From AP, with thanks to J.P. Mackie, who asks, "Can we expect the same from any Islamic leaders — to come on TV and express their dismay about the murderous mutilation of innocent workers passing through Fallujah, or the senseless killing of a pregnant mother and her 4 children?"
WASHINGTON - President Bush said Wednesday in an interview with Arab TV that the treatment of Iraqi prisoners by some members of the U.S. military was "abhorrent" and does not represent "the America that I know."Bush's appearance on Arab television was set for the day after the Army disclosed that it is conducting criminal investigations of 10 prisoner deaths in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus another 10 abuse cases.
In addition, the deaths of two Iraqi prisoners already have been ruled homicides. In one case, a soldier was court-martialed, reduced in rank and discharged from the Army. In the other homicide, a CIA contract interrogator's conduct has been referred to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution.
"There will be investigations, people will be brought to justice," Bush said of the alleged humiliation and abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, a notorious prison during Saddam Hussein's regime that was taken over by U.S. troops.
He also said that the U.S. inquiry would look into whether such instances of abuse also took place in other prisons. "We want to know the truth," Bush said.
The late Tibor Szamuely, who taught at Reading University in England, spent many years in Soviet labor camps. Back in the late 1960s, in England, I would look forward to his pieces in the Spectator, almost always about Soviet life, sovetskij byt'. There was one piece in which Szamuely recalled being in a camp in 1953, and the 20-30 zeks all squeezed into a single unheated room, after their daily ration of watery insect-filled gruel, were despite this listening, with tears of laughter running down their cheeks, one prisoner as he read out the official Soviet expression of "indignation" at the way the American government treated its "political prisoners." Tears were sometimes accompanied by howls of laughter from the prisoners.
I bring this up because all the expressions of feigned indignation and outrage in the Arab countires, the headlines in the press Cairo, for example, that scream "SHAME!" and "SCANDAL!" make one want to laugh and howl with the same laughter, and the same howls, as those prisoners in the Soviet Union, in the same year that Stalin died.
Can one take seriously the "indignation" people who react with delight and glee at the cold-blooded murder of a woman and her four children, with ages from 2 to 11, each one deliberately killed with a bullet, a culture that spreads a videotape of the first Internet snuff movie, the killing of Daniel Pearl, that delights when a Jordanian army officer kills six little girls on an outing to a "Peace Garden" and hails that officer as a "hero" for his "brave act," that sees nothing wrong with the mutilation of American corpses (except for the damage that act might do to "Islam" -- in other words, worry only about the little matter of image), that uttered not a syllable of protest when 182,000 non-Arab Kurds were murdered, some with poison gas, and not a syllable, either, for the 1.8 million southern, non-Muslim blacks who have been killed or deliberately starved to death in the southern Sudan, and the million Muslim, but non-Arab, blacks now being raped, killed, and dispossessed all over the western province of Darfur.
We should not be so quick to fall all over ourselves in apologies, especially since so far the evidence that has been available suggests nothing so much as moronic fraternity-hazing. Indeed, were I the defense lawyer for those charged, I would search, and be sure I would find, photographs taken during hazing rituals that would be nearly identical to those published as evidence of "torture" (?) and "abuse" by Americans.
Less lemming-like responses, and a little more froideur, as well as understandable contempt for those who claim to be outraged but are the current world masters at real torture (which is precisely why some human rights groups protest when the U.S. sends prisoners back to the likes of Egypt, Jordan, Syria for questioning -- isn't it?).
The apologies, the salaam-salaam by members of the Administration, can only be justified if they help to save the lives of American soldiers there. But the hypocrisy and the hysteria of the Arabs should not be forgotten, nor forgiven. They are happy to whip up murderous hatred against those soldiers, who are there for the SOLE PURPOSE of helping reconstruct Iraq. One more reason to get out, quickly, not in order to join appeasers in Europe, but to rally the forces, in Europe and elsewhere, against appeasement of Jihad, Muslim demands, further Muslim immigration.
Szamuely is dead; the Soviet Union no longer exists; the same kind of hypocrisy that provided those prisoners the relief of laughter is alive, and well, and running down the corridors of power, knocking on doors, everywhere in the chanceries of the West.
i look at it this way i have no doubt that similar acts have been going on at the prison compounds in gitmo and in afghanistan because after reading the military report that got leaked it appears alot of the things being done where being done at the proding of military inteligence and cia to basically degrade the prisoners to a point where they would talk during interagation so to conclude that these methods where exlcusive to iraq is wrong. when it comes down to it torture and interrogation go hand and hand the problem is the united states cannot torture people like they do in other countries because it envolves heavy physical pain and imparement and we have signed treaties outlawing it but we can do everything to get up to that point and while it might not be as physical as say the torture in syria or egypt it has some of the same effects to put the prisoner into a state where he will give information.
and if bush and rumsfeld where clueless about what was going on there then they need more then just give a appology. i could understand bush not having a idea about it but not rumsfeld
Thomas Hamill escaped last weekend from his kidnappers. I believe he has to have surgery on his arm. Was that from a gunshot? I wasn't sure, but was there possibly, just possibly some abuse there?
We are better people, we were raised in a better society. We should've never done anything to these prisoners except keep them jailed. I'm as upset about them as just about anyone, but looking at a bigger picture, our military has made so many sacrifices, and now has suffered an unnecessary hit.
Personally, I'd like to beat every terrorist into the dirt, but we're the leaders of the planet, and we should've just taken care of business long ago. We need to finish our job, give freedom to another Arab nation that will always hate us, then move on to the next terror cell or brutal dictator. We're dealing with ingrates, and if we ever received an apology from the Arab world for anything I think I'd do backflips.
We never got an apology from them after 9-11, what we received was a Saudi Pince telling Rudy Guiliani that we should look at our foreign policies as they pertain to the Middle East.
This war will never be over until Islam is reformed, or ceases to be recognized as anything more than a fanatic cult.
I think there is more to this story that hasn't come out.
Is there anyone out there who would really want the job of taking care of these prisoners?
If a soldier was well trained and combat ready they wouldn't put him to work in this prison.
This is about who's in charge, not who is charged!
Bush's apology was really for the benefit of our ME friends. To say nothing would give them no defense against our enemies.
It seems 25 detainees have died in US/coalition custody. This really will not win the hearts and minds of Iraq. You can make all the arguments you like about how it compares to the treatment meted out under the previous regime but I think that the abuse of prisoners should be condemned and pointed out that this is not a US sanctioned policy but the acts of a few irresponsible soldiers. Or at leas that is what I hope anyway.
Dittio Hugh Wish I could write that way. go to news max. com they have a story on the abuse worst came from Iraqi Recuits
I am sick of this groveling. Bush is a complete wimp.
I have no confidence in him ( or Kerry ).
Yah Yah, enough already.
It is not justBush or Kerry that I have no confidence in. Our whole government is lacking the "balls" to call a spade a spade. This "religion" has declared war on our way of life and we should respond in kind. This not hitting their "holy sites" is so much crap. If they don't want them hit then don't hid in them.
Hey Joseph:
Did you drop out of school after failing 3rd grade? Your writing sure looks like it.
Off topic:
Can anyone recommend a comprehensive work by Bat Ye'or? (So many to choose from)
Also, has anyone read or heard about "The End of Democracy" by Abid Ullah Jan, which lays out arguments for why democracy is finished, to be replaced by worldwide Islam? (I haven't read it, but it came up on an Amazon search.) From the reviews, Muslims are just eating it up! Check out some of the "customer reviews" on Amazon ...
im the first to admit my english skills suck rick
but thanks for pointing it out:)
actually mr hamill was wounded in the ambush that destroyed the convoy that he was in. the iraqi's from early reports gave him a little treatment (put his arm in a sling,bandaged the wound, and i believe early on gave him some drugs to knock him out)
bob,
"It seems 25 detainees have died in US/coalition custody."
How do you know they all died from US mistreatment? Some could have been attacked by other inmates, others could have died of wounds received during capture, or even committed suicide. I don’t know how they all died, and nor do I suspect you do.
OT
ok i broke down and ponied up the 29 bucks for the last copy of onward muslim soldiers it also seems odd all the hate america books where stocked up and on sale 40% off but then again when i told the clerk i just bought his last copy he said they will have to order more
I gotta tell ya.....The World's Media seems upside down with the reporting of "Prisongate" in Iraq. Where was the outrage when 4 dead Americans were burned and hanging from a bridge in Iraq? I could care less about what we may or may not have done to Iraqi prisoners. Whatever it was...it pales in comparison to what they have done to our people and what Saddam did to THEM during his rule.
JP and ME:
I strongly believe President Bush`s decision to respond to the Arab and Iraqi media regarding the prison abuse issue was the correct one.
It is important for the leader of the free world to speak to the moral compass of this country and address the fact, that what occurred in Aba Ghraib prison or other prisons will not be tolerated and justice shall prevail.
An open forum that allows for an untainted line of communication from the president should always be welcomed.
As I said in my short comments on this article, Do you think we could hear from some of the Islamic leaders regarding the atrocities committed by their followers?
It is time for all peace loving peoples of the world to wake up!
The so called "war on terror" is actually a war on Jihadist Muslims, where ever they may be found. And, my friends, war is hell. THIS IS HOW THIS WAR HAS TO BE WAGED!!
In almost every instance of a terror attack, the evidence points to an Islamic Jihad group as the culprit - either claiming responsibilty, by funding or perpetrating the attack. These people (term used loosely) have no regard for the sanctity of their own lives, what makes you think an apology for these 'prison pranks' will appease them. I am convinced that we are in the very early battles (Afghanistan and Iraq) of what will become WW III. Once these brainwashed mongrels are set loose, all hell breaks loose and innocent victims, whose only "crime" is they are not "Islamic", are massacred, slaughtered, burned, decapitated, dragged behind vehicles, etc.
It may sound crazy or absurd, but it appears that Mohammed was the antiChrist and that the ulterior motive of the Islamic "religion" is to have total world domination. I am convinced it is the largest Satanic Cult in history and has been growing and festering in the Middle East for centuries.
This war has to be fought like no other war in history. There can be NO apologies. There can be NO compromises. There can be NO truces. There can be NO treaties. There can only be total elimination of the enemy.
If you, the reader of this post, were born and raised a Muslim, and are offended by this, that is just TOUGH. YOU need to be speaking out loudly against what your religion is promoting through the sinister Mosques.
If you, the reader of this post, converted to Islam, then you need to seek spiritual counsel elsewhere, anywhere but at the Mosque. Go Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, or anything but Islam.
If you are a Jihadist, then you are already prepared to die. Your time is near, good riddance! And I believe the "72 virgins" you expect to cavort with in "heaven" will turn out to be a 72 year old virgin in HELL! (You know some of those old verses can be difficult to translate!!)
If you are non-Muslim, do whatever you can to denounce the debauchery of these Islamic Jihadists and the equally quilty Muslims that just look the other way. Even a simple prayer or meditation to beseech your God or Gods to protect and guide both you and your fellow peace loving human beings through the coming decades of war.
Thanks, Mr. Spencer, for Jihad Watch! It has become a part of my daily routine.
To joseph and jimmytheclaw
I know this'll sound really petty but could you please capitalise at the beginning of sentences, and jimmy, please use full stops. I say this because I skip over unpunctuated posts, they are just too difficult (and irritating) to read. If I do this, maybe other readers do also, so chances are you are losing a not insignificant percentage of readers.
"Can we expect the same from any Islamic leaders — to come on TV and express their dismay about the murderous mutilation of innocent workers passing through Fallujah, or the senseless killing of a pregnant mother and her 4 children?"
Firstly, Horowitz's place had a link to this so I thought I should check it. Secondly, I think you will be bringing disrepute with the word "Jihad" if you continue to slander with every Muslim. You will not want "Jihad" be defined as an abusive word do you?
Although neither of us is God or has a right to decide who shall be killed or deserve killing. I wonder why you could not ask yourselves what these two have in common:
(A)Iraqis killing those who support an illegal occupation and a US Army now responsible for the deaths of thousands of Iraqis lives after killing millions by malnutrition.
(B)A woman who identifies with an occupying force AKA the IDF and her people responsible for loving a man who has a documented hatred against Arab women and children.
You seem to disregard communal responsibility when it goes against you, but celebrate it when you practice it on Muslim like the so many articles pasted on this blog. It was not Iraqis how invaded America, or Palestinians who invaded Germany to create the Jewish refugees.
Finally, G Bush apology was late and fell short of fully acknowledging the rogue elements the US Army is invested with.
"They are happy to whip up murderous hatred against those soldiers, who are there for the SOLE PURPOSE of helping reconstruct Iraq. "
Give me one example of what America constructed that Iraqis did not have before you invaded them?
While you are gladly paying taxes towards the tribalist Israel, the poor Iraqis are paying from there own pockets.
Shallom!
Firstly, Horowitz's place had a link to this so I thought I should check it. Secondly, I think you will be bringing disrepute with the word "Jihad" if you continue to slander with every Muslim. You will not want "Jihad" be defined as an abusive word do you?
Although neither of us is God or has a right to decide who shall be killed or deserve killing. I wonder why you could not ask yourselves what these two have in common:
(A)Iraqis killing those who support an illegal occupation and a US Army now responsible for the deaths of thousands of Iraqis lives after killing millions by malnutrition.
(B)A woman who identifies with an occupying force AKA the IDF and her people responsible for loving a man who has a documented hatred against Arab women and children.
You seem to disregard communal responsibility when it goes against you, but celebrate it when you practice it on Muslim like the so many articles pasted on this blog. It was not Iraqis how invaded America, or Palestinians who invaded Germany to create the Jewish refugees.
Finally, G Bush apology was late and fell short of fully acknowledging the rogue elements the US Army is invested with.
"They are happy to whip up murderous hatred against those soldiers, who are there for the SOLE PURPOSE of helping reconstruct Iraq."
Can you give me one example of what the Americans have constructed in Iraq that wasn't there before the invasion?
Mackie:
There has been enough apologies.
Now lets obliterate completely the enemy.
Destroy everything then warn them:
if you cause trouble again it will be worse.
The Arabs respect this. They respect winners,
not grovelers.
If we want to win this war we have to be mean.
Get it!
This isn't a PTA meeting.
I have not seen any Islamist leaders or the Arab league apologize for sodomizing Jessica Lynch and few air women captured during the first Gulf War.
I am tired of our feckless politicans apologising for everything without thinking.
Jessica Lynch was sodomized???
"I have not seen any Islamist leaders or the Arab league apologize for sodomizing Jessica Lynch and few air women captured during the first Gulf War. "
I am just laughing because I think that is irrational and misguided opinion. Even the poor girl admits she was not raped. It was just our western media who couln't sell papers unless they find an excuse to talk about sex.
Hugh,
Well said, I'm tired of the apologies particularly to Arabs who aren't going to care anyway. I'm also tired of hearing about Arab outrage over the prisoner abuse. These same Arabs said not a word about torture and abuse under Saddam. These same Arabs recently celebrated the murder of a pregnant woman and her four children. Arab hypocrisy sickens me.
P. Evans
Last I heard Jessica Lynch said she couldn't remember what happened and the military would not say whether or not Lynch had been sexually assaulted. Even if Lynch had amnesia upon medical examination it would not have been hard to determine whether or not she had been raped. BTW - It is known that all female American soldiers captured during the first Gulf war were raped by Iraqi soldiers.We know because the soldiers reported the rapes.
What is the poor girl going to do-tell the world about her gang rape. She has to live a life and get married. It is very common for rape victims to hide their identity even in US, so they have a future for a normal life. She required multiple surgeries to fix the damages. See the sanitized medical report commnent.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/US/Jessica_Lynch_031106-1.html
You should see the PBS movie on Gulf War were the air women admits to being kissed....,,,.
I don't understand why you act surprised about rape when these people regularly mutilate dead bodies for fun. Thinking otherwise is naive.
"I don't understand why you act surprised about rape when these people regularly mutilate dead bodies for fun. Thinking otherwise is naive. "
The only Muslim girl I know of once received an abuse of similar type by a man saying:
"You like being raped aren't you? That is the only way you get sexed in your country"
So that is why I think these types of "rape" allegations to be something else other than the "truth".
I think that Bush shoulda said "We regret the
mistreatment of freedom fighters in Iraq. However; the world should know that these abusers
are very small in numbers (a handful) and that they
do not reflect the official policies of the the
U.S." "We are a peaceful nation that is being hijacked by radical Americans."
I will take a Cowboy any day or a Marine they have true heart that is what the rest of the world loves about America they don't like the cr-- coming out of Hollywood these days We are not perfect but no one is. We have to get over that and get on with business. That is what Bush is try ing to do. The Americain spin Lib's are out doing what they can to bring America down. They don't think these people want to kill them well they are wrong, and it is our duty to try to inform all we can to help protect this Great country we all love.
God Bless the USA and Her Fighting Forces and those who Fight with her give Them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen
Check this out! The CBC headline is that Bush offers NO apology...
http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2004/05/05/iraq_bush_iview040505
Oh those commies at CBC...
We seem to forget that Americans are still being killed by Iraqis. Although these Iraqi prisoners were treated badly they are still alive. There have been many reports of Iraqi prisoners hurling feces and urine at American jailers while they are detained and interrogated. Although this doesn't justify the behavior and photos, one can understand why the jailers consider these people worthy of humiliation.
Contrast our groveling and shame with Muslim pride and celebration over the deaths of Americans for the past three years AND the call for more deaths.
Hearts and minds? Excuse me Mr. President. That battle is lost in madrassas and the Arab street when these murderous chimps are brainwashed by the tribal Islamic Cult of Death. It requires thinking to win a mind and Islam destroys the heart.
WW3 is underway and this weak, effeminate pandering to Muslims is viewed as weakness. There ought to be one simple rule....if you shoot at Americans you will die, celebrate the death of Americans and you will die. There are no civilians in this war, not on 911 and not now. Islam must be exterminated.
Here's an interesting quote from USA Today from
Fadhel al-Hassam a criminal court judge in Baghdad.
"Why is the whole world upset about these photos and was not upset about a million Iraqis killed by Saddam's regime?"
I agree with Mr al-Hassam. Enough already about these photos.
In reaction to Mr Bush's telecast, responses from the Arab audiences are arriving and being reported on the radio, of the general drift that: "leaders all lie to us every day - Bush is lying too, as he's shamelessly done many times previously, specially about the WMDs".
In professional interrogation, resorting to physical violence is a sign that the inquisitor has run out of more effective techniques of trickery, persuasion, stress and duress, etc.
Moreover, the quality of anything extracted via brutality and torture is normally of dubious quality.
The arab world which could not even raise a whisper of sympathy for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis murdered by saddam can however raise a cacophony over the brutal treatment of jihadist killers by a few sadistic american troops.
troups who are a TINY fraction of the 120,000 or so americans in Iraq.
lets face it its ALL about HATRED OF AMERICA.
Of course thy will hate America whether they give them candy or kill them.
And not a whisper from the Arabs on the genocide in Sudan and the killings in Nigeria etcetc.
Its all in the name of Islam.
As if this is not bad enough we have every left wing publication in the western world parroting the arab fury at discovering that even yanky troops sometimes commit attrocities as if the whole thing was meant to be a game of chess !
Courtmartial the culprits and get on with supporting your troops , they are fighting to save you from eventual Islamification.
The fact that President Bush as well as so many high ranking US government officials coming out for the public mea culpas may well be seen by the Muslim community as a major governmental cover-up - why are so many coming out on this? No doubt, the US Gov't knew about this all along and tried to cover it up. What has been the Arab Press spin on this?
Notice that NO Muslim Government official has come out against this humiliation and torture of these Iraqis - because such and worse happens EVERYDAY in these countries - Muslim torturing and killing fellow Muslims. The Arab news has come out against the Americans doing such things, but never against their own governments.
The Arab press is at best hypocritical - when the 4 Americans were mutilated and paraded around the street, the Arab press cheered! but then said that it is against Islam to mutilate bodies - but not of Infidels - so that was ok.
When these photos came out - here comes the Arab press saying that the US government is the moral equivalent to Saddam's! Really? Where are the rape rooms, throwing people off of buildings to their deaths, gathering up families to torture and rape family members in front of each other, etc.
What was done to these Iraqis is unexcuseable and those involved must be dealt with harshly!
What I find truly amazing are the remarks made by the Iraqis pictured: The comments are mostly about being humiliated and BEING MADE TO FEEL LIKE A WOMAN- the lowest thing possible! This really put the truth out about what Muslims really think about women - women are the lowest thing on earth to be humiliated daily!
I would well imagine that an infidel woman debasing and humiliating these men made it even worse for them - humiliated by Infidels and then by an Infidel woman - what could be worse - and now those pictures have gone worldwide with this humuliation - what could be worse to the Arab/Muslim mind!
The Arab culture/death cult of Islam are based on the humiliation and debasement of those not Muslim - dhimmis - so this was THE WORST thing that could have happened to these men.
All of Islam has now been publicly humiliated by the great Satan - the USA!
The reaction will no doubt be more jihadis killing more innocents in the name of ALLAH!
jihan
We seem to forget that Americans are still being killed by Iraqis. Although these Iraqi prisoners were treated badly they are still alive.
by lugh lampfhota
Lugh
The american soldiers are being killed in Iraq and will continue to be. Nobody is liking the invasion and the colonisation of Iraq, and if you do this to any other country expect worse. American soldiers in Iraq deserve to die, due to the stupidity and greed of the higher american officials. The Iraqi civilians are innocent and should not die with this brutality; what do they expect the bombing of fallujah will kill, the resistance are hiding when they bomb and attack when the soldiers enter the city.
If american soldiers do stay in Iraq, expect massacres. The Iraqi people are tough, as is shown by the mutilation of the bodies of american soldiers.
Before i finish, i must ask a question. If iraq was a world superpower, and then they said that the US had WMDs, that their president is barbaric and cruel, or for whatever reason, would the american people just give up and forget it? I think they would do exactly as these resistance people are doing
thanks
"American soldiers in Iraq deserve to die". Your peaceful Islamic colors are showing, Tarek.
"The Iraqi civilians are innocent and should not die with this brutality" I don't consider Zarqawi, suicide bombers, alSadr, and terrorists civilians. Neither does anyone else.
"The Iraqi people are tough, as is shown by the mutilation of the bodies of american soldiers". Yes, mutilating bodies certainly is tough. Would you consider it tough if American soldiers were doing it to the bodies of Muslims.
Tarek, that was a most informative post. You told us a lot about the true Islamist mindset. More than you know, in fact.
Tarek
At first you argued well and your points were coherent. However, I am not sure if the heated rhetoric of these post have gotten to you or what but now you are incoherent.
The Iraqis are tough and fought well you stated. First of all, the only tough fighting was done by jihadists who are presumably not from Iraq, but Syria, Iran etc. The First Gulf War and this war has made the Iraqi military prowess the laughing stock of the Middle East. The image of thousands of Iraqi surrendering is etched in my memory.
Secondly, why would Americans deserve to die? Even if you don't like us on your soil, we are bringing Iraq a better way of life. The Prison Torture Scandal is a great example. American soldiers (enlisted and officers) will pay with their careers and or a prison sentence. In the Arab world, that type of abuse is common place.
You mentioned in the earlier days of Islam people voted. When is the last time that happened in Syria, Saudi Arabia the previous (Saddam) Iraq and the Taliban's Afghanistan? In the American Wild West of the 1800's, once the outlaws left town (usually on a horse drawn cart shot dead by the town's sheriff) the people of that town were eternally grateful that the good guys came in to liberate them from the thugs that ran the show before. Someday Tarek you will thank us and realize our soldiers did this not only for America's well being but for the Arab world as well.
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive. And don't ever apologize for anything.
--Harry S Truman
"The Iraqi people are tough, as is shown by the mutilation of the bodies of american soldiers."
If that's true, why didn't they get rid of Saddam Hussein on their own? Or did they just like being sent feet first into plastic shredders for 30 years?
It's easy to mutilate a dead body as they don't put up much resistence. No one stood up to Uday or Qusay when they were chucking tough Iraqis off the rooftops or brutalizing soccer players for losing matches or cutting people's tongues out for having a contrarian opinion or sending women to rape rooms or that poor girl who didn't want to be raped by Uday was eaten alive by his dogs.
Everybody
I dont think the attack on Iraq was at all serf defense by the US government, and i dont beleive that all the people, or even most of them were even terrorists and sudr resistance. These people who die are mostly civilians, and im against the killing of ANY civilian, whether hungarian, somalian, american, arab, or indian. Military units who attack civilians do deserve to die. Any military unit who attacks civilians, or even civilian who attack other civilians. I am sorry if the truth hurts so much, but thats how the world works
thanks
Military units who attack civilians do deserve to die.
Posted by Tarek at May 6, 2004 07:24 PM
So do bonebags that hide like rats in caves, and fat slob cleric wannabes that hide in mosks, as their "civilians" (who happen to be armed) hide behind women and children......
Hey people:
Terek's ranting just goes to prove that these Muslims (if he really is one and not an illiterate 30 year old virgin troll sitting in his mama's attic) that they do not understand American culture at all. They talk like they want a war of annihilation with us, and may even think that they do, but I assure them that they do not. Because if they do succeed in "ripping the sheep's skin off the American wolf's back" as Mr. bin Laden has boasted of doing, I can promise them that we will wage something like the Indian wars on a mega-industrial scale against them.
Rick
If you want the world to be a barbaric law-of-the-jungle place for everybody, please let the american government continue its savage attacks on civilians everywhere. Why stick to iraq, when there are innocent civilaians everywhere else in the world.
Whoever put in your mind that the muslims are willing to wage a war of annihilation on the US you are severely misled. The muslims here in the arab world like everything american, from the fast-food to the clothes, and i personally enjoy the american movies. But we cant help ourselves when we see two arab countries where the civilians are continuously murdered barbaricallyby foreign armies., its just ugly.
I want anybody to tell me a reason for the american occupation of iraq. I want anybody to tell me the reason for the air raiding in palestine and iraq that are directed towards civilians.
P.S. Actually i am a muslim 18 year old, but you were right about the fact that i am a virgin
thanks
Watson
The statements you mentioned still dont justify the murder of all these innocent iraqis. If the american air force did know that the bombing of any target should kill a couple of the resistance fighters and a lot of other innocent civilians, should they carry it out all the same?
thanks
Tarek
I appreciate that you have sexual morals. I think you might be surprised that many people that post here probably aren't living a decadent lifestyle. Do you understand why people on this site might be angry. When America makes mistakes the whole world knows about it. These facts aren't hidden by some dictator who controls the press.
I realize you will have a hard time believing this but when you reach 40 you will be glad America tried to make Iraq a democracy. It's benefits will be enjoyed by the Arab world for generations to come. Do you honestly think that the corrupt regimes of Assad, Arafat etc are the way to go. Those regimes torture people and no one is held accountable. Right now Donald Rumsfeld is getting grilled for what happened to some Iraq prisoners. Could you picture anyone in the Asaad or Arafat regime being grilled by their people in such a fashion. That's what democracy is all about.
If a Christian leader would say the same things Bin Laden says he would have a few whacko follwers, not the millions that say they have a favorable opinion of him as do in the Muslim world.
Tarek I can honestly tell you that very few people here in America really hate people for hate sake. They only hate when they feel they have been attacked as on September 11 and the one responsible is actually perceived as being a hero. As I have said before, someday when these corrupt regimes in the Middle East are gone and democracy takes hold you will thank America for introducing it to you.
DJH
I dont ever think democracy can be introduced by force, only the people can bring about the change. Democracy introduced that way will probably backfire, causing caos and mayhem in the country and the rise of a more cruel and barbaric regime than that of saddam hussein as soon as the US forces leave iraq.
Otherwise, i dont think the US can even open 21 fronts on all the arab world to change their government, and i do tell you, every single government in the middle east is corrupt, decadent and greedy. To tell you frankly they all need to be changed, but that is not the way.
I dont think americans lead decadent lifes, only they have different virtues and values from us. Why arent they willing to coexist with us. A single radical group who killed 3 thousand people in your country shouldnt set off world war three, between muslims and the west. You must not connect every islamic radical group to the real islam, which is all about peace and mutual respect between fellow muslims.
thanks
Actually i forgot to add that approval bin laden gets from the public here is because of the biased treatment of Israel pre 911.
The american veto was always there when a UN legistlation should ever be acted on israel, and the second gulf war didnt make that any better. Hate of the US government, not people, came through that way.
Tarek
You are very intelligent young man. Some posters from the Middle East are pro-Bin Laden and get everyone very angry. Yes, I am sure some posters from our country (USA) get a little hot headed as well but you must understand that although many followers of Islam may dislike Bin Laden. We haven't seen large groups of Islamic leaders denounce him. If we have a Christian crazy that kills thousands of people for a perceived wrong there aren't going to be many people who follow him.
Intelligent people like youself have to denounce radical Islam. You may be right that you can't force democracy on people but we feel like we must do something because we can't have another September 11.
The Palestinians have to realize that the Israelis aren't going anywhere. You can't send them to America or Europe. I think the Israelis understand that they have to live with a Palestinian state. Does the Arab world undertand it has to coexist with Israel. Tarek, I went to college that had a large Arab population. I consider many of them my friends, two of which were Palestinian. Tarek I have to tell you I was very discouraged at times because I don't think they accepted the reality of Israel. I have to also tell you that I consider myself a religious person that tries to better myself through my Catholic faith and understand those who don't share my faith. I only get angry and frustrated when I feel radicals, in this case Bin Laden, have a dominant hold on another religion.
DJH
You mentioned good points in ur previous message. Arabs are still finding difficulty accepting the presence of Israel, and Israel is not making it any easier by killing off palestinian civilians, and refusing to compromise anything to the palestinians. Palestinians cannot beat Israel in any conflict, and they should have know better than to bomb themselves in Israeli settlers and civilians and worsen their image to the international public.
Israel beat the arabs many times before, and thats hard to cope with as well.
thanks