Sarin Nerve Agent Bomb Explodes in Iraq

I can hardly wait to see how the left spins this story...

comeon wingnuts i thought you guys would be going nuts with glee over this one

Bush is and was RIGHT we are justified in going into Iraq now will the lib terrorist supporters get on the right side or will they be like Berg and think they would never harm me! Oh My!!!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her fighting forces and all who fight with her give them strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Is our CIA going to stop fighting with Bush and do what we pay them for or should we fire all CIA

Joseph:

comeon wingnuts i thought you guys would be going nuts with glee over this one

I can't speak for any "wingnuts," but I know I certainly have no reason to be gleeful over having been proven right.

Let me know how gleeful you are when the contents of one of those rounds is introduced into your office building's ventilation system.

comeon wingnuts i thought you guys would be going nuts with glee over this one

Posted by joseph at May 17, 2004 01:03 PM

Joseph, this isn't anything for anyone to be happy about. It was there, and it's been found. If anyone should be gleeful, it should be you. You should be happy that the United States wasn't so off the mark with their statements.

Joseph:

The Turkish government makes all imams state employees, dictates what the Friday sermons will state and controls the curricula of religious education. Is the entire Turkish government composed of wingnuts?

The Singapore Government approves or appoints all Islamic religious authorities, controls the curricula of religous schools and decides what is or is not "false doctrine". Is the entire Singapore government composed of wingnuts?

The French government is talking about taking control of the education of all Islamic clerics in France. Is the entire French government composed of wingnuts?

The Spanish government is talking about taking control of the education of Imams as well. Is the entire Spanish government composed of wingnuts?

I have news for you Joseph. We are very sane and rational people reacting to the threat posed by insane and irrational people such as yourself. And believe me, in a fight between reason and unreason, the nutty people are not going to win. And you know why? Because your very nuttiness stops you from being effective fighters for your cause. In Western countries, if you do not have effective and sound arguments, you will not be heard and your arguments will not be considered.

When Islamists propose the introduction of Sharia law in Western countries, and people in those countries actually learn what Sharia law is, they are horrified. When people in Western countries learn what the Qu'ran, Hadith and Sharia actually say, they are horrified.

We in the west have already fought tremendous battles with irrational forces. We are going to win in this case too because we are FREE societies. THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM WILL COME OUT! The forces of reason WILL triumph.

technically what is there is no where near what you where sold by the administration before the war. which was a massive arsenal of weapons with commanders on the ground given the go ahead to launch these munitions at the american forces as soon as the crossed the border. the real question here is are there more and not a handful but large hidden stockpiles and is it of recent manufactur as in the past 5-7 years. before the war the iraqi's turned up some banned munition they where like 5 rusted morter rounds that had at one point contained mustard gas and a shell of something they called a chemical bomb which was this round sphere with holes in it to release a chemical agent i believe it was also rusted and appeared to be of little use. now if these 2 artillery shells that turned up then lead to some large buried stockpile then its a big deal but if they turn out to be some munitions that snuck through the cracks during the destruction phase in the early 90's then this is not catagoric proof that saddam was maintaining a wmd force. hopefully we will find out in the coming days...

Joseph:

technically what is there is no where near what you where sold by the administration before the war. which was a massive arsenal of weapons with commanders on the ground given the go ahead to launch these munitions at the american forces as soon as the crossed the border.

Leaving aside the obvious fact that you have no earthly idea "what is there," it's worth noting that it wasn't just people in the West who were told that chemical weapons had been distributed to Iraqi combat units with orders to use them. Several of Saddam's former division commanders have said that they were told the same thing.

By the way, as someone who's spent more than 20 years working in the chemical/biological defense field, I can assure you that under the right conditions, even a very small quantity of sarin is very definitely "a big deal."

If John "Flipper" Kerry wants McCain as his V.P. I think Bush should tap Joe Lieberman to fill in for Cheney!!! Now THAT would be interesting..eh?

joseph:

Apparently you are not up to speed on WMD's - satellite photos of them being transferred to Syria, then to Lebanon, and an article on this very site about Syrians and their "heavy equipment" blowing up a North Korean train while trying to get the stuff out of Syria before the U.S. loses patience and imposes more than economic sanctions (another article on this site). Do you ever read articles here, or do you just post to vent your hostility?

Mentat:

Great post. You always seem to live up to your name!

We are doomed if John "Flipper" Kerry wins in Nov.

actually lobo your statement further proves the point how embarrassing must it be for the most expensive intelligence agencys in the world to be bamboozled by the iraqi informants,spys,etc. One thing I want answered is who told fox news the one about "saddams commanders have been given the greenlight to use chemical weapons as soon as the us troops cross the border" cause that BOLD headline turned up on foxnews like a week before the invasion . did they just make it up or did the administration leak that one to them. Now lets get something straight before i get flamed to death cause i know you guys are just chomping at the bit. I did not believe in the large stockpiles of chemical weapons nor the 1-5 years for a nuclear weapon and the missles that could hit the west coast. but I did think there was a large possibility that during and after the invasion a small amount of morter and howizter rounds would have turned up because personally for a country that problably had more then 10,000 of these munitions its probably very easy for some to slip by and not get destroyed. especially in the pitiful state of the military after the first gulf war.

"Two people were treated for "minor exposure," but no serious injuries were reported"

How can you get minor exposure to something where a pinhead size droplet means certain death?

Joseph,

You might just want to hold your righteous indignation about what we were “sold” for a while. In addition to the sarin found in the most recent shell, a shell containing mustard gas was found two weeks ago in another IED. The mustard gas shell is believed to be one of 550 that went unaccounted for when Saddam made his weapons declaration before Operation Freedom commenced in 2003.

It also wouldn’t matter when a munitions was manufactured; what matters is how long it remains militarily viable. We have “non-viable” un-exploded ordinance on old artillery ranges in my home state. The ranges in questions haven’t been actively used for 30 years or more, but the old rusty shells still turn Bambi into burger with surprising frequency.

Luigi,

These were binary shells, that were supposed to remain stable until fired, and then mix into a potent mixture in flight. As they were not fired, only detonated, they didn’t have a chance to mix properly.

Luigi:

Given prompt (meaning immediate) medical care, exposure to nerve agents is not equal to "certain death".

Since most of the world's professional armies equip their soldiers with protective suits, masks and effective first aid, chemical weapons are really not all that useful against military targets.

Properly employed, however, they could wreak tremendous havoc among civilian populations.

That possibility is what keeps those of us who work in the field up at night.

CGW please show me the proof because if this was true then the united states would be asking for syria/lebanon to turn them over. I suspect that israel has tons of spys in lebanon and probably be able to verify this.

joseph:

The U.S HAS been asking for the WMD's to be turned over! Israel HAS verified it! Where have you been?

On this site, read May 14 "Syrian President Rejects U.S. Sanctions, Refuses to Expel Palestinian Militants". That's just one tiny article - the U.S.' request for the WMD's has been all over the news for months.

Also on this site, read May 16 "Syrians, 'equipment' Were in N. Korean Train Blast". The Syrians have been getting nervous that the Israelis and the U.S., who know where the weapons are, might just decide to "blow" them on their own, inside both Syria and Lebanon, which would hardly be healthy for either area, so they're trying to get as many of the out of the area as they can (to N. Korea, for example).

As far as the satellite photos, this news is so old you'll just have to google it for yourself.

Joseph, let me ask you one simple question broken into two parts:

1. Do you love America?

2. Are you a proud American?

D.C.

Here is my Qu'ran!

From the introduction of John Stuart Mill's essay "On Liberty":

The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him, must be calculated to produce evil to some one else. The only part of the conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

John Stuart Mill

http://www.bartleby.com/130/1.html

Where have you been, Joseph? If the intelligence forces of the US were fooled, was it due in part to massive reductions in "agents on the ground" since the late '70's? Could it have been part of that wall separating intelligence agences that Gorelick of the 9-11 Commission erected?

Do you know the contents of Kay's report, Joseph? If you have, then you know that the amount and types of weapons found there were evidence of Saddam's weapon-making capacity, and moreover, that they could be restarted at any time.

Did you pay attention when Bush stated the case for war, Joseph? He specifically said that Iraq was not an imminent threat, but that Saddam should be stopped before he became one. Don't tell me lies about what we were "sold" when you don't even know. WMD was one among many cases for the war, Joseph. Or did you miss that part, too?

Are you only occasionally this ignorant Joseph, or are you a liberal?

~NMJ

d.c. im not proud when my country lies to me...
or when my country fails to live up to the moral highground it supposed to be.

Joseph:

im not proud when my country lies to me...
or when my country fails to live up to the moral highground it supposed to be.

I wouldn't be, either.

That's why I don't live in France or Germany.

Joseph, quite apparently, by the title of this thread, our country hasn't lied to anyone. Sarin and Mustard.....make for much more than a good stiff drink, you know?

Moral highground? Coming from you, who opposes anything that wipes out terrorism, or at least appears to, is humorous. You just seem to find an awful lot of things wrong with your home nation. This is war, war is hell, so they say. Speaking of moral highground, while a select few of our troops have disgraced everyone else with placing prisoners in awkward positions, these prisoners all should be thankful. After all, they still have their heads attached.

It seems to me that since you're an American, you should be thankful that you're free to make remarks such as yours without legal and physical consequence, like over in barbarianland, the Middle East. Did you ever give that any thought?

If you're so ashamed of the United States, why don't you find someplace better to reside?

Joseph,

You say that you aren't proud when your country lies to you.

What things, specifically, should our country take then to make you proud of it one again?

joesph, has the right to be stupid! Thank God that is what we are fighting lets hope it stays that way.
Only reasonsaddamn did not use his cem's is cause he could not get out of the country.

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Bob
don't tell these people their mistakes I'm wondering why you spooks are against America

Part of the American Tribe

"I'm wondering why you spooks are against America."

Its not quite five… Getting racial a little earlier than normal, Catherine?

... And I see that you didn't take my advice on the grammar book, as well...

(Yah, I know, this isn't exactly Part of the topic, but...)

Joseph~ *lol* Hey, you finally said something that a Lot of people could discuss upon, very good! You are improving.

Wingnut, eh? That would make the liberals the Screw. And that would make people who fall for their rhetoric.... Oh. Hmmm. Something to do with a large opening.....

Tell me, would you rather we were the Wingnuts that tighten down a good future for you to live in, or the liberals who will Screw you out of it?

joseph is like so many other americans since the vietnam war, young and old. they are too lazy and too ignorant and too naive to understand that somethings must be stood up to, that some people need to be stopped before they get started, and that some things are worth fighting for.

its easy to blame the victim. its easy to to pretend that if we do this or say that, that it will change and get better. that the bad people will go away and stop hurting people. its called pacifism. these were the draft-dodgers of the 60's, and are now the new crop of campus agitators.

joseph has read all those articles. but why not just keep our heads in the sand? then its all good cause we dont have to see or deal with it. maybe it will all go away. maybe Al Qeada will just stop. if we pull our troops from everywhere and leave the world to rot and fester, and leave Al Qeada to recruit in all those places, maybe they will leave us alone. maybe they will stop hating us. maybe they will read the quran and not cut peoples heads off. maybe they wont take 155 mm artillery shells full of sarin and use them on americans, or jordanians, or blow up passenger trains in spain full of innocent people. maybe Al Qeada will just stop selling drugs to finance terror.

some people are just evil. they hate us because we are the opposite of them and stand for what is right: but more important because we STAND UP TO THEM AND WHAT THEY DO. as bad as abu ghraib was, none of those men on those tapes was killed. we cant say the same for Nick Berg. Nick Berg had a quran with him at the time of his death. he wanted to understand and was interested in islam. but he was an american. a jewish american. And So, they sawed off his head in an act of vicious barbarism and then bragged about it. they wanted the world to understand just what they want and how they want it to happen.

Make no mistake in understanding, this isnt about any thing but hate. they hate us. it will never change. hitler hated us too. so did the japanese once upon a time. we fought that war and won and look how much better those two countries are. the same will come about in iraq. it will not happen quickly or cheaply. if you ask the avg iraqi on the street what he thinks youll find out that 70 percent think its great whats happening. another 25 percent are worried about being marginalized by other parts of the political body. the last 5 percent are part of AQ or al-sadr's al mahdi army, a bunch of cowards who fight from mosques.

thousands and thousands of 155 mm artillery shells were made by the iraqis. the fact that these two show up goes to show that they were NOT destroyed. according to UN records saddam claimed ALL 155 mm shells were destroyed. and as far as the transfer of WMD to syria and other syrian satellites and allies goes, well, weve been over that. its not new, and its not been refuted. the israelies did confirm and we all know it.

theres no lies from the us govt. they came out and said what they beleived. they showed all the evidence they had. its still convincing. there are no ways of explaining off what was presented by colin powell before the un and all the other evidence that has come forth. these two shells, they re the tip of the iceberg. if there wasnt any weps of mass destruction there, than how is it that these two sarin shells, and the mustard gas mortar shell got into the hands of terrorists? i see joseph being critical, but can HE BACK UP HIS ARGUMENT? or will he just continue to argue semantics? weve given joseph more than enough proof. more than enough to consider.

ths simple fact of this arguement remains: you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. joseph, you can bury your head in the sand or you can pull it out, open your eyes and look at what is obvious to the rest of the world.

ev

Notice what Joeseph is doing? He's playing a game wherein the goal posts are continuously being moved farther and farther away so that those on the other side of the debate can never win. You have to look closely to see how its done. Let me assist..

For example, he first says: "technically what is there is no where near what you where sold by the administration before the war. which was a massive arsenal of weapons with commanders on the ground given the go ahead to launch these munitions at the american forces as soon as the crossed the border."

Let's take a closer look at this, shall we?

Notice the addition of the word "massive". So, if an arsenal of weapons was found in a pile that was 40 feet high, this allows Joeseph to then argue that such a pile isn't big enough to be considered massive. So, then you're left arguing NOT what was found and its significance but WHETHER it was MASSIVE or not..

Next, even if the pile of weapons found was indeed massive, the issue will be whether or not the commanders actually HAD orders to use such weapons.. And.. even if they did have orders, were their orders specifically directing them to be used AGAINST the americans? And, if they were to be used against the americans, did the americans actually cross the border first? This, of course, entirely skips over the still pending issues of whether or not the officers in the field were actually 'commanders' or not and whether or not said commanders were 'ground' commanders?

So, you see, in this one statement alone there is enough wiggle room for an entire debating team to drive thru.

Next, he says: "the real question here is are there more and not a handful but large hidden stockpiles and is it of recent manufactur as in the past 5-7 years."

Let's look at this one too. Assuming arguendo that one wins the debate with respect to ALL the issues just discussed, the game isn't over because the goal posts are still not within scoring range.

Here, even if arsenals of weapons were found, were said arsenals actually comprised of a handful of weapons or larger than that? And, even if they were larger, were they actually hidden? And, if they were indeed actually hidden, were they in stockpiles?

Let's assume you win on these issues in the debate then the goal posts are pushed further away because now the 'real issue' is whether or not they were manufactured? And, if they were manufactured, were they of manufactured recently? Even if they were of recent manufacture, were they manufactured within the past 5-7 years?

Lastly, he leaves himself a huge backdoor to escape the debate entirely if one wins on all the above issues. Namely, he says: "... if they [weapons] turn out to be some munitions that snuck through the cracks during the destruction phase in the early 90's then this is not catagoric proof that saddam was maintaining a wmd force."

So.. the ultimate issue then, after having jumped all the hurdles listed above, you still have to show that some of those munitions didn't just sneak through the cracks. And, even if they did sneak through the cracks, did they sneak through during a so-called deconstruction phase, and was that an early 90's phase or something else?

AND... EVEN IF YOU PROVED ALL THIS, he goes on to say that it still doesn't 'categorically' prove that Saddam was 'maintaining' a 'wmd force'!

People like him cannot be won over by ANY amount of proof. Even if Saddam himself was video taped pointing out where the WMD's were hidden, people like Joeseph would find some reason to move the goal posts, i.e., did Saddam really 'point them out' or did he just kindof indicate where the WMDs were? Better yet, did our interrogators use undue influence to otherwise coerce him into telling the americans where the WMDs were hidden? If so, then an immediate investigation has to be launched into what was done to Saddam to make him point the WMDs out? That is the REAL ISSUE..

I too am waiting for the spin from the tree-hugging left,a website claims the Nick Berg video was a CIA hoax and a Mexican Doctor attested to the claim. I'm amazed at how the CIA beheaded someone and then found a body that matched Berg's and had the exact fingerprints so when they tossed it out by a bridge the finders would think it's him.
Another site claims the 2nd plane that hit the WTC was faked and the real passengers of that flight are being held in a warehouse run by the military. So the Berg pix was fake and the prison pix are real,without a trial Muslim's and Arabs have decided 7 soldiers are guilty and why bother with a hearing to prove the guilt. I've viewed some pictures and the shadowing in a few don't match the lighting,the man on the leash casts a shadow under him but the Guards chin and neck are well lit.The one against the jail bars has a small circular patch under his feet that doesn't match the cement grain of the rest of the floor.
This is exactly how Saddam ran Iraq,and why the mindset in the Middle-East is dangerous when transplanted into the Western culture. Your guilty of aiding the "Jewish Pigs" so we all must die in the name of Allah,the U.N. will get us killed if we let them run the world,and the Red Cross were the ones that toured the POW camps in Germany and reported everything was just fine.
The last four wars of the USA have been to protect Muslims,once Iraq is stablized we should call back all troops and let the Arabs and Muslims slaughter each other for Allah so the world will be safer without the militant wing of Islam.

We should boil Arafat's Head Gear and make him drink the soup.

A quick impromptu poll of online "news sources" front pages at 2:50pm Pacific Standard time shows the almost universal thread in those that actually reported the "news" is the absolute and complete lack of use of the abbreviation WMD. Gosh I wonder why that is??? Our Print media wouldn't be trying to downplay what many "normal" people knew was coming would it? Naw, I didn't think so.

Christian Science Monitor..........No mention of SARIN gas.....but plenty on Prison abuse
LA Times..............Look very careful or you'll miss it
Nerve-Gas Shell Exploded in Iraq
By Associated Press | 1:41 p.m.
Artillery round containing sarin is used in bomb against U.S. convoy, but there are no casualties.

Miami Herald..........Look very hard...Keep looking...It's there almost at the bottom of the page...
Sarin-filled munitions in Iraq worry U.S.

San Diego Union Herald.................Front and center
Military alleges sarin use in Iraq
A roadside bomb containing deadly sarin nerve agent explodes near a convoy, according to the U.S. military. The chemicals were inside an artillery shell dating to the Saddam era.

Wall Street Journal.............Front and Center, sort of
A CAR BOMB KILLED the president of the Iraqi Governing Council, dealing a blow to U.S. efforts to stabilize the country before the June 30 handover. The military confirmed a roadside bomb containing sarin exploded near a U.S. convoy on Saturday, but no serious injuries were reported. (Complete coverage) 4:10 p.m.

Washington TImes...............Front and Center, sort of
Sarin Nerve Agent Bomb Explodes in Iraq

Washington Post........................Front and Center, sort of
Governing Council President Is Killed
Iraqi leader is slain by suicide bomber six weeks before planned handover.
– Scott Wilson, Sewell Chan
Roadside Bomb Had Sarin
Small amount of nerve agent released.

New York Times........................Front and Center........but couldn't they have found a smaller typeface?
Iraqi Council Leader Is Killed in Blast Near U.S. Headquarters
By IAN FISHER 5:52 PM ET
The killing dealt a further setback to the U.S. effort to stabilize Iraq in advance of a June 30 handover.
• Photographs: Blast Outside the Green Zone
• U.S. Finds Shell With Nerve Agent in Iraq
• Complete Coverage: The Struggle for Iraq

Like I said glad about some being stupid. Spook has nothing to do with color!!!! Bob understands!

Part of the American Tribe

God Bless the USA and all who fight with her Amen

You mean George might have been right about that WMD thing?? How embarrassing….

canuck

I have to say that folks on this forum are as loony and fundametalist pigs as the terrorists. I say you should just go kill each other so that the rest of us can live in peace

tsmith:

I'll bet you'll squeal when the terrorists come for you. What will you choose - convert or die?

CGW
I will feed another funamentalist like you to them :-) Problem solved!

tsmith:

Oh, but they won't be satisfied with that. Their stated goal is to convert or kill everyone, you included.

BTW, I'm no fundamentalist - just informed. What have YOU read on this subject - or do you just like to form judgements without bothering with the facts?

CGW:

He learned everything he knows about Islam--and the rest of the world, for that matter--from Al Franken and Michael Moore.

Who needs to read anything with authorities like those two for guidance?

I am reading all the posts on this forum and majority of them are pronouncing all muslims to be fundamentalists and they show no remorse in killing even innocent people. Let us not forget who the aggresor is in Iraq. Iraqis never attacked us. In case you have forgotten and I am sure our president has already forgotten, it was Osama who attacked us. So, why dont we go after that asshole instead of killing innocent iraqis. Where is the honor in killing children. Why is my hard earned tax money going into killing iraqis. I cant live with that and I have a problem with idiots on this forum who are condemning iraqis instead of blaming our govt who got us into this bloody mess. Hope you some commonsense to understand what I am trying to say. But I really doubt it because fundamentalists (islamic or otherwise) can never reason. All they see is hate.

tsmith:

In case you have forgotten and I am sure our president has already forgotten, it was Osama who attacked us.

I think about it every morning, when I put on my uniform.

So, why dont we go after that asshole instead of killing innocent iraqis.

The only people who are intentionally killing innocent Iraqis are the terrorists.

I have a problem with idiots on this forum who are condemning iraqis instead of blaming our govt who got us into this bloody mess.

Personally, I have a problem with ill-informed left-wingers who don't even understand why we're in Iraq in the first place.

I've seen very few serious posters on this site "condemning" Iraqis, aside from the ones who are bent on preventing any sort of democratic government from being established.

lobo
Please do inform me as to why we are in iraq. Did the irais invite us to free them? I dont think so.
Do they have WMDs? Bush still has not found even found one. That was a nice exucse that he used and brainwahsed idiots like you to go to war. Who is benefitting from this war. It is Osama and Halliburton. Did Iraqis have any links with Osama. None have been proven. But because of this stupid war that Bush has started, it has invited Osama and his terrorists into Iraq killing people.

Oh you mean to say our soldiers are not killing women and children. What are you smoking. Start reading international media and you shall learn the horrors our govt is involved in.
You call me ill-informed. Try looking into the mirror and you shall find the answer.
Well, you cant really argue with fundametalists. I will attempt no more. People like you will lead this nation and earth to doom.

tsmith, you are entirely incorrect in your assertion. There absolutely are posts that go over the top on this board; I've been as guilty as the rest at times. Expecting perfection from any other human is absurd.

Now, here is the issue: Are all muslims fundamentalists? Of course not.

However, are nearly all terrorists fundamentalist muslims? You're darn tootin.' In fact, with the notable exceptions of the Basques in Spain and Greek homegrowns, a case could be made that ALL regional conflicts in the world today pit islamists against....well...pretty much anyone who won't grant them a state, implement sha'ria, etc., etc.

It is readily apparent that islam does not have the ability--with some few exceptions--to assimilate with any other culture. It must dominate or there must be war.

I'm quite certain we all know a few perfectly reasonable muslims; most in my area are docs and want no part of the caliphate. That's why they came to the US. However, there can be no argument over the fact that the islamists at this point in time dictate the terms. The so-called moderates, like Mr. Spencer states, don't have theology on their side.

Is it discriminatory to make statements advocating stopping muslim immigration to democratic countries? Yep, without a doubt. Is this a bad thing? Only if you believe that it's wrong to not allow kids to buy cigarettes, whiskey, or drive cars. After all, that's discrimination. So is avoiding certain neighborhoods after dark.

No one has a "right" to come and live here. And what is wrong with getting a handle on the monumental task we face by slowing down immigration for a while? It very well may keep good and decent people out, but that's the price of defending the citizens who live here now.

As I've said previously, I'm so tired of being a politically correct multiculturalist and simply thinking that, whatever our differences, all people and cultures are basically of equal worth. This is simply not the case, and at this point in time, I just don't have the free time to try to sort out the "good" muslims from the "bad." Unless/until the "moderates" rise up and take the steps necessary to marginalize the jihadists, all muslims are potential fifth columnists in my book.

tsmith:

Did the irais invite us to free them? I dont think so.

So, you honestly think the majority of Iraqis preferred living under Saddam's rule? You must be smoking something really good.

Do they have WMDs? Bush still has not found even found one.

Did they account for the destruction of the stockpile they already had? No.

Were they attempting to conceal equipment to restart their weapons programs the minute the French and Russians conned the UN into lifting the sanctions? Yes.

Who is benefitting from this war. It is Osama and Halliburton.

I'm not sure how you figure bin Laden is benefitting from anything, aside from the protection he's getting from Pakistan.

And Halliburton is losing money on the contracts it has with the military. About the only benefit they're getting is a tax write-off.

Did Iraqis have any links with Osama. None have been proven.

So I guess all those documents they've recovered from Iraq were forgeries, huh? Interesting.

Oh you mean to say our soldiers are not killing women and children.

Not intentionally, no, they aren't. If you can prove otherwise, feel free.

You call me ill-informed.

You've pretty much just proven my point. Try reading something other than left-wing propaganda once in awhile.

Well, you cant really argue with fundametalists.

I'm guessing "fundamentalists" is your pet term for anyone who disagrees with you, because you certainly have no other reason for calling me one. I'm anything but. I couldn't even tell you what year it was when I last went to church.

People like you will lead this nation and earth to doom.

Funny...that's pretty much exactly how I feel about you and your kind.

Something for Joseph to ponder... during the UN circus before the war, if anyone had any doubts that Saddam had WMD, why didn't that become an issue? France/Germany/Russia/China etc. never made an issue out of whether or not he had WMD... nobody did. What the issue was was how to disarm him.

Guys,

Could you help me out over on the May 15th thread "Berg had Qur'an, 'Anti-Semitic Book..."

You're not afraid of the girls, are you? :)

Ariya:

France/Germany/Russia/China etc. never made an issue out of whether or not he had WMD... nobody did.

Of course they didn't.

Who do you think he bought his supplies and equipment from? They knew EXACTLY what he had, because they sold it to him.

What is it about Joseph (Joey) that enourages us to spend so much time on him? As we all know there are a lot of josephs` out there who see a conspiracy or something sinister in almost everything this country does.

It sends something about Joseph though and those that are like him. Usually they mirror an image of themselves and the people they keep company with. If you are taught not to trust then you will not trust.

Thanks for the posts tonight, hard hitting as they are.

As I've posted before, this is for TSmith's benefit. Reuters ran a story on 8 Nov. 2003 that US and Iraqi investigators estimated that there could have been as many as 300,000 bodies in mass graves, killed by Saddam & Co. Not to mention his gassing the Kurds. Is TSmith as concerned about stopping that?

What much of the "international media" writes justifies those who kill the infidel by saying it is simply a "reaction". If any Westerner is killed, it's blamed on them.

This is Islam's core teaching: fighting and killing the infidel in God's name. See Surah 9. We are all part of this, including TSmith.

By the way, I'm sure this news (nerve gas in Iraq) won't make the front of the British tabloids this week like the Prison Scandal did. Let me know if it does.

Sorry I missed all the love tsmith was delivering earlier. We can try to explain til our last breath to the left, it will do no good. tsmith called us pigs, I'm touched.

The leftys refuse to admit that there's a threat to Westen culture. That's ok, I don't expect them to look that far ahead. I know there are a few liberals on here that hate Jihad as much as we do, and I respect them.

tsmith, welcome to Jihad Watch, please try to use the big boy voice while you visit with us. By the way, I'd much rather be a pig, than an ostrich....

For the Muslims that cite the Quran and question others if they have ever read it,I tell you I have and Imam's and Cleric's are very sly when they boast about Jesus being mentioned in the Quran. This cheap ploy to fool the Western culture that Muslims and Christians worship the same God doesn't work on me,Islam preys on the ignorant and uneducated that can be fooled by trickery and false claims.
Muslims will say Jesus was one of the many Prophets from God,well guess what,Jesus predicted that a Prophet would come after his death and try to claim being a messenger of God.
Except this Prophet will promise Peace and Brotherhood amongst all,but only bring death and war to the Earth and lead people to evil deeds.

Sounds like Muhammad to me,murdered in the name of peace,waged war in the name of justice,taught how to slit a throat to kill someone quickly,had sex with a child,mad up rules for conduct during war which to me meant he knew there wouldn't be the peace he promised,told of a judgement day for all people so to use guilt and shame to control people.
The beheading of Berg must have made God cry for seeing one of his creations slaughter his brother,it's Cain and Abel all over again and Islam looks to be stuck in the stoneage.

Joseph may simply be trying to antagonize you guys, but he's right in a way. This doesn't prove anything. Check out Stratfor.

Dase,

The problem with people in America is that we've always had it good. We take our freedoms for granted and then think that it is like this all over the world. Sadly, it is not. :-(

I hate to say it but Americans are a spoiled lot - on the whole. Many of the people who oppose this country from within would probably change their mind if they had to live in a totalitarian society for 6 months to a year. Then, if they would come back to America, more than likely they would kiss the ground and thank G-d for it. Of course, then again, some people would not be reachable no matter how hard you try. Go figure.

Well said Dase. Appeasers like joey are hot house flowers, they can only exist in the west, where they are protected from Islamists who would cut off their heads with dull knives. Joey is the typical tolerant liberal, tolerant to the point of self-extinction. He chooses to ignore the fact that under Islam the punishment for atheism is death, and that is not tolerant at all.

I will cast my lot with the "wingnuts", and joey can side with the islamofacists. At least I don't worry about being killed by my own side.

cheers

Children grow up to kill for Allah........they are taught by their parents to hate, kill anyone who isn't a believer, why then should we be upset that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time? If they can be taught to hate and kill at a very young age then they will suffer the same consquences as do their parents. If a child can be tried as an adult in America for a crime they committed, what about the crimes being committed everyday when children are being taught kill, kill, kill. I think there is a serious problem there.

"What is it about Joseph (Joey) that enourages us to spend so much time on him? As we all know there are a lot of josephs` out there who see a conspiracy or something sinister in almost everything this country does."

its easy because I symbolize the tree hugging bleeding heard liberals that you all are against and thats fine I have no problem filling that need in this community. :)

Im pretty stereotypical too as a liberal

I am borderline vegetarian, Agaisnt racism/war, Anti Religion, would support some socialist changes to our country, Vote exclusively Democrat in every election, And refuse to own a gun. Pro Gay Marriage, Did I leave any off... Oh and im pro Europe

everything that pushes the buttons of people who post here. All the things that in many peoples minds are contributing to the downfall of white chritian society.

Joseph:

You left "willing dhimmi" off your resume.

Joey,
Let me ask you this, If someone comes to your house with a gun, kill your family members rape your sisters and carry away all your properties, and later burn your house,(I dont pray for such). Will you say thank you to him or will you not try to prevent your family? I guess you will try to do something to prevent such.
That's all what all of us are saying here.
I am not an american, neither can I even vote in America, nor am I a westerner. However, If you say you are this, you are that etc, what of those who are just against being yourself. They don't mind killing you or cutting off your head without any cause, all in the name of a religion.
If I were you, I would have kept quite and think before posting any thing else on line.
Imagine yourself living in a land where strange laws rule, and try to prove your self right, or try to be a pro-gay or whatever you said you are, it is then you will see what you're saying that it is not far from fantansies. I think you've not been to Africa or Middle east before which is why you only rely on internet to post what I think is nonsense!
Joey travel out and know the world, the world is more than your internet, there is more to the world than what you see in America or whereever you live.

Dase:

Joey travel out and know the world, the world is more than your internet, there is more to the world than what you see in America or whereever you live.

I'm guessing he lives on one of the coasts and hasn't even seen the rest of America, much less any other country.

Joseph,

Several years ago, while walking through the holocaust museum in Israel, I read these powerful words by Martin Niemoller:

"When the Nazis arrested the Communists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist.
When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat.
When they arrested the trade unionists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist.
When they arrested the Jews, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Jew.
When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest."

May we learn from the past & may the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob bless America and give wisdom to her leaders.

Cathy:

Amen!

Joseph:

Do you think we are a monolithic group here? There is a wide range of diversity among us with regard to religious and politcal ideologies. The one thing that unites us - the reason we are here - is the realization of the threat to liberty and justice for all that Islam poses. When the time comes, do you think that any of the adjectives you used to describe yourself will matter to them? Do you think you will be given the choice to be all the things you say you are? They would eliminate you now, just on the basis of some of your beliefs, if they could. You will face only one choice - convert or die. By the way, the "conversion" option doesn't include any of your self-descriptive adjectives above. So will you give up being who you are, or will you die? Or will you at some poit - even at the very last second - fight for the right to be who you are? For that is the right you have been allowed to exercise in this great country. Is it worth fighting for? Make no mistake - that war is upon us, and you will have to decide.

CGW,
I agree with you. We as Americans, must stand together and unite against Islam and all it stands for. Why should we lose our freedoms for those who hate everything we stand for and have? If you hate this country and our government, then leave. Pick up your family and go back to where it is you came from. We don't need that type of shit here, we have enough to fight and deal with and in the end, we will win. We fight hard to keep our freedom and liberities that millions before us, after us fought/fighting for! No one will take that from us, we will defend ourselves.

I just think that we may catch this fly with a little more honey and A LOT LESS vinegar.

LOL! I think Joey needs to roll another doobie, crank up the volume on his vintage recording of Country Joe and the Fish and just RELAX!

There are plenty competent INFORMED adults around to handle real life for him:)

In case you missed it Joey...on 9/21/01 Bush gave a speech that told the world we are AT WAR with terror...Terrorists...and ANY Group or Country that supports them or their murderous doctrines...Enough said about WHY we took Saddam out of power... And a timely “heads up” to Syria!

Finding WMD is just icing on the cake, hopefully will be just one more nail in the coffin of Kerry’s presidential dreams. ( Well WMD and Teresa's Income tax records being kept secret until October, plus the unauthorized use of pictures of NON supporters in campaign ads etc…) Every little bit of deceit we uncover will help.

So Joey just chill out...I'm OK, you're asleep...

I will just like to add this for Joey and other people who are thinking like him.
When people like you(Joey) speaks, I always cry because you do not know the value of what God has given you(freedom) or you hav.
Joey, I have lived under dictatorship for almost 23 years, I Know what it means to suffer, I know what it means to have friends killed, I know what it means to attempt to fight for freedom under dictatorship, I know what it is not to have electricity, internet, clean water, have no food for days and above all to be imprisoned!
I am not speaking for myself alone, I am speaking for almost more than millions of people suffering in various part of the world who have not even eaten today (they do not even have any source), who do not have means to express themselves (no internet access), I am speaking for people who through implementation of dangerous laws have to suffer for offences they have not committed, I am speaking for helpless children who have been enslaved.
Joey, I know argueing with you may do little or nothing, but I will be glad if you can imagine yourself not eating for days. It is then you will know the definition of hunger. if the only cloth you have is your bedsheet, if the only house you have is road side. Please Joey, think! Life is not rosy, it is very very difficult for some people, and I know your decisions could help, these people have no choice they just found themselve in such situations, if they had choice they would have chosen otherwise.
You are in America or an american by priveledge, not by choice so be careful about your choice, think intensely before making choice and try to ask your conscience questions before making choices.
I will not say more than that, "a word is enough for the wise".

What bugs me about Joey among all the possible choices? He has command of written English like it's a second language to him. I'm tired of illiterate people spewing their ungrammatical vitriol at me. I'm tired of being politically correct. I'm tired of being polite to people who would just as soon kill me if given a chance. If Joey doesn't like it on this forum, he can leave. If Joey doesn't like it in America and is so pro-Europa, then he has the freedom to go there. A freedom that will not be accorded should his pals take over the world. Sometimes nice just doesn't work.

susan too bad your devine war president is doing bad in the polls...

Joey,
Try to read my comments above
Dase

Dase:

Your posts are moving, and more proof of the truth about Islam than many of us have ever experienced first-hand.

I thank you for your voice.

dase thats funny if god created "freedom" and I assume "democracy" then why the heck did he wait so long in human history to grant it to us. for the longest time this world was run by monarchs, warlords, tribal govt's, and dictators... if god has such a hand in our "freedom" he sure knew how to make the world wait.

This just in: tests confirmed sarin, about 4 liters (a bit over 1 U.S. Gallon).

Date of manufacture as yet unknown...
source: fox news

Joseph,

God created free will. What you do with it is your choice. Use it wisely.

As an aside, I cannot seem to find any references to the Sarin or Mustard gas shells on Arab news sites. Of course, I can't find it on the NY Times, CNN, or the Wash Post so I'm not suprised.

You know, I had hopes for Joseph. With everyone responding to what he had said, I had hoped he would actually give some Thought to it and respond.

Then I read the things he says later... and he himself said it: 'I'm a stereotypical liberal.' (not sure that is exact).

Don't expect Joseph to answer with anything sensible because he Can't. Like Ted Kennedy, he will ignore the question (Memogate) and make the statements he wants people to hear (Damned Lies) (altho Joe manages to lack content even more than Kennedy).

Tsmith actually did a better job and who knows if he will come back.

I will add this: there are evangelical types out there who Are loopy (Prophecy Club), just like Joseph- but you won't find any of them here.

Bob
you talk your way I will talk mine . I aint part of the kerry crowd. Bob, did like bambi into burger! lol I think we are on the same side can't tell.
we are gratiful now that cem despersal was not enough to kill our men!
This is some bad sh-t. We went to war to keep this sh-t off our shores if possible. the libs will do their spin this is nothing new there have always been pussys in this world while brave people fought for freedom . Freedom is not free and will never be.

joesph & tsmith remind me of the neigbors kid smart ass punk kid but still god well the berg vedio cahnged him.
as for joesph&tsmith people belive they have been taken by Ailens are you one of those?

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and all who Fight with her give them Strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

Edna;
You can read the Qur'an online.
I find the "Noble Qur'an" the best version, It was translated by some Saudi ministies so it doesn't try and water the 'Jihad' verses down like other translations.
You can find it here
However, some of the other translations can be found here.
The website Lobo quoted is a must in your studies. The Qur'an is not in any chronological order, nor is it any context, this site puts it into both.

Joseph;
You're "pro-european"?
Please, as a 'reluctant' European, I can assure you Europe will only serve to turn the 'chronological clock' of world safety and progress back about, ooh, a thousand years or so.
Believe me, you want to distance yourself from it as far as possible.

Regards,
kc.

Vietnam was a civil war in which the US intervened on one side and the Soviets backed the other side. More than 1 million South Vietnamese soldiers died in that civil war, along with 50,000 US soldiers. Sounds like the South Vietnamese were pretty motivated to protect their half of the country -- to die in such large numbers. The US did not force them to fight and the US did not attack Vietnam "unprovoked." It was a civil war in which the US intervened on one side, same as the French intervened on our side during the American Revolution.

Later, when the North Vietnamese won the civil war, hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese took to the seas in rickety unsafe boats to get away from them. US ships were still plucking South Vietnamese refugees out of the South China Sea as late as the early 1990s.

I live in an area with many Vietnamese refugees and they are the most flag-waving pro-American people you can ever hope to meet.

The continuous rewriting of history, courtesty of the LLL.

Arf-Arf:

I assure you that people on the ground have a much different opinion, which is deafened by cnn filtering.

And exactly how many people "on the ground" have you personally spoken to about what's happening there?

I'm guessing it's a number somewhere less than 1.

I work with about 15 people who have been there in the last 6 months. I receive e-mails from a number of people who are there NOW.

Oddly enough, what they tell me is completely different from what you--and CNN, for that matter--say.

Arxos~ I see. So you would have history books written by the losing side, to keep perspective?

Losers like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Saddam?

You really need people like to be free to Justify the 100 million+ murders that are on their hands?

BTW- when did we 'invade' Vietnam? Seems to me the French got there first. Seems to me we always end up cleaning up after France's efforts in a region.

Were you aware that More people died in Vietnam AFTER we were forced out by people who think like you?

I have this feeling I just wasted my time. Like with Joey up there, Tsmith seems to do a better job than Arxos. Guys, have fun with this one.

Arf-Arf:

One thing I forgot to mention: Every last one of the people I mentioned in that previous post VOLUNTEERED to serve in Iraq. Several of them have volunteered to go back.

If I were still single, I would probably do so myself.

Lobo91,
All these people you mention must be iraqis, which you are trying to free right?

Sussana,
Thanks for the history lesson. There is always some civil war or conflict, which the US has managed to involve themselves into or exacerbate. Obviously you know nothing of the my lai massacres or any other attrocities perpetrated by US troops on foreign soil? The list is endless I assure you. For example the wiping out of Germany's urban centres-culture and extremely inflated colateral damage by the raf and the us air force, a fact silenced in the victorious bliss of postwar reconciliation. Do you think that wars are waged to liberate? I think they are waged to enslave.

Cultural arrogance is the only plausible explanation for the Iraq phenomenon. If the US was a truly "liberating power" and not an "imperialist power" as Mr Bush so eloquently put it, they would have left the natural evolution of leaders, such as Mr Sadr, unchecked; that is if they didn't have their own agenda of implementing 'democratic values' as they see fit, such arrogance!

I might add that in the absence of the soviet bloc NATO is not an alliance anymore (I think it never was) but a hegemony, which goes for the international community as a whole, something repeated in history ad infinitum. Remember to be the greatest superpower means firm control on the homefront, those two are inseparable. To control the world politically and economically first you have to dominate the American people, to wield them in unison, under the umbrella of ideology

Arxos,

I highly doubt “CNN filtering” as you call it, is painting a rosy picture of the situation in Iraq. Most of the information that I have gathered on Iraqi living conditions have been gleaned through letters home from soldiers and marines about their first-hand experiences and interactions with the Iraqi people. Most of these letters spoke highly of the Iraqi civilians they’ve encountered. They are hopeful that they (Iraqis) will soon be strong enough to run their own land and enjoy the fruits of a democratic society. Hardly the kind of comments you’d expect from the vengeful, anti-Muslim forces we are portrayed as in the Arab media.

War with Iraq was hardly unprovoked. Saddam had over 12 years to comply with terms of ceasefire of the 1991 Gulf War. He did not. We had full justification to resume hostilities to return to combat on that United Nations legalized point alone. We also had legal precedent in international law based upon our campaign in Bosnia, which I may add, was undertaken to save Muslim lives. All of these were legal justifications independent of 9/11, and I have yet to bring up the obvious humanitarian justification for dispatching a leader guilty of mass genocide.

As for the “one voice” you think I listen to, I count these among the news sources I read on a weekly, if not daily basis: ABC News, CBS News, Fox News, New York Post, New York Times, Washington Post, Charlotte Observer, Times Herald-Record, Daily Reflector (previous 3 are local newspapers from around the US), CNN, MSNBC, Instapundit, IMAO, Little Green Footballs, Moxie, Allah is in the House, Al-Jazeera, Islam Online, Islamic Voice, BBC News, Google News, etc…

As you see, I don’t follow just one news source, or for that matter, sources from one country, or even from one ideology. A neat thing I learned in college was critical thinking. The way that works is, you let every side have their say and present facts if any are applicable to the situation. Then you use logic to see which argument is the most valid. This is how we conduct a debate using western philosophy. I realize this is somewhat different than middle eastern philosophical debates, where an imam presents his opinion and supporting facts, and then blows up those that dissent.

I also take offense if you are trying to lump me among the “steroid pumped maggots” crowd, on two points. First, I try to conduct a dispassionate, fair debate, even when I disagree with someone. Second, I am firmly against addicting insects to performance enhancing drugs. That is just wrong on so many levels.

I don’t believe I have ever used inflammatory language, such as calling Islam a “warlike cult,” even when comments from those such as Reza give me cause for concern.

Arxos,

You make the argument that the United States is constantly involving themselves in other countries civil wars. Would you please provide some examples?

There have never been “clean” wars. Atrocities always occur, regrettable as that may be. I also don’t think that the firebombing of Dresden or Hamburg were ever silenced, and if my memory serves me correctly, every documentary I seen or book I’ve read on the subject came from an American producer or author.

Pragmatically and historically, the vast majority of wars are fought for economic reasons. I do not think any honest educated person would argue that point. I would strongly argue that modern western countries do not wage war to enslave. First, slavery is bad economics. Secondly, the fact that we do not currently “own” any of the countries we’ve defeated in the last two hundred years, and there have been quite a few.

Despite their short memories of some Europeans, I think you might be able to find some French, Italians and British citizens who might argue that we liberated them, as well as the Chinese and Burmese (though they didn’t do as well with their freedom as we’d hoped). Also, liberating a country doesn’t mean turning it over to the next nationalist militant who comes along seeking power, so you’re stretching your credibility with the Sadr comment.

You also have little understanding of how the United States works. We are a superpower precisely because we do NOT allow our government to have a firm control over the population. I don’t know where you got that statement, or why you bring it up repeatedly, but it is far from American political reality. We are strong because we value dissenting opinions, and have the capability to capitalize on what a very smart man once called the Marketplace of Ideas. I don’t see this same freedom of thought promoted in the Arabic world. Perhaps I’m not reading the right papers.

Looks like the leftist kooks where wrong again... Yawn ;)

Arf-Arf:

All these people you mention must be iraqis, which you are trying to free right?

No, they would be senior officers in the US Army Reserve, of which I also happen to be a member.

the wiping out of Germany's urban centres-culture and extremely inflated colateral damage by the raf and the us air force, a fact silenced in the victorious bliss of postwar reconciliation.

Nothing about the destruction of Germany was "silenced," at least not in the West. Of course, I can't speak for what was published in whatever hellhole you're from.

Do you think that wars are waged to liberate?
Who ever claimed that we fought WWII to liberate the Germans (or the Japanese, for that matter)?

We fought WWII to end their aggression, not to liberate (or to enslave) them.

Come back after you study history a bit more.

The Koran’s 150 Jihad Verses, Compiled by Yoel Natan
www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm

Bob,
Just name a war, conflict from wwii and I will proceed to tell you according to the best of my knowledge if the US was involved.

Listen bob, knowledge and history are very subjective things indeed. What is promoted in the world today is only one side of the story. Funds are continiously allocated towards creating intellectual elits who have studied and ultimately encapsulate disciplines/discourses that are limited in their scope of 'truths'. Then they go back and respectively 'run' their countries according to your 'freedom'

I will be brief regarding your point of a marketplace of ideas. How can you claim that for a nation that persistently demonstrates a lack of self-determination by not even turning out to vote...at least the iraquis are expressing themselves with the kalashnikov at hand.

Well, what do know, someone finally found a weapon of Mass Destruction! I'm not surprised. I have felt all along that5 sooner or later some would be found. with all that Sadam Hussein had before, some wre bound to be found and now it has happened. Just wonder when more will be found and hope an pray it won't be too late and some real damage to lives ia done.

"at least the iraquis are expressing themselves with the kalashnikov at hand"

that is really dumb arxos. if someone lights up your neighborhood with a gun, try to remember its just your idea of self expression.

what a nimrod.

Arxos
"the natural evolution of leaders, such as Mr Sadr" Hah!
Read "Civilization and it's enemies" by Lee Harris.
The number one enemy of civiliation is the "ruthless gang", a term which includes Al Sadr and all the Jihadis who seek power through force.
The number two enemy is the intellectual ellite and their socialistic fantasies. Does that include you and Joseph et al?

sadly, arxos is wasting talented brain tissue on the revisionist-historical left-wing subjectivity-trumps-objectivity unreasonable sophistry promulgated by self-hating americans posing as professors at our universities. usually, when a person swallows this philosophy (and i use that term quite loosely in this context), they are beyond the pale. sometimes, getting mugged will shock them into reality, but i'd bet dollars for doughnuts arxos prefers this orwellian existence that self-righteously promotes this mad dash into oblivion.

I could never understand how Nimrod went from a 'Mighty Hunter' in Persian mythology (sorry if I get my mythologies mixed up a bit, still early, no coffee) to being known as an Idiot.

I have to wonder if it was due to the kind of revisionism that Arxos supports. Whether it be that or something else entirely, comparing Arxos or Any Idiot to Nimrod is an insult to Nimrod.

Arxos,

You challenged me to: “Just name a war, conflict from wwii and I will proceed to tell you according to the best of my knowledge if the US was involved.”

Ok Arxos, I’ll take the bait. But just to keep it interesting, I’ll only include those wars and mass casualty situations I’m fairly certain the US was NOT involved in. To keep it short, I won’t go up all the way to the present, only to those wars that started in 1980.

Chinese Civil War (1945-49)
French Indochina War (1945-54)
Partition of India and Pakistan (1947)
Israeli War of Independence (1948-49)
Kashmir Civil War (1948-2003)
French-Algerian War (1954-62)
The Sinai War (1956)
First Sudanese Civil War (1956-72)
Mao’s “Great Leap Forward” (1958-61)
Palestinian-Israeli Conflict (1960-Present)
Kurds vs. Iraq (1961-2003)
Indonesian Civil War (1965-66)
Mao’s “Cultural Revolution” ( 1966-69)
Columbian Civil War (1966)
The Six-Day War (1967)
Biafran War (1967-70)
Uganda (1969-79)
Equatorial Guinea (1969-79)
IRA-Northern Ireland (1969-2002)
Pakistan-Bangladesh Civil War (1971)
Burundi Civil War (1972)
The Yom Kippur War (1973)
Rhodesia/Zimbabwe Civil War (1972-79)
Ethiopian Civil War (1974-91)
Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1975-78)
Khmer Rouge, Cambodia ((1975-79)
Lebanonese Civil War (1975-90)
Angolan Civil War (1975-2002)
Mozambique Civil War (1976-93)
Indonesia-East Timor Civil War (1976-98)
Indonesia-Aceh Civil War (1976-Present)
Vietnam/China War (1979)
Peruvian Civil War (1980-92)
Kurds vs. Turkey (1980-99)

This list could go on much longer, but you wouldn’t want that. There wee 21 wars since 1980. The vast majority of wars from 1980-Present (18 of 21) were caused by or participated in by Muslims, at a cost of 3.516 million dead. That does not include the Congo or Rwandan Civil Wars, which cost another 1.7 million dead.

These are not subjective numbers. No blame is assigned, and no spin is involved. These are cold, hard, unequivocal facts.

By the way, your swipe our voter turnout is one of your most transparent, and ineffective, attempts to change a subject yet. The fact remains that we retain the right to vote by ballot, and Muslims only seem to be able to vote out of the barrel of a gun.

But you’ve said that already, haven’t you?

You might want to look for another web site to spread your ideology. I think I have consistently and dispassionately defeated every argument you have brought. I don’t see that changing anytime in the near future.

“And the truth shall set you free…”

Bob, I shall be pleased to see if he Can respond, but I have to point out.... you mentioned all the wars Israel was subjected to. By Arxos' thinking, those Automatically had US backing and help, whether he can offer any proof or not.

All of the Israeli-involved wars were instigated by Allah & Friends, and were fought defensively, not offensively. I don't think he can blame those on us.

BTW, none of those wars entered into the total number of dead I cited, as they were pre-1980.

Three words sarin gas bomb!

All you who want to defend ratical islam why they would have killed all the jordan's what 80,000 if the cem's from syria how many Iraqis have the terriorst killed in Iraq? we saw alot of bodies hung by terrorist? Arafat does the same kill's his own for what money? what does he have 50, million in a french bank? his wife lives on the chan-del-la-say pretty pricie last time I looked? in the name of islam people are killing all over the world and killing mulsums as well if they do not fit into the plan! How can you not denonce these monsters if this is not what your islam is about.

We are sorry for dase because he is in england and has given up their guns maybe this is some thing you need to change. America can no longer be the world's 9/11 but england are our freinds you have to help us help you.

Remember a gun in hand is worth 2 cops on the phone

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and all who fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

I would like to say something, let me first say that I do not hate Muslims, but I do not appreciate it when I'm told I need to be educated on Islam in order to fully understand the religion. I'm not going to sit here and attack it, mainly because it's not worth fighting with people on the internet..I must agree with what JGK has said, those that do claim to be followers of Allah and then do something evil does put a great concern into the rest of us that are watching. Now I've read in different threads this evening that the 9/11 terrorists and others cannot call themselves Muslims and followers of Islam because violence is not tolerated (I'm paraphasing things I've read) and Allah would never want that. It's not convert and die as they would have us believe, am I correct to a point? Okay, but please understand this, even though you say all of his, most of us will not listen for the simple reason, we have seen many acts of violence in the name of Allah, we have heard of abuse of women by their husbands especially in Saudi Arabi under the Sharia, and to have someone sit there and defend their beliefs so earnestly is honorable with one thing, if you know that no matter what you say it is going onto deaf ears, why waste your time? I've also read somewhere on here that we are being called to Islam and our grandchildren will be Muslim, first off, our grandchildren will not be Muslim, they will be whatever we are, myself Christian as my daugther is, and if you are not trying to convert us then why sit there and say you're trying to call to us Islam? I wish I could remember who said this and on what thread but I'm sorry I can't. I know Muslims want to be respected but some of you need to respect others first before you can ask for respect. Some of the posts are just down right nasty as hell and it does not show peace! Everyone is supposed to behave as their God wants them to and some are not, Muslim, non Muslim it doesn't matter. Of course not everyone believes in God and their posts reflect that but those that do, you need to speak with pride and intelligence and respect for yourself, others and your faith. When you don't, it proves the point that you are not worth anyone's time and I'M NOT NAMING ANY NAMES NOR POINTING SPECIFIC FINGERS AT ANYONE as I'm not here to cause problems and start yet another fight in this thread. Also, a note about 9/11 as I see that was a very hot topic, it cannot be forgotten especially for those who lived it. It wasn't right but any unnecessary killing isn't right, in times of war though it's sad to say that it will and does happen. Even though it cannot be proven 100% that the hijackers were in fact Islamic that is what we are led to believe. I dont think anything can change that view. We are a nation filled with great hatered for the Middle East for what is being taught about the West. There are those countries that just hate us no matter what and I think it's more because of the freedoms we posses and they do not. Parents are teaching their children to hate us, destroy us and we are supposed to sit back and allow this to continue? We must go and fight for our country. We went in and took out Saddam, keep in mind he and his regime did many harsh, cruel things to the Iraqi people and without us coming in, he would still be in power to this day as he had his entire country scared shitless of him. After we do this, we then are photographed abusing Iraqi detanees, prisoners, yeah, that was a bright idea. I don't agree with this treatment, however, two wrongs do not make a right. Killing Nick Berg has not fixed the problem, having national media coverage of these acts is having an effect. When are terrorists going to learn, we don't listen to threats? No, we don't want any person killed by our enemies but we also aren't going to bow our heads to these people, get on our knees and give them whatever the hell they want! If we did, we would not be the country we are today, faults and all. So in saying all of this, either people are going to respect one another or you will die alone and miserable because the more you attack and disrespect it just proves how miserable a person you really are. No trying to convert those who do not wish to be converted. And if you're on this site and you know this site is against Islam, you need to keep in mind, no matter what you say, no one will listen. I'm not trying to be rude, just upfront.

To me it doesn't pay to throw insult to insult no one will listen anyway, we'll just fly right past it. You will be more intelligent and better than those who do not have enough of a vocabulary to not stoop to their levels.

"susan too bad your devine war president is doing bad in the polls...

Posted by joseph at May 18, 2004 01:50 PM"

Oh Joseph,

Don't you know that polls don't mean anything? Haven't you heard that it isn't over till the fat lady sings? We will have to wait and see what happens come election time.

btw, I saw Slyvia Browne on Montel's show today. She had predicted correctly some months back that Kerry would be the Democratic candidate. Today, she hinted at the fact that Bush would win the election. Now she didn't say that directly, but the hint was very strong. I guess we'll have to see if what she says comes true. Let's not divine through polls (and I am not saying I believe in Sylvia Browne's comment - so I won't divine through her either) what will happen in October. Let's let the fat lady sing for herself.

dear annie,

in response to your statement, "Even though it cannot be proven 100% that the hijackers were in fact Islamic that is what we are led to believe," i must point out that khalid sheikh mohammed (3rd in command of al qaeda and its former military commander) admitted to -- in fact, boasted -- planning the 9/11 attacks [you may find all of this information in the book "terror masterminds"]. the case against al qaeda regarding 9/11 is immense. the hijackers were islamic. they were members of al qaeda. al qaeda is a terrible terrorist organization that finds its roots in the muslim brotherhood.

to gary: your query on nimrod piqued my interest, so i looked up the etymology:

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

nimrod

SYLLABICATION: nim·rod
PRONUNCIATION: nmrd
NOUN: 1. also Nimrod A hunter. 2. Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid.
ETYMOLOGY: After Nimrod. Sense 2, probably from the phrase “poor little Nimrod,” used by the cartoon character Bugs Bunny to mock the hapless hunter Elmer Fudd.

Ted,
Thank you, I stand corrected! I wasn't aware of that information and I will change my thought process on that.

Catherine, as another member of the American tribe (I'm too much of a mongrel to claim anything else), I think you're right. BUT...

Bush can't be vindicated, because everyone knows that the Left is the pure, noble conscience of civlization that is never wrong, even when it says nobody died in Stalin's collectivization, Mao's purges, or in the Indochina countriers after 1975.

Bob Owens: You forgot an international war going on in central Africa in the 1990's that went virtually unrecognized in the mainstream media (they were too busy with what Madonna and Brittney Spears weren't wearing).

I think I covered it...

"That does not include the Congo or Rwandan Civil Wars, which cost another 1.7 million dead."

Unless there was another.