KARBALA, Iraq (AP) U.S. forces battled fighters loyal to radical Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr in his stronghold of Kufa overnight Sunday, and at least 18 people died. Many militiamen returned to their homes after abandoning the center of another holy Shiite city, Karbala, witnesses said.The clashes broke out when American tanks and troops moved into the city for the first time as part of an effort to weaken the militia of al-Sadr, a fierce opponent of the U.S.-led occupation who launched an uprising against the coalition in early April. He routinely delivers a sermon at Friday prayers in Kufa.
It seems as if even AP is getting tired of "the holy city of ..." designation. It calls to mind a recent Scrappleface headline: "New York, Washington Declared Muslim Holy Cities." Now that's thinking outside the box, and an interesting tactic to boot.
Back to AP:
The U.S. military has said al-Sadr's forces are using mosques and shrines to store weapons and organize attacks, while the radical cleric's supporters have accused the military of desecrating holy places.
Meaning: if al-Sadr's forces attack from the mosque it is not a desecration, but if U.S. forces follow them back to their lair, it is.
Hi!
Stop!
That word "stop" is for the US. Ask them to stop what they r doing against the iraqis. Why dont the media put pressure on US? Why are everyone quiet? The UN seems to be a humble pet dog of the US! What's happening in Iraq? If i even met an American in my city (Bangalore, India), i did rather do the same what the American and British soldiers are doing to the Iraqis. I believe in tit for tat and that will be the attitude in any average human. I am not a muslim, but, i am a human. How could humans do this to humans? I could not see the images! This will surely lead to World War III, if America and UK does not stop what they are doing on Iraq. Please, for god's sake, stop all this. Lets be humans!
the idea is interesting, lets make all the cities in the united states holy; with the exception to hollywood, seems there are quite a few muslim freiends in that part of the town.
Stop? Do you mean stop building schools? Or stocking and upgrading hospitals? Or stop developing democracy? Or stop religious fanatics from turning Iraq into a fascist hellhole? Or do you want them to stop protecting the Kurds from their oppressors? Do you want them to stop arresting Bath Party war criminals? Exactly what do you want the Americans to stop doing?
This article doesnt mention the tragic destruction of the Al-Der Kocker Laundromat, the third holiest laundromat in Islam!
Ram,
What exactly would you have the United States stop doing in Iraq? Building and repairing mosques? Opening schools and giving substantial raises to teachers? Expanding hospitals and providing modern medical technologies?
Unfortunately, Ram, you are suffering from the same problems in India that we are suffering from in the United States, which is targeted bias from liberal media.
The media is putting tremendous pressure on the US government. Despite unqualified military success, they suggest we are in a quagmire, and despite all the positive influence we are having in Iraq for the Iraqi people (like the examples I mention above), they prefer to focus on the less than 1% of the population that is fighting an unpopular insurgency.
Very little media attention goes to the fact that al Sadr’s militia is so unpopular that average Iraqi civilians are ambushing them. But I bet you don’t read that in the papers because that isn’t the information that supports the viewpoint the media want to provide.
The liberal US media have a vested political and ideological interest in defeating President Bush, and if that means providing partisan news coverage that may cost US lives, they are willing to sacrifice our soldiers to do so.
I hope you would treat American soldiers as they would treat you: with courtesy, dignity, and respect.
US soldiers have shown remarkable restraint, considering the cowardly ambushes from behind civilian shields, or from protected sites such as mosques and hospitals. We are fighting an enemy without honor, and are doing so in a way that fills me with pride.
You do not believe in “tit for tat.” You have no idea how to be humanitarians. We wrote the freaking book.
The United States has rebuilt more countries, given more humanitarian and financial aid, and forgiven more debt than the entire United Nations combined.
You want tit for tat? Why doesn’t your country start contributing something to the world other than tech support.
Cowboy up.
Guys:
Once again,I would like to invite you all to read/post more over at Dhimmi Watch. Articles there are often of tremendous interest and importance.
un as the...what is it, "humble pet dog" of the US?
What did the un do for the US or Iraq? When the going gets tough, the un gets going. Took the first flight out of Iraq for Cyprus once the Jihadists started hurling bombs around willy-nilly.
The un's minions have had their hands out for those petrodollars filtered thru the Oil for Food program for years. Benon Sevan is on permanent vacation till he retires, how's that for transparency? They have lost all credibility and I suspect quite a few Americans would like the un out of New York City and the US. Maybe they can go to someplace more user-friendly.
As for what leads to WWIII, you have a problem in your own nuclear backyard with Pakistan so ease up on the lectures, Kana.
Ram
Why do you ask US to stop?
Ask the insurgents to put down their rifles, their RPGs and their roadside bombs.
What's that? They're just defending themselves?
Lets all sing "give peace a chance".
http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/may/23jk.htm
Robert Spencer would not put Jihadis killing
Indians as terrorism. Terrorism is only when
Americans or Israelis get killed.
But this is terrorism. So I do not expect
this to be in his blog.
NY times says ' 28 soldiers killed' even though
half of them are women and children and relatives of soldiers. Why not say 'Jihadis killed innocent hindu women and children' as headlines.
Naresh C:
I think you completely misunderstand Robert Spencer and his ideas. Have you read his books?
Why don't you submit the link to the article for posting? You are making blanket assumptions that are just patently false. We are opposed to the victimization of ANYONE, WORLDWIDE by Islam, not just Americans and Israelis. Please join us.
Naresh C.:
NY times says ' 28 soldiers killed' even though half of them are women and children and relatives of soldiers.
I just looked at the NY Times, and I didn't see any mention of this story at all.
There IS, however a link to the story from the Times to Reuters:
Explosion in Indian Kashmir Kills 28 People
At least 28 people were killed when a bus packed with Indian soldiers and their families ran over a land mine in disputed Kashmir Sunday, officials said.
The attack, which came one day after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh took office, was the deadliest in Kashmir since India and Pakistan began a peace process late last year to resolve the dispute over the territory, the cause of two of their three wars. A senior police official, K. Srinivasan, said 19 Border Security Force troopers, three children and six women were killed in the blast at Lowermunda, 60 miles south of Srinagar, Kashmir's summer capital.
Sorry, but the Reuters piece seems to mention the fact that only 19 of the 28 dead were soldiers.
Bob O -
a couple points...
from 4/28/04
"BAGHDAD — Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll. (Graphic: Iraqis surveyed)"
It isn't just the 1% fighting insurgency that we're up against -- the majority of Iraqis don't want us there... compare that w/ the response we got when Hussein was first toppled (I'm going off memory here - but most of them were, even if begrudgingly so, optimistic about the u.s. toppling saddam, and you saw people dancing in the streets and naming their kids GeorgeW.Bush -- and it was the same "liberal media" that was reporting this good news back a year ago...) Now why the huge change in opinion by the Iraqi people over our involvement in Iraq? Are they just ungrateful? Nope... we went in with a force that was not equipped to occupy a country of that size, and we completely failed to maintain the peace. The blame rests completely on our shoulders (not our soldiers mind you, but the ones in charge of planning this war).
And as for india being subjected to the liberal media, I can assure you as someone that has visited there many times and that has relatives there, that the Indian media is certainly not liberal or leftist in portraying terrorist attacks on its soil -- and the vast majority of people in India support the united states (in spite of it supporting Pakistan, in fact, they cannot understand why the US supports pakistan). The coverage we are getting around the world is simply the consequence of going into war unilaterally... as unfair as it may be, it's the truth. If you don't think that's the case, think about the coverage we got around the world for the war in Afghanistan, a war we entered multilaterally - the coverage was infinitely more favorable
"You want tit for tat? Why doesn’t your country start contributing something to the world other than tech support."
hardehar - that was actually a pretty good jab. you should be aware however that Vajpayee and the Indian govt. really tried to reach out to the Bush administration and offer help w/ the taliban post 9/11 - the Bush administration chose to seek help from Pakistan, and the Indian government's support for the Bush admin has waned as a result (if you don't understand why that would be the case, think back to America and the USSR in the cold war -- yeah, it's kind of like that) -- of course it made a lot more sense for us to enlist pakistan's help -- we have a greater need for their help than we do for India's, but don't let that detract from India's initial intentions
P.s. I don't know how many of you follow what's going on in India, but this morning I heard, after some relative peace and progress between India and Pakistan, a roadside bomb in or near Kashmir just exploded killing a bunch of vacationing Indian soldiers and their families - oh well, the peace was fun while it lasted...
lobo - whoops, sorry about the end of my message - didn't read your post
Naresh C said "Robert Spencer would not put Jihadis killing Indians as terrorism. Terrorism is only when Americans or Israelis get killed.
But this is terrorism."
I don't remember Mr. Spencer limiting the scope of terrorism to just the killing of Israelis and Americans. I don't think you will find many on here that would disagree with you that the above mentioned act was an act of terrorism.
Islam is causing problems all over the world. Nigeria, Chechney, Sudan, Bosnia, Serbia, Kashmir, Philippines, Indonesia, Spain, France, Holland, Thailand, Algeria, All of the Middle East. I am sure there are many that I have missed. We are all in this together.
Homeland Security and others interested in US Security: PLEASE BEWARE; I HAVE BEEN STUDYING THE LINGUISTICS TRICKS THE ISLAMOFASCISTS USE TO COMMUNICATE ACROSS THE INTERNET AND THERE IS VERY MUCH DISCUSSION AMONG THEM ABOUT POISIONING OUR AIR, FOOD AND MEDICINES (not that they would not go for ANY way they could find).
There is even talk among them about infiltrating Churches and pretending that they are Christians, maltreated 'refugees', etc. to get better enable them to get immigration visas. Fabrication of educational papers is rampant. They will LIE to get Visas and very dangerous men are already within this nation as, perhaps, you well know.
How did the world get so terribly sick; this is all such a shame. Whether leftists want to admit it or not, we Republicans DID elect Pres. Bush and the LAW the Sup. CT based their decision on IS just and well rep. within the LAW. Those we have not elected think they know better how to run the government and some DemocRATic personages have done things that come very close to treasonous. I believe the DNC (who is loaded with mafioso union and crime types) Kerry took money from certain ME "leaders" who are desperately afraid their cushy regimes will fall to democracy, freedom and absence of extremism (which brings them the money and power they long for).
Jesus (Yeshua) said for Christians to live a quiet life and live in peace with all men SO MUCH AS POSSIBLE, but he did NOT tell the soldiers to go home, but merely to be SATISFIED with their wages. The Commandmandment is "Thou shalt not MURDER", not "Thou shalt not "KILL". Christians ARE allowed to defend their nation.
He said he is with us AL-WAYS, but so he still commands us how to live in a CIVILIZED world with a proper government and a civil class. Revolutions happen when the uneducated, the enemy or the jealous for power is allowed to seep in by the majority. They will use bald faced lies, so be careful who you believe.
Capitalism is the best system the world has because it enables ALL to be whatever they can aspire to. Communism says, "You owe me, no matter what I do". Charities are being misused on a rampant scale by criminals (of all religions), the Islamists and others.
I do believe it has all been foretold. [fo-r-et-old].
For linguist buffs and those who like studying languages, remember the ORIGINAL Hebrew had no spaces [air, which backwards means "rai"]between letters nor even PUNtuation so, I wonder, who put in what is know as the "tittle" or the "jot"? [ed stands for "witness"] The brick is a red "brick", but really is rather a "rubrique" as the French would say. That 'brick' probably had the blood of Abel on it. The motto of the story is that "Cain",[ i.e Ca-IN, i.e. "Sayin"] MURDERED his brother in the 'field' and the "red" is the "blood" of his brother "ABEL". Why did he do it? Because ABEL'S actions were righteous and Cain's were EVIL and Cain was JEALOUS.
So, I say to the leftist's Communnist's: We don't want your system which is I believe is an inferio trap, and please stop lying and helping the enemies of this nation before you get us all (including you) murdered. And keep an eye on the Islamist's who have suckered black people into accepting extremist Islam(Arab's were some of the worst slave traders-they neglect to aprise blacks of this little) into being traitors to the nation {and haters of Jews and Christians}. Yes, some of our white ancestors enslaved your ancestors, but then we DID welcome you as brothers (thanks to a REPUBLICAN Sup. CT Justice). This is not to stay that some people do ans still may not treat you well, but personal responisiblity is STILL what life is really all about. Don't say you don't have opportunity because there is a library in every city.
Hopes the populace will settle down and let those in govenrment lead.
Please excuse typos, my spelling tool is not enabled for some reason.
Homeland Security and others interested in US Security: PLEASE BEWARE; I HAVE BEEN STUDYING THE LINGUISTICS TRICKS THE ISLAMOFASCISTS USE TO COMMUNICATE ACROSS THE INTERNET AND THERE IS VERY MUCH DISCUSSION AMONG THEM ABOUT POISIONING OUR AIR, FOOD AND MEDICINES (not that they would not go for ANY way they could find).
There is even talk among them about infiltrating Churches and pretending that they are Christians, maltreated 'refugees', etc. to get better enable them to get immigration visas. Fabrication of educational papers is rampant. They will LIE to get Visas and very dangerous men are already within this nation as, perhaps, you well know.
How did the world get so terribly sick; this is all such a shame. Whether leftists want to admit it or not, we Republicans DID elect Pres. Bush and the LAW the Sup. CT based their decision on IS just and well rep. within the LAW. Those we have not elected think they know better how to run the government and some DemocRATic personages have done things that come very close to treasonous. I believe the DNC (who is loaded with mafioso union and crime types) Kerry took money from certain ME "leaders" who are desperately afraid their cushy regimes will fall to democracy, freedom and absence of extremism (which brings them the money and power they long for).
Jesus (Yeshua) said for Christians to live a quiet life and live in peace with all men SO MUCH AS POSSIBLE, but he did NOT tell the soldiers to go home, but merely to be SATISFIED with their wages. The Commandmandment is "Thou shalt not MURDER", not "Thou shalt not "KILL". Christians ARE allowed to defend their nation.
He said he is with us AL-WAYS, but so he still commands us how to live in a CIVILIZED world with a proper government and a civil class. Revolutions happen when the uneducated, the enemy or the jealous for power is allowed to seep in by the majority. They will use bald faced lies, so be careful who you believe.
Capitalism is the best system the world has because it enables ALL to be whatever they can aspire to. Communism says, "You owe me, no matter what I do". Charities are being misused on a rampant scale by criminals (of all religions), the Islamists and others.
I do believe it has all been foretold. [fo-r-et-old].
For linguist buffs and those who like studying languages, remember the ORIGINAL Hebrew had no spaces [air, which backwards means "rai"]between letters nor even PUNtuation so, I wonder, who put in what is know as the "tittle" or the "jot"? [ed stands for "witness"] The brick is a red "brick", but really is rather a "rubrique" as the French would say. That 'brick' probably had the blood of Abel on it. The motto of the story is that "Cain",[ i.e Ca-IN, i.e. "Sayin"] MURDERED his brother in the 'field' and the "red" is the "blood" of his brother "ABEL". Why did he do it? Because ABEL'S actions were righteous and Cain's were EVIL and Cain was JEALOUS.
So, I say to the leftist's Communnist's: We don't want your system which is I believe is an inferio trap, and please stop lying and helping the enemies of this nation before you get us all (including you) murdered. And keep an eye on the Islamist's who have suckered black people into accepting extremist Islam(Arab's were some of the worst slave traders-they neglect to aprise blacks of this little) into being traitors to the nation {and haters of Jews and Christians}. Yes, some of our white ancestors enslaved your ancestors, but then we DID welcome you as brothers (thanks to a REPUBLICAN Sup. CT Justice). This is not to stay that some people do and still may not treat you well, but personal responisiblity is STILL what life is really all about. Don't say you don't have opportunity because there is a library in every city.
Hopes the populace will settle down and let those in govenrment lead.
Please excuse typos, my spelling tool is not enabled for some reason.
with held -
I'm pretty confused... what does any of this have to do with communism?
with held
take a breath-
the sun still rises.
"With Held":
This is Department of Public Health. Do not be alarmed, we are here to help you.
It looks like we have forgotten to take our medication again. That's all right, you are not to blame. You just need some hugs and unconditional love.
Please don a burqa and exit your trailer with your hands on your head. That will protect you from the evil Islamic death rays until we can provide you with a new aluminum foil cap.
We will take you to a safe, Muslim-free park where you can have a nice, quiet vacation. Come on now, we just want to help you.
lobo, here is the link
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Kashmir-Attack.html
"Kashmir Bus Explosion Kills at Least 28 Soldiers"
Headline is obviously wrong.
CGW, this website is obviously more fair than NY times and I agree with many ideas that Mr Spencer talks about. But read the opening statement on this
website too which says "Because the West is facing a concerted effort by radical Muslims". Thailand and India are not a part of west. The bias in western media is systematic and endemic when terrorism hits non-westerners.
Ofcourse, the Indian media is no better when it comes to Iraq war. Read Ram's comments for example. If terrorism continues, US and India may have to eventually become reluctant partners to fight it. As for Mr Spencer, he does have the intellectual honesty to present his case and I commend him for that but the problem affects far more people than what his blog regulalry writes about.
naresh c:
Surely you can understand our preoccupation with our own culture as we are faced with the immediacy of this threat. That is not to say, however, that we are indifferent to the suffering of others. You can help us to expand our focus by regularly addressing your own religious, political, cultural and national issues of concern vis-a-vis the Islamic threat here.
I believe that India is our natural ally in this fight, and that that will become increasingly obvious. Personally, I welcome it.
While the American media is slobbering all over itself in breathless worship of the Moslem religion, let us remember the level of respect the Islamic supremicists have for other people's holy sites:
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/03/12/afghan.buddha.02/
Northerner
I was merely reacting to the general assumption, on this board, that Muslims are incapable of scientific thought. During the more enlightened period, to which I referred, they were just as capable as any of their western counterparts. I agree that the societal context is supremely important in determining which ideas are realised rather than remain dormant in unread textbooks. These Muslims were undoubtedly scholarly men, whereas, for example, the British pioneers of the industrial revolution were practical men with an eye for commerce, and their society was built on economic and political freedoms. It goes without saying that a modern economy cannot survive under Islam as practised by the Jihad-bots. Then again, why did the industrial revolution kick off in Britain but not in broadly, similar European countries? Equally, you might say China didn't fulfil its early potential.
Ivan
I'm reposting this because the previous one seems to have disappeared when the site was down.
I am indebted to you for your remark about the Hindus - I wasn't aware of that. However, my general point remains valid: Muslims contributed to maths and all the sciences. We should give credit where it's due. I despise Islamic facism as much as anyone on this board, but blowing holes in the pages of history with a mind-hate gun will get us nowhere.
If you think I'm an Arab lover, you've misunderstood my post.
I saw that item this morning about the jihadis blowing up the convoy of Indian soldiers. I wonder if the renewed jihadi violence in Kashmir is related to the recent defeat of the hardline BJP by the "softer on Islam" Congress Party?
If so, this may be a pre-taste of what we Americans can expect if Kerry wins in November.
Susan:
this may be a pre-taste of what we Americans can expect if Kerry wins in November.
I suspect that you're correct in that assessment.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we were to suffer a major domestic terrorist attack shortly before the elections, as well, particularly if it looks like Bush will win.
Unfortunately for them, an attack on the US would probably have exactly the opposite of the effect the Madrid bombings had on Spain.
My dear Naresh C.:
Your comment is inaccurate. We have in fact covered many stories about the jihad in Kashmir and India. In my books and at this site we are interested in exposing jihad terrorism wherever it occurs.
Search for Kashmir and you´ll see.
Cordially,
Robert Spencer
Please, for god's sake, stop all this. Lets be humans!
Posted by: Ram at May 23, 2004 10:45 AM
Dear Mr. Ram.....perhaps you should echo these sentiments to the Muslim fanatic maniacs. If they disarm, and let us finish our work, they'll stay alive to see the rebirth of a free Iraq.
If not, then they go see Allah sooner than they ever dreamed. Let's be human? We're trying. You should talk to the other side. Or, are you already on the other side?
If you're Hindu, you should be applauding American efforts in the Middle East. India is the world's largest democracy. What are you Mr. Ram? Hindu or Muslim?
Robert Spencer would not put Jihadis killing
Indians as terrorism. Terrorism is only when
Americans or Israelis get killed.
Posted by: Naresh C. at May 23, 2004 01:47 PM
Naresh, this is a racist type of remark. If you take the time to read the stories on this site, you'll see that reports are posted from all over the globe.
Muslims hacking Christians with machetes in Nigeria.
Muslims attacking Buddhists.
Muslims planting bombs in Italy.
Muslims bombing and killing 191 Spaniards.
Muslims stating that Canada is selfish and needs bombed.
Muslims carry out the murder of 3000 people on 9/11/01.
Wise up.
You are ill-researched. But then again, you're probably a victim of racism too. Disgraceful commentary on your part.
DC Watson wrote
"Naresh, this is a racist type of remark."
DC, my comments were perhaps angry but not racist. Any case, I will apologise for my remarks which were partly unsubstantiated and has been refuted by quite a few ppl on the board. But my allegation of lethargy towards friendly non-allies must not be construed as racism.
I have found a systematic gradation
of terminology used in NY times: terrorist > suicide bomber > militant > seperatist. For example NY times would always call chechens as seperatists. The word militant or seperatist
is used for attacks against India depending on
whether India's relations with US is more cordial
or less cordial but never the word terrorist
or atleast extremely rarely. Apart from a full fledged war with Pakistan, the only options available to India are brinkmanship, American pressure on Pakistan or accepting terrorism as a way of life . Brinkmanship is a dangerous game. That is all the more reason why
India needs to engage USA politically but obviously in the end, it is India's duty to defend itself. Nevertheless,
I will agree with one thing you said that should US not succeed in middle east and disengage, the
terrorist actions in India will increase as Jihadis will divert their energy there. However, it will be equally dangerous for the west.
Look at today's news headline by Associated Press:
"Kashmir Bus Explosion Kills at Least 28 Soldiers"
Killed by whom ? Was it an accident ? Did it not include civilians too ? Why not a headline
" Islamic "militants" kill 28 people including
civilians " .
Susan, the recent terrorist acts are not related
to change of government in India but rather due to melting of snow. When the snow melts, the terrorists can inflitrate Kashmir from Pakistan.
India will not end the pretense of peace process just yet because it needs breathing space to continue its economic growth. We will just have to wait and see how the new Congress government reacts but I also expect it to focus on economic growth and cry foul on terrorism to internationally community (just like the previous government) rather than begin a game of brinkmanship so quickly.
Everyone,
Ram used to post on the Paknews message board.
He plays the part of the pacifist, but is not.
No matter how much proof you put before him, he will not believe it.
And throughout all of his so-called calls peace, love and harmany, there is an anti-west slant.
America is always at fault, no matter what.
Naresh,
I asked this on another message board and never got an answer, so I'll ask it again here.
Wouldn't it be better for Pakistan and India to stop fighting over Kashmir and let it become an independent state, that governs its self?
The actual people of Kashmir just want the Islamic insurgents and the Indian military to go away.
The great majority of the people in Jammu and Kashmir have been Muslim since the 13th Century. At the time of the partition of India and Pakistan, the Hindu ruler of Kashmir turned the province over to India. A promised plebesite was canceled by India.
The peace-loving people of Jammu and Kashmir want only to live according to Allah's divine plan. Kashmir must become an Islamic state (probably as part of Pakistan) and Islamic law (Sharia) must be implemented. The polytheists (Hindus), who are a minority of the population, must embrace Islam if they wish to remain in Kashmir.
Allahu akbar
Reza you old devil, they are not "peace loving" and you know it. It's interesting how you selectively apply your logic; by your rationale, the Muslims who are minorities living in Christian nations should "embarace" Christianity if they want to live in the USA. You are a perfect example of how there is no tolerance of other religions in your twisted cult.
Reza:
Kashmir must become an Islamic state (probably as part of Pakistan) and Islamic law (Sharia) must be implemented. The polytheists (Hindus), who are a minority of the population, must embrace Islam if they wish to remain in Kashmir.
And what if they don't want to?
Oh yeah...the "peace-loving people of Jammu and Kashmir" will slaughter them mercilessly.
Well, except for the women. They'll keep THEM around as sex slaves.
You know...I really don't understand why they aren't thrilled at the prospect...
Susan, here are some points to answer your questions:
1. I do not think that Pakistan will stop
sponsoring Jihadi terrorism for political gains even if Kashmir becomes
independent (simply because it provides an unfair
leverage to it.)
2. You have to see what has happened in South Asia. Every muslim majority area has become an
'Islamic republic' e.g. Pakistan and Bangladesh .
but hindu majority areas are secular with a
strong seperation of temple and state e.g. India.
I fully support Indian secularism.
3. If Kashmir is allowed to become independent,
the hindu population from Jammu and Budhist population from Laddakh will come as refugees.
It will become an Islamic republic in time. The hindu
population declined in Pakistan significantly
after the partition and even fewer Sikhs survived in Pakistan.
4. Pakistan will eventually gain control of Kashmir just like Syria did in case of Lebanon
and will be an even greater strategic threat to
India.
5. India cannot undergo another partition based
on religion. No more 1947. It will leave another
divisive legacy.
Either India may not survive or
secularism may not survive (atleast not in their
present forms) While India's record on minorities is not spotless, it is the
best in South Asia and a lot better than most other
developing nations. I think it will get better
as India prospers economically. Also, only
3 million of 120 million Indian muslims live in
Kashmir. I think it is better to allow them to assimilate even further in society where they can
prosper. The 12% muslims have had a fair contribution in Indian society and Indian secularism is still their best hope. Finally what about other religious minorities : Sikhs (in Punjab),
christians (in Kerala and Mizoram) , budhists (in Ladakh) in places where they form
a majority. Independent country for them ?
Then what about linguistic minorities or ethnic minorities ? India is so diverse that everyone
can be considered a minority if he migrates to
another part.
6. Lastly, why ? Pakistan already has one third
of Kashmir. We are happy with the status quo.
We will not give any part of our country without losing a war. Just because Pakistan can use terrorism, it does not imply that we will succumb. It is important for India to stay united in order to prosper (otherwise it will become like parts of Africa and conflict will increase rather than decrease. ) Territorial
integrity is as important for India as its economic growth.
So, my question is why not status quo without terrorism ? We would rather figure out a way
to stay united and keep outsmarting terrorism
and have a breathing space to reduce poverty
in our country. Pakistan cannot risk a war either nor
can it risk destabilizing Indian secularism too
much but it will continue its game of targeted terrorism as long as it works.
India will be successful if it can grow
economically. Hopefully, Pakistan will then also focus on economic growth. Wishful thinking ? Perhaps. But what else can I do ?
One final point I will make to Susan is
that it perfectly easy to offer simplistic
in solutions or
be dismissive of other people's problems.
I can also offer simplistic solutions :
1. Why dont Americans get out of Iraq and
Afghanistan and Arabs stop terrorism.
2. Isnt it better for Israelis and palestinians
to live in peace ?
Unfortunately, these are not rooted in reality of
the way parties at dispute perceive things at present.
Naresh,
Actually, I know the answers you've given, I ask the question to see if any Muslims can be honest about the reason they fight for Kashmir, which is as you say, to install an Islamic Republic.
On other message boards it was quite interesting to see the answers that came forth.
Most, after circling the subject, finally in a back hand sort of way, would eventually say, because it has always been the plan to bring Kashmir into the Islamic world.
And you right, Kashmir would be better off under Indian rule.
And again your right on the record of human rights abuses in India, but lets be honest, we don't have a perfect record either, just better than most, both countries are 1000% better than in the Islamic states.
For the sake of the Kashmiry people, I for one hope that India wins out.
naresh c:
Excellent post. This is what I was talking about, the additional perspective that you can bring to these discussions. (I also happen to agree with you.)
Everyone has forgotten Mt.Casino we bombed it into nothing because the germans were useing the abby well there were over 500 monks and only 13 walked out in the end these Arabs are luckey we are not Moab-ing all over the country we have evedence that saddam was involed in the bombing the WTC in 1993 and good links so far on 9/11 so we can not hear the lies from the arabs. That we kill because we have no jobs that boat don't float!!!! they are luckey Bush is letting them have a choice life or death the choice is theirs we the American people are sick of their lies!!!
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the Course to Victory Amen
naresh c:
I agree that, on the surface, the term "the West" looks and sounds pretty narrow, but I've come to accept it as a class of convenient "short-hand" to embrace North America, Europe, their Allies and all of their associates.
Among these one has to number India, no doubt.
While Pakistan, for purely strategic reasons in the "War on Terror", is also counted under the heading, unless its President, General Musharaf, is TRULY the "Kemal Ataturk of Pakistan" - which he claims to be - then such status for Pakistan can only ever be temporary.
Some years back, when Pakistan tested its A-bomb, Australia's PM Howard rose in Parliament and said, inter alia, that Pakistan shouldn't be investing its limited resources into the pursuit of nukes because "it's a dirt-poor country".
I took this to be his "Paliamentary language" to express what my own personal impression of Pakistan (from a visit there decades ago) had been: a total shit-hole.
Beyond the rank stench and disgust of its teeming squalour and neglect, Pakistan was the first place in my travels in Asia in the early 1970s (including the predominantly Moslem nations of Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan) where the notion of an "Islamic State" was taken in earnest and (shockingly) where copies of the infamous, antisemitic forgery, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and of Hitler's "Mein Kampf" were openly for sale in every book-shop - in Urdu, Arabic and English editions.
(Additionally, they were available by the boxful from street-vendors on each corner there, in cities and small towns.)