices will not be heard. Look at it this way, if you were some king of a ‘Muslim country,” and someone comes up to you and tells you that you are running your country completely against the Sharia and the rules of Islam, would you ever admit it? Of course not, you are the king of some country, and some low-class guy is coming up to you, and telling you the way to run your country. You would be to proud and arrogant to give in, whether you are Muslim or Non-Muslim. And, really, I am sick of this. I hope to god, that one-day, all Muslims will realize that they need to strengthen their faith in god, and start to obey the rules and regulations of Islam the way a true Muslim should.

Paula
“You may be aware of the current teachings of Islam, but when it comes to the bible and biblical facts you don't know what you are talking about.”
Ok, paula, so you expect me to listen to you when you talk about the Bible, when you yourself refuse to heed one word I am saying about Islam?

“Before any Israelite went into battle, he gave his wife a writ of divorce (get) in order that should he die in battle and his body never be found, his wife could remarry. This is what occurred in this section.”
Her husband went into battle AFTER his wife slept with David, so what you said does not apply to the Bibles sayings.
“Another thing you should be aware of about this incident is that it was in NO way was it sanctioned by G-d.”
So what Prophet Muhammad (S) is accused of doing was?

“Please know the whole story before you go into equating the two - Mohammed's sin and David's - there is no comparison between the two. Mohammed's sin was lauded and used as an example of how Muslim men should act.
”
The same goes for you Paula. If you want me to listen to what you are saying about your Bible and how it is being misinterpreted, then I think you should do the same. “So please know the whole story, the whole and complete truth before you go and judge Islam.”

“As to your claims about the Bible having many changes, you are incorrect on that score yet again.”
Well, I surely don’t know who to believe. Because this is not the first time I have posted something from the Bible, and some certain individual defended it by saying that the Bible has been written along time ago, and now it is changed. And yes, there are many changes. For instance, one of your Bibles say that Prophet Jesus was miracualously conceived from the Holy Spirit, many other verses say that Prophet Jesus is the son of Joseph and that he descended from Prophet David the descendent of Perez, who was born on incest committed by Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar. Seems to me as if you guys can’t decide the genealogy of Jesus.

JGK
"Also, no true Muslim can complain that the USA attacked a Muslim country, based on these past arguments. The USA liberated a country run by non-Muslims, worse - those who claimed to be, but did not act like Muslims! Shall we not agree that it is good to stop non-Muslim dictatorships from oppressing their good, holy Muslim subjects?"
I am afraid you have been listening to the media. They were under the pretense of doing this liberating process, however, why now? Iraq has been unter the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein for many many years. Why all of a sudden has the US decided to go and liberate the Iraqi people? "Bush claims invading Iraq made America safer. However because of Iraq, much of the world now regards America itself as a menacing, unstable threat."
Alot of things can be done, JGK, for instance, learning more about Islam and its teaching before judging it based on a group of nominal followers, and spreading false statements regarding Islam.

"Seems to me as if you guys can’t decide the genealogy of Jesus. "
The simple explanation, to avoid nitpicking the specific text of the Bible is this:

Jesus directly came from God, into the womb of the virgin, Mary (according to proper analysis of the basic Bible text available). Joseph's genealogy does not enter into it, as his contribution was simply to raise, not to create Jesus. That is the belief of Christians that I feel none would outright disagree with.

When you refer to "one of your Bibles" you should remember that we, too believe in only 1 Bible, written through the grace of God. your quote actually refers to one of the translations of the Word of God. The translations may differ, but the actual Bible is what it is, unique, unalterable, etc.

Christians just allow for individuals to define their personal relationship with God in their own way. For this reason, there are many different types/sects of Christianity. Those who didn't believe in every tenet of Catholicism became Protestant, and from there split many different variations on that theme, each intending to bring their followers to be closer to God. Christians also allow Muslims to worship the same "One, true God" in their own way, because we feel that as long as you have a relationship with God, it is He who will judge you any way he likes. Surely God has the right to decide what laws are valid whenever he wants, and is righteous in all he does. We all, Christians and Muslims, believe that. Muslims treat the Word of God (Quran) as absolute and final, to be followed without question. Christians treat the Word of God as a guideline for living life, and it is up to us to preserve our relationship with God by acting and thinking as we believe He would see fit. If, at the day of judgement, God chooses to call our actions and thoughts wrongful, may He treat us with mercy. If he decides that our deeds and thoughts are worthy of the gift of enternal life, then may He be praised all the more for such a bountiful reward.

"Alot of things can be done, JGK, for instance, learning more about Islam and its teaching before judging it based on a group of nominal followers, and spreading false statements regarding Islam"

Dina, let's get past that - I suggest that you begin to trust that most non-Muslims do not believe such outrageous generalizations. Once you can trust someone like me, I hope you will then join with such people to unite against the destruction of Islam, perpetrated by these evil insiders. These leaders about whom we speak may not be true Muslims, but they are walking around everyday being praised and exalted by everyday people, and there is nothing being doen to remove them.

Is there no militant Islamic group willing to go and suicide bomb such evil leaders? I don't suggest that it happen, but aren't there people who feel so strongly that they are willing to die like these evil non-Muslims who kill innocents?

We gotta stop them, for it is those evil people who are preventing people like you and me from being the brothers and sisters we deserve to be - as God, I'm sure wants us to be!

Sorry, one last point.

The problem is not that perhaps many non-Muslims are prone to believing that Islam is a violent religion. The problem is that those who claim to be Muslims are giving us non-Muslims legitimate reasons for thinking it!

We know that not all Muslims are terrorists - but we have only seen in recent history that all terrorists are claiming to be Muslims!

Let's do something to stop it!

"Her husband went into battle AFTER his wife slept with David, so what you said does not apply to the Bibles (sic.) sayings."

Unfortunately I am at work, so I cannot respond to much of what you have said at this moment. However, I must again tell you that you are incorrect about this point. Actually, if you check the text and read it carefully, you will see that Uriah was called from the battle by David through one of his generals. So, yes, the writ of divorce happened BEFORE Uriah left for their campaign. Then David brought him to the palace to ask him for details about what was taking place in the battlefield and got him drunk. (He was secretly hoping that Uriah would go home and sleep with Batsheva and then she could say that the baby, with which she was pregnant was Uriah's and not his.) That night he sent him home and told him to sleep with his wife, but Uriah was too righteous to do that. Uriah didn't think it was fair to go home and enjoy his wife when his comrades were out risking their lives. Instead, Uriah slept on David's doorstep.

So, yes, she was a divorced woman at the time that David had his affair with her.

I would like to say something, let me first say that I do not hate Muslims, but I do not appreciate it when I'm told I need to be educated on Islam in order to fully understand the religion. I'm not going to sit here and attack it, mainly because it's not worth fighting with people on the internet..I must agree with what JGK has said, those that do claim to be followers of Allah and then do something evil does put a great concern into the rest of us that are watching. Now I've read in different threads this evening that the 9/11 terrorists and others cannot call themselves Muslims and followers of Islam because violence is not tolerated (I'm paraphasing things I've read) and Allah would never want that. It's not convert and die as they would have us believe, am I correct to a point? Okay, but please understand this, even though you say all of his, most of us will not listen for the simple reason, we have seen many acts of violence in the name of Allah, we have heard of abuse of women by their husbands especially in Saudi Arabi under the Sharia, and to have someone sit there and defend their beliefs so earnestly is honorable with one thing, if you know that no matter what you say it is going onto deaf ears, why waste your time? I've also read somewhere on here that we are being called to Islam and our grandchildren will be Muslim, first off, our grandchildren will not be Muslim, they will be whatever we are, myself Christian as my daugther is, and if you are not trying to convert us then why sit there and say you're trying to call to us Islam? I wish I could remember who said this and on what thread but I'm sorry I can't. I know Muslims want to be respected but some of you need to respect others first before you can ask for respect. Some of the posts are just down right nasty as hell and it does not show peace! Everyone is supposed to behave as their God wants them to and some are not, Muslim, non Muslim it doesn't matter. Of course not everyone believes in God and their posts reflect that but those that do, you need to speak with pride and intelligence and respect for yourself, others and your faith. When you don't, it proves the point that you are not worth anyone's time and I'M NOT NAMING ANY NAMES NOR POINTING SPECIFIC FINGERS AT ANYONE as I'm not here to cause problems and start yet another fight in this thread. Also, a note about 9/11 as I see that was a very hot topic, it cannot be forgotten especially for those who lived it. It wasn't right but any unnecessary killing isn't right, in times of war though it's sad to say that it will and does happen. Even though it cannot be proven 100% that the hijackers were in fact Islamic that is what we are led to believe. I dont think anything can change that view. We are a nation filled with great hatered for the Middle East for what is being taught about the West. There are those countries that just hate us no matter what and I think it's more because of the freedoms we posses and they do not. Parents are teaching their children to hate us, destroy us and we are supposed to sit back and allow this to continue? We must go and fight for our country. We went in and took out Saddam, keep in mind he and his regime did many harsh, cruel things to the Iraqi people and without us coming in, he would still be in power to this day as he had his entire country scared shitless of him. After we do this, we then are photographed abusing Iraqi detanees, prisoners, yeah, that was a bright idea. I don't agree with this treatment, however, two wrongs do not make a right. Killing Nick Berg has not fixed the problem, having national media coverage of these acts is having an effect. When are terrorists going to learn, we don't listen to threats? No, we don't want any person killed by our enemies but we also aren't going to bow our heads to these people, get on our knees and give them whatever the hell they want! If we did, we would not be the country we are today, faults and all. So in saying all of this, either people are going to respect one another or you will die alone and miserable because the more you attack and disrespect it just proves how miserable a person you really are. No trying to convert those who do not wish to be converted. And if you're on this site and you know this site is against Islam, you need to keep in mind, no matter what you say, no one will listen. I'm not trying to be rude, just upfront.

DINA,
You might enjoy "Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine,written in 1794
No one ever did a more brilliant expose of the lunacy that is found in the bible scriptures.

Revel in that thought, but shudder at what any independent un-wired mind examining the "koran"
would say. Religions that execute heretics are
to be dammed by all. Their wired children are virtually dead already. Our past and future says so.

Very well said Annie. I applaud your comments.

Thank you Paula! And please no, I am by no means naive. I know what's going on and the wars we are in and will be in, I would just like to be a bit more sophistacated in my posts if I can be.

To me it doesn't pay to throw insult to insult no one will listen anyway, we'll just fly right past it. You will be more intelligent and better than those who do not have enough of a vocabulary to not stoop to their levels.

Are there any Muslims out there that are willing to make a statement about what should be done to prevent false Muslims from hurting innocent Muslims and non Muslims?

Annie, Did I do that? I was trying to be respectful to the people who have responded here. If I did what you said, please let me know where because I didn't want to do that - at all. Actually, if you can point out where I did that I would consider it to be helpful and a real service. Thanks. :-D

Paula,
No I believe your postings were fine, I'm sorry I didn't mean on this particular thread, I meant more overall. As I said, I don't want to point fingers at anyone in particular as I'm not babysitter and not better than anyone else. Trust me, if anyone pushes, I will get very nasty, I'm Italian and have a very bad temper and attitude but I try to keep it in check, I have a young daughter to raise and she doesn't need to grow up with Mommy cursing and going off the deep end like crazy! Your postings were direct, to the point regarding the bible and I think you handled yourself well.

C G W - You wrote:

Aleeahu:

I never said I was a Christian. :) Posted by CGW May 18, 2004 01:56 PM

Dina:

Statistically, Christianity is actually the fastest growing religion worldwide, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS have converted since 9/11. Posted by CGW at May 17, 2004 06:07 PM

To play fair, if you are going to label adversaries then accept a commensurate label of your choice. I have admired your posts here, and as Paula clearly stated. I can't thank you enough for expressing my sentiments exactly to the "Yawns" who clearly have "Labeled" themselves. Regarding the Christian title; Why are you seemingly evasive? Implications become our Labels.

All religious issues stem from the same point or origin, TRIBAL LAW. Rules and Rituals originally intended to identify ones level of obedience to a group.

An example to the Sucked up Fundamentalist:

"Thou shalt not lie" does not convey any essential spirit of camaraderie. Thus evil wins with such a scripture, for half of the truth is easilly worse than a lie.

What intelligent engineering or enlightenment evolves from such inadequacy is an Oath of Candor: I pledge to be truthful, to participate constructively without reservation or deduction.

This is the catalyst to the essential camaraderie.
This is vital because each adversary in these forums is seeing the other side as liars or worse. So how does anyone expect peace to ever come from each others Scriptures, Satanic by default. The Buddhists apparently understood differentials between lying and false candor 2000 years ago. It is revealed in their manners to this day. One does not have to be anything to have a Buddhist attitude. Meditation is the fountainhead of intuition and understanding.

I do have severe sorrows about my countrymen at large. We love our freedom of speech, but we speak in contradictions. Similarly we love the right of assembly, but we trash the arena / theatre with our litter in return. Rights deserve respect.

You certainly have my vote for being among the finest of American role models... Are you Christian only if it suits the occaision? If you are anything else, please let me know where I can sign up. I just can not find any better ID than a Liberally Enterprising Conservative American of Semitic/Polish Ancestry. A "Wiccan" sounds the least boastful.

Our implications become our labels. It is prudent to be private, however...Without genuine candor we are all lost.

Kindest regards, Aleeahu

Ok, going over the postings I was unable to do when I was at work:

Dina said: "How am I supposed to answer that? I’m not that person now am I? It is totally up to that person. The muslim has done his or her duty, preaching Islam to them, and if they want or do not want to become Muslim is totally up to them. Because, one day, when they do realize the truth, they can’t deny that we have not told them.

Muslims are not forcing it to you, you may think so, or is may be true, but that is not the Dawah is to be made."

Yes, the Muslim has done their duty at that time. However, it all starts this way - innocent and "you can live your way, but let me tell you about Islam" but it doesn't end that way. It ends where the Muslims have enough of a majority in the nation and then they start screaming for the Kaliphate and Sharia law to be implemented. Then, when they don't get their way, the machetes and guns come out and they start killing people who don't agree with them. This has happened all over the world throughout history. It is happening today in the Sudan and in Nigeria. Don't try and deny it.

"I don’t know if you have read the Quran or not, but go to some mosque, or an Islamic shop where they sell the Quran and read it. The QURAN is completely different from your Bible."

Yes, I did read the Qu'ran when I was in my twenties and the thing that hit me as hard as a hammer was the beginning of each sura (I think that's what they are called.) where it states, "In the name of Allah, the merciful, the compassionate" ... etc, etc. and then Mohammed goes on to say horrible, horrible things that do not include an ounce of the mercy and compassion that he said Allah was all about. I kept thinking to myself, "Hey, where's all the mercy? Where's the compassion? There wasn't a drop to be seen, except for in the title of each one of his sayings.

"Prophet Muhammad (S) is the most calm and temper-controlled man. You make him sound like this overgrown baby, and that is not right."

Hey Dina, I call them as I see them. I don't see calmness and temperence. What I read was angry ranting about the unbelievers in Mecca. That didn't seem to calm to me.

"Show me proof, and it should be straight from the Quran or Hadith"

First off, I have the feeling that even if I showed you verse by verse, I would be wasting my time. You seem to have an agenda of your own for doing this "let me tell you what Islam is all about" and I am not about to enter your playground.

Secondly, I don't believe that the Qu'ran is any more holy - and I use that word very loosely - than any other cultish book.

(my comment) "Another thing you should be aware of about this incident is that it was in NO way was it sanctioned by G-d."
So what Prophet Muhammad (S) is accused of doing was?

You tell me. Was he? I always got the impression that Muslims thought everything Mohammed did was good, no matter what happened. Oh, that's right, Allah later said it was OK. Sorry, my mistake.

The truth of the matter is that the whole showing verses from the Qu'ran isn't the question to be asking. The question to ask is: "Was Mohammed a prophet of G-d?" Once you answer that question, the rest follows from natural logic. Muslims say "Yes, he was absolutely a prophet." Then they point to the Qu'ran and say it was a "miracle," I mean after all how could an illiterate man have written it? This is the exact same argument made by another group who has a prophet which claims the same thing. (Out of respect for that group I am not going to name names.) The non-Muslim says, "No, he was absolutely not a prophet." The Qu'ran, although interesting as a book to read, is nothing more than one man's utterances and has no application to anything today.

Islam stands, or falls, on the question of, "Is Mohammed a prophet of G-d?" Once this question is answered, nothing need more be said.

Why do you all insist on avoiding making a commitment to solving the real problem instead of continuing petty disputes?
-----------
Are there any Muslims out there that are willing to make a statement about what should be done to prevent false Muslims from hurting innocent Muslims and non Muslims?
Will someone stand up and print or say out loud what you would like to see done to the people who do all these terrible things in the name of Allah?

Dina;
"And those hadiths you have mentioned, in all my life, I have never heard such hadiths before. Again, I will ask someone I know who has a masters degree in Sharia and Islam. Kc, can you please tell me where you getting your information from."

Yes Dina, I will be pleased to. Bukhari is one of the collections of Sahih or "sound" Hadith. That is why I try and quote those as I know Muslims can't refute them.
I get them from an Islamic site here.
My personal copy of the Qur'an is 'The Noble Qur'an' version. I however reference 3 other English translations here. (by the way, when you comment that we have lots of different versions of the Bible, It is only the same as the Qur'an. It is different translations that we have just like you do (above).There is only one version in the original Hebrew, but when you come to translate it to another different language, may different translators strive to get their version as near to the original as possible. That is why we have different tranlations, just like your Qur'an.)

Anyway Dina, now you can research the Hadith here is the reference to Muhammed marrying a six year old and sleeping with her when she was 9, that a few people have mentioned;

Hadith by Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:

"Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumated that marriage when she was nine years old"

Dina, you said you cant leave Islam. I'd like to challenge you on that one.
Research the verses I quoted. when you find I've quoted accurately, please, surely you must at least reconsider your allegiance to Muhammeds claims. He said stuff that blatently wasn't true.
How can you then trust him as a prophet? How can you trust the rest of his message?
Read
this guys testimony. He was a former proffessor in Islamic history at Al-Hazar in Egypt. He saw the light Dina, and left Islam under the threat of his life.

Jesus is the only way to salvation.
I urge you again Dina, leave the darkness of Islam and embrace the light of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

My E-mail is here if you want to talk further.
Regards,
kc.

KC,
I enjoy reading your posts very much! In the last one you mentioned a guy and his testimony. By any chance, do you have the actual url to that as I'd like to save it and when I press on the word it just brings up the text and there is no url to it. Also, where you speak about the Qu'ran and the two different sites you go to, I'd love it if you could post the acutal url to those as well. If it's too much trouble I understand. I want to be able to save all the url addresses to use at a later date for study. Thanks ever so much!

Annie;
The guys testimony is hosted on "the Arabic Bible" website, (just click on "home" on the link I posted) To my Knowledge he doesn't have his own site. I got to know about him when I saw him being interviewed on tv once about a year or so ago. He does however have 2 books out which I under stand you can get on Amazon: "Islam and the Jews" & "Islam and Terrorism"
For the URL for the other two sites, just do the same, go on the link I gave, scroll down and click "Islamic Home Server" It'll take you to their home page.
Regards,
kc

KC,
Got it, great, many thanks to you!

Nobody is willing to stand up against the fasiq (Muslim traitors), and that troubles me. It appears this may be why no progress is being made.

Why won't any Muslims stand up for their religion and prevent its name from being soild by these people who kill innocents in the name of Allah?

The bottom line is this, Muslims want to be the domiant religion.

"Muslim institutions, schools and economic power should be strengthened in America. Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ...... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

This was taken as a direct quote from Omar Ahmad who is the Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. If this doesn't tell you that we need to raise against and not allow this man to have his way in our world, I don't know what will. So tell me, this is peace? Oh I know, it's just one person's opinion right? I'm sorry but any Muslim who sits there and tells me they would not want to see their religion as the only religion followed in the United States is full of crap! I've read here so many times that the duty of any Muslim is to educate those on Islam and there is at least one person on here who has even stated they are calling us to Islam. Okay, so that means you're not trying to convert us? People, please wake up before you are ambushed with "Convert or Die". These people know exactly what they are doing and how to behave in order to get their own way, they say the right things and over and over again proclaim the beauty and peace of Islam. You must be smarter than them or join them and then try to leave Islam. Many have seen the light and have left, several are personal friends of mine. Do more research. You'll soon be disgusted along with the rest of.

annie, you quote, "If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam."
dont christians also have to preach? what are all those jehovah witnesses, going door-to-door and inviting people to join their religion, handing out pamphlets? isnt it a religios obligation to spread your religion to others? well, muslims also have to spread their religion, and i would love to see more Muslims populating the earth, along with the other 1.2 billion.
"I'm sorry but any Muslim who sits there and tells me they would not want to see their religion as the only religion followed in the United States is full of crap! I've read here so many times that the duty of any Muslim is to educate those on Islam and there is at least one person on here who has even stated they are calling us to Islam. Okay, so that means you're not trying to convert us?"
Who said that no Muslim wants to see their religion as the only religion followed? if you are Christian, wouldnt you want all of America to be alongside you in faith? wouldnt you appreicate it if there were many others that understood your religious obligations? well, thats how majority of the muslims feel. im sure that you would appreciate people in your religion in numbers, and we are human too, and we feel the same. i would love to convert at least one person on this site, but now, since no one seems to change their outlook, i must settle with only clarifying what Islam is actually about. it is my duty as a muslim, when i see this being said about islam, to defend it, because im sure that you would do the same regarding your religions.
"Many have seen the light and have left, several are personal friends of mine." hate to break it to you, but many, many, many more have seen the light and converted INTO islam, not out of it. im sure you know that even post-9/11, Islam is the fastest-growing religion. Islam is growing about 2.9% per year. This is faster than the total world population which increases about 2.3% annually. It is thus attracting a progressively larger percentage of the world's population. this is because people actually have gone out and read up on islam, gotten their information from reliable sources, seen the true religion, and thus became muslims. oh and by the way, several are personal friends of mine.

annie, whats so wrong about Muslims trying to preach islam to others? whats wrong about trying to make you convert? because, as i see, KC has no problem doing that. i quote:
Jesus is the only way to salvation.
I urge you again Dina, leave the darkness of Islam and embrace the light of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.Posted by kc (england) at May 20, 2004 06:45 AM
and JGK, the only way for false muslims to stop tainting the name of islam with their actions is this: if they know that what they are doing does not competely agree with the tenets of islam, they should a) not do it, or b) not do it in the name of Islam, Allah, etc. if there is going to be a leader who is not going to be fair, just, and kind to all his subjects, then he should not say that he is a muslim, because Islam orders all leaders to be just with their people. with a corrupt, a muslim should be fair yet just. as the quran states, chapter 5, verse 8: "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allâh and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is Well­ Acquainted with what you do." another hadith states: "'By Allah you have to enjoin good (Maroof) and forbid evil (Munkar), and hold against the hand of the unjust ruler (Zalim)". Allah (SWT) commanded the Muslims to enjoin Maroof and deny Munkar, and made it a duty upon them to do so. and thus, muslims write on this site, to defend their religion, enjoin good and forbid evil.

kc,
jsut for your information the author of those two books doesnt even exist, it was a whole playwright by the jews just to ruin the whole Muslim reputation, because me my self and some other students have contact the college that that so called " Mohammed Jibreel" aka. now "Mark A. Gabriel " doesnt even exist and he was never a professor in The University of AlAzhar and he was never there and he wasnt even living in Egypt, so where is he supoosed to come from and that photo that was taken and is on the book, is a picture of a jewish man who was paid money to be posted on the front cover page of the book. The jews are just becoming to jealous of the muslims and how Islam is affecting everyone except for those absent minded and ignorant people. Yes the two books are selling for a higher price than what they should be seeled for, and the publishing company of the two books is in a case with the president of the University of Alazhar. So tell me isnt this againts their religion or is it NOT?

Kc,
Leave the darkness of islam and embrace the light of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ???
Islam is not a cult and it is not darkness, nor does it encourage terrrorism, rather it forbids it.Islam is all about piece,love,and equality!!!

Urban
You disrespectful piece of garbage!! i hope you rot in hell for sayin what you said..Allah is not saiten..Your saiten....when you die i hope god cuts your tongue off!!!i would never ever disrespect the person you worship so dont dsirespect my god !!!

Urban
You disrespectful piece of garbage!! i hope you rot in hell for sayin what you said..Allah is not saiten..Your saiten....when you die i hope god cuts your tongue off!!!i would never ever disrespect the person you worship so dont you eve even dare disrespect my god !!!

Urban
You disrespectful piece of garbage!! i hope you rot in hell for sayin what you said..Allah is not saiten..Your saiten....when you die i hope god cuts your tongue off!!!i would never ever disrespect the person you worship so dont you eve even dare disrespect my god !!!

Annie:
"I've read here so many times that the duty of any Muslim is to educate those on Islam and there is at least one person on here who has even stated they are calling us to Islam. Okay, so that means you're not trying to convert us?"
There is a difference between protecing your religion from false ideas, and preaching it to others. You would not know what I have been taught about Islam, especially since I am a Muslim. And wrong, whether you choose to convert or not to is totally up to you. God will deal with you. In Islam, our only duty is to preach and make Dawah to others. YOU must convert out of your own will, no one can force you to do so. And death does not come anywhere near this. You convert to Islam, good for you. If you dont, thats your problem not mine.And you seem to be acting as if there is something totally wrong against preaching. As I recall, your religion encourages your people to do so, so if you have a problem with it, then surely you have a problem with what your religion teaches you to do so. So please, contemplate over your own adoration before making statements about other religions.

Where did you come from Merv. Anybody can desecrate allah if they want to because he is satan. Anbody that preachs death and murder is surely satan.

Merv:
"Islam is not a cult and it is not darkness, nor does it encourage terrrorism, rather it forbids it.Islam is all about piece,love,and equality!!!"

Yeah right. Prove it. We have already proved that it is NOT!
P.S.-What do you mean "islam is all about PIECE.."

NIsren:
"The jews are just becoming to jealous of the muslims"

What do you mean by this? The muslims are the jealous ones. What do the jews have to be jealous of? They have the better nation, laws, jobs, and God!

Dina and Aliyah;
I choose not to preach simply because I know no one is interestd in what Jesus had to say, see the difference? What KC does is her business, do not put me into the same category as I don't choose to do that. You know I see that neither of you had comments regarding comments made by Omar Ahmad who is the Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. He is Islam, Muslim. Also pointing out that if we don't convert that's our problem and we will have to deal with God? Okay thank you for proving my point! Not all Christians choose to preach, we don't see it as our Duty regardless of what people say about it. See that's the difference between our religions, we don't feel the need to constantly repeat ourselves left and right to someone who doesn't want to be saved. And billions upon billions have converted to Islam since 9/11? What is this McDonalds? If people did, it's more out of fear, the hijackers were Islamic and all you heard for weeks afterwards was their sick beliefs and what they were going to get into paradise and have virgins for doing this in the name of Allah. Christianity what you see is what you get, there's no hidden messages. We don't say if you convert great, if not it's not my problem it's yours and God will deal with. Hello, but that is a wonderful example of what everyone is saying on these threads. You may not be saying convert or die but you know what, by sitting there saying it's your problem not mine and God will deal with you, what kind of message does that send to people? And no I do not wish Christianity to take over the world and be the dominant religion. I personally don't really care what others believe except when it's proven time and time again that the belief of choice is nothing but violent. And go ask Omar Ahmad who is the Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. Are you going to sit there and tell me he isn't Muslim and reads the Qu'ran? Don't even wast your breath telling me that. Once I read what he had to say and no one had disputed, he totally proved to me and the rest of the posters here that Islam wants total domination. He is a major figure and making such an outlandish statement as he made leads me to believe that he stands for the MAJORITY of Muslims. Now let's not go and misquote me or read something in my post that is not there, I do know of some Muslims that do want nothing more than peace they have even told me about hidden meanings in their faith, I also know of several Muslims that have converted to Christianity. Sorry but billions upon billions converting to Islam since 9/11 I find hard to believe. I wouldn't say billions, I do know there have been people who converted but it's not billions, I don't know where you got your numbers but you need to go back and check them unless of course you're getting them from an Islamic website that don't even bother. Personally I don't really care what the numbers are of conversion from what to what. In the end, the decisions one makes they will see the error of their ways. There are Muslims who post here and they even confirm they left once their eyes were opened to the truth. What you do with your lives are your business of course but I can only pray and hope that being on these threads as often as you both are will open your eyes. To say that one cannot leave Islam is a frightening quote! That upon anything else would me question the faith I follow so earnestly.

Mohmmed (sboh) was a child molesting, rapist, thief, pillaging murderer, not to mention psychopathic. Allah is a black rock. Islamists have converted Islam into a cult.

I asked this question earlier in a different thread, and no one could come up with a legitimate answer.....Since some the Islamic elite has joined us, I'll ask it again.....

What does Islam do, or what has Islam done to benefit the communities in which they've moved into? What contribution have Muslims made that could make them an asset to anyone else but other Muslims?

Food drives? Clothes drives? Fund raisers of any kind? Neighborhood clean ups? Anything?

Please enlighten us because from what I've seen, Muslims do nothing to better any community or society in which they dwell.

D.C.,
Well said!

Urban
You disrespectful piece of garbage!! i hope you rot in hell for sayin what you said..Allah is not saiten..Your saiten....when you die i hope god cuts your tongue off!!!i would never ever disrespect the person you worship so dont you eve even dare disrespect my god !!!

Posted by: Merv at May 20, 2004 06:46 PM

There goes that "religion of peace, love and equality" again........LMAO

OK, time to cut the bull:

Both the New Testament of the Bible and the Qur'an were completed long after the death of their respective principle subjects, their principal subjects being Jesus in the New Testament and Mohammed in the Qur'an.

Neither man wrote his own testimonies, they were instead relayed via oral histories over several iterations before first being written down, and the "correct" account did not become formalized until between 150-300 years after these men were dead, respectively. The most popular versions of these documents have been formalized since, and neither has changed significantly in the last 700 years. This is fact.

Hee is another fact: blindly basing a 2004 geo-political world view on documents written by dead cultures the better part of a millienia (or two) ago is asinine.

Feeling that your religion is the only "true" religion out of the thousands in Earth's 4.6 billion year history, is insane.

Both sides should quit citing quotes the other side doesn't beleive in, and try to have a rational discussion based upon facts.

God/Allah gave you gray matter for a reason.

Try using it.

NIsren,
An unbelievable, yet classic Muslim response.
I take it you are also of the persuasion that the 9/11 hijackers were all Jewish or Mossad agents?

Bob Owens;
If someone wants to debate with me regarding religious matters than I will do.
You prefer to debate political issues, thats fine, I don't tell you to stop.

Dina and all the other Muslims on this thread;
Jesus did indeed tell his followers to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel" (mark 16:15)
But he also told us, when preaching the gospel;
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet" Mat. 10:14

With that command in mind I have decided to cease from posting on this particular thread.
I have answered all your questions so feel it's time to move on.

Thank you for all your dialogue,
Regards,
kc

God/Allah gave you gray matter for a reason.

Try using it.

Posted by: Bob Owens at May 21, 2004 12:56 AM

Bob.....debating would be a pleasant change. However, there will be no debate with followers of Islam. They only know, and are only willing to know one side, theirs.

KC,
I for one, hate to see you go from this thread! but AMEN to all that you said! I'm looking forward to seeing you on other threads.

"Are you going to sit there and tell me he isn't Muslim and reads the Qu'ran? Don't even wast (sic.)your breath telling me that."
do me a favor- tell me who said that he isnt a muslim? and you say that i didnt respond to what the man said? read my post, and youll see that majority of it was dedicated to that statement itself. any person from any religion would definately like to see many people convert into it, wouldnt they? but the main purpose of Islam is not to become the dominant religion- it is the duty of muslims to preach their religion, and if people choose to convert, okay, and if not, that is also okay, its a matter between them and god. and in response to KC's statement form the Bible, the Quran also has something similar to this: 60:8 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." KC, i did enjoy speaking with you, thank you for being polite about our religion and not attacing it viciously like other people on this thread.
Bob Owens, there are both Muslims and Christians on this that sincerely do not appreicate what you have said. this is an anti-muslim site, and the muslims are thus defending their religion. if you do not believe a god, then that is up to you. D.C. Watosn, you say, "However, there will be no debate with followers of Islam. They only know, and are only willing to know one side, theirs." That reminds me of some other people- one is you. i dont see you moving from your point of view, so why should we? so i can use that too: "There will be no debate with followers of Christianity. They only know, and are only willing to know one side, theirs."

and DC watson, you say, "There goes that "religion of peace, love and equality" again........LMAO" in response to Merv's statement.
while Islam expressly forbids us to degrade other people' beliefs, would you not be enraged if i had referred to Jesus as satan, referred to Christianity as a blood cult, and referred to Christians as terrorists and satan-followers?

and some people tell me that ISLAM is a violent religion. after reading these...
"Nothing will ever cure Islam from this disease. The wickedness of contemporary Islam is unredeemable. Every single American Muslim; Man, woman and child needs to be given a choice to convert or die. Death to Palestine!
Posted by Angry Infidel at May 16, 2004 01:49 AM"
"To all mussies,
allah is satan. isalm is evil. Burn in hell for all eternity. Urban, the second.
Posted by Urban at May 16, 2004 02:28 AM"

Aliyah,

Far be it from me to introduce logic into a a largely religious discussion, but what exactly did I say about either Islam or Christianity that was incorrect?

I know that people often do not appreciate having a mirror held up to their beliefs, but I'll wait patiently while you dissect what I said for inaccuracies.

"Jihad killing is the second most important thing in Islam." afriad not... if you knew the 5 pillars of islam, (which are the basics of Islam, and if you actually did study Islam, you would know that those are the 5 most important things) are 1) Testifying that there is no God but Allah (SWT) and that Mohammed (Peace and Blessings be upon Him) is the Messenger of Allah, 2) Praying Salah 5 times a day, 3) Fasting from all food from dawn to dusk during the month of Ramadan, 4) Paying Zakat, and 5) Making the pilgramage to the Holy City of Makkah. if you noticed, Jihad doesnt happen to be one of them. But, jihad is a very important part of Islam. Jihad indeed also is an inner struggle- one does it every day- when one is deciding between two things, one good and when bad, for one rough example.
i would prove my point further, but i feel that the way you pose your points is very offensive. i doubt, if you believe in a religion, that you are following it by calling the followers of the religion of others "Satanic cult worshippers", "blind or stupid", "Islam is based on pure stupidity"; and i do not find it appropriate to say other things you called my religion and Allah, the Supreme God over all things, beings, and the Creator of all Universes. i, too, am sure that i could think of a hundred diferent things to say about your religion, but my religious and moral code does not allow me to.

while Islam expressly forbids us to degrade other people' beliefs, would you not be enraged if i had referred to Jesus as satan, referred to Christianity as a blood cult, and referred to Christians as terrorists and satan-followers?

Posted by: aliyah at May 21, 2004 12:24 PM

Well, you say Islam forbids you to degrade other people's beliefs. Yet, Islamists want to kill non-Muslims. Islam is not going to be respected simply because it gave it self the monicker of religion. Muslims prove themselves every day, and all anyone has to do to see it, is turn on the television.

Until the Koran/Qur'an and Islam is reformed by Muslims, and when Muslims realize that Mohammed (sboh) what a crackpot, nutcase killer, then and only then will it be respected. As I've said in many other threads, the big problem is that Muslims don't feel that Islam needs reform. They think this is how life is supposed to be lived, in body parts.

No, Islam has a long way to go before they're accepted as a "religion of peace." By the way, with all of the worldwide bombing and machete swinging that Muslims are participating in, and the fact that the majority of conflicts currently underway globally involve Muslims, "religion of peace" is today's contradiction in terms.

Here is a better of the Muslim mindset and how they can't deal with the rest of the world in a logical manner;
www.faithfreedom.org/oped/BarbaraStock40518.htm
MUST WE LOOSE THE DOGS OF WAR?
By Barbara Stock

In () are my remarks-SB

My column last week--"My Rage Over Nick Berg Killing--An Apology To The Pigs Of The World"
set off quite a firestorm of differing opinions about the war on terror. At times there was hope, but most of the responses from Muslims around the world left me feeling there is little hope for a peaceful future.

There was only one Muslim woman who responded that she realized the threat radical Islam is to the world and that Muslims need to address it within their own ranks. At this moment, she and others like her seem to be the minority.
(of course she is a minority, to question is to think freely, something most Muslims are not able to do, they have been indoctrinated to follow blindly)-SB

Most followers of Islam preferred to respond either in anger stating that Americans needed to be exterminated or, while condemning the actions of terrorists, would blindly insist "they are not Islam". They insisted that no Muslim does such things, preferring to ignore the situation altogether or blame it all on American and Jewish aggression.

Of course, there was the obligatory blame put on Isreal.
Some readers responded that if it were not for the Jews and the Zionists, the world would be a peaceful place. They maintained that once the Jews are gone, all will be well. Some insisted that the Jews carried out the 9/11 attack.
(again easier to blame everyone else than to turn a critical eye on Islam)-SB

They thought I was stupid and uneducated, not to see that. Many readers seemed to feel that we Americans are just so ignorant that we can't possibly understand Islam's place in the world.
(we are starting to understand better than most Muslims would like us to)-SB

There are Sunni Muslims, Shi'a Muslims and Wahabi Muslims and they appear to hate each other. Each sees Islam through a gifferent prism. The most violent is the Wahabi branch, and it is this branch that most--but not all--the terrorist come.
It is the Wahabi sect that is doing the most killing arounf the world and it is this sect that kills fellow Muslims without regard to whether or not they accept the Wahabi vision of Islamic world domination.
This is a danger that seems to go unnoticed by other Muslims. The Wahabis are the ones who want to return to the Islamic glory days that ended centuries ago.

When I pointed out that more Muslims have been killed by fellow Muslims than any Jewish force, the responders flew into a rage and insisted that Muslims don't kill each other since Allah Forbids it.(Could some of our Muslim posters please explain all the sectarian killings going on in Pakistan,for instance, since Muslims don't kill Muslims)-SB

But even some readers could not deny that Muslims
DO kill other Muslims, but blamed it on the Wahabi sect and then would add, "But they are not true Muslims". By disavowing this branch, they seem to be of the opinion that the rest of Islam is able to clean its hands of any blood and responsibilty.(don't they all read the same Quran?)-SB

The dealth of Nick Berg was condemned by most readers.But most Muslims who wrote were able to overlook the crime(big suprise there)-SB,stating that he recieved more "humane" treatment than a few prisoners in an Iraqi prison.(ok, lets get this right, its more "humane" to cut someones head off than it is to make someone wear a kotex?
Once again, so much for peaceful Islam)-SB
Besides, it was added, he was a Jew in Iraq, he had no business being there(if you use that line of thinking, Muslims should all be decapitated, because this is a Christian nation and you have no right to be HERE)-SB, and he was probably a spy for Isreal.

I found that many of the Muslims who responded could twist the facts so much that Mr. Berg slit his own throat to make Muslims look bad!(Yea, we're just lining up to slit our own throats to make Muslims look bad, that was something I'm sure he had marked in his day planner-"HMMM, lets see, Tuesday, looks like a good day to slit my throat to make Muslims look bad, Yep, thats good for me, write it down")-SB
For some, the fact that he was a Jew was justification enough, and it was just an added bonus that he was an American.

It upsets me to say that many of these Muslims were not from Arab countries. No, they were from Canada, Great Britain and right here in the good old United States of America.
"WE ARE MUSLIM FIRST", they said
(this just proves once again, there is no assimination possible for Muslims)-SB

One from England actually said that Americans should be exterminated. When I questioned her on this, she backtracked and said, "You misunderstood! I don't advocate killing anyone. I only ment your government, FBI, CIA, and groups like that". Well what a comfort. I thought she ment all 280 million of us. Oh, I would guess that any infidels who fight back would also have to die as well. What's several million--give or take a hundred thousand? She apparently doesn't see our government as "people" either, since she clearly said she didn't believe in murdering anyone--well, except all "those people".

An American Muslim was the most distressing. His first attack was based on the bogus pictures taken from prono sites and passed around as gospel on the Arab news channels. When I proved to him that they were false, there was no apology. Then he sent a picture of a young girl whom he claimed was an Iraqi.
(What!!! A Muslim admit they were wrong? Never gonna happen, that would mean self examination)-SB

She was killed, he said by an American sniper who laughed afterwards and bragged about his kill. There is no way he could have known any of this but that ment nothing to him. A Muslim source told him it happened and he believed every word of it. He absolutely believes that American soldiers target small Muslim children to kill for sport.
As it happened, it was a picture I had seen years ago and how the girl was killed and by whom will never be known. There is not even proof that she was Iraqi. This Muslim didn't care about facts. It didn't matter when the evil Americans did it. Folks, this man is an American, a white American.

When I asked about the busload of kids killed by terrorists in Iraq, I got the standard, "They are not Muslims, but Wahabis." You could have fooled me. When I asked if Arafat was Wahabi, he said no. I asked about Hamas and Hezbollah--were they Wahabi? No, but they kill Jews so it was acceptable. It was all the fault of the Jews. (of course it is, anything but themselves)--SB

After a week of e-mail exchanges with several Muslims, only ONE gave me hope. Many of the responses from around the world contained this phrase, "America, let loose the dogs of war. It is the only way now". As I read, I would shake my head and think, no, no,no...there must be another, better way.

What a difference a week makes. Now, at this moment anyway, I see no other way. If an American Catholic can't carry on a discussion with Muslims in America, Canada, or England, what hope is there to reason with those from outside the Western influence? As I tried to put a face on the enemy, I kept seeing Hitler. Laboring to analyze this, the reason came to me.

Hitler blamed all of Germany's problems on the Jews. He believed that he was the leader of the master race destined to rule the world. Hitler believed it was not a crime to kill all who didn't fit into his mold of the "perfect human" because they were inferior and sub-human.( and for all Muslims who love Hitler for killing Jews, YOU didn't fit into his plan either. Muslims were to be next on his hit list, check out the trial excerpts from the Nuremburg Trials)--SB

Hitler led his people to dealth and destruction in a war in which millions died. Hitler was a threat to the world for years before a blind world realized too late that he must be destroyed.

It's DEJA VU, all over again.

Bartb
“Where did you come from Merv.”
I or she could ask you the same question.

“Yeah right. Prove it. We have already proved that it is NOT!
P.S.-What do you mean "islam is all about PIECE.."
You know perfectly well that she spelled peace wrong. And, how have you proven that Islam is what you think it is? Hm..let me guess…you just make a bunch of stuff up, and start preaching your view on Islam to others. Believe me, bartb, this isn’t going to work, and I am not going to start all over. If necessary, read everything from the beginning

Annie
“ I choose not to preach simply because I know no one is interestd in what Jesus had to say, see the difference?”
All I see is another Christian who just doesn’t seem to follow his religion, never mind the fact that he teaches others about a religion when he himself does not even know about his own religion.
“Also pointing out that if we don't convert that's our problem and we will have to deal with God?”
yes, it is your problem. However, this does not mean that it will stop me from stopping you from spreading lies to others.
“If people did, it's more out of fear…”
Wrong. Go watch some more documentaries on Islam. It isn’t very surprising though, you will go at anything (ahem, like spreading and starting lies), just to prove you are right.
“Don't even waste your breath telling me that.”
For the first and last time in your life, you are correct (amazing is it not?) I certainly will not waste my breath on people like you who refuse to see the truth when its sitting right in front of their eyes. Why is it that you always bring forth and mention Muslims who say things which agree to your perspective on Islam. Why is it that you are completely ignoring other important figures, who do say the right things? Go read Paul Findleys book, “Silent No More,” look at Malcolm X, April Szuchyt, Mohammed Ali, Dr. Badawy, Yusuf Estes, Yusuf Islam, and hundreds more. I am sure you are quite familiar with Yusuf Estes, who used to be a CHRISITAN PRIEST, converted to Islam. If you don’t, then go to his own website, and I am sure you are familiar of Yusuf Ali, who was before known as Cat Stevens, one of the biggest pop stars of the planet. Do not tell me they were ignorant people, who were just weak and stupid.

“To say that one cannot leave Islam is a frightening quote!”
Of course, what can I expect. As paranoid as you all the Americans are, any quote as harmless as “I am Muslim,” will lead you guys to stuff your heads under your blankets. I cannot leave Islam, because I am not and will never in my life be willing to do so. This religion is beautiful, and it gives me so much freedom, and teaches me so many morals, that not even a professor or teacher can teach. I would have to be completely thick to leave such a religion as this. O gee, did I frighten you Annie?

Dc Watson,
I am not even going to bother with all that bs you have just quoted. If you don’t want to believe what I am saying, then leave this website. Don’t bother “wasting your breath.” Because I am certain you will not be able to put up with the truth.

Kc(england)

“With that command in mind I have decided to cease from posting on this particular thread.
I have answered all your questions so feel it's time to move on.
Thank you for all your dialogue.”
No, thank you… for opening my eyes, and realizing that there are people in this world, who will forever reject the truth, even if it tugs at their eyelids, and sits in front of them. It is truly a sad case, and I hope that one day, you guys will study the Quran on your own, and realize what Islam truly is. And I also thank you again, for increasing my faith in Islam. Because as I researched more about Islam in response to your questions, I learned more, and increased my Iman. I must admit, it is sad to see you leave, you seemed to be the only one who came close to quoting the valid ayahs from the Quran, and Hadiths. This close. Maybe you’ll make it next time.

Susan B:

They don't call it Islamofascism for nothing.

Dina:

We here are all very familiar with Islamic concept of taqiyya.

Maybe that's why you're so unbelievable. Wait, no ... that would be called common sense.

CGW,
Your banging your head against a wall where Dina is concerned.
The one question she should be asking herself is,
If there is nothing wrong with Islam, then why does every conflict, or almost every conflict in the world today, involve Muslims and the forced conversion of Islam among the native populace of the countries where the conflicts are taking place?
If Islam is so great, why does the native populace reject it and in all the areas where it has taken over, why then has the living conditions failed so rapidly, ie. education, medical care, civil rights for women, freedom to practice their faiths as they wish?
In every instance where Islam has taken hold, the living conditions of the native people has fallen dramtictly.
And everytime I have asked this question, no one has ever been able to tell the truth about the negative impact Islam has.
Thats why I posted the article by Barbara Stock to illustrate just how much in denial most Muslims are about Islam.
They just can't see the problem, its everyone else in the world, but them.

susan B, can i ask you a few questions? Why can a jew grow his beard to practice his faith, but when a muslim does, he is an extremist? Why a nun can be covered from head to toe in order to devote herself to God, But when Muslimah does the same she oppressed? When a western women stays at home to look after her house and kids she is respected because of sacrificing herself and doing good for the household? But when a Muslim woman does so by her will, they say, "she needs to be liberated"? Any girl can go to university wearing what she wills and have her rights and freedom? But when Muslimah wears a Hijab they prevent her from entering her university!why? When a child dedicates himself to a subject he has potential. But when he dedicates himself to Islam he is hopeless! why? When a Christian or a Jew kills someone, religion is not mentioned, but when Muslim is charged with a crime, it is Islam that goes to trial!why??? When someone sacrfices himself to keep others alive, he is noble and all respect him. But when a Palestinian does that to save his son from being killed, his brother's arm being broken, his mother being raped, his home being destroyed, and his mosque being violated-He gets the title of a terrorist! Why? Because he is a Muslim! When there is a trouble we accept any solution? If the solution lies in Islam, you refuse to take a look at it. When someone drives a perfect car in a bad way no one blames the car. But when any Muslim makes a mistake or treats people in a bad manner - people say "Islam is the reason"!why????

aliyah:

You posted:
"I was born in America, raised in America, so doesn’t that make me an American too? But no, I guess I also am a potential threat.'

That depends. Do you pledge complete allegiance to the United States of America, or do you support its replacement by an Islamic Caliphate? And please, no taqiyya in your answer.

Aliyah,
I have the answers to your questions, but before I answer I'm waiting for your answer on the questions I put forth.
I'm not going to get into a ranting contest with you.
Trying to divert from the problems the world is facing in this day and age isn't going to solve anything.
The question was..Why does every nation where Islam has been introduced, end up in conflict and failed?

Dina,
Let me tell you something, you don't freighten me, I just have a life where I'm not always on the computer, this is not my priority my child is. I don't have to answer my faith or religion to you or anybody else. I have faith I know my religion I am not going to waste my time telling others when they are the ones blind. You said it yourself, if I don't convert that's my problem. No, thats my blessing! I hope you finally leave me along and stop repeating yourself, it's getting very old now. Go rant and repeat to someone else because YAWN YAWN YAWN. I've heard enough it's you who doesn't want to see or hear the truth. Unlike you, I WILL NOT WASTE MY TIME QUOTING FROM MY BIBLE, IT GOES AGAINST DEAD EARS SO WHY EVEN BOTHER. UNLIKE YOU, I DON'T HAVE TO DEFEND MY FAITH, SAY WHATEVER YOU WISH, ATTACK ME ALL YOU WANT, ATTACK MY GOD ALL YOU WANT. YOU WILL NOT SEE A CHRISTIAN TAKING A PLANE DOWN IN THE NAME OF JESUS. Good luck with your God.