Giuliani: N.Y. Never Warned About Attack

Crap like the repeated partisan outbursts from the liberal activists who have turned up among the victims' families is exactly why these hearings never should have taken place.

By now, I'm pretty sure everyone who's interested knows about all the miscellaneous things that went wrong that day. Nothing new is going to come out of further hearings.

They should put some of those activists on the witness stand and ask them what THEY would have done to prevent the attacks, in Bush or Giuliani's place.

I'm sure the silence would be deafening.

Folks:

You have to go to this link and watch these videos that Memri is now providing. They are monitoring Arab TV and providing translations. These videos just blow your mind totally.

Check it out:

http://memri.org/video/

lobo, wolf
good post
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

LOBO 91 (short for "lobotomy" no doubt") whines:

Crap like the repeated partisan outbursts from the liberal activists who have turned up among the victims' families is exactly why these hearings never should have taken place.

Duh?

You disgusting right-wing sh*tstain, YOUR side was the one blaming "the evil Clinton" HOURS after the attack, even though Dumbya had been in office for eight months.

Bush failed us, Ashcroft failed us, Cheney failed us. The airline industry with their lobbyist failed us.

THIS is why the Bush administration FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL to prevent the 911 investigation, why they stonewalled for MONTHS, why the ruined towers were immediately ship out for recycling, why Condi refused to testify, why Dubya can't testify without Cheney holding his hand, why Bush and Dick had SECRET testimonies, NOT under oath, with no record, no notes, no minutes, and NO CHANCE TO HAVE ANYONE ELSE FROM THE WHITEHOUSE testify.

Bush failed us by ignoring the warnings, plain and simple. Bush was focused on three things, and three things only: tax cuts for the rich, the Star Wars-style missile shield, and Saddam Hussein.

Ashcroft stopped flying commercial jets in July, 2001. I wonder why? Instead of fighting terrorists, HE was only focused on three things: Oregon's assisted suicied law, pornograpy, and marijuana.

Of course, just like an Arab Muslim, the soulless conservatives can NEVER admit any mistake (like Drunkya at the press conference)... being a conservative republican means never having to say you're sorry.

Shyeah dumbass, everybody's a liberal activist these days... if you oppose any part of the con-rep line of crap, you are a liberal activist.

I wonder why W was shown honoring the Brown v. Board of Education decision 50th anniversary... doesn't he realize that THAT was the result of a "lib-rul activist judge"?

And Catherine? Stop talking about God.

Keithjoy:

You disgusting right-wing sh*tstain, YOUR side was the one blaming "the evil Clinton" HOURS after the attack, even though Dumbya had been in office for eight months.

And who was in office when the hijackers slipped into the US unnoticed and carried out the planning and training of the attack?

As I recall, it was the same bunch who stood by and watched for 8 years as we were attacked over and over by the Jihadis.

I realize, of course, that they had more important things to worry about (collecting illegal contributions from monks, giving nuclear secrets to China, getting their leader his weekly penicillin shot to stave off all the STD infections, etc.), but they could have at least PRETENDED to care.

Bush failed us by ignoring the warnings, plain and simple.

I'm still waiting for someone to produce these so-called "warnings" of anything even remotely specific that someone could have made us of.

I believe the term currently en vogue is "actionable intelligence."

I noticed one interesting thing in your little rant: You, just like the other liberal activists, can't tell us ONE THING you would have done differently.

Why am I not surprised?

KEITHJOY:

Your political ideology notwithstanding, where do you stand on the Islamic Threat issue?

The fact of the matter is that the U.S. government did NOT do everything it could have protect Americans from 9/11. Bush's 8 months in office did nothing to acknowledge the threat just as Clinton's 8 years discounted it.

Political correctness, peddled by the left (and obidiently follwed by conservative governments as well), has replaced common sense in matters of American national security. Security will only be realised when the U.S. government decides to face the facts about the Islamic agenda and enact positive measures in the areas of immigration and social policy.

It is a clash of two hollow religons of thought control: islam and polical correctness.

Mentat:

It is an especially chilling, but one that clearly shows, for those who have eyes and ears, the enemy that threatens the world.

Thanks Mentat this will show why we have to win in Iraq. Did you read the ticker under on the Iranian show about the matrex, wow, thought they hated morden stuff. no wonder the imemons are haveing trouble with their young. They want more stuff. Big dady wont let them have it. As for the drugs don't they come from mulsum states or commy states? Thanks again

Part of the American Tribe

cgw do you think keithjoy is a terrorist sounds like their spin

Keithjoy

GOD BLESS the USA and her FIGHTING FORCES and All who FIGHT with her give them strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Part of the American Tribe

Sorry you hate America .
We love our Country go live in hell

Ekith Joy
Clinton did far less in combating jihadism than Bush.
Your leftist rantings are not based on fact.
If Clinton, a rhodes scholar could not go further in his thinking that "peace in Israel" was the panacea that would stop ME unrest, it was the reult of his left wing irrationality.
The vainness of this man who wanted to go down in History as " the man who brought peace to the ME " by providing a second home to Arafat in the white house ( the man who murdrered US ambassador NOEL) was worse even than the follies perpetrated by Carter.
He sacrificed American security by trying to portray terrorism as the actions of a few deranged individuals as is evident in the ramsi youssef attack in 1993 on WTC.
Why did he push this under the carpet ?
So keen was he to get Yassir to sign on the dotted that nothing lese mattered.
Bush inherited a boiling pressure cooker. It exploded during his round of duty. Sure he did'nt immediately spot the pressure valve, but at least he's done a hellofalot about it since,

All,

To be fair, both the Repubs and the Demos on this committee are grandstanding at asinine levels. This was NOT the kind of bipartisanship I was hoping for.

KeithJoy,

Time to burst some myths you’ve espoused.

Strike One: Airline lobbyists are union-oriented, and pro-democrat.

Strike Two: Yes it was true that Bush was in office for eight months. William Jefferson Clinton was in office eight years.

The first WTC bombing, the USS Cole bombing, and the chain of African embassy bombings all occurred on his watch, yet he turned down taking custody of Osama Bin Laden when he was taken into custody in Africa. I ask you for an honest, truthful answer: what steps did Clinton take to protect American interests, at home or abroad? Why did he let bin Laden go free?

I don’t want you to answer me with a DNC talking point, and I don’t want you to ignore the question. Please respond with a reasoned argument, citing facts as needed.

Strike Three: Ashcroft, at NO point, quit flying commercial aircraft. He flew commercially twice the week before 9/11.

Batter Two, Strike One: Active presidents and vice presidents do not testify in front of commissions. Bush is the second to waive that right in the entire history of the United States.

Batter Two, Strike Two: Where and when did Bush fight this commission “tooth and nail”? The fact is, it was president Bush who personally appointed members of this commission.

Batter Two, Strike Three: Two commission members that walked out more than an hour early in Bush’s interview. Care to address that issue?

Batter Three, Strike One: Condi did not refuse to testify. She testified longer than any other single witness. And she did it twice, so that Ben Viniste could get camera time by asking the exact same questions, again.

Batter Three, Strike Two: Bush has yet to cut taxes for the rich. All of his tax cuts have been for the middle and working class.

Batter Three, Strike Three: Before you start calling Bush Drunkya, make sure you give Teddy boy a Mentos.

AND THE SIDE IS RETIRED

Crusader Front:

The fact of the matter is that the U.S. government did NOT do everything it could have protect Americans from 9/11.

True, but only in the sense of what was technically possible (as opposed to politically acceptable).

Preventing groups of Middle Eastern terrorists from hijacking airliners would have been easy, from a technical standpoint: Tell all the airlines not to allow any Middle Eastern-looking people on their planes. Problem solved.

Of course, there wasn't a chance in hell that anyone would have given that order in the summer of 2001 (or even today, for that matter).

It's easy to look back and blame people for not "connecting the dots," but the reality is that no single person had enough dots in his or her possession prior to 9/11 to allow them to do more than punctuate a sentence.

It really saddens me to read that people were yelling at Guilliani. The other side - Islamicfascists - is blaming Bush and the U.S. for all the ills of the world. Why do we have such a difficult time placing blame where it belongs? What is our problem?

Where was the article on the secret meeting between a 9-11 man and one of Saddams men. I remember it being on jihadwatch but i can't remember the day.

The only blame for 9/11 is American Muslim community. The entire leadership of American Nazislam should be put up there and shot dead. Allowing subhuman cockaroaches to live in this country is a mistake. The systematic extermination of every Muslonazi shit needs to start immediately, or Americans are going to start taking it into their own hands. Death to American Islam!

Angry Infidel,

"The only blame for 9/11 is American Muslim community. The entire leadership of American Nazislam should be put up there and shot dead. Allowing subhuman cockaroaches to live in this country is a mistake. The systematic extermination of every Muslonazi shit needs to start immediately, or Americans are going to start taking it into their own hands. Death to American Islam!"

Thank you Adolf, for the intelligent, well-reasoned argument. You do realize that you sound EXACTLY LIKE THEM, don't you?

"Angry Infidel,

"The only blame for 9/11 is American Muslim community. The entire leadership of American Nazislam should be put up there and shot dead. Allowing subhuman cockaroaches to live in this country is a mistake. The systematic extermination of every Muslonazi shit needs to start immediately, or Americans are going to start taking it into their own hands. Death to American Islam!"

Thank you Adolf, for the intelligent, well-reasoned argument. You do realize that you sound EXACTLY LIKE THEM, don't you?"

Unfortunately, it is the actions of muslims that is to blame for polarising people to such extremes. Hatred and intolerance are the language and rhetoric of islam and what muslims practice throughout their world. It is what they understand best.

Actually, there are other deserving blame:

From NEWSMAX.COM:

Tuesday, May 18, 2004 11:28 p.m. EDT
Lehman: 9/11 Commission Eyeing Secret Clinton Video

The independent commission investigating the 9/11 attacks has examined a secret videotape of ex-President Clinton discussing an offer from Sudan to have Osama bin Laden arrested five years before the 9/11 attacks, former Navy Secretary and 9/11 Commissioner John Lehman revealed on Tuesday.

Asked if the never-before-seen video confirms that Clinton admitted turning the offer down, Lehman told radio host Sean Hannity, "Well, that is what he said."

The real blame is the monsters and all who support them.. This has awaken Americans and yes we still have some with sleep in their eyes . Today brought into the light with this sarin gas once again. the press are a bunch of chicken's not all but most. They see now what if all the people in the military decide not to fight for them to have their summer homes and boats what if? that is the ?
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and All who fight with her. Amen

Remember the alledged 'familes' who have 'dedicated observer' seats in congress are, for the most part, Democratic shrills from the likes of ANSWER. (Think Bergs father).

They should never have been given those observer seats and, according to their behavior, should lose their seats.

Unfortunately the comission is now so compromised that any report it produces will be useless for anything besides bird-cage liner (if even that).

Let's start at the bottom, shall we?

Catherine:

cgw do you think keithjoy is a terrorist sounds like their spin

Posted by Catherine at May 19, 2004 02:41 PM
Keithjoy

GOD BLESS the USA and her FIGHTING FORCES and All who FIGHT with her give them strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Part of the American Tribe

Sorry you hate America .
We love our Country go live in hell

Posted by Catherine at May 19, 2004 02:46 PM

Catherine, you non-English speaking slit, your side always accuses everyone to the left of David Duke of hating America. I do love America. I EARNED my right complain by serving in the US Marine Corps, under Reagan no less.

YOU go to hell, your side invented it. I know that hell is a fairy tale. Before you go off to live with Nixon, Mohamed, and Strom Thurmond, why don't you go live in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Iran? They are all conservatives there: minorities have no rights, there are no sniveling whining liberals, no ACLU, everyone is patriotic, God's law is taught in schools.... conservative paradise!

The problem in dealing with terrorist started long before Clinton or Bush.
Doesn't anyone remember the the 71 Olympics, the 3 airliners that were hijacked into Jordon, the bombings in Rome and London, Germany? The embassy bombings in Beruit, the Marine barracks bombings, the downing of Pan Am 103, the soldier killed and thrown off a plane, the old man thrown off the cruise ship and on and on.
This problem has been going on since the late 60"s early 70"s and NO President or world leader has EVER really addressed the problem for what it really is.
Everyone has been happy to lay the blame for all this on the so called Palastinian Comflict. It's easier to do that than to actually come out and say that we are under attack from radical Islamists that want to install their form of relgion on the rest of the world and NO ONE is ever going to admit that for 20+ years our world leaders have had their heads in the sand.
And thats the real reason why everyone was totally unprepared for what happened on 9-11.
No president thought this would ever happen here, none, democrat or republican, it was always "that problem over there".
To try to lay blame is ridiculous unless your willing to go back to the very begining of all this and then it still can only be laid at the feet of the groups that commit these atrocities.
These hearings are a waste of time.

KillJoy~ Conservative paradise? I think NOT. If you think it is.... you aren't thinking. That's you in a NUTshell.

Why am I not surprised?

Lube-o:

Because you are a dumbass, that's why. You con-reps LOOOVE to pretend that Jihadi terror started when Clinton took office; it didn't. Perhaps you have never heard of Sirhan Sirhan? Or how's about Beirut? Reagan's bungle killed 241 US Marines, but no big deal to you. Reagan was a con-rep, so he MUST be "pro-troop" and "patriotic."

Jihadis attack WTC in '93, they all were caught and went to jail... FOR LIFE. Jihadis attack Khobar Towers in '96, they were all caught and BEHEADED. Jihadis attack embassies in Africa in '98, Clinton starts bombing AlQaeda holdings, con-reps make him stop. Jihadis bomb USS Cole, Clinton, who leaves office weeks later, decides to let Bush handle it. Little did Clinton know that Bush wouldn't have time.

Admit it: Bush only cared about terror after 911. Name FIVE things Bush did to fight terror before 911.... I have never even found a con-rep that could name one thing, but name five. Bush was only interested in Star Wars, tax cuts for the rich, and Hussein.

What did Reagan do when jihadis killed our Marines in Lebanon? Invade Grenada. Later he, Bush, and Ollie rewarded the Jihadis with planeloads of Stinger Missiles. Meanwhile pig f*cking jihadi Marinekillers laugh and dance in the street, saying "Two martyrs defeated the entire United States Marine Corps!"

How about the discotheques in Germany? What did Reagan do about that? Lockerbie, Scotland... sound familar? He killed Gadhafi'd daughter? Big deal. He probably has fifty daughters.

Bush Sr. sends the troops to the jihadi quagmire Somalia, but when they die (weeks later) under Clinton's term, you blame Clinton and demand that he bring the troops home. "Clinton destroyed the US military" you cry, the same military that Bush used to win two wars... and aren't you the same crowd that held Clinton responsible when Bush's ATF bombed Waco? Oops. Nevermind.

You make your determination based SOLELY on whether an (-R) or (-D) comes after the name, plain and simple.

Remember the terrorist attacks on Seattle and LA during the Y2K celebration? How about the 15 American passenger planes blown up over the Pacific that year? No, you don't, because they were THWARTED. Thank you, President Clinton. You see, Clinton really did have more important things to care about.

Another con-rep myth... selling nuclear secrets to China? Goddam! I wonder how Ken Starr (R-Tobacco) missed that? Gee! Oh, wait, the con-rep answer is: Ken Starr was ON Clinton's side... yeah. Kind of like, "Vince Foster was killed by Clinton because he was doing Hillary" .... then later it's "Hillary is a lesbian!"

The warnings? Did you just read the article on which we were to be commenting, or do you just go straight for the comments box to whine about lib'ruls? Quote from Jihad Watch: "The Aug. 6, 2001, intelligence briefing for President Bush referred to evidence of buildings in New York possibly being cased by terrorists. It mentioned New York or the World Trade Center three times."

Duh? And the briefing was called "Bin Laden determined to strike in US." But don't worry, Condi spun it all away...

I am reasonable... I can see how maybe ONE plane could have gotten away. But after the first plane hit the WTC, there should have been fighter jets up and ready to bomb the others. At least one WTC tower could have been saved, and probably 1800 lives.

But Goddam, even one plane? Given the warning (see above) about Bin Laden, AS SOON as the first plane went off course, they should have gotten fighter jets after it. But, according to you and Rudy,"... there were terrible mistakes made, but let's not fight each other."

Translation: "Reasonable people won't blame Clinton for this, so let's just forget about it."

Heeeeere's the list of what I would have done differently:

1) Take seriously Gore's plan in 1996 to put locking doors on all commercial jet planes. (It was shot down by the airline industry's lobbyist, who DO NOT work for the unions, but for the shareholders and owners, dumbass.

2) Not whine and whine when Clinton started bombing Alqaeda after the embassy attack.

3) Not let the Washington Times leak, just after the embassy bombings, that we knew Osama used satellite phones. (Just prior to that Russia killed a major Chechyn jihadi by homing in on his satellite phone signal. When Osama read the Times that day, he stopped using his satellite phone... and his trail went dead. Thank you, Washington Times.)

4) Take seriously the increased level of terrorist "chatter" and warnings from the Intell Agencies of Israel, Germany, and Russia that "something big" was coming.

5) Not take a month-long vacation (especially after only 6 months of "work") during the high level of terrorist chatter.

6) Not ignored the daily briefing entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in the US" ... which mentioned New York's WTC THREE TIMES!!!

7) Not gone back to reading to 3rd graders after being told that WE were under attack!! Can any con-rep out there explain THIS to me?

8) I would have held Saudi Arabia responsible, instead of kissing their dirty jihadi asses. They financed 911, they raised and educated (indoctrinated) 15 of the highjackers, they financed the madrassas in Pakistan that trained up the Taliban. Instead, Bush holds big Ramadan "feasts" for them, right after 911. F that bullsh*t.

Wake up, people. This shouldn't be a place to whine about politics. Go to www.freerepublic.com for that. Don't you know that James Baker works for the Saudis in the lawsuit brought by the families of 911 victims? W tried to appoint Kissinger to the LEAD the 911 investigation, but the families MADE him quit after he REFUSED to reveal who his clients are ... I wonder who they are? Obviously, Saudis.

Let's talk about Jihad, dhimmmis, etc. But save your assinine, predictable, anti-lib'rul blather for another weblog. Robert Spencer, can you please reign in your trolls and remind them that this is not about politics?

Liberals aren't the only appeasers... just look how W has gone out of his way to be nice to the Saudis & co. Why don't you try to rationally convince other liberals (as I always do) that Jihad is a serious threat, instead of the same old crap, "Lib'ruls hate America! Lib'ruls are the enemy! Hitlery loves Muslims! Ted Kennedy is a drunk! Oink! Oink! Oink!"

I hate jihadis and I love this site. I will be coming here every day. And I won't let you crapbaskets whine about liberals. We are supposed to be whining about Jihadis.

Alright, who's next?

But Gary, that is a conservative paradise:

No whining from minorities.
Women "know their place."
No aboritons.
Instant capital punishment.
No appeals courts.
Everyone's a patriot.
God's law runs the courts.
God's law is taught in schools.
No ACLU or Saudi/Pakistani/Iranian version.
No "lib'rul activist judges."
Plenty of guns.
Preachers control everything.
Religion is in charge of everything.
No homer-sexuals or other misfits.
Religion controls the press.
No PETA, NOW, NAACP, or IRS.

See? Conservative paradise.

Dear all of you:

Long live the Islam and Long live the Muslims.

U hate that! I know it and I don´t care.......

KEITHJOY:

I think you confuse conservative with totalitarian (yes there is a difference you know). Islamists in the countries you named force total subjugation of the individual to the state, or islam - one in the same in that case.

Conservatives are in favour of small government, remember? Conservatives generally wish to honor the traditions of their culture in their own home, neighborhood, city, or nation. That only conflicts with rights of the minority when they are not allowed to do the same (i.e. any indigenous Christians living in the muslim world). Unless you subscribe to the belief the rights of the majority are to be respected as long as they don't 'offend' the minority?

Conservatives want 'God's law taught in schools? Really. The only thing I can think of that you can base that statement on is the debate of evolution vs. creationism, a bit silly if you ask me. Or are you referring to the 'under God' in the pledge? That is an affirmation of the principles on which the United States was founded.

Which brings me to my next point...Whether you like it or not, the United States was conceived on the foundation of the Christian tradition, as was most of Europe from whence the majority of American settlers came. Say it with me: the majority of people in the United States are Christians and have the right to maintain their tradition as the majority. Does that mean that atheists, Jews, muslims, and everyone else must suffer under the Christian majority? Of course not. Amendment I: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...". The U.S. has never had, nor ever will (unless you know who takes over) a state sponsored religion. You have the freedom to practice, or not practice, any faith you want. Conservatives don't want to change the first amendment. They simply want the minority to respect the Christian tradition of the majority. As long as there are liberals who take offense at any public display of that tradition, there will be contention.

Political correctness leads to totalitarianism my friend. That is the real enemy of freedom, not conservatism.

And give Catherine a break. Sure her points don't always make a lot of sense, but while you and I might think it's a bit absurd for Catherine to write 'God bless' and 'Amen' all over her messages, at least you can respect her point of view without denigrating her faith.

Yeah, Bob Owens, if Newsmaxx reported it, and if Hannity backed it up, IT MUST BE TRUE. Just like "Hillary is a lesbian" and "Clinton is selling Arlington graves" and "Clinton fathered a crack baby."

As for your childish "three outs" argument, I answered most of you points already, like what did Clinton do to combat terror, etc. See my answer to lobo-tomy 91. And I did so without any talking points.

And now, about the 9-11 commission being stalled by Bush and friends...... just answer me this, why are we just now seeing the commission in the news? Why didn't it convene on 9-12-01? The Bush admin. did fight it every step of the way. You can say they didn't just like you will probably say that Strom Thurmond wasn't a racemixing rapist. (Insert Juanita Broderick lie here.)

Condi stalled for weeks before political reality set in and Rove ordered her to testify. You can say that its not so, but most of us remember what happened, it wasn't so long ago.

President don't testify before commissions. And planes don't fly into buildings in New York either. Why SHOULDN'T Bush and Dick have to testify, under oath? Do you think they are hiding something? Clinton had to testify, under oath, about a BJ. His attourneys had to testify. His Secret Service bodyguards had to testify. Over a BJ?

Bin Laden the most famous Muslim, Arab, wealthy mujahadeen was taken into custody in Sudan? The same Sudan hellhole run by Muslim, Arab, wealthy mujahadeens? Hello? Does that sound logical to you? And the Sudanese government tried to give him to us, the "Great Satan"? You're kidding, right? (If only.) Can you name one sane person to back that claim up?

Bush is a confessed drunk, an unrepentant drunk driver, and an absentee parent. He REFUSED to answer questions about cocaine use. Cheney also has TWO DUI CONVICTIONS to his record. Ah, but who cares? Monkey wants to talk about Ted Kennedy. Let's talk about Laura Bush, too... did you know she killed her first fiancee in a car wreck. Oh, no big deal you say... she's a republican.

None of Bush's tax cuts have been for the rich? Alright, either you or Bush and Rush are lying. They say there's nothing wrong with tax cuts for the rich, that it was fine for W to do so.

I think I just hit 9 grand slams. (That's when bases are loaded and a home run is hit, resulting in four points.)

Bob, try to think clearly.

Loblow, you dumbass. Don't you know that some Middle Easterners don't look Middle Eastern?

Keith, when the time comes, you better Hope we are still here to defend you. 'Cause I don't think the guys who saw your head off will be listening to your whimpering 'I didn't know any better!'

davo:

Clinton DID go further... he bombed Alqeada in the Sudan and Afghanistan. And thwarted the major terror attacks planned for us around 12-31-99.

This COULD put me in my place: just tell me three things W did to fight terror prior to 9-11.

Bush is "...trying desparately to portray terrorism as the actions of a few deranged individuals as evident in ..."

1) the Ramadan feasts for the Arabs after 911,

2) letting a muslim preacher speak first at the 911 memorial service, and

3)saying "Islam is peaceful and tolerant."

So why don't you every whine about Bush?

Why did Bush push the capture of Bin Laden and the rest of AlQaeda under the carpet? Oh yeah, Saddam was making nukes and JUST ABOUT to attack the US of A.

So keen is Bush to keep the Saudis happy that nothing else matters.

Bush inherited a boiling pressure cooker and ... was so focused on tax cuts, Saddam, and the Missile Shield that he let our real security needs lapse into a "faith based" program. Arab Muslims were learning to fly but not land airplanes, terror "chatter" was at an all-time high, and Bush's OWN STAFF were handing him memos entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in the US" that mentioned the WTC three times as a potential terror target, but Bush STILL took August off from his demanding schedule of meals and naps.

Try again Davo, and proofread your rants.

Now that you wingnuts have gotten a size 13 combat boot to the ass, are you ready to HELP me convince other liberals that jihad is a serious threat? Or do you just want to keep trying to lie and whine about Kerry, Clinton, and Al Sharpton?

When will you fools realize that jihadis are your enemy, not liberals? (Hopefully before you realize that jihadis are conservative.)

Gary, I don't need defending by little sissies like you. I can defend myself. I learned from the best. If anyone does come around to "get me" it will be fools like you. If you do, you'd better hope that your head is smaller than an apple at 100 yards.

I'm not like most liberals. Mark Twain said "A liberal is a man that won't take his own side in an arguement." That's not me, beee-yotch. If I see any jihadis or militiamen (what's the difference?) prowling around my homestead, they'll be going home to mullah in a cardboard box.

Now, for the inevitable slew of challenges to my having served in the Marine Corps, if anyone writes, they better be able to prove that they served too. Yes, I luckily got in and did four without war. But I signed up just after Beirut in '83, and no one knew what was coming then. Especially with President Bonzo in charge. I may not check back here, look for me in a more recent comment.

Now I have to get over to democracynow and try to set those f*cking hippies straight about Israel and "palestine."

Your fellow anti-jihadi,

Keithjoy

PS... can't we all just get along?

By the way, Gary, that time won't come, because when we see Europe fall, we will probably wake up then.

First off, instead of now looking as to reasons why 9/11 happened, they should be looking how to safeguard the city better. Why bother putting people on the hotseat, it's not going to bring back anyone who was killed that day. I understand people want answers but I really don't think we will ever learn the truth, I'm sure Bush and his administration knew of the attacks. One of the news channels were saying that intelligence had gotten threats prior to 9/11 but since we get threats all the time, they did not look past it. Okay, that's where they are wrong and they should have gotten their asses in gear and done something about it, but, what about every threat we get every day, millions of them, they don't have the man power needed so of course, brush it off as just another empty threat. One would hope now more action will be taken in order to prevent another terrorist on American soil. I liked Giuliani in office. I think he was a good mayor, much better than Dinkins! Giuliani wasn't afraid to take on the mob, crime rate went down during his term and he really cared about NY and the people who live here. The minute those towers were hit, where was Bush? In Fl. Giuliani was out in public on the streets, he went to numerous funerals the weeks after the attacks, he broke down a few times and whenever he spoke, you could tell he was affected, you could feel the emotion in his face and the anger he felt. Bush was anger as well but I guess being a NY myself, I wanted to see how our Mayor would handle things and to me he did a great job. Of course no one was found from side, friends or family that's probably becuase their bodies were blown away in pieces. I don't rest until Bin Laden is dead with everyone who follows him. He might think he won or taught us a lesson, that son of a bitch has another thing coming. I know someone in the service who is currently looking for Bin Laden and he even told me, Bush said dead or alive, they plan on dead, there's no reason to keep him alive.

Being someone who lost people that day, I can understand the outbursts but I think they were wrong for doing that. They shoudl have respect for those speaking whether they believe what they're saying or not, the commission is stupid for allowing family members to be present.

kiethjoy you are starting to sound like a friggin nutjob. hurling accusations is a favored leftist communist tactic. as for hanity i watch for the balance that alan colmbs provides. where do you get your news from micheal moore documentaries? do you learn history from chompsky? do you go to anti-war protest and carry signs supporting theocratic regimes? these are all the things i see coming from the left. who you going to vote for flip flop kerry? i'll vote for bush because its a vote against kerry. if the dems wanted to win they would have nominated someone who wasn't a rabid america hater. someone whose wife doesnt help fund groups like move on. i used to be a libertarian till i started getting commie propoganda, gay rights stuff, open borders stuff, anti christian literature and a whole lot more in my mail. you can call me conservative if you want i just want an america like my parents grew up in. my change from uber liberal started with billy boy saying he didnt inhale [i hate liars]after that i voted perot till 2000 which i voted bush. why you say? well it seems democratic candidates are so rabidly anti-gun i find it un american. [btw i dont currently OWN a gun]as for some hate being spewed by a few here occassionaly most regular posters shout them down. try going through the archives and read the posts that go back to oct 2003. read past stuff before you jump on and start slamming people without reading all that they wrote. as for rush i listen to him occasionally in the car not because i agree with everything he says but because unlike the left he takes all calls not just those supporting his ideology

Keithjoy ,
been there done that and gald to be in this Great country of these United States. Guess you lost your way and still hate America in her beauty sorry for you.

Part of the American Tribe

God bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the Course to Victory Amen

keithjoy
http://www.newsmax.com/audio/BILLVH.mp3 hear with your own ears ! if you don't like what you hear to bad that is the facts man!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give her strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

I would like to say something, let me first say that I do not hate Muslims, but I do not appreciate it when I'm told I need to be educated on Islam in order to fully understand the religion. I'm not going to sit here and attack it, mainly because it's not worth fighting with people on the internet..I must agree with what JGK has said, those that do claim to be followers of Allah and then do something evil does put a great concern into the rest of us that are watching. Now I've read in different threads this evening that the 9/11 terrorists and others cannot call themselves Muslims and followers of Islam because violence is not tolerated (I'm paraphasing things I've read) and Allah would never want that. It's not convert and die as they would have us believe, am I correct to a point? Okay, but please understand this, even though you say all of his, most of us will not listen for the simple reason, we have seen many acts of violence in the name of Allah, we have heard of abuse of women by their husbands especially in Saudi Arabi under the Sharia, and to have someone sit there and defend their beliefs so earnestly is honorable with one thing, if you know that no matter what you say it is going onto deaf ears, why waste your time? I've also read somewhere on here that we are being called to Islam and our grandchildren will be Muslim, first off, our grandchildren will not be Muslim, they will be whatever we are, myself Christian as my daugther is, and if you are not trying to convert us then why sit there and say you're trying to call to us Islam? I wish I could remember who said this and on what thread but I'm sorry I can't. I know Muslims want to be respected but some of you need to respect others first before you can ask for respect. Some of the posts are just down right nasty as hell and it does not show peace! Everyone is supposed to behave as their God wants them to and some are not, Muslim, non Muslim it doesn't matter. Of course not everyone believes in God and their posts reflect that but those that do, you need to speak with pride and intelligence and respect for yourself, others and your faith. When you don't, it proves the point that you are not worth anyone's time and I'M NOT NAMING ANY NAMES NOR POINTING SPECIFIC FINGERS AT ANYONE as I'm not here to cause problems and start yet another fight in this thread. Also, a note about 9/11 as I see that was a very hot topic, it cannot be forgotten especially for those who lived it. It wasn't right but any unnecessary killing isn't right, in times of war though it's sad to say that it will and does happen. Even though it cannot be proven 100% that the hijackers were in fact Islamic that is what we are led to believe. I dont think anything can change that view. We are a nation filled with great hatered for the Middle East for what is being taught about the West. There are those countries that just hate us no matter what and I think it's more because of the freedoms we posses and they do not. Parents are teaching their children to hate us, destroy us and we are supposed to sit back and allow this to continue? We must go and fight for our country. We went in and took out Saddam, keep in mind he and his regime did many harsh, cruel things to the Iraqi people and without us coming in, he would still be in power to this day as he had his entire country scared shitless of him. After we do this, we then are photographed abusing Iraqi detanees, prisoners, yeah, that was a bright idea. I don't agree with this treatment, however, two wrongs do not make a right. Killing Nick Berg has not fixed the problem, having national media coverage of these acts is having an effect. When are terrorists going to learn, we don't listen to threats? No, we don't want any person killed by our enemies but we also aren't going to bow our heads to these people, get on our knees and give them whatever the hell they want! If we did, we would not be the country we are today, faults and all. So in saying all of this, either people are going to respect one another or you will die alone and miserable because the more you attack and disrespect it just proves how miserable a person you really are. No trying to convert those who do not wish to be converted. And if you're on this site and you know this site is against Islam, you need to keep in mind, no matter what you say, no one will listen. I'm not trying to be rude, just upfront.

To me it doesn't pay to throw insult to insult no one will listen anyway, we'll just fly right past it. You will be more intelligent and better than those who do not have enough of a vocabulary to not stoop to their levels.

annie
have read the koran the sunnah or any of the many ahadith? i refer to them as unholy books because i was raised in the christian tradition and have read the bible cover to cover more than once. after reading the books that islam is based on my only conclusion is that it is evil. they are the polar opposite of the bible. i also go by what muslim clerics and leaders say. do i hate muslims? NO i dont i do feel they have been misled and brainwashed though. do i want to convert them to a different religion? NO imho the belief in god is a personal thing. the troll you reffered to is reza. he posts his garbage on other blogs and he is somewhere here in the us. am i guilty of kneejerk posting some nasty remarks? YES i have. if you want to read the books on islam in chronological order try prophetofdoom.com\ however be forewarned it is 1000 pages long and is full of commentary by the site author who imho is an evangelistic christian.

Keith,

I may not agree with your political views, but there was one thing in all that you said that has merit - let's try not to fight with each other and fight the jihadi's instead.

I hear the anger you express about feeling that others, conservatives, see you as a potential enemy, and that has got to hurt - especially since you have served the U.S. proudly in the Marines. That's Ok as far as I can see it, but can I ask one small thing? Could you please tone it down just a smidge? It is difficult to read through the anger and all and to want to listen to everything you have to say.

Of course, I am not telling you to do this, only asking.

thanks

Wow, Keithjoey,
Your good at farting out of both ends.
Get focused.

Oh, and before Keith comes back on and flames me for saying what I said to him and not talking to my side of the fence, I have to say he has a point. Some of you guys do go a bit overboard at times in your attacks of one another. Let's strive to be a bit more careful of how we communicate so that our points don't get lost in pointless ad hominem attacks. Thank you.

FUCK Israel!

Curious how Bush is going to back up his friend Sharon this time...

Keith~ We should focus on the Jihadists? Wow, is there a site devoted to that?

Oh yes. This site. I can't help it if the liberal thinkers and politicians are, wittingly or unwittingly, providing a second front in the war Against freedom.

Can't help it that the Millenium Bomber was caught crossing the border by Alert Agents, not because of some security measure that virturally Everyone who testified (save the Clintonistas) says was Not in place.

Can't help it that Clinton launched expensive missles into an aspirin factory, an empty training camp, a building who's sole occupant late at night was a janitor.

Can't help that there appears to be a videotape now, showing Clinton Turning Down an opportunity to have Bin Laden turned over to us.

Anyone else wish to continue the ETCs? there's a Lot of them.

This quote is from Bin Laden's Letter To America:

"You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women."

These quotes are from the Koran, regarding paradise:

"Reclining upon the couches lined with silk brocade, and the fruits of the Gardens will be near at hand. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Wherein will be those houris, restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse before. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? In beauty they are like rubies and coral."
(Koran 55:54-59)

"...We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand."
(Koran 56:37-40)

"And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls."
(Koran 76:19)

Keithjoy: Sirhan Sirhan was an Eastern Orthodox Christian, not a Muslim.

Re what Giuliani said, one thing that would have made catching any of the people casing buildings was that "stop and frisk" laws are usually suspect to American courts. Also, all those suspicious characters been rounded up in August, you could bet your last nickel that the liberals who so hate Bush today would be up in arms about discrimination and arresting people on unfounded charges.

The way the Democrats have exploited New York's grief and have run the hearings on 9/11 (with a clear conflict of interest case in Jamie Gorelick sitting on the commission when she was one of the people who ensured a nearly watertight wall between foreign intelligence and domestic criminal investigation during her tenure in Clinton's Justice Department) is why they'll have to catch Bush with his hand in the till and in flagrante with a 10-year-old before I'll vote for the Democrats this time.

In several states, ten teachers were suspended for showing the Nick Berg video to kids in class, telling them "...this is why we shouldn't be in Iraq." Did anyone else see this story on Fox News?

Actually, Clinton had nothing to do with thwarting the millenium attack at LAX. It was an alert border agent...

The guy with the ponytail who disrupted yesterday's hearings, (Guiliani's testimony), was not one of the 9/11 family members. He is known to the reporters as "Guiliani obsessed." Apparently, he and Guiliani are well known to each other and have a history of issues for years. The ponytailed guy had been arrested some years back and has stalked Rudy ever since. He is a professional activist.

All the dialog in the hearings are nice, fine and will doubtless spur growth on LOTS of vegetables...since it is just what it smells like!
Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20, we ALWAYS know what we should have,could have,would have done were things perfect...I'm afraid I go with Rooseveldt and his speech at the Sorbanne.
Not one of the jackasses in the hearings got so much as a glass splinter in his knees; or a cut on his paper-shuffling little butt helping anyone @ 9-11.
I am a former paramedic, let me tell you, MCI's are ALWAYS chaotic, trying and LOTS of stuff happens that could happen better. Try watching an ALert 1 training mock up at your local airport, then multiply that by 1,000,000 times for 9-11.
In short, don't listen too closely to the pencil necks debating for six weeks or six months the route taken to the disaster, the radio problems, or the other details...remember instead the grunts,the knuckle-dragger glowworms, smokeaters and flatfeet who worked, coughed on the dust, cut fingers, legs and bruised fingers pulled muscles and sometimes died.
Better yet, appreciate them, learn from the mistakes without blame and honor them by making certain we never have to do something like this again!

Sorry I missed all the love shared on this thread last evening. This post caught my attention and I wanted to address it: Dear all of you:

Long live the Islam and Long live the Muslims.

U hate that! I know it and I don´t care.......

Posted by Mahmoud at May 19, 2004 07:25 PM

You see Mahmoud, regretfully, the fact is that no matter what civilized people try to explain to uncivilized people, there are always going to be cults that present themselves on this planet.

Right now, the cult of Islam is rearing its head, creating chaos all around the world. Obviously, by your post, this is something that you either enjoy, or something you feel is necessary to further the needs and goals of the Islamic cult.

Its been demonstrated, mostly on a daily basis at this point, that Islam offers nothing positive to society. The statement made that you don't care if any of us are bothered by your statement is a perfect indicator of the Islamic mindset, that nothing matters but Islam.

Islam, like the rest of the cults in the world, will be taken down by a far more advanced, and far more intelligent society, societies that Islam frantically attempts to infest, mass breed, and mass migrate, as it aims toward world domination. Islam is vile, and it is racist, as non-Muslims have been labeled Islamophobic, racists, infidels, and the Great Satan.

God didn't put everyone on earth so they would be under anyone's laws but his own, and man's laws, which have been designed to be peaceful. Islam is not peaceful. I don't feel that God ever had it in mind for diapers to be worn on our heads, or for women to be covered up. I don't believe that God had it in mind that Sharia law should be in place anywhere, as it's already in place down in Hell.

Hopefully, Muslims will wake up and realize that they lack the skills and influence to overthrow the American Government, and make America a better place by either obeying American Constitutional law, or moving back to a land with no fertile soil, unbearable heat, and their beloved Sharia law, which degrades women far worse than America or any free society ever could.

Sharia law, where it's acceptable to rape, beat, and molest, steal and kill. If Muslims want to live like barbarians, they won't succeed here in America, we have laws against that. This isn't the jungle, and this isn't the wild kingdom. This is civilized society. Therefore, get civilized, or get out.

KEITHJOY:

"cgw sez:

Your political ideology notwithstanding, where do you stand on the Islamic Threat issue?

Posted by CGW at May 19, 2004 02:30 PM

Do you have any more pithy little questions?

Posted by: KEITHJOY at May 19, 2004 07:11 PM"

Wow, such hostility! I asked a sincere question. You were obviously in "attack mode" and I don't think I've said anything on this forum that should have put me in your sights.

That being said, I think that you paint us all with too broad a brush. Yes, there are some here that express their political beliefs in a manner every bit as vitriolic as you just did, and for those so open, you are definitely in the minority politically. But I believe that the vast majority of posters and habitual visitors to this site are more moderate - it's the extremists on both ends of the political spectrum that are usually the most vocal. Many of us are just listening and learning, and a fresh perspective is necessary and welcome. We are not a monolithic group by any means, but I agree with paula's posts:

"Keith,

I may not agree with your political views, but there was one thing in all that you said that has merit - let's try not to fight with each other and fight the jihadi's instead.

I hear the anger you express about feeling that others, conservatives, see you as a potential enemy, and that has got to hurt - especially since you have served the U.S. proudly in the Marines.
Posted by: paula at May 20, 2004 01:56 AM

Oh, and before Keith comes back on and flames me for saying what I said to him and not talking to my side of the fence, I have to say he has a point. Some of you guys do go a bit overboard at times in your attacks of one another. Let's strive to be a bit more careful of how we communicate so that our points don't get lost in pointless ad hominem attacks. Thank you.

Posted by: paula at May 20, 2004 04:33 AM"

Lastly, I couldn't BE more in agreement with your statements about how we're all in this together and that we must stand together to fight this threat. I don't know how you expect the "con-reps" to convince liberals, however, as the two sides can rarely convince each other of anything. Less politics, fewer ad hominem attacks, and more focus on the real message of the true threat that we face will help, at least in this forum. Make no mistake - some of those who may disagree with you politically still value your contribution as an anti-jihadist. We need you and that need only becomes greater as the threat becomes more immediate.

Just in off the conservative news forum
God bless the Brits GO for it US!
051904 0635pm
OUTNUMBERED British soldiers killed 35 Iraqi attackers in the Army’s first bayonet charge since the Falklands War 22 years ago. The fearless Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders stormed rebel positions after being ambushed and pinned down.

Despite being outnumbered five to one, they suffered only three minor wounds in the hand-to-hand fighting near the city of Amara.

The battle erupted after Land Rovers carrying 20 Argylls came under attack on a highway.

After radioing for back-up, they fixed bayonets and charged at 100 rebels using tactics learned in drills.

Charge ... tactics from drills

When the fighting ended bodies lay all over the highway — and more were floating in a nearby river. Nine rebels were captured

Frankie and Keith Joy

First of all Frankie, I thought you were the one who said Americans were ignorant and rude and here you are using profanity with no argument or point contained in your latest rant. Good luck when the jihadists take over Amsterdam.

Keith Joy

I can appreciate someone who thinks differently. I am a conservative Democrat in the vane of Joe Lieberman or the Late Governor Bob Casey. However, your arguments are confusing. You talk smack like the Jim Rome Show and yet you think Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich is going to keep this country safe from terrorists. Those guys mean well but they are naive and in Kucinich's case flakes. You talk about the Marine Corps and then you go on some sort of anti-religious rant. I know they didn't teach you that in the Corps. You claim to be a proud Marine and yet you have trouble with God's authority. What's up with that?

How do you propose to increase social spending as liberals propose yet keep defense spending high, as you say you are not fooled by America's enemies. You claim to be a liberal yet you seem angry at everyone. I like people that think differently but you make little sense. Is this some sort of liberal prank to come across as being tough to counter the views of the other liberal Joseph? At least he is courteous and has consistent views even if I don't agree with him.

God bless Bush!!
The U.S. army bombed another wedding party in Iraq..killing children and innocent people..

Part of the Dutch Tribe
God Bless the Netherlands and her fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Frankie Knuckles:

The U.S. army bombed another wedding party in Iraq..killing children and innocent people.

And morons like you continue to lap up the lies of the Jihadis...

I realize that they do things differently in that part of the world, but don't you see anything suspect in the claim that a "wedding party" was taking place at 2:45 am in a remote area of the desert near the Syrian border?

Not to mention the large cache of weapons that was recovered by US troops following the strike...

lobo91:

You forgot to mention that the "wedding guests" fired at the Coalition aircraft as they flew overhead ... that's how the "party" was discovered.

lobo91:

Please remember, not everybody possesing a non-American passport is one of the Jihadis..

And not all news other then American news is Jihad propaganda.. In my country we prefer to see and hear the story from both sides..

(Maybe I can email you some pics of those wounded kids that were so threatening that they had to be bombed by your army?)

(Don't you people see that websites like these only show one side of the story?? Your side?? Or is that what you people just want to read?? Nothing on the Israel bombing from yesterday, Nothing on the "wedding" bombing, nothing on your soldiers giving thumbs up next to dead and naked prisoners..)

So wrong....

CGW:

you can call it uncivilized...thats what I would call it...but people there shoot in the air when celebrating..not only at weddings..they do that at several occasions..thats called cultural differences..maybe you can compare it with your cowboys from back then, shooting around all the time..or is that just in those Western movies?

frankie knuckles:

Before long the "fighting forces" of the Netherlands are going to be a bunch of guys with long beards and swords ...

Sheesh....another ostrich...sites like this exist and thrive because the mainstream media in the U.S. and Europe, not to mention the completely one-sided Arab news agancies refuse to demonstrate any wrongdoing of any kind by any Arab.

Get a clue. A more realistic approach would be prudent. How stupid, and just plain ignorant can someone be to fire off guns in the middle of a warzone?

Correction: agencies. The rest of the post is dead-on accurate.

Frankie Knuckles:

I notice you avoided responding to the question I raised regarding the plausibility of the claim that this was a "wedding party" in the first place.

I wonder why?

As usual, KEITHJOY runs the gamut of range of Democratic talking points, from A to B, augmented by personal attacks when he lacks facts or even logic to support his claims.

“I EARNED my right complain by serving in the US Marine Corps, under Reagan no less.”

So, those of us who did not serve in the military do not have the right to comment? We’ve heard it from John Kerry. Just because you make an effective parrot of his ideas, it doesn’t mean your right to free speech is any more valid than that of anyone else.

Susan G makes the point that, “The problem in dealing with terrorist [sic] started long before Clinton or Bush.”

I agree.

Modern Islamic fundamentalism, what we also know as “radical Islam,” got it roots in the late 1970s and came to power – you guessed it – under Democratic leadership. Carter was impotent during the 444 days of the Iranian hostage standoff, which was America’s first real encounter with this emerging brand of “mainstream radical” Islam. All of America’s presidents have had their collective heads in the sand, right up until Bush 43. Reagan got the hostages out of Iran, but bailed on the Marines in Lebanon. Bush Sr. got Saddam out of Kuwait, though at the time the rising Taliban was well off the radar. Islamic attacks against U.S. interests really came into their own under Clinton’s leadership, however, and that is why he bears the responsibility and the blame for much of what is shaping our world today.

During Clinton’s eight years in office (1992-2000), we had the following attacks:

World Trade Center (1993)
Khobar Towers (1996)
East African embassy bombings (1998)
USS Cole bombing (2000)

Clinton’s greatest failure, and one born out by his own statements and members of the Justice Department (including the written words of Janet Reno and one Jamie Gorelick), was the fact that Clinton felt terrorism was a matter for the police and judiciary, not one of military intervention.

Clinton put several terrorists in jail for the first WTC attacks, but had nothing at all to do with the Khobar Towers incident, so I’m not sure how KEITHJOY thinks he can give Clinton credit for a Kuwaiti solution to the problem. In revenge for the east African embassy bombings, Clinton fired cruise missiles at an abandoned terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and managed to damage an aspirin factory in the Sudan with no apparent casualties in either volley of missiles. What does that mean?

"I keep hearing the excuse we didn't have actionable intelligence. Well, what the hell does that say to al Qaeda? Basically, they knew - beginning in 1993 it seems to me - that there was going to be limited, if any, use of military and that they were relatively free to do whatever they wanted." - Former Sen. Bob Kerrey, member of the 9/11 commission, admitting the Clinton administration’s inept handing of terrorism.

“Admit it: Bush only cared about terror after 911.”

Nope. Wrong again. My supporting information?

"I have worked for two different administrations, two different political parties...This (Bush) administration was working hard before Sept. 11 to devise a comprehensive framework to deal with al Qaeda based on the best knowledge that we in the intelligence community could provide, and during this time, the intelligence community did not stand still." – CIA Director George Tenet.

As for your assertion that the Clinton administration stopped the Seattle and LA Y2K attacks, the fact of the matter is, the Clinton administration didn’t even bother to put out a warning, and the border guard herself said that there was no warning from the government, and the only reason the attack was thwarted was that the suspect was very nervous and sweating when she approached, and even then, she thought she only had a possible drug bust when they finally opened the trunk. It was shear dumb luck.

Your assertion that, “after the first plane hit the WTC, there should have been fighter jets up and ready to bomb the others. At least one WTC tower could have been saved, and probably 1800 lives” betrays massive ignorance on your part. CAPs (combat air patrols) were launched as soon as there was an indication that terrorist attacks, and not a horrible accident, were underway. Two flights were en route to New York City as the second tower was gored.

But let’s suppose that they got fighters scrambled faster after the first plane came down, and the one flight was actually able to intercept the second plane north of NYC proper. More than likely, the 757 would come within Phoenix missile range in Westchester County, New York, somewhere near the Tappan Zee Bridge in a dream scenario. But let’s just play it out, okay?

If both fighters were given the command to fire both Phoenix missiles (a total of four), and all four missiles were able to successfully hit the 757, the fuel-laden plane would probably have gone down somewhere between Irvington and Yonkers, killing all aboard. Ground casualties would be very difficult to determine because we are dealing with a hypothetical situation, but lets go with the less damaging scenario of an Irvington ground contact.

Believe it or not, Phoenix missiles, while heavy medicine for other fighter aircraft, more than likely would not cause the tremendous fireballs you see when watching reruns of Iron Eagle or Top Gun when hitting a commercial airliner. A probable scenario is that the plane would come down with the fuselage largely intact like a multi-ton bomb, while burning fuel hit homes, office buildings and apartments like napalm over a mile-long area, burning at several thousand degrees. At least one of Irvington’s fire stations is hit, destroying all four trucks, and hindering first-responder time. Being a bedroom community, Irvington would not have the number of emergency responders available to NYC that day even without the direct hit on the fire station, and because of the spread out nature of the crash site, would have more communication problems.

A guestimate of the casualties would include the roughly 100 hundred on the plane, and four to five hundred on the ground, providing that the plane did not impact the MetroNorth commuter train line or the Irvington mass transit station, which could easily double the number of dead and wounded. Of course, that would be the best-case scenario, not counting the unlikely event that the plane would go down into the Hudson itself.

If the plane did make it downrange and was downed over Yonkers or northern Manhattan, casualties would not only be worse than an Irvington strike, but would more likely be than actual events, where the damaged occurred in a relatively small geographic area where NYFD, PAPD, and NYPD able to concentrate their forces.

As usual, I have a ton more to refute KEITHJOY’s sincere but inaccurate rants. But I’ll not take up too much more time defeating the illogic of one troll.

CGW:

thank god our government gave our guys fighting in Iraq some real guns this time..With our swords against the Germans we didn't get far.. ;-)

DCWatson:

who wants to marry anyway in a country that is in such a state..? And why do civilians have guns? Maybe one of you Americans can explain me that??

Oh by the way....that innocent wedding celebration in the middle of the night......

Troops found weapons, Iraqi and Syrian currency, some passports and some satellite communications gear. Hmmmm, that's a hell of a wedding present.

lobo91:
cgw:
dcwatson:

Don't believe everything your press tells you..

Ofcourse they found weapons..!! Next time they will find weapons of mass distruction..!! just watch and wait..

Do you really think Bush could handle any more mistakes like these?

He will tell you everything to save his ass..

Frankie Knuckles:

Ofcourse they found weapons!

And satellite communications equipment...a pile of Syrian passports...wads of Syrian and Iraqi cash...

Nope...nothing out of the ordinary there...

I hope everyone is paying attention to the "voice of reason" Knowledge is power, Mr. Knucklehead. Perhaps you should make an attempt to obtain some, and stop bashing my country.

2:45am, Iraq/Syria border, on a Wednesday.....A wedding? They don't even do well at lying....and they should because that seems to be all they do, except for stealing, raping, killing, mutilating corpses, then hiding in religious sites.

DCwatson..

don't be so sensitive on your country man.. I told you many times before..I love the US for many things and for many things they have done..really!

your country is not perfect..just like mine..we all have our things..

don't take it personal..I don't see myself as the "voice of reason"..I just think websites like these are dangerous as they generalize too much like many of the writers here do too..Just like the Germans did about all Jews and gays..that's bad..come on.. Do you really think I don't make any sense here?

OK Frankie, you have the floor. Please tell me, and anyone else that's interested what Islam does for this planet that's so positive. What does Islam do for the betterment of anything?

I'm not a muslim, I have never red the Koran.. so I can't tell you..I just know that its wrong to judge people by the colour of their skin, religion, etc.

Sad to see you writing:

"2:45am, Iraq/Syria border, on a Wednesday.....A wedding? They don't even do well at lying....and they should because that seems to be all they do, except for stealing, raping, killing, mutilating corpses, then hiding in religious sites."

have you seen the pictures of this recent "wedding" bombing..I did...parents walking around with their children, blood, tears...

the sad thing is that not only we in Europe see these pictures, but they're shown everyday to millions of muslims..(its propaganda..)

what do you think that does with them?

With all of the sources out there, there is no excuse for not ariving at the truth of a story when it's investigated.
You liberal posters with an agenda only hear and speak what suits your cause then close your eyes and ears to what follows.
The truth is the enemy of Jihad, you Dhimmi-wits.

Syria had sanctions (too light as far as I'm concerned) placed on them because they are a terror sponsoring state. This was not a wedding. Remember, Muslims have sent their children into Israel with bombs strapped to them, so no, I don't believe a word they say.

You didn't answer my question because you can't. Admit it, you can't give one example of Islam being an asset to this world.

Europe better open their eyes, because they're being overrun by this cult, and they do nothing about it. If you think you can live and co-exist with this jailhouse religion, I wish you luck. Perhaps you should take some time and read at least some of the Qur'an, as it will demonstrate to you that we are not dealing with reasonable, rational, or even (in many cases) literate people.

What I posted is true. It's factual. Many Muslims attempt to alter history with their protests because they know that Islam has failed as a religion and is considered a cult, a death cult.

Their prophet, Mohammed, has been proven to be maniacal. Political correctness is going to have to sit in the back seat while this war is underway. And as far as what I post, it will. I'm not interested in winning hearts and minds of people that look for reasons to hate us.

I'm interested in the survival of our culture and our nation. Muslims, with their actions, not the color of their skin, don't fit into that plan.

frankie knuckles:

You wrote:

"I just know that its wrong to judge people by the colour of their skin, religion, etc."

Most of us on this site agree with that principle completely. American society currently functions on that basis - or at least attempts to.

Please understand: We don't care what these people look like, we care what they DO. And because what they do is in this case dictated by what they THINK and BELIEVE, we care about that, too. They believe that they are going to impose worldwide Islam by force, and that causes them to ACT in certain reprehensible ways that are unacceptable to us. Inherent in their very basic tenets is this concept - that they will subjugate the entire world, and that you and I will convert or die. It's not just the idea of a few radicals - it's an essential part of their "theology". They believe it is inevitable, and this is taught to ALL of them, not just a few. Of course we have the right and the obligation to oppose them AS A GROUP in order to preserve our way of life.

What will you do when the time comes, frankie? Convert or die?

D.C:

"Their prophet, Mohammed, has been proven to be maniacal. Political correctness is going to have to sit in the back seat while this war is underway. And as far as what I post, it will. I'm not interested in winning hearts and minds of people that look for reasons to hate us.

I'm interested in the survival of our culture and our nation. Muslims, with their actions, not the color of their skin, don't fit into that plan.

Posted by: DCWatson at May 20, 2004 12:32 PM"

AMEN!

As I said before, I don't know much about the Islam..I have always heard that its a religion that comes with peace just like the other religions..(this is also what many muslims tell me). If it is true that they are out to concure the world (which is something else then trying to get as much followers as possible, Catholics do that too) why don't I read anything about that in the news..?

I mean Bush invated Iraq as he was convinced they had wappens of mass distruction..not because he accused Saddam of having plans to concure the world...

Do you really see each muslim as your enemy?

I'm not going to answer your question..because it doesn't make any sense...it sounds spectacular though..

Frankie:

What's gotten into you. In your earlier posts you were saying we Americans weren't arguing factually. We were all warmongers and bigots. I think as time went on you saw that that there are a variety of political views and thoughts against jihad posted on this site. They cross political parties and philosphies. I think that's what set you off. You can't say we Americans are monolithic Neanderthals as some in the European media portray.

Frankie, we don't know what happened yet with these deaths near the Syrian border. I think it's telling though that you immediately choose to believe the Jihadist and not the coalition's view. What was most troubling to me about your earlier rant was your mockery towards your own Dutch army. Men and women from your country that are fighting terrorists, yet you choosed to mock them. Very sad!

The bottom line is this, Muslims want to be the domiant religion.

"Muslim institutions, schools and economic power should be strengthened in America. Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ...... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

This was taken as a direct quote from Omar Ahmad who is the Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. If this doesn't tell you that we need to raise against and not allow this man to have his way in our world, I don't know what will. So tell me, this is peace? Oh I know, it's just one person's opinion right? I'm sorry but any Muslim who sits there and tells me they would not want to see their religion as the only religion followed in the United States is full of crap! I've read here so many times that the duty of any Muslim is to educate those on Islam and there is at least one person on here who has even stated they are calling us to Islam. Okay, so that means you're not trying to convert us? Frankie please wake up before you are ambushed with "Convert or Die". These people know exactly what they are doing and how to behave in order to get their own way, they say the right things and over and over again proclaim the beauty and peace of Islam. You must be smarter than them or join them and then try to leave Islam. Many have seen the light and have left, several are personal friends of mine. Do more research. You'll soon be disgusted along with the rest of.

Frankie Knuckles:

If it is true that they are out to concure the world (which is something else then trying to get as much followers as possible, Catholics do that too) why don't I read anything about that in the news..?

Probably because the people running our major media outlets are too busy telling the public that Bush is the leader of some "neo-con" plot to do the same?

I mean Bush invated Iraq as he was convinced they had wappens of mass distruction..

As soon as you come up with proof that he DIDN'T, let us know.

Do you really see each muslim as your enemy?

Nope...just the ones who want to kill and/or convert us all.

Until someone can develop some sort of test so we can tell the difference, I'll be forced to regard them all as suspect.

Frankie,

Your last post seems to indicate you are not the typical troll looking to stir up trouble, but someone honestly searching for the truth. I cannot commend you enough for that; too many people on all three main sides of the issue (liberal socialist democrats, neocon conservatives, and ultra-right Islamic fascists) blindly follow their leaders with giving it a great deal of thought. Too few people seem to fall between the cracks of these three groups, and actually are looking for knowledge.

I only first came here a week or so back, and like, you came in with only anecdotal knowledge of the Muslim religion and culture. American media conglomerates were my primary source of information. While I held (and hold) firm political beliefs, the few Muslims I’ve met over the years seemed like very nice people.

The articles here are important, but not nearly as important as the comments. It is there you will learn the most. Read and post for a week or two and then let me know where you stand.

I’d be interested in finding out how your views have changed, if indeed they have. Good luck.

I dont know many muslim people, and i have certainly never been to a muslim wedding...but those are some wierd wedding gifts...I dont remember getting piles of passports, weapons and satellite communication devices at my wedding...wouldnt shock me at all if one of them were to have set a bomb off in the middle of those people just to cover what they were really up to, they have never had any problem killing one another. What are kids that small doing out at 3am...even on a special occasion small kids will drop from exhaustion (I know when mine were that small even when they begged to stay up they never made it past 11) seems fishy. Dont get the whole "weapon firing to celebrate something" that they do...maybe its a cultural thing but imagine shooting one of your children while celebrating...seems like an accident waiting to happen.

frankie knuckles:

Respectfully, you need to educate yourself about the Islamic threat. We are not just making all this up. Read Robert Spencer's books, read Ibn Warraq, then come back and we'll talk.

Also, follow Bob Owens advice about reading all the comments. Bob's testimony about his own experience here is compelling. Learn, study and THEN opine.

Regards,

CGW

USAGirl,

"I dont remember getting piles of passports, weapons and satellite communication devices at my wedding..."

Obviously, you need better wedding guests.

How do you thin I got my wonderful Abrams tank?

;-)

Unionjack
we know of the Fox story and I saw the video where the monsters cut the head off a man, and showed their prize to the camra [the world]. I do not have a problem with the youth of today seeing this. They need to know what these monsters are about! Not the hollywood version. This is just one more thing the Press does not want the American people to see. Another is the Cem attack in Jordan that came from Siyra vie Iraq or the press slience on the cem. bomb that blew-up and Iraqis were lucky that it did not mix right or there would be thousands dead.
OR The amount of Iraqis that have been killed by other Mulsums is another thing the press keep quite why? The Iraqis want Freedom from all the madness of the rest of the mulsum world sending killers to their land to kill them And Americans are you part of that world sending killers to kill Iraqis?

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her [Iraqis too] Give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Bob Owens:

PLEASE keep up the humor! It really brightens my day. This subject is so deadly serious that the humor is a much-needed break. (I cracked up over the one about the maggots. Just priceless ...)

All Americans need to get a "WW2 Mindset" and put bickering and finger pointing behind. We need to be united! Alas, some have an "agenda"! We need to get serious! Militant Hateful Islam wants to destroy us. That is the bottom line. Lets get a "mindset" to win! How about it?

Don

Frankie got a hint of realism found out about the cem. being found in jordan and know has heard about the cem bomb going off in Iraq and his home is closer than ours is.
another point he has been a terrorist supporter and found he had to convert or die and he hates any god but the idea to bow to a big black rock that is another story so he is try-ing to point out he has a army that is on our side. Frankie is waking up but has been such a smart-a-s that he can't stop. Ck out the story in Germany and double that where frankie comes from .

Dano great story I hope it is true you guys need a boost!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and hr Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the Course to Victory Amen

I have always heard that its a religion that comes with peace just like the other religions..(this is also what many muslims tell me). If it is true that they are out to concure the world (which is something else then trying to get as much followers as possible, Catholics do that too) why don't I read anything about that in the news..?

I'm not going to answer your question..because it doesn't make any sense...it sounds spectacular though..

Posted by frankie knuckles at May 20, 2004 12:54 PM

Part 1) Are you in Europe or in a cave? Of course Muslims will tell you they belong ot a peaceful religion, duh. The unholy Koran says that deception will be used to defeat the enemy. Watch TV, does this look like a religion of peace to you? Or a religion at all? What is wrong with you?
Religion of peace? Rubbish.

Part 2) Nice try on the cop out, but like I said, I asked you to name one thing Islam does that makes it an asset to humankind. You can't, because that answer doesn't exist. Frankie, you may want to think about waking up, before one morning you look in the mirror and find a diaper on your head, and a koran in your hand......Wise up.

Why don't you hear it on the news? LOL My earlier post stated that American, European, and especially Arab news agencies are against the U.S. and its allies. You disappoint me with your blatant refusal to see what's in front of your face.

Regarding the Muslims you talk to, I wouldn't recommend turning your back to them.

DCWatson,

Arab culture, while on dubious standing now, once gave much to the culture of the world, and in fact were the light of hope during Europe's Dark Ages. They once led in medicine, science and mathematics. As Europe managed to pull through its dark age, perhaps they may too one day.

The "Dark Ages" were a name given the time previous by the people living in the 16th century to show how unsophisticated they were. The term is no longer used by historians and it is called the Middle Ages. Many of the advances of the time came from the ancient texts of Greece transl. into Latin. The only thing that the Muslims contributed was a few commentaries. The really great thing that the Arabic works contained was many brilliant minds of Atheists such as al-Razi (Razes) who was the world's first chemist, Alhazen who advanced knowledge of the eye (his writings were burned less than 100 years after his death), Omar Kayyam (wrote in Persian, not Arab), Tabari who was a Christian who converted for the "prestige" and to keep his rank (it was slipping away from him for being Christian), Ibn Rushd (Averroës) who was of Christian stock that converted shortly before his birth (couple generations), Ibn Tufayl who hated living in Islamic society and wished he was dead, al-Farabi a Turk whose writings are not remembered, Ibn Sina (Avicenna) who was of Zoroastrian stock and descended from the priests and his writings were burned too.

As you can see from the small sample that Islam never produced anything. It was the former peoples who struggled to stay alive.

These examples are far from current. I appreciate the information, however, what do Muslims do for the communities in which they reside to better the communities? Charity work? Do they have food, clothing, or any other type of drives that may benefit someone outside of Islam?

Omar Kayyam...

Wasn't he the guy who liked the product so much, he bought the company?

;-)

Isn't the Netherlands the home of legalized marijuana and prostitution? So being stoned out of your mind is considered by the government a *good* thing? Isn't it in Amsterdam where the unfortunate women dance and slink in the windows like so much commerce so that the Dutch men can purchase them?

Oh well. To each his own, huh, Frankster?

You gouda problem with the US, tell it to the EU.

I'll move to a new subject. It's apparent that there is no answer for the question asked, and that Islam/Muslims do nothing to enhance or improve the communities that they've moved into.

LOL.......That could've been viewed as both an easy question, or a difficult question......However, the answer would be the same.

"The "Dark Ages" were a name given the time previous by the people living in the 16th century to show how unsophisticated they were."

The Dark Ages are "dark" because there is so little written information emanating from the period which is approx. 300 A.D. to the early Middle Ages, approx. 600 years later. Literacy was confined predominantly to the church, not an institution well known for recording accurate history.

Even knowledge as basic as this will be lost should the Jihadists have their way.

Whistling Dixie:

Even knowledge as basic as this will be lost should the Jihadists have their way.

True, but I'll be we all get a free copy of the Qur'an, so it's not a complete loss.

Plus, as an added bonus, you don't have to waste all that time thinking anymore.

Muslems must really enjoying the show that we Americans are putting on for them.

Blame the twin towers for standing there that day, blame the nice clear weather that day, blame the president, blame the birds they should have intercepeted, blame, your fellow countrymen because they didn't die.

Who piloted the planes---MUSLEMS
Who plotted for years----MUSLEMS
Who took us by surprise-MUSLEMS
Who kill all our people-MUSLEMS

Direct your anger at MUSLEMS they are the enemy.

The wolf is at the door greet him with a gun.

Guys:

The Muslims have already TAKEN OVER the May 15 "Berg had Qur'an..." thread.

Dixie:

There was plenty of works written in the Middle Ages. Many of these were epic poems and theological treatises. Our reconing of BC and AD comes from this time: St Bede gaves the knowledge of when things happened in relation to others. New Languages were being formed. Old English, Old French, Slavic was written for the first time. Books originally in Latin were well preserved and many new works were based on or followed the same style of them. Suetonius "Twelve Caesars" was the model for the 9th Cent. "Charlemagne".

Omar Khayyam

I like the Shah Nameh. Firdausi did a good job on it.

Guys;
CGW is right, the Muslims did take over May 15th thread Berg had Qu'ran. And once again proved yet another point: they had attacked my post by saying of course they do not say it's either convert or die. If you convert, great, if not then it's your problem and you will have to deal with God! Gee, we already knew that thanks ever so much for proving it! Also they could not say any comments to what I had showed about one of their leaders in the Islamic world, Omar Ahmad who is the Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. You can see that post further up in this thread. Of course the night is still young and I'm sure I will have yet another post to read from them if not in this thread then in May 15ths.

May 15th's thread on Berg was fortified with some American support about an hour ago.....

Aw, CGW, they didn't take over the thread, they are just trying to show us how wrong we are for not seeing that Islam is "The Religion of Peace." How could you mistake that for an invasion. ??? ;-)

Paula and CGW,
They can try and take over the thread, they won't succeed though. We Ameicans still have things to say and believe me we will. Just like them, we don't give up that easily.

Well Mahmoud,
You claim I (and all of us) hate it when you say "long live Islam and long live Muslims." As usual, you are incorrect, misled and off course.
Long time friend of mine in high school just happened to be named Salim. Guess what religion HE was? Guess what we talked about a great deal while killing ourselves on the swim team, and between classes? Guess all those long dinner discussions I had with his family, and so forth didn't teach me a thing.
One of my most-loved friends and serious girlfriend for a very long time in college just happened to be named Shelli, her last name was Lebanese. I guess all THOSE dinners, long conversations and discussions with her and her family didn't show or teach me a thing either, no? I'd bet I'm not that unusual here.
None here, I'd wager 'hate' Muslims or Islam, excepting the ACTIONS of some of it's followers...who can't seem to get out of the pastoral, juvenile, 8th century eye-for-an-eye, kill them all and let Allah sort them out mindset.
If violent muslims could learn to live in peace, grow a few neuron connections and stop spending all the money on guns instead of butter, they might be better off. (I'm SURE for example, that ALL of Mr. Arafat's personal 1.3 BILLION fortune ALL came from his engineering firm, and not milked from the cash donations to the "palestinian" people....yeah, right!)
I'd even be willing to bet that if Islam's tennants were more calmly accepted, rather than militarized, by those seeking worldly power, rather than spiritual growth...the world would be better off in general.
In short, grow up. If you want people to respect (not fear) your religion, then show us you're worth of respect! Stop responding to equally juvenile posts attacking you, and SHOW people that what you say is true...all we can see are the actions of butchers who kill, and claim you all are alike and agree with them.
Are you, Mahmoud?

well, i guess the muslims did take over the thread... the people in charge of the website didnt like hearing the truth very much, did they? so we cannot comment there anymore... but hey, look at that, ill bring all the muslims here!!!

aliyah,

No one can access that thread and several others; there's some sort of technical site issue.

Remember to read the disclaimer by Robert Spencer above:

"Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)"

Robert frequently deletes comments that he finds objectionable. Be advised. This is HIS website, after all.

CGW, what exactly did i say was objectionable? dont i have a right to defend my religion? im sure that i have freedom of speech in the 'land of the free', right? i did not say anything offensive, and Robert Spencer did not delete any of my comments, because they have no offensive material. if anyone, you people's comments should be censored, because you are so rude and attack Islam so viciously. oh, and if you manage to see Susan B anywhere, ask her why she hasnt answered my quesions? beacuse i answered hers; if she read my post a little more carefully, she would see that i did answer.

aliyah:

Put down your weapons for a second.

I would like to respectfully suggest that, if you really want to debate people, you post on more current threads. Many of us don't check back to the older threads very often, if at all.
The "regulars" typically post on the most current threads.

first, i have no intention on debating, nor am i a 'regular' on posting on these threads. the only reason that i, along with dina, nisren, alya and a few others, were posting on the thread about Berg having a Quran was because there are so many people out there that have the completely wrong idea about islam. all they see is this extremist, violent idea that this is what islam is all about. and that really bothers me, because i, as a muslim, know that that is not what it is all about. many a time did i feel bad about all the things that happened in the name of islam. i lost my best friend on 9/11. many of my acquaintances were sent off to fight in Iraq. dont you think that i felt bad about that? dont you think that i was very angry when Nick Berg was killed? i was, but that really is not what Islam is all about. i dont want to seem hostile, and i hope you dont think of any of us as rude or obnoxious, because that is not what we think of any of you. we all have a right to speak our minds, as both of the sides were doing.

aliyah,

Of course you have the right to speak your mind. I am simply inviting you to do so again whenever you wish on other, more current threads.

There can be a lot of hostility on this forum; we get threats from Muslims about how inevitable it is that soon we will be subjugated under the Islamic Caliphate, etc. Many Muslims that post here (and I'm not stereotyping, I'm giving you an honest assessment) hate America and Americans and all that we stand for, and don't hesitate to say so. (I'm NOT including you in that group.) Maybe you can see why we tend to react strongly.

I invite you (if you're not doing it already) to read the articles and comments on Jihad Watch and on Dhimmi Watch and jump in on the discussion whenever you like. Be warned, though; this is an anti-Islamist site and people don't take kindly to the attempted propagation of Islamic ideology.

Finally, I wasn't numbering you among the "regulars", I was just advising you as to where most who post here "hang out". Some people will name-call and get abusive but you don't have to stoop to their level in your responses. (Even I sometimes get offended by the inappropriate verbal behavior of my own "side", but I understand how people can be passionate about their beliefs.) The people who are the most abusive often have the least credibility; people who make reasoned, rational arguments are most often respected and appreciated here.

Even though I disagree with your ideology, I support completely your right to express it. That is what freedom and democracy are all about.

Respectfully,

CGW

Aliyah,
For sometime now I've been reading posts and different threads on here and have kept quiet but after what I just went through, I cannot any longer. First, let me start by saying I watched the news broadcast of newest threats to attack the US this summer and fall and I literally ran into the other room to grab my sleeping infant and hold her the entire time. These people are intent on killing every single person on this earth whether they are Muslim or not. If they were truly Muslims, they would not wish to kill their own AND they would not wish to kill innocent people whether it's women and children or not, INNOCENT MEANS INNOCENT! Now after watching that wonderul news I'm just supposed to go back to my life and not think about burying my child, my husband because of some bastard that claims to be an American or an attack that happens while we're at a mall or some other place or home for that? I fully intend to call the police any anyone or anything I think is odd, I will keep the police on my speed dial and will surely now look to getting a gun. I've never wanted to own one before but since these bastards are running lose in the United States I won't stop to shoot. You want people to see peace in Islam? How can we? We are under attack for being a free country, we are not without mistakes and wrong doings whether they be public or private but now we deserve to die in the name of Allah? Who made them God? Now, onto my second problem:
For years I've been going to this one gas station that is owned by a Muslim. He is always very nice, polite, well groomed. Prior to Sept 11 many of us have always known he was a Muslim, on Sept 11 I was at his gas station when the radio announced the second tower being hit. He turned me, muttered something that sounded like a prayer in Arabic, and told me he was truly sorry if I had anyone killed. At first I was taken aback and wondered why the hell he would be saying this to me? A few days after 9/11 I went back and had my child with me and he looked at me with the most threatening look I've ever seen telling me that I need to make my child Muslim before she and I die. This same person who was always so nice and made extra effort to do some nice and kind things began changing right in front of me starting on 9/11. At first I thought maybe he was being nice and felt badly that he was associated with a religion that had just attacked us but when I saw him after 9/11, he was pure evil. He was still well groomed and kept but was saying all kinds of nasty, evil things. Well he was jumped by several men and beaten pretty badly. You can't expect us to just sit back and continue on our way when he is sitting there saying these hurtful, disgusting things. At this point, I'm even wondering if he is someone the FBI is looking for and believe me, I contacted the police ASAP and they took what I told them seriously as cops were down there quickly and his gas station as since then closed down. He had told me that every Muslim that is here believes that unless you convert you must die. There is no such thing as being here and not wanting to take over the entire world with Islam. He kept stating that Muslims will kill if you do not listen to what they are saying and that no matter what lies a Muslim might say, it is their duty to openly lie in order to get you to come to our side, that there is no such thing as peace, Islam will dominate all and women will lose all that they have ever known, our husbands must rule us so that we behave ourselves. And then I read all the posts here and I'm supposed to forget what this man said to me, the way he looked at me telling me there are many here than just him and that I should never let my guard down! I wish I had a gun that day so I could have shot him dead. Go ahead, tell me that I am wrong for saying that or thinking that but what would you do if someone came to attack your family, Muslim or not, you wouldn't fight for them, what about if you see someone in the street attacking an innocent, a woman or child, would you not step in to save them? If you can tell me no than you do not deserve to have the same liberty that we share as Americans and yet you say we are so hostile and against Islam, why can't you and everyone else understand that we are being attacked and we are just going to sit back and be quiet and nice? How can we? Why can't you understand what America is facing and rather than try so earnestly to educate us on Islam, stand up and tell us that you pray none of us or our family gets hurt or killed regardless of what is being said on these posts? You pray for protection against those who wish to do us nothing but harm and that you pray an angel will be with us, surrounding us to keep us safe whether we are Muslim or not. You keep wanting to educate us but can't you see why we don't want to be told any of this? We are war with an enemy that doesn't listen to reason, that uses something that is supposed to be considered holy as his religion or faith to back up as to why he is doing this, someone who is intent on killing everyone in the name of his religion. The Middle East is so violent and full of hate, how abot Iran/Iraq the years they were figthing one another. You say how we went into Iraq, would you rather we allow Saddam to continue his reign with his sons and those who did not deserve punishment or death, continue dying and bleeding? We took him out of power, yes we have our wrongs but what would you rather have, Saddam in power or out? Without us Saddam would still be in power and god only knows what would've happened to more people. Why can't you, all of you try for at least one minute to understand why we are so in your face about our views on Islam, that is all we see and hear and now with this latest news of more attacks that will be more severe and you expect the American people to just what, relax and learn about Islam? Why so that we may die while we understand this? NO! I for one do not want to learn about Islam, not until all Al-queda, Bin Laden are dead. Once the threat is gone and these people are all dead, I will then sit and learn about Islam. You cannot tell me ever that these people will give up or see the peace that is Islam, what peace? I don't think they know what the word means. My child will never grow up and live her life as she will die this summer along with millions of other innocent people and there's nothing the government or law officials can or will do. If they did, they would've taken the threats prior to Sept 11 more seriously, they laughed it off saying we get millions of threats every day how could they possibly know that those threats were going happen. For all those government/FBI officials: Well, assholes they did and now you're going to take the newest threats seriously becasue why, I'll tell you why, because you are assholes who stood by and allowed millions to die on 9/11 when you already had the information and could've tried to stop it or at least minimize the number of deaths. But no, you couldn't waste your damn time, who the hell cares how many threats we get each day, you should follow each one, you do not know which one is serious or not and if you really were/are concerned with Americans lives, you need to act more like it. No instead you allow foreigners in our world so they can learn about us and take that info back to Bin Laden in order to kill us, you son of a bitches, you should not be allowed to live, how about you and your family being blown to bits that's what you deserve you do our country no good ever. Now you want the American people to help you by notifing authorities and what do you plan on doing with that information? SIT ON IT AS USUAL? You won't do a damn thing because you have no clue!
Well, I will take the law into my own hands now since the law doesn't seem to do anything to help protect it's people. I will not be a victim but I will be the one jail right and those terrorists will be free?
As far any Muslim on this site that truly, TRULY wants to educate us and not kill us, stop telling us that our grandchildren will be Muslim, for once stop and understand what threat we are facing and help us to find a way to bring those down who want to kill us. I implore every REAL AMERICAN on this site to bring those down in anyway in order to safeguard our security and well being. Being an AMERICAN should mean more to those who left their own countries in search of a better life and they should be the first on line to proclaim AMERICA free from terrorism and all it stands for.

Nic, i really am sorry about the incident with the gas-station man. "He had told me that every Muslim that is here believes that unless you convert you must die. There is no such thing as being here and not wanting to take over the entire world with Islam. He kept stating that Muslims will kill if you do not listen to what they are saying and that no matter what lies a Muslim might say, it is their duty to openly lie in order to get you to come to our side, that there is no such thing as peace, Islam will dominate all and women will lose all that they have ever known, our husbands must rule us so that we behave ourselves."
that is not true at all. and i can say this because i am a muslim, and am surrounded by muslim country. none of us believe that in 'convert or die'. conversion to islam is up to the person themselves; if they do, okay, and if they dont wat to, okay. muslims will kill you if you do not listen to what they are saying? that is not true either- i posted on one particular thread and basically, not a single person listened to me. but do you see me going after them? no, because i did my job- i defended Islam as far as i could, and if no one listens to it, then oh well, at least its not like i sat around doing absolutely nothing while i saw my religion being attacked. "I for one do not want to learn about Islam, not until all Al-queda, Bin Laden are dead." i can understand your sentiment, because the only view that the media is presenting of Islam is this extremist, violent, kill-everyone-who-is-not-a-muslim side. i, as a muslim, do believe in my religion, but i really will not go and kill anyone who will not accept my religion, and neither will anyone i know. of course, those people, muslim or nonmuslim, who kill innocent people are wrong. if they declare themselves muslims and then go and kill innocent people, they are being religiously and morally wrong. in the quran, it saya, 5:32: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
this shows that we are not allowed to kill innocent people. why people kill innocent people in the name of Islam will remain a mystery to me, unless they are set on giving Islam a bad name.