Berg Murder: Four Held

Yeah, now that is what I call justice! These sobs will get captured and maybe in the end they will be killed as well. We don't need them breathing our air. Maybe then Nick Berg's family can have some peace. Keep it up, kill them all.

Yahoo! news says that the four held may not be the ones in teh video of Berg's execution.

Don't count chicks just yet folks...

oh shit, that sucks! here i was getting all happy

News link with a bit more info: http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1528829,00.html

They can't fight. This was the only way they could win. They're weak of mind and weak of body.

5 terrorist thugs with weapons vs. 1 unarmed American with his hands and feet bound.

Never expect a Muslim radical to fight like a man. They'll lose every time.

They're not men, they hide their faces and bound their prisoners. Cowards.

I saw an interview with Berg's father and he said something to the effect that equated the 'prisoner abuse' scandal with his son's beheading and that there is good in everyone but that their culture produced the killer's hate, and we should be compassionate rather than vengeful, since it would not bring his son back.

He had absolutely no anger in his voice or his face.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

That is something I would not be able to say. Being a mother, if someone hurt my daughter in anyway, I would not be thinking those words at all. He has great compassion for people in order to make such a bold statement! It is powerful that Mr. Berg had those comments. And yes, it won't bring his son back but we need to let the memories of Nick Berg live on and allow this family their privacy.

Berg's father is also an unequivical leftist, and used his son's death to attack the adminstration.

Any parent that can use his child's death as a political tool is beyond contempt.

So true

What we have heard from the majority of the madia and the unpatriotic Left is the moral equivalency argument between the Berg MURDER and the "prisoner abuse" scandal.

Sorry - they are not the same thing - and never will be.

The Left does not recognize that they are building their scaffold from which they will be hanged by their dear friends - the Muslims who are using the Left for its own purposes.

We are at war - the Left along with the Muslim world believes that it is at war with the USA. I believe that the USA is at war with the Left and the Muslim world.

I was with you right until the end, jihan. The U.S. may be impaired by some people on the Left, but we are definitely not at war with the Muslim world. We're sending soldiers to Iraq to protect the world from terrorism. In the process, we've freed Iraqis--majority Muslims--from a murderous dictator. We're endeavoring to help them create a democracy. We led a war in the Balkans to protect Muslims. Members of our armed forces are Muslims. Please don't lose sight of that.

jihan:

I was with you THE WHOLE WAY!

a Link from this story is imporant we are winning!!

UBL' man held for extortion
"Tribune News Service"
Thank You Robert

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

And yes All here count too!

Oh yea keep looking to the asiaian p. too!

Part of the American tribe

I think the ultimate irony of this war is that Leftists in American hope that the Right-leaning adminstration loses... to an exponetially further right group (Islamofascists), which ultimately, will bury leftists if given half a chance.

Go figure.

The West would have won this fight already, if we didn't have this huge home-grown fifth column to deal with.

Software for internet privacy and security:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=69

Ali you're right....they deny it, but we know they're here. The Saudis send millions to the left wing universities so middle east study centers can be built.

Immigration is pathetic, if we're not careful, and
if we stop educating people about the Muslim desires here in the West, we're in trouble.

Oh yes, continue educating people about the Muslim "plots" against you. Keep on spewing your hatred and threats against people who want nothing more than to live as Allah (swt) ordains.

There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. There are millions of Muslims in every Western country. All of these people are united in the goal of replacing corrupt man-made law by Allah's divine Sharia and of establishing the world-wide Caliphate. All of these people love martyrdom in the cause of Allah more than you love your pathetic lives. Tell me, will you kill all of us?

The end of the struggle is not in doubt. Stop your useless warring against Almighty Allah (swt). Embrace Islam and live in peace with the rest of the world.

Allahu akbar

"...or we'll kill you."

right reza?

Reza,

On a more serious note, I want to thank you for the education you are providing me.

I have posted here several times. Unlike most of your posts, mine contain no threats or hatred. On the contrary, I have persistently attempted to call you to Islam.

Islam is not merely a religion. It is Allah's (swt) complete and perfect instruction on every aspect of life. Embrace Islam and know true peace and freedom under the guidance of Almighty Allah (swt). There is no reason to fear - Allah (swt) is indeed merciful and compassionate.

Allahu akbar

Reza,
Would that be the law that tell you felas' to cut heads off. Or the one that tells you to drag burned bodies through the streets and hang them from a bridge??
I'm sorry Raza I have not heard you kind say sorry uncon-dicenual We see the monsters you protect. It is your call if you protect monsters you will die with them plan and simple.
we spank our children when they go in the street. You blow up yours! we do not want to understand this evil.
We are Americans if you want to defend monsters you will die with the monsters . You have to decide what you want to do .
It is simple stop killing people that do not believe like you. Simple.

We can't hear the sorry and we will not listen untill than!

We kill Fire ants and when they move we kill that mond on & on untill they are all gone so it is your choice stop your hate or you are the problem.
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and Fighting Forces and all who fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

No one will be going to Islam so you calling us is I'm sorry to say, a waste of your time. I myself am a dedicated Christian and will stay that way. YOu have your faith, I have mine, I won't call you to Jesus, don't call me to Islam.

Islam is the revelation of an "Angel of Light" named Lucifer.

Read Galatians 1:8 -
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Reza:

Tell me, will you kill all of us?

No...only those of you who are too dense to realize that we aren't interested in what you're selling.

The Koran’s 150 Jihad Verses, Compiled by Yoel Natan
www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm

Reza

I do not believe Allah to be the true God.

The Bible says about the one true God "put no other gods before me". So we know there are other gods, but they are lesser gods.

Your religion teaches you that you will get to be with Allah if you are good. Or you can override all of that by dying for Allah in jihad, this is only for the people that are muslim and are not good, and that by dying they override all of the bad and go to paradise.

This obviously rewards all of the misfits, criminals, murderers, rapists, and homosexuals that are muslim for living a terrible life.

I ask you Reza, do you know if you died today if you would go to heaven? Would you like to except Jesus as your saviour. Jesus said "He is the Way, the Truth, the Life and that no one would make it to the Father except through Him". If you would pray and accept Jesus Christ as you Saviour then you can know peace and change your life and know the One true God.

Dear;Renza

You quote lines from the usual rant that Imam's spew in public,I have seen protests where
Muslims have burned my Countries flag,they burned a Bible and spit on Police that were there to keep the Peace.
I've read enough of the Quran to know Muhammad was no Prophet,Prophets warn of future events that will happen and the message is to show Love
and Foregiveness.
Islam is not from God,you've been fooled by the
Prophet of Doom that Jesus warned you about,he said a Prophet will come claiming to bring Peace and words from God.
Muhammad heard voices in his head and also had sex with a child,the Quran tells you to murder Jews and Christian where ever you find them,the verse on not killing the innocent is a loop hole clause,non-Muslims are the enemies of Allah and therefore not innocent.

Wake-up ,the Muslim clerics send the young off to die for Islam,they just might be banging you wife while you rot in hell.Maybe the 72 virgin
are men who haven't had it through the back
door.

Seams that that shell in Iraq had 3 to 4 litters of sarin bad stuff. this is why we went to war to keep this off our shores . Thank God our guys are okay!

Rockert launcher found near a train station in the USA fox report.

The enemy with-in what will the libs do fight or flight.

Part of the American Tribe

God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Kerry is whin-ing about gas, but did not the dems stop the USA from drill-ing in ANWARa? They have staull-ed Bush's engery plan for the last 3 yrs. and now start cry-ing what a bunch of whiny babys suck it up you have made this mess mr senator Kerry

Reza,

Are you aware that errors exist in the Qur'an?

If you would like to know what these errors are, please feel free to contact me.

John

Reza, our very own Islamic cult cleric, how are you today? I see you've been confirming everything we all discuss on this site. Everytime those fingers of yours start typing away, everyone that visits Jihad Watch sees exactly what we're all discussing, and how to exterminate it from the earth. And, oh yes our little Middle Eastern thorn, it will be exterminated.

Keep typing away, your foolishness proves our points, time and time again. Where are you located Reza? I'm surprised to see you here, is there a shortage of beheadings for you to enjoy?

Reza, little sicko, go dunk your head, you're far too brainwashed to have an intellectual conversation with.

Mohammed (sboh) is your hero, now how sad is that?

reza is in the US seems he likes posting at littlegreenfootball also

THanks to Reza for exposing the true aims of Islam to any dhimmies who might be reading the posts on this site!
Better not share your post with your local mullah, reza, you would be seriously cautioned for exposing yourselves to the enemy.
You are supposed to LIE not tospeak the truth !
beware of being labelled an apostate.

Yes Nick bergs slaughterers will now have to be served tea and biscuits by the US to satisfy rhe left wing press.
The geneva convention will protect all the jihadist thugs whilst doing nothing for the coalition soldiers and civilian hostages.
In fact even tea and biscuits will not appease the loony left, to do this, they will have to place an embedded journo like robert fisk in the cell with them under 24 hour video surveillance.
When they attack him he will say "i deserved it because i am a westerner. "
when the killers proudly proclaim that Nick was ritually slaughtered in the manner proscribed for Jews like daniel, the press will ignore it.
With the press we have today we would have lost WW2 10 nil and would all be speaking German.
Those of us who are'nt Jews, Serbs, Gays, etc that is.

Reza,
I will just give you this small advise. You see in my family we had more than 6 muslims first cousins,My father is vast in Quran he studied religion, but all of them are changing and coming to the light(Jesus). Even, my uncle has become a minister who used to be a muslim.
Reza the five pillars of islam will never get you to even, the implementation of sharia will never get you to heaven, only jesus is the way the truth and the light.
You see, I can recite Quran, I can fast for 30 days, I can pray 5 times a day will never get you to heaven. Heaven is an holy place and there will be no sex with virgins, Mohammed will bow to Jesus at the end and declare that He's the lord. So please think and repent, Jesus is coming soon, you have no time, tommorrow may be too late! God (Yaweh, Jehovah) loves you.

i would recommend you guys re-visit the comments postings on the other story about berg, further down the page, may 15th. there are some really telling comments from a couple of islamo-harpies you really ought to see, one of em even gloating over hitlers slaughter of european jewry. i really believe that people of those kind of opinions are dangerously insane, and capable of anything.

"All of these people are united in the goal of replacing corrupt man-made law by Allah's divine Sharia and of establishing the world-wide Caliphate"

This is quite hysterical, Reza. As I travel to muslim countries I can tell you that most of the muslims I meet are more interested in accumulating wealth, buying Mercedes cars, and vacationing in western countries than in reconstructing the caliphate. I haven't met one yet who would trade their Rolex for the caliphate. But then, unlike you, I don't spend my time in dusty out-of-the-way camps where people study the correct way to connect cell phones to things that go boom.

yabba dabba akbar!

May 19 (Bloomberg) -- Israeli soldiers raided the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank, killing a local leader of the Palestinian terrorist group the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Haaretz reported on its Web site.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=argk0yeRt1l8&refer=top_world_news

Another martyr earns his virgins...

"We are at war - the Left along with the Muslim world believes that it is at war with the USA. I believe that the USA is at war with the Left and the Muslim world."

I'm with you there, I'll also add, there is a segment in Iran, in the younger population, which is challenging Islam, leaving the Arab religion for their older, Zoroastrian faith, and also in favor of a mosque (church) - state separation. They mean business, and from eyewitness accounts I have read, want to purge Iran of this Arab influence in their nation.

"Islam is the revelation of an "Angel of Light" named Lucifer.

Read Galatians 1:8 -
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

AMEN!

And yet, I still LMAO whnever I hear a Muslim saying they're going to heaven on "good works" alone.

THOSE MURDERERS ARE BLOODY WOOSY COWARDS! AND THE SAME GOES TO THE REST OF THE MUSLIM WORLD, WHO GO AND DRESS UP THEIR 4 YEAR OLD KIDS AS SUICIDE BOMBERS, WHILE PARADING AROUND THE STREETS WITH THE REMAINS OF INNOCENT SOLDIERS! SHAME ON YOU ALL - YOU SELF HATING HUMAN BEINGS!

Nukes are too civil. VX it is.

Hi guys,

now don`t let yourself get provoked by this Reza all the time. By the way, what does this (swt) mean ? sowhat? suchwaist?shitwit ?

Antje

Bob
Your boy Chilib is out. We aint paying your bills any more you are always try to make us look bad .
we remember the chinise embassy you are always against this Great country!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

The Iraqi People do want want freedom and the USA is fighting with them and we will win. The Iraqis have lost many lifes in this fight for freedom why is the mulsum world sending fighters to fight the Iraqis? I thought that mulsums did not kill other Mulsums.

story on Berg. there is a story news max.com Friday,May 14,2004 U.S. Bank Fined for Possible Saudi-Terror Financing

Talk's about money flowing through Guinea did not Berg teach people to make bricks there? Did he not tell his Jailor he was loseing thousands of dollars a day? Did his father not say he had no work?

This is why the State is needing to be Fired?

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who fight with her give them Strength and Courahe to stay the course to Victory Amen

"Bob,
Your boy Chilib is out. We aint paying your bills any more you are always try to make us look bad .
we remember the chinise embassy you are always against this Great country!"

Catherine, what on earth are you talking about? I'm used to incoherent rants from you, but this one leaves me completely stumped. What assertion are you trying to make? Use small words and short sentences if that helps you compose your thoughts better.

If anyone saw the entire footage of Berg's decapitation, you will have noticed that Allah was mentioned quite extensively. He was being invoked as they sawed his head off.

anyone who still thinks Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians had better wake up. Our resident Muslim cleric in here spelled it out: they want to convert the world, or kill it if they won't.

These guys are contemptous assholes. I only wish the FCC would have relaxed the standards a bit so that all of the U.S. could see the entire footage. It *needs* to be seen, just in the same way as 9/11 footage needed to be seen: the population - especially the left - need to rediscover their balls and the very real need to fight these jerks and take them out HARD.

Shades:

I only wish the FCC would have relaxed the standards a bit so that all of the U.S. could see the entire footage.

The FCC isn't preventing that tape from being broadcast on TV. They rarely get involved with things that are shown in the context of news programs.

The lawyers at the networks and individual stations are preventing them from showing it.

Shade
the best way is to tell in grafic detail your lib friends, and this will work as well. the press has had a wake up call with this sarin the spin did'nt take the facts away.

Bob we have been on this and know you are a spook ? and a kerry man it shows in your smart-ass at-a-tude dude.

Part of the American Tribe

Cathrine,

I get what you are talking about and I do not see it as ranting at all...

As I said a few days ago there is more to this Berg story than now meets the eye...

Keep putting two and two together for us Cathrine and perhaps when the total key is pressed others will see what you are saying:)

Actually, Catherine, I stick to facts. You tend towards name calling, over-generalizations and careless invective.

Which seems a more "Kerry-like" trait?

Susan, if you can understnad ad explain the China comment, I'd be greatly appreciative. It's hard to defend yourself when you can't understand teh accusations being made against you.

I feel sometimes that when I have a disagreement with Catherine that I'm arguing with James Brown.

Drunk.

Catherine and Bob Owens:

First, I want you to know that I support you both.

Although it's not my position to mediate, I think that there's been some kind of miscommunication/misunderstanding between the two of you. From my reading of the posts, you're on the same side. You just have very different ways of expressing it.

Bob I love james brown lol
Chin emb kosovo

I know cgw we are on the same side bob is easy to get his goat! and he has an at-a-tude I'm sure it works for him.
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her fighting Forces and all who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the Course to Victory Amen

Still lol

Bob,
Glad you are around ck your spelling in last post and we now how to get you? Glad to know not all is perfect

Love James Brown lol
Part of the American Tribe

Nobody's perfect. I'm just close. ;-)

Muhammad attempted an alliance of Abraham and Zoroastrian eschatological beliefs. True, he was illiterate, not only that, the Koran wasn't even written down until 10 + years after his death. Arabs were at the end of the line, surrounded by people who had a Holy Book -- the Jewish people with their Torah, the Christians with their Bible, the Zoroastrians with their Avesta....During the time Muhammad was beginning his unholy ministry, the Sassanian Empire had outposts at certain points on the borders of Arabia. Don't think for a moment that Muhammad was not influenced by these other religions, particularly the one to the east of him. Not too many people are aware Muslims blatantly stole the 5 daily prayer practice from the Zoroastrians.
Nor the belief in crossing a bridge at death. I have Zoroastrian friends, they are the gentlest people in the world, they are looking at how Islam destroyed Iran, and they are trying to reclaim their heritage. With Iran crumbling apart, those mullahs don't have a chance. They're going to be history very soon.

Abad, where did you get this info? It looks like a fascinating read.

Most of u hate Muslims and the Islam, well thats fine with me, but know this: as long as muslims are dying in Palestine and other places in the world because of the west and as long as the US helps Israel all the way killing young and old and occuping our lands, the terror will sadly go on.
And by the way it is a war against terror not against the Islam, don´t mix things up as u always do.

Hi Bob,

Ibn Warraq touches on it in his book "Why I am Not A Muslim." Fascinating read, highly recommended.

Plus, the surrounding historical considerations -- as I mentioned, the Sassanian Empire in Persia.

www.avesta.org

There's lots of great information there on Zoroastrian eschatology and religious teaching.

Here's a little something worth reading:

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ahreemanxii/page13.html?mtbrand=AOL_US

The letter from Yazdegird III to Omar Ibn Al Khatab.

The video of Nick Berg's beheading is quite gruesome, I've seen it and wish I hadn't. I do not recall what web site had it, they did not know how to work a camera, which I'm not surprised with since they couldn't even show their faces. I can understand somewhat why this video should be shown but remember this, besides the lawyers who would stop it, Nick Berg's family would make some huge waves. I don't think they would want that shown at all. 9/11 coverage in my eyes was something completely different.

I would like to say something, let me first say that I do not hate Muslims, but I do not appreciate it when I'm told I need to be educated on Islam in order to fully understand the religion. I'm not going to sit here and attack it, mainly because it's not worth fighting with people on the internet..I must agree with what JGK has said, those that do claim to be followers of Allah and then do something evil does put a great concern into the rest of us that are watching. Now I've read in different threads this evening that the 9/11 terrorists and others cannot call themselves Muslims and followers of Islam because violence is not tolerated (I'm paraphasing things I've read) and Allah would never want that. It's not convert and die as they would have us believe, am I correct to a point? Okay, but please understand this, even though you say all of his, most of us will not listen for the simple reason, we have seen many acts of violence in the name of Allah, we have heard of abuse of women by their husbands especially in Saudi Arabi under the Sharia, and to have someone sit there and defend their beliefs so earnestly is honorable with one thing, if you know that no matter what you say it is going onto deaf ears, why waste your time? I've also read somewhere on here that we are being called to Islam and our grandchildren will be Muslim, first off, our grandchildren will not be Muslim, they will be whatever we are, myself Christian as my daugther is, and if you are not trying to convert us then why sit there and say you're trying to call to us Islam? I wish I could remember who said this and on what thread but I'm sorry I can't. I know Muslims want to be respected but some of you need to respect others first before you can ask for respect. Some of the posts are just down right nasty as hell and it does not show peace! Everyone is supposed to behave as their God wants them to and some are not, Muslim, non Muslim it doesn't matter. Of course not everyone believes in God and their posts reflect that but those that do, you need to speak with pride and intelligence and respect for yourself, others and your faith. When you don't, it proves the point that you are not worth anyone's time and I'M NOT NAMING ANY NAMES NOR POINTING SPECIFIC FINGERS AT ANYONE as I'm not here to cause problems and start yet another fight in this thread. Also, a note about 9/11 as I see that was a very hot topic, it cannot be forgotten especially for those who lived it. It wasn't right but any unnecessary killing isn't right, in times of war though it's sad to say that it will and does happen. Even though it cannot be proven 100% that the hijackers were in fact Islamic that is what we are led to believe. I dont think anything can change that view. We are a nation filled with great hatered for the Middle East for what is being taught about the West. There are those countries that just hate us no matter what and I think it's more because of the freedoms we posses and they do not. Parents are teaching their children to hate us, destroy us and we are supposed to sit back and allow this to continue? We must go and fight for our country. We went in and took out Saddam, keep in mind he and his regime did many harsh, cruel things to the Iraqi people and without us coming in, he would still be in power to this day as he had his entire country scared shitless of him. After we do this, we then are photographed abusing Iraqi detanees, prisoners, yeah, that was a bright idea. I don't agree with this treatment, however, two wrongs do not make a right. Killing Nick Berg has not fixed the problem, having national media coverage of these acts is having an effect. When are terrorists going to learn, we don't listen to threats? No, we don't want any person killed by our enemies but we also aren't going to bow our heads to these people, get on our knees and give them whatever the hell they want! If we did, we would not be the country we are today, faults and all. So in saying all of this, either people are going to respect one another or you will die alone and miserable because the more you attack and disrespect it just proves how miserable a person you really are. No trying to convert those who do not wish to be converted. And if you're on this site and you know this site is against Islam, you need to keep in mind, no matter what you say, no one will listen. I'm not trying to be rude, just upfront.

To me it doesn't pay to throw insult to insult no one will listen anyway, we'll just fly right past it. You will be more intelligent and better than those who do not have enough of a vocabulary to not stoop to their levels.

Annie~ I see no probs at all with how you express yourself. I only have one problem tho: I, for one, do Not hate the middle east, or muslims. In fact I am always learning, and the histories / mythologies of the region are of great interest to me.

Problem is, the history and mythology of the region Don't Mean a Thing to the people who have been out to destroy the US and all Western civilization for over 50 years now. These are the minds behind the Destruction of ancient artwork in Afghanistan. They would like to see the destruction of the Pyramids, for God's sake. Egypt is older than Arab culture, far older, its relgion is far older than Islam, and they Can't Stand That.

Or us.

We want peace. But we won't get it by knuckling under to them.

Dase: good to hear from you, brother!

Reza: I'd be glad to talk some off-list.

Its ironic that in his books Islam Unveiled and Onward Muslim Soldiers, Robert Spencer says just the same things Reza says here: that Muslims want to restore Sharia and Caliphate, and are waging war to do so. Yet when Robert Spencer says it, hes called an Islamophobe. When Reza says it, hes a pious Muslim.

I think this shows that the American Muslim groups are being dishonest.

Dear Bob,

I posted to reply to Catherine's comment:

story on Berg. there is a story news max.com Friday,May 14,2004 U.S. Bank Fined for Possible Saudi-Terror Financing

Talk's about money flowing through Guinea did not Berg teach people to make bricks there? Did he not tell his Jailor he was loseing thousands of dollars a day? Did his father not say he had no work?
Posted by: Catherine at May 19, 2004 08:22 AM

And Your less than civil reply to her:

Catherine, what on earth are you talking about? I'm used to incoherent rants from you, but this one leaves me completely stumped. What assertion are you trying to make? Use small words and short sentences if that helps you compose your thoughts better. .Posted by: Bob Owens at May 19, 2004 01:38 PM

I see here the same weakness that I see in the general population. WE are gathered here to comment on current events., and instead of just appreciating our luxury of free speech., we degenerate into calling each other names.. Look Bob, the fact is I may not agree with all that you say...But I Will Defend to the DEATH your right to say it, and I wish you felt the same about Catherine...

As far as your question about a Chinese Embassy...I have no idea what you are asking:)

Here's to FREE SPEECH AND CIVIL SOCIETIES!!

Susanc

PS When a person is intelligent or well spoken or in any other way "perfect" they do not have to tell others...Others just know...

Gary,
What you said I do agree with. I'm not quite sure if you were saying that I was implying that you hate the Middle East, I meant it as generally not to single anyone out. The Middle East has proven it cannot be trusted at any time and we should not put up with any crap they dish out nor do we put up with their terrorists groups. Also, I know several Muslims who converted to Christianity in lue of seeing the light. I wonder,if a person cannot leave Islam then why did these people?

I'd have to agree with Wondering about the authors and the comments by Reza. BTW, anyone wants to see what a "caliphate's" law and order look like, check out RAWA@RAWA.org...and look at the photos of all the hands being cut off, women being whipped with steel cables, shot, and having throats cut in stadiums, etc.
There is an old saying: "I'm sorry, what you were doing was so loud, I couldn't hear what you were saying." With every outrage these people commit, every 'head-bobbler apologist' who supports and explains why these atrocities were "needed" or "just", they undermine thier own dubious positions. It illustrates more and more the dichotomy between the party line, and the actions of these bands of butchers, in love with their own cruelty. If this is your "kind and Merciful" Allah Reza, Mahmoud. I think I'll pass
I must say there are some fine points made here, and some fine, forgiving people. But for me...after this last incident with Mr. Berg, I feel that this is the last straw. Society must protect itself from mad dogs, and it seems more and more that with every Shalhevet Pass, Mrs Tali Hatuel and her daughters, and the like, that the violent followers of Islam, (not the majority, who seem just as outraged as other normal people) are some weird, evolutionary dead-end, bipedal rabid dog or other wild animal with no heart, conscience or care for others suffering/s. We shoot them. (rabid dogs) in my hometown, to protect others. (And keep others from being infected w/rabies)
Unfortunatly, were I president, I'm sorry to say, I'd probably attempt to recreate Carthage, 20,000 casks of salt and all.

Susanc Thanks twice!!!!!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USAand her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

I think all you right wing christians are just as bad as Reza (well almost anyway).

Just to give you an idea of what type of person I am:

RELIGION
I am not a christian.
I do not believe in a god.
I do not believe that there isn't a god.
I believe that I am ignorant of whether there is a god.
I believe that you are all just as ignorant as I am in that respect.
I am open-minded.

POLITICS
My views on politics are fairly strange. Basically I hate hypocracy. I suppose I'm on the left. But then I'm also a realist. I believe that we live in a world where might seems to make right. I believe that is the truth about this world. It's not a very pleasant truth but it is still the truth.

NATIONALITY
I am British. I don't like our current government. But at least they're better than the Tories. I might vote for the LibDems next election.

That said I expect most people in here will hate me already and will not be willing to read what I say with an open mind.

I think the right wing christians here are almost as bad as Reza and the other extremist muslims. I doubt you would want to treat muslims fairly either. And if the shoe was on the other foot you'd probably support Christian terrorists in killing common peaceful non-extremist muslims.

I would like a world where people are free to worship as they please. Where the state does not promote (or enforce) one faith over another. I think people should have the right to choose.

I also think people should have the right to choose their sexuality (`choose' probably isn't the right word here). I personally am not gay, but to each their own.

I think people should be more tolerant of each other.

I also believe that most muslims do not want to force their religion onto other people.

Daniel, I don't know if you'll ever see this response, but:

Aside from the comments about right-wing Christians, you seem to Agree with us on a Lot of issues. You may not believe that but it Is truth.

The right-wing bit is the only problem I have with you. In my own mind, I would be a 'Moderate'- and not the definition that Rush Limbaugh espouses. I own a gun. I believe in protecting the environment- but by the Original Definition, which was to protect it so as to not degrade the quality of human life. (that unfortunately got lost about 30 years ago).

I have friends in your country who are gay. That is their choice; like you say, it is when people try to Force something upon others, that 'right-wing' or 'conservative' types tend to push back.

And you may well be right- like most everyone on this planet, most muslims are just trying to take care of their own.

But some of them are Not. And I learned today that the movement they follow has existed since the 30's if not longer. They've got quite a big ball rolling and someone has to stop it.

Do me a favor? work your way down into this site and find the material about muslims in your own country. I bet the story you find here is Quite different from what you've been led to believe.

Jesus tells me that I must not be devoted to a false prophet...aka mohammud...Jesus also warned us that there would be false prophets that came after him...and to follow in the steps of a false prophet especially when he was proven wrong was a rebellion against Jesus.

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them." (Luke 21:8).

Thanks for the invite to your cult...but Jesus has commanded me not to follow the false prophet that came after him...I am quite happy with what I believe, I dont care if others believe what I do, thats their right...but my God does not command me to kill anyone that does not believe in him...he wants people to come to him of their own free will, not to be bullied and threatened into believing...yes that is the God that I accept...after all we will find out who is right after we die...feel free to look me up on the other side and say I told you so if I am wrong.

Interestingly enough if you look up near death experiences....they are basically the same among the religions...the tunnel, the white light, the feeling of indescribable peace...maybe there is something to that.

USAgirl,
We never put anyone before the Lord our God, we do not worship fake idols......AMEN! As a follower of Christ, I too agree with what you said and know that my soul belongs to the Lord for He shed his blood for us. I do not believe in preaching to anyone unless they want to hear the truth. I guess that make two more who won't covert, oh geez, what a shame!

Hi Daniel, Thank you for presenting your position, but I don't think you have us right. There are a number of people who post here in these threads who have varying ideologies and theologies. I have run across, agnostics, atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc., etc.

As such, to intimate that we might hate you because we do not see eye to eye on things is a bit hasty. All of us come from such varying backgrounds. From what I have seen there has been a wide range of reactions from tolerance and absolute intolerance here. (On a side note, remember tolerance does not mean acceptance - it means simply "to put up with.")

That being said, you do many of us an injustice to conclude (if I read your post correctly) that religious people aren't intelligent, thoughtful and open-minded. That runs the spectrum here, as does those people who post from the liberal, agnostic and anti-religious perspectives.

Post as you wish, but give us the benefit of the doubt and we will extend the same courtesy to you. Or, at least I will - I cannot comment for others.

blah blah blah...
Look folks...
it it simple...
the Islamic Extremists would kill each and every one of us regardless of our religious choice - If that choice is not Islam. I'm an American because I was born here - I was raised Catholic but have decided as an adult to forego religion due to all the hypocrisy. I've learned there is no seperation between church and state, and I've learned all politicians are liars. Each Religious writting is hearsay. The word "believe" has a lie in the middle of it. It to me is quite simple but impossible to equate to any religion or government. We are the Human Race - and anyone who wants to force their beliefes or form of government onto me is a tyrant, a despot, a person to be considered dangerous ...... and .....
You will not succeed (atleast with me)

The American Tribe is every type of persons this small world has to offer. But even we americans are capable of homegrown terrorists.

Well I ramble on
What scares me the most is that it will never end and by the numbers we are at WW3

Jesus Christ said:

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Matthew 15:9

Paula,
Let me see if I understand correctly, because I am religious I am stupid, not thoughtful nor open minded in Daniel's eyes? Okay dokey then, well I guess I shouldn't be a mother either because as a mom, you need to be all of those mentioned above and more. I will not be open minded to a cult and told that if choose not to convert than that's my problem and I will have to deal with God, that is an open threat. I would never say that to someone who didn't want to become a Christian. I think Daniel had better do more reading of all the posts here before he makes those kinds of comments. He's attacking the wrong people.

Agreed Annie. (how to say this...) My comment was an attempt to say that despite what many on the secular side think, there are many religious people who are neither stupid, intolerant, nor close-minded.

In fact, many religious people, who have been exposed to their own faith plus secular learning tend to be able to discourse about subjects from more than one position. My schooling in higher education, for instance, has taught me that much of what is taught in the universities today is a secular brainwashing and intellectual laziness. There is "tolerance," which has been redefined into "acceptance," and a close mindedness to opinions which do not fit the secular agenda. Once you bring up subjects that are "off the beaten track" from the standard liberal fare, you are shouted down, called a bigot and an imbecile. As such, my comments above were to let daniel know that there are many people here posting on the board, who are both religious and intelligent and he need not intimate otherwise.

Here is an article I think you will like that talks about secular brainwashing, enjoy: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20040323.shtml

Paula,
I do agree with you. I guess I was just mad because of what Daniel said so I felt I wanted to have my little say...

Hi, sorry this reply is so late.

First of all I'd like to apologise to most of the people that replied to my post! I was suprised to see so many open-minded, tollerant (and in my opinion sensible) people posting on this site. My post was a reference mainly to the loonies at the top of this page saying "Kill em all" etc... They were annoying me. I'm sorry I didn't realise that you weren't all like that.

``I have friends in your country who are gay. That is their choice; like you say, it is when people try to Force something upon others, that 'right-wing' or 'conservative' types tend to push back." - Gary.

I've seen that it's usually the right wing doing the pushing/forcing. At least in my country they are the ones who oppose equality.

``Thanks for the invite to your cult" - USAgirl.

Cult? What cult? If that's a reference to me I'm not a member of a cult nor did I invite you to join. If it's a reference to the muslim EXTREMISTS then fair enough, however if it's a reference to muslims/Islam in general then to be fair it IS a religion whether you like it or not! - Actually it might be the `biggest' religeon if memory serves.

``I guess that make two more who won't covert, oh geez, what a shame!" - Annie.

What two? As I said I'm fairly open minded I could probably be convinced to convert to christianity, but it would take a lot I think. (My family used to be christians but we lost our religeon in the war I think.)

``That being said, you do many of us an injustice to conclude (if I read your post correctly) that religious people aren't intelligent, thoughtful and open-minded. That runs the spectrum here, as does those people who post from the liberal, agnostic and anti-religious perspectives." - paula.

First of all I'd like to say `Thankyou'! To me at least you seem like the most sensible person here! That said I don't see where you've gotten the idea that I was saying you weren't intelligent, thoughtful or open-minded, - I can kind of see where you'd get the `open-minded' bit from though, but when I said ``I am open-minded." I was simply stating that I am open to the idea that there may or may not be a god. Not that I was completely open-minded in general nor that religious people are completely closed-minded in general. Most religous people are closed to the idea that their beliefs could be wrong, and that when they die they may simply cease to exist. I don't condemn them for that. I myself am closed to some ideas. For instance I can't imagine that I would ever accept the bible in it's literal sense (that God created the world in 7 days etc. and made Eve from part of Adam etc..), both for scientific reasons and because of the history of the bible itself.

``What scares me the most is that it will never end and by the numbers we are at WW3" - onesandzeroes.

This isn't world war 3. It's not even much of a war. For a war you need sides that are even slightly equal. Terrorism isn't war. Maybe I think that simply because of where I'm from. - Britain has had to deal with the IRA etc.. for years. Millions were lost in the world wars, I don't see how recent world events compare to that.

``Matthew 15:9" - ted

I have no idea what you are trying to say to me. What is you interpretation of that verse? - Note the word `interpretation' in that sentance!

``Let me see if I understand correctly, because I am religious I am stupid, not thoughtful nor open minded in Daniel's eyes?" - Annie

Once again I didn't say that. Some of the most intelligent people have been religous. Not to mention some of the most compascionate!! Relgion can be a VERY good thing for the world!

``I will not be open minded to a cult and told that if choose not to convert than that's my problem and I will have to deal with God, that is an open threat." - Annie.

Once again what are you refering to when you say `cult'? Just the extremists or all of Islam? Also doesn't christianity say that if you don't believe in God then you won't go to heaven? Or can you go to heaven based on being a good person alone? I can't remember, might depend on the demonination.

``there are many religious people who are neither stupid, intolerant, nor close-minded." - paula.

I completely agree. To understand the rest of your post I had to look up the word `secular'. Yes I'm ignorant about the meaning of a lot of words. It wasn't actually very easy. Does secular mean `non-clergy', `non-christian', `non-religious' or `athiest'?

If it means `athiest' then I agree with you. My little brother's an athiest (I used to be.) and he's very closed-minded and anti-religous. That said I was exposed to christianity. My primary school whilst not being a `christian school' was run by some fairly religous people. They made us pray until I rebelled!! They used to talk about christianity as if it was undesputable fact, which annoyed me even as a child. Though they did teach us a little about other cultures, I remember learning about `divali' (Hindu festival of light if I remember.)

The upbringing my parents gave me (in terms or religion at least!) was fairly good I think. They basically said, ``A lot of people belive in God, personally we don't. But what you belive is up to you."

``My schooling in higher education, for instance, has taught me that much of what is taught in the universities today is a secular brainwashing" - paula.

What do you mean? What has happened? I'm at university studying for a physics degree. There are many people there from many different backgrounds and religions. I haven't seen religion discussed much to be honest. I'd like to know what kind of brainwashing you've seen.

Ok I think I'm done! These posts are getting longer! Once again I'm sorry for the late reply. I also expect my next reply may be late as well as I have exams at the moment.

Thanks for replying to me you guys! I'll try and check back soon.

Sorry I forgot to remove all the spelling mistakes from that last post! As you may notice I can't spell any more! - That's what you get when you do a physics degree and you do too much work with numbers. I'm gonna try and read a lot more over the summer!

Ok here is my post spelled properly! (I hope!)

Sorry for making such a mess! If only there was an `edit' feature.
----

Hi, sorry this reply is so late.

First of all I'd like to apologise to most of the people that replied to my post! I was surprised to see so many open-minded, tolerant (and in my opinion sensible) people posting on this site. My post was a reference mainly to the loonies at the top of this page saying "Kill em all" etc... They were annoying me. I'm sorry I didn't realise that you weren't all like that.

``I have friends in your country who are gay. That is their choice; like you say, it is when people try to Force something upon others, that 'right-wing' or 'conservative' types tend to push back." - Gary.

I've seen that it's usually the right wing doing the pushing/forcing. At least in my country they are the ones who oppose equality.

``Thanks for the invite to your cult" - USAgirl.

Cult? What cult? If that's a reference to me I'm not a member of a cult nor did I invite you to join. If it's a reference to the Muslim EXTREMISTS then fair enough, however if it's a reference to Muslims/Islam in general then to be fair it IS a religion whether you like it or not! - Actually it might be the `biggest' religion if memory serves.

``I guess that make two more who won't covert, oh geez, what a shame!" - Annie.

What two? As I said I'm fairly open minded I could probably be convinced to convert to Christianity, but it would take a lot I think. (My family used to be Christians but we lost our religion in the war I think.)

``That being said, you do many of us an injustice to conclude (if I read your post correctly) that religious people aren't intelligent, thoughtful and open-minded. That runs the spectrum here, as does those people who post from the liberal, agnostic and anti-religious perspectives." - paula.

First of all I'd like to say `Thankyou'! To me at least you seem like the most sensible person here! That said I don't see where you've gotten the idea that I was saying you weren't intelligent, thoughtful or open-minded, - I can kind of see where you'd get the `open-minded' bit from though, but when I said ``I am open-minded." I was simply stating that I am open to the idea that there may or may not be a god. Not that I was completely open-minded in general nor that religious people are completely closed-minded in general. Most religious people are closed to the idea that their beliefs could be wrong, and that when they die they may simply cease to exist. I don't condemn them for that. I myself am closed to some ideas. For instance I can't imagine that I would ever accept the bible in it's literal sense (that God created the world in 7 days etc. and made Eve from part of Adam etc..), both for scientific reasons and because of the history of the bible itself.

``What scares me the most is that it will never end and by the numbers we are at WW3" - onesandzeroes.

This isn't world war 3. It's not even much of a war. For a war you need sides that are even slightly equal. Terrorism isn't war. Maybe I think that simply because of where I'm from. - Britain has had to deal with the IRA etc.. for years. Millions were lost in the world wars, I don't see how recent world events compare to that.

``Matthew 15:9" - ted

I have no idea what you are trying to say to me. What is you interpretation of that verse? - Note the word `interpretation' in that sentence!

``Let me see if I understand correctly, because I am religious I am stupid, not thoughtful nor open minded in Daniel's eyes?" - Annie

Once again I didn't say that. Some of the most intelligent people have been religious. Not to mention some of the most compassionate!! Religion can be a VERY good thing for the world!

``I will not be open minded to a cult and told that if choose not to convert than that's my problem and I will have to deal with God, that is an open threat." - Annie.

Once again what are you referring to when you say `cult'? Just the extremists or all of Islam? Also doesn't Christianity say that if you don't believe in God then you won't go to heaven? Or can you go to heaven based on being a good person alone? I can't remember, might depend on the denomination.

``there are many religious people who are neither stupid, intolerant, nor close-minded." - paula.

I completely agree. To understand the rest of your post I had to look up the word `secular'. Yes I'm ignorant about the meaning of a lot of words. It wasn't actually very easy. Does secular mean `non-clergy', `non-Christian', `non-religious' or `atheist'?

If it means `atheist' then I agree with you. My little brother's an atheist (I used to be.) and he's very closed-minded and anti-religious. That said I was exposed to Christianity. My primary school whilst not being a `Christian school' was run by some fairly religious people. They made us pray until I rebelled!! They used to talk about Christianity as if it was indisputable fact, which annoyed me even as a child. Though they did teach us a little about other cultures, I remember learning about `divali' (Hindu festival of light if I remember.)

The upbringing my parents gave me (in terms or religion at least!) was fairly good I think. They basically said, ``A lot of people believe in God, personally we don't. But what you believe is up to you."

``My schooling in higher education, for instance, has taught me that much of what is taught in the universities today is a secular brainwashing" - paula.

What do you mean? What has happened? I'm at university studying for a physics degree. There are many people there from many different backgrounds and religions. I haven't seen religion discussed much to be honest. I'd like to know what kind of brainwashing you've seen.

Ok I think I'm done! These posts are getting longer! Once again I'm sorry for the late reply. I also expect my next reply may be late as well as I have exams at the moment.

Thanks for replying to me you guys! I'll try and check back soon.

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I suppose I jumped the gun a bit on interpreting what you had said. I have read enough posts from people who are non-religious (and/or secular) and seem to be of the opinion that those who are lack intelligence and open-mindedness. So, if I misunderstood some of what you said, I apoligize.

Secular is usually set at opposition to Sacred - at least that is how I have learned the definition to be understood. Hope that clarifies things.

Daniel:

Respectfully, I think that you need to educate yourself a bit more on the Islamic threat. Read Robert Spencer's books, read Ibn Warraq, but especially read articles and the comment sections here and on Dhimmi Watch. Go back a ways and look at some of the longer threads, or those where the topic seems of particular importance.

BTW, no one cares about your typos or spelling errors! :) This place is rife with them! Some who post here are not native English speakers, some of us post hastily and don't proofread first, etc. The important thing is what you have to say, and we welcome your input.

Most of us here want a world of tolerance and choice; in fact, many have fought and served to protect those rights for us. Many would give their lives in the struggle to preserve our way of life. Unfortunately, the "other side" will brook no such option as freedom and is laboring to forcibly establish an Islamic Caliphate worldwide. Their agenda is to force you - and all of us - to convert or die. THAT is what we are fighting, not you. But it's clear that you haven't yet recognized the extent of the threat. It WILL be WWIII, make no mistake. And it will be waged on many fronts. Our "army", our "frontline", will be comprised of many and diverse peoples; kind of like the group that posts here ...

educating yourself about islam will not happen if you read the books you suggest. go out, ask a muslim what kind of books a nonmuslim should read to educate him/herself about Islam in today's world, and read those. i suggest asking a muslim or non-biased person so that you will not get a book writter by a jew, christian or some other completely anti-muslim person. read something by Malcom X, (a convert) Karen Armstrong, Yahya Emrick (a convert), or get some material by Yusuf Estes (a convert who was previously a preist and found the truth). and notice, a preist must have a LOT of knowledge about his religion, more then all of you (unless you are preists), and even after that, he became a muslim.

to daniel:

the purpose of quoting Christ was not necessarily directed at your blog. in the general stream of consciousness relating to the earlier parts of this thread, it seemed to me that folks were discussing the tenants of islam and whether or not it was a valid position to follow muhammed and whether or not he was a genuine prophet and if the koran is a genuine text subsequent to the old and new testaments -- though in a general sense, that particular subject can be a metaphor for all theological discussions; christian, atheistic, and otherwise.

there is not much to "interpret" about matthew 15:9 (indeed, the same quote can be found in mark 7:7). Christ is plainly addressing the issue of the pharisees (the jewish religious leaders of the time) and their hypocrisy -- given that they had supplanted the scriptures with doctrines of their own design. thus, the doctrine of Christ that those who teach the commandments of MEN as doctrine are worshipping Him in vain stands of its own accord without much interpretative hermeneutics applied to reveal its meaning. in the same sense, if we examine the teachings of muhammed in the koran, we can see that they are not in accordance with the Bible, but in many cases contradict the scriptures that Jesus Christ himself upheld (robert's book "onward muslim soldiers" of which i am about halfway through makes this case quite succinctly with regard to such issues as war, murder, conversion, and treatement of people). therefore, it follows that followers of the cult of muhammed worship Christ in vain -- if at all. i will leave you with two more texts to ponder:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Acts 16:31

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

Daniel,
I wasn't referring to you when I had stated ``I guess that make two more who won't covert, oh geez, what a shame!" I was speaking to USAgirl. Your post sounded like you were putting those down who were religious.....I'm not going to repeat it all; now when I said I wouldn't join the cult I was referring to Islam. They keep saying it is only the extremists but since I've finally gotten a copy of the Qu'ran myself, my eyes have been opened and I don't like what I see. If you read the Holy Bible and the Qu'ran you are able to see the big differences, especially the way the Qu'ran speaks about Jews and Christians, it's pretty sad. I haven't read the entire Qu'ran but the few passages that I did, are very un nerving! Catholics believe if you don't go to church or follow the bible then you won't go to heaven. Christianity is a bit different. Of course they want you to go to church/service and worship, read the bible. In order to go to heaven, you must believe in Jesus with all your heart, follow his commandments, however both Catholics and Christians do follow the same principal, if you don't believe in God you won't go to heaven. That is part of our faith, those who don't follow God or believe in him believe there is no heaven or hell, or at least, the majority of them. Now I won't even get started on the End Times when Jesus comes back, but you have to keep this in mind, no matter what you do, Jesus will always love you and forgive you as long as you ask him for forgiveness. I stopped being a Catholic many years ago as I saw too many discrepencies in that religion. A few of them: children are born into sin and therefore must be baptised, Christians, or at least my religion of Protestant believe that children are born free of sin and therefore are dedicated to Jesus the parents dedicated themselves to their child and to raise that baby to know and love Jesus; Catholics have 7 extra books in their Bible; having to confess your sins to a man instead of going straight to Jesus, even though it is stated in the bible there shall not be any Gods before your Lord God; you are told to pray to Mary and various other Saints where they cannot get you into heaven only Jesus can. Jesus died on the cross for us, he shed his blood for us, Mary did not. Yes she carried and gave birth to him but she cannot intercede on our behalf. The final decision is Jesus's bottom line. Now I know many Catholics who are very devoted, read the bible, go to mass every Sunday, tithe, and they are good people so it doesn't matter whether you become Christian or Catholic. Just keep this in mind, the bible teaches us to love one another as Jesus loved the world, of course you can follow it or not that's your choice. I don't hate Muslims, I don't hate Islam, I don't like the principals of Islam and so far from the little I read, I don't like what is taught in the Qu'ran as it is very biased. Most Muslims believe and feel that Islam should be the only religion followed and Christians/Catholics do not believe that, at least I don't. I realize there are many other faiths out there, that is why America is a melting pot. But with radical Islam coming at so fiercely, it makes me even more thankful that I believe in a Lord that teaches love, understanding, REDEMPTION. He would not turn his back on you when you do something wrong or evil. He won't be happy but you will always be his child. You don't have to do anything to earn his love, it's already there. You just have to accept it and ask him to come into your heart and confess your sins to him. Daniel, there are many, many people who don't believe in God but we are all still God's children no matter what we believe. We can to go to him at any time. I'm really not trying to get religious on you, I guess I am just trying to give you food for thought. Now, being a good person is wonderful but I'm sorry, that alone won't get you into heaven, you must believe in heaven and what it stands for and all that goes with it. In the end, the choice is yours.