Saudi Arabia: "Are you Muslim or Christian?" Gunmen hunted "infidel" Westerners

The religion of peace sure does kill a lot of civilians. What a charming bronze age death cult.

Another article says they were cutting the captives throats when interrupted:

The nine had their throats cut by the kidnappers when they tried to escape at night by the stairs," Hijazin told AFP watching the removal of bodies.

brave, brave jihadis.

Well the militants were somewhat pacified not to just start killing everybody, they usually don't ask any questions before killing, but that does not condone the ones they did kill and what they did. Really I think we ought to get out of there like they want us to and find another solution to oil, and at the same time not allow the muslims into our country and get rid of what we already have and give the muslims nothing as far as economic aid. But that don't fit into the elites people mind-frame to run the world. Don't anybody read the Bible anymore.

Here are my comments relayed last night to Walid Phares, Secretary General of the World Lebanese Cultural Union upon receipt pf the WLCU news release. You will see where my suspicions lie.

"I have read the reports on line and yes, I would agree that foreigners among them Lebanese, more specifically Maronite ex-pats were deliberately targeted, as they were during the heinous attacks in October of last year. As I recall, Walid, children of a very good friend were killed and you circulated the heart rending pictures of them during your report.

These attacks, as were the attacks last month on western oil technicians in Janbu, a German chef for Saudia Airlines, last week, and today's events are all of a piece.

The terroroists, and I suspect their accomplices in the Saudi Wahhabi hierarchy and the Saudi national guard and security service are fomenting panic among all the the ex-pat communities in Saudia Arabia for an economic reason. They want these foreign technicians who keep the oil flowing and support operations in the Saudi fields to take "french leave." That would cripple oil production and would cause a further spike in the oil spot markets at the opening of the commodity markets on Tuesday in the US of A.

I understand that the Lebanese ambasador to Saudia Arabia has protested, and that our State department is suggested in an advisory that all Americans leave the country for their personal safety.

If there's sufficient intelligence to finger a concerted effort by disaffected and religious xenophobes in the House of Saud and Wahhabi benefectors of local terror groups, then this should be brought to the attention of U.S. interest groups in the Congress and the Bush Administration along with the specific targeting of Westerners and Lebanese expats, specifically Maronites by your organization.

We may be getting close to the time when a war plan to seize the Saudi fields developed in 1973 by executive order and implemented by then SECDEF James Schlesinger may have to be "dusted off."

As any one experienced in what goes on in the empty quarter of Araby knows, these are not isolated events. They have the tacit if not active support of religiously extreme Saudi government elements.

My deepest rachmonis (compassion) for those foreigners and Lebanese nationals and Maronite killeds in this heinous terroroist action in Khubar."

Everyone:

I'm going to repeat my assertion that most of you are seriously neglecting Dhimmi Watch. There are several good articles today that bear commenting upon (sorry to end with a prepositon, but it sounded even more awkward the other way).

THE LAST GREAT HOLY WAR HAS STARTED, OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE. HOW MANY OF THE MUSLIMS DID THE TERRORISTS ASK DURING THE SEPT 11 01 BEFORE THEY WERE KILLED. ZERO, THATS RIGHT ZERO. BEACAUSE THEY DIDNT CARE ABOUT THERE OWN SO CALLED BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF ISLAM, THE TIME IS HERE CHRISTIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS, BE READY FOR YOUR CALLING TO STAND UP AND FIGHT FOR OUR RELIGION AND THE ONE TRUE GOD, JESUS CHRIST. AND TO YOU OF THE JEWISH FAITH, WE MIGHT NOT HAVE THE SAME BELIEVES BUT AT LEAST WE HAVE THE SAME GOAL. STOPPING THIS MADNESS AT ALL COST. I WOULD STAND NEXT TO YOU OF THE JEWISH FAITH AND DIE FIGHTING FOR YOU AS I HOPE YOU WOULD DO FOR US. JEREMIAH 20:12

I believe the Lebanese have it right....Abandon Saudi Arabia unless and until they apply a bit of rough justice to these radical groups...and do not return until sanity reigns and safety can be assured...

The Saudis are well aware of what being favorably linked to the West means, even if they have failed to communicate this to the "people".

The Saudis have some Real Tough choices to make. Will it be back to the Dark Ages under Sharia law or stay in the light (and financial rewards) of civilization??

A very clear example of how Muslim immigrants are fooling naive Westerners with taqiyya, lying for Islam:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/newspage.php3

http://watch.windsofchange.net/themes_92.htm

SvD:s co-worker Salam Karam has on several occassions visited the large mosque on Medborgarplatsen [a square in Stockholm] during the spring. The aim has been to compare the Imam's speeches in Arabic with the interpreters Swedish translations. His report shows that the violent attacks against USA and the West are never translated.

The concept of taqiyya, or kitman, is CRUCIAL for understanding how Muslims behave when they are a minority, like in the USA, Canada, Australia or Europe today:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178

DEATHTOTHEJIHAD,
It might be not premature to think so at this point already.
It might be also too late afterwards if we do not call the tune now.
Time doesn't seem to be playing into our hands, does it?

Patrick,
Good remarks on taqiyyah. I would also call such lying an Islam-justified hypocrisy.
Curiously enough, the Arabic for hypocrisy is 'munafaqah', and they claim to denounce it.
It just remains unclear for how long the Western authorities are going to tolerate these hatred lairs called mosques? I'd be surprised to meet a preacher of peace in one of those.

DEATHTOTHEJIHAD,

Amen, buddy. My feelings exactly. I have never been so motivated to give up the comforts of American life and fight against this plague. I will gladly give my life if necessary.

SWE

Prince Bandar was on the air today crying foul. The foul is that Western citizens are taking the Saudis to task for terrorism. Can't we see that they, the Saudis, are being attacked by these same terrorists?

Go to the sites mentioned in the posts above to read about taqiyya and kitman. Notice the tactic of victimization. Get used to these same tactics being used by Muslims that are here now. Be ready to analyze and categorize them to explain to your friends, neighbors, and colleagues that still have not taken the time to become educated.

"Don't be afraid. We won't kill Muslims even if you are an American," he quoted them as saying.

So Don't Struggle with your common sense. Please come and embrace Islam becuase nobody will hurt you again and the world will be a peacefull place when all Muslim brothers and sisters live together under devin rule of Almighty Allah (swt).

Mahmoud - At least you are honest about YOUR intentions. You insist that the whole world become Muslim. Guess, what, we don't want to be Muslim, nor do we want to live under Sharia nor put up with the deception of Islam.

Peace, for you, is not the absence of strife, but the absence of enemies. That means peace in Islam, not with Islam. We now understand your intentions and your lies, as well as your ketman tactics.

Mahmound,

My common sense tells me we need to stand up and resist this evil.

My Fellow Infidels,

We need to spread the word about the sinister truth of Islam. Spread the word and inform all you know. God Bless America and the West and all those around the world who recognize the enemy of radical Islam.

This incident is truely regretable, but it is necessary to realise that it occurred in response to intolerable provocation. Allah's (swt) Messenger (pbuh) stated that Muslims must "turn out the pagans from Arabia" (the Arabian Peninsula). The non-Muslims therefore have no right to be in Saudi Arabia in the first place. They must therefore bear the primary responsibility for incidents like this.

Muslims fight only in defense of Islam and to protect brother Muslims. Westerners must cease their provocations and oppression of Muslims if there is to be peace.

Allahu akbar

" Please come and embrace Islam becuase nobody will hurt you again and the world will be a peacefull place when all Muslim brothers and sisters live together under devin rule of Almighty Allah (swt). "

That sounds like a speach by Hitler! Beleive me, if we all lived under the rule of hitler or stalin everyone would live in peace, regardless of the conditions but we will still live in peace.

So basically, mahmoud, you are saying to us 'convert or die'. Correct me if i am wrong.

"The non-Muslims therefore have no right to be in Saudi Arabia in the first place."

"Muslims fight only in defense of Islam and to protect brother Muslims. Westerners must cease their provocations and oppression of Muslims if there is to be peace."

In other words, opression and provocation to you means living in arabia? If that is the case then there is enough provocation by you for us to nuke the hell out of you. Just look at the immigration of arabs to america! why do you call americans living in saudia arabia opression and provocation and in the same time muslims living in america is totally acceptable ? why the hypocricy?

Why do you come to our land, infiltrate into our society, destroy our culture, stir up trouble, preach your BS about islam and whine about our support for israel and our war on terrorism INSIDE OUR LAND? Then, when Americans live in arab countries and merely do their jobs without even practicing their religion since it is banned to do that in saudia arabia, they are set upon by muslim extremists who call this provocation? this is totally unacceptable and we HAVE to stand up against these double standwards. Its no good being the good guys in the world anymore, we should, from now on, STOP ALL IMMIGRATION into america and ban the practice of islam, just like practicing christianity is banned in saudia arabia.

Reza, you poor fool, are you so simple minded, or so brainwashed, that you cannot put the remarks of your so-called prophet in their historical context? Never mind, it's a rhetorical question.

"The gunmen were so polite. I cannot comprehend this politeness they showed me because I am a Muslim and this cruelty to others," said Abu Hashem,"

Another case of the Jihadists simply following Muhammeds' orders;

Sura 48:29
"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves."

Compare and contrast with this command from Jesus;

Matthew 5:43-47
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.... If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"

And one of Allahs' names is "Most Merciful"??
Sorry, but am I missing something here?

"Its no good being the good guys in the world anymore, we should, from now on, STOP ALL IMMIGRATION into america and ban the practice of islam, just like practicing christianity is banned in saudia arabia" : Soldier of Christ

This really is the central problem isn't it... Our biggest obstacle to putting and end to all this Muslim non-sense is our own culture of being fair, and considerate, and accepting of others no matter what they say or do to us. Instead of growing up with Muslim ideologies like "exterminate the infidels", we've learned "turn the other cheek," "do unto others as you would have others do unto you," and "judge not, lest ye be judged."

Americans need to wake up to the fact that the the Muslim world will only use our civility against us.

Excellent post KC from England!

I know which one reflects God's TRUE message of peace.

I have always viewed myself as being an easygoing type of agonistic. However, in the year of so, I have become a hard core atheist. Thank you Reza for reminding me why I joined the US Army 15 years ago. Additionally, the unprovoked attack in Khobar, is just one more reason for me to reenlist in November.

As a footnote, it has always seemed rather apparent to me that the individuals who truly believe in Sharia law and Jihad, just need a little paxil for their anxiety and maybe a nice, little puppy to love. That should make them right as rain.

"In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good & candid minds in all ages have ever practised, &, both by precept & example, inculcated on mankind. And it is now generally agreed among Christians that this spirit of toleration, in the fullest extent consistent with the being of civil society, is the chief characteristical mark of the Church. Insomuch that Mr. Locke has asserted & proved, beyond the possibility of contradiction on any solid ground, that such toleration ought to be extended to all whose doctrines are not subversive of society." -Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, Report of the Committee of Correspondence to the Boston Town Meeting, Nov. 20, 1772.

Skeik Ossama ben Laden may ALLAH protect him Said " As you kill our innocents we wil kill yours.. our bloods are not ship than yours "

Hay jihadist,

I will think of you when I raise my right hand, for the third time and take my oath protect my country.

Hilarious! If there were no 'pagans' in Arabia, you half-wits would all starve to death.

Wow, I need spell check.

Hey jihadist:

Your forgot to put (swt) after the word Allah! Blasphemer! That got someone jailed in Pakistan. Under Sharia law, you can now be punished.

They are killing muslims in daily bases in Iraq , Afghanistan, Palestion and everywhere and now they are craying for some pigs who takes part in the plundering of our oil .

we dont care about your pigs

ALL Earth kaffirs is not worth one muslim in ALLAH's and Muslim's eyes

See... paxil would do jihadist a world of good..

Jihadist:
آمین یارب العالمین

Oh dear, dear, dear Jihadist.

Not only are you in trouble (as CGW has stated) for not writing 'swt' after Allah, But it would also seem, according to the ahadeeth, that you are in a rather 'sticky predicament' due to your course language and lack of manners;

Hadith - At-Tabaraanee collected it, and Albani authenticated it in Silsilatul-AHaadeethis-Saheehah (#432).
"The Prophet (saaws) said: "The most beloved of Allah's servants to Allah are those with the best manners."

Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, and Tirmidhi
"... 'Abd Allah ibn 'Amr said, "The Prophet of Allah, upon him be peace, was never obscene or coarse. Rather, he used to tell us that the best among us were those with the best manners."

Looks like you need to go and perform some 'ablutions' as soon as possible Jihadist.

Off you go then.

No one is coming to "steal" your oil, jihadis. You wouldn't even have known how to find it or pump it out of the ground without Western infidel technology and geological knowledge. Even today, you are not even interested in learning how to find more oil or inventing better ways to pumpu it out -- you depend on the Western infidels to do it for you. You are much more interested in killing than in learning -- that's the problem with your whole society. And you hate people who would rather learn and progress chant violent slogans and kill.

Westerners: Let them drink their bloody oil. Let's support intensive research into alternative energy resources, buy Free World oil only, open up the ANWR to exploration, and conserve! We must DEMAND this from our politicians.

The Home Front grew Victory Gardens, conserved every possible resource, and pulled together to help us win WWII -- and we need to do the same today. On this Memorial Day weekend let us remember how our Greatest Generation defeated The Great Depression, Hitler and Tojo, and rebuilt Europe's war-torn economy from the ground up. Most were not college-educated or employed in professional jobs. But they pulled together and won with faith and determination and heart.

We can do the same.

Brother Jihadist:

These zionist kafirs are just trying to put hesitation to your heart as Almighty Allah (swt) says in our Holy Koran.
Many people here are neo-christian zionists who put some words from Holy Koran in front of you to put your Muslim heart in jeopardy. But as Almighty Allah (swt) showed us in Holy Koran, the final battle with kafirs bring them nothing than Holy Sword of Allah.

KC
Get a life, your zionist evil tricks to put some Holy Koran words in your posts are as old as a rotten apple.

If enough people become informed and upset, then something will be done. Slavery was abolished in this way. Prohibition was put in place in this way. Democracy was brought to Europe in this way. Universal suffrage was established by mass movements.

Another way something will happen is if Islam becomes bad for business. If the interests of the business and political elites become threatened by Islam, then something will be done. Money always talks. It pays for think tanks, political pundits and buys politicians. If big money begins to dislike Islam, believe me, we will hear it about in spades. I have hope for this latter angle as Islamists attack oil installations in Saudi Arabia. The economy of the whole world is very much threatened by attacks on Saudi oil. Don't be surprised if French troops are "invited" to assist the Saudis with their problems, just as they were when radicals took control of the Grand Mosque at Mecca in the 80s.

My Dear Fellow Infidels,

The posts by Mahmoud, Jihadist, Reza, etc. continue to expose the sinister truth about Islam. Don't go down to their level but rather use them as examples of the real threat we all face in the West and around the world. Inform and educate your family and friends to be wary of this evil so we may someday extinguish it from the face of the earth!

The time is here Christian brothers and sisters. Trust in the one true god JESUS CHRIST TO SAVE US AND PROTECT US FROM THIS DEVILISH SO CALLED RELIGION. THE FINAL HOLY WAR IS UPON US NOW. DONT LET YOURSELF SIT THERE AND DIE WITHOUT A FIGHT. DONT FEAR DEATH FOR DEATH WILL FIND YOU WHEN GOD WANTS YOU. BRING DEATH TO YOUR ENEMIES AND MAKE THERE FAMILIES FEAR YOU AND THE WORD OF THE ONE TRUE GOD. O LORD ALMIGHTY, YOU WHO EXAMINE THE RIGHTOUS AND PROBE THE HEART AND MIND, LET ME SEE YOUR VENGEANCE AND POWER UPON THEM, FOR TO YOU I HAVE COMMITTED MY CAUSE
JEREMIAH 20:12

"Don't be afraid. We won't kill Muslims even if you are an American," he quoted them as saying.

I feel really bad for these "jihadists" as they call themselves. I follow no religion but I get along with all my friends whom amongst them are Muslim, Catholic, Jewish and other religions. If these people can't just put down the guns and rederic and get along then they have been truly brainwashed by what they are taught in school as well as the radical clerics.

The question is, how can these brainwashed children/men get the real factual evidence on religion. Seems to me the way their ideology works is that if Allah doesn't intervene in a killing or bombing than it must mean that he approves of it. So shouldn't a failed bombing mean that it wasn't Allah's will and prove the resistance wrong?

It's interesting to see how the radical clerics and osama bin laden take text from the Koran out of context and apply it to the ongoings of modern day life. Then to see the following accept this out of context view just because of the source it is coming from rather than analyzing it themselves and making a decision.

I don't follow a religion. I was raised a Christian because of the reasons that most people are applied a religion, because thats what religion their parents were. I figured out that I don't need a religion to live my life. When I made the decision I lost nothing and gained everything. More free time on Sundays, a more practical view on life. As long as your a moral human, your okay with me.

I wonder if they held a gun to my face and asked me if I was Christian or Muslim and I said "I don't follow any religion". Would they have slit my throat like an animal? Who knows?

The taliban remind me of america during the slave days. Only the slaves are women and women rights. America finally realized they were wrong at one point and made a change that still rings after affects to this day. One day hopefully people will wake up on their own and realize religion is wrong. I say on their own because the way it looks now is that they are waiting for god or a prophet to come back and tell them what to do, which just isn't gonna happen, ever.

Q: What is the difference between Mahmoud, Reza, and Jihadist, and a jackhammer?

A: While Mahmoud, Reza, and Jihadist have more words available with which to speak, a jackhammer doesn't repeat itself as often.

BaDaBoom Kush!

Oh dear, Mahmoud,

Looks like you're falling short in following Muhammeds commands aswell;

Hadith - Bukhari's Book of Manners #313, Ahmad, Ibn Hibban, and Hakim
"... 'Abd Allah reported that the Prophet of Allah, upon him be peace, said, "A believer is not a fault-finder and is not abusive, obscene, or course."

Hoe to hear from you after your 'ablutions'

Regards,
kc

hope.

Mahmoud:

Πηγαίνετε στην κόλαση;

To Mahmoud:

Is it ok with you to hurt people because they dont want to be muslims? Is this supported by the Quran?

Btw there is a Norwegian group that recently got permission to shout "There is no god" over Oslo.

Reza, Mahmoud, Jihadist, et al:

My God Jesus Christ teaches me to love my neighbor and forgive my enemy. That's good advice for someone who wants to live spiritually. But I believe this only applies to human neighbors and enemies. As the Nicholas Berg video illustrates, you are animals . . . . you are pigs. I should no more forgive you than I would forgive a rabid dog for attacking my child. To hell with common sense, to hell with logic, and certainly to hell with political correctness. I count myself among those ready to fight . . . . .

SWE

Invest in oil companies that get their oil from outside of Saudi Arabia. Invest in things that reduce your energy use. It will be things like this that will reduce muslim revenues to a trickle and reduce their ability to bother us.

“Your grandchildren will be eating ham sandwiches outside of their Catholic church in Mecca”

They are killing muslims in daily bases in Iraq , Afghanistan, Palestion and everywhere and now they are craying for some pigs who takes part in the plundering of our oil .

we dont care about your pigs

ALL Earth kaffirs is not worth one muslim in ALLAH's and Muslim's eyes

Posted by: jihadist at May 30, 2004 02:13 PM

Foolish little boy.....watch your language on here, cretin! What's your malfunction? English speaking, must be stateside, where are you, creamcake? You and your tude......

More threats and abuse, Mr. Watson?

Your grandchildren will be Canadian.

Allahu akbar

By the way, jihadist.....I believe the word you're looking for is (basis), not bases.....(crying), not craying.....It's like you're insisting on taking a machete to the English language, as your comments clearly demonstrate your lack of intellect.

And Mahmoud (Twinkie), what's this? آمین یارب العالمین.....is it some sort of machete brotherhood symbol? Maybe someone should send this to the authorities to have it translated. You clowns think Americans are interested in your trash? You should leave the U.S. if you're here, you're not welcome.

Actually, with your own words and actions, you've gone from being a guest, to being an intruder. You're trespassing. That's not a good thing for you, many tresspassers in the U.S. meet a horrible, mysterious end.....You should be very careful on your way out of here.

I hope MY grandchildren will be Canadian. I know they won't be muslim.

"Your grandchildren will be Kosher cooks."

jp

Not a position I hear much, but one with which I certainly agree. Fighting wars in order to spread religion has got to be one of mankinds dumbest endevors. Its only lasting benefit is population control.

More threats and abuse, Mr. Watson?

Your grandchildren will be Canadian.

Allahu akbar

Posted by: Reza at May 30, 2004 03:47 PM

Promises Reza....abuse? If anyone knows about abuse, it'd be your kind....."kill, kill, kill" Mohammad (sboh) said we could, so let's kill....The cult of Islam will be wiped off the planet.

Your grandchildren will be rappers. Reza, it'd be good for you to choose your words more carefully. You aren't difficult to locate anymore. However, make sure you keep lying, as we expect nothing less from you.

Reza~ you are developing a sense of humor. Careful! Next you may begin thinking. In no time at all you may become a Westerner.

(I do find your attempts amusing tho)

SGT,

Wow..like dude you need a brain check too. Have a nice time in iraq murdering

Mike,

I was touched by your urge to restraint especially the
"Inform and educate your family and friends to be wary of this evil so we may someday extinguish it from the face of the earth!"
part. Aaa thanks mike you are a true altruist..how genuinely considerate of you.

Deathtojihad,

How sick are you. Can it be...a fanatic in our midst...bomb him..convert him to democracy now!

Jp,
Slavery still exists all over the world but its more abhorrent modern face is easily discernible in the scores of inner city poor all over our civilized 'western' democracies. Uneducated people bent on crime, drug-alcohol abuse, broken up families lack of conviction or belief.
(1 in 75 males in the US is incarcerated in the prison system) The rest of us are no strangers to aspirations (usually material ones). The decision on weather these actually constitute a form of slavery I leave to the individual to decide. My point is that without education there will always be slavery of one sort or the other and unfortunately I can't help but notice a sheer luck of it on this site.

panos,

patrida su synisto to "the kapetanios:Partisans and civil war in Greece, 1943-49" tou Dominique Eudes...auta ginonde tora sto iraq.

The manichaeism of Islam is beautifully displayed not only in the savage separation of Muslim and Infidel in Khobar, but also in the informative postings, with apposite quotations from Qur'an and hadith, adduced by various contributors. And that manichean division of the world between Muslim and non-Muslim, and the inability of the various Muslim posters to this site to refrain from telling the truth about their beliefs (they must make CAIR and other Muslim groups, not to mention Arab ambassadors in Washington, and Michael Sells, John Esposito, Michael Hudson, and a host of tireless migrant non-Muslims working in the vineyard of Muslim apologetics, most unhappy for not shutting up, or polishing their techniques of taqiyya before engaging in not "dialogue" of the interfaith racket sort, but "dialogue" of the kind that matters -- the kind that shows perfectly what Islamic beliefs are all about, and smiles, good manners, liquid looks, and so on can no longer obscure).

What is happening is extraordinary, akin to the way in which American colonists devoured Paine's anonymous Common Sense from January to July 1776, and moved from relative indifference to separation, to the Declaration we all know so well. At this website, and at others akin to it, and despite the official propaganda from on high about "extremists" and the general inoffensiveness of Islam, few are buying. Instead, in a great national effort of self-study, of refusing to accept the treacly nonsense that is offered, large numbers of people are beginning to note the observable behavior of Muslims around the world, beginning to unearth the stories not covered in the Western press or if covered, presented in a distorted light (all those "ethnic clashes" in Indonesia and Nigeria, for example, which are really attacks by Muslims against Christians, and an occasional Christian counter-attack after every conceivable Muslim provocation) and beginning, as well, to study Qur'an (not in the sanitized Sells version of "lyric suras" either) and hadith. What chills this must send down the spines of MESA members. What cheeck, what chutzpah, these people have, who begin to study Islam and will not accept our carefuly received version of it. What must Roy Mottahedeh think, when his disgraceful NY Times Op/Ed piece explaiing away "Jihad" is seen, and discussed, as the nonsense it is (Mottahedeh is not a PLO groupie like his colleague Roger Owens; he even as an unIslamic sense of humor, as in his quoting of Robert Benchley in one book -- but when it comes to Islam, he refuses to speak the truth; to expect him, or his fellows, to begin to speak the truth about the tenets of Islam, and not simply "Wahhabism," to ask that they take note of Bat Ye'or's scholarship and evidence, or of the scholarship of Armand Abel, K. S. Lal, Mary Boyce (on the Muslim-inflicted torment, in Iran, on Zoroastrians -- including the torture of dogs because they are sacred to Zoroastrians), G. H. Bousquet, Joseph Schacht, Majid Khadduri, Margoliouth, Arthur Jeffery, Snouck Hurgronje, and many others, from recent and not-so-recent decades, who have laid out the Muslim record of mistreatment of non-Muslims. The evidence is so strong, and so similar, from what was done to the Christians in Syria to what was done to the Zoroastrians in Persia, or to the Hindus thousands of miles away, and even the treatment of Byzantine churches is not much different from the destruction of tens of thousands of Hindu temples, or the Greco-Buddhist civilization, and statuary, of Afghanistan, that to deny it cannot be done any longer. Or if it is done, the students -- who themselves can get hold of the Index Islamicus, can themselves find out what ex-Muslims write at www.secularislam.org and www.faithfreedom.org, can consult the scholarship at www.dhimmitude.org, as so many of those posting here have been doing, joined by more and more -- no, it is too late for MESA.

And what is most amusing about this is that obnoxious bumpersticker QUESTION AUTHORITY, which has been used almost exclusively by those on the left, to mean of course: question those in our ruling elites, question those who support American foreign policy and the Pentagon, has been given a new, wonderful, legitimate meaning.

Everyone here, whatever their background, whether they knew nothing about Islam a year or a month ago, whether they are descended from those who were persecuted by Muslims in Syria or Lebanon, in Turkey or in Pakistan, or whose ancestors endured Muslim rule in India, or in Indonesia, or in the Sudan, or perhaps had no familial connection to Islam at all, has begun to question authority. Bernard Lewis no longer satisfies as he once did. And those who consider themselves professors of Middle Eastern studies -- such PLO promoters as Rashid Khalidi, or Joel Beinin -- are simply not listened to but mocked, as they deserve to be. They have taught nothing truthful about the main subject: Islam.Some of them, it is clear, know nothing about the matter. Others know perfectly, but are practitioners of deception. After all, those who promote the PLO and the "Palestinian people" do not want anyone looking too closely at the basis of Muslim fury against Israel, which is its existance as a non-Muslim sovereignty. They do not want close attention to Muslim rules of war and peacemaking, which make any treaty with any Infidel state not a peace treaty but merely a truce treaty, based on Muhammad's traty of al-Hudaibiyya with the Meccans in 628. If the assault on Israel does not depend -- and it does not -- on Israel's size, and if negotiations and treaties are essentially worthless (and they are), so that Israel must rely entirely on overwhelming deterrence, including the deterrrent effect of possessing the land it currently controls, with no further surrenders (in retrospect, giving up the Sinai was lunacy for Israel, and lunacy for the United States -- it was a perfect place for American bases, and if the Sinai is lost again, let us hope it never is surrendered to Egypt, of which it was never a part until 1922).

Question Authority takes on, at Jihadwatch and elsewhere, real meaning. We refuse to be fooled and conned. Too much is at stake. If universities persist in hiring, and promoting, and locking in with tenure, people who lie and lie about Islam, then let alumni punish them in the only currency they understand -- cash, check, or money order.

And Mahmoud (Twinkie), what's this? آمین یارب العالمین.....is it some sort of machete brotherhood symbol? Maybe someone should send this to the authorities to have it translated. You clowns think Americans are interested in your trash? You should leave the U.S. if you're here, you're not welcome.
Poster By Indifel Watson

It seems your ignorance is rampant! You are so incompetent to read 3 arabic words to realise a simple Islamic pray and Yet you act like you know all about our Holy Religion Islam. What a Shame for humanity you are. The sicks like you who put their ego and ill will before their common sense.
Once again, the luring evil force of Shaitan al-rajim in your ill mind was poven by the Power of Almighty Allah (swt).
Send it to your authorities yep! You will make yourself The Joke Of The Day in whole america, as you are already here.

You grandchildren will recite Holy Koran in Miami Beach.

EPG
“Mahmoud - At least you are honest about YOUR intentions. You insist that the whole world become Muslim. Guess, what, we don't want to be Muslim, nor do we want to live under Sharia nor put up with the deception of Islam.”
Fine, don’t be Muslim. That’s not my problem, but your and Gods alone. We Muslims have done our duty to spread Islam to the ignorant, despite the fact that there are thousands of misconceptions regarding Islam.
“Peace, for you, is not the absence of strife, but the absence of enemies.”
First of all, peace can only come about when we have no strife or ENEMIES WHO DO CAUSE HATRED BETWEEN OTHERS. I would like to hear your definition of peace.

Mike:
“My common sense tells me we need to stand up and resist this evil.”
Um…yes, good for you. I am sure it is a natural instinct to stand up and resist evil. However, if you are resisting Islam (which you may consider evil from wherever sources you received invalid information from), then I advise you to stop. Think before you act. Go and learn more about Islam before allowing yourself to spread erroneous information about it.

Soldier of christ
“So basically, mahmoud, you are saying to us 'convert or die'. Correct me if i am wrong.”
Why bother, Soldier of Christ? Even if the Muslims did correct you, I am certain that you wont allow yourself to admit to the correction.

Keith
“Reza, you poor fool, are you so simple minded, or so brainwashed, that you cannot put the remarks of your so-called prophet in their historical context? Never mind, it's a rhetorical question.”
It seems to me as if Reza isn’t the one who’s a fool…believe me, I can relate. OK, Keith, you may think of her as simple-minded, but in truth, she isn’t. At least she recognizes the truth when she sees it, and surrenders to the will of God, and strives to spread and correct the true word of Allah.

Kc (england)

Sura 48:29
"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves."

Ok, so you’re still at it.. Well, so am I, and I (insha allah) will be ready to answer and correct your comments concerning Islam. (o yes, hello, this is Dina again). From our previous discussion, I recall you telling me not to take statements out of their context, well, the same applies for you. Before you go tell others to do certain things, make sure you yourself do them, or that will be truly a sign of a hypocrite ( correct me if I’m mistaken). Anyway, here is the whole ayah:

48:29 “Muhammad is the apostle of Allah and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.”

The word that was presented in the ayah you mentioned was inappropriate. Non Muslims have been living in the Islamic State and they were guaranteed full protection of their lives, property, and honor. This command of fighting against people till they profess the oneness of Allah, and establish prayer and pay Zakat, pertains to the apostates.
Kc (england)

Sura 48:29
"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves."

Ok, so you’re still at it.. Well, so am I, and I (insha allah) will be ready to answer and correct your comments concerning Islam. (o yes, hello, this is Dina again). From our previous discussion, I recall you telling me not to take statements out of their context, well, the same applies for you. Before you go tell others to do certain things, make sure you yourself do them, or that will be truly a sign of a hypocrite ( correct me if I’m mistaken). Anyway, here is the whole ayah:

48:29 “Muhammad is the apostle of Allah and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.”

The word that was presented in the ayah you mentioned was inappropriate. Non Muslims have been living in the Islamic State and they were guaranteed full protection of their lives, property, and honor. This command of fighting against people till they profess the oneness of Allah, and establish prayer and pay Zakat, pertains to the apostates.

“And one of Allahs' names is "Most Merciful"??
Sorry, but am I missing something here?”
Yes, Allah is very Merciful, and yes, you are missing a lot. If you know how many sins Allah forgives every day, then you will not be saying this. If you know how much rewards we receive for a simple deed, then you will not be saying this. But, as every other religion, there comes to a point where one cannot ignore the fact that there a hypocrites, who know the truth, yet pretend they don’t. There are hypocrites, who say they follow Islam, but their behavior and attitude contradict to what Islam says.
I really dont understand you people. There are thousands of people out there, who have converted to Islam. why do you guys allow yourself to judge a religion based on lies, and misconceptions? Look at Yusuf Estes, who used to be a priest in Chrisitanity, who converted to Islam!http://www.islamfortoday.com/yusufestes.htm
Look at CatStevens, who used to be this popular popstar singer, who coverted to Islam!
http://catstevens.com/discography/people/00001.html
And if you are still not satisfied, go read one of Paul Findleys book, Silent No More, who was a member of the congress for 22 years. Maybe you'll learn a thing or to. Even though he may not be a Muslim, he at least does not allow concocted and false statements about islam obstruct his way from judging Islam the way it truly is.

Salams,
Dina

You know? Im sick of islam, im sick of all this BS. These people are coming into our country and trying to take over, this is an islamic invasion to take over america, except that there are no guns involved. You know how they do it? they come here and each one of them get 5, 10, 15 children, this way their population grows in an extroadinary way and outgrows ours by massive differences.

They say islam is the fastet growing religion. BS. Its only fast growing beacuse the average pop growth rate in countries like saudia arabia a staggering 4-5% while countries like australia are struggling to keep the population growth in the positive side, in fact, russia's population is in decline. Compare that with 5% increase in pakista, saudia arabia, etc and you'll find the reason why islam is the fastest growing religion. You know what bothers me the most? these 5,10,15 children often grow up without any education, may it be from their parents or from school. They life a bad childhood being neglected by their parents and end up as criminals and murderers.

I have decided to join the US army to fight this evil called islam

oops, sorry, one of my post came up twice. Please disregard that.

Salams,
Dina

SGT,

Wow..like dude you need a brain check too. Have a nice time in iraq murdering

Sorry arxos, I am not a dude and I don't murder.

arxos,
Fanatic yes I am and very proud of it, Yes i am a fan of my country,
NOUN: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.
YOUR damn right im a fanatic for the USA and my religon.. All i see in your words is putting people down who see the truth of the matter here. and the truth is this country is under attack, the christian and jewish religon is under attack, Now if you have muslim extremists yelling JIHAD doesnt that mean holy war. WOW who did they call a holy war against. ME,MY FAMILY, MY COUNTRY AND MY RELIGION. EVERYTHING IM WILLING TO FIGHT AND DIE FOR.
JEREMIAH 20:12

The LORD is with me like a mighty warrior;
so my persecutors will stumble and not prevail.
They will fail and be thoroughly disgraced;
their dishonor will never be forgotten.
12 O LORD Almighty, you who examine the righteous
and probe the heart and mind,
let me see your vengeance upon them,
for to you I have committed my cause.

13 Sing to the LORD !
Give praise to the LORD !
He rescues the life of the needy
from the hands of the wicked.

Reza,
US provoke YOU? You guys really have been sniffing carpet dyes too long, yes?
We (the civilized world) really do need to use all our alternative fuels, Stop buying anything from any muslim dominated country, cut any country even remotely muslim from ANY aide program/s, shutter the door from anyone muslim from entering our country, then deport anyone found inside our country having any caldean DNA,so that you can all wallow in your "perfect & merciful" little world,elsewhere. We should meet any attack on any civiized world partner not muslim,by muslim terrorists with devastating attacks on muslim sites... Reduce them to rubble, then blast the rubble to sand...or glass. Suicide bomber in Israel, Najaf is GONE. Attack another compound, Raffallah is wiped from the face of the earth, etc. Not pillars of salt, but plains of glass. whatever it takes...till your own "brothers & sisters" curse the day your religion was created.
But then I have had more than a bellyful of this type of "Muslim"

Dina,

The more I learn about Islam, the more I am thankful I was raised Christian. I also know that with the exception of the Catholic/Protestant conflict in Ireland, all the major conflicts in the world today involve Muslims not getting along with their neighbors. One current event in Africa has gangs of Muslims murdering peaceful Christians just because they are Christians. They use Islam to justify their atrocities! What do you think about those telling videos on MEMRI.org? Those hateful Friday sermons in Mosques - places of worship? The brainwashed hatred of Jews coming out of a three year old girl? Of course how can I trust your answer with what I have heard about the Islamic practice of "taqqiya" from this site?

Dina;
"This command of fighting against people till they profess the oneness of Allah, and establish prayer and pay Zakat, pertains to the apostates.

Oh really?

Then please explain this verse;
The Qur'an (Noble version) 9:29;
"Fight against those who believe not in Allâh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Seems pretty clear to me.

Regards,

kc

Dina wrote:
"We Muslims have done our duty to spread Islam to the ignorant, despite the fact that there are thousands of misconceptions regarding Islam. "

Then why not accept ahmaddiyas in pakistan (who
want to be called as muslims) in the fold of Islam ?

peaceful shit Christians with B52 , Apatchi , closter Bombs, Nuckes , Moabs, orange agent...

You are the most mass killers in all humain history millions of civilians has been killed by your dirty Hands .

Apparently we Missed a few of you, jihadist. Rest assured if you keep pushing that won't last much longer.

To anyone who reads here: I was watching a show about volunteerism (Canadians) in Vietnam and other countries last night. In a clip from Vietnam I saw two women, dressed head to toe in long white dresses, faces completely covered save for the eyes. Clues, please? These outfits did not match anything I have seen before.

Wow that jihadist should switch to decaf.

I would point out the obvious, most killing done these days by any western countries is not done in the name of Jesus or Jehovah, unlike these lunatics from islam, who constantly kill in the name of mohamed and allah.

“Your grandchildren will work in a pork sausage plant”

JIHADIST
ITS AGENT ORANGE DAMN IT, AND THAT WAS USED TO KILL FORREST AREAS, AND YES CHRISTIANS ARE MOSTLY PEACEFUL PEOPLE UNTIL YOU PISS US OFF AS YOUR DUMB BUDDIES HAVE, AND THEN THE GLOVES ARE OFF, CHRISTIANS ARE NOT ONLY AMERICANS DUMB ASS, AMERICA, MY COUNTRY MADE ALL THOSE GREAT WEAPONS YOU SPEAK OF FOR THE PROTECTION AND DESTRUCTION OF YOUR BUDDIES, THE ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS.

Mike:
"One current event in Africa has gangs of Muslims murdering peaceful Christians just because they are Christians.
Yes, I agree, to what you said about Muslims fighting Muslims. It is disgusting to watch this happen, and that is why these nominal followers must start acting accordingly to the regulations of Islam. And, again, in Islam, it is prohibited to kill innocent people.
"They use Islam to justify their atrocities!"
which is wrong, and which no one stated is correct, and allowed in Islam. You can't just go and perform an action that Islam does not allow, and then go and use it to justify what they are doing?!Go, and read the Quran before you start making comments. You should realize that Islam is not the way it is being potrayed by these so-called Muslims. How hard is that for you to understand? You guys still insist on learning Islam from stereotypes. It's you guys who need the education. You guys need to go and learn how to research without allowing biased information hinder your way.
You seemed to have completely 'overlooked,' everything I have said about Yusuf Estes, and Cat Stevens, and even Paul Findley. Oh well, it is hard to accept truth when it hits you hard on the face, so I'll just accept your silence as a, 'damn-it, she got me,' defeat.

Salams,
Dina

Sister Dina,

The trick of taking statements out of the context of Holy Koran is a daily sorcery here on JihadWatch and is oftenly used by those who are doing all they can to impose Muslims rights to live under Holy Rule of Almighty Allah (swt) in our own Islamic countries.

As Almighty Allah (swt) says these Idol-Whorshipers will NEVER believe so as more as you discuss with them as more they come up with new excuses to waste your time. There are more real americans who want to learn about Islam from scratch, away from the propaganda of this kind of kafirs who will never ever believe and are decieving the people of their countries and making them affraid of peacefull Islam by the way of imposing their military powers us. Arguing with them is pointless and they exactly wants to waste your time here and distracting Muslims from giving their true peaceful who wants to listen to you. There are lots of americans who don't want war and they want to live in peace with Muslim brother and sisters.

Unfortunatly untill their governments are corrupted by the same ignorant minds as you see here taking false contexts out of Holy Koran, the only way they have to prove their rights to us is their military aggression.

"the only way they have to prove their rights"

Yes, Mahmoud, our rights, which you are attempting to infringe upon. When our rights are in question we do use "military aggression".

Its so sad you approve of the current massacre of innocent Christians in Nigeria Jihadist.

You want to talk history? How about what the Ottoman Moslem Turks did to the Christian minority in northern Iraq during WWI? Yep, brutally wiped them out...

To me Jihadist, you are the face of Islam and it is not pretty.

Kc(england):
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Allah is telling the Muslims to fight back to those who DO NOT allow the Muslims to practice their religion, those people who refuse to believe Allah, and acknowledge the Day of Judgement. Allah (SWT), is telling us, that we are allowed to fight back against those who refuse to let us practice our religion. I am sure that if that were to happen to you, then you would fight back, regardless of whether it is allowed by Jesus or not.
Jizya means tax. In the past, when the Caliphs ruled their people ACCORDING to the Sharia, they allowed the Non-muslims to follow the religion they wanted, as long as they tolerated Islam, and payed a certain amount of tax. If they were the people of the Book, (jews, and christians), they were to pay a lesser amount of tax than those who were not the People of the Book. I hope that this explains the ayah to you. And, please, I would love to hear your response to my previous post on Yusuf Estes, Cat Stevens, and Paul Findley.

Salams,
Dina

If our government are corrupted why in hell's sake are muslims flooding to here?

If our government are corrupted why in hell's sake are muslims flooding to here?

Mahmoud,

"There are lots of americans who don't want war and they want to live in peace with Muslim brother and sisters."

Indeed you are right my dear Mahmoud, unfortunately it's the "Muslim brother and sisters" who don't want to live in peace with Americans or anyone else. Your posting reeks of contempt and hatred for "Idol-Worshippers" and "kaffirs", you sound like an SS man ranting about his superiority to inferior people. Fundamentalist Islam is the closest thing we have to Nazism in the 21st century.

"You want to talk history? How about what the Ottoman Moslem Turks did to the Christian minority in northern Iraq during WWI? Yep, brutally wiped them out..."

Ok, so what did they do to them. Maybe if you can 'enlighten' me with some of your information, I might be able to point out some things.
And, dont even go there, mike. If you want to hear what the Christians did to other people, especially the Muslims for no apparent reason, then I'm sure your bloods going to run cold.

Salams,
Dina

"Jizya means tax"

Incorrect.

Jizya comes from the root word 'jaza2' meaning punishment. So, in other words jizya is punishment NOT tax.

Brother Mahmoud,
It is a duty for every Muslim, to make Dawah to the ignorant. However, we should not 'burden' them with the beliefs and religious practices. We should, at first, winnow out the mistaken notions which had obviously been taken a firm root in their minds. And, that is what I am here for, and until I feel that it is necessary to give up, then I will do so. And until I feel that these people are arguing for the sake of arguing, then I will leave. Insha allah, they will realize the truth of Islam. And, to all of you, I am not here to convert you guys to Islam. That is up to you, however, I am here, as mentioned before, to clarify invalid points regarding Islam. Brother, insha allah, we, the Muslims, will begin to realize how wrongly we have been acting, and that our Iman, and our faith in our Lord is completely diminishing. If we feared our Lord, then none of these so-called Muslims would be beahving this way. Then none of the non-muslims would have found an excuse to deny the truth.

Soldier of Christ:
"If our government are corrupted why in hell's sake are muslims flooding to here?"
Actually, Muslims ar not flooding in here. They are flooding out of here. And for those that are coming in, you cant blame them. They still haven't got the bitter taste of reality,and they still think that America is truly a country of freedom. But they will once they have arrived.

Salams,
Dina

Dina:

Muslims ARE flooding to europe and america hoping for a better life and an escape from the opression they face from their own governments in the 'muslim' world. Beleive it or not, muslims are flocking like sheep to the US and Europe to live a better life.

Jizya comes from the root word 'jaza2' meaning punishment. So, in other words jizya is punishment NOT tax."
YOU are incorrect. Jizya means a tax imposed on non-Muslims who are under Muslim country. I would like to know from which source you have recieved your information from.

Salams,
Dina

PS-It seems as if no one is capable of responding to my previous post on Yusuf Estes, who as I repeat, was a former priest in christianity, to Paul Findley, who was a member of the congress for 22 years, who wrote, "Silent No More," to Cat Stevens now known as Yusuf Islam, who was former a pop star.

Soldiers of Christ:
"Muslims ARE flooding to europe and america hoping for a better life and an escape from the opression they face from their own governments in the 'muslim' world."
Exactly, from the so-called Muslim world. Not one so called Muslim country complys with that of the Sharia. And America does give freedom, and rights to people of various cultures and ethnic backgrounds. However, it seems as if slowly, America is changing, (ie. passing laws that contradict the Constitution). Sooner, or later, America cannot be called "The Land of the Free."

Salams,
Dina

About Jizya, read here. And yes, it is a punishment:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=532

http://www.dhimmi.com/

Gary:
“To anyone who reads here: I was watching a show about volunteerism (Canadians) in Vietnam and other countries last night. In a clip from Vietnam I saw two women, dressed head to toe in long white dresses, faces completely covered save for the eyes. Clues, please? These outfits did not match anything I have seen before.”
So, what’re you trying to say?

Dina, Regarding the Assyrian Holocaust:

http://www.atour.com/holocaust/

Dina, how do the conversions of a few people "prove" that Islam is true or good? The Chistians here can point to many people who converted out of Islam to Christianity too, such as Mark Gabriel. a former scholar at Al-Azhar and the two Caner brothers. Neither situation "proves" anything.

We have heard these conversion stories again and again -- Muslims always pull them out when they can't argue the facts properly. They "prove" nothing. We're not impressed; that is why no one is responding to you. Your "proof" is illogical and childish.

Regarding Muslim immigration to the West -- lots of them are "asylum seekers" accepted from places where they were in danger of being persecuted such as Soviet- and Taliban-era Afghanistan and Saddam-era Iraq. Many, many Afghans came to my state in the late 70s, after the Soviets invaded, to escape the war.

Especially the socialist, idealistic Western European people took in hundreds of thousands of these people and offered them mighty nice welfare benefits too which most of them are still making benefit of.

These Muslim "asylum seekers" have rewarded their benefactors for their kindness by raping their women, committing all kinds of apalling crimes, and sucking up excessive welfare benefits that are needed to support Europe's own elderly indigenous people.

When have Muslims ever offered refuge like this to persecuted Christians? Never.

"However, it seems as if slowly, America is changing, (ie. passing laws that contradict the Constitution). Sooner, or later, America cannot be called "The Land of the Free."

Well, we don't want to give rights to people who would turn around and use them to take those rights away from us if they were in the majority -- i.e. Muslims. We don't force Muslims to pay a special tax for the privilege of practicing their religion in America, but Muslims would do this to us if they had the upper hand. We don't expect Muslims to live as second-class citizens without the same legal rights as other Americans, but Muslims would do this to us if they had the chance.

Is that fair? When you go to someone's country and start blabbering about how you would like to change their laws around so that YOU are top dog and they are second-class citizens, how do you expect the residents of that country to behave?

You expect them to welcome you with open arms?

Dream on, lady!!! If you want to live by apartheid-sharia system be my guest - but you ain't doing it in America or any other Western country. Go find some nice backward Muslim country to practice your sharia in.

Ali Dashti
From the websites you have given me, I will assume that you are a non-muslim under a Muslim name, which is extremely low.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531 FRODO,a Christian no doubt, defines Jizya the way he perceives it. There is no way I will accept this.

http://www.dhimmi.com/- AND THIS ONE, I DONT SEE WHERE IT DEFINES JIZYA. ALL IT TALKS ABOUT IS DHIMMI- WHICH IS: a non-Muslim living under the protection of a Muslim state. He is exempt from duties of Islam like military and zakah but must instead pay a tax called jizyah. In addition, this is supported by the jihadwatch.com, which aids in spreading invalid statements regarding Islam.
And, first of all, I wasn't asking you for the definition of Jizya, I wanted to see where he got it from. The definition of Jizya is at this website:

http://www.islamicity.com/IslamicGlossary/action.lasso.asp?database=Services&Table=IslamicGlossary&-noresultserror=SearchGlossary.asp&Response=SearchGlossary.asp&-MaxRecords=10&-SortField=Term& ortOrder=Ascending&-op=cn&fsearch=Jizya&-find

Salams,
Dina

Sunnis riot in Pakistan and persecute Shiias after shooting of Sunni cleric:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2997871

The Religion of Peace strikes again.

"I would like to know from which source you have recieved your information from. "

My mum is a syrian, i speak arabic.

Jizya comes from the word jaza2 which is punishment and you cannot try to teach me my arabic because I know it. Jizya is NOT tax. Tax is 'dareeba' which is different.

Dina,

Per your description, a non Muslim living in a Muslim state is, in fact, a second class citizen. He pays a special tax (the Jizya)and is precluded from serving his country in any cpacity. Too, a non Muslim is restircted as to as where he can live and what kind of work he can do. I wouldn't call this "living under the protection of a Muslim state", I'd call it involuntary servitude.

Dina, welcome,
we are the Free,
we have different creeds,
are from different levels of society,
we are many colors,
red, yellow black and white
and we are equal on this site
that is guarded by the ancestors,
who look into the left eye
and can tell who tells the lie,
who has the evil eye.

Here are some things about us, the Free,
we hold sacred, life, land, liberty,
we think you should be a good neighbor,
we think you should treat everyone the same
as you treat yourself.
My name is the poetess.

Hi Dina,

No, I don't feel defeated because I didn't respond about Cat Steven's conversion. Susan answered about that eloquently.

Actually, you haven't responded to my post regarding the brainwashed 3 year old child; in addition, you have not remarked about the hate sermons going on in mosques seen on the videos at MEMRI.org. So I take it from your definition of silence that you yourself are defeated on those accounts.

I hope you someday come to the Truth and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.

Take care and God Bless.

Dina:

"PS-It seems as if no one is capable of responding to my previous post on Yusuf Estes, who as I repeat, was a former priest in christianity, to Paul Findley, who was a member of the congress for 22 years, who wrote, "Silent No More," to Cat Stevens now known as Yusuf Islam, who was former a pop star.

Posted by: Dina at May 30, 2004 06:23 PM"

We'll answer you right after you explain to us why Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina and many others have seen the light and LEFT Islam. Have you read "Leaving Islam - Apostates Speak Out" or "Why I am Not a Muslim"? HAVE YOU DARED TO GO TO MEMRI.ORG AND WATCH THE ACTUAL VIDEOS OF HATEFUL PREACHING IN MOSQUES? You claim to "know" the truth and yet we are the ones who have done all the research - from MANY sources, not just your "one" source - the satanic qur'an.

Dina~ we get posters here from all over the world (despite the fact that Mahmoud and others seem to beleive we are all Americans posting). I am not familiar with that style of dress and wanted clarification.
It Does look like a version of how women are forced to dress in muslim countries. But as I do Not know for sure, I asked.
So. Why are You reading so much into what I asked?

Hi Dina - one more thing. Please explain to me your definition of Taqiyya. I would like to know what you think about that. I have to go, but will check back later this evening.

Thanks,
Mike

Susan:
We have heard these conversion stories again and again -- Muslims always pull them out when they can't argue the facts properly. They "prove" nothing.

Prove nothing? What do you mean prove nothing? Yusuf Estes was a former priest for YOUR RELIGION. Those people you mentioned are not Sheikhs or Imans. There is not one sheikh or Iman who has converted out of Islam. And for those idiots who did, you know why? Because Islam prohibits people to be attracted toward this materialistic world, and Allah constantly reminds us that there is Afterlife. Islam prohibits many things, only for the good. Those people just couldnt handle it. example- the pork you guys eat, is unlawful for us to eat. Why? Very simple, unless you want those worms in your stomach which is a leading cause for our death, then sure, go ahead. Example- reason Muslim believing women are required to cover outdoors- so that people do not judge us for our looks, rather for what lay in our heart. If this and many other rules is impossible for them to follow, then there are many other religions to follow. Christianity, for example, allows you to do whatever you want, eat whatever you want, drink whatever you want, or wear whatever you want, as long as you accept the blood of Jesus to cleanse your sins. Islam prohibits and allows things only for the good of the people. Islam is way of life, and if thats too difficult for them to understand, then they will have Allah to deal with.

When have Muslims ever offered refuge like this to persecuted Christians? Never."
Wrong, they have. When Christians capture and imprison Muslims, you do not let them go until you have tortured and harassed them. However, during our Prophets (S) time, when the Christian captives were caught, they were allowed to go free, with not a single scratch on their body.

I am not here to change Americas law according to our Sharia. And, again, you ignorant people seem to judge our religion based on nominal followers, and stereotypes. Tell me, have you ever opened up the Quran, and read it yourself? Obviosuly not, because I would not have to listen to all this nonsense. I advise you, open up the Quran yourself, and read what it has to say, before spreading lies about it. I really feel sorry for you guys on the Day of Judgement.

Salams,
Dina

Dina:

"I really feel sorry for you guys on the Day of Judgement."

Fortunately, that day is coming REAl SOON for oh, about a BILLION Muslims.

Dina wrote: "Allah (SWT), is telling us, that we are allowed to fight back against those who refuse to let us practice our religion"

Does this mean that it is allowed to fight those who refuse to apply sharia in Sweden for example?

Am I an enemy for being for western democracy and human rights?

Am I an enemy that should be fought with weapons because I think and say that Mohammad was one of the more evil founders of religions?

You people can believe a lot of things if you like but I will hold on to my secular/rationalist/social democratic views and change then when I choose freely to do so.

"When have Muslims ever offered refuge like this to persecuted Christians? Never."
Wrong, they have. When Christians capture and imprison Muslims, you do not let them go until you have tortured and harassed them. However, during our Prophets (S) time, when the Christian captives were caught, they were allowed to go free, with not a single scratch on their body."

No, millions of Christians were captured and sold as slaves in the Muslim world for centuries. Captured Christian women made up most of the harems of the Ottoman Sultans. Captured Christian boys were forced to convert to Islam and fight in the Muslim armies. This went on for centuries.

I repeat, When did Muslims ever provide refuge for Christians who were being persecuted in their own lands? When did Muslims provide welfare benefits, modern apartments, food and job hunting skills to Christians fleeing from war or persecution?

In the US we provided refuge and resettlement for Afghans, Iragis, Bosnians, Iranians, Kosovars and Albanians who were all being persecuted and/or fleeing war-torn situations. US took in 90,000 refugees from the Balkan war alone.

I've met some of these people myself. Many Christian churches worked in resettling these people and gave of their own charity to Muslim settlers and refugees. The Western European people did the same, even providing free medical care and fat welfare benefits for jihadi scum who want to destroy their way of life! When did the Muslims ever provide fat welfare benefits and free medical care to refugee Christians who then turned around and said they wanted to destroy the Muslim way of life? Never happened!

You haven't answered my question Dina -- when did Muslims ever give Christians refuge from persecution and/or war?

Dina

Yes, I've heard of Cat Stevens. He was caught donating money to Hamas, a group of genocidal terrorists whose aim is the complete destruction of Israel. I think I preferred him before he converted to Islam. His music may have been worthless pap, but at least he wasn't actively supporting genocide against non-Muslims.

Dina - Go up to Hugh's post. He has eloquently outclassed you. As for taking parts of the Koran and hadiths, we use them to make a point. He really has said everything that needs to be said and we are the post scripts.

We are reading to learn more about a culture and ideology that is threatening our existence and we will continue to do so.

If we were in the shoes of immigrants to an Islamic country, we would not have the political and religious rights that Muslims enjoy in this country. We would be second-class citizens, dhimmis, at best, or perhaps we would have been multilated or killed.

It must be a shock to know that people here actually don't want to become Muslim and don't want Islam forced down their throats. We don't want to live under Sharia. We expect immigrants to conform and to assimilate to American culture. If they don't want to do so, or are unable to do so, they are free to return to their countries of origin.

Cat Stevens also supported the death fatwa on Salman Rushdie. He said that if he saw Rushdie in his neighborhood he'd call up some Muslim friends of his he knew who wanted to kill Rushdie and tell them to come over and get them.

Cat Stevens also supports sharia in Britain.

Very peaceful kind of guy. NOT!

Cat Stevens also supported the death fatwa on Salman Rushdie. He said that if he saw Rushdie in his neighborhood he'd call up some Muslim friends of his he knew who wanted to kill Rushdie and tell them to come over and get him.

Cat Stevens also supports sharia in Britain.

Very peaceful kind of guy. NOT!

Dina,

"I really feel sorry for you guys on the day of Judgement."

What an amazing statement! So not only are we non-Muslims to be treated as second class citizens on Earth, we can't even gain Paradise! Are you presuming to speak for Allah?

Actually, any Paradise that harbors bigots like you and Mahmoud isn't worth being in.

Sorry for the double post.

Soldiers christ
“My mum is a syrian, i speak arabic.
Jizya comes from the word jaza2 which is punishment and you cannot try to teach me my arabic because I know it. Jizya is NOT tax. Tax is 'dareeba' which is different.”
Well, as we are all humans, we do make mistakes. Just becasue you're mum is syrian and speaks Arabic, does not mean she knows islam. There are always several meanings for one word, but the one kc brought up had to do with tax. Jizya is tax, and this is final.

Mike
“No, I don't feel defeated because I didn't respond about Cat Steven's conversion. Susan answered about that eloquently.”
Maybe because you and neither she couldn’t?

“Actually, you haven't responded to my post regarding the brainwashed 3 year old child; in addition, you have not remarked about the hate sermons going on in mosques seen on the videos at MEMRI.org. So I take it from your definition of silence that you yourself are defeated on those accounts.”
You want to know why? Because, do I know this three year old girl? Do I know who you are talking about? From all these lies you are telling me about Islam, do you think I will believe what you say about the three year girl. In the world we are living in, kids are maturing so fast, and they are being taught things which should not be taught. They are viewing scenes, which change their whole child-like mind. They are seeing their Muslim brother being shot by three Israeli soldiers, who shoot despite the fact the he screamed and cried and hid in his fathers lap behind a small square stone. Despite the fact that both he, and his dad asked for mercy. Despite the fact that he was only a 5 year old. How can you ignore that? How can somone just let that go, and how can three human beings have the audacity to kill a younng boy. In fact, they killed him, but not the father, who asked NOT FOR HIS LIFE, BUT FOR HIS SON! I can tell you so many more stories, Mike. You want to know why I didn’t respond? Because, if I did I would go on and on, and this stupid website will not allow me to post my comments, in a country where speech and writing is supposedly allowed. Brainwashed? You tell me who’s brainwashing her.

Gary:
“It Does look like a version of how women are forced to dress in muslim countries. But as I do Not know for sure, I asked.
So. Why are You reading so much into what I asked.”

I really don’t know whether to laugh or cry. So why am I reading? O gee, Gary, I really don’t know. Maybe because this website allows people to post stuff up, (ie. To respond to other peoples statement). I don’t know what you’ve been doing, Gary, but, see, I read what other people write, and I tend to respond to what they write. I don’t know if that sounds weird to you, but I do that so please, forgive me for acting like a human being.
OK, you may think that because women do not go out with their legs showing, and their breasts hanging out, and other disgusting images, that they are oppressed? Just because they CHOOSE to cover themselves from head to toe, that means they are being oppressed? We, the true believing Muslim women, wear our scarves, cover ourselves out in the public so that people recognize us for who we are, and how we make of ourselves, not for our physical persona, and for our bodies. Women, are being constantly used and misused as objects in this world. “Don’t judge a book by its cover.” This old adage has been repeatedly told to younger kids, whose ears are worn out from hearing it. Regardless, it seems as if majorities of people do not comply with this proverb, and continue judging other people by their appearance rather then by their personality. Physical persona does and should not play any role. It is the inside that counts not the outside. That is why we wear our scarves. The Hijab is an approach that stops the meaningless display of women who are constantly being used and misused as objects in today’s world. Hijab gives one an identity, and people begin to see the real you! They begin to see beyond your physical attributes, and that my brothers and sisters, is the greatest freedom anyone can ever ask for.

Salams
Dina

Dina, I know that Muslim men get 72 virgins when they get to paradise, but what do the women get? 72 piles of laundry? And by the way, thanks SO much for trying to whitewash a religion where it's permissible to beat women, you're doing a really GREAT job, sister.

Dina: "Ali Dashti
From the websites you have given me, I will assume that you are a non-muslim under a Muslim name, which is extremely low. "

Why? I have told people before here that yes, I am in fact an European non-Muslim, but I am also a fervent supporter of the FAST-GROWING movement of ex-Mulims. Ali Dashti was an Iranian ex-Muslim who ripped the Koran to pieces in his great book "23 years". He was of course tortured for writing it by Khomeini's regime, even though he was in his 80s. He died in prison. I hold him in high esteem. Don't see anything "low" in that.

Dina; I don't know the other two Muslim converts you'd mentioned (are we to be impressed?), but Cat Stevens, yes...what's happened to him? Is this what conversion to Islam means -- no longer practicing a God-given talent (music!) that its sinful?
"15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Matthew 7:15-20
No surprises here.

Decency:

“Fortunately, that day is coming REAl SOON for oh, about a BILLION Muslims.”
Seems to me as if you guys are the terrorists.

Curious:

“Does this mean that it is allowed to fight those who refuse to apply sharia in Sweden for example?”
I will repeat myself. We are being told to fight against those who REFUSE TO LET US PRACTICE OUR RELGION! I hope that clears it up.
“Am I an enemy for being for western democracy and human rights?”
Did anyone say you were?
“Am I an enemy that should be fought with weapons because I think and say that Mohammed was one of the more evil founders of religions?”
Then what do you call yourself? An Islamic lover? Yes, you should be fought with, but not with weapons. Maybe you would like to do that, maybe that is in your nature, but you should be fought with words, as long as you do not pass laws that do not let us practice our religion that way it should be.
“You people can believe a lot of things if you like but I will hold on to my secular/rationalist/social democratic views and change then when I choose freely to do so.”
Go ahead, as long as you don’t spread lies about our religion, and prohibit the practice of our religion, the true Muslims are perfectly fine with that.

Susan:
“You haven't answered my question Dina -- when did Muslims ever give Christians refuge from persecution and/or war?”
Don’t say I haven’t. Because I just did, and its not my problem that you refuse to accept it.
“Cat Stevens also supported the death fatwa on Salman Rushdie. He said that if he saw Rushdie in his neighborhood he'd call up some Muslim friends of his he knew who wanted to kill Rushdie and tell them to come over and get them.”
People like Salman Rushdie don’t deserve to live. All that crap hes spreading about Islam. And so what if he supported the death fatwa? If you must know, you country gives the death penalty to an American traitor. This is the same as us giving the death penalty to traitors, who convert out of Islam, and then spread lies about it. However, this is not the case. That person is said to be given three days, in which scholars sit around him, and clarify his doubts. If he still refuses to convert back to Islam after those three days, then he is to be locked in prison forever. This is far better than the punishment YOUR COUNTRY GIVES TO TRAITORS.
“Cat Stevens also supports sharia in Britain.”
Yes, your point?

Smitty:
“What an amazing statement! So not only are we non-Muslims to be treated as second class citizens on Earth, we can't even gain Paradise! Are you presuming to speak for Allah?”
I am extremely sorry Smitty. I told you before, the truth hurts. Because once you study Islam from the Quran, you will realize that any other religion besides it should not exist. Christianity is full of so many flaws, I don’t know how people can ignore them and still follow it. I spread the word of God to others, and what Allah (SWT) says in the Quran, and orders for us Muslims to do.
Salam,
Dina

Dina

I'm glad you don't wish to impose sharia law on the US. Unfortunately, CAIR have stated that they do wish to impose sharia law on the US, and they wield rather more influence than you in the muslim community. So are you calling the leaders of CAIR 'nominal followers' and 'stereotypes'?

"People like Salman Rushdie don’t deserve to live."

I think that tells us all we need to know about Dina.

Christine:
“Dina, I know that Muslim men get 72 virgins when they get to paradise, but what do the women get? 72 piles of laundry? And by the way, thanks SO much for trying to whitewash a religion where it's permissible to beat women, you're doing a really GREAT job, sister.”

Who said they get 72 piles of laundry? For the beating of a women, this is as an extremely last resort. When? When they refuse to follow Islam, and its rules and regulations. When they insist on going out with some other guy, or when they refuse to dress modestly. Then, they are to be disciplined. The way you say beat, its as if the husband slaps her across the face till she bleeds. No, they cannot be beaten this way. You cannot hit them where it leaves a mark on their face or anywhere on their body. They are required to discipline them with a small stick, a miswack. However, this is as an extremely last resort. And I am sure, Insha Allah, that none of the women behave in a way that is identical to a slut or prostitute.

Ali Dashti
“Ali Dashti was an Iranian ex-Muslim who ripped the Koran to pieces in his great book "23 years".
Good for him, May Allah forgive him for performing such an act.
Good for him, May Allah forgive him for performing such an act. Yes, that is extremely low. How would you like it if I ripped your Bible in front of your face?

daughter of patriots
“Dina; I don't know the other two Muslim converts you'd mentioned (are we to be impressed?), but Cat Stevens, yes...what's happened to him? Is this what conversion to Islam means -- no longer practicing a God-given talent (music!) that its sinful”
How do you know he doesn’t? His islamic Music is one of the most listened halal music. So go and learn more about him before posting things up. And those other two, actually it was one, Yusuf Estes. He was a PRIEST in CHRISTIANITY. He converted to Islam. Pretty amazing isnt it? And the other one, Paul Findley, who was a member of the congress for 22 years. I don’t even know whether he is Muslim, and I couldn’t care less. All I advise you to do is to read his book, SILENT NO MORE. It is an excellent book.

Salams,
Dina

Dina,

"...once you study Islam from the Quran, you will realize that other religion besides it should not exist."

You have the certainty of a true fanatic or an imbecile. Your words are full of scorn and hatred toward others and I find them repulsive. You try to sound so nice and reasonable but your religion is full of murder and destruction. You seem to be an educated person, yet you are truly ignorant.

By the way, I have read the Quran and I reject it. See you in Hell.

As an example ex-princess Diana of england was going to marry an egyptian Muslim Brother so she can embrace Holy Islam but they were ASSASSINED in their cold blood with the evil hope that the murderers can stop the will of Almighty Allah (swt).

Every decent westerner with a peacefull sense and away from anti-muslim propaganda who came to embrace Holy Islam and live with the rest of the Brothers and Sisters, is under repression of brutalic regimes of west with the mask of democracy and freedom. Stop your agression and learn about true Islam so we can all live in peace together.

Dina:

I'm sorry to hear about the story of the 5 year old boy, if this happended as you described. Do you know where I can find addition details?

Dina: "Christianity, for example, allows you to do whatever you want, eat whatever you want, drink whatever you want, or wear whatever you want, as long as you accept the blood of Jesus to cleanse your sins."

Jews followed 613 rules in the Old Covenant, when Jesus shed his blood (New Covenant) for us (John 3:16)believers were not to remain the same but be transformed with God's laws written in their hearts "be holy as I am holy".

The apostle Paul in a heated discussion in a council meeting in Jerusalem with fellow believers in Jesus said: 19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." -Acts 15:19-20.

In those days it was the Gentile who was the unusual comer to Christ, in a culture of mostly Jewish, Christ followers. Some insisted that Gentiles must be circumcised (like them) to become believers in Jesus. Paul said if that is true than all the 613 other old laws are still valid as well.

1st century Gentiles & Jews were living in a mostly pagan culture, which included frenzied ceremonies ending in sexual consummation and the biting into living animals. Which is why we see these common sense "rules", besides the one Jesus considered the most important "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

Could someone enlighten me as to what exactly the "satanic verses" were?

Dina - You are compelled to fight against those that won't allow you to "practice your religion." Hmm. What kind of religion is it that allows fighting. Surely that can't be a tenet of a peaceful religion!

Does your religion require that the rest of us cave in to your religion? Is that how you "practice your religion?" Does your religion require that the rest of us give you special privileges that aren't afforded to other citizens? Is that how "you practice your religion?" Does your religion make you above the laws of the country in which you reside? Is that how you "practice your religion?"

Does your religion make you stick out like a sore thumb in the manner of your dress, your dietary habits, your social behavior, etc., forbidding you to assimilate into the culture of your new host country?

Does your religion require you to be arrogant and obnoxious to non-Muslims, using taqiyya and kitman? Is this a good example of your religion? Why would anyone want to associate themselves with an obnoxious boor that lies to them?

We can and do read the Koran and the Hadiths for ourselves and we don't like what we have learned, and simply put, we don't want our country to become Islamized.

Ban the Trash:
"People like Salman Rushdie don’t deserve to live."
I think that tells us all we need to know about Dina.
Don’t speak for others. And puh-lease. America does this to their traitors also, so do not tell me you have got a problem with what our Sharia says. In addition, our Sharia gives a second chance to those apostates.

Infidel23

“I'm glad you don't wish to impose sharia law on the US. Unfortunately, CAIR have stated that they do wish to impose sharia law on the US, and they wield rather more influence than you in the muslim community. So are you calling the leaders of CAIR 'nominal followers' and 'stereotypes'?”
First of all, I am not a scholar in Islam, so I cannot say whether Islam urges Muslims to force the Sharia on other countries. And, secondly, before CAIR goes out and even tries imposing the Sharia, I think they should first go and do this to the so-called Muslim states. Our Muslim community has a lot to learn, and I am not saying we are perfect. We are low in Iman, and we have to pull ourselves together, and wake up. And Insha Allah you guys will realize the truth.

Salams Dina

Dina,

Since in America we believe in the separation of church and state, I don't think it's equivelent to compare Salman Rushdie's leaving Islam to how the US would view a national traitor. We do not prosecute people for leaving Christianity or any other religion.

Ultach- "The Satanic Verses" was a novel written by the Indian novelist Salman Rushdie in which he criticized Islam. He made reference to certain verses in the Koran which the Prophet later repudiated, saying that they must have come from Satan. For his criticism, Rushdie had a death sentence put on his head by one of those mafia-style clerics that arrange hits on those that they feel "offend" Islam. That's how Islam deals with criticism: they kill the critics.

Dina's pretty funny. Ask her a simple question in one's quest for knowledge and you get diatribe.

At least I was proved right- she Did read a lot into it. A lot of Hooey.
And the question was never answered. I'm sure I will find the answer on my own... no muslim posting here is capable of it.

Happy Memorial Day, everyone!

~Your grandchildren will go on Hajj in Porky Pig costumes.

Dina: Ali Dashti ripped the Koran into pieces WITH HIS LOGIC, not physically. Which isn't that difficult, really, but his "23 years" does it in a very elegant way.

http://www.mazdapub.com/Twenty-Three-Years.htm

This study of Mohammad’s prophetic career by a modern Iranian thinker will be of great value to everyone interested in Islam and the Moslem people. Through the use of the early sources together with psychological and sociological analysis, Ali Dashti brings out the reality of Mohammad’s greatness, dispels the fog of superstition which has been built up around him, and discusses problems which are too often left unmentioned.
Dashti will long be remembered for his penetrating studies of Persian classics. In books on Omar Khayyam, Khaqani, Mowlavi Rumi, Sa‘di, Hafez, and Sa’eb, he picks out the elements in the works of these classical poets which have enduring value. The studies of religious matters which he wrote in his later years show the same perspective; chief among these is Twenty-Three Years. After the revolution of 1979, he was imprisoned and beaten, suffering serious injury. He died in late 1981 or early 1982.

kill christians, jews, budhists, hindus and other "pagans" - funny how the above religions are the ones which teach and practice peace and love and the one that only claims it doesnt ?
listen, its over, they are rotting from within, they have tarnished their relgion, people ythink of death and slaughter when they hear islam, its over, we dont have to do a think just keep marching forward and advancing into the new century, time and modernity is their enemy and guess what you cant fight time and progress, its over...and when the oil runs out in next 20-40 years they will have nothing to fall back on they will be victims of there own backwardness, they have contributed nothing and have nothing else to sell no knowledge no technology no medicine, they have done this unto themsleves..we are moving so fast forward that oil will be a thing of the last century very soon..we dont have to fight any war just ignore them and they will wither without our help its over

Dina: Ali Dashti ripped the Koran into pieces WITH HIS LOGIC, not physically. Which isn't that difficult, really, but his "23 years" does it in a very elegant way.

http://www.mazdapub.com/Twenty-Three-Years.htm

This study of Mohammad’s prophetic career by a modern Iranian thinker will be of great value to everyone interested in Islam and the Moslem people. Through the use of the early sources together with psychological and sociological analysis, Ali Dashti brings out the reality of Mohammad’s greatness, dispels the fog of superstition which has been built up around him, and discusses problems which are too often left unmentioned.
Dashti will long be remembered for his penetrating studies of Persian classics. In books on Omar Khayyam, Khaqani, Mowlavi Rumi, Sa‘di, Hafez, and Sa’eb, he picks out the elements in the works of these classical poets which have enduring value. The studies of religious matters which he wrote in his later years show the same perspective; chief among these is Twenty-Three Years. After the revolution of 1979, he was imprisoned and beaten, suffering serious injury. He died in late 1981 or early 1982.

Just a quick reference on this beating your wife stuff. Dina is giving you the standard BS. Here is the real deal, straight from the pages of the Umdat al-Salik, the Reliance of the Traveller, a classic version of the Islamic Sacred Law:

p. 540, m10.12

DEALING WITH A REBELLIOUS WIFE

m10.12 When a husband notices signs of rebelliousness in his wife (nushuz, dis: p42) (O: whether in words, as when she answers him coldly when she used to do so politely, or he asks her to come to bed and she refuses, contrary to her usual habit; or whether in acts, as when he finds her averse to him when she was previously kind and cheerful), he warns her in words (O: without keeping from her or hitting her, for it may be that she has an excuse. The warning could be to tell her, “Fear Allah concerning the rights you owe to me,” or it could be to explain that rebelliousness nullifies his obligation to support her and give her a turn amongst other wives, or it could be to inform her, “Your obeying me [def: (3) below] is religiously obligatory”). If she commits rebelliousness, he keeps from sleeping (O: and having sex) with her without words, and may hit her, but not in a way that injures her, meaning he may not (A: bruise her,), break bones, wound her, or cause blood to flow. (O: It is unlawful to strike another’s face.) He may hit her whether she is rebellious only once or whether more than once, though a weaker opinion holds that he may not hit her unless there is repeated rebelliousness.

This beating your wife with a toothbrush stuff, I don't know where that nonsense comes from. It certainly doesn't come from the Qur'an:

"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is high, supreme." 4:34

Here is Daniel Pipes on the Satanic Verses issue:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/186

From www.danielpipes.org | Original article available at: www.danielpipes.org/article/186

The Ayatollah, the Novelist, and the West
by Daniel Pipes
Commentary
June 1989

[N.B.: The following text reflects what the author submitted, and not exactly what was published. To obtain what precisely what was printed, please check the original place of publication.]

In the span of a decade, the Ayatollah Khomeini has twice challenged Western civilization's deepest norms. By permitting a seizure of the American embassy, in November 1979, he violated the most hallowed laws of Western diplomacy. In February 1989, he struck again, by calling for the murder of British novelist Salman Rushdie, and of his publishers.

So far as an outsider can tell, Khomeini issued his recent edict to resist what he sees as a threatening, secular West. The chief irony of the affair, therefore, was that Khomeini succeeded in demonstrating how few in the West are prepared to stand up for its values-and least of all his chief intended victim, Salman Rushdie.

I

Salman Rushdie was born in 1947 in Bombay, India. He attended school at Rugby, followed by King's College at Cambridge University, from which he graduated in 1968. After spending two years in Pakistan, he returned to Britain, where he has lived ever since, becoming a British subject by marriage. For several years, Rushdie served as an editor in a public relations firm; then, in 1976, he published his first novel, Grimus, a work of science-fiction. A second book, Midnight's Children, came out in 1979, won the Booker prize in 1981, and sold an impressive half-million copies. A 1981 novel, Shame, which dealt with Pakistan, also won high critical acclaim.

The Iranian press has called Rushdie "a self-confessed apostate," but he is better described as a lapsed Muslim, and he makes no bones about it: "I do not believe in supernatural entities," he has said, "whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu." Though Rushdie is hardly alone in his views, what he stands for perturbs many Muslims. They take particular offense because he has renounced his ancestral country, language, and the Muslim way of life, adopting instead England, English, and secularism.

But though Rushdie has adopted England as his home, he has hardly taken it to his bosom. The immigration officials who arrest one of his characters behave like the goons of a police state, "thumping and gouging various parts of his anatomy" in such a way that the bruises will not show. As Cheryl Benard of the Baltzman Institute in Vienna concludes, it is not Muslims who come off worst in Rushdie's vision. "It is Britons more than Moslems who might have cause to find the book 'blasphemous.' If Islam is portrayed as somewhat rigid and medieval, then the contemporary West, in his pages, is a nightmare out of 'Blade Runner.'" New York City he calls "that transatlantic New Rome with its Nazified architectural gigantism, which employed the oppressions of size to make its human occupants feel like worms." In the cruder terms of one of his characters, the West comprises "the motherfucking Americans" and "the sisterfucking British."

II

Nevertheless, it must be admitted, The Satanic Verses is an elusive and sophisticated tale, written by an accomplished novelist. Unfortunately, to assess the offensiveness of the book in Muslim eyes, the novel must be looked in a literal and anti-literary way, for this is the way it is understood by those who protest it. Specifically, one must take every statement in the book as representative of the author's own thinking, even though this is clearly not always the case.

The Satanic Verses is not easy to summarize. It contains three stories which at first glance may appear unrelated. The first story (taking up chapters 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9) concerns two Indians (Gibreel Farishta and Saladin Chamcha) who fall out of a jumbo jet and miraculously survive. Their adventures in England, their fantasy worlds, and their eventual return to Bombay makes up the novel's central plot.

The second story (in chapters 2 and 6) is a dream about aspects of the story of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. It relies partly on historical fact, partly on the novelist's imagination. The third story (in chapters 4 and 8) concerns a Muslim village in India whose whole population follows a holy woman into the Arabian Sea, expecting the waters will part for them to walk to Mecca. But the waters remain unparted, and virtually the whole village perishes. Juxtaposed as it is with a description of Khomeini's exile in Paris, Rushdie clearly intends this to be seen as an allegory for Iran and the Islamic revolution.

The dream about Muhammad is the source of the controversy. It makes up two chapters of the book, "Mahound" and "Return to Jahilia." (Mahound is an archaic European name for the Prophet Muhammad; Jahilia is Rushdie's name for Mecca.) From the Islamic point of view, the most offensive passages are those referred to in the book's title, those having to do with the Satanic verses, a little-known but genuine issue in the history of Islam.

Before looking at the Satanic Verses episode, however, an important point needs to be established about the Islamic faith, namely, that its irreducible core lies in acceptance of the Qur'an as the Word of God. At the very least, to be a Muslim means accepting on faith that God (or Allah, the same thing) sent His message to mankind via the angel Gabriel who passed it along to Muhammad; and that the Qur'an is inerrant. To doubt that the Qur'an is the exact message of God is to deny the validity of Muhammad's message and to imply that the entire Islamic faith is fraudulent at base. Therefore, such doubt is usually seen as an act of apostasy.

The Satanic verses episode concerns the fact that Muhammad was born and lived in Mecca, long a major center of the polytheistic Arabian religions. Indeed, the town's prosperity depended heavily on its role as a religious center, and the leaders of Muhammad's own tribe, Quraysh, depended especially on those shrines.

The emphatic monotheism of Muhammad's message therefore posed a direct challenge to the existing order in general and to the leaders of Quraysh in particular. For this reason, Muhammad's initial teachings met with a poor response among the well-to-do in Mecca. The new faith did succeed in winning slaves, servants, non-tribal persons, and other riff-raff, but it made little progress among the burghers. Winning these over became a major concern of Muhammad's. It is in this context that the Satanic verses episode took place, in about 614 c.e., or one year after Muhammad began his career of public preaching. At-Tabari (d. 923), a historian and commentator on the Qur'an who provides much of our historical knowledge about Muhammad's life, transmits the account as follows:

Members of Quraysh suggested to Muhammad that he adopt a flexible attitude toward their idols, and they in return would adopt a more friendly attitude toward his preaching. "If you make some mention of our goddesses, we would sit beside you [i.e., become Muslims]." Soon after this offer, Muhammad recited the following verse of the Qur'an, which made reference to three of the most prominent Meccan goddesses:

Have you thought upon Lat and Uzza,
And Manat, the third, the other?
At this point, according to the account in Tabari, Satan distorted the next words so that Muhammad accepted these three goddesses and confirmed the validity of their intercession between man and God:
These are the exalted birds,
And their intercession is desired indeed.
Naturally, Quraysh was delighted by Muhammad's acceptance of the three goddesses. It meant that Islam was neither as monotheistic nor as radical as it had first appeared. The traditional religions would live on, at least in an attenuated form; the shrines of Mecca would retain their economic value.

But then the angel Gabriel (the normal source of the Qur'an) came to Muhammad and revealed to him that the devil had deceived him into uttering the last two lines. To be precise, in Tabari's account, Gabriel revealed that "Satan caused to come upon his tongue" the verse about "the exalted birds." Gabriel abrogated these lines and replaced them with verses denouncing the cult of the three goddesses. The complete Qur'anic text on this issue reads as follows:
Have you thought upon Lat and Uzza,
And Manat, the third, the other?
Shall He have daughters and you sons?
That would be a fine division!
These are but [three] names you have dreamed of, you and your fathers.
Allah vests no authority in them
Even though guidance had come to them already from their Lord.
What had happened? Had Satan leaped on Muhammad's tongue? Or had the Prophet tried to ingratiate himself with the city leaders, then regretted the effort and recanted? Or, worse, had he tried to win their favor, been rebuffed, and changed the text accordingly?

Obviously, this incident is one of the most delicate in Muhammad's mission. Here is the way that W. Montgomery Watt, the leading modern biographer of Muhammad, steers a neutral course in his summary of the incident:
Muhammad must have had sufficient success for the heads of Quraysh to take him seriously. Pressure was brought to bear on him to make some acknowledgement of the worship at the neighbouring shrines. He was at first inclined to do so, both in view of the material advantages such a course offered and because it looked as if it would speedily result in a successful end of his mission. Eventually, however, through Divine guidance as he believed, he saw that this would be a fatal compromise, and he gave up the prospect of improving his outward circumstances in order to follow the truth as he saw it.
The phrase "as he believed" is Watt's way to avoid judging the issue. In other words, this is the territory of faith where the historian dares not tread. But the novelist does. Rushdie is a skeptic, and he treats the incident as one of deceit.

III

In Rushdie's novel, the prophet spoke the false verses not because Satan put them in his mouth, but because he saw an opportunity to advance his cause. Later, Mahound "returns to the city as quickly as he can, to expunge the foul verses that reek of brimstone and sulphur, to strike them from the record for ever and ever." To cover his deception, Mahound adopts the notion, put forward by one of his followers, that the devil made him do it.

But Rushdie's offense in this section goes beyond the charge that Muhammad weaved and bobbed as his interests changed; the real problem lies in the implication that the entire Qur'an derived not from God through Gabriel, but from Muhammad himself, who put the words in Gabriel's mouth.
Gibreel [Gabriel], hovering-watching from his highest camera angle, knows one small detail, just one tiny thing that's a bit of a problem here, namely that it was me both times, baba, me first and second also me. From my mouth, both the statement and the repudiation, verses and converses, universes and reverses, the whole thing, and we all know how my mouth got worked.
This last point ("and we all know how my mouth got worked") refers to Gibreel's being forced to say what he does by Mahound. If this is true, then the Qur'an is a human artifact and the Islamic faith is built on a deceit. There is nothing left.

But is that what Rushdie has implied? The whole sequence, after all, is part of a dream; and the dreamer, Gibreel Farishta, is a man whose name means "Gabriel Angel" and who suffers from "paranoid delusions" of being the Archangel Gibreel. Surely this places the author at considerable distance from the story he tells. Further, other Muslims have written on Muhammad and the Qur'an in ways objectively more offensive to Islam than Rushdie, and they have been attacked far less. For example, 'Ali Dashti, an Iranian whose works were freely available after the Iranian revolution, wrote an analysis of Muhammad's mission which included such statements as: "The Lord who made observance of ancient Arab lunar time-reckoning compulsory everywhere and for ever must have been either a local Arabian god or the Prophet Muhammad."

It is no wonder that Rushdie got negative reviews from Muslims, but why did Rushdie and his book so provoke the Muslims of England and South Africa, the Saudi authorities, mobs in Pakistan, and the Ayatollah Khomeini? Something about this book-other than its contents-had to arouse their ire.

The clue may lie in the fact that almost no one who protested the book had even read excerpts of it, much less the entire novel. That they could get so excited about a book that they had not read indicates that the source of their anger lay in what they did know. And what did they know? That an author named Salman Rushdie, living in Great Britain, wrote a book called The Satanic Verses. In short, they were aware of little beyond the title.

But the book's title has an impact when translated into Arabic that it does not have in English. Here is Rushdie's understanding on the matter:
Even the novel's title has been termed blasphemous; but the phrase is not mine. It comes from al-Tabari, one of the canonic Islamic sources. Tabari writes... [that] Muhammad then received verses which accepted the three favorite Meccan goddesses as intercessionary agents. Meccans were delighted. Later, the Archangel Gabriel told Muhammad that these had been "Satanic verses," falsely inspired by the Devil in disguise and they were removed from the Koran.
Rushdie's account is generally correct-but he makes one mistake. The exact term "Satanic verses" is not found in Tabari. Tabari says: "Satan threw [something] into his formulation, and these verses were revealed." Admittedly, this is close in spirit to "Satanic verses," but it is not the same. The term "Satanic verses" is an English one, devised by orientalists. When rendered into Arabic, the phrase becomes Al-Ayat ash-Shaytaniya, using a word for "verses" (ayat) which refers specifically to the verses of the Qur'an. Back-translated to English, therefore, the Arabic title would be "The Qur'an's Satanic Verses." And, with just a touch of imagination, that is easily rendered as "The Qur'anic Verses Were Written By Satan," or even, "The Qur'an Was Written By Satan" In other words, the book's title is not being taken (as it should be) to refer to a bit of Islamic arcana concerning phrases omitted from the Qur'an. It is being read to assert that the Qur'an itself was the work of the devil.

Herein lies the most probable direct cause of the furor. By hearing the title in this way, Muslims found it unimaginably offensive.

IV

The uproar over The Satanic Verses began within days of the book's official publication in Britain, on September 26, 1988.

Indian Muslims learned about the book in mid-September from India Today, a bi-weekly magazine, which reviewed it, excerpted it, and interviewed the author. Presciently, the reviewer concluded that "The Satanic Verses is bound to trigger an avalanche of protests from the ramparts." And, indeed, Syed Shahbuddin, a member of the Indian parliament, not liking what he read in India Today, began a campaign to have the novel banned. He met with quick success, as the Finance Ministry prohibited the book on October fifth.

Meanwhile, Muslims in Britain heard from India about the book and began to agitate against its distribution. At first they tried having it banned, without success; then they tried protest and international pressure. The initial burning of The Satanic Verses took place in Bolton (near Manchester) on December 2, in a ceremony that attracted a crowd of 7,000 Muslims but scant press attention. Another effort was made on January 14, in the heavily Muslim town of Bradford, the so-called capital of Islam in the United Kingdom. The Bradford effort succeeded, as television news showed the auto-da-fé-the novel attached to a stake and set on fire-in loving, if horrified, detail.

In reply, Rushdie published a statement that called the Prophet Muhammad "one of the great geniuses of world history," but noted that Islamic doctrine holds Muhammad to be human, and in no way perfect. He held that the novel is not "an antireligious novel. It is, however, an attempt to write about migration, its stresses and transformations."

British Muslims also alerted the London embassies of Muslim states about the book and its contents. But weeks passed and the states barely responded. The only disturbances were in South Africa, where local Muslims demonstrated against Rushdie's attendance at an anti-apartheid conference, forcing him to cancel.

All of this proved merely a warm-up for the round of violence that began in Islamabad, Pakistan, on February 12 and continued for a month. The events that day are clear, though their causes remain disputed. A crowd of some 10,000, took to the streets and marched to the American Cultural Center, where they shouted "American dogs" and "God is great" and set fires to the building. Five demonstrators died at the hands of the police as the crowd surged toward the building, and about a hundred were injured. A Pakistani guard at the American Center was shot by someone in the mob, making him the sixth casualty of the day. The next day, a rioter lost his life in Kashmir, India.

The odd thing about these riots was that British property was not attacked, although the novel had been out for months in the United Kingdom, and Rushdie was living in London. This may have had to do with the forthcoming U.S. publication of The Satanic Verses, scheduled for February 22. Or the violence may have been directed toward those in the opposition who wanted to exploit the opportunity to attack Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto-and the United States makes a better symbol of protest than Great Britain. Indeed, this is the way the prime minister interpreted the riots. Similarly, Rushdie accused the leaders of the demonstration of exploiting religious slogans for political ends.

V

In any event, The Satanic Verses had caused, or excused, substantial disturbances among Muslims in several parts of the world by the middle of February. The disturbances and loss of life had attracted great attention, but there was no real political issue for the West to face. It took the Ayatollah Khomeini, a man who does not play by the usual rules, to mount that challenge.

Accounts differ as to how Khomeini learned about Rushdie and The Satanic Verses. One report says he was watching the news on Iranian television, saw the rioting in Pakistan, and was much affected by the scene. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a sight that would call on Khomeini's sense of Muslim solidarity more than Muslims crying out "God is great" and then proceeding to die outside an American Cultural Center. A second account has him hearing about the rioting in Pakistan from a small transistor radio he takes with him on his constitutionals. The final version has him "shaken utterly" upon reading excerpts of The Satanic Verses (presumably in Persian or Arabic translation, as Khomeini knows no English); the name Mahound is said to have been especially enraging to him.

However it happened, on February 14, Khomeini took the single most important step of the entire incident when, in an address to the "world's Muslim community," he pronounced an Islamic legal judgment (a fatwa, comparable to a Jewish responsa). Declaring The Satanic Verses in opposition to Islam, he pronounced a sentence of death on both Rushdie and his publishers.
The author of The Satanic Verses book, which is against Islam, the Prophet, and the Qur'an, and all those involved in its publication who were aware of its content, are sentenced to death. I ask all Muslims to execute them wherever they find them.
Khomeini called on Muslims to act quickly against Rushdie and promised martyrdom to whoever carried out the sentence. The president of Iran, Seyyed 'Ali Khamene'i, characterized Khomeini's statement as "an irrevocable dictum."

To make the task more attractive, the head of an Iranian charity organization, the 15th Khorbad [5th of June] Relief Agency, offered $1 million to a non-Iranian assassin and 200 million rials (almost $3 million at the inflated rate of exchange, but just $170,000 on the parallel market), to an Iranian. The next day, the religious leader of Rafsanjan (hometown of 'Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, speaker of the Iranian parliament) offered another 200 million rials, as did a mullah in Kerman.

Members of the Iranian parliament expressed their support for Khomeini and their "divine anger" at Rushdie. The Iranian ambassador to the Holy See announced that he would "kill Salman Rushdie with his own hands" if he could. The Islamic Revolution News Agency representative in Spain promised likewise (and found himself instantly expelled from the country).

More important, a number of groups sponsored by the Iranian government declared their determination to get Rushdie. Mohsen Reza'i, leader of the Islamic Revolution's Guard Corps announced the readiness of his forces "to carry out the imam's decree." Interior Minister 'Ali Akbar Mohtashemi called on Hizbullah to carry out the execution and the leaders of the Lebanese Hizbullah quickly promised to do "all that's possible to have the honor" of carrying out Khomeini's sentence. Other Lebanese groups, including Amal, the Islamic Unification Movement, the Jihad Organization for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Islamic Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine all promised likewise. In addition, Ahmad Jibril's Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command announced its intention to join the effort. The Revolutionary Justice Organization, went further than the others and vowed to attack the British police, if necessary, on the way to an assault on Rushdie. Something of a rivalry developed between these groups: Who would get to Rushdie first?

On the 17th, however, President Khamene'i announced that "the people might forgive him," if Rushdie repented. Accordingly, the next day, Rushdie did offer an apology, though a minimal one.
As author of The Satanic Verses, I recognize that Muslims in many parts of the world are genuinely distressed by the publication of my novel. I profoundly regret the distress that the publication had occasioned to sincere followers of Islam. Living as we do in a world of many faiths, this experience has served to remind us that we must all be conscious of the sensibilities of others.
The apology concerned the effects of his writings, not the writings themselves, and so did not mollify his critics.

Still, confusion in Iran followed, as a news agency report suggested that the apology, "though far too short of a repentance, is generally seen as sufficient enough to warrant his pardon by the masses in Iran and elsewhere in the world." Then the ayatollah weighed in, on February 19, with an absolute rejection of Rushdie's statement, and, indeed, of any act of contrition on his part. Khomeini denied foreign reports that repentance would lift the "execution order" against Rushdie.
Even if Salman Rushdie repents and becomes the most pious man of [our] time, it is incumbent on every Muslim to employ everything he has, his life and his wealth, to send him to hell.... If a non-Muslim becomes aware of his whereabouts and has the ability to execute him quicker than Muslims, it is incumbent on Muslims to pay a reward or a fee in return for this action.
VI

Why did Ayatollah Khomeini turn The Satanic Verses into an international incident? Curiously, critics and supporters of the ayatollah have almost diametrically opposed explanations.

Critics are nearly unanimous in seeing his act in political terms. Former Iranian President Abolhassan Bani-Sadr saw the event as "a political affair and not a religious one," and the leader of the main Iranian opposition group, Mas'ud Rajavi of the Mujahidin-e Khalq agreed.

Some emphasized domestic political tensions in Iran. Amir Taheri saw The Satanic Verses as "an issue likely to stir the imagination of the poor and illiterate masses" in Iran. Harvey Morris saw it as a "revolutionary coup de théâtre" intended to replace the Iraq-Iran war as a focus of national unity. Others saw it mostly in terms of foreign policy. Youssef M. Ibrahim explained it as Khomeini's bid "to reassert his role as spokesman and protector of Islamic causes." William Waldegrave of the British Foreign Office blamed the incident on "radical elements in Iran, which do not want their country to have normal relations with the West and the Gulf states."

Supporters of the ayatollah, on the other hand, see his move very differently, primarily as a religious response. The top Iranian diplomat in Cyprus told a local audience that "the verdict issued by the Iranian leader is a purely religious one and based on the religious considerations." The chargé d'affaires in London stated unequivocally that Khomeini saw the punishment of Rushdie as "much more important than relations between two countries."

Which side is correct? Prima facie, there is strong evidence to accept the religious interpretation. First, there is the emotional side-a blasphemous parody of the Prophet, the evident courage of Muslims in England, the martyrdom of Muslims in Pakistan. In combination, these are likely to have exerted a powerful effect on the aged Iranian leader. Second, the Muslims in India, Great Britain, and Pakistan who took to the streets before Khomeini spoke showed the depths of Muslim outrage. They had no connection to the struggles of Iranian political life.

Third, there are much more direct ways for Khomeini, the autocratic leader of Iran, to shut down relations with the West. He rules without rival; had he decided to stop the improving ties, he could simply have decreed so. A politician in his position of authority need not take so unusual a step as placing a bounty on a novelist's head.

Fourth, there is a persistent tendency not to take Khomeini's assertions at face value. This happened in 1978, as Iranians and others tried to foresee what kind of government he would impose in Iran. The evidence was all there, in the form of his writings over many years, but these tended to be ignored in favor of a more conventional interpretation of his goals. The insistence on a political explanation for the Rushdie fatwa risks falling into this same trap.

Finally, the attack on Rushdie is consistent with other actions by the ayatollah, two of which deserve mention. He took nearly the same step 47 years earlier, when he was yet an obscure mullah. In 1942 he wrote The Discovery of Secrets, a polemic directed against Ahmad Kasravi, a prominent writer whose anti-clerical views had gained a significant following in Iran. Khomeini pronounced Kasravi mahdurr ad-damm (forfeit blood), thus permitting a Muslim to execute him. His book was read by Mohammed Nawab-Safavi, who went on to found a terrorist group, the Fedayin-e Islam, and this group made Kasravi its first target. Inspired by the Khomeini tract, Sayyed Husayn Emami and three others attacked Kasravi with knives, murdering him. Though Khomeini's response to the execution is not on record, his close friend, Sheikh Sadeq Khalkhali called day on which it took place "the most beautiful day in my life."

Much more recently, Khomeini inflicted severe punishments on the producers of a Tehran Radio program called "Model for the Muslim Woman" for airing on January 28, 1989 what he called "an un-Islamic interview." A woman on the program had explained that she did not consider the daughter of the Prophet Muhammad, Fatima, to be a suitable model for herself; she preferred a more up-to-date exemplar-the heroine of a Japanese soap opera. Outraged, the ayatollah sent a letter to the director of Iranian broadcasting, telling him that if the insult was deliberate, the offending parties will "undoubtedly" be condemned to death. Three days later, the court sentenced one of the producers to five years in jail, two others to four years each and 50 lashes. And the court made clear that this relative leniency was due to an "absence of malicious intent" on their part; otherwise, all of them would have been sentenced to death.

Those (such as George Black) who argue that Khomeini "has used Rushdie as a target of convenience," are wrong. The answer is very clear (in the words of The New Republic): "The Ayatollah does not want to use Rushdie; he wants to kill him. We must respect the man's sincerity."

VII

Nevertheless, a question remains about the ayatollah's motivation: why did he make The Satanic Verses a centerpiece of Iran's post-war diplomacy? Granted the offensiveness of the (literally interpreted) text, the offensiveness of the (misunderstood) title, and Khomeini's religious extremism, it is still not clear why this book should be made the Iranian government's top priority. The answer lies in the strange vision of history held by Khomeini and other fundamentalist Muslims.

Their view is based on a syllogism: Muslims were once strong, but are now weak. When Muslims were strong, they lived fully by the precepts of their faith, but now they do not. Therefore, Muslims are weak because they do not live up to the requirements of Islam. Were they to do so, they would regain the strength of centuries past. Khomeini's first goal, then, is to get Muslims to live fully by the law of Islam, the Shari'a. The just society, one where Muslims live in strict adherence to the Qur'an and the laws of Islam, is also the one which allows Muslims to achieve their natural strength.

But there is one great obstacle to achieving this: the seductive culture of the West, which has been drawing Muslims away from the exact adherence to their faith for two centuries. Therefore, Muslims must engage in a battle against Western civilization. And a battle this is, for the West is not a passive purveyor of culture, but actively thrusts it on vulnerable Muslims. The West does so because it benefits by weakening Muslims; this allows it to plunder Muslim lands and hire the believers as cheap labor. 'Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, speaker of the Iranian parliament, explained the deep historical roots of the effort:
From the day the Western colonialists harbored the intention of colonising the Islamic countries-or to be more precise, to demolish and create havoc in the Islamic world-they sensed that they must deal with something called Islam. They realized that as long as Islam is in force, their path will be a difficult one, or may be virtually closed off.

Whoever is familiar with the history of colonialism and the Islamic world knows that whenever they wanted to get a foothold in a place, the first thing they did in order to clear their paths-whether overtly or covertly-was to undermine the people's genuine Islamic morals.
Of course, the imperialists could not entirely do away with Islam, so they did the next best thing, which was to emasculate the religion, reducing the faith to empty ceremonies devoid of real content. By 1978, ceremonial Islam (or "American-style Islam") prevailed at the state level everywhere in the world. But then, Rafsanjani continues, "with the advent of the Islamic Revolution, pure Islam entered the scene, and all they had done became undone." The Iranians threatened to lead all Muslims (and other oppressed peoples) against the hegemony of the great powers, the United States and the U.S.S.R. especially.

Seeing the danger Iran posed, the powers fought back. The White House and Kremlin feared that the explosive energy in Iran would destroy what the Iranians call global arrogance. "All the West's plots," explains President Khamene'i, "are aimed at stopping Islam and the revolution from becoming a world model." The Iranians have to engage in combat with all they have.

The war between Islam and "international blasphemy" has taken two main forms. First, the great powers put their agent, the Iraqi president, Saddam Husayn, up to a war which he obediently carried out. But military aggression failed against the hard rock of Islamic fervor. "After ten years," explains Mohtashemi, "the world gave up the hope of fighting Islam within Iran through military conflict."

Stumped, the foes of Islam had to find a second battlefront against Islam. The Western governments "summoned all their devilish experts and mercenaries to draw up anew a strategy against Islam." At the conclusion of all these efforts, global arrogance hit on a plan-warfare conducted (again) on the level of culture. The effort, according to a commentary on Radio Tehran, has two steps. First, "the aim is to weaken the Islamic faith among Muslims, thereby secularizing Muslims societies; this is then followed by an expansion of [Western] influence and the ultimate plundering of those societies' vital resources."

The Iranian authorities detailed a whole series of steps behind The Satanic Verses. Not for a minute did they believe the book had been written by a single author pursuing the whimsies of his own imagination. According to Rafsanjani, when Muslims read this book, "they will not see a mad Indian behind it; they will see Britain, Germany, France, and the United States." In his view, the Western intelligence services knew what they were doing when they picked Rushdie to be the ostensible author. They picked
a person who seemingly comes from India and who apparently is separate from the Western world and who has a misleading name [i.e., a Muslim name].... All these advance royalties were given to that person. One can see that they appointed guards for him in advance because they what they were doing.... All this tells us of an organized and planned effort. It is not an ordinary work.... I believe there has not previously been such a well-planned act as this.
The effort required five years and $1.5 million. British intelligence even managed to have The Satanic Verses introduced as "the book of the year" in Britain. Had Muslims not protested, the book would have been made into a film.

But how, an outsider might ask, can this novel hurt Muslims? By making their faith and their traditions less honorable through distortion and ridicule. It hurts to be "ridiculed by world arrogance," and the pain turns Muslims against Islam. Fortunately, Muslims understood what was brewing, and they showed "with their rage" an intent to neutralize the plot. Their steadfastness stopped the cultural campaign in its tracks. The Iranian leadership portrayed the Rushdie incident as a major reassertion of Islam, and therefore a turning point in the fortunes of the faith. For example, a newspaper editorial explained how the Turkish government had been taking quiet but effective steps toward "ridding Turkey of Islam." But the shock of The Satanic Verses awakened the true Muslims of Turkey to the dangers in their midst.

Note that the Iranian leaders speak of "the West," or "global arrogance," for they do not believe that British intelligence acted alone in putting Rushdie up to the job; as ever, it worked hand-in-glove with its big brother, the United States. An Iranian government statement referred to the book as a "provocative American deed" and called Rushdie "an inferior CIA agent." As the interior minister, Mohtashemi, put it, "the book's author is in England, but the real supporter is the United States."

The irony of identifying Rushdie with the American government was not lost on saner voices. Rushdie, after all, is a Muslim of Indian origins who lives in England and holds a British passport. Further, he is widely known as a "man of the left," who almost always opposes the policies of the U.S. government. How, then, did Rushdie and the United States become intertwined in the minds of fundamentalist Muslims? Because Anti-Westernism has a way of turning into anti-Americanism. Britain may have been the imperial overlord, but now it is nearly defanged; the military threat is virtually gone. Too, American culture has a symbolic role. Whether Rushdie is living in London or New York City is a minor detail to fundamentalist Muslims; the point is that the United States presents the main threat, for it is the leader of the Western world, that lascivious place where it is acceptable, even encouraged, to attack the Prophet and the Qur'an.

VIII

One might have expected the world to have dismissed the twisted edict that came from Khomeini as madness, root and branch. But one would have been wrong.

On the official level, to be sure, the Iranians found little support. Only the Libyan government publicly stood by the ayatollah and his edict. The Kuwaiti government announced that it shared an "identical stance" with Tehran on the matter of The Satanic Verses, but it carefully avoided stating equal agreement on its author.

At the popular level, however, anti-Rushdie violence showed support for Khomeini. In the Indian subcontinent violent demonstrations continued for a month. The largest number of deaths in a single incident occurred on February 24th, when rioting in Rushdie's home town of Bombay turned into a three-hour battle between the police and fundamentalist Muslims. The rioters burned cars, buses, and even a small police station. In answer, the police killed twelve persons, detained 500, and arrested 800. On March 4, thousands of demonstrators ransacked part of the Karachi airport in protest against the Rushdie novel, smashing doors and looting the VIP lounge; this was their way of welcoming home from Iran the pro-Khomeini Shi'i leaders, Sajid 'Ali Naqvi. Naturally, the Iranians gloried in these demonstrations, calling them a "manifestation of Muslim power throughout the world" and "symptoms of this very majesty."

Confronted with such emotion, many leaders in Muslim countries sought to avoid the whole issue. They did not refer to it in public and they instructed their media to cover the controversy without comment. "I don't care to comment about the action of the Government of Iran myself," was King Husayn of Jordan's reply to a question on the subject. "Turkey is not a party to the arguments concerning the book," came the word from Ankara.

Although the authorities in all Muslim countries acknowledged the alleged blasphemy of The Satanic Verses, some did oppose Khomeini's edict. Not surprisingly, the Iraqi government felt no qualms about attacking it. President Saddam Husayn observed that "murder and incitement to murder is more harmful to Islam and Muslim than Salman Rushdie's tendentious and sinister book." The Egyptian foreign minister, 'Ismat 'Abd al-Majid, blamed Khomeini for creating the problem, and held that "Khomeini had no right to sentence Rushdie to death."

Several individual voices from the Arab countries also criticized Khomeini. In an act of singular bravery, Naguib Mahfouz, winner of the 1988 Nobel Prize in literature, called Khomeini's threat an act of "intellectual terrorism." Understandably, Muslims resident in the West felt freest to speak out. The chairman of the Imams and Mosque Council in Britain, Zaka Badawi, offered his own house as an asylum to Salman Rushdie.

From the vantage point of governments wishing to stay out of the picture, the easiest, least worrisome step was to ban the book and say no more. Indeed, few non-Western governments containing substantial Muslim populations resisted Saudi and Iranian pressure to ban The Satanic Verses, and many banned all books by Viking-Penguin. Even in Israel, the Ministry of Religious Affairs requested that the Keter publishing house drop its plans for a Hebrew translation.

The most notable exception to this pattern was Turkey, where the authorities hold an almost-religious devotion to the secularist principles laid down sixty years ago by Atatürk. Despite an overwhelmingly Muslim population, a substantial fundamentalist movement, and active Iranian pressure (the Iranian consul in Erzurum distributed copies of the Khomeini fatwa against Rushdie to religious leaders throughout eastern Anatolia), Ankara stuck firmly, if quietly and unhappily, to freedom of expression. It was a no-win situation. To take a stand against the book would damage the country's European credentials and reduce its chances of being accepted into the European Economic Community; not to take a stand would upset the many fundamentalist Muslims in Turkey.

Also, notwithstanding a long-standing Muslim rebellion in the Philippines, the government in Manila indicated it could not ban the book, for this would traverse constitutional guarantees of free speech.

IX

Among non-Muslims, the Khomeini edict prompted responses in three stages. First, the week after February 14 was characterized by retreat and confusion. Publishers delayed or cancelled editions of the book, politicians temporized, even Rushdie apologized. Then, when it became clear that such concessions would win nothing in return from Khomeini, public opinion hardened and leaders adopted a more defiant stand, lasting from about February 20 to February 28. With the start of March a second round of retreats began, as writers, politicians, and religious figures turned against Rushdie. The controversy fell from sight in mid-March.

The governments of the West, who after all had both the responsibility and the means for protecting the rights of those threatened by Khomeini, responded in particularly timorous fashion. The British prime minister and the leader of the opposition, Neil Kinnock, kept silent about the ayatollah's threat for a full week. The newly-installed Secretary of State, James A. Baker 3d, could muster no more condemnation than to call the death threat "regrettable." The Canadian government temporarily banned imports of The Satanic Verses; worse, the government finessed the freedom-of-speech issue by relegating the decision to Revenue Canada, a tax agency. Bonn called the incident a "strain on German-Iranian relations." But it was the Japanese government that came out with the most spineless formulation of all: "encouraging murder," it intoned, "is not something to be praised."

Several governments-including the British, French and Soviet-sought a way out of the diplomatic impasse by noting that Khomeini's edict was issued not by the Iranian government but by the "spiritual leader" of the Islamic Revolution. Not only had ten years of experience shown this distinction to be utterly spurious, but the entire rank and file of the Iranian government fell all over themselves to align with Khomeini's action.

Moscow, which has a doctrinal antipathy in roughly equal measure for both freedom of speech and respect for religion, emerged looking rather well from the confrontation. Most impressive were the analyses offered in the Soviet media. In its Persian language broadcast, the Radio Peace and Progress said the call from Tehran for Rushdie's execution
is a source of great regret because it has eliminated the hopes... in the Soviet Union that the political crisis in relation to the said novel would die down.... Resorting to terror and threats in this way will have no other outcome for Iran but the exacerbation of international crises with dangerous consequences for Iran itself.
Another analysis on the station assessed blame even more bluntly: "Tehran's extremist reaction to The Satanic Verses has led to the current diplomatic war between Iran and the West." Similarly, Pravda referred to demonstrators supporting Khomeini as "Muslim fanatics."

Predictably, international organizations wanted nothing to do with the Rushdie issue, which polarized emotions and challenged the comfortable assumptions of a single order which underlie such institutions. Western efforts to condemn Khomeini at the United Nations Commission on Human Rights got nowhere, as the Muslim states made it clear they would oppose such efforts.

Finally, on February 20, the foreign ministers of the Common Market agreed on a strong statement about Rushdie and his publishers:
The Ministers of Foreign Affairs of the 12 member states of the European Community, meeting in Brussels, discussed the Iranian threats and incitements to murder against novelist Salman Rushdie and his publishers, now repeated despite the apology made by the author.

The ministers view those threats with the gravest concern. They condemn this incitement to murder as an unacceptable violation of the most elementary principles and obligations that govern relations among sovereign states....

The ministers of the 12 decided to simultaneously recall their Heads of Mission in Tehran for consultations and to suspend exchanges of high-level official visits.
But though the British government withdrew all its personnel from Tehran and demanded that all the Iranian representatives leave London, it did not break diplomatic relations, insisting instead on what it called "reciprocity at zero." Observers knew of no precedent for the maintenance of diplomatic relations without any personnel; the British move was understood as a way of expressing strong displeasure and regret simultaneously-that is, normal relations could be built back up just as soon as the edict was retracted. But the Iranians, far from retracting, took the next step in the diplomatic dance; on February 28 the Majlis (parliament) passed a bill that stipulated a complete break on March 7 unless the British government declared "its opposition to the unprincipled stands against the world of Islam, the Islamic Republic of Iran, and the contents of the anti-Islamic book, The Satanic Verses."

Prodded by feelers from "pragmatists" in Tehran, British leaders did what they could to satisfy Tehran. On March 2, Foreign Secretary Sir Geoffrey Howe went on the BBC World Service to show foreign listeners that the government wished to distance itself from Rushdie.
We understand that the book itself has been found deeply offensive by people of the Muslim faith. It is a book that is offensive in many other ways as well. We can understand why it could be criticized. The British Government, the British people, do not have any affection for the book. The book is extremely critical, rude about us. It compares Britain with Hitler's Germany. We do not like that any more than the people of the Muslim faith like the attacks on their faith contained in the book. So we are not cosponsoring the book. What we are sponsoring is the right of people to speak freely, to publish freely.
Two days later, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher made similar remarks.

The Iranians acknowledged these gestures but demanded practical measures as well, such as the legal prosecution of the writer, confiscation of copies of The Satanic Verses, and injunction against further publication of the book. These steps the British authorities did not even consider undertaking; so, as threatened, Tehran broke relations on March 7. Its statement, a product of its conspiracy view, included some of the most unusual language and reasoning to be found anywhere in international diplomacy: The statement noted that, "in the past two centuries Britain has been in the frontline of plots and treachery against Islam and Muslims," and it went on to provide details on perfidious Albion in Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan, and elsewhere. It alleged that London has suffered severe reverses at the hands of Islamic movements, and so it has dropped the old military tactics and adopted more sophisticated political and cultural ones-and this is what led the British to sponsor The Satanic Verses. But the Islamic Republic would not abide this plot, and therefore broke off relations with the United Kingdom. A Tehran daily suggested that the break could easily last "at least a decade."

In retaliation, the British government closed down the Iranian consulate in Hong Kong and expelled nine Iranians resident in the United Kingdom. The Foreign Office also urged British nationals to stay away from Lebanon. Further, the foreign secretary, using his strongest language since the controversy began, called the Iranian government a "deplorable regime" and (for the first time) condemned its recent "mass exterminations."

Two unusual features characterized these diplomatic moves. First, both the British and the Iranian governments could count on exceptionally wide domestic support for their actions, including nearly unanimous parliamentary backing. Second, for all the animosity between the two states, neither side made a single move to interfere with existing trade relations. The British continued to purchase Iranian crude oil, the Iranians continued to purchase a wide array of British goods, and such official British services as the Export Credits Guarantee Department (which provides short-term cover for British exports) witnessed a "fairly busy, regular market."

The foreign ministers of the forty-four states belonging to the Organization of the Islamic Conference met on March 13-16, 1989 in Riyadh and adopted the Saudi position, not the Iranian one, on Rushdie:
The conference declared that blasphemy cannot be justified on the basis of freedom of expression and opinion. The conference strongly condemned the book The Satanic Verses, whose author is regarded as a heretic. It appeals to all members of society to impose a ban on the book and to take the necessary legislation to insure the protection of the religious beliefs of others.
A British official responded a day later by attempting, not to explain that freedom of speech did indeed encompass blasphemy, but to disassociate his government from Rushdie. Foreign Office Minister William Waldegrave went on the BBC's Arabic Service to explain:
I would like to put on record that the British Government well recognizes the hurt and distress that this book has caused, and we want to emphasize that because it was published in Britain, the British Government had nothing to do with and is not associated with it in any way.... What is surely the best way forward is to say that the book is offensive to Islam, that Islam is far stronger than a book by a writer of this kind.
Radio Tehran read this statement as a British acknowledgment that the book includes blasphemous passages, and counted this admission as a major step forward from the Howe and Thatcher statements. It made, however, no concessions in return.

Exactly one month after the decision to withdraw top diplomats of the EEC from Iran, the foreign ministers met again and decided, under Greek, Irish, and Italian pressure, to send them back. Khomeini described the Europeans as returning in "shame, abjectness, and disgrace, regretting their deed." Lamely, the French Foreign Ministry called this an "exaggeration."

X

'Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani, speaker of the Iranian parliament, observed that the Rushdie affair is "one of the rarest and strangest events in history," and he is right. Several aspects of the Rushdie incident are unprecedented.

Never has a book been so much the heart of an international crisis. Never have so many governments waited so anxiously for the peaceable moves of a private writer. The absurdity of the situation was caught by a cartoon in Le Monde which showed Rushdie at his typewriter, surrounded by fifteen harried bobbies keeping an eye on him; one of the policemen barks into the walkie-talkie, "Close the airports!! He wants to write volume two!!!"

Similarly, never before has there been a human rights case that crossed boundaries in this fashion. "Other despots have banned books and outlawed thoughts," observed Hendrik Hertzberg. "What is unique and unprecedented about Khomeini is the global ambition, and the threatened global reach, of his censorship-by-threat. He has created the first planetary civil liberties case. This is his distinctive contribution to the history of tyranny." And the West's reaction, when confronted by the first planetary civil liberties case, was to back down as far as it legally could.

From www.danielpipes.org | Original article available at: www.danielpipes.org/article/186

I'm sorry about the double posting.

Dina, you are invited to some of the discussion forums for ex-Muslims:

http://www.secularislam.org/discussion33/Default.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/

Smitty:
“Your words are full of scorn and hatred toward others and I find them repulsive.”
My words are full of scorn and hatred against those who know what Islam really is, but refuse to admit it. My words are full of scorn and hatred against those who kill my innocent brothers and sisters. Just as you find my words repulsive, I find yours nauseating, abhorrent, and abominable. If you call me ignorant, then I really don’
“ You try to sound so nice and reasonable but your religion is full of murder and destruction.”
Back up your statement from the Quran and Hadith.
“By the way, I have read the Quran and I reject it. See you in Hell.”
Insha allah, neither of us will be in Hell, and insha allah, you will realize the truth.

Bill:
After reading your post, I felt as if my heart would break. After I have posted this comment, not one person replied back to this, not one human who couldn’t care less about a young boy screaming for mercy. This story was all over the place. It was on this postcard, which demanded that the US stop giving our tax money to the Israelis who use it to buy their weapons which are in turn used against the people in Palestine. I’ll try to find a website where it will give you the full story.

EPG:
“Dina - You are compelled to fight against those that won't allow you to "practice your religion." Hmm. What kind of religion is it that allows fighting. Surely that can't be a tenet of a peaceful religion!”
Seriously, I really do not know how dim-witted you guys can get. So what do you want me to do, epg? Just sit there, and worship some stupid idol made of stone? You want me to sit there, and watch my religion being torn to pieces, and my brothers and sisters not be able to practice it? If that’s it, then you really are some coward. Our religion explains every single detail, informs us of every single thing which is allowed and prohibited, everything from the eating to bathroom using. If that’s what you believe, then I think you should stop fighting for your beloved America. If you dont like whats written in the quran or hadith, then thats your problem. As long as you know that Islam is not a blood cult, or a religion of terror, and as long as you know what Islam is really about, then I couldnt care any less. You refuse to believe the truth, Allah will deal with you. And yet, I ask Allah (SWT) to forgive you for saying such things, and refusing to believe in Islam.

Salams,
Dina

That pretty well sums it up. Islam = Death crazed fanatics.

I tell everyone I know about this website. All people need to know what Islam means.

Franklin Graham nailed this one right squarely on the head: it is pure evil.

Here Dina, why don't you chew on my post from another thread:

Mahmoud says:

"If you like to know about Islam, please go and learn Arabic language. This is the first step for you out of the ani-muslim propaganda to learn about true Islam. Our Arab borthers and sisters speak 3 languages more and less and try to communicate with any people with their own language. Honestly, how many of you know Arabic language? Not to mention reading Holy Koran in Arabic."

Quoting Robert Spencer, I say:

"Muslim controversialists often try to silence critics who quote uncomfortable passages from Islamic sources by maintaining that they can be truly understood only in Arabic. This claim, however, is palpably absurd. Muslims around the world preach Islam and attempt to make converts in languages other than Arabic. If the Qu'ran's message can be understood only in Arabic, why do they do this? Also, most Muslims in the world today are not native speakers of Arabic; the most populous Muslim country is Indonesia, hardly an Arab land. With ancient and populous Muslim communities existing outside the Arab world, from Bosnia to Iran and Pakistan to Indonesia, Muslims have always translated the Qur'an, if only for private spiritual edification."

p. xii, Onward Muslim Soldiers, by Robert Spencer

Mahmoud says:

"How many of you instead of surfing the websites that distribute nothing but hatred against Holy Islam, took the time to visit your local Holy Mosque and talk with your borthers their? Not judging anyone there before you have a little chat with them? Maybe they can help you to learn some basic Arabic and then you can read Holy Koran with yourelf on its original state. It also helps you to communicate with our Muslim brothers and sisters aways from the corrupted propaganda."

I say:

The first thing that I would caution you about is that Muslims lie constantly about their faith. So, to do as Mahmoud suggests, would be counterproductive. You would actually end up knowing less about Islam if you talked to Muslims. Also, I urge you to investigate this web page documenting the ideas of taqiyya and kitman:

http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp

On a personal note on this issue, when I was a teenager, I worked with a Muslim girl. I asked her many questions about Islam and I just accepted her answers at face value, as I could not imagine that anyone would deliberately lie about their faith. Only after 9/11, when I undertook a serious investigation of Islam and read the Qur'an myself for the first time, did I realize that she had deliberately lied to me about almost everything that I had asked.

As far as reading the Qur’an, please read the Qur’an. You can not understand Islam without reading it. When you read the Qur’an, the first thing that you will notice is that it is not chronological nor is it very well organized. It appears as if somebody had just been talking off the top of their head and it had been written down on palm leaves and camel bone shoulders and then collected later. Or as Carlyle says about the Qur’an, “A wearisome confused jumble, crude, incondite; endless iterations, long-windedness, entanglement; most crude incondite – insupportable stupidity, in short! Nothing but a sense of duty could carry any European through the Koran.” A good companion to read the Qur’an with is Ali Dashti’s 23 years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad or Ibn Warraq’s WhyI am not a Muslim. Also, most people do not realize that initially the Qur’an had numerous versions. According to Muslims, the Caliph Uthman (644-656) prepared a final codex and ordered all others destroyed. The previous version of events is also open to question. One of my sources (The Timelines of History) suggests that the Qur’an was not finalized until 935.

However, you also cannot understand Islam without reading the history of Islam, the hadith (collections of remembrances about what Muhammad
said and did while he was alive which are used as guides as to how to live and also as the basis for Islamic Sacred Law, Sharia), and studying the Sharia. Also, you must understand something about Tafsir (how to interpret the Qur’anic verses) and abrogation. Most people do not realize that most Muslims consider the peaceful verses that Muhammad recited at Mecca to have been abrogated by the aggressive, violent passages that he recited at Medina. I commend to you the following article by Daniel Pipes about reading the Qur’an:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1461

From www.danielpipes.org | Original article available at: www.danielpipes.org/article/1461
Study the Koran?
by Daniel Pipes
New York Sun
January 20, 2004
"Anyone concerned with what's happening in our world ought to spend some time reading the Koran." Andy Rooney, the famed CBS commentator, gave this advice shortly after 9/11, as did plenty of others.
His suggestion makes intuitive sense, given that the terrorists themselves say they are acting on the basis of the holy scripture of Islam. Accused 9/11 ringleader Mohammed Atta had a Koran (sometimes spelled Qur'an) in the suitcase he had checked for his flight. His five-page document of advice for fellow hijackers instructed them to pray, ask God for guidance, and "continue to recite the Koran." Osama bin Laden often quotes the Koran to motivate and convince followers.
Witnesses report that at least one of the suicide bombers who tried to assassinate Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, last month was reading the Koran before blowing himself up. Hamas suicide videotapes routinely feature the Koran.
And lots of non-Muslims in fact have been reading the Koran. In the weeks after September 11, the book's largest publisher in the United States reported that sales had quintupled; it had to airlift copies from Great Britain to meet the demand. American bookstores reported selling more Korans than Bibles.
All this, incidentally, was music to Islamist ears. Hossam Gabri of the Islamic Society of Boston, a group tied to a terrorism funder, considers non-Muslims trying to understand the Koran "a very good development."
But reading the Koran is precisely the wrong way to go about understanding "what's happening in our world." That's because the Koran is:
• Profound. One cannot pick it up and understand its meaning when nearly every sentence is the subject of annotations, commentaries, glosses, and superglosses. Such a document requires intensive study of its context, development, and rival interpretations. The U.S. Constitution offers a good analogy: its Second Amendment consists of a just 27 words ("A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed") but it is the subject of numerous book-length studies. No one coming fresh to this sentence has any idea of its implications.
• Complex and contradictory. Contradictions in the text have been studied and reconciled over the centuries through extensive scholarly study. Some verses have been abrogated and replaced by others with contrary meanings. For example, verse 9:5 commands Muslims not to slay pagans until the sacred months have passed and verse 9:36 tells Muslims to fight pagans during those same months. The casual reader has no idea which of these is operational. (In fact, the latter is.)
• Static: An unchanging holy scripture cannot account for change over time. If the Koran causes terrorism, then how does one explain the 1960s, when militant Islamic violence barely existed? The Koran was the same text then as now. More broadly, over a period of 14 centuries, Muslims have been inspired by the Koran to act in ways aggressive and passive, pious and not, tolerant and not. Logic demands that one look elsewhere than an immutable text to account for such shifts.
• Partial: Holy books have vast importance but do not create the immediate context of action. Reading the Bible in isolation gives limited insight into the range of Jewish and Christian experiences over the millennia; likewise, Muslims have read the Koran differently over time. The admonishment for female modesty meant one thing to Egyptian feminists in the 1920s and another to their descendants today. Then, head coverings represented oppression and exclusion from public life. Today, in the words of a British newspaper headline, "Veiled is beautiful." Then, the head-covering signaled a woman not being a full human being; now, in the words of an editor at a fashion magazine, the head-covering "tells you, you're a woman. … You have to be treated as an independent mind." Reading the Koran in isolation misses this unpredictable evolution. In brief, the Koran is not a history book.
A history book, however, is a history book. Instead of the Koran, I urge anyone wanting to study militant Islam and the violence it inspires to understand such phenomena as the Wahhabi movement, the Khomeini revolution, and Al-Qaeda. Muslim history, not Islamic theology, explains how we got here and hints at what might come next.
For responses to this article, see:
• Ali Sina, "Yes, study the Quran!" FaithFreedom.org, 21 January 2004.
• Irfan Khawaja, "Daniel Pipes Is Wrong ... People Should Read the Koran to Learn About Muslim Terrorism," History News Network, 8 March 2004
From www.danielpipes.org | Original article available at: www.danielpipes.org/article/1461

Mentat - That may be what the Koran says about wife abuse, but it's a crock! Women, if this information doesn't rile you enough to rise up to protect yourself and your daughters, nothing will! Sharia courts are just across the border in Canada. Women of the United States beware, this could happen to us!

Dina:
"For the beating of a women, this is as an extremely last resort. When? When they refuse to follow Islam, and its rules and regulations."
--WWJD?

Dina:

Another one of my blunt infidel questions:

Do you still have a clitoris?

It is extremely important. Most women I know would like to keep their's...if I had one, I'd probably feel the same way.

Kirk

PS- heading to the allah u ak Bar for another cold one. Old Mo Light! Redneck Favorite.

Dear Mahmoud, Reza, Jihadist, and Dina,

I would like to respond by saying that I have read the Qur'an, Hadiths and some of the Sharia. I'm sorry to say that I find nothing new in these texts, no new revelations.

Also, I'm sorry to say that what the Qur'an says about Christianity is in error. If you have not already surmised, I am a Christian. I would be happy to point these errors out to you.

I don't say this to insult you. I'm sure that you believe as strongly in your faith as I do in mind. If muslims believe that the Qur'an is without error and errors exist, then can you truly believe that your faith is true?

I invite you to consider this and I will leave you with one of the errors that I am refering to and the explanation.

005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

I will grant you that Christians believe that Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, One God in three persons. The Qur'an's definition of the Trinity is another error but that is for another discussion if you so choose.

Never in the history of Christianity was Jesus' mother Mary considered divine and worthy of worship. There is nothing in Christian theology, tradition or history where Mary was made equal to God and worshipped. She is reverred and honored because she gave birth to Jesus. There is no worship of her or divinity attributed to her because of this act.

The statement "Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah" cannot be read as anything other than Jesus saying His mother was considered equal to God. Being considered equal to God is attributing divinity to the individual. Reason points this out.

The Qur'an says that the Torah and Bible are corrupt. There is nothing in the New Testament that states that Mary was considered divine. Thus, making this statement cannot have been made on the alleged corruption of the Bible.

The statement had to have been based on events or practices or beliefs other than found in the Bible. A thorough analysis of Christian history, theology and dogma will reveal that Mary was never believe to possess divine nature nor worthy of worship.

I would like to elucidate for you why people are opposed to Islam for secular or religious reasons.

The first is Dhimmitude. This practice is inherently oppressive and discrimminatory. It, in effect places a person in a second-class citizen status with limited rights and freedoms as compared to those who are enforcing the practice. It is a form of Apartheid. And when compared to the Bill of Rights, it cannot be viewed as anything other than an unjust system in light of the statement "All men are created Equal with inalienable rights as deemed by their Creator." I will grant you that there have been injustices but we strive to correct our mistakes.

From a religious standpoint, dhimmitude denies the dignity and humanity that is instilled by God. Jesus says that we are all equal in the eyes of God. Jesus says in Luke 6:35-36 "But love your enemies and do good to them, and lend when there is nothing to expect in return. Then will your reward be great and you will be children of the Most High. FOR HE IS KIND TO THE UNGRATEFUL AND THE WICKED. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Dhimmitude does not promoted peace or mercy but hatred and enemies.

The next is the statement that Christians and Jews are pigs and monkeys. This can be considered nothing but racist. It is blasphemous in the eyes of God to degrade human beings in such a way. In Genesis 1:26 "God said, "Let us make man in our image, to our likeness..." Every person on this earth was created by God in his image and likeness. Satan himself rejected God because God wanted him to serve man. Comparing people to animals has nothing to do with God.

Jesus says in Matthew 7:25-26 "This is why I tell you not to be worried about food and drink for yourself, or about clothes for your body. Is not life more important than food and not the body more important than clothes? "Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow, they do not harvest and do not store food in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. ARE YOU NOT WORTH MORE THAN BIRDS?"

Jesus confirms the dignity of each person and that God provides for all because we are much, much more than animals.

The final opposition pertains to those who leave Islam and are threatened with death for being an Apostate. Death to Apostates is clearly stipulated in the Qur'an and the Hadith.

Again, this is an afront against the dignity of each human being to exercise their freedom of religion. Please do not quote the verse about "there is not compulsion in religion." I am aware of it. This is a hipocrasy. When you give the person 3 days to return to Islam or be killed, this IS compulsion.

Jesus predicted this in John 16:2-4 when he said "Still more, the hour is coming when anyone who kills you will claim to be serving God; they will do this because they have not known the Father of me." When you kill an apostate or an infidel because you believe you are doing God's will, Jesus says you are not.

Dear muslims, consider what I have written here. I will pray for you.

If you care to respond to his post, please do so at the e-mail provided because I will be off the site for the rest of the evening.

Peace,

John

Bill:

“Since in America we believe in the separation of church and state, I don't think it's equivelent to compare Salman Rushdie's leaving Islam to how the US would view a national traitor. We do not prosecute people for leaving Christianity or any other religion.”
I was using this as an example for those who seem to find frightening, even though the death penalty is never used. Instead, the person is given three days, or is imprisoned for life. However, they are similar. America gives the death penalty to those who betray America, just as Islam turns against those who betray Islam. It is not the matter of religion. Action is taken against turncoats.

Gary:
“~Your grandchildren will go on Hajj in Porky Pig costumes.”
I don’t even have children, and please stop these childish remarks. You couldn’t possibly go any lower now can you?
“At least I was proved right- she Did read a lot into it. A lot of Hooey.”
I am glad that you acknowledge the fact that what you wrote was complete nonsense. You did notmake the least bit of sense, and you still don’t. What questions did you ask that I didn’t answer?

M
4:34 “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). “
This is the whole and valid ayah. This toothbrush stuff came from a Muslim brother who has a masters degree in Sharia.

Ali:
“Dina, you are invited to some of the discussion forums for ex-Muslims.”
And I am going to visit these websites…because? I am content with my religion, I believe it is the right and true one, and the Quran is the true word of God, and that no one will be able to convert me to any other religion besides Islam. I would have to be a completely dense idiot to leave such a beautiful religion as this. Those people who realized years ago the many flaws that Christianity contains, left it, just as your former priest, Yusuf Estes, did. And, I am not willing to visit websites that are constructed by non-muslims, trying to teach other Muslims.

salams,
Dina

Questions for Dina:

1. Our Islamic clerics asking for and teaching peace in madrassis, and mosques among other religions?

2. Our Islamic clerics teaching tolerance of other religious beliefs in mosques, and madrassis?

3. Our Islamic clerics teaching respect for the religious beliefs of others in their mosques and madrassis?

4. Does Islam respect the sanctity of life, and embrace and celebrate it among all men and women for whatever religion they may practice?

Dina: Yusuf Estes, former priest, became a Muslim. Counterpoint: here's the story of two Muslim brothers who'd converted to Christianity:

"Reared as Sunni Muslims, brothers Ergun Caner and Emir Caner heard the gospel of grace as high school students. Even though the boys’ conversion led to their father disowning them soon after, they eventually led both their mother and grandmother to Christ.

Subsequently surrendering to the gospel ministry, both brothers have spent 20 years teaching Christians how to reach their countrymen with the gospel of grace. The Caners now hold a total of four master’s degrees and two doctorates. Ergun Caner teaches at Liberty University; Emir Caner teaches at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Since September 11, 2001, the brothers have spoken over 400 times in churches, conventions, assemblies, and universities. They have also appeared on Fox News, various CNN shows, MSNBC, The 700 Club, and others. In addition to Out of the Crescent Shadows, the Drs. Caner have authored four other books, including the CBA bestseller Unveiling Islam. Dr. Ergun Caner and his wife, Jill, have one son."

http://www.newhopepublishers.com/authors/authordetails.asp?auth_id=11

Dina: "And I am going to visit these websites…because? I am content with my religion, I believe it is the right and true one, and the Quran is the true word of God."

That's exactly why I invited you to these forums. Explain why you think Islam is right.

Dina, I could care less that your information about the toothbrush stuff came from a Muslim brother who has a Master's Degree in Sharia. Degrees don't impress me. Some of the stupidest people that I have ever met have had PhDs. Would you please tell me the scholarly sources for this toothbrush stuff. Unlike you, I think for myself. I don't let other people think for me.

Well, since I've been away, Dina has dropped the pretense of being a "moderate" Muslim and come out foursquare for murdering someone for just writing a book!

Moreover she's been unable to answer any questions directed toward her honestly. Dina, you didn't answer my question about Christian refugees at all. I didn't "refuse" to accept your answer; you didn't provide one. Got that Dina? YOU DIDN'T PROVIDE ONE. How hard is it to understand my simple question?

Instead, you narrated some nonsense about Mo refusing to kill some Christian prisoners of war (WOW, so big of him!). I did not ask about POWs, I asked about refugees and welfare benefits. Question not acknowledged or nor answered, as per usual.

And people like this wonder why we get frustrated with them! They refuse to provide simple answers to straight questions and just come back with evasions and deflections.

So frustrating! But, at least, people reading this forum can have a taste of what it is like to try to talk to a true-believing, brainwashed Muslim.

MENTAT - Thank you for responding to my request for info. The article made very intersting reading for me, I intend to do some further research on the whole Rushdie affair, there's a lot to find out isn't there? Vous etes francais, n'est ce pas?, alors, je vous remercie pour cette info, au revoir et VIVE LA RESISTANCE !

What do you expect from these Muslims? They have "rules" for everything so they don't even have to think.... In fact, they don't know how to think..... they just parrot whatever their Imam tells them... and what is an Imam.... well, it's not like there is any established educational tract to be one.... No, rather, if a man is considered the most learned in the community he often becomes the Imam.... so you technically can have the less ignorant leading the ignorant... and we can see where this has led.... Muslims would follow their leaders off a cliff if the Imam told them that would be what the Prophet wanted them to do... and frankly, that is exactly what is going on today... And the Prophet, anyone ever read The Life of Muhammad by Muhammad H. Haykal? Interesting read. The Prophet, before he was the Prophet, was a kept man. He married an older wealthy woman. He never supported himself like a real man should have. In addition to that, he was a depressive and admitted to wanting to commit suicide on more than one occassion. His wife was the stabilizing force in his life... When he started having his revelations.... he thought he was going crazy.... but his dear wife kept telling him he wasn't and it was her who started this whole idea that he was a prophet.... sure is a better story than your husband is crazy.... Tell someone something long enough and they start to believe it... Hmmmm ... Messenger of God or Madman..... Well, I am sure I would be disemboweled and have my head chopped off by some mindless Muslim if they could get their hands on me..... such a peaceful... kind ... loving .... religion.... an enlightened bunch.... in the end.... it isn't what the educated elitist Islamic Scholars think... it's what these non-thinking adherents believe and as they willing walk off the cliffs on the way to purification..... God help us...

you all believe in the day of judgement? the final hour? then youll all feel really damn stupid for saying this kinda stuff about islam. sorry, but thats just the way it is. we'll all see then, who prevails, and who is right, wont we? then we will see who regrets not listening to the call of islam, wont we? then, as i said, you all will feel pretty damn stupid.

Dina

If passing a death sentence on someone for writing a book is your idea of religion, then you don't belong in the USA. Go and live in a Muslim country, and pronounce death sentences for artists there instead.

test

infidel: "then you don't belong in the USA."
well now, i dont think you are one to say who belongs in america and who doesnt, are you? because if she really wasnt supposed to be here, she would be gone some while ago...

No, sorry, she doesn't belong in the USA, she belongs in a primitive backward Islamic country ruled by sharia. She belongs in the rioting crowds in Pakistan willing to tear some poor innocent person to shreds because some nasty old Imam got wasted. That is the best place for someone to be who thinks that a person should be murdered just for writing a freakin' book.

That's the problem with (many) Muslims: they don't want to live in the nasty, poverty-stricken, violent environments their "perfect" religion has created. They want to leech off of our Western countries with their better living standards, fat welfare benefits, and comparative peace.

God help us all. 10 or 20 years from now WE will have the stupid rioting Muslims in our cities, tearing innocent people from limb to limb for the sake of their "religion". WE will see our living standards decline as the Muslims bring their wonderful "peace" to all our neighborhoods!

Dina~ I asked about the clothing those women were wearing, Twit. If you didn't know the answer to such a simple question, why did you bother responding?

Sorry... that was another simple question. I forgot your kind are not interested in knowledge, only destruction.

I think I am going to join the NRA.

Me too Emily.

muslimpride

Well now, have you not noticed that there are such things as courts of law in the USA? They are the instutions responsible for passing sentence on people. Nobody else. Just the courts. Got that?

Poster By Indifel Watson

It seems your ignorance is rampant! You are so incompetent to read 3 arabic words to realise a simple Islamic pray and Yet you act like you know all about our Holy Religion Islam.

Posted by: Mahmoud at May 30, 2004 04:40 PM

Mahmoud, did you mean to say (posted by?) And, you spelled INFIDEL wrong, dodo.

And I'm the ignorant one? Since I'm a proud American, I feel no need to know Arabic...It's not the language here, and it never will be. I know English, and some Italian, tu facha de merde. It appears that you could use some English classes, so you can stop butchering it.

Islam-Holy Religion? Racists like you an Reza have turned Islam into a giant toilet.

You, Reza, Jihadist, and the rest of the Islamic dreamers that post here need to remember that the United States feeds, medicates, and financially aides much of the Middle East. If we wanted to be barbaric cut-throats like your hero terrorists, we could simply starve the Mid-East, or let them go and meet Allah early through sickness and disease. We won't do that, because unlike you, we care about everyone, not just those who carry a Qur'an.

Proof? Grain...Not much grows in sand. We feed you.

Proof? A little Iraqi child recently had to be flown to the U.S. because the surgery required to remove the tumor she suffered from couldn't be performed anywhere in the almighty Islamic world.

Proof? While the Hamas thugs tell anyone who'll listen that America is an "enenmy of God" We send the Palestinians fiancial aid, which the troll Arafat has embezzled for years, because he's a lying thief.

Instead of worrying about the fool's errand of trying to convert the world into a gigantic cult, perhaps more emphasis should be placed on catching up with the rest of the world.

Your accusations of America "stealing" oil are amusing. We've taken no oil, except what we've been price gouged for.

Mr. Mentat
Muslim controversialists often try to silence critics who quote uncomfortable passages from Islamic sources by maintaining that they can be truly understood only in Arabic. This claim, however, is palpably absurd.

In plain words, the writer is telling you "it's ok you don't need to read arabic to understand Islam, we will translate it for you and tell it to you and well becuase you don't go to search by yourself in real Arabic contexts then I am right!"

I don't know any Muslim brotehr or sister that "try to silence" you to not know more about Islam. As more as you know about true Islam and Holly Allah, as more you like to know about it and every Muslim brother and sister is here to help you understand true Islam.

WHAT they actually say is that Don't misquote Holy Islam with false out-of-the-context messages . Let people Read Holy Koran in its true words and language by themselves and then choose if they need your assistance.
Which is ironically once again misquoted by Writer's interpretation Which is once again misquoted by you which is once again misquoted by... over and over again. Learning Arabic will learn people to end this circle of ignorance.

Muslims around the world preach Islam and attempt to make converts in languages other than Arabic. If the Qu'ran's message can be understood only in Arabic, why do they do this?

The primary Language of Islam is Arabic and every Muslim prays in Arabic Language. The blessed western Muslim brother and sisters which converts to Islam, they also prays in Arabic. Thier common sense tell them by knowing Arabic they can learn more about Koran and Holy Islam without needing any translator and avoid any hesiations.

The lack of Arabic language between intellectual americans is another reason to start learning Arabic. Don't you think it's odd that they actually "try to affraid" you of learning Arabic language by misquoting you deeper and deepr and not encouraging you to go read it by yourself?

And by the way, courts of law are institutions, not instutions. Instutions don't exist. ;-)

Dina, like Reza and Mahmoud and Jihadist, is very amusing and instructive. Her entire world is based on Islam; if her faith is shaken, she has nothing left. The primitive and pitiful level of her thought is not accidental; whatever else Islam does (and it probably makes more people unafraid to die in battle -- which does have its uses, but is not the most useful skill in life), it certainly stunts the mental growth.

One hardly knows where to begin. She keeps listing three worthies who converted to Islam. Paul Findley, the antisemitic former Congressman who wrote a conpsiracy-theory book about Israel and another praising the beauty of Islam (for love or money, I don't know -- he may have been the rare example of one motivated by both)did not, as far as I know, convert. He is a worthy promoter of Muslim causes, and of the Jihad against Israel, I grant that. Cat Stevens, who did the music for that wonderful movie Harold and Maude, for some reason -- the Search for Truth, the Need to Sink Himself into the Brotherhood of Islam, the Need to Demonstrate his Alienation with the System -- you name it, for some reason metamorphosed into Yusuf Ali, and yes, as has been pointed out, warmly endorsed the fatwa on Rushdie. The third example Dina adduces escapes me. But I will help her out. There was Adam Gadahn, and John Walker Lindh, and Jose Padilla, and Richard Reid -- converts all to Islam. And no doubt one could add other names, of the most pathetic and pitiful sort -- too pathetic, too pitiful, even to mock.

While those who convert to Islam, at least nowadays, are usually the most psychically marginal, or the sort of people who try beliefs on -- Trotskyism this decade, Hari Krishna that decade, a little crystal therapy, some Rolfing, why not a dash of Esalen? -- we are all familiar with the types, are we not? You know, the kind of person who wants to find herself, and last you heard, she was still looking in California? (I owe my mother for this witticism). So why not come to psychic rest, if psychic rest is what you crave, in the Big Brotherhood of Islam, where everything has a rule, soup to nuts, hairstyle to whether you can defecate in water (ooops, you can't), and you can be a Brother Among Brothers. Gustave Le Bon's crowd psychology, Leni Reifenstahl's worship of Nuremberg lemmings -- it all fits in. If you hate being condemned to the solitary confinement of your own soul, why then Islam, that religion of the collective, is for you. Come on in, as Dina says -- it's really great. It will solve everything. Just look at how wonderful Muslim countries are, and look at the faces of those Muslim masses, eyes glittering with intelligence, compassion, and wit. Why, just take a look at the assembled princdes of the House of Al-Saud: aren't they lovely? And that Qur'an, that eternal and uncreated Qur'an, which was given to the Arabs, "the first among peoples," and in "their own language" -- what a masterpiece. The King James Bible has nothing on that, especially Sura 9:29. That's real poetry; none of this tohu-bohu and Lord is my shepherd stuff, or Song of Solomon naughtiness for us -- nope, its kill the Unbeliever, kill him or make him pay the Jizya, and in a manner that shows his submission.

Oh, speaking of the jizya, it is important that this "tax" not be understood as some kind of Estimated Tax form you put into an envelope and mail off to the Grand Vizier. Not at all. Dhimmis had to appear, in person, and be publicly humiliated -- spat upon (Hindus had to open their mouths, so that the spit would go into their mouths), or struck by Muslims. It was important that the tax be paid in conditions that emphasized the humiliation and degradation of the non-Muslim.

Nor was the Jizyah the extent of what was demanded. Christians and Jews had to wear idnetifying marks on both their clothing and their dwellings (the Yellow Star for Jews was borrowed by Hitler from Abbasid Baghdad). Non-Muslims had to ride donkeys (it makes a difference in the possibilities of travel, if you are going between cities). They had to dismount before Muslims. They had to accept beatings by Muslims. They could not marry Muslim women. They could not attain permanent high positions -- a few managed to become court advisers, but only temporarily, and always in a state of constant insecurity. The testimony of non-Muslims against Muslims was worthless, which meant that a Muslim could cheat a non-Muslim who would then be unable to recover. The Jizya was essentially ransom money, paid to ensure continued survival. If for some reason the ruler, or the mob, decided to have non-Muslims murdered, it happened, despite the famous Jizyah. There are records of massacres of non-Muslims throughout the history of Islam -- even in the fabled, and greatly romanticized "convivencia" of Andalucia, the Jews of Grenada were massacred overnight. And it happened again and again -- in Fez, for example. In the Yemen, Jews were essentially chattel, owned by Arab tribes, and if an Arab in tribe A killed a Jew belonginig to Tribe B, an Arab in Tribe B could get revenge, and did, by killing a Jew belonging to Tribe A. That's what dhimmitude means. For the Zoroastrians and the Hindus, it was even worse.

Dina, is there anything finer, in your vivid imagination, than the role model of Muhammad? What could be more wonderful than a sixty-year-old man, Viagraless, finding comfort in the arms of a nine-year-old? It was a story found so inspirational by the Ayatollah Khomeini, that virtually his first act was to reduce the marriageable age of girls to nine. As other Muslim posters have suggested at this site, that is really a wonderful way to prevent the corruption of females for which we in the decadent West are so famous -- marry them off at the age of six, have intercourse with them at the age of nine, then they won't have time to remain unmarried and be corrupted. Yes, I understand the logic. It all makes sense, if you accept a thousand premises which most of us deem moronic and morally unacceptable. You go your way; Infidels will go ours. Don't call us; we'll call you. Do try to find countries to live in more hospitable to Islam rather than attempt a makeover of those in dar al-Harb. I would suggest, on the basis of recent news, that there may be some job openings in Saudi Arabia quite soon, and being a Muslim will be a definite plus.

Do not, whatever you do, ever go to www.secularislam.org or www.faithfreedom.org. These sites are absolutely forbidden to Muslims. They are dangerous to the psychic health of the True Believer. Those sites .full of the crazed rantings of people such as Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina, who hardly know a thing about Islam. And besides, they are such inveterate liars. They make up all these quotes from the Qur'an and the hadith that just can't be true. I mean, have you ever looked at the "Calcutta Koran" and all those made-up passages that just aren't in the Holy Qur'an? What won't Infidels stoop to? And all those supposed ex-Muslims who write articles posted at those websites, they must really be Christians or Zionists. No real Muslim would ever give up Islam. It just can't be. It doesn't make any sense. Don't go there, Dina.

On another note, having gotten tired of the figure of "1.2 billion Muslims in the world" being bandied abot, I decided to add up, using figures generally agreed upon, number of Muslims in each of those countries deemed to be Muslim, and then to add in the reported Muslim populations in Infidel countries. I come up with about 850 million, at most, not 1.2 billion. It doesn't really matter, but apparently these imaginary figures are like profits declared at Enron -- they keep putting out figures to satisfy their shareholders -- the Muslim Believers. Even if every last person in the member states of the IOC can be counted as a Muslim, which is clearly not true (in Kazakhstan, in Lebanon, in Turkey, in Indonesia, in Pakistan, there are in toto tens of millions of Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Confucians), one still can't come up with the figure Muslims like to use (now I'm beginnning to hear "1.3 billion." Now where did that come from?

I want to add my mite to make still more difficult the desperate Dina's increasingly clumsy attempts to defend her indefensible belief-system. As long as Muslims was conquering other peoples and religions, the concocted religion of Islam, with bits and pieces of pagan Arab lore from the time of the Jahiliya, and of Judaism (the Promised Land is in the Qur'an), and Christianity, served perfectly to justify and promote that conquest. But the year is 2004, and people are jostling one another all over the globe, and there is one odd man out, among the Christians and the Jews and the Hindus and the Buddhists and the Sikhs and the Jains and the Confucians and the agnostics and the atheists and the Wiccans and those who believe in the power of poetry and the cult of Truth and Beauty, and those who never saw a purple cow, but would rather see than be one -- yes, here we all are, in our respective follies, but not forcing others to be just like us. And if there were ever a more decent, genuinely pluralistic mass democracy than the United States of America, I haven't heard of it. Anyone who looked carefuly at the faces of the American soldiers who died in Iraq, as they slowly moved across the screen on Sixty Minutes tonight, could not have refrained from tears, at so many faces that were recognizably good and kind, faces so different from those of the demented primitives those soldiers were supposed to be rescuing from the clutches of Saddam Hussein, and then, maddeningly, supposed to be helping by reconstructing the wretched country (Extreme Makeover: Iraq) for people whose range of emotions over the deaths of these men ranged from, at best, complete indifference to, at worst, a frenzied delight. American soldiers should not be getting killed in the vain hope that "democracy" is the solution; the problem for Infidels, and for the Muslim world itself, which however cannot bring itself to fully recognize, is Islam itself. The problem of the Muslim countries is Islam. And until Iraq is de-islamized, which can only come from within, the chimera of "democracy" is either unobtainable, or if obtainable through heroic American efforts, not likely to lead to any diminishment in anti-Infidel feeling. Why is this so hard for official Washington to understand? Because it is too painful to admit? Let the Muslim peoples and polities from relyuing on Western aid, Western medicine, Western weaponry, Western knowhow, Western education for their young, let them deal with their own systems without foreign aid, and with less and less OPEC money to play with, and eventually Islam will be tamed, not changed but tamed, by Muslims themselves. Rope off their lands -- no tourist trade, no nothing -- limit their out-migration so that the dar al-Harb is no longer available to accomodate their excess population, no longer available as a palce for Da'wa, for conversion and subversion from within. We have had ample warning. No weapons more advanced than jeeps and rifles. No migrants to the West, who bring with him very high associated costs -- the costs above all of increased security measures, to monitor mosques, record khutbas, watch Muslim communities, as the entire Infidel world now must -- and the cost to our own social fabric, when groups of people schooled in deception, disloyal to the nation-state (as they must be, by their own tenets, for loyalty must be to Islam alone), and a source of constant litigation, grievance, propaganda, and everyting else that makes our lives more difficult, expensive, unpleasant, and dangerous than it would be without a significant Muslim population. I do not know of a single Frenchman who would not, if he could, undo the Muslim immigration of the past thirty years. But he feels now only fear and despair. We do not need to repeat the folly of France.

Eventually, some Muslims will be forced by circumstances to tame and limit the practice of Islam. They cannot change the words or the doctrines. They can put limites on what parts of Qur'an and hadith are used in sermons, and they can limit the outward and visible signs of Muslim power (the hijab). As in Singapore, Infidel countries will have to come up with legal regimes to deal with this very special and peculiar problem, one that no other group, ethnic or religious, presents to the safety of all those who do not belong to that group.

Again, I want to assure Dina that we are eager to leave Iraq. The Iraqis have not impressed. Their irresponsible leaders range from the unrepresenative though winning Chalabi (he spent 45 years outside the country, leaving it when he was a boy -- can he really beconsidered an Iraqi at all? Isn't he an Arabic-speaking Western man?), to that crook and Arab-League agent, that Baghdadian Vicar of Bray, Adnan Pachachi, who has served every Iraqi government from that of "strongman" (that was his fixed Homeric epithet) Nuri al-Said, before the coup of 1958, and that of Nuri al-Said's killer, Colonel Qassem, and then that of the Ba'athists who in turn killed Colonel Qassem, until Saddam Hussein got to be too much for Pachachi (yes, he was a man of principle -- the principle of doing what was best for Adnan Pachachi), and he then lit out for Abu Dhabi, and was promptly given a state salary by Sheikh Zayed. Hired to help with the preparation of the legal brief against Saudi Arabia, Pachachi managed to drop the top-secret brief on the floor of a taxi, where it happened to be discovered by its very author, who was quite dismayed at this lapse, but not surprised. There were reports that, while receiving a salary from Abu Dhabi, Pachachi was simultaneously making overtures to the Saudis to supply them with the Abu Dhabi legal case. As one who knew him well in those days described him, Pachachi is capable, intelligent, and a complete -- here I will leave a demure aposiopesis, like Laurence Sterne describing how he reached for his French mistress. So here is Pachachi, having surfaced in Baghdad by the side of Ambassador Bremer, a serious candidate to be president of Iraq, because he is reported to want American forces to stay on in Iraq. You bet. He wants to milk the United States for whatever further billions he, and his countrymen, can. And he wants American soldiers to stay, not because he has a pro-American bone in his body, not because he intends to drop his violent hostility toward Israel, not because his foreign policy will be a whit distinguishable from that laid down by the Arab League (but perhaps the Kurdish foreign minister can change things), but because he wants the Americans to fight, and die, to protect Sunnis from possible future Shi'a vengeance. For the Americans to mistake what Pachachi is all about, is foolish. Lord Edward Cecil, who served for decades in Cromer's civil service in Egypt, placed as the epigraph to his once-celebrated "Memoirs of an Egyptian Official," the following epigraph, which became something of a talisman among those Englishmen who served in the Near East: "Here lies one who tried to hustle the East." If any tattoo parlor in Washington wants to contribute to the war effort, it need only offer to inscribe that sentence on the chest, the forehead, the palm, of any Washington policymaker -- and for free. That alone would be worth more than all the portentous vaporings of the likes of Anthony Cordesman ("Iraqi expert" this year, "Saudi expert" that year -- Cordesman is a little like Oachachi, constantly reinventing himself, and being taken far more seriously by some, than he warrants).

It would be better to do nothing to diminish ancient resentments as long as they are intra-Islamic. If outsiders pile on (Iran on one side, Saudis and Gulf Arabs on the other), so what? As long as we take care to levelIran's nuclear facilities, and make sure that Syria isn't holding anything back that it has obtained here and there, and if we cease to supply Egypt with any more weaponry, and we use our wiles to build up, in European public opinion, justified alarm over Muslim immigration and what it means for the future of Europe, we will be doing far more than this exercise in reconstructing Iraq can possibly accomplish. American soldiers should not have to endure the paradox of rebuilding the country of people who, in the main, hate them and wish them ill. It is that simple. The truly troglodytic Moqtada al-Sadr, doing his remarkable imitation of Cro-Magnon Man, and his equally demented followers,screaming their flagellant hobson-jobson (in the original sense of that term) as they march black-shirted and black-balaclaved, through the streets of this or that "holy" city, are only extreme examples of the general attitude. In the battle of hearts and minds -- not Iraqi hearts and minds, which cannot be won, but in what should be the battle of Iraqis to win American hearts and minds for all that we have done for them, they have lost that battle completely -- at least among those who are following their quite unattractive, completely ungrateful, and increasingly outragous behavior.
the further away we go, the better.

Does anyone doubt that if all the Westerners were to pull out of Saudi Arabia, that country -- which owes everything it now possesses, including its claim on our attention, not to any ingenuity or industry exhibited by its inhabitants, but to an accident of geology --in their narrative, of course, it was no accident, but a deliberate act of Allah (curious, if Allah was so solcitous, why he left the Arabs with deserts and a rapidly-lowering water table, and gave all the nice bits of land, the places with meadows and forests, and mountains and valleys, and rivers and waterfalls, and all the good things of this earth (except for those oil deposits), to the lands of the Infidels. What was he thinking? What was his point? I am in agreement with Bin Laden. I want the Westerners out, permanently out, of Saudi Arabia. I want heaven and earth to be moved in order to replace Arab and Muslim oil and gas -- though we can continue to buy that oil for as long as we must, keeping carefully in mind that we need do as few favors for the Saudis and other Arabs as we do for our local gas station attendant when he sells us gas at the pump -- that is, none. Even if it hurts, no arms sales, no sales of medicine, no satellite dishes to pick up Al-Jazeera and poison minds, no appliances, no electronic goods, no access to Western universities and especially to training in science that could someday help the eager student to harm his Infidel hosts, nothing. A global village open to all -- all except those whose belief-system makes them immutable opponents of pluralsism, a belief-system that cannot be changed, and that renders its adherents -- Dina et al -- suspect in the eyes of all Infidels, and with reason. For they firmly believe that "Islam is to dominate and not to be dominated." We'd like to oblige you, but No Can Do.

I think I am going to join the NRA.

Posted by: Emily at May 30, 2004 10:16 PM
Me too Emily.

Posted by: Susan at May 30, 2004 10:23 PM

Susan and Emily: http://www.nra.org/

D.C.

Dina, Mahmoud, Muslim Pride:

They can publish all the books they want, give all the speeches they want, create all the websites they want, and go on every single TV show. The religion with Allah is Islam. They won't be able to stop Islam from spreading and entering the hearts of mankind. I'd just like to ask them why people have embraced Islam, especially after 9-11 when all its considered to people like them is a death cult and a satanic religion. After all, why the hell would anybody embrace islam after 9-11 unless they believed it was the truth?

Ahmed: I know people who left Islam after 9-11. Do they count in your calculations? Or are you, like most Muslims, only counting in one direction?

Brother Ahmed:

This kind of website show the level of hatred teached, written and speached in the world against Holy Islam and Muslim brothers and sisters.

Hey Mahmoud let's hang out sometime. I'll bring some beer and pork rinds.

Mahmoud:

What about the hatred you preach against us? The hatred preached against us on practially every page in your holy book?

Do you too, only count in one direction?

Why is it bad when Kaffirs say they hate Islam but a-okay when Muslims screech on and on about how much they hate US?

We don't want you in our countries. Go home. Quit using Kaffir inventions like the Internet and mobile phones and go back to herding sheep and goats.

Oh silly Mamoud,
and Dina who could be a queen
but instead settles for being
worth half a man in her sharia land,
until her end, a slave to the men,
how can your cult
be universal and for all peoples
and all times if you need to read
the evil book in arabic?

Your cult is like a tic
that grows bloated on blood
and makes its host sick.

How can your cult claim
to be the final and best of all cults
when it has dual ethics,
two sets of rules to live by,
you must tell the truth,
except when you lie . . .
rules for you,
and rules for me
and the other Free.

How can your cult be the best
and claim to be monotheistic,
when it must have mo (and his life)
and the angel (with its words)
to be.
So writes the poetess of the Free

I've said it before and I'll say it again,
Muslim Apologists=Jabbering Monkeys.

On the other side, as cruel as it sounds,
28,000 nukes verses 3? or 4?
It's a shame, that this is what these people are pushing towards, activly seeking for this outcome it seems.

It is sad that these people just do not understand that we westerners have free thought and choice and that we really do live by the following words:
"Give me liberty or give me death".
Most Americans would rather burn our own country down, salt the earth to make it uninhabitable, take as many of you with us as we can, than to allow you to have any control or power over us.

With each passing day, the more posts I read here from the "Islamic Front", it makes me more determined than ever to make sure that they aren't successful in becoming dominant.

I copy these posts and send them to the news services, my congressmen and all my friends, plus have sent this to the ministers of the churches in the city I live in.

I thank God everday for people such as Robert Spenser, Daniel Pipes, Steve Emmerson, Stephen Scharwtz, Al Sina, who aren't afraid to speak out and don't fall into the trap of "political correctness" that so many have fallen into and to the other posters here,Bob O, Hugh, the other Susans, Gary, Naresh, etc, I wish I knew all of you on a personal basis, tough, strongminded,not afraid to stand up for our way of life.

Keep up the good work!

"Ahmed: I know people who left Islam after 9-11. Do they count in your calculations? Or are you, like most Muslims, only counting in one direction?"

Susan, this is absolutely ridulous. I know Christians who left the catholic church after the sex scandal. People who leave a religion because its popularity level have no conviction in the first place. You're only a true believer if you hold firm to your convictions, whether popular or not. Are you going to leave christianity too if some christians kill and murder innocent civilians. People embrace islam because it's the truth.

You christians really amaze me at times. You go around preaching love and forgiveness but you and your jewish allies are the ones who are creating all the problems in the world. You preach turning the other cheek but won't hesitate to drop bombs on civilian populations. And for god sakes, is there just one christian who can explain the Trinity without confusing me? You have murdered far more people than any Bin laden ever has.

Hugh, great work. That's the best summary of the wretchedness of Islam I've yet seen.

Ahmed, the answer to your question is in the question itself:

"I'd just like to ask them why people have embraced Islam, especially after 9-11 when all its considered to people like them is a death cult and a satanic religion. After all, why the hell would anybody embrace islam after 9-11 unless they believed it was the truth?"

Obviously, if people embraced Islam, they believed it was the truth. But if they're the kind of people who are impressed by terrorists who crash airplanes into buildings full of civilians, then you're welcome to them. We don't want them.

Infidel23,

If I were judging a religion by its people rather than its core teachings I'd say that christianity is a religion that teaches you to be a drunk, beat your children, cheat on your wife, spend hundreds of dollars on porn, flash the camera for girls gone wild, eat until you are 300 pounds, molest altar boys, get fake breasts, create a tv show where you give plastic surgery to "ugly" people, get married on a TV show, steal money from the congregation, open strip joints, sell crack to kids, drop the A bomb on an entire people, rape innocent Iraqi women (maybe they took a page out of Saddam Husseins guide to POW treatment).

Ahmed

If I were judging a religion by its people rather as well as its core teachings I'd say that islam is a religion that teaches you to disembowel corpses, beat your wife, sleep with infidel prostitutes, have sex with dogs in the belief that it will cure chlamydia, torture small girls by mutilating their genitalia, dance for joy when non-Muslims are murdered, fail to contribute anything of scienfific or artistic value, traffic drugs in order to finance terrorism, decapitate prisoners, etc.

It is amaing that in all these years we have been paying you for oil we could simply have taken from you! Doesn't that speak to our benevolence?

And let's not forget:

...beat burning vehicles with the soles of their shoes, mutilate petty thieves in public, con mentally retarded teenagers into suicide missions, hide behind human shields in combat situations, punish rape victims instead of rapists, kidnap native Sudanese and turn them into slaves...

All this and more, brought to you by the wonderful 'religion' of Islam.

You christians really amaze me at times. You go around preaching love and forgiveness but you and your jewish allies are the ones who are creating all the problems in the world. You preach turning the other cheek but won't hesitate to drop bombs on civilian populations.

Posted by: Ali at May 30, 2004 11:31 PM

What a shocker, a Muslim blaming Christians and Jews for all the world's problems. Weak, cowardly jihadists wear no uniforms, and hide behind women and children in civilian populations. The world knows this, so blame your heroes for being so spineless, inadequate excuses for men.

Mr. Ahmed, your mentioning of the "A bomb" being dropped demonstrates your decade impairment. We don't use the atom bomb anymore. We use smart bombs. You know, the ones that find their way into the caves that Islamic terroists live in. The bombs suffocate the cave dwellers by removing all of the oxygen from their home. Or, "Daisycutters"(my favorite), which destroy scampering jihadis as they scurry for cover..

Another thing, when did Americans rape Iraqi women? I haven't seen that on the new, although I don't waste my time with biased sewage like al Jezeera to get the news.

You clowns ought to give up on your little "world conversion to Islam" crusade. It's never going to happen. Ahmed, how do you know so much about "Girls Gone Wild" ??? I refer you to Infidel 23's 11:50 PM post, which clearly lists the artocities and human rights violations that you sickos consider justified and validated.

The menace of the machete cult will be eliminated, it's only a matter of time. Tick tock, tick tock.....

All this and more, brought to you by the wonderful 'religion' of Islam.

Posted by: Infidel23 at May 31, 2004 12:09 AM

Infidel23.....great listing. You forgot one though. Let us not soon forget the Palestinians and their world famous ROCK THROWING..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/709306.cms

The 'secular' Indian media did not mention the fact that Jihadis asked people's religion before killing them. So, it seems as if it is just a
coincindence that only Indian hindus and Indian christians were killed and Indian muslims escaped unhurt.

No protest has been called against this.

However, almost as a coincidence, Muslims protest against US brutalities.
No mention of Nick Berg.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/709573.cms

I wonder if congress under Sonia Manio Gandhi will again start following the congress 'secularism' of the 80's (read muslim appeasement) when
India banned an excellent literary piece Satanic verses by Indian born author Rudshdie even before Iran.

Hey Ali,

Holy Trinity:

God the Father
God the Son (Jesus)
God the Holy Spirit

Three persons in ONE God.

"To those who believe no explanation is necessary to those who don't believe no explanation is possible."

By the way, don't you know that of all the major conflicts CURRENTLY going on in the world, ALL BUT ONE involve MUSLIMS not getting along with their neighbors?

DCWatson, yes throwing rocks is certainly a great contribution to human culture. Also, there's the quaint custom of stoning adulterers to death. Here's a video of it happening, so everyone can admire the sophisticated approach to morality and justice in the Islamic world:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

Compare that what Jesus said let him who have no sin cast the first stone
and then forgive them father for they not know what they do
it all makes sense to me now

Dina,

Very sad about the 5 year old boy. There are attrocities committed on both sides of the line.
However, I wish you didn't deflect answering my initial questions by bringing up that sad story.

I would very much like to hear your spin on the streaming videos available at MEMRI.org
>>>>Hateful Friday Sermons from Mosques
>>>>Moslem Women's TV program interview with 3 year old Basmallah and her brainwashed hatred story about Jews
>>>>Proud parents talking about their suicide-bombing children
>>>>"Al Shatat" the horrid Syrian-sponsered anti-Semitic TV series airing in Middle East during last year's Ramadan.

(If you don't have streaming video capability on your computer, there are transcripts available for some.)

All very disturbing....

You also haven't answered my question about Taqqiya and kismet.

Thank you.

The information age of this mellinium is the death bell for islam, freedom of thought, endless amounts of information and the ability to exange ideas and debate what is and what isnt is its death-the internet is just the begining, narrow mindedness will disappear with the greater speed of modernity, believe me they are more afraid of the future and what it brings than any weapon we have

Hi Dina - oops, I meant taqqiya and kitman (not kismet)!

to add they are fighting progress and there own convictions more than they are fighting us because the fight is more than us and our religion its a fight against the new century which they cant win, u cant turn back time and force yourself to beahave like your in the middle ages on one hand and yet live in the every changing ever moving forward new century where innovation and freedom of thought is paramount- believe me they have there own demons to fight

What I hate most about Islam is its insistence that everyone must conform to a drab, dull, lifeless, hate-filled sameness. It's like Soviet era communism, but with sand instead of snow. Their vision of the world is not only stomach-turningly repulsive, it's just plain wrong. The diversity of the natural world confirms this, where we can see an abundance of lifeforms that coexist together, and which create a whole greater than the sum of the individual parts. That's the way it was meant to be, and that's why I've had friends who are atheists, agnostics, Jews, Ba'hai, hippies, anarchists, Christians, greens, Hindus, Rastafarians, punks, pagans, Catholics, liberals, African, French, (yes, even French), whatever. But Islam wants to annihilate all this, and reduce life to a sad, empty recipe found in a dusty old book. A book whose hero is a man who molested a nine-year old girl. As someone noted above, this book even tells you what to do in the bathroom. So while we busy ourselves with space exploration and unlocking the mysteries of DNA, or just with having a good time, they want to tell us how to wipe our own backsides. Can you actually believe it? Are they serious? Apparently they are, and they're prepared to kill us for it.

well christianity does teach you to find friends from all backgrounds, all religions, its what jesus himself did-that shows you are strong in your beliefs, you are not afraid of losing your faith as muslims seem to be which explains to desire to make everyone like them so as to not fall under temptation-how very wrong

Everyone, let's stop all the fuss. We are all humans and that is a fact. So why not just help a fellow human out. The only thing blocking us from doing so is goverment policy and wars over religion. Not everyone in America(such as myself)is close minded like some of the posters here speaking hatred.

From my point of view, not practicing religion, but respecting other peoples beliefs, this whole thing is crazy.

United States should pull out of Iraq, Israel should let the palestinians have their own land. If this will create peace, then why not give it a try. From demands that I have read from muhuhjideen or "jihadists" as many refer them to, this is pretty much all they want.

Maybe they don't want our help, and want to prosper on their own. Maybe they don't want democracy forced down their throats as if they were baby birds who can't do things on their own. I can't blame them. (Iraq's)

The whole Iraq war was b.s. anyways. Bush duped the American public and played hopscotch from Afganistan to Iraq and is now saying they received bad intelligence. People are dieing everyday for no reason in Palestine, Israel, Iraq, Afganistan for reasons that can be solved with the right minds controlling the situation. Unfortunately the minds are money hungery politicians.

I don't follow a religion, I'm more of the 'see it to believe it', 'innocent until proven guilty' type but I respect others religion. If everyone in the world had this respect both Westerners and elsewhere, we would be able to live in peace.

Scary thought that there can be an attack on american soil very soon. All I hope is that it doesn't effect me or my loved ones. I support our troops, but I don't support our cause or our president because he is an idiot. He can't even pronounce the name of the prison at the heat of the scandal. The whole Halliburton being the vice presidents ex-company and received a no bid contract. Not only that, but they ended up ripping off the american public and overcharging them sending taxes up higher. Now tell me, why not make this an open contract and have another company, or multiple companies place bids. These companies may not have ripped the americans off. But, in the end, better a Halliburton employee of Dick Chaineys ex-company dieing transfering oil than some local company located around my neighborhood.

I know I have rambled on and on, and some of you were probably just skipping the post, but in the end, we have to make peace and not elect bush. As a matter of fact, we need the whole system changed. Imagine a system where the entire american public can vote on important issues. Rather than a select bunch of members (congress). A poll across the nation would be nice, "should we go to war or not?". "should we let israel handle their own business and not intervene?" See what the public thinks. Mass polls couldn't be done in the past because of low technology so you had to have this central political party. Now with internets and vast networks all americans should be able to have their say. Especially things like stem cell research or gay marriage.

Lets take america back people and leave the eastern world alone and let them conduct their own business. Of course we would still trade, but in the politic sense.

Well, thats all folks, my thoughts on how crazy our world is getting, it makes me depressed.

Peace. Love.!

Another day of incredible postings...

It seems as though the terrorist jihadists are plainly explaining exactly what many of us knew after September 11, 2001 (calling that day"911" only fuels their insanity).

The answer: Maybe some of you remember a post a few weeks ago describing a fictional account of a "Majestic Level 4, 'Above Top Secret', high plasma device" dropped onto the holy city of Mecca? If these terrorist jihadists continue, they will bring that fictional account closer and closer to a foretold destiny. They crave the insanity of nuclear devastation. Why? Why is it that they are pushing us toward their total elimination from this country, their countries, the planet...genocide?

God have mercy on them, for they know not the horror that will be cast upon them.

Dine wrote:

PS-It seems as if no one is capable of responding to my previous post on Yusuf Estes, who as I repeat, was a former priest in christianity, to Paul Findley, who was a member of the congress for 22 years, who wrote, "Silent No More," to Cat Stevens now known as Yusuf Islam, who was former a pop star.

---
Hmm, if I were a betting man, I'd say they all converted because they wanted a few extra wives. I see no other plausible reasons for anyone that has half a brain.

Jon P

"From demands that I have read from muhuhjideen or "jihadists" as many refer them to, this is pretty much all they want."

Unfortunately, they want it all. Check the concept of 'taqqiya', re-read the posts from Muslims above and elsewhere on this site, read the Koran, and look at the history of Islam. Forget about Bush, Kerry, and Nader, they are all irrelevant. The jihad will continue, as it has done for centuries. It will continue after the coalition troops are out of Iraq, and after the 'Palestinians' get their state. It is alive and well in Thailand, the Philipines, Nigeria, Sudan, Kosovo, Kashmir, Afghanistan, France, Spain, Indonesia, Singapore, UK, USA, and everywhere that Muslims live. It is a war fought not only in military terms, with suicide belts and exploding rucksacks, but with relentless propaganda and attempts to infiltrate and subvert existing democratic structures. It will not stop, so our only option is to defend ourselves against it, in any way possible.

Iraq might have been a wrong turn in this attempt to stem the tide of jihad, in which case your desire for withdrawal will come to pass soon enough. But don't ever be fooled by the words of people who openly advocate the murder of novelists and 63 year-old rubber plantation owners.

infidel: "then you don't belong in the USA."
well now, i dont think you are one to say who belongs in america and who doesnt, are you? because if she really wasnt supposed to be here, she would be gone some while ago...

------

You know, last I checked any of my history books, I saw quite a cross-section of who built the United States -- the vast majority were European Christians and Jews, Africans, Chinese, Mexicans and Native Americans. I can not for the life of me find any reference to Muslims anywhere.

I somehow think the descendants of Americans can and will decide who to keep out, and if Islam keeps going in the direction it has been for 1400 years (basically threatening every other culture and religion), well, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Infidel23:

Agreed, so you are saying there is no resolution but to wipe out everyone that thinks in this mannor. This is in fact a solution, but a solution that can NEVER be attained as you say its ideology has spread across the globe.

So what do we do next infidel? We are entering the religious rollercoaster ride of our life, something I don't wish to be a part of.

Converting to Muslim seems like the only answer....Just kidding. Hehe. But all jokes aside, whats next, do we keep killing each other until the end of civilization because thats where we are headed. I just can't wait until Pervez Musharraff no longer has power, then the nukes will start to fly all over the place. Something needs to be done, but it seems nothing can.

what do you think?

Dina, Ahmed, Reza, et al-Outclassed and outgunned again by Hugh who has provided us with an eloquent summary of our present situation and a reasonable possible solution.

I continue to be amazed at posters that refer to "Holy Islam." There is nothing "holy" about an ideology calling itself a religion that officially condones war and murder for its end as well as the subjugation and humiliation of the populations of those that prefer not to adhere to its beliefs.

Fight, fight, fight. War, war, war. Beheadings, mutilations, subjugation, excessive and absurd rituals for every moment of daily existence, GOVERNING every possible impulse, feeling, action, and thought. Nothing but fear, pain and suffering. Soon one becomes numb and gives in to robotic repetition.

Not fit for prime time, take it back to the desert from where it sprung.

Jon P
Gee, if it were only that easy...
these are not rational beings.

Infidel 23
Keep up the good work!

Jon P

I don't wish to be a part of it either, but we have no choice. We don't need to think in terms of wiping out millions of people, but how best to defend ourselves at home, especially politically. The people we need counter first of all are the ones in our own societies who are telling us lies about Islam. The media, the politicians, and so on. The way to do that is 'spread the word' at grass roots level. When you're in the right kind of situation, get your Koran out and show people where the hatred comes from. Most people are amazed to see it, they just assumed that Islam was 'like any other religion.' It isn't, and the sooner we prove that to the people around us, the sooner we'll see the necessary changes in legislation to protect us.

infidel23,
You are so correct.

I just found this site,
But be warned, the pictures are very grusome.
Someone else posted it on their reply, got curious and looked the site up.

To Jon P,
This is the true face of Islam. It's sad but true, I've looked at hundreds of sites hoping to be proven wrong, it doesn't happen.

www.geocities.com/arabracismplusjihad/Cruelty

Or, www.arabracismplusjihad.com-and look the site over, alot of info I hadn't seen before.

Twink

Your granddaughters will go topless on Miami Beach while munching on knishes.

Twink

Your granddaughters will go topless on Miami Beach while munching on knishes.

Mahmoud:

I have news for you. I am learning Arabic. I am determined to be able to understand what you nut cases write and say to each other to protect myself and my civilization. And as far as suggesting that any Westerner not learn Arabic, I encourage every one reading this post to, yes, please, learn Arabic, read the Qur'an in the original; read what Arabic newspapers are saying; listen to what Arabic television and radio newscasters and personalities are saying. Nonsense and hate is still nonsense and hate whether it is in Arabic or English. But at least if we know Arabic, you Muslims can't conceal your hatred and nonsense.

At 7:01 PM May 30, 2004, Dina posted, in part:

"There is not one sheikh or Iman who has converted out of Islam. And for those idiots who did, you know why?"

Sounds like Islamic cult DOUBLESPEAK!

Oh wait, I get it - there was 'not one sheikh . . .'implying more than one, as in 'idiots' - plural. OK, Dina, I'll have to let your superior intellect, though predictably misguided, explain this one.
Yeah, right.

Islam is a result of what happens when a "religion" is merely invented. Where the pagan moon god is recreated in a man's image (a'la Mohamed).

As long as there is a "land of the free", you moslems will not have world domination!!

Hugh:

Do you work for a Think Tank that is advising the current administration? If not, could you begin the application process right away? ;-)
(Actually, I'm quite serious about that!)

D.C.:

I adore Daisycutters myself, but there's something about the appeal of a MOAB on a bright, sunny day ...

The "rape of the Iraqui women" issue is this: Arab news channels were broadcasting images of Iraqui women being "raped" along with the Abu Ghraib photos. These images were actually obtained from a porn video and included with the bona fide photos. Later the media was forced to admit that the "rape" images were not authentic. (What are Muslims doing watching porn, anyway? Isn't that against their "religion"?)

Jon P.:

Respectfully, I think you need to educate yourself a little further on the extent of the Islamic Threat. Read Robert Spencer's books, read Ibn Warraq, then come back and we'll talk.

Susan B:

"Most Americans would rather burn our own country down, salt the earth to make it uninhabitable, take as many of you with us as we can, than to allow you to have any control or power over us."

That is the LEAST we would do ... There's a lot more we can do first, but as the last resort - AMEN!

test

Much of the raping on video along with other set-ups was, like it was posted earlier, taken from a porn site. It was also reported that these lies were presented to the media by the "Nation of Islam".......

Twinkie said: Don't misquote Holy Islam with false out-of-the-context messages . Let people Read Holy Koran in its true words and language by themselves and then choose if they need your assistance.

Posted by: Mahmoud at May 30, 2004 10:32 PM

OK, hotshot, the floor is yours....Please explain to us, especially the women posters here Qur'an verse 4.34 7) "...and beat them"

(Allâh has said, 'and beat them' (wa-Driboohunna) as an order from Allâh that the husband should begin by edifying the woman firstly, then he should abstain from her, then if none of that proves useful then to beat...and 'beat' (darb)

Further proof that assault and battery is not illegal in accordance with sharia law.

After you explain this, we'll find more for you to dance around.

Mahmoud:

"Since i spend most of my day praying and reading Holy Koran, there are not so much other books in my wish list."

Seems to me you are spending most of your day reading and posting at Jihad Watch. Remember, associating with infidels in any way will just draw you further into our web, no matter how you try to resist ... I can see it happening already.

Soldier of Christ or anyone else:

How do you give someone the "evil eye" in Arab/Muslim culture? I'd like to learn some new international hand symbols.

“ You try to sound so nice and reasonable but your religion is full of murder and destruction.”
Back up your statement from the Quran and Hadith.
Posted by Dina at May 30, 2004 08:41 PM

Forgive me 'Smitty' for weighing in on one of your dialogues, I hope you don't mind if I respond to Dinas challenge?

Ok Dina, Islam is full of murder and destruction.
And heres the Qur'an/Ahadith references to back up that fact;

Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”

Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”

Bukhari:V4B52N256 “The Prophet passed by and was asked whether it was permissible to attack infidels at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, ‘Their women and children are from them.’”

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an 48:27 “If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Bukhari:V1B1N6 “Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.”

Bukhari:V1B11N626 “The Prophet said, ‘No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr. If they knew the reward they would come to (the mosque) even if they had to crawl. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.’”

Please Dina, just to forwarn you, if you accuse me of taking these 'out of context' I shall not reply to your post.
The Qur'an isn't in any context, neither are the Ahadith, and personally, I tire of that accusation and so refuse to respond to it anymore.

Regards,
kc

Dina;

Whilst I'm 'online' whats with the infatuation regarding those people, one of which a 'supposed' Christian, converting to Islam??

Some people from all religions have been known to convert to a different one.
It is not an indicator of truth.

You say you haven't heard of a Muslim cleric convert to Christianity?
Well here's one for you.

He's also written two good books, you might want to read them. You can get them here.

Regards,
kc

The book page won't work as a link for some reason..
Try here;
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dblended%26field-keywords%3Dmark%252520gabriel%26store-name%3Dall-product-search/002-9656335-2104832

Regards,
kc

Hey Mentat -

I agree, I'm learning Arabic myself to better understand these people. I work with some Arabic-speaking Muslims and when they found out I understand some Arabic, they seem to be more aware of my presence and not speak it so openly as before. My original intention was to learn it for travel to Egypt to see the pyramids, the Nile, etc. but now it is to educate myself more on this growing Jihad threat Americans are facing. Knowledge is power. Thanks for the great post.

kc:

If you recall from the Berg post, the Muslims claim that Mark Gabriel does not exist, and that a "Jew" was paid to pose as the supposed apostate. Never mind that he speaks IN PUBLIC, appears on TV and publishes. They just have no effective counter-arguments to his, so they pretend he doesn't even exist. Now THERE'S sophisticated Muslim reasoning ability for you!

KC, (responding to Dina):
"The Qur'an isn't in any context, neither are the Ahadith, and personally, I tire of that accusation and so refuse to respond to it anymore."

I am no expert in the Quran, but have learned enough to understand the Islamic "Law of Abrogation" which means that the later law cancels the previous law or edict. So with all the contradictions found in either the Quran or Sudith, Hadith, etc. -- apparently the later the law was written, the more relevant it is considered in the Islamic faith. So the question we need an answer to is: "Are the more violent, hate-filled passages later or earlier than the merciful, peaceful ones?" to learn the truth.

This same "Law of Abrogation" gives the Muslim the foundation for their "truth" -- that because Mohammed (as "last" prophet) came after the Old & New Testament prophets, that this one must be true. It all rests on this Law, that's my understanding, anyway.

With apologies to Rodgers and Hammerstein.

Please sing this to the Sound of Music tune, "How do you solve a problem like Maria".

He gets Zakat for free and buys an RPG
He hasn’t much upstairs
He murders on his way to Mosque
And kills infidels everywhere
And underneath his turban
He has C4 in his hair
I even heard him say we all should die

He always runs from US soldiers
But his cowardice is real
He always runs from US everything
Except to murder, rape and steal
I hate to have to say it
But I very firmly feel
Osama’s not an asset to the Umma

I’d like to say a word in his behalf
Osama makes me laugh

How do you solve a problem like Osama?
How do you catch a rifle round and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Osama?
A megalomaniac. A fascist. A clown!

Many a thing you know you’d like to tell him.
Many a thing he ought to understand.
But how do make him stay
And listen to all you say
How do you find a nut in Afghanistan?

Oh, how do you solve a problem like Osama?
How do you hold a moonbat in your hand?

When I’m with him I’m confused
Out of focus and bemused
And I never know exactly where I am
Unpredictable as weather
He’s as flighty as a feather
He’s an a**hole! He is Satan. He’s in a jam.

He’d outpester any pest
Drive a hornet from its nest
He is a whirling dervish out of whirl
He is mental! He’s reviled.
He’s a nutcase. He’s a jinn.
He’s a turd!

How do you solve a problem like Osama?
How do you catch a rifle round and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Osama?
A megalomaniac. A fascist. A clown!

Many a thing you know you’d like to tell him.
Many a thing he ought to understand.
But how do you make him stay
And listen to all you say
How do you find a nut in Afghanistan?

Oh, how do you solve a problem like Osama?
How do you hold a moonbat in your hand?

Written by Mentat

Please feel free to distribute it as widely as possible.

CGW;
I know my friend, - sad & unbelievable isn't it?

Daughter of the patriots;
Yes I'm familiar with the law of abrogation (or the 'law of how Muhammed got himself out of his contradictions')
But don't worry the verses I quoted were all 'revelations' Muhammed 'received' in his latter years in Medina, thus cancelling out the few peaceful verses there are.
Infact Sura 8:39 was the last 'revelation' Muhammed 'received' regarding Jihad (which, just looking, I didn't print for some reason)
So heres that one aswell;

"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do"

Regards,
kc

People on this board who say radical Muslim's idealogy is bad or wrong but then themselves believe in a god or any god are just as bad and as wrong.

They "truely" believe the same way you do in your god so who is to say who is right.

The people can see that science is behind the creation of life is the day that people will stop fighting. This will never happen, at least in our lifetime.

The whole fact that homeosexuals are told that they can't receive communion should disprove the whole Catholic religion right there. Why? What higher power if he truly cared about his followers would place such a demand on his followers. Wouldn't he choose to love them instead?

Religion is way out of control. I'm glad I don't have religion in my life.

I can just picture ancient Egyptian saying to his entire village, "I am going to prove to Rah I love him so much, I will stare at him longer than any man." The man comes back 2 days later blinded by staring at the sunlight. He then delcares that Rah, the sun god loves him more than anyone because he has made him blind. Does anyone follow this analogy?

Jon~ Sorry, I can't see it :P

Truth to tell, Jon- those of us here of other faiths are not trying to Kill the rest of the world, nor do we intend to.

As for homosexuals, it (can be)read 'Love the sinner, hate the sin.' Of course there is the whole argument whether it is part of nature or chosen. I only ask one question in that case: if it is Natural, why do people try to Recruit for it? You either are or are not.

As for myself- I believe evolution is Part of God's plan for things. In which case homosexuality may serve a purpose... long story, no time.

(KC's response to daughter of the patriots):
"Yes I'm familiar with the law of abrogation (or the 'law of how Muhammed got himself out of his contradictions')"

Yes, but by that same thinking he set up another problem that had to be fixed another way. If that which comes after is more important than that which came before, then anything that comes after me can be considered to be superior to myself. Hence, he needed to stop that by nipping it in the bud and saying - there is no one who comes after me... I have the full and final truth.

But why would one believe such a thing if one establishes and advocates the idea of "progressive revelation?" It seems pretty disingenous (and self serving) to me that Muhammed could propagate such nonsense. You have to somehow put your brain on hold and believe that it all stops somewhere and that somewhere is HERE (not there, but here). Other religions and false prophets have advocated the same tripe and people are more than willing to believe it.

Besides, what are we saying about G-d when we believe such nonsense? Can't G-d get it right the first time? Can't He simply make it all clear - the transmission, etc. - without creating the need for their to be more and more clarity as time goes on, because the stupid humans who recieved the initial message couldn't "get it?" That sort of G-d can't be a very adept one can He? This is much more of a tactic of apologetics than saying anything about G-d's ability to convey a message.

More than likely, Muhammed, as an illiterate man, found himself in some hot water when he tried to argue with others who knew more about their monotheistic faiths (from which he based most of his initial ideas) and found his understanding was incorrect; but, in typical Arab fashion, he could not admit to the shame of this humiliation and had to reestablish his honor by telling the practitioners of Judaism and Christianity that it was not he that was wrong, but they. They had to accept his version of the truth or they would be judged by Allah. (Which later on turned into the judgement of he and his followers by the sword.) They did not accept his views and he became more and more entrenched in his position (pride) and eventually turned against them. At least that is the way I see it.

What a great day for comments! Thanks everybody.

Mike H

Great post Paula.
The guys at 'Debate.org' have written a great paper dealing with this topic. You can find it here.

Regards,
kc.

Jon P wrote:

"People on this board who say radical Muslim's idealogy is bad or wrong but then themselves believe in a god or any god are just as bad and as wrong."

Yes those who believe in God are in wrong, by reasonable standards of evidence. The problem with muslims is that they follow a prophet that was more wicked than most of the others. There is also today a lot more violence advocated against unbelievers by muslims than by followers of other religions.

Other religions seem more able to change and adapt to the modern world.

As a bonus for all believers in God(s) I have some Q's for you to reflect on:

Why did God create so many sorts of beetles?

Why does God seems so fond of empty space?

Why cant God be clearer so that more people worship him?

Why didnt your God send prophets to China in say 2000 BC? Seems he missed a lot o people.

Why are God so quiet about Quantum Physics when describing the universe?

Why did God create so many sorts of beetles?

To keep scientists employed.

Why does God seem so fond of empty space

Because most people need something between their ears to keep the vacuum from sucking in their eyeballs.

Why can’t God be clearer so that more people worship him?

It’s called faith, not blind obedience

Why didn’t your God send prophets to China in 2000 BC?

He said love your neighbor, not dominate or subjugate them. He also knew the apostles didn’t like mu shu pork.

Why is God so quiet about Quantum Physics when describing the universe?

Have you ever tried to explain quarks to a caveman?

Curious,

Religions are a matter of faith. You try to take your perceptions of the very few scientific principles we know to be true (most are called “theories”) and interpret them to mean what you want them to mean, which in your case, seems to be agnosticism.

While it may seem silly to you, a lot of the inability of man to figure out why things work, leads me to believe that something much more powerful than a series of random accidents shapes the world we are in. Running concurrently with that idea, is that an expanding body of scientific data does seem to support at least some biblical events or ideas, from the parting of the Red Sea, to the flood of Moses.

But it really comes down to faith. Unfortunately, while faith can be used to comfort, it can also be twisted to oppress those who don’t believe the same as someone else. Islam is just perhaps the best know and widely known modern example of the faith of one group being twisted into the hatred of all others.

test

I noticed that after Raisin and Twinkie were asked to explain a quote from the Koran, they stopped posting......hmmmm, what a surprise that is.

A question asked by one of the readers of Dina was, "when in history has islame ever provided santuary for a Christian". I have a question for Dina. When has any country of muslime majority ever provided sancuary for those of their own religion? For that matter when has any arab country pitched in to help any other muslim in need. While the war raged on in the the former Czhech republic and muslims were being murdered by the hundreds of thousands what, were those arab folks doing to help their fellow muslims?
Probably selling oil to the so called christians doing the slaughter. The problem I see is that arabs are out for profit. If they can't screw outsiders thewill screw each other. That mind set goes for killing as well. If the muslims did not have the infidels to hate and kill they would turn on each other as they always have. Greed and a primitive ignorance are a dangerous combination.
Sharkey

I find it very interesting that some people from both sides of this debate are going back and forth with their versions of the "truth." The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as truth. No two people--no matter how similar or dissimilar their backgrounds are--can look at an event and see exactly the same thing.

The entire basis of this conflict between Muslims and non-muslims are their differing accounts of who God is. This is the same case between Catholics, Buddhists, Wiccans, Muslims, Atheists and Protestants... The list goes on. We all live in the same world, yet have such contrasting opinions as to who--or what is the powerful force behind its workings. Never make the dangerous assumption that your religion is the one true religion. Never make the assumption that your beliefs or your religion is infalliable. Every religious text was an account of God WAS WRITTEN BY MAN. Your religions are taught by MAN, and you are not infalliable. Only God is. You cannot--no matter how enlightened you are--even presume to understand the true nature of God, nor can you fully understand what his intentions are for you.

Yes, he has spoken to us through many prophets, and with each prophet, his message was different with each of them. Even when Christ was on Earth, he spoke mostly in parables. Has this not occurred to anyone that perhaps there was a reason for this? God could have come down from the heavens and given us an exact text of exactly what was right, and what was wrong. He could have given us volumes upon volumes of instructions, and yet we would still people debating every word or every paragraph. Why? Because this is not a world of absolutes. Because life is not black and white, it is simply shades of gray. And no matter what, there will always be an exception to the rules.

Through each of his prophets, though, there was one overriding theme contained within each of his texts. Love. Respect. Forgiveness. And Tolerance.

Perhaps it's time that the people of God (and I am one of them--make no mistake, I am not some Atheist or Agnostic getting up on a soapbox here) agree to disagree, and live their own lives as they choose to, and not push their beliefs on to those who are either not willing or not ready to hear.

We're all worshipping the same God here. Most Muslims do not believe in taking up arms against Christians, and most Christians do not believe in taking up arms against Muslims. We're at the point in this so-called "holy war" where reason and tolerance have been replaced by hate and contempt. Each side is taking the events of a few extremists, and turning it into their world view of the other.

The basis of this "holy war" is that extremists on each side seem to believe that their system of beliefs is the one and only system, and they refuse to even consider the validity of someone elses' differing views.

To some people, that is a frightening concept. To many, that idea is so frightening, that they are willing to take up arms agains one another just to prove to themselves that they are right.

The bottom line to this thread is that the enemy is not Islam, and it is not Christianity. It's intolerance, hate, fear, and the horrible atrocities that people are willing to carry out in order to preserve their own perverted world view.

God had such a good idea, but we all had to go and screw it up, just as we've done with everything else he's given us. The really sick part is that people have the audacity to carry out these atrocities and acts of cowardice and then hide behind the notion that they are carrying out God's will.

I find it very interesting that some people from both sides of this debate are going back and forth with their versions of the "truth." The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as truth. No two people--no matter how similar or dissimilar their backgrounds are--can look at an event and see exactly the same thing.

The entire basis of this conflict between Muslims and non-muslims are their differing accounts of who God is. This is the same case between Catholics, Buddhists, Wiccans, Muslims, Atheists and Protestants... The list goes on. We all live in the same world, yet have such contrasting opinions as to who--or what is the powerful force behind its workings. Never make the dangerous assumption that your religion is the one true religion. Never make the assumption that your beliefs or your religion is infalliable. Every religious text was an account of God WAS WRITTEN BY MAN. Your religions are taught by MAN, and you are not infalliable. Only God is. You cannot--no matter how enlightened you are--even presume to understand the true nature of God, nor can you fully understand what his intentions are for you.

Yes, he has spoken to us through many prophets, and with each prophet, his message was different with each of them. Even when Christ was on Earth, he spoke mostly in parables. Has this not occurred to anyone that perhaps there was a reason for this? God could have come down from the heavens and given us an exact text of exactly what was right, and what was wrong. He could have given us volumes upon volumes of instructions, and yet we would still people debating every word or every paragraph. Why? Because this is not a world of absolutes. Because life is not black and white, it is simply shades of gray. And no matter what, there will always be an exception to the rules.

Through each of his prophets, though, there was one overriding theme contained within each of his texts. Love. Respect. Forgiveness. And Tolerance.

Perhaps it's time that the people of God (and I am one of them--make no mistake, I am not some Atheist or Agnostic getting up on a soapbox here) agree to disagree, and live their own lives as they choose to, and not push their beliefs on to those who are either not willing or not ready to hear.

We're all worshipping the same God here. Most Muslims do not believe in taking up arms against Christians, and most Christians do not believe in taking up arms against Muslims. We're at the point in this so-called "holy war" where reason and tolerance have been replaced by hate and contempt. Each side is taking the events of a few extremists, and turning it into their world view of the other.

The basis of this "holy war" is that extremists on each side seem to believe that their system of beliefs is the one and only system, and they refuse to even consider the validity of someone elses' differing views.

To some people, that is a frightening concept. To many, that idea is so frightening, that they are willing to take up arms agains one another just to prove to themselves that they are right.

The bottom line to this thread is that the enemy is not Islam, and it is not Christianity. It's intolerance, hate, fear, and the horrible atrocities that people are willing to carry out in order to preserve their own perverted world view.

God had such a good idea, but we all had to go and screw it up, just as we've done with everything else he's given us. The really sick part is that people have the audacity to carry out these atrocities and acts of cowardice and then hide behind the notion that they are carrying out God's will.

I really don't give a rats *ss whether Mammoud's English is perfect... for crying out loud... I don't think I'll be interested in how he says kill the infidels... no rather.... that he and others are willing to do it....

If you want to know what is really going on ... learn Arabic... you'll get the shock of your lifetime when you hear what they say in the chatrooms etc. I love it when the anglo girl is just hanging out and they start up in Arabic... never a clue that I know every word they say...

we can play the game too...

Aldous,

The only thing that irks me more than the self-serving tripe of the islamofascists and their apologists, is the mealy-mouthed, pseudo-intellectual rationalized bullshit coming from mewling ignorant babes-in-the-wood such as yourself.

We are NOT debating versions of the truth here. Twenty-nine hundred people died on September 11, 2001 as the direct result of militant Islamic action. That is truth.

So take your sophomoric, holier-than-thou generalizations on religion, roll them up in a few pages from The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, and light it with a match struck on Noam Chomsky's lily-white liberal arse.

Have you learned anything here?

We are not anywhere near worshiping the same God or coming from the same root. Quit trying to foist your theological beliefs onto that of other religions, especially religions that could give a damn about your inane philosophy as they hack through your jugular with a dull machete.

Save your speech for when the Islamists come for you, and see what good it does. Myself, I stand with the words of George S. Patton.

“No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his.”

Grow up son. You should have finished spouting idealist crap like that in freshman comp.

Mahmoud, some of us continue to take a chance on our own religion. After all, man has a moral obligation to accept the truth. That has been universally agreed by all prior to the time a few post-modern airheads arose to deny the very existence of truth. If I confess something when convinced of its untruth, I fear I will dishonor God, whose Word is Truth.

The Muslims say that the Christians and Jews falsified the Scriptures, but cannot explain why the Christians and Jews of old, who did not cooperate, read the same 39 books of the Old Testament; while the Armenians, Greeks, Syriacs, and Westerners, who likewise did not cooperate, read the same 27 New Testament books as well. To me, the similarity of the Old and New Testaments across the boundaries of various nations and sects--and of the Old Testament across the boundary between those who confess Jesus as Messiah and those who don't--is a powerful witness to its integrity, and the hold of its author, the Holy Spirit, over the readers and copyists of the age before printing.

Further, it is with great pain and sadness that I must conclude that I can recognize neither Christianity nor Judaism in what Muhammad says about these religions in the Qu'ran.

Muhammad, in the Qu'ran, accuses the Christians of "Deifying" Jesus and Mary, and seems to think the Trinity of Christian theology is the Father, Jesus, and Mary (Qu'ran 5:116). Yet the Christian Trinity is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)--and are hypostases sharing the same essence, not separate "gods". Even the Roman and Byzantine churches, which encourage prayer to Mary, admit she is only a human creature (and we Evangelical Christians would polemically pounce on them if they deified her, I assure you!)

Muhammad accuses the Jews of making 'Uzair (Ezra?) the "son" of God. Well, I lived among Jews most of my life (and, if, as certain nasty books state, they use the blood of non-Jewish children to make matzos, they sure missed many a chance to use mine!), read their books, and argued theology with them (politely and respectfully, I hope--as I hope I am being respectful with you), but I NEVER heard or read them call anyone "the son of God"!

For the moment, I'll concede that perhaps the Arab commentators are right when they say that Mary mother of Jesus being the "sister" of Aaron (Qu'ran 19:28) means only "distan kin". Some Maronites, Copts, Syriacs, and other Christians who know Arabic will tell me I shouldn't, but I do not know Arabic.

Muslims continue to speak of Isa al-Masih--obviously a derivative of the name and title Yeshua ha-M'schiach (Iesous Christos in Greek). This is a confession that Jesus is anointed (m'shiach) by God. Muhammad, however, is not.

Also, is not the body of Muhammad lying in a grave in Madinah, awaiting the last judgment with the rest of the dead; and,should the Lord tarry, all of us one day will? Yet Jesus, body and soul, is risen and in heaven. Who is the greater? Of whom can it be said that he has come back to tell us?

First of all Kirk,
Your question was extremely disgusting, and what the hell does this have to do with Islam?

Kepha:
"Also, is not the body of Muhammad lying in a grave in Madinah, awaiting the last judgment with the rest of the dead; and,should the Lord tarry, all of us one day will? Yet Jesus, body and soul, is risen and in heaven. Who is the greater? Of whom can it be said that he has come back to tell us?"
Both Muhammad and Jesus were human beings. Just because one rises to heaven, and the other is lying dead in a grave, does not make anyone special. We, the Muslims, believe that Jesus a.k.a. Isa, is still living with Allah, and when his time comes, he will come down. As for Muhammad, he is dead, just as Isa will soon be. Just as any human being will soon be. And then a time will come, when our souls will be taken out, and we will be judged for every action we perform, for every minute, second that passes.

Salams,
Dina

i have one comment to all of you\
do you all have lives
because really it seems like all of you just sit their on your computer and just live to post comments

question why does all of this matter people are starving and dying as we speak be they muslim jewish or christian who cares what race culture or religion they come from or are does it really matter all that much how about you guys and gals use your energy for something just a bit more usefull or is that all of you are afraid of helping everyone out
is that why you come here
is it an inborn fear that prevents you from doing somehting that will help others and keeps you at your computers sitting their preaching hate to others

Sam,

yeah. whatever.

Dina,

"Just because one rises to heaven, and the other is lying dead in a grave, does not make anyone special."

Man, that is the best laugh I've had all day...

Bob Owens:
I'm glad you thought it was funny, because compared to what Kepha wrote, its nothing. Hey, well it does sound funny, but still. I was trying to make a point. Just because Jesus is in heaven doesn't mean he's any better then Muhammad whos dead.

Salams,
Dina

so you guys just sit their all day waiting for a reply to and article so u can bull it wow that is so interesting

Sam
"i have one comment to all of you"
First of all, that wasn' one comment, there were several of them.

"do you all have lives
because really it seems like all of you just sit their on your computer and just live to post comments"

Yes, sam, I have a life, and that life is based on Islam, and what it requires me to do. And, one of the many things it requires for true Muslims around the world is to make Dawah to people. That is partially what I am doing now. I try to clarify the invalid statements people spread on this website about Islam, because it is wrong, and I dont want people with negative views concerning Islam. It is up to them whether they want to convert or not, but all that matters to me is that they dont judge our religion based on a group of nominal followers, just as their dearest president said in response to the harrassment of the Iraqi prisoners. "The behavior of the soldiers in Iraq does not reflect the nature of the US."

Salams,
Dina

i donno what to do anymore mom and dad keep fighting they want me to become an athiest and i refuse
i need some religious piece would someone direct me to something
i feel empty i used to be a catholic
but then mom converted to athiesm since she wanted a divorce and then daddymoved away
i need some guidance would someone tell me where to go i think i need help

Sam:
I know how you feel. I have known people who's parents have divorced a while ago, and their children are completely lost. Sam, I can help you, but it wholly depends on your will. I think that the best way for you to figure out which religion seems good for you, is for you to go and actually study them on your own with the aid of some friends. Insha allah, I will post some comments regarding Islam, and I am sure, that some other people will preach Christianity to you. I think you should get a Quran (found in mosques, or Islamic bookstores), and read the english transaltion on your own. Whatever questions you have regarding Islam, I'll try my best to answer. Just remember, there is always God, who will help you if you truly believe in him.

Salams,
Dina

Dina:

all that matters to me is that they dont judge our religion based on a group of nominal followers

If that is truly what you believe, then you're wasting your time here. You need to be doing something about those "nominal followers," as you call them. Oddly enough, the majority of Islamic scholars call people like YOU "nominal followers," though.

I wonder who's right?

as their dearest president said in response to the harrassment of the Iraqi prisoners. "The behavior of the soldiers in Iraq does not reflect the nature of the US."

Our president said no such thing. What he said was that the behavior of the HANDFUL OF SOLDIERS INVOLVED in the so-called abuse of those prisoners doesn't reflect the nature of the US.

The behavior of the rest of the 135,000 soldiers who are helping to repair the damage caused by 35 years of Saddam's neglect ABSOLUTELY reflects the nature of the US.

Dina:

sam is just messing with you; he's not being sincere. He's just trying to see what he can stir up on both sides.

BTW, aren't you an American? Isn't he your president, too?

Lobo:
"The behavior of the rest of the 135,000 soldiers who are helping to repair the damage caused by 35 years of Saddam's neglect ABSOLUTELY reflects the nature of the US."
You know, I can start acting like you and say no. I could behave the same way YOU are behaving towards Islam. I could say, the behavior of those soldiers who did abuse those prisoners, does reflect the nature of US. However, I will not. Because first of all, Islam does not allow this. Second of all, that is not in my nature. Third of all, that isn't fair, and I have been living in America for quite a while, and not all the people in America are like that.
See, you dont want me or others to believe that that actions of those particular soldiers does not reflect the nature of US. Because those were only 'a handful.' And all I'm asking you to do is the same. Just as you dont like it when people judge America based on those soldiers, I don't like it when people judge Islam based on some people who dont even follow it the way it should be.
In addition, I know that those soldiers in America do not relfect US, but what about those people who only get to see those particular soldiers during war? Obviously they wont have a pretty good image on America, only because they have seen it through the eyes of those soldiers.

Think about it.
Salams,
dina

Sam:
As a Muslim i obviously know that Islam is teh best religion to choose. and i wil give you proof as to why it is. The holy book of Islam- the Quran has not changed since it came to the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) over 1400's years ago. Unlike the Bible that has over 1400 versions of it. Also if Jesus is a god then how come the christians belive he is died. Isnt a God Almighty and Powerful. We Muslims belive in Jesus but he is a prophet sent by God to bring them to the rigth path.

Also to Lobo 91...America is NOT trying to repair the damage in Iraq belive me if they were then there wouldnt be thousands of people Muslim and non Muslim who are against this war. And lets say the US is trying to repair the damage in Iraq then why would they need to take many people as prisoners and abuse them and do things to them that are so cruel its unimaginable. and the REALLLL AND ONLY REASON that America wen into Iraq qas for the oil not to repair the damage or save the citizens. Besides what does America have to do with Iraq....Iraq is a Muslim Arab country...what America has there is a war to get oil not to help Iraq. I am an American and I do not hate my country, but what America is doing to Iraq is wrong

CGW:
"BTW, aren't you an American? Isn't he your president, too?"

Yes, CGW, I am a American. But my first priority is my religion, Islam. And yes, he is my president. But that does not mean that I must be proud of him also. But that does not mean thatI should always back him up with every action he takes and every move he makes. I'm sorry to say, but what he's doing isn't something to be proud of. Here's an email I got from one of my friends.

Dad .. what's a terrorist?
by David Campbell

Surely even a child can understand the difference between good and evil.

Child: Dad ... what's a terrorist?

Dad: Well, according to the Oxford dictionary a terrorist is "a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". Which means that terrorists are very bad men and women who frighten ordinary people like us, and sometimes even kill them.

Child: Why do they kill them?

Dad: Because they hate them or their country. It's hard to explain ... it's just the way things are. For many different reasons a lot of people in our world are full of hate.

Child: Like the ones in Iraq who are capturing people and saying that they'll kill them if all the soldiers don't leave?

Dad: Exactly! That's an evil thing called "blackmail". Those innocent people are hostages, and the terrorists are saying that if governments don't do what they want the hostages will be killed.

Child: So was it blackmail when we said we'd attack Iraq and kill innocent people unless they told us where all their weapons were?

Dad: No! Well ... yes, I suppose. In a way. But that was an "ultimatum" ... call it "good blackmail.

Child: Good blackmail? What's that?

Dad: That's when it's done for good reasons. Those weapons were very dangerous and could have hurt a lot of people all over the world. It was very important to find them and destroy them.

Child: But Dad ... there weren't any weapons.

Dad: True. We know that now. But we didn't at the time. We thought there were.

Child: So was killing all those innocent people in Iraq a mistake?

Dad: No. It was a tragedy, but we also saved a lot of lives. You see, we had to stop a very cruel man called Saddam Hussein from killing a great many ordinary Iraqi people. Saddam Hussein stayed in power by giving orders that meant thousands of people died or were horribly injured. Mothers and fathers. Even children.

Child: Like that boy I saw on TV? The one who had his arms blown off by a bomb?

Dad: Yes ... just like him.

Child: But we did that. Does that mean our leaders are terrorists?

Dad: Good heavens, no! Whatever gave you that idea? That was just an accident. Unfortunately, innocent people get hurt in a war. You can't expect anything else when you drop bombs on cities. Nobody wants it to happen ... it's just the way things are.

Child:So in a war only soldiers are supposed to get killed?

Dad: Well, soldiers are trained to fight for their country. It's their job, and they're very brave. They know that war is dangerous and that they might be killed. As soon as they put on a uniform they become a target.

Child: What uniforms do terrorists wear?

Dad: That's just the problem ... they don't! We can't tell them apart from the civilians. We don't know who we're fighting. And that's why so many innocent people are getting killed ... the terrorists don't follow the rules of war.

Child: War has rules?

DAd: Oh, yes. Soldiers must wear uniforms. And you can't just suddenly attack someone unless they do something to you first. Then you can defend yourself.

Child: So that's why we attacked Iraq? Because Iraq attacked us first and we were just defending ourselves?

Dad: Not exactly. Iraq didn't attack us ... but it might have. We decided to get in first. Just in case Iraq used those weapons we were talking about.

Child: The ones they didn't have? So we broke the rules of war?

Dad: Technically speaking, yes. But ...

Child: So if we broke the rules first, why isn't it OK for those people in Iraq who aren't wearing uniforms to break the rules?

Dad: Well, that's different. We were doing the right thing when we broke the rules.

Child:But Dad ... how do we know we were doing the right thing?

Dad: Our leaders ... Bush and Blair and Howard ... they told us it was the right thing. And if they don't know, who does? They say that something had to be done to make Iraq a better place.

Child: Is it a better place?

Dad: I suppose so, but I don't know for sure. Innocent people are still being killed and these kidnappings are terrible things. I feel very sorry for the families of those poor hostages, but we simply can't give in to terrorists. We must stand firm.

Child: Would you say that if I was captured by terrorists?

Dad: Uh ... yes ... no ... I mean, it's very difficult ...

Child: So you'd let me be killed? Don't you love me?

Dad: Of course! I love you very much. It's just that it's a very complicated issue and I don't know what I'd do ...

Child: Well, if somebody attacked us and bombed our house and killed you and Mum and Jamie I know what I'd do.

Dad: What?

Child: I'd find out who did it and kill them. Any way I could. I'd hate them for ever and ever. And then I'd get in a plane and bomb their cities.

Child: But ... but ... you'd kill a lot of innocent people.

Dad: I know. But it's war, Dad. And that's just the way things are. Remember?

David Campbell is a Melbourne writer

Dina:

You dont want me or others to believe that that actions of those particular soldiers does not reflect the nature of US. Because those were only 'a handful.' And all I'm asking you to do is the same.

There's one critical difference, though: What I said about those soldiers is true.

What you said about Islam is false.

We know all about the Islamic doctrine of taqiyya, you know.

Muslim:

America is NOT trying to repair the damage in Iraq belive me if they were then there wouldnt be thousands of people Muslim and non Muslim who are against this war.

Of course there would be, as long as there are people like you, the DNC, and the majority of the American media around to spread lies about what we're doing.

And lets say the US is trying to repair the damage in Iraq then why would they need to take many people as prisoners

Because those "many people" were involved in attacks against both Coalition forces and innocent Iraqi civilians. I realize that YOU don't see anything wrong with that, but not everyone shares your myopic view.

...and abuse them and do things to them that are so cruel its unimaginable.

First of all, nobody "needed" to abuse any prisoners. Those who were involved will be tried and punished, if convicted.

As for the treatment of those prisoners being "so cruel its unimaginable," you obviously don't have much of an imagination (or haven't read much about what Saddam did in that very same prison). Personally, I think feeding political prisoners into a plastic shredder feet-first ranks a bit higher on the cruelty index than making them wear women's underwear, but that's just me.

the REALLLL AND ONLY REASON that America wen into Iraq qas for the oil

No post from a member of the ignorati would be complete without THIS tired line, now would it?

It's probably escaped your notice, but we got more oil from Iraq BEFORE the war than we do now, or will for the forseeable future.

Just out of curiosity, how much oil do you think we could have BOUGHT from Iraq for the $150 billion or so we've spent there so far?

"There's one critical difference, though: What I said about those soldiers is true."
I can say no, and I can say I dont believe you. And thousands of countries out there only get the negative image, Lobo, only because they see Americans during war. What else can they possibly percieve?
"What you said about Islam is false."
I can't believe. You still insist on doing this. what do you mean what I am saying about Islam is false? How? I have been a muslim since I was born, I have been taught Islam in a private school all my life, and you, You have not been taught it, but you judge it according to those 'handful' of nominal followers. You continue to judge it through the biased opinions of others. You're telling me I'm wrong? The info your giving me is wrong, especially about Taqiya. There is no such a thing as that.
You know, I'm just going to put aside a few things. From your responses, I can immediately tell what kind of person you are. You refuse to allow others judge America through the behavior of those soldiers, yet you allow yourself to judge a religion based on the behavior of those who dont even adhere to Islam properly. The only reason why I am not behaving the same way you are towards my religion is because I have lived in this country and still am, and I know how it runs. Though it does not guarantee everyone their full rights, it is still a free country. But you, you can't just make assumptions based on some disastrous event in one day. Thats wrong, and right now, I could say that America is full of people like you,hypocrites, people who tell others not to do something when they themselves do it. Thats just wrong.

Salam
Dina

Dina:

Yes, CGW, I am a American. But my first priority is my religion, Islam.

Thank you for admitting this crucial fact.

It's precisely because Muslims consider their primary allegiance to be to Islam that we will probably be forced to expel them from our midst before this war is over.

Dina:

I have been taught Islam in a private school all my life, and you, You have not been taught it, but you judge it according to those 'handful' of nominal followers. You continue to judge it through the biased opinions of others. You're telling me I'm wrong?

Not at all. I'm telling you that you're a liar.

I apologize for not making myself clearer before.

you can't just make assumptions based on some disastrous event in one day.

I'm making no "assumptions" at all, and my opinion regarding Islam and its followers is based on a lot more than "some disastrous event in one day."

I KNOW what your Qur'an says.

I can READ what your Islamic scholars say about Jihad.

You may or may not agree with them, or with the Jihadists, but in the long run, it makes no difference whatsoever.

We WILL stop them, with or without your assistance.

All you're doing is making our jobs harder.

Lobo,
"It's precisely because Muslims consider their primary allegiance to be to Islam that we will probably be forced to expel them from our midst before this war is over."
What does our allegiance to Islam have to do with you expelling us out of your so callede midst have to do with anything. Last time i recalled, America was a free country, so i guess we're free to worship whoever we want and however we want.

Lobo:
It seems that you constantly overlook everything else I have to say in response to some of your irritating comments. Yes, big deal, my religion comes first. Why should America? America is just a piece land. It's not going to stand up for me in the Day of Judgement, now is it? yes, I show respect to it, but not patriotism. why? Because this is the main cause of destructing the unity of the Muslim Ummah. We are Muslims, and that is that. We are not Arabs, or Desis, or w.e., but just Muslims. We shall stay united as Muslims, and no one can further divide us. However, patriotism is why our Muslim Ummah is suffering, and why people look at one another as Palestinians or Egyptians, etc. They dont look at each other as their Muslim brothers or sisters.

Salam,
Dina

Of course there would be, as long as there are people like you, the DNC, and the majority of the American media around to spread lies about what we're doing.
what do you mean by people like me? excuse me, Lobo, but if you haven't been reading the newspapers, you would have noticed that even Nick Bergs parents were totally against this war. Believe me, no one likes it, whether ur Muslim or not. You may relish the idea of innocent people dying, but me, and millions of others do not. In addition, your so-called America contributed to the death of Nick Berg. Those people who killed him asked the US to let several of their Iraqi prisoners go in exchange for Nick Berg but the US refused.
If you havent noticed America has been in every single war since the Gulf war to the Mexican war....what does America have to do with all of these wars?....nothing...Same with Iraq what right does america have for entering Iraq.
Also you are the one that is absorbing everything the media is saying like a mindless sponge. you hear bad comments about Islam....do you even bother going and researching about Islam in places that speak the truth about Islam not some stupid websites that make lies about Islam. Trust me if you get to know the true Islam you will convert in a heartbeat....but sadly you dont and I feel very sorry that you dont know Islam the way it REALLY is.

Lobo:
If you are to make any accusations against Islam, then I advise you to back it up from the Quran. And I repeat, what is taqiya. From what I know, taqiya is no such a thing, and does not exist. I don't know what version of Islam you have been taught, or have percieved, so please, "enlighten" me with the definition of taqiya. You know, it really is amusing to watch you bring in stuff to back up your false statement, stuff that don't even exist.

Salam,
Dina
P.S. I am still awaiting your response to some of my comments. If you refuse to do so, then I will simply take your silence as easy defeat.

Lobo,
"Not at all. I'm telling you that you're a liar.

I apologize for not making myself clearer before."
Well Im tellin you that youre the only liar here.
"I KNOW what your Qur'an says.

I can READ what your Islamic scholars say about Jihad." If you knew what our Quran said, then you would have converted into Islam a longgggg time ago, its either you are a numskulled ignorant person, or maybe youre just blind and you need to check your eyes.

Lobo:
"I KNOW what your Qur'an says"
Well, if you aver to "KNOW" what the Qur'an states, may you please prove it...that shouldn't be too hard should it...if you know that 2 plus 2 equals 4 there is no difficulty in proving it is there?

Dina-

If I may post on behalf of Lobo, in response to what is taqiyya...I went in search of this myself. Here is what I found:

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html

Dina, and all other muslims posting here, is there an Islamic country where I may go and openly proselytize for Christianity of (Allah forbid) Judaism...the answer is no, well not without getting killed or jailed.

It seems we have something of a religious trade imbalance...I am actually pretty impartial; I am getting convinced it is all a crock of shit. But fair is fair; if muslims can pour over here and walk around in sandals and robes and whatnot, we infidels should be free to parade around the islamic world in thong bikinis and with nose-rings and such...

The story about the father and child is cute. It is also crap.

I am a dad, too.

My reply to the last line:

"I hate that anyone is getting killed. But the governments in this region, and unfortunately many muslims it seems, support periodically flying planes into occupied buildings, and blowing themselves up to kill westerners, christians, jews, basically anyone that is not them. If this does not work, millions of people on both sides may be killed."

First of allll Kirk what we Muslims wear is a head scarf that represnts modesty and respect, and it protects Muslim women against being judged by their looks like beaty or somthing but instead being judged by who tey are. and anyways the Muslim clothing is modest and covers, unlike the bikins or whatever taht you speak of tell me if a girl goes out like that can you honestly tell me that people who dont know this girl will think of her as a respectful person or judge her by her looks. they will judge her by her looks, men will want to meet her because of the way she looks, and looking the way she is she isnt modest. and you are a father if you had a daughter would you like it if everyone was looking at your daughter that way or would you rather your daughter being modest and respected and judged by her personality....Muslims would obviously not like it if anyone was going around with very little clothing what kind of respect would they gain none....actually people well pre- judge them by their looks and they way their dressed and how its just a very immoral way to dress. where are the ethics and morals people are suppsoed to have?? you tell me

Nour:

What does our allegiance to Islam have to do with you expelling us out of your so callede midst have to do with anything.

To put it simply, it means that you can't be trusted.

Last time i recalled, America was a free country, so i guess we're free to worship whoever we want and however we want.

I'm always amused when people who don't consider themselves to be bound by our "man-made laws" turn around and try to use them against us.

Kirk,
"Dina, and all other muslims posting here, is there an Islamic country where I may go and openly proselytize for Christianity of (Allah forbid) Judaism...the answer is no, well not without getting killed or jailed." Well see, America is a free country as I said before, so we are allowed to worship whoever we want and follow our religion and part of our religion is to do Dawaa which is to try to convert others into our religion as well. But see, islamic countries are "ISLAMIC"

Muslim:

excuse me, Lobo, but if you haven't been reading the newspapers, you would have noticed that even Nick Bergs parents were totally against this war.

I'm well aware of the fact that Berg's parents are left-wing activists. So what?

You may relish the idea of innocent people dying, but me, and millions of others do not.

A hell of a lot more "innocent people" died in Iraq during a typical year under Saddam than have been killed by US troops while we've been there. I don't recall hearing you complain about that.

In addition, your so-called America contributed to the death of Nick Berg.

Bullshit. People like you and the American and European left-wing media contributed to his death, by spreading the sort of lies you continue to spew here.

Those people who killed him asked the US to let several of their Iraqi prisoners go in exchange for Nick Berg but the US refused.

We don't negotiate with terrorists. All giving in to their demands would have done is shown them that their tactics worked.

You are the one that is absorbing everything the media is saying like a mindless sponge.

I don't get my information about Iraq from the media. Most of what I hear comes either through official channels or directly from people I know who are there at the moment.

you hear bad comments about Islam....

Not in the mainstream media, I don't. They mostly lap up the lies put forth by Islamic apologist groups like CAIR.

do you even bother going and researching about Islam in places that speak the truth about Islam

Yes, I do. Which is why I'm not interested in your lies.

Trust me if you get to know the true Islam you will convert in a heartbeat....

I'd make a pretty lousy Muslim. I don't believe in beating my wife, for one thing.

I also have a problem with any religion that demands that anyone who decides to convert to another faith be killed.

To Muslim:

what people wear and how they worship should not be of concern to anyone. And what people wear should not matter, either. Someone else's personal ethics or habits are none of my damn business, as long as what they do does not impact me. "Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose". This is called freedom.

To Nour: Your statement proves why we must continue to intervene in the Middle East. You, and others like you, are why EXACTLY we are there.

And, you did not see my point about the millions of people...we infidels, non-muslims, whatever you want to call us, are not going anywhere...its the theology of the Trident that I am afraid you may learn.

Dina:

If you are to make any accusations against Islam, then I advise you to back it up from the Quran.

Or what? You'll have your Jihadist friends come and cut my head off while screaming "Alahu Akbar!"?

Sorry, but I'm not going to spend the evening engaged in another posting war with you, because it's pointless, and it's been done before on numerous other threads on this site.

We both know how it goes. I post a quote from some source; you post a claim that it's false; I post another quote from another source; you post a claim that that source is false, too.

Sorry...not interested.

As I've said before, in the long run, it doesn't even matter which of us is right, because the terrorists agree with MY take on Islam. Since you refuse to do anything to stop them, people like me will have to do so.

It's going to be messy, but you have no one to blame but yourself.

I am still awaiting your response to some of my comments. If you refuse to do so, then I will simply take your silence as easy defeat.

Or, you could take it as my having been in my car when you posted them, rather than sitting at my desk.

Nour comments:

"First of all they are called MARTYRS or what is in Arabic called Shaheed, so they are killing theirselves for the sake of Allah (swt) and for the sake of Islam, not like others who dont even care about their religion."

Can we all please READ that once more, let's soak it in. No blinking.

Modern Islamofascism is far more insidious & dangerous than the Nazis in Germany ever were...WHY? Because this EVIL madness is masked in "religion".

Does God (True God) need us -- (mere mortals!) to protect his honor, or need us to threaten those not interested in this false, misleading & deceptive message? Interestingly, too, suicide "MARTYRS/Shaheed" are the only practitioners of Islam that are (falsely!) assured salvation, complete with raisin-eyed virgins. The God of Justice would find a more suitable eternity for such as these, without a doubt.

Mass deception -- brewing in a madrassas near (or not near) you. How does that make you feel next time you get on an airplane?

"By their fruits you will know them".

lobo: "I'd make a pretty lousy Muslim. I don't believe in beating my wife, for one thing."
wow, what a coincidence!! neither do all the muslim men i know!
"I also have a problem with any religion that demands that anyone who decides to convert to another faith be killed."
if that was true, wouldnt i be tracking you all down and looking to kill you? but guess what... im NOT. sooo, ur just stupid.

Nour:

First of all they are called MARTYRS or what is in Arabic called Shaheed, so they are killing theirselves for the sake of Allah (swt) and for the sake of Islam, not like others who dont even care about their religion.

No, they're called MURDERERS. The fact that you support them proves my earlier point, which is that it is simply impossible for anyone in the West to trust ANY Muslim, regardless of where he or she was born.

And if you dont like when innocent people are being killed, then why are you Americans and Jews killing hundreds and hundreds of innocent people in Palestine, Iraq, etc. etc. every single day.

First of all, Americans are NOT "killing hundreds and hundreds of innocent people in Palestine, Iraq, etc. every single day." The fact that you believe that we are is just further evidence of your brainwashing.

And there is no such place as "Palestine." Go buy a real map.

"We both know how it goes. I post a quote from some source; you post a claim that it's false; I post another quote from another source; you post a claim that that source is false, too."
u forgot the part when we quote true sources, and you get your sources from some anti-islam site, and convientntly forget to mention that fact.

Muslimpride:

u forgot the part when we quote true sources, and you get your sources from some anti-islam site, and convientntly forget to mention that fact.

And YOU conveniently forgot to mention the fact that Muslims are programmed to lie about Islam to non-Muslims.

Which makes anything you say suspect.

Kirk:
I will not be taking your researched info on taqiya, because from all the other info you and other people have been presenting me, it’s all crap. So, I will be asking a Muslim scholar about this. Keep in mind that I am not saying the website you have given me is false, its just a matter of trust.
“But fair is fair; if muslims can pour over here and walk around in sandals and robes and whatnot, we infidels should be free to parade around the islamic world in thong bikinis and with nose-rings and such...”
Kirk, you seem to be forgetting that America and the other countries are completely different. Sees, we, the Muslims believe in modesty, something which you obviously lack. That is why we don’t want to see you guys walking naked around our kids. America is different. I recall you guys saying, a land of the free, right? So I don’t think you guys should complain as to why we wear abayas and scarves. Rules are rules, and what a country allows, is what it allows.
"I hate that anyone is getting killed. But the governments in this region, and unfortunately many muslims it seems, support periodically flying planes into occupied buildings, and blowing themselves up to kill westerners, christians, jews, basically anyone that is not them. If this does not work, millions of people on both sides may be killed."
Cute, but all crap.
“The story about the father and child is cute. It is also crap.”
Don’t you dare tell me its crap. This was all over the news. Well maybe not in the American news, because they obviously don’t want to display this to people who might change their whole view on America. You say you’re a father. Well, I definitely feel sorry for your children. If this is your outlook on life, then good luck. Also, you should be ashamed of yourselves for asking a women whether she has a clitoris or not. That is revolting, and I don’t see any connection it has as to what we are discussing.

“A hell of a lot more "innocent people" died in Iraq during a typical year under Saddam than have been killed by US troops while we've been there. I don't recall hearing you complain about that.”
Just because we don’t bring that up during our discussions, does not mean we don’t care. And first of all, America had no business sticking themselves into something which didn’t even concern them, even when the UN refused to go. Sadam has been ruling for god knows how many years, why is that that now Bush decides to go and free them. A bit too late? And, don’t tell me he did go and liberate them, because first of all, he just caused one-hell of a havoc, and second of all, I remember him saying that he was to go there to check if there were any nuclear bombs, something which the U.S. has supplied them.

“We don't negotiate with terrorists. All giving in to their demands would have done is shown them that their tactics worked.”
So your pride is worth more than the life of an innocent man? Is that what I am hearing from this American?

“I'd make a pretty lousy Muslim. I don't believe in beating my wife, for one thing.”
Whoa, you did not just go there. I am a Muslim woman, and I know how Muslim women are treated, that is, if the men follow Islam the way it should be followed, and I assure, if they did not, then I would not be here. I am very sensitive when anyone, be it Muslim or non-Muslim, approach this topic. Your Bible says that man was not created for woman, but women were created for men. And, it goes on further, saying that ‘for this reason and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.” ( 1 Corinthians 11:6-10) in other words, a Christian women is also required to wear a head covering. But, the reason we wear our Hijab is to ensure safety and protection. Compare with the purpose of wearing head scarves with your Bible to that of the Quran.

“I also have a problem with any religion that demands that anyone who decides to convert to another faith be killed.”
And which religion would that be?

Salam,
Dina

Kirk:
Compare what you said earlier:

"But fair is fair; if muslims can pour over here and walk around in sandals and robes and whatnot, we infidels should be free to parade around the islamic world in thong bikinis and with nose-rings and such..."

To what you say now

"what people wear and how they worship should not be of concern to anyone. And what people wear should not matter, either. Someone else's personal ethics or habits are none of my damn business, as long as what they do does not impact me."

Amazing isnt?

Salam
Dina

Lobo:
“Or what? You'll have your Jihadist friends come and cut my head off while screaming "Alahu Akbar!"?”

Or, any statement you make regarding Islam is false and invalid. And this will go to prove that you are just a lame person who has really no excuse as to why you go against Islam, a religion of truth.

“Or, you could take it as my having been in my car when you posted them, rather than sitting at my desk.”
I’ll take neither, because this is after you read my post, and then replied, making no reply to my other comments. You’re right. I am not going to waste my time on some ignorant fools, who refuse to believe the truth, when its thrust right in their faces. All the info you give me s crap, so what do you expect me to do with it? Accept it when I know it isn’t true??!! Maybe you’ve been taught that by your religion, but me, no. Now, Ill just leave God to deal with you. When the time comes, when you people will realize that Islam is the right religion, and the truth, then I will pray to my Lord to forgive you all.

Salam Dina

Dina:

So your pride is worth more than the life of an innocent man? Is that what I am hearing from this American?

If it is, you need to have your ears checked.

What that means is, if they learn that they can get their terrorist buddies out of jail by kidnapping and threatening to murder a random Western civilian, then tomorrow they'll kidnap ten more.

Pride has nothing to do with it. Common sense does.

Whoa, you did not just go there. I am a Muslim woman, and I know how Muslim women are treated, that is, if the men follow Islam the way it should be followed, and I assure, if they did not, then I would not be here.

So what you're saying is that the fact that your husband is one of these so-called "moderate" Muslims means that there aren't hundreds of millions of Muslim men who DO believe that the Qur'an allows them to do so?

By the way...I realize that the anti-Christian websites you use for information about the Bible probably don't explain this, but the fact that the Old Testament says something doesn't mean that Christians actually observe it today.

We don't typically go around stoning people to death, for example.

Unlike a few Islamic countries I can think of...

Dina:

Now, Ill just leave God to deal with you. When the time comes, when you people will realize that Islam is the right religion, and the truth, then I will pray to my Lord to forgive you all.

That time is NEVER going to happen, so you and your friends should probably just take your Jihad and go home.

While you still have one to go back to.

Dina, you said:
Compare what you said earlier:

"But fair is fair; if muslims can pour over here and walk around in sandals and robes and whatnot, we infidels should be free to parade around the islamic world in thong bikinis and with nose-rings and such..."

To what you say now

"what people wear and how they worship should not be of concern to anyone. And what people wear should not matter, either. Someone else's personal ethics or habits are none of my damn business, as long as what they do does not impact me."

Amazing isnt?"

Dina

I say it sure is, how you miss the point. Muslims are welcomed to the western democracies, attend our universities, get jobs, raise families, and worship and wear whatever they want. No special infidel tax. And full protection of the law.

But this is a one way street...when christians and jews are allowed to LIVE in an Islamic country, they are subjected to special taxes and are not permitted to openly worship...and violence against them seems to be the rule, and not the exception.

And as for your clitoris, I really don't care, and why should you care if I ask? Are you so pure, such a high and mighty Muslim Virgin, that you cannot answer a direct, admittedly rude question through the anonymity of the Internet?

By the way, when a "Martyr" explodes himself, do (how many is it again?) 72 pure virgins such as yourself also have to kill yourselves so he can have his heavenly concubines?

Yes, I am a wonderful father to my daughters, in fact. They will never be a brainwashed, second class citizen as you are Dina. They will always be free, independent women...as long as I am breathing, anyway.

Now, go learn the theology of the Trident. I was hoping it would not happen, but I am getting the feeling you will be learning it soon.

Muslim, before you accuse us of having 1400 versions of the Bible, how many have you actually read? I've read a number of versions in English, Chinese, and French (struggled a little with Syriac, too), but I can see that all come from the same Hebrew and Greek urtexten.

Also, Jesus, God and sinless man in one person, died on the cross because your sins and my sins were so great that no other atonement could suffice. This is why God forbae Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, for a sinful man is no atonement for another sinner. We take sin a lot more seriously. Further, centuries before Jesus, the Prophet Isaiah spoke by the Holy Spirit of the Messiah, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Is. 53:5-6).

BTW, Deuteronomy 18 cannot speak of Muhammad, for it says to descendants of Isaac that the prophet will arise from among "your brethren"; and Muhammad clearly descends from Ishmael. Jesus, however, is also of Isaac's seed (Matthew 1). Nor does the upper room discourse in John speak of Muhammad, for the comforter whom Jesus promises is obviously the Holy Spirit of God himself.

I would urge our Muslim interlocutors to pick up the Bible and read--especially since many of us have taken the effort to read the Qu'ran. If English is a second language, I'm sure the book can be had in Arabic, Turkish, Chinese, Farsi, Urdu, Malay, Bengali, etc. (this is why there are 1400 versions and counting--there are so many languages; not so many teachings).

From what I can see, the problem with Dina is not that she is lying... the problem is she believes that since she has lived in Islam all of her life that she knows all about it.

I seem to remember a posting on another thread where she had to ask her Imam questions that were posed on this site and he gave her differing information. If she were so aware of what the tenets of her faith were, why is she going to an Imam to ask such questions? I don't need to go to a Pastor to ask about Christian thought and theology, or a Rabbi to ask about Jewish thought or theology, and I have studied both religions extensively. I get the impression that her reactions are more driven by emotion, articulately stated, rather than real scholarship in Islam's tenets, theology or current teachings. Of course, this is conjecture on my part. It comes from a subjective interpretation, on my part, from having read many of her postings.

Dina has also lived all of her life in the US. Therefore, she has been rather sheltered. She knows nothing - as far as I can see - about Muslim life in the Old country. Had she been born and raised in one of those countries, more than likely she would be completely illiterate and unable to type out her thoughts on the internet.

In my impression, she is well meaning, but certainly not a scholar on such subjects.

Loved this quote from Infidel23 - so true:

"What I hate most about Islam is its insistence that everyone must conform to a drab, dull, lifeless, hate-filled sameness. It's like Soviet era communism, but with sand instead of snow. Their vision of the world is not only stomach-turningly repulsive, it's just plain wrong."

I feel the same way. Everyone must conform to the same boring sameness. When I think about all of the multicolored tapestry that is in the world today - all the amazing cultures, not just of today's world, but of the past through history - I just can't help but see the oppressive nature of Islamic fundamentalism. All the women must wear the burka, hijab (whatever they are called in whatever culture). There is no imagination to it. Music is banned. People are not encouraged to think, or express themselves in any way that is not acceptable to the general Islamic culture. It is dry, drab and empty of anything with a refreshing breeze of difference. Should the whole world fall to this way of thinking and life, it would lose so much of the originality and spice of the human spirit. And, I would hate (HATE) to see that. Vive ledifferance

Thanks for the link kc. I would laugh if it weren't so sad that people believe such nonsense. The thing about the Qu'ran saying that the Samaritans built the golden calf though, got me quite amused. I think Aaron HaCohen would have welcomed that idea. He got into a lot of hot water for building the dern thing after all. ;-)

#1;
"P.S. I am still awaiting your response to some of my comments. If you refuse to do so, then I will simply take your silence as easy defeat."
Posted by Dina at June 2, 2004 07:34 PM

Shall apply your criteria for defeat, to you Dina?
Over two weeks ago I asked you to explain why Muhammed said women have half the common sense of men.
I'm still waiting for your response.

Hadith by Muslim, book 1, #142;
"It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Umar that the Messenger of Allah observed: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense,"

#2;
“I also have a problem with any religion that demands that anyone who decides to convert to another faith be killed.”
And which religion would that be?
Salam,
Dina
Posted by Dina at June 2, 2004 09:37 PM

That Dina, would be Islam.

Hadith by Bukhari, vol.9, book 84, #57;
Narrated 'Ikrima:
"Some Zanadiqa were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Hadith by Bukhari,
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
Narrated Abu Burda:
"..Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice."

Regards,
KC

Dina:

You were asked about your clitoris because Shariah law specifically mandates that it be removed. kirk was only trying to ascertain how well you follow the laws of your own religion.

While you're asking questions of your imam, ask him what Shariah law says specifically about wife-beating and apostasy from Islam. We can quote you chapter and verse from the Qur'an and ahadith but since you won't believe us anyway, ask him to give you the specific citations, not just a general answer. Since there are several to choose from that contradict each other, make sure that they are the later ones that abrogate whatever the earlier ones say.

It's precisely because Muslims consider their primary allegiance to be to Islam that we will probably be forced to expel them from our midst before this war is over.

i thought you said you were an AMERICAN not some cruel sadistic perve whose a crazy nut that wants to kill everyone even FELLOW AMERICANS

To kc england, lobo91, cgw, paula,basil, soldierofchrist, etc.
To all you ignornant not wanting to learn people out there, you have no clue in what u are tlking about, wake up and know the world yuo are living in. you seem to all people who are locked up at home not knowing what is going on around you, all you see is the point of view of the Jews, all you belive in is what the Jews say, did you ever try watch ALJazeera the BEST and the only truthful Muslim and Islamic News Broadcasting System, thats shows to you live pictures that show evident proof about what happens in the world , and still the americans and the Jews insist on making up some STUPID lies of theres and making the people believe it. All they try to do is BRAINWASH the people and make them believe everything they say. Could any of you ignorant people tell me a chanel other than CNN which also lies that bings live pictures from PALESTINE that what you people quote in quote call israel which is not and will never be or pictures from Iraq of Chechnya or any of theses countries that are being oppressed my America or the jews. Tell me because i gaurantee you that your answer would be NO.

Nisren;
Its 11:15 here in England, I am going to bed.
Check here this time tommorow.
I will have responded.
"Insha-Yahweh"

Regards,
kc

And Nisren,

How many Jews do you personally know? When did you study anything about what their religion is about? Or, have you gotten all of your news from the Al Jazeera that teaches the Muslims that "The Protocols of The Elders of Zion" is the truth? Do you even know that it was a hoax, perpetrated by the Russians and extolled by the Nazis as propaganda? When we see such drivel coming out of the "holy" Al Jezeera (my sarcasm here being intentional), it gives us little doubt as to the quality of the rest of that broadcasting company's credibility. When I hear that Muslims all over the Middle East actually believe such nonsense that Jews kill Christian children for blood to bake into Passover Matzahs (and don't try and deny this, I saw the video feed over at MEMRI.org) I realize your countries have the same ignorance, bigotry and stupidity as the people who in the Middle Ages believed such tripe. We don't have any use for Al Jazeera's BS messages. We are a little more intelligent than you give us credit for.</