"If this country had Islamic law it would be the best country on the Earth"

"You will be assimilated..."

It's bad when even the little old ladies are nuts.

what mother's son
has *ever* committed a murder?

-doc

What have these poor, oppressed people done to deserve such treatment? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They obviously want nothing but good for America, otherwise they would not dream of the establishment of Sharia and the blessings of Allah (swt) upon the country that would result.

Why do you continue warring against Allah (swt)? Why do you continue oppressing innocent Muslims like these people? WHY?

Allahu akbar

An interesting take on how an American General took care of Islamic Terrorists in a forgotten war, posted on another site.

"...the "Catch-22" to a Muslim fundamentalist is that they firmly believe that if they touch anything from a pig at death, they are doomed forever.

"Before World War I, U.S. General "Blackjack" Pershing put down an Islamic insurgent movement in the Philippines by having 50 captured Islamic fundamentalist terrorist tied to posts for execution by firing squad.

"In full view of all 50, Pershing had his men slaughter two pigs. Pershing's men next dipped their bullets in the pigs blood, making sure the horrified terrorists watched.

"Blackjack's men shot 49 of these terrorists, dumped their bodies in a common grave and covered them with pig parts. The 50th terrorist was let go and returned to his comrades.

"After this, it took 42 more years before there was another serious Islamic terrorist incident in the Philippines."

I don't know if this is true or not, but it is an interesting enough theory that it has been suggested that Israeli public buses and other central locations uses bags of pig fat to deter suicide bombers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3484277.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/08/20/suicide.bombers/

Why do you continue warring against Allah (swt)? Why do you continue oppressing innocent Muslims like these people? WHY?

Allahu akbar

Posted by Reza at May 27, 2004 02:27 PM

Raisin, Innocent Muslim? Show us one. Why don't Muslims head back to the sandbox....America is already the greatest country on the planet, and we don't need 7th century barbaric, incestial, inequality, "me Tarzan, you Jane" mentality trashing the place....

When are you going to learn that the U.S. will NEVER be under the Sharia? Sharia, where inadequate, insecure little Muslim men are allowed to beat their wifes, and rape their sisters.

Raisin, Twinkie, and the rest of you Jihad apologists/supporters......Go back to the sand, your lack of humanity isn't working here, and no one believes your lies. Religion of "pieces"

Correction: wives

Reza:

The longer a country has been Muslim the poorer and more backward it is.

Dear old Reza doesn't begin to grasp the culture, the original Judeo-Christian culture, that has made American great. Sharia law would destroy all that is good and great in the United States, as it nearly has in every other Muslim country. What a bunch of brainwashed slaves. Even the Muslims religious analogy for the relationship between God and Man is that of master/slave no father/child.

From my reading the greatest cultural benefit of Christianity and Judaism, is that in their ORTHODOX form they are religions of self-discipline. Muslims are dependent on an overarching authority to enforce or create moral conduct.

Christians and Jews develop moral fiber to resist sin, Muslim men are shielded from temptation by the society as a whole. The price of this shielding is that the society wastes most of the talent of half of the population-women. Muslims also live in fear of violating thousands of tiny, legalistic rules and have to rely on mullahs to make decisions for them. They can't develop the independence of thought and self-reliance that underlies traditional American culture.

Reza, Mahmoud,

There is a comment by Aaron on the "I Killed Two..." thread that suggests the Christian God, Hebrew God, and Allah are all the same being. Care to comment?

In my opinion USA is going in Iraq and Afganistan a fantastic work and is angering the terrorists, because they were free and they´re now prosecuted, and these are good news, long live to USA, and the freedom will prevail.
Greetings

If sharia law is ssssssoooooo great then why hasn't it worked in those countries. But no they are on the bottom of the economic, cultural, and political trash pile. The only reason why some of these countries are partial develop is foreign aid and oil revenues. Guess what, oil is not going to last forever. How are they going to make a living, on their charming personalities, I think not

God Bless America

Reza's a classic example of Stockholm Syndrome. After centuries of Zoroastrianism, empire building and scientific and enginering advances, the Persian Sassanian empire fell to the muslim arabs with their capture in 637 of the Sassanian capital Ctsephon and the arabs' victory in 642 at the battle of Nahavend.

So, after 1300 years of being the arabs' bitch, Reza finds himself the quintessential "dhimmi's dhimmi". Self-loathing, and trapped inside a death-worshipping cult, Reza's life must be a pretty barren source of amusement.

You know something," she said, "he and I used to say, `If this country had Islamic law it would be the best country on the Earth.'"

That about says it all, deport all these muslim freaks!

scotty

Sorry, Islamic morons, but our law of the land is the Constitution of the United States of America. It is from whence that our greatness ensues, not from primitive backward sharia law established by a political cult disguised as a "religion." An Arabic political cult that has had NOTHING to do with the founding, culture and growth of our nation.

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

This is the source of our strength and our greatness as a people. With Sharia we'd be just another backward, illiterate "Arab" country scratching to survive.

Never forget it, fellow Americans.

Dream Team pointed out that the oil revenue won't last forever and what are the poor Muslims to do after that? Of course, they hope to occupy our lands and make us their dhimmis so that we will be forced to support them as we are already doing for some that live off the largesse of American taxpayers.

Of course, there are other immigrants and native born Americans that are also on welfare. Welfare rolls need to be purged and taxpaying Americans should not be expected to support lazy and parasitic foreigners that have contributed nothing of value to this society. It's bad enough that some native born recipients have abused the system. How grating it will be if we become dhimmis to support this lazy bunch!

the reason the mulsums come west is sex! Their women must be realy bad in bed if they kill them selfs for sex?
Their Brains must be fried think about it no Brim hats?

So if we give their women sex ed. and their men hats this could make this whole problem go away?

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and and Her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Little by little the American people are beginning to realize what the Moslems really want - to take over the United States. CAIR has admitted it on many occasions, just as British Moslems have admitted their goal of taking over Britain. Gee, what would the Lefties do if they discovered that their most recent 'politically correct' pet cause hates them even more than they hate the conservative right, for at least the conservative right shares some ideals of modesty with them. The Left is just being used!

I agree. Let's deport every single freaking Muslim in the U.S. now. Their "culture" of wife-beating, infidel-slaying, oppression, honor killing, robotic conformity, lying, and rape has to go.

People are not Afraid they are talking about Sex and diet Sounds Back to normal to me.

Do you want to turn your Safty to the U.N. well that is what Kerry is say-ing he wants to do!!

Loved the Picture of Gore @ green footballs!!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give Them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

"If this country only had Islamic Law..."

Almost laughable, except that he's serious. We currently have excellent examples of nations that have been under Islamic law for longer than the nation in question has BEEN a nation. The results speak for themselves, don't they? How else, in the face of so much oil money, do we explain the backwards, poverty stricken, barbaric conditions Muslims experience as a daily life style. If "enough money will solve it!" were true, Saudi Arabia would be the most advanced nation on earth.

Tell me, Reza et al., how is it that some of the arguably richest nations on earth are home to a form of law that results in a majority of desperately needy, fightened people? You don't see the correlation between that condition and the imposition of Sharia?

Reza,
I know how you are feeling due to the fact that I've had someone very close in such situation before. But do you know the problem, the problem is what you believe, this has made you not to reason like any other reasonable person.
If we start to talk, we will talk from today till eternity, I will like you(reza) to do one assignment if you dont mind, take the bible, read it, take the koran, read it, after you've finished reading the two, tell me which one has been copied and which was copied, bearing in mind that one came before the other,and which will is the truth.
You see something, Sharia is a law that is not even supposed to be mention in places like America or Canada, the northern part of my country claim to practice sharia, but let me tell you something, after about 2 years of practicing all major companies left the areas and came to the southern part, sharia is not a feasible law, it is associated with joblessness, poverty and wickedness, how can you say someone's hand should be cut for stealing cow when you that is judging has just finished stealing a new car? is that justified? Personally I dont think so.
Reza, please try to be a bit more open minded and stop closing your mind on islam, I will not like you to be deceived till eternity where there may be no repentance!
Reza, Jesus loves you!

The article said "she warned him to stay away, telling him that the U.S. government was imprisoning Arab and Muslim men without letting them see a lawyer". This is a lie. By law everyone arrested in this country has the right to an attorney. Ever hear of Miranda? But she's doing a good job of playing the victim to get sympathy. It is sure to get some sympathy among the Kerry crowd. If her son has done no wrong, why is he running and hiding? An honest man should have nothing to fear or hide. Even in countries where there is Sharia law the Muslims still kill each other, have a higher illiteracy rate and lower per capita income than the rest of the world. Ever notice that no Islamic nation ahs popularly elected government, no real democracy? If the US had Sharia we would not be the greatest nation in the world as we are now, but just another POS third world country. Just follow this link to see how Iraq has improved since the US got rid of Saddam:
https://ssl.capwiz.com/congressorg/bio/userletter/?id=298&letter_id=88528416

Sharia law would mean I would have to wear a burkah, be beaten by my husband, stay at home and be seen as worthless.

Over my dead body.

Women should wake up and look directly into the face of a religion that wishes their banishment from society.

Women wake up!

Raisin, Twinkie, and the rest of you Jihad apologists/supporters......Go back to the sand, your lack of humanity isn't working here, and no one believes your lies. Religion of "pieces"

Posted by DCWatson at May 27, 2004 02:46 PM

really, DC... you must stoop down to insulting peoples' names? you actually are quite immature, and most people respect only mature people's opinions. come on, you must be a little better then that.

I did not post the above message! If there is another Hal here, kindly use "hal_2" or some other ID or I will report this to Robert and ask him to remove any fraudulent posts in my name.

Moor;
Sharia law would mean I would have to wear a burkah, be beaten by my husband, stay at home and be seen as worthless.

There is no requirement that a husband beat his wife (or wives) It is not compulsory that a muslim man beat his wife nor is wife beating confined to Islamic societies.

Hal:

The post from "hal" was a Muslim posing as you. Look carefully at the language and spelling - my money's on Mahmoud.

Warriors:

Check out Philip's (a Christian pseudonym for a Muslim identity) comments on the "UK's Channel 4 ..." thread on Dhimmi Watch.

What hateful racists you are. Nothing but threats and blasphemy hurled at these poor people. Not one word of compassion for this pitiful, aged couple, who are being hounded into early graves by your hateful actions.

So does the West show its true colors. Be aware, you cowards, that not all Muslims are old, infirm, and sick. You truely are an evil people, unworthy of anything other than the disdain of decent people everywhere.

Allahu akbar

It is not compulsory that a muslim man beat his wife however it ALLOWED under sharia...beating a woman for whatever reason should NEVER be allowed under any law...it is certainly against the law in the US and contrary to the criminal code of Canada...therefore sharia will never work with the laws of the land..if a muslim feels that strongly that they must be governed by this barbaric law then they need to move to a muslim country...if you immigrate your loyalties should ALWAYS be with the country that took you in...you MUST follow the laws of that land.

If the only thing stopping the USA from being a perfect place is the lack of islamic law, I wonder then why they are applying for a transfer to Iran or Pakistan or perhaps northern Nigeria? I can tell you why, because there sure as hell isn't any cushy, taxpayer provided "medicare beds" waiting for them in any of those places. They are worse than the damned socialists we have in Canada.

If the only thing stopping the USA from being a perfect place is the lack of islamic law, I wonder then why they AREN'T applying for a transfer to Iran or Pakistan or perhaps northern Nigeria? I can tell you why, because there sure as hell isn't any cushy, taxpayer provided "medicare beds" waiting for them in any of those places. They are worse than the damned socialists we have in Canada.

sorry for the double post, correcting a typo

if this country had isamic law at least all the liberals would be impalled on stakes leading in and out of the cities and would be out of the way so the real americans could lead a revolution much like 1776 and start a new christian democracy and prosper like no other nation before

when the stake is bein rammed up the prince of chapoquiticks arse it will be hard not to bless allah but then we can fight for our real freedom

Reza, their son is the coward. If he really cares for his parents, why doesn't he turn himself in? If he is really innocent he has nothing to fear, so why is he runing? Why aren't Muslims coming to this old couple's aid instead of letting them take welfare from the infidels? I simply pointed out that what his mother was saying is untrue. No one in this country is arrested and tried without legal council. No one made any racist comments about them. Islam is a religion, not a race, so stop trying to play the race card here. It won't work. "Decent" people do not rape and murder women and children, blow up busses and innocent civilians, or hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings. Decent people do not kill other people of different religions or because they disagree with them, like Muslims around the world are doing. Decent people do not practice slavery, as is common among Muslin countries. Decent people know the truth and will never embrace a lie.

hey hal liberals embrace lies every day

Sobo, I please not I specifically said DECENT people. ;-)

CGW, BTW I just Emailed Mr. Spencer and asked that the person pretending to be me and posting under my name be permanently barred from the board. Guess we'll soon know if it was Mahmoud.

Hal:

Do you not even know what is going on in your own country? The so-called "Patriot Act(s)" permit the indefinite detention of American citizens incommunicado. Those accused of "terrorism" can be arrested and jailed without telling anybody or allowing them access to a lawyer. An example is Jose Padillo. In effect, habeas corpus has been suspended.

If the person in question is not an American citizen, he can of course be spirited away to Guantanamo or some other concentration camp, held indefinitely without charge under inhumane conditions, and without access to an attorney. He can also be shipped off to a "friendly" country for torture and execution without notification to anybody.

And you prate on about the "brutality" of Sharia? You and your ilk are disgusting racist hypocrites whithout a shred of human decency.

Allahu akbar

Reza said "Do you not even know what is going on in your own country? The so-called "Patriot Act(s)" permit the indefinite detention of American citizens incommunicado. Those accused of "terrorism" can be arrested and jailed without telling anybody or allowing them access to a lawyer. An example is Jose Padillo. In effect, habeas corpus has been suspended."

and your point is?....

your grandchildren will be Cubans living in Guantanamo bay

The last sentence say's it all doesn't it? Assimilation of arab/muslims just doesn't happen in western society. They remain apart from the societies they immigrate to and then try to turn them into an arab/muslim one. Go to paris, london, hamburg, etc, and you'll see it. reza, you are an ass. The Patriot Act is necessary because the islamonazis use our freedoms against us. As far as I'm concerned, its what will keep my kids safe from the animals who indiscriminately kill anyone who they "feel" doesn't meet their standard. Sound familiar? The nazis tried it in europe. It didn't' work then and it won't work now. America, love it or leave it baby. God Bless America, our troops, and Mr. Bush.

Mahmoud:

The so-called "Patriot Act(s)" permit the indefinite detention of American citizens incommunicado.

Why should Islamic terrorists be accorded the rights Americans enjoy?

I can't count the number of times I've heard Muslims claim that "man-made" laws don't apply to them.

They should make up their minds, because they can't have it both ways.

If the person in question is not an American citizen, he can of course be spirited away to Guantanamo or some other concentration camp, held indefinitely without charge under inhumane conditions, and without access to an attorney.

Personally, I consider such people the human equivalent of nuclear waste.

We have to have some sort of storage facility for them, where they can't hurt anyone else. We certainly can't put them in the regular prison system, where they can spread their hate to other prisoners.

Sorry if you don't like their accomodations, but no Muslim has any grounds to call anything we do "inhumane" after the things your people have done in Iraq.

Maybe we should behead them and mutilate their bodies, the way you seem to prefer.

My post above was in response to Hal's statement that:

"I simply pointed out that what his mother was saying is untrue. No one in this country is arrested and tried without legal council [sic]."

As I pointed out, Hal's statement is a lie. I also note with interest that both "canuk" and "Theresa" support the denial of fundamental American Constitutional rights. How dare you facists point fingers at Islam when you advocate such attrocities?

Allahu akbar

Reza:

I also note with interest that both "canuk" and "Theresa" support the denial of fundamental American Constitutional rights.

You've obviously never heard the quote, "The Constitution is not a suicide pact."

Muslims claim not to be bound by "man-made" laws.

So be it.

Yeah, that last sentence just about cracked me up. It cemented the view I have of most Muslims - they're astonishingly stupid.

There must be some secret birthing ritual that we don't know about, where many Muslims drop their newborns on their heads, permanently damaging their brains. That's the only answer for why someone would come up with the conclusion that Islamic law is so great. Look around, Muslims, and try to use what's left of your brains. What country with Islamic law is so great? Why are you heading to Western countries in droves? Why aren't you swarming Saudi Arabia? Why are Islamic countries such cesspits of misery, hatred, intolerance, poverty, and fear? Poor dears, just can't figure out.

"He appreciated this country, its cultural diversity and the kindness of its people, she said."

Well, DUHHHHHHH!! That's because it DOESN'T have Islamic law.

CGW
I am Mahmoud and I post as Mahmoud! look at the email of that false hal: halk32@aol.com
he is probably "halk" and missed the "k".

No! I am Mahmoud, and I hereby renounce Islam. Now please give me the url to some blonde babe websites, and get me a beer. Long live the USA!

Reza said "I also note with interest that both "canuk" and "Theresa" support the denial of fundamental American Constitutional rights. How dare you facists point fingers at Islam when you advocate such attrocities?"

Well for starters, my opinion on "fundamental American Constitutional rights" (what a mouthful) hardly matters, being a Canadian and all.

And the only ones I have seen locked up in Gitmo Bay are irregulars who don't wear uniforms and take up arms against us (us being free, western democratic countries) If you do so, you are not protected under the Geneva conventions. In fact, during WWII it was common to simply shoot such people and no lawyers were called. So to call what the Americans are doing an atrocity is stretching the meaning of the word. Personally I would be a whole lot tougher on the whole works of you.

you all can stop accusing mahmoud, because it was not he, it was I that posted that message. CGW, for your information, there can be more then one hal in the worls, and i am one of them. so, let me post my message again. how about the real mahmoud ask the mr. spencer to block the fraud writing under his name, because i dont think that the real mahmoud would say, "No! I am Mahmoud, and I hereby renounce Islam. Now please give me the url to some blonde babe websites, and get me a beer. Long live the USA!
Posted by Mahmoud at May 27, 2004 10:07 PM" puh- leez, people, learn to be a little more mature.

Raisin, Twinkie, and the rest of you Jihad apologists/supporters......Go back to the sand, your lack of humanity isn't working here, and no one believes your lies. Religion of "pieces"

Posted by DCWatson at May 27, 2004 02:46 PM

really, DC... you must stoop down to insulting peoples' names? you actually are quite immature, and most people respect only mature people's opinions. come on, you must be a little better then that.

oh and BTW, i am not muslim, but the muslims on this thread seem to make a lot more sense then those against them, along with being a lot more polite.

"You know something," she said, "he and I used to say, `If this country had Islamic law it would be the best country on the Earth.'"

If this country had islamic law it would be Afghanistan II....

Make no mistake, Sharia will come to America. It probably will be implemented in Canada before it is established over the entire United States, but come it will. It is the will of Allah (swt)and it is inevitable. True peace and freedom are possible only in accord with the teachings of Islam. You people must work to overcome your fear of the truth. Embrace Islam and cease your futile warring against Almighty Allah (swt). Soon the struggle shall end and the Islamic Caliphate will extend over the Earth.

Allah akbar

Reza, you lying devil, race doesn't play into it. You know that. I know full well and good what is going on in my country. We were attacked on 9-11 without notice or provocation. FYI I suppoprt the homeland defense completely. During WWII we had to suspend the constitution temporarily for the war powers act. If you are not an enemy of this country then you have nothing to fear. If you are then we will get you eventually. We are at war, and we were attacked by Muslims in the name of Islam. If a person is not an American citizen or here legally they are here illegally and are not entitled to and don't deserve the protection of our laws. The nations you mention where people are tortured and made to confess are Muslim, like Syria, Saudi, etc. We do not kill women who become pregnant out of wedlock, or froceably remove their clitoris'. We do not murder a woman who has been raped to save teh family honor. We do not cut off a man's hand if he steals food to feed his family. We do not kill people in the name of god. We do not force other nations to convert to our religion at the threat of death. We do not cut off someone's head or slit their throat on video to intimidate out enemies. We do not blow up schoolbuses full of children. We have already dopne more good in the year we've been in Iraq than Saddam did the whole 23 years he was there.
-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.
-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that were stored there so education can occur.
-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster.
-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
-The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before the war.
-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in place.
-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
-An interim constitution has been signed.
-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Take your lies and stuff them where the sun don't shine, cause we're not buying it anymore. You follow a false prophet, a false religion and a false god, but you don't dare debate that because you know you will lose, just like you're losing the middle East.

Let's try to straighten something out about incarcerations of Muslim men.

First, immigration law allows the incarceration of persons who are in the United States illegally until they can be deported. The classic case is a person who arrives in the United States legally but overstays their visa. If you are a foreign national with permission to stay in the United States until a given date an you fail to leave on time, the United States has the right to deport you immediately. Period. People can be held until they are deported, which allows the U.S. to contact the country of origin and let them know that their citizen or subject is coming back to them and to be prepared to receive them from U.S. authorities in their home airport.

After 9/11 a large number of Muslim men who had overstayed their vsias were deported. This may have prevented another major terrorist attack; we really have no good way to know. They had no right to be here after their visas expired and they were kicked out.

Of course, there was great weeping and gnashing of teeth about this. It is all bullshit. No non-citizen has any right to stay in the United States. A large proportion of illegal aliens enter legally then fail to leave on time, we have less than 4000 people devoted to internal immigration enforcement, so as a practical matter if you can get in you can stay in unless something extraordinary happens.

Alien Illegal Combatants: No country has declared War against the United States. To do would be to invite total disaster because our military is so much stronger than that of any other country. However, war has been declared against the United States by non-state entities, those non-state entities are secretly supported by governments such as Syria, Iran, Egypt, elements of the government of Jordan and Pakistan.

The Geneva Convention differentiates between soldiers in uniform and illegal combatants. Soldiers in uniform are part of an organized army with a chain of command. The chain of command makes it possible to hold people responsible for war crimes. Soldiers in uniform if captured have the right to be treated humanely, however, they can be held for the duration of the conflict. Illegal combatants do not have the protection of the Geneva Convention. Although they should be treated humanely; they should not be afforded the full protections to which uniformed soldiers are entitled.The protections of the Geneva Convention provide an incentive for adversaries to use formal armies and observe the rules of war. If those benefits were given to any combatant that incentive would be lost.

The Patriot Act has nothing to do with holding Muslim men as suspect illegal combatants. Persons who are not citizens of the United States who are waging war against the United States can be held indefinitely. Someone who is planning a terrorist act, such as blowing up a dirty bomb in a major city is "waging war against the United States."

The jihadis have taken advantage of the fact that virtually all of our Constitutional law is based on the idea of war between two nation states. I think Bush could have done more to identify the nation states that are in fact waging war against the United States, just about everyone has figured it out now, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are leaders, Syria is in there also.

The Constitutional powers of the government increase and some liberties of individual citizens may be curtailed if war has been declared against the United States. Roosevelt formally declared war against Japan and Germany which allowed the federal government power that it would not otherwise had in peacetime.

Seems that the biggest argument in America is that one half is trying to persuade the other that a war is going on and standards should be different.

As demonstrated by many articles on this site, the idea of self-government and individual rights is foreign to Islam which gives greater rights to Muslims over non-Muslims and to men over women. It is an irony often noted here that Muslims are the first to demand rights they deny others. The dogged persistance of their ideology in the fact of utter failure is truly amazing. This gives moderns a greater understanding of the decision of Queen Isabella of Spain to throw out all of the Muslims. (Please note, I am not condoning the Inquisition )What else are you going to do with them.

Note that when noice ordinance was suspended in operation the Muslims went ahead and broadcast their call with loudspeakers, they don't care how much it annoys their neighbors. I suspect that they are very happy if it annoys their non-Muslim neighbors who they hope will move out leaving the territory to Muslims.

I don't know how we can protect our country unless we can stop Muslim immigration. Everybody wants that to happen but no one can even express the thought in public.

Muslim immigrants are not welcome in this country as well as in any other western country on the planet...go back home,live under the sharia law,and never come back again.
And if you won`t leave,we will make you leave,as soon as we will lose our patience,tolerance,generosity and we will say enough is enough.
Patience....the time will come sooner than later.

Unfortunatly the muslim creeps used the freedoms of the US to launch a terror attack...so those freedoms now need to be reduced and monitered...so if muslims are feeling bad about the patriot act they just need to thank their muslim brothers for the inconveniences...

as far as the patriot act goes, I have nothing to hide, cross the international border between the US and Canada quite often using my US passport which is run through the system each time and I never feel worried.

OT but the power plants along the niagara river are now being patroled by uniformed military..looks like they are getting ready.

Catherine-
your a firecracker

D.C. Watson
Immature comments are just part of your charming personality

Duomham is Mahmoud spelled backwards

hal k
hang around a while till you get it.

Athena, good post. You're right that the current climate doesn't allow us to talk about the possibility of stopping Muslim immigration, but further Islamic terrorist attacks would soon change that. The public reserve of goodwill towards Muslims is fast running out - even the audience and panelists on a BBC political debate tonight were quite vociferous in their condemnation of Abu Hamza, who we're finally getting rid of. The tide is turning, and time is running out for Islam.

America will not become an islamic paradise like the nation of....er....Iran? Saudi Arabia? Syria? Help me out here Raisin. Which one is the islamic paradise?

yabba dabba akbar!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam-ahmadi.htm

I wonder what Reza thinks of Ahmaddiya muslims
who have been excommunicated from Islam in Pakistan because they said Jihad would henceforth
only mean struggle against one's sins and muslims
will not pick up swords. If Reza is so eager to increase the number of muslims in the world, why not accept the ahmadis in the fold of Islam ?
Why doesn't the 'reformer' Musharraf allow ahmadis to be called muslims ?

Very pertinent questions, Naresh. Also, having been around on the net for a while now, I might have expected to see a few Muslims on message boards like this saying things like, "Let's work together to get rid of the cancer, we've been suffering from the actions of extremists for years," etc. Instead, we have Reza and Mahmoud, telling us about Red Indians who are really Muslims, and that being a dhimmi isn't so bad.

It works in reverse, every christian country that has ever fallen under islamic rule no matter for how long always survivors and is stronger and more christian than ever before, because living under muslim rule makes ur realize how wrong they really are and that the true religion is christianity...look at any country that has overcome its muslim master, after that its never never again and no more mister nice guy because the lesson is learned!

and to add once these countries remove the bondage of islam thrive both culturally and economically... good is good as i see it, countries that were backward for hundreds of years due to islam in a matter of years outgrow those islam counbtries still struggling centuries later...doesnt take a rocket scientist to see which system is right

Dear Hal,

All the things you listed,the things America is doing FOR Iraq, why don't Americans see graphic photos and videos of the things on that list?

Why doesn't someone sneak into Iraq with a camera and document these GOOD things and see if the big news statopms use them. See if they show them over and over...

That would certainly prove their agenda if they refuse to distribute anything good about America's actions.

oops, that 'big news stations'....

"Muslim men are shielded from temptation by the society as a whole. "

Nah. What's really going on gives new meaning to the phrase "get behind me, Satan". They're not waiting for their 72 prepubescent virgins. The sex trade is rampant in these dusty little countries. Sex, drugs and rock and roll for the princes and their petrodollars. Sand, abuse and starvation for the masses.

Here's a joke for everyone, enjoy!

After his death, Osama bin Laden went to Heaven's gates. There he was met by George Washington, who slapped him across the face and yelled at him, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!" Patrick Henry approached and punched Osama in the nose and shouted,
"You wanted to end our liberties but you failed."
James Madison entered, kicked Osama in the groin and said, "This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!"
Thomas Jefferson came in and proceeded to beat Osama many times with a long cane and said, "It was evil men like you that provided me the
inspiration to pen the Declaration of Independence!"
These beatings and thrashings continued as John Randolph, James Monroe and 66 other early Americans came in and unleashed their anger on the
Muslim terrorist leader. As Osama lay bleeding and writhing in unbearable pain an Angel appeared.

Bin Laden wept in pain and said to the angel, "This is not what you promised me." The Angel replied, "I told you there would be
72 Virginians waiting for you in heaven. What did you think I said, you idiot?"

hal, halk, westword........Call my commentary immature all you like.......What I say is the truth. The REAL (Hal) is known by all of us.

Remember, immature, mature, the comments are true in nature and are factual. Islamists/Jihadists are my target, so deal with it.

Westword.....got it, sorry.

Palestinian children have to be saved - from their parents and teachers. Children in the U.S. and Israel who are subjected to child abuse are taken away from their parents. I say that they all be taken away to be raised in Israel and the U.S. by Jews and Christians. I bet that many of them are descendents of former Jews and Christians who had been forced to convert to Islam anyway!!

infidel23,

As your comments mention, the only people clamouring
for reforms in Islam are 'infidels'.

I hope that will change soon.

Make no mistake, Sharia will come to America. It probably will be implemented in Canada before it is established over the entire United States, but come it will.

Posted by Reza at May 27, 2004 10:44 PM

Well, Reza....I must say that your repetitive rhetoric is truly amazing. However, if Sharia law comes to America, does this mean we all get to inflict great physical damage to all who believe in, and adhere to it?

Does it mean that if we see one of you Jihadis raping your relative, beating your wife, stealing, lying, planting bombs, or swinging machetes, that we're permitted to destroy you?

I'm somewhat confused. Help us out on this if you will. Exactly what do we get to do to radical Muslims if Sharia goes into place? I can't wait to hear how we're going to be able to dismantle you once and for all......

"They're not waiting for their 72 prepubescent virgins. The sex trade is rampant in these dusty little countries."

You have no idea how right you are. At Stewart ANG/ Stewart International in Newburgh, NY, a Boeing 747 is parked out of the way on the tarmac. Rumor among ANG and civilian personnel is that it has been there since being impounded from an un-named arab royal who was drugging American prostitutes and runaways in NYC, and flying them to the Middle East as sex slaves over 8 years ago.

What I find absolutely humerous is the fact that it is the Leftist culture of America that the Moslems hate - and it is the Leftists that can't seem to find anything wrong with what Islam does regarding women homosexuals. Where is their outrage? Are they even aware that homosexuals escape into Israel from the PA areas in order to save their lives?? These Leftists are really loony!! Or is it simply "The enemy of my enemy is my friend?"

That was supposed to be "women and homosexuals."

It IS very ironic, I'll agree.

Am I understanding this correctly: Muslims want Sharia law to replace the constitution, but at the same time they are complaining that the constitution is not being followed? How can you want to eliminate the contitution, but at the same time want it adhered to? It seems as though they just respect the constitution when it is convenient for them to do so.

lmc: welcome.........It's called living by lying, double standards, and most of all......Double Talk.

I hate to admit my ignorance, but what's the deal with (swt) after Allah?

stupid white turban

Gee, I thought it meant "sheet wearing twit"

Dear Reza !

As a grandmother and a Dane who loves her country I can tell You one thing for sure :

We will fight You, Islam and Sharia.
Winston Churchill said :" and we will never surrender."

We have almost got enough of You and Your people.
In Europe we have undergrundgroups who are preparing the populations for the comming battle.And this battle will be between the West and Islam.
I don`t hate You, I don`t hate Islam. I just don`t want You, Your people and Islam in my country, in Scandinavia or in Europe. We are an old Wiking nation - and we will continue to be so.
Will You PLEASE open the ball(battle) ?
ODIN AND THOR be with You!

Dream Team said:". .they are on the bottom of the economic, cultural, and political trash pile."

You bet. That's because they have made reason immoral. They can't think, they can't ask questions, they don't innovate, they have no patents to speak of, they have almost no books translated into Arabic, no high-tech companies outsource to them, they have few computers and use almost no search engines--it's pathetic. No wonder they are miserable and angry; they obviously do not lack intelligence, but they are condemned to burn in hell if they dare use it!

Someone (I don't CARE who,it's hilarious!) said:

"No! I am Mahmoud, and I hereby renounce Islam. Now please give me the url to some blonde babe websites, and get me a beer. Long live the USA!"

KAMA, do you have any more like that? It cracked me up--72 Virginians! I was laughing so hard I cried!

Chaya said: "Palestinian children have to be saved - from their parents and teachers. Children in the U.S. and Israel who are subjected to child abuse are taken away from their parents. I say that they all be taken away to be raised in Israel and the U.S. by Jews and Christians. I bet that many of them are descendents of former Jews and Christians who had been forced to convert to Islam anyway!!"

Chaya, you come so close to the only permanent solution (education) that my stomach hurts in frustration--maybe SOMEDAY we will find ourselves in a position where we will recognize the need to adopt it.

There is much neurodevelopmental (and historical) evidence to support the contention that the overwhelming majority of children carry into adulthood the thinking they learn as children, and that efforts to change their minds in adulthood are, for the most part, quite futile.

I agree with you that education from the earliest age is necessary to break the cycle of "murder thy neighbors." If the cycle is not broken through education, the thinking and behaviors that have persisted for the last 1400 years will continue indefinitely.

Are there any people who retain their humanity despite being born Muslim? Of course there are, but they are too few to fight the battle alone. Their ranks must be increased through the education of those who are not strong enough to retain their humanity on their own.

Unless Islam undergoes very fundamental changes in its ethics and epistemology, it will continue to produce a population of killbots, of people who can no longer think, who dare not ask questions, who cannot innovate, and who, because of this suppression of their nature as human beings, will continue to play the role of professional victims, people who are miserable and unhappy because they believe themselves to be oppressed by others, and who will remain failures for the foreseeable future because they do not take the responsibility for their own misery and frustration.

Listen, people, there are some really great posts on all sorts of subjects--maybe there could be a "Best Of" collection someday!

Opviews;

swt = This is the Acronym for "Subhanahu wa ta'ala" meaning "Allah is pure of having partners and He is exalted from having a son."

Which, with reference to the second part, of course, isn't true.

regards,
kc

Reza, yes, I "dare point the finger" at Islam and sharia. However not out of the sense of false moral superiority you have. I point out the obvious flaws in your logic and religion not because we are better than you, but because you are no better than us. Islam is full of contradictions, wrongs and injustice. The problem is that you refuse to admit your system is imperfect because to do so you have to be honest with yourself and admit that it is a man made system and not given by God. In this specific case for example, I have not criticized this couple. I have criticized their son for giving them so much trouble and not supporting them, as a good son should do. I have criticized their Mosque for dismissing the old man and I "point the finger" at the other Muslims for not coming to this couple's aid and supporting them financially and spiritually in their time of need. Shame on them! I have pointed out that it is apparently we infidels who are helping to take care of this couple with our welfare. If you are insulted by the truth that is not my fault. I have posted items on how Mohammed is not like Moses. You will not comment on them because you cannot deny what I have said. I have commentd on the errors in your Koran as in where it says the moon was once a sun. You are afraid to go near that one also. You will not comment on the good the USA is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. You support murderers and terrorists. You hope that by ignoring the real topics and distracting us with your accusations you can play the shame and blame game and make us feel guilty. It won't work. You have failed to defend Islam and the Koran by not answering these challenges and you know what that means. I'm starting a long weekend, so rant and rave alll yo want while I'm away. But remember that it is the American servicemen and women who have made your freedom of speech here possible, and thank one if you see him or her. God bless the USA.

Opviews and KC:
actually, KC, you are wrong. (SWT) does stand for subhana wa ta'ala, but it does not mean
"Allah is pure of having partners and He is exalted from having a son." it actually means "Glorified be He, the Most High". really, you must check your resources before you say something. you can check using the arabic language also- there is no word meanig "partners" or "son" or anything you said. dont make false claims; let muslims answer at least these kind of questions.
Hal: where in the quran does it say that "the moon was once a sun"?
"the good the USA is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.". what good? who asked america to go and liberate the iraqi people? if the iraqis did need the americans, there would be no fighting going on in Iraq today, america v. iraq. "You support murderers and terrorists." murderers and terrorists in what sense? that they are defending what is rightfully their land (Palestine)? or that they are trying to get rid of people that are doing them no good (Iraq)?
"Islam is full of contradictions, wrongs and injustice." oh, come off of it.
God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
i could go on and on and on- there are more then a hundred others. look before you leap- dont make accusations unless you know what you look like.

Aliyah:

"the good the USA is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.". what good?

For starters, repairing the damage caused by three decades of living under a totalitarian despot.

who asked america to go and liberate the iraqi people?

Liberating the Iraqi people wasn't the primary reason we went there, as you very well know. Removing one of the world's most dangerous regimes was.

if the iraqis did need the americans, there would be no fighting going on in Iraq today, america v. iraq.

The fighting going on today in Iraq has nothing whatsoever to do with Iraqis defending their country against foreign invaders, or any other such crap, and you damn well know it.

The fighting going on in Iraq today is nothing more than different groups trying to prevent the establishment of a democratic government.

Aliyah:

You wanted some examples of contradictions in the Qur'an. Here you are:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html

Internal Contradictions:
And it just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.
Further numerical discrepancies Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? --- How many gardens are there in paradise? ONE [as stated in 39:73, 41:30, 57:21, 79:41] or MANY [18:31, 22:23, 35:33, 78:32]? --- According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. --- There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42]
Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]. But Gabriel had 600 wings. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455]
How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]
Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.
Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], "Be! And it is".
Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].
Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]
Fully Detailed Or Incomplete? The Qur'an claims for itself to be (fully) detailed, that nothing is left out of the book [6:38, 6:114, 12:111, 16:89 etc.]. However there are plenty of important issues which are left unclear in the Qur'an. This article discusses the confusion found in the quranic statements on wine.
Worshiping the Same or a Different God? Muhammad is commanded to speak to the disbelievers: ... nor do you worship what I worship [109:3]. However, other verses in the Qur'an state clearly that those disbelieving his message are in fact worshiping the same God, Allah.
To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur'an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.
Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4].
The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
How merciful is Allah's mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].
Will there be inquiry in Paradise? "neither will they question one another" [23:101] but nevertheless they will be "engaging in mutual inquiry" [52:25], "and they will ... question one another" [37:27].
Are angels protectors? "NO protector besides Allah" [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: "We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter." And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].
Is everything devoutly obedient to Allah? That is the claim in 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.
Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71]. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.
The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].
Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate." [68:49]
Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].
Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].
How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].
Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty." [2:34].
Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [2:97], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]? The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.
The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur'an since the Qur'an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.
Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.
"An old woman" and God's character About the story of Lot: "So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind." [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.
More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.
The "pleasure" of Allah? Is God's action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?
Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").
What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.
Was Noah driven out? "Before them *the people of Noah* rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, 'Here is One possessed!' And he was driven out." [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is building the ark since we read "Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of *his people* passed by him, they threw ridicule on him." [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.
Pharaoh's Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?
Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can't happen.
Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?
What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?
Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur'an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur'an accuses the Jews of Muhammad's day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.
Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say "No".
God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]
Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].
When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?
When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]
Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?
Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur'an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].
Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.
Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.
Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].
Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.
Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.
Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.
Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).
One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.
From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.
Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].
Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur'an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.
Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc., see article for details].

Wow. Aliyah. Are we having fun yet? I look forward to your point by point refutation of each of the above.

lobo, you said: "Liberating the Iraqi people wasn't the primary reason we went there, as you very well know. Removing one of the world's most dangerous regimes was." well, by removing "one of the world's most dangerous regimes", wouldnt that be conisdered freeing the Iraqi people? after all, it is the iraqis that live under the regime. if the regime is removed, who 'benifits'? the people. DUH. what was the ppoint of that staement anyway?
"The fighting going on today in Iraq has nothing whatsoever to do with Iraqis defending their country against foreign invaders, or any other such crap, and you damn well know it." oh, so whats it for? sucking the oil out of the land? if america had never gone to Iraq, the fighting would never have happened, period.

"They obviously want nothing but the 'good' Sharia for America" LOL... Mahmoud, most *sane* people call persons working to kill, maim, or violently force others into a way of life they'd rather not have TERRORISTS. Certainly seems your camp favors that appelation for our troops while attempting to track down a$$pains with ak's.
So,(using your, er, -logic-) why are your scruffy townfolk "persecuting" our troops that only want a peacful and merciful better life for your ilk?

Aliyah, I'll try to keep this short as I have plans this weekend. Excuse any typos. Nobody was talking about Palestine, but since you quoted the Bible you surely know that God gave it to the Jews and they returned to it at exactly the date prophesied by Daniel. Re: the good done in Iraq, see my previous comments and the letter from Sgt Ray Reynolds in another thread. You are ignorant of the true Bible although you seem to have a rudimentary knowledge, enough to mislead you and make you feel good. Because Mary was a virgin when she became pregnant, Matthew lists Joseph only as the husband of Mary, not the father of Jesus. Matthew's genealogy gives Jesus' legal, i.e. royal, lineage through Joseph as his adopted father to show he is descended from King David and entitled to claim the throne. Mary's lineage is recorded in Luke 3:23-38. It illustrates how Jesus is descended from Kings and Prophets on both sides of his earthly family. Matthew traced Jesus line back to Abraham, while Luke traces Jesus line back to Adam. Since Matthew was writing his book to a predominately Jewish audience, he showed Jesus as a descendent of Abraham. Luke wrote his book to a Greek or Gentile (non-Jewish) audience and so showed Jesus as the savior of all mankind. Both accounts are correct and dovetail perfectly, but if someone doesn't understand everything that is going on they may well get confused. I can address the other points you raised later, I'm short on time now, but basically when you take text out of its' context, you create a pretext. Re: Solomon and the seeming discrepency in the accounting of his stables, he had more than one set of stables and the account records one in one city and another somewhere else. He was rich, he had a lot. Simple. It's like Mr. X had a Ferrari and a Porsche. One person would say "I say Mr. X driving a Ferrari", and another would say "No! I saw him driving a Porsche!" The would both be right, not contradicting each other. I'll give you the sources for the Koran Monday or Tuesday. L8R. Have a good weekend and remember to thank a serviceman or woman for your freedoms. God bless the USA.

Hmm. Why exactly should I give you a point by point refutation, when you did not do so with mine?
I will do some that I can do off the top of my head using COMMON SENSE. “Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]. But Gabriel had 600 wings.” Hmm… maybe Jibrael (Gabriel) was a very important angel- he was the one who brought down the revelations to the Prophets. “Six or eight days of creation?” is it not possible that more then one thing was done per day? “Quick or Slow Creation?” Allah (SWT) created the earth as such because He wanted to show how beautifully intricate He made the earth. “Heavens or Earth? Which was created first?” never in these ayahs did Allah specify that He made either first. “Calling together or ripping apart?” 41:11: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." 21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation). What exactly was your point? “What was man created from?” the 1st man was created from dust, which happens to be the same as the earth, or clay. And then, all others were created from a blood clot (I don’t believe explanation is required.) “Worshiping the Same or a Different God? Muhammad is commanded to speak to the disbelievers: ... nor do you worship what I worship [109:3]. However, other verses in the Qur'an state clearly that those disbelieving his message are in fact worshiping the same God, Allah.” How are people disbelieving in Islam following the message of Islam? I am sure you are flawed. “To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question!” intercession is possible of Allah allows it. “Where is Allah and his throne?” Allah, not in His being, but that He is always watching every single action- in that sense, he is closer then the jugular vein. Yet he is on his throne, in the sky. “The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?” in essence, since Allah created Satan and ourselves, so it is all of the above. “Are angels protectors?” Allah protects through things. I’m sure that when you slip, Jesus does not come in his real form and save you from slipping; it is some other factor. “Does Allah forgive shirk?” I need not remind you the story of Moses, which this verse discusses. If you don’t know it, look it up, and see their punishments after denying the oneness of Allah. “Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate."” He was cast off on the shore, but the shore had food so he could survive. The second verse says ‘naked shore’- as in, no vegetation. “How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].” Behind their backs are the worst, and the bad people get it in their right. “Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty."” And thus, his position now- the devil. “The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.” AS IN… “The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages?” notice the AND between the words ‘speech’ and ‘indeed’. This word usually refers to a second topic; not continuing the same one. The MESSAGE of the Quran was originally that of the Torah and Injil. That is, before everyone changed it to fit their needs. “Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not?” it was, before the Jews and Christians changed it. “Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.” Lot’s wife was NOT among the believers. “While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols.” These, if you actually read the verse, refer to two different happenings: one when his father was speaking to him, and one when he broke the idols. DUH. “Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved.” Was not saved: 10:92 says, 10:92 "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" Save thee in the body, meaning his body was saved. Not his soul.
Sorry, Mentat, but I cant do more, because I did not simply copy and paste my responses. And, by the way, I do expect refutations for the Bible verses I presented to you, at least as many as i did.

"You are ignorant of the true Bible although you seem to have a rudimentary knowledge, enough to mislead you and make you feel good." as other people on this site do... and i am not the only one with rudimentary knowledge: you all have rudimentary knowledge about Islam and base your opinions on that distorted view.

Solomon's overseers
550 in I Kings 9:23
250 in II Chron 8:10
The mother of Abijah:
Maachah the daughter of Absalom 2 Chron 9:20
Michaiah the daughter of Uriel 2 Chron 13:2
When did Baasha die?
26th year of the reign of Asa I Kings 16:6-8
36th year of the reign of Asa I 2 Chron 16:1
How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
22 in 2 Kings 8:26
42 in 2 Chron 22:2
Who was Josiah's successor?
Jehoahaz - 2 Chron 36:1
Shallum - Jeremiah 22:11
What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
scarlet - Matthew 27:28
purple John 19:2
What did they give him to drink?
vinegar - Matthew 27:34
wine with myrrh - Mark 15:23
which book had the "numerical discrepancies", exactly?

On the day of judgment when we gather all the people, we will ask the idol-worshipers, 'Where are your idols whom you set up beside Allah?' Then, their only answer will be, 'By Allah our Lord, we were not idol-worshipers.' Note how they lied even to themselves, and note that the idols they had set up will abandon them." (Holy Koran 6:22-24)

Aliyah
May Almighty Allah (swt) protect you wherever you go and he shall support you on earth and you will be in paradise etenrally. May Allah protect you.
You are taking your time to convience infidels to embrace Holy Islam and live in peace with the rest of the Muslim brother and sisters.

and where would we be without inventions made by muslims?
Abul Hasan is distinguished as the inventor of the Telescope, which he described to be a “Tube, to the extremities of which were attached diopters".
The Pendulum was invented by Ibn Yunus, a genius in science who lived in the reign of Aziz Billah and Hakim bi-Amr-illah, the Fatimid monarchs of Egypt. The invention of the Pendulum led to the measurement of time by its oscillations. His outstanding work Sijul Akbar al-Hakimi, named after his celebrated patron Hakim bi-Amr-illah, was acknowledged to be the masterpiece on the subject replacing the work of Ptolemy. It was translated into Persian by Omar Khayyam in 1079.
The Watch
The first watch was made by Kutbi, a renowned
watch-maker of his time. During the Abbasid reign the use of a watch became quite common and the famous Harun-ar-Rashid once despatched a watch as a gift to his celebrated contemporary, the French Emperor Charlemagne. At that time a watch was considered a novel thing in Europe and was regarded as an object of wonder. Mustansariya, the well-known university of Baghdad had a unique clock with a dial blue like the sky and a sun which continually moved over its surface denoting the time. Maulana Shibli, the famous Urdu litterateur, has described a watch of Damascus in the following words:
"The watch was kept in the door of a wall. It
contained copper plates and twelve doors. There was an Eagle (Bat) standing in the Ist and the last plate. At the end of each hour, these two eagles lay down on the copper plates and hence a sound was produced to show the time. At twelve all the doors were closed. This
system was being repeated continuously".
The construction of water clocks was also common in Islamic Countries. "The Arabs were skilful in the construction of clepsydras and water clocks with automata," says a European writer.
The invention of Mariners Compass, which
revolutionised sea borne commerce and oceanic shipping and enabled the Arabs to roam over the stormy seas in quest of new lands and additional markets for their commodities, is essentially a contribution of the Muslims to the world of science. Knowledge about the properties of the needle, can no doubt be traced to Chinese sources, but putting it into working shape, in the form of a mariners' compass, was the achievement of Muslim scientists. The
compass was invented for the purpose of finding out the Qibla for Prayers.
Mir Fatehullah Khan is known to history as the
inventor of gun and gunpowder. The presumption that gunpowder was first made by the Chinese does not stand the test of historical research. Writing in his book Arab Civilization, the author says that "gunpowder was a great invention of the Arabs who were already using
guns". Guns were used by Arabs in 1340 A.D. in the defence of Al-Bahsur, when Franzdol besieged it. The statement of Dr. Leabon about the invention of gunpowder by the Arabs is further corroborated by Mr. Scott in his well-known work, History of the Moorish
Empire in Spain. "It has been acknowledged by Joseph Hell in his book, Arab Civilization, that the distinction of inventing photography goes to Ibn al-Hashem, who is not only credited with its invention but also its development.
Muhammad Musa, a great scholar of geography, has the unique distinction of being the inventor of an instrument by which the earth could be measured. He also invented the "Astrolabe". These novel instruments invented by him have been preserved in the Museum of
Madrid (Spain)."
A unique instrument was invented by Abu Solet Umayyah in 1134 A.D. through which a sunken ship would be raised - which greatly helped in the salvage expeditions of mediaeval times.
Manufacturing Soap, Paper and Cloth
The credit for manufacturing soap goes to Arab
chemists, who introduced it to the world.
The first paper in Islamic countries was manufactured
in 794 A.D. in Baghdad by Yusuf Bin Omar. The paper
manufactured in Arab countries was of superior quality than that made in Europe. A paper mill was established in Baghdad, and soon
paper replaced parchment (skin of animals) and papyrus ('paper' made from plants). the development of paper made knowledge and learning easier, for more people were able to have access to it. In the manufacture of cloth, Muslims particularly in Spain exhibited marvellous skill and taste. Their woven cloth captured almost all the big markets of the world and was considered to be the finest as well as extremely durable.
The Windmill
Al-Masudi who died in Cairo in 957 A.D. may be called the "Pliny of the Arabs" In his celebrated work The Meadows of Gold, he has described an earthquake, and the first windmill which was also invented by a Muslim.
Astronomy and Navigation
Giralda or "The Tower of Seville", was the first
observatory in Europe. It was built in 1190 A.D., in the Spanish town of Seville under the supervision of the celebrated Mathematician, Jabir Ibn Afiah. It was meant for the observation of heavenly bodies. It was
later turned into a belfry by Christian conquerors, who, after the expulsion of the Moors, did not know how to use it.

The many references to astronomy in the Qur'an and
hadith, and the injunctions to learn, inspired the
early Muslim scholars to study the heavens. They
integrated the earlier works of the Indians, Persians
and Greeks into a new synthesis.
Ptolemy (a 2nd Century Greek writer)'s 'Almagest' (the
title as we know it today is actually Arabic) was
translated, studied and criticized. Muslims were
inspired to investigate and study the Earth, the
features of the land, methods of mapping and so on. Many new stars were discovered, as we see in their Arabic names - Algol, Deneb, Betelgeuse, Rigel, Aldebaran. Astronomical tables were compiled, among them the Toledan tables, which were used by Copernicus, Tycho Brahe and Kepler.
These works were used to determine the direction of Makkah from various locations, to improve navigation and surveying, and establishing correct time keeping and calanders.
Using longitude and latitude, calculating the
circumference of the Earth within a few hundred miles, the Muslim geographers so greatly improved on Ptolemy's famous 'Almagest', that it is not certain how much of the work actually belongs to the famous Greek, and how much was added to successive copies.
Also compiled were almanacs - another Arabic term. Other terms from Arabic are zenith, nadir, Aledo, azimuth. Muslim astronomers were the first to establish observatories, like the one built at Mugharah by Hulagu, the son of Genghis Khan, in Persia, and they invented instruments such as the quadrant and astrolabe, which led to advances not only in astronomy but in oceanic navigation, contributing to the European age of exploration.
Other instruments used by muslim astronomers and
navigators were the quadrant and the planisphere, a large, complicated device for plotting stars. Observatories were set up in desert locations where the best observations could be made. Accurate measurement of time used very similar mathematical skills to those needed for navigation. Al-Biruni, for example, wrote a mathematical treatise on shadows that
helped calibrate sundials accurately.

The Astrolobe is perhaps the most famous of Islamic inventions. Primitive astrolobes were developed by the Greeks, but the refinements made by the Muslim Mathematicians, and craftsmen made them more accurate and versatile.
When the device entered Europe through Spain and
Italy, it was the latest in high technology. In the storyteller of 'The Canterbury Tales', Geoffery Chaucer, wrote instructions on its use. The well-known romance of Heloise and Abelard resulted in a son they named - Astrolobe!
Mathematics
Bold experiments and unique innovations in the field of mathematics were carried out by Muslim
mathematicians who developed this science to an
exceptionally high degree. Algebra may be said to have been invented by the Greeks, but according to Oelsner, "it was confined to furnishing amusement for the plays
of the goblet" Muslims developed it and applied it to higher purposes. Thus, The first great Muslim mathematician, Al-Khawarizmi, invented the subject of algebra(al-Jabr), which was further developed by others, most notably Umar Khayyam. Al-Khawarizmi's work, in Latin
translation, brought the Arabic numerals along with the mathematics to Europe, through Spain. The word "algorithm" is derived from his name.
The Muslims invented the symbol for zero (The word "cipher" comes from Arabic sifr), and they organized the numbers into the decimal system - base 10. Additionally, they invented the symbol to express an unknown quantity, i.e. variables like x.
They invented spherical trigonometry, discovered the tangent and were first, "to introduce the sine of arc in Trigonometrical Calculations" Zero is an invaluable addition made to mathematical science by the Muslims.
They have also shown remarkable progress in
mathematical geography.
Medical Sciences
The Muslims have made a lasting contribution to the development of Medical Science. Razi (Rhazes), Ibn Sina (Avicenna), and Abu Ali al-Hasan (Alhazen) were the greatest medical scholars of mediaeval times. Al-Razi, known in the West as Rhazes, the famous physician and scientist, (d. 932), was the inventor of
"Seton" in Surgery and the author of 'Al-Judari wal Hasbak', an authentic book dealing with measles and small pox.
Seen as one of the greatest physicians in the world in the Middle Ages, Razi stressed empirical observation and clinical medicine and was unrivalled as a diagnostician. He also wrote a treatise on hygiene in hospitals.
Kahaf Abul-Qasim Al-Sahabi was a very famous surgeon in the eleventh century, known in Europe for his work, 'Kitab al-Tasrif' (Concessio).
Avicenna wrote 'Al-Qanun Jil Tib known as Cannon', which was the most widely studied medical work of mediaevel times and was reprinted more than twenty times during the last 30 years of the 15th century in
many different languages. The book remained a standard textbook even in Europe, for over 700 years. Alhazen was the world's greatest authority on "optics".
The contagious character of the plague and its
remedies were discovered by Ibn Katina, a Moorish
Physician.
Other significant contributions were made in
pharmacology, such as Ibn Sina's 'Kitab al-Shifa'
(Book of Healing), and in public health. Every major
city in the Islamic world had a number of excellent hospitals, some of them teaching hospitals, and many of them were specialized for particular diseases, including mental and emotional. The Ottomans were particularly noted for their building of hospitals and
for the high level of hygiene practiced in them.
Glass
Ibn Firnas is credited with making glass from stones. He had constructed his home as a sort df planetarium where one could see stars, clouds and even lightning.

Mahmoud:
same to you, inshallah Allah (SWT) will reward you for defending your religion from attacks by nonmuslims. even if we dont completly turn the hearts of anyone, all the jews and christians and aethists wil know that there are educated Muslims out there that are willing to defend their religion with everthing they have.

Aliyah,
As Almighty Allah(swt) says in Holy Koran, Shaitan al-rajim is covering the eyes and hearts of non-believers with a black curtain and they can not see the truth of Islam. That is why you see so many anti-muslims and christian opressors in this site but May Allah support us, we will stay strong and show them how to learn more about Almighty Allah(swt) and Holy Islam. Thanks to Allah there are more and more people embracing to live in peace with their Muslim brother and sisters.

That's great aliyah, and we'll defend ourselves against people like you with everything we have.

aliyah,

That wasa fascinating history. Thank you.

Can you tell me more about Islamic advances in science and technolgy? I'd love to hear some of its more recent advances.

Aliyah:

I am not religious. I could care less whether the Bible or the Qur'an or the Guru Granth or any other religious text for that matter has contradictions or other theological problems. I just enjoy annoying you. The only thing that I desire is that you Muslims will give up your dream of taking over the world and leave the rest of us alone. All I want is peaceful co-existence. But, because that is apparently impossible, we are at war.

Mahmoud,

Good news! We do see the truth of Islam!

In every mass grave.

In every "honor" killing.

In every suicide bombing.

In every lie, twist of facts, and distortion of truth.

In every shattered Arab economy. In every Muslim child's face of anguish and dispair.

We clearly see Islam. It is you who is too afraid to look in the mirror.

These people just done -get- it. The only reason we are a great country is because of the way we live. Our ability to use our civil society to advance ourselves. Sharia law would only bring us to where the the Islamic world are now. Paranoid and angry. No advancement there!
The only time in history when Islam was advancing was when they had defeated or converted all the civilizations around them. They then had nothing better to do.

Aliya,

I normally find after some research that just about every great discovery/invention/idea that Muslims claim for "Islam" was actually appropriated from the Greeks, Hindus, pre-Islamic Persians etc.

"The contagious character of the plague and its
remedies were discovered by Ibn Katina, a Moorish
Physician."

If so, was that because he was a good Muslim who followed the Sunnah of his prophet to the letter? I somehow doubt it, considering Allah's Messenger DENIED that diseases were contagious.

why are people trying to discuss religion with this "aliyah" creature, when in her postings on the berg thread she quite clearly expressed approval for hitlers murder of millions of jewish men, women and children? how on earth does anyone think they can have a dialogue with nazi sympathisers ?

ultach:
give me one quote that "clearly expresses approval for hitlers murder of millions of jewish men, women and children?"
and Bob Owens, you know where you would be without the inventions of Muslims. most probably wouldnt even be alive, knowing that Muslims were the ones who made immunizations for many diseases.

" I somehow doubt it, considering Allah's Messenger DENIED that diseases were contagious."
????
and trevor, if inventing things shows that "They had nothing better to do", you must be an extremely ungrateful person.

at least we did this much for the world. i dont see anyone else making inventions, except for the wonderful Einstein, who made the atomic bomb...

short memory or something? go back to the postings on the berg story - the bit about hitler "giving the jews a right lesson" . nauseating. so now you invented the hypodermic needle, what's tomorrows scientific revelation, arabs were carrying out triple bypass surgery in the middle ages?, no, let me guess, you already went to the moon but the jews copied your spaceship design and went there after you to wipe out all the traces of the first arabs on the moon?

Aliyah..

Why would you expect us to believe what you say about Islam or anything else? Muslims LIE.
Which is exactly why no muslim can be trusted. You are Egomanical brainwashed liars, that think you have a god behind you.

If you expect ANY esteem please post your credible NON Muslim references when you make your outlandish claims about Islam...

Islam is responsible for centuries of holding multitudes of people in brainwashed slavery...and nothing more...

The current Economic/health/educational statistics from any Islamic country tells us all anyone needs to know about Islam...And they paint a very ugly picture.

"at least we did this much for the world. i dont see anyone else making inventions, except for the wonderful Einstein, who made the atomic bomb..."

aliyah must have pretty bad eyesight if she can't even see the computer in front of her.

CORRECTION - further to my earlier post, the name of the person who made the quote about hitler was Nisren, not Aliyah. The quote i was referring to was - "and dont forget the history of the jews and hitler, rember hinm rite because he gave the jews one good of a lesson" - i have included the typing/spelling errors in the original- if you, Aliyah, disagree with this kind of comment then i'm more than happy to apologise for getting your name mixed up with this Nisren person, i'm sure that you or any other decent human being whatever their religion is would be nauseated by them, because i really am!

I am so sick of the whinning from the Muslims in this country (USA) and through out the world. They just can't face reality that the longer their religion exists, the more it sucks the life out of them, their communities, their countries. Rather than take a hard look at themselves they continue to point the finger at anyone who is better off .... They only way they seem to be able to muster any enthusiasm or energy is to rail against the WEST. React rather than act. A total victim stance... one they seem to love .... it is disgusting.... if Islam was such a great religion, then why haven't the rich Islamic regimes lifted their people up... Oh yeah... the West has corrupted them....The Muslims humiliate themselves... over and over again.... pathetic...