UK’s Channel 4 Pulls Child Sex Documentary on Racial Fears

edgeofthecity196.jpeg
From Channel 4’s promotional material

The producers of this documentary spent a year working with Bradford Social Services and the troubled people they help. “These are the neighbours we don’t want to know whose problems we don’t want to see,” said the producers. How right they were.

LONDON (Reuters) – A British television documentary which shows Asian men grooming under-age white girls for sex has been shelved because of fears it could incite racial violence ahead of elections, Channel 4 said Friday.
The broadcaster said the decision to pull “Edge of the City” was taken after discussions with police.

Bradford, the northern city where the program was filmed, was rocked in 2001 by race riots between Asians and whites.

“The police feared that the timing of the broadcast would increase community tensions in Bradford…with the risk that it would lead to public disorder,” the broadcaster said in a statement.

The program, which was to have been screened earlier this week, explores what it calls an explosion of child abuse whereby Asian men in the city have been targeting young girls for sex — one as young as 11 — by plying them with drugs.

The Muslim Political Affairs Committee (MPAC) is crowing:

Success: “˜Edge of the City” Stopped

It was a last minute rush to get this biased documentary postponed, but we did it. MPACUK readers rushed to register their dismay at linking race with paedophiles; the police registered their concern by stating that it could cause racial tensions and MPAC contacted 5 MPs and a Lord to ask them to raise this with Channel 4. Here is MPAC”s story on what we did, who we talked to and the one guy who we got to. This is why lobbying works and why Muslims need to know their MPs.

Wait a minute. Didn’t you guys forget to blame the so-called hatemongers who report verifiable facts backed up with documentary evidence? Oh — never mind. You put that bit at the end.

This small success by the Grace of Allah, the hard work of the e-group and the personal interest shown by our Parliamentary representatives, show that when we do make an effort, we get results. And that is why we demand that the mosques actively lobby and teach their congregation the importance of politics. With Allah’s blessing and our deeds we can and will make a difference. If we all mobilize to the man, woman and child, then the BNP, Zionist, Islamophobes can all be beaten. The key is everyone participating.

Ironically the program also profiles Mathew, a repeat offender and “underprivileged white youth” who is assigned to Omar — a British Muslim whose role is to keep him out of trouble.

Reuters explains how the law prohibits stirring up racial tension (even “inadvertently”).

Local and European elections take place throughout Britain in June and broadcasters are duty-bound not to transmit material which is either intended to create racial hatred or which could inadvertently stir up racial tension.

In short, there are just some things one does not talk about. Sorry for the girls and all that, but we can’t take a chance on upsetting people.

Background via the BBC on the 2001 riots:

“Segregation, albeit self-segregation, is an unacceptable basis for a harmonious community and it will lead to more serious problems if it is not tackled.”

Europe, are you listening?

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Comments

  1. says

    “Asian” is a geographic term. Are those “Asians” involved Chinese? Hindus from India? Koreans? Japanese? Buddhist Sinhalese? Just a guess, but might not those “Asians” all have one thing in common — Islam? And if the first act of Khomeini was, in being true to Islam, to reduce the marriageable age of Iranian girls to nine years, on the model of Muhammad (who married his last, and favorite, wife Aisha when she was six, and demurely held off from having sexual intercourse with her until she was nine), why should other Muslims not find similar delight in sexual intercourse with young girls?

    And just like the ring of rich Arabs who, some twenty-five years ago, from their base in the Waldorf-Astoria (curious, because the Waldorf-Astoria was then going downhill), enjoyed phoning up for delivery of Western prostitutes and what made the whole ensuing debauch more piquant for the Arabs was the fact that the putane in question were all wearing, just for extra fun, crosses and stars of David. You get the idea — there is something particularly delightbul about debauching the “women” (for that is how they are seen in Islam) of the Infidel enemy, of subjecting “their women” to the most depraved, and therefore from the Muslim point of view most wonderful, experiences.

    The gang-rapes by Muslims in Sydney, Australia were classic examples of this type. What is going on in France, today, or Italy, or Great Britain, or in Denmark and Norway, where 70% of the rapes are committed not by “immigrants” but specifically by Muslim immigrants, are part of a completely comprehensible pattern. The booty to which Muslims are entitled is not only the loot of the Infidel world, but a free way with the women of Unbelievers. And if they can be debauched early on, and trained up to service Muslim desires, so much the better — and what a delightful constrat to the carefully chaperoned — what modesty! what enforced chastity! — by contrast, of Muslim girls, and Muslim women.

    It all fits. And it all needs to be published broadly, and made accessible rather than suppressed, so that Infidels will understand exactly how such matters, which are not simply those of unrepresentative criminals, but of Muslim attitudes toward non-Muslim women (with whom anything can be done, and should be), in contrast to their violent vigilance when it comes to “their own women.” For women, mind you, have no independent existence; they are pawns, counters in the game, and to debauch the enemy’s women is right, just, and altogether proper. But if that enemy so much as dares to look or touch “our women,” the frenzied fanaticism comes out — it is never too far from the surface.

  2. says

    It’s worse than “dhimmitude”. That’s bad enough, but this is a political act, in the run-up to elections in which an anti-immigrant (=anti-muslim) party looks set to do well. “Big Brother” is watching, and doesn’t like what he sees. And when “Big Brother” has friends like this….

  3. says

    I’m very glad you drew attention to this. Race always trumps gender (see OJ Simpson case). This is a prime example of dhimmitude.

    Had white men been grooming young muslim girls for prostitution you would never have heard the end of it.

    Stirring up hatred is not intrinsically a bad thing. Hatred for these scumbags is the only morally legitimate reaction.

  4. says

    I wonder if my silent aunt and uncle have thought about their granddaughter. She’s being raised over in East Anglia, quite the pretty little girl. At the age of 14 she would be a right nice ripe target for these boyos. Of course mum and dad are both ex military so maybe they are a bit sharper.
    Dhimmi anyone?

  5. says

    No surprise here,Muhammed had sex with
    children and even claimed the voice in his
    head was that of Allah saying it was OK.

    Today we have drugs for this condition
    and jails for those that act out on the
    desires of pedophilia.

  6. says

    Hugh:

    In the UK Asian refers specifically to people from the Indian sub-continent and Pakistan.

    The term used by Brits for Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Malay, etc is Oriental. Brits, unlike Americans, never refer to Chinese as Asian.

  7. says

    This is an outrage on (at least ) 2 levels.
    1. The police seem to be dictating what the public can have access to.
    2. If this had been an expose on say catholic priest child molestation charges or US prisoner abuse, would the authorities (police/government) have been so quick with their advice.

    What a complete and utter cop-out. The British public have been deemed too stupid to view this material. The other issue is that if it does spark outrage that young girls are being exploited, WTF does that tell you ?

  8. says

    The BBC report about on the background to the Bradford “race” riots is misleading.

    My sister is a manager in Bradford social services, and the true story goes like this.

    In the ’60s and 70s immigrants, mainly young men from Pakistan came to Bradford for work, and just like those West Indians and Indians who came to London, Birmingham, and other places in the 50s they had difficulty integrating with the indiginous population and subsequently formed their own ghettos.

    Being young men, they had the usual urges of youth, but unlike the West Indians for example who had a desire to integrate but found couldn’t easily do so, the Pakistani youth had no desire to integrate and used local prostitutes for their pleasures. Over time the Pakistanis brought their wives and families over and trade for the prostitutes dwindled. Nothing surprising in that, but what happened next was the turning point.

    Not content with just no longer wanting the services of the prostitutes, they didn’t even want the prostitutes around their neighbourhood. Things started to turn ugly Muslim vigilanties started trying to drive the prostitutes out of the area by force. The locals, the families and friends of the prostitutes didn’t take kindly to this. And the BNP (British Nationalist Party, the closest thing the Brits have had to Nazis since Mosley) stepped in to defend the honour of the women. The rest is, as they say, history.

  9. says

    This might sound strange, but I wonder how hard it would be to get for instance, Fox News or MSNBC to pick up the documentary, just so it could be aired to the public in some form?
    If just one station would pick it up, then the rest would follow and the story could be released.
    Robert, what would your suggestions be?

  10. says

    Dear Hugh,

    “”Asian” is a geographic term. Are those “Asians” involved Chinese? Hindus from India? Koreans? Japanese? Buddhist Sinhalese?”
    Certainly so. Asian is what stretches from afganistan to japan. That includes pakistan, india, china, malaysia, singapore etc…

    “but might not those “Asians” all have one thing in common — Islam?”
    Not really. The largest asian muslim population would be indonesia, with around 210 Million people (of whom 90% are muslim). Pakistan and bangladesh come areound second. Howevere, you may be ignorent of the fact that muslims in asia are heavily outnumbered. For example, the non muslim populations are far greater. Take China (1.3 billion) and india (1.1 billion, with around 180 million muslims only) That already wheighs out the muslim population. There is more, there are the japanese (125.7 million) also another large non muslim population.

    “And if the first act of Khomeini was, in being true to Islam, to reduce the marriageable age of Iranian girls to nine years, on the model of Muhammad (who married his last, and favorite, wife Aisha when she was six, and demurely held off from having sexual intercourse with her until she was nine), why should other Muslims not find similar delight in sexual intercourse with young girls?”
    For the reasons
    *.They are not married to the girls, hence it is not permited for them to engage in such activities with them
    *. Sex outside of marriage, in islam, is regarded as one of the ten greatest sins, which is punishable by 100 wips
    *. Rape is punishable by stoning to death.

    “The gang-rapes by Muslims in Sydney, Australia were classic examples of this type. What is going on in France, today, or Italy, or Great Britain, or in Denmark and Norway, where 70% of the rapes are committed not by “immigrants” but specifically by Muslim immigrants, are part of a completely comprehensible pattern”
    Back up your lie. Its not surprising that robert spencer added a professional liar to his team. Go on, proove what you say, or will you back off as you did in the other thread?

    “It all fits. And it all needs to be published broadly, and made accessible rather than suppressed, so that Infidels will understand exactly how such matters, which are not simply those of unrepresentative criminals, but of Muslim attitudes toward non-Muslim women (with whom anything can be done, and should be), ”
    Where does islam advocate, let alone permit such behaviour. Did not Prophet Muhammed warn againt even looking at women who’s aaoura (parts of the body to be covered) as a great sin. You justify there acts with irrelevant assosiations to how the prophet maried a young girl. You attempt to paint islam responsible for somthing that is a result of western ideals and the sex symbolisation of women in ever magazing, newspaper, advertisement in evey corner of your world. It is strange, at a time when the only voice against sex before marriage, and immodesty are islam and muslim. And it is even stranger because you accuse us of what we despise most.

    Answer me… If you can

    -regards
    Ahmad

  11. says

    Ahmad, Muhammed HIMSELF raped at least one woman. The Jewish lady Ruyhana had just seen her entire tribe Banu Qurayza, including her husband, slaughtered by Muhammed’s barbarians. And then Muhammed tokk her as his sex slave THE SAME NIGHT. What kind of disgusting human being would do such a thing?

  12. says

    Wasn’t the move to ban headscarfs in public in France a result of the gang rapes by Muslim men of Muslim women who refused to wear the hijab? It appears that rape is allowed in the Islamic “faith”.

  13. says

    There is also stories of non muslim South Asian women [Fillipino, Indian,Thai,etc]who work as Maids/Housekeepers/Cooks/Nannys that are raped and beaten by their muslim employers in Saudia Arabia,Dubai,UEA,etc.They were rape because their employers felt is was their right and because they are non muslim.

  14. says

    Iraqi women both Christian and secular have also been raped for not wearing the hijab.Iraqi women who are not Muslim have taken to wearing the hijab to prevent rapes by Muslim men.

  15. says

    Lily and RED, you are both right.

    http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=3&d=9&m=11&y=2003&mode=dynamic&pix=kingdom.jpg

    I am writing on behalf of a group of Filipino women working for a chain of beauty parlors. The employer has given them verbal instructions not to open their flat’s door except in an emergency. One day, the women ordered food from outside and opened the door to take the delivery, which came to the knowledge of their employer, and he deducted SR200 from their salaries for not following his verbal instruction.

    This link no longer seems to work, but the original article was interesting:

    http://www.riyadhdaily.com.sa/display_assay.php?id=38366

    Ramadan Sparks Surge in Runaway Maid Cases

    The Philippine Overseas Labor Office (POLO) of the Philippine Embassy is much busier these days than during the other months of the year.
    “It’s during Ramadan when POLO receives so many calls from dometic helpers (DHs) who have run away from their sponsors and are seeking to be rescued. So, we are taken up by taking instructions on how our drivers would pick them up to be brought to the Bahay Kalinga or OWWA Center,”
    .
    Since Ramadan started on Oct. 27, some ten Filipino domestic helpers have sought sanctuary at the Bahay Kalinga, which is slightly more than the nine recorded during the same period last year.

    “Ramadan is by tradition the month when Filipino domestic helpers escape from their sponsors. They choose to escape at this time because their sponsors are asleep during the day, during which they could contact the POLO staff and request for assistance. On ordinary months, many sponsors are normally strict and don’t allow their maids to get out of the house,” Rasul said.
    He added that one reason why DHs escape during Ramadan could also be due to pressure of work.

    “During the day, the employers are asleep but the children are awake. So, naturally they have to look after them and provide whatever they need. At night, the children are asleep but that’s the time when the adults are awake. So, naturally the maids have to tend to them and look after their needs,” he said.
    He added that they sleep at about 4 a.m. and wake up at six.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/114798.html

    The phenomenon of gang rape in France has become banal. It occurs – how often is unknown – in the concrete wastelands built as cheap housing for immigrants on the outskirts of France’s big cities. Here, according to sociologists and prosecutors, teenage boys, many of them loosely organized into gangs, prey on neighborhood girls.

  16. says

    Regarding the french situation.

    It’s not only gang-rapes but also tortures you could not conceive, and psychological breakdown by humiliation.

    The girls are litterally tamed to become sexual things, by force, humiliation, menace of reprisal to their families.

    The medias are careful not to expose what really happens, and noone wants to hear the victims, who are usually too ashamed and traumatised to speak anyway. Besides they come from lower classes background which puts another difficulty in front of them.

    Ahmad you should go educate all the gang-rapists/jihadists here in France. One girl I councelled was raped hearing “filthy catholic whore we’ll rip you open in two with our dicks to pull your shit God out of your guts”. There are other details I prefer not to write here.

    May I add that the french government prohibits any study which takes in account the ethnic background of perpetrators and victims. No study, no proof, and guys like Ahmad are happy.

  17. says

    SusanB

    I read somewhere else that the documentary would be shown on Ch 4, just not before the election. If I hear of it I will post on this site.

    It is not unusual for documentaries to be pulled at sensitive times and shown later. However, I would personally question why this is so sensitive. We are forever pandering to Muslim sensitivities and it’s time it stopped.

  18. says

    Dear Ahmed !
    You are wrong!
    In Denmark we have this rape-problems with muslims. And other heavy problems with muslim-males.
    In some few years most of the people in Danish prisons will be muslim-males – says a new report from the Danish Police. Why ??

  19. says

    Anyone who wishes to see the reported figures on Muslim immigrants and rape, in Norway, Denmark, and other places in Scandinavia can easily do so by googling. Simply put in, for example, “Muslim” and “immigrant” and “rape” and then the country of your choice — if you put in “Norway” you will find that more than 65% of the rapes are committed by Muslim immigrants. There was even a story at jihwadwatch about a Norwegian judge blaming the victim for not understanding the mores of the immigrant who thought he could have her way with her because she, a Norwegian in Norway, her country, dared to dress as a — Norwegian.

    The misreading and miscomprehension of my remarks by “Ahmed” are too ludicrous to bother with, but others may want to see that from Australia to Norway, Muslim immigrants treat the peoples and polities of dar al-Harb with the inculcated contempt, hatred, and desire to dominate that come, not from individual viciousness, but the doctrines of Islam. They simply cannot regard us, the Infidels, as worthy of respect; we are here to be looted (loot, booty, is what Muslims have a right to demand from Infidels), whether that initially takes the form of taxpayer support, or criminal activities (credit card theft, cigarette smuggling, the drug trade — Muslim drug dealers, who are “violating” Islam, nonetheless have been known in Europe to donate part of their receipts to their local mosques, a fascinating way to buy their way back to Paradise — consistency is not their strong suit in this matter). Women, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, are not regarded as individuals but as mere counteres. A woman who “shames” the “honor” of the Muslim family or tribe can be killed, or otherwise harmed. She is not an independent personality, but must conform to the collective — for Islam is above all a phenomenon of the collective, the umma al-islamiyya, and not of the individual worhsipper or the expression of the individual conscience. In the mannter of prayer, in the near-total regulation of life, Islam has much more in common with the political totalitarianism of the Nazis or the Communists. The non-Muslim woman may be useful — they can be married for green cards, and Saudi imams have issued formal rulings to Saudi students abroad telling them it is fine to “marry” non-Muslim women in order to have a steady supply of sex, while studying abroad. It is also great fun to toy with Western women, with the debauchery not only delightful for sexual reasons, but because one is doing it with the women who belong to the Infidels, to the women of the enemies. A certain political, geopolitical, civilizational frisson gilds the lily of the Muslim’s jouissance.

    Of course there are exceptions. There are Muslims, who have lived in the West for decades and who deplore, or are unacquainted with, the teachings of Islam, and do not realize the full malevolence of them. But there are remarkably few such people. And those who do happen to be free from Muslim attitudes, and indifferent to Muslim tenets, may unwittingly promote the Jihad by claiming, quite wrongly, that these tenets do not exist, that there is nothing wrong with how Muslims regard non-Muslims, that Muhammad was a wonderful man and model of virtue, etc. etc. That makes them part of the problem as well. Even if it not taqiyya or kitman, it can reflect filial piety, a desperate desire to find good in Islam, to protect it, to cover for it, to keep in mind some wonderful and devoutly Muslim grandmother, let’s say, and to refrain from recognizing that her wonderfulness was in spite of Islam, not because of it. A difficult situation, but then there are many brave people who have been born into Islam, seen what is wrong with it, or lived through the full horror of something like Khomeini, and have jettisoned the most successful cult in history — people such as the contributors to Ibn Warraq’s Leaving Islam. There are more such people, every day. Not everyone is content to blindly accept the propaganda of Nazism, Communism, or for that matter Islam. People, not many but some, have found their way out. They should be publicized, and treated with respect.

  20. says

    Hugh: Do you have any links to fatwas about “marrying” Western women from Saudis? I guess they are careful to write everything in Arabic……

  21. says

    Seems like Bradford is not the only place in England where this is happening. This is about a small town in West Yorkshire, with a 70,000 population and an Asian (probably mostly Muslim) minority of just 16% (a fraction that of Bradford)

    Asian rape allegations
    Race

    Published: 22-Aug-2003
    By: Justin Rowlatt

    Channel 4 News has uncovered details of an 18 month police and social services investigation into allegations that young men are targeting under-age girls for sex, drugs and prostitution in the West Yorkshire town of Keighley.

    But what’s explosive about the allegations is that all the young men are Asian, and all the girls are white.

    The local MP, Anne Cryer, says the men’s cultural background of arranged marriages is the key to understanding the problem. That’s vehemently denied by Asian community leaders and by social workers.

    But the mothers of some of the girls say existing legislation is not protecting their children. Our North of England correspondent Justin Rowlatt has this:

    The suggestion that men are seeking out schoolgirls for sex would be controversial in any community. But the claims about what’s happening here in Keighley are particularly incendiary.

    Sixteen per cent of the Yorkshire town’s 70,000 population is Asian. And the allegation is that what is happening here in Keighley is that Asian men are seducing young white girls.

    Supt Mark Whyman, West Yorkshire Police:

    “Early last year we received a variety of reports that young Asian men by young I mean in their teens to their twenties were targeting young vulnerable school girls for sex and were actually leading to prostitution in some cases.”

    But it’s proved very difficult to tackle. Many of the girls don’t see themselves as victims and the police investigation – which lasted a year and a half – has lead to just one prosecution for a serious sexual offence, a rape.

    Kath Tunstall, Bradford Social Services

    “I fully agree and accept that young girls are being exploited and this is a child protection issue and that’s why we’re taking great steps to address it. There is a frustration without any evidence to pursue prosecutions.”

    As far as the police and social services are concerned this is a child protection matter — they say race is not an issue. Yet — even if they’ve never been involved — most schoolgirls in the town will tell you that cars full of Asian men waiting at the school gates have become just another fact of school life.

    Gemma Meares, schoolgirl:

    “You see a lot of Asian men, driving around in cars and stuff, smoking draw…”

    Channel 4 News:

    “What, coming to the school gates?

    Gemma Meares:

    “Yeah, they are come in and sit in…. with their music pumping and stuff…. ”

    Channel 4 News:

    “What, trying to pick up young girls?”

    Gemma Meares:

    “Impress young girls, yeah.”

    Channel 4 News:

    “Have you seen girls go off with these men?”

    Gemma Meares:

    “Er, yeah, I suppose, I’ve seen lasses getting in cars and driving off with them.”

    We’ve spoken to two mothers whose daughters became involved with these men. The mothers are afraid of what might happen to them if it’s known they’ve spoken out.

    They say they’ve tried to warn their daughters of the dangers these men pose but they believe the men are deliberately targeting impressionable girls some as young as 11 and 12.

    It is claimed the men meet the girls outside the school and offer them cigarettes, drink and drugs, trying to establish a relationship.

    “Julie:”

    “These men are showing you what you see as a good time, tripping off in the cars, driving around in the cars, buying you booze taking you to McDonalds, Burger King throwing money at you., you know like it’s no object and it’s treating you. In the beginning its like a treat. But I used to say to her in the beginning, nothing in life is free.”

    And it’s alleged the girls aren’t always treated well.

    “Mandy:”

    “At the age of 13 she was regularly taken to Bradford to a flat. At this flat she was introduced to Es to speed and GHB. On 5 occasions I had a phone call in the middle of the night. “I’m on a street corner mum I don’t know where I am. I don’t feel too well tonight.”

    The mothers say there’s no question what the men really want — they want sex.

    “Mandy:”

    “We regard this as, they’re paedophiles. It’s a grooming. There’s a grooming process. Paedophiles — a paedophile is a man that likes having sex with a child.”

    There’s no doubting the mothers concern, but their daughters often don’t see any problems with their relationships with these men. And, if the girls are 13 or over the police can’t initiate criminal proceedings without a formal complaint – and often the girls wont do that.

    “Julie:”

    To them, it’s not abuse. To them it’s a laugh. They’re having fun. They’re just having a laugh. Chilling. Why don’t you chill mum?”

    The mothers have given police a list of 57 Asian men who their daughters say are involved. Of course it’s not unusual for young men — of all races — to seek out younger girlfriends. So is the real reason why people are so concerned about what’s happening in Keighley because in this case the men happen to be Asian?

    Kath Tunstall, Bradford Social Services:

    “This is a problem of young men exploiting young girls. Regardless of what the minority background is. If this was white men or black girls that is not the issue for us here. This is a child protection issue that we are all working together to tackle.

    For police and social services the key problem has been the fact that girls often don’t believe they are being exploited.

    Supt. Mark Whyman, West Yorkshire Police:

    “What I want to do with them as a police officer and a father is arrest people who abuse children who are paedophiles and who engage in hat behaviour. The difficulty we have is evidence, we need the girls because of their ages we need them to complain about what’s happening to actually tell us that’s happened to them and to do that in statement form and there’s been a marked reluctance. We’ve carried out a very extensive investigation jointly with social services, we’ve approached the girls who’ve been named and there’s been a marked reluctance among most of them to do that and come forward.”

    That’s despite the fact that according to the two mothers we’ve spoken to sometimes this goes far beyond consensual sex within relationships. Both say their daughters have been gang raped — one at the age of 13.

    “Mandy:”

    “On the fourth or fifth time of them going cruising and having a drink, her and a friend were taken to a flat, the flat door’s locked, sat down drinking, the drink is spiced with GHB. All 4 men — my daughter is taken by all four men in turn. Her whole body was shaking and she couldn’t stop shaking from the effects of the drugs that she were given. My daughter said “You know what will happen mum, if we go to the police, you know what will happen”. And I do know because I’ve had Asian men on the phone to me saying that if I send police to their house one more time then they will petrol bomb my house.

    Supt. Mark Whyman, West Yorkshire Police:

    “The mothers we’ve spoken to say their daughters have been raped, sometimes gang-raped, these are incredibly serious offences are they not, surely there’s something the police can do if there widespread allegations of this kind of behaviour? The difficulty is these are allegations, the evidence is rather thin on the ground. However there are a variety of things we have done we have affected arrests we have arrested an offender for a very serious sexual offence and that will come to court and I’m sure when it’s revealed what’s actually gone on there that there will be preventative aspects. We’re also doing disruptive activity, that means that some of these men are criminals, they are actually known to us anyway they are engaging in other criminal activity and there’s things we can do with them in relation to enforcing the law, perhaps in relation to the misuse of drugs act and in other areas which will help.”

    Meanwhile social services are working with the girls to try to alert them to the dangers. The local MP applauds the work that’s being done but is worried that by maintaining that race is not an issue, police and social services are failing to understand the real nature of the problem.

    Anne Cryer MP, Keighley

    “I believe there is a very strong cultural reason, it’s nothing to do with the religion lets make it quite clear, its to do with the Asian culture, which wants these young men to marry these very young girls from their village, usually in Mayapore, and as with any other young men, they are seeking relationships elsewhere, and the sophisticated white woman wouldn’t have anything to do with them because they understand that at the end of the day, they are just seeking sex not genuine relationships and therefore the only outlet left to them is to look for very young girls through this organised sex ring that we are seeing in Keighley.”

    Anne Cryer’s a controversial figure who’s attracted flak in the past for her position on arranged marriages. The Asian leaders Channel 4 News spoke to unreservedly condemn what’s been happening but they also reject her suggestion of a cultural explanation.

    Khadim Hussain, Community Leader:

    “The statistics show at the moment that its the Asian men and white girls, but the problem isn’t just confined to that group, there are other groups as well. My own information is there are Asian on Asian and white on white not being picked up and we are having discussions with the authorities to actually look at the broader picture and wider picture and try to address the issue as a problem which is not just confined to Asian….”

    Channel 4 News:

    “Well the problem is that in the police investigation all the men the girls were naming were Asian men. I mean, is there some reason, a cultural reason maybe, why Asian men would seek out girls in this way?

    Khadim Hussain, Community Leader:

    “I don’t think so that culture has anything to do with it, if anything we can put a reason behind it is that the fact that if you look at the psychology of these young people, if you do any research, most of those young people are with no skills or with very little skills background. And probably they are they ones who have dropped out of the system.”

    The mothers say the fact the men are Asian isn’t an issue for them — they say they just want this abuse stopped. They met David Blunkett in person to argue that if criminal proceedings can’t be brought because their daughters won’t make complaints to the police then the law needs changing.

    “Mandy”:

    We’ve stuck with it and we’re determined to get a change in the law to enable parents to have the right to be the complainant. When you’re daughter is being used and abused and drugged and raped by these men, this is, at the end of the day, that is what we want out of this. We want a change in the law.”

    Today the Home Office told Channel 4 News that the Criminal Justice Bill currently before Parliament includes provision to make reported evidence or “hearsay” evidence more readily admissible. As far as the mothers are concerned the change can’t come soon enough.

    http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/08/week_4/22_keigh.html

  22. says

    Being sick paedophiles is one thing, but why just pick on the white English girls, and not the Asian ones?? Could there be some other reasons here beyond purely paedophilia???

  23. says

    Ali Dashti, there are several traditions which show muhammad had raped many women, not just Ruyhana.

    Ahmed, it is well docummented the rapes of women by muslims in Places like France, norway denmark and most European countries where there are good numbers.

    Take note also that your sharia laws specifies raping another muslim, not a infidel, which is dealt with much differently.
    marriage is not required to rape a captive slave of what ever a musllims chooses to call his booty.

    Qur’an 24:34 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. [And here’s the freedom-to-pimp card:] But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.”

    Force Ahmed, under any circumstance is rape.

    Qur’an 33:51 “You may have whomever you desire; there is no blame.”

    Ishaq:496 “Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, “Tell the Apostle the truth.'”

    The treatment of women in Islam is after all, just following muhammads ways, right Ahmed?

    Ishaq:311 “The Apostle saw Ummu’l when she was a baby crawling before his feet and said, “I will marry her.’ But he died before he was able to do so.”

    And as far as Muhammad goes, Although the hadith says Aisha was 9, she must have been younger, because she still had a wet nurse. Wet nurses were used in those days so the mother could travel with the husband.

    Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.” Ishaq:281 “When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three.”
    Tabari IX:128 “When the Prophet married Aisha she very young and not yet ready for consummation.”
    Bukhari:V9B87N139-40 “Allah’s Apostle told Aisha, “You were shown to me twice in my dreams [a.k.a. sexual fantasies]. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, “She is yours, so uncover her.” And behold, it was you. I would then say to myself, “If this is from Allah, then it must happen.”‘”

    Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped [breast milk from] my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought in while the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.” [nine year-olds nursing?)

    Defend Islam all you like Ahmed, it is sick and perverted, something that satan would desire.

    Muhammad was a sick twisted, perverted man.

  24. says

    A spokesman for “cleric” Moqtada al-Sadr announced several weeks ago the desire of Sadr’s
    militia to capture female British soldiers for the purpose of making them sex slaves. Despite her injuries American POW Jessica Lynch was raped while in Iraqi custody.American female soldiers were also raped when captured by Iraqi’s in the first gulf war.

  25. says

    It falls under the laws of “booty”, Sheena. Since Islam is at constant jihad war with the infidels, women are just part of the “booty” and as such they can do what they will with them. Therefore raping a captive then letting them go is just part of being a muslim. All perfectly normal in their twisted minds. Muslim women themselves are like farm animals to them, and they are free to “plow into them”. Imagine how much less human an infidel woman is to them.

  26. says

    “Nathan” lied against God Almighty thus:

    > Qur’an 24:34 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. [And here’s the freedom-to-pimp card:] But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.”

    “Freedom-to-pimp card” only in your twisted interpretation. The commentators understand it as meaning that God Almighty is forgiving to the women, not the pimp. (But sins generally, with a tiny number of exceptions, are forgiven if the person concerned is sincere in repentance, but this is not consistent with regarding the second part of this verse as a “freedom-to-pimp card”.)

  27. says

    Hugh-

    Ill make this post short. You continue to talk about tenents in islam, and continue to accuse those who do not do wrong of not knowing their own faith, while the rapists otherwise. This is disgusting to any muslim. Then again, i asked you on three occasions just to proove it to me. Simple as that, yet you have not, you merely post information, while trying vagely to connect the figures to the religion. I once addressed Robert Spencer, on the matter concerning the wars carried out by the USA, and the religion which the leaders who carried out these wars were from, namely christianity. He denied any link, by exclaiming that christianity is free from the sins who follow it, because they did not carry out the attacks in the name of religion. Then again, the rapists did not carry out rape in the name of islam, furthermore, their act is punishable by stoning to death in islam, somthing i have pointed out time and time again, yet you ignore what you cannot handle, and address only what you are capable of, from what i can see, very little.

    “Ahmad, Muhammed HIMSELF raped at least one woman. The Jewish lady Ruyhana had just seen her entire tribe Banu Qurayza, including her husband, slaughtered by Muhammed’s barbarians. And then Muhammed tokk her as his sex slave THE SAME NIGHT. What kind of disgusting human being would do such a thing?”
    My god, i love the twist to this story. What actually happened with regard to the marriage was that Ruhayna had gone to her father (the jewish tribal leader) and had told him of her dream, that a the moon had fallen in her lap. He slapped her and asked her “you wish to marry Muhammed?!” on which she replied yes.
    About the tribe of banu qurayza, if we look at the relationship between the muslims and the jews we see that there were pacts between them. When the prophet warned the jews that they had broken the pact, and that they should excersise restraint, they refused and enternched themselves while the muslims started a siege of their fortification. After two weeks they had surrendered, and on negotiating the terms of surrender the jews feard deportation so they asked the prophet muhammed(PBUH) if the one to judge them could be another man from their allied jewish tribe who had converted, on which the prophet agreed. It was He who ordered the beheading of the 700 men, and the prophet did not object. You may argue that that too was inhumane, however the Prophet was known to be a man who kept to his word, for example, once a meccan who had embraced islam escaped mecca for madinah, fleeing from his torturers. When he arrived at Madinah, the prophet greeted him, and asked of him to return, ordering him to be patient, as he had a pact with the meccans.

    “Take note also that your sharia laws specifies raping another muslim, not a infidel, which is dealt with much differently.
    marriage is not required to rape a captive slave of what ever a musllims chooses to call his booty.”
    That is not true. The only difference with war captives is that they may marry from them.

    “Qur’an 24:34 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. [And here’s the freedom-to-pimp card:] But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.””
    I suggest you read the tafseer. The “Allah is oft forgiving” does not suggest that it is a good deed, but in the sence of the quranic arabic, that let only god forgive them. I suggest you write to Islamonline.net

    “A spokesman for “cleric” Moqtada al-Sadr announced several weeks ago the desire of Sadr’s
    militia to capture female British soldiers for the purpose of making them sex slaves. Despite her injuries American POW Jessica Lynch was raped while in Iraqi custody.American female soldiers were also raped when captured by Iraqi’s in the first gulf war.”
    Link?

    “It falls under the laws of “booty”, Sheena. Since Islam is at constant jihad war with the infidels, women are just part of the “booty” and as such they can do what they will with them. Therefore raping a captive then letting them go is just part of being a muslim. All perfectly normal in their twisted minds. Muslim women themselves are like farm animals to them, and they are free to “plow into them”. Imagine how much less human an infidel woman is to them.”
    Proof, religious commentator, hadeeths, and most of all, proof from the prophets life?

  28. says

    that is quite correct my comments within a hadith or surat are within the [ things]

    did that change the meaning? nope!

    the meaning is, trry not to rape the women, but if you do it’s ok.

    Now, try make that sound better if you can.
    you can’t

    Also take note, that any hadth, tradition surat which contains (these) are those of the cleric, not mine, I use [these]

  29. says

    Ahmad, I guess you are a waste of time, but I’ll try anyway: Muhammed did “go to” Ruyhana the very same day he had slaughtered her husband, drenched the ground outside Medina with the blood of all her male relatives, divided all her female relatives and their children between the Muslims as slaves. Do you know many women who would be happy go to bed with the person who only hours earlier was responsible for decimating ALL the persons she held dear?

  30. says

    Amed, what do you mean, proof?

    If the words of the koran, the life of the prophet isn’t proof for you, what is?

    I can prove the koran to be NOT the word of god, will you read it?

    here, check it out and PROVE ME WRONG!!!

    Ahmad, really, prove this wrong.

    You can’t. So maybe it’s time to realize you have been decieved, brainwashed, and are quite stupid.

    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Goldsack/Sources/index.htm

  31. says

    You see Ahmed, the Quran is not the word of ‘rock god”, in fact it’s based on myth, fairy tale, rumor.

    Therefore, sharia law isn’t based on the word of any god either, rather, it’s based on fairy tale, rumor, myth.

    Mans law however, has more reason and rationale to it.

    Now, if you look at the liberal party of canada, who introduced sharia law, what does this say?
    it says this government is dumb, has lost it’s mind, and has no inteligent people capable of running government within it’s ranks.

  32. says

    Shall I start quoting Ahmed, or are you going to read and answer?

    I do realize that muslims aren’t supposed to use rational thinking, or question the Koran, but, I’m not a dumb muslim, so i can

  33. says

    Ahmed
    I know you are not going to look up the reference materal, which will verify the truth for you. I know you won’t read your own koran material, nor will you read the traditions, or anything else.

    You will continue to believe in the tooth fairy.

    You can’t comprehend that all you were told about Mohammad, Islam is a lie. Well not all lies, Muhammad was an evil man who did do the horrible things he did, but the prophet part is a lie.

    If you believe Muhammad was a prophet, then so was Saddam Hussain.

    Tell me Ahmad, do you believe the earth is flat?
    Just answer a few questions that the koran states.

    Flat earth?

    Sun sets in a pond?

    Lanterns are stars on heavens walls 918 miles above the flat earth?

    A simple objective reading of the koran proves no god wrote that crap.

  34. says

    All women and girls, including toddlers and infants, should prepare to become sexual booty if Islam takes hold in your area. Not only will they take you, they will take your children and even your infants for this purpose. If that doesn’t propel you to rise up and take action, ladies, I can’t see that anything else could.

  35. says

    I am surprised by the amount of time that has been spent by both Nathan and Hugh in particular, to generate so much hate towards Islam and Ahmed I think that you are just wasting your time debating these guys.

    Now I too am about to waist my time by adding to the debate however unlike you Nathan and Hugh I’m not going to attach you and or your beliefs, if in fact you have any? What I can say is that people who say that they believe in Christ have done all the things that you have pointed out about people who say that they are Muslims just the same. It doesn’t matter which faith you are, people are people and they do mean things to each other, even people of the same faith. During the ill-fated Crusades, Christian soldiers killed everyone in their path, Christians, Jews and Muslims alike. Christians castrated and sold their fellow Christians into slavery in the Arab world. Christians in Spain forced Muslim women to become prostitutes after raping them. American soldiers rape fellow female officers, the same way they gang raped a 12 year old Japanese girl in Japan, the same way that they rape Iraqi girls, the same way Christian slave masters raped their male and female slaves. Shall I go on about the Native Americans or South Africa or any place that Christians have gone with a gun in on hand and the Bible in the other?

    And Nathan, this thing about the Quran and the world being flat and no god writing such crap, you need to do your homework before talking crap.
    When Christian Europe still thought the world was flat, Muslim scientists where using globes to plot the course of the stars and to sail around the globe even as far as the New World hundreds of years before Columbus set off for the New World with ships full of Arab technology and Arabs as well.

    Kind regards,

    Philip

  36. says

    Philip:

    We’re not fooled. We know you’re a Muslim. We’ve heard the same nonsense spouted before by your kind.

  37. says

    The dreamy belief — it is a phrase that needs to be reused — that the “Arabs” were responsible for great achievements needs to be studied. The Islamic civilization at its height was mostly a product of non-Arabs, mostly Persians, and non-Muslims, in Baghdad and elsewhere. The most famous “achievements” were those of transmission of the achievements of non-Muslims — transmission of the Hindu zero, transmission of the Chinese invention of paper, transmission (almost entirely by Christian and Jewish translators who knew Greek and Arabic) of Greek texts. But little that was original can be ascribed to Islam. Its influence on the West? One can think of two major influences. Byzantine iconoclasm, which led to the destruction, within Byzantium, of many icons, probably comes from the example of Islam (see Patricia Crone). And the conquest by the Seljuk and then the Ottoman Turks, led to the flow of Greek scholars and manuscripts to Italy, which had much to do with the rediscovery of, and heightened appreciation for, classical antiquity, humanism, and man as the measure, if not of all things, then of many things.

    The fantasies which Muslims allow themselves to believe, about the greatness of their own civilization — which, even if one were to concede, for the sake of argument or so as to appeal to the collective “self-esteem” of Muslims, that it was not without value, it stopped being so about a thousand years ago, when the last significant influence of the Christians and Jews whom the Muslims had conquered and subjugated died out. One cannot think of a single place — not Mesopotamia, nor Syria, nor Judea, nor Egypt nor North Africa, nor Safavid Persia nor Greco-Buddhist Afghanistan, nor Hindu India — that was not made intellectually poorer by the coming of Islam. When Muslims talk about a revival, as the former Malaysian Prime Minister did last year, all they really mean is that they want to have Muslims study technology so as to be able to produce armaments that rival those of the West. That is their idea of achievement. The nature of DNA, the nature of subatomic particles, the mysteries of fractals, chaos theory, De Sitter space, number theory, how we think, or how memory works — these are matters of indifference. Muslims want to know how to make, or get, better weapons.

    As a belief-system, one need only look around to see the political, economic (for sitting on oil reserves) does not constitute economic success), intellecutal and moral failure that is Islam. Please, spare us the fantasies about Columbus’ crew, about the fabulous achievements of the Arabs, and so on. Even if a few people still nod in pro forma pretense that “of course” Islam is a great civilization, the more one studies it, the less one finds any there there, beyond the turbans and tulips of the Ottomans, the roses and bulbuls of Gulistan, the verses of Sa’adi and Omar Khayyam and Firdowsi — who, incidentalloy, were like Averroes and Avicenna, and al-Razi, people who were, to say the least, quite unorthodox in their beliefs and leanings.

  38. says

    Philip:

    Next, you’ll be telling us the Native American tribes were really Muslims!!

    Assuming all the claims made by Muslims about their supposed past achievements are true, what precisely did they do with all this knowledge? Where is their history of continued progress down the centuries? Why the sudden and complete halt?

  39. says

    Northerner:

    “Why the sudden and complete halt?”

    Don’t you already know the answer? Philip will say that somehow the JEWS are responsible!

  40. says

    Ahmad:

    You wanted a link to the story that one of Al-sadr’s henchmen offered that anyone who captures a British female soldier can keep her as a slave? Here you go plus the story; it is all over the web.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4063462,00.html

    Al-Sadr’s Basra Aide Offers Rewards

    Friday May 7, 2004 11:46 AM

    BASRA, Iraq (AP) – A senior aide of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr told worshippers Friday that anyone who captures a female British soldier can keep her as a slave.

    The aide, Sheik Abdul-Sattar al-Bahadli, also called on supporters to launch jihad, or holy war, against British troops in this southern city.

    He offered money for anyone who captures or kills a member of the Governing Council, the widely unpopular interim administration appointed by the U.S.-led occupation 10 months ago.

    Al-Bahadli, al-Sadr’s chief representative in southern Iraq, was speaking in a Friday sermon at al-Hawi mosque in central Basra.

    It was the first time that any anti-occupation activist of note publicly offered financial reward for the killing or capturing of coalition troops. It’s likely to be viewed by occupation authorities with concern at a time of rising anti-occupation sentiment and continuing fighting between al-Sadr’s al-Mahdi Army militia and U.S. forces in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala.

    A wave of kidnappings last month saw scores of foreign nationals snatched by insurgents and shadowy groups across Iraq.

    Al-Bahadli kept an assault rifle next to him as he spoke to an estimated 3,000 worshippers, occasionally lifting it as he screamed “jihad,” and “Allahu Akbar,” or “God is great.”

    He held in his hand what he said were documents and photographs of three Iraqi women being raped at British-run prisons in Iraq.

    He said British forces in Basra have failed to honor agreements not to patrol inside the city and to stop harassing al-Sadr supporters in Basra.

    Al-Bahadli said 250,000 dinars – about $350 – will be given to anyone who captures a British soldier and 100,000 dinars – or $150 – for the killing of one. He also called on government departments in Basra to display pictures of al-Sadr in their offices.

  41. says

    Again the negative attacks without you guys doing your homework and I see that you were all very silent about the issue of the Crusades, Slavery, the Native Americans, and the rape of American female soldiers by their fellow officers etc., and so on. Why can’t you folks just accept the fact that Christians do bad things the same way that Muslims do? I never said that one group is better than the other but that’s how some of you have chosen to read into it.

    As for CGW, please tell what are my kind and what is the nonsense that I’m spouting? To answer your question, no I don’t think that Jews were responsible for any sudden halt to progress down through the centuries. Where did you come up with that idea? The only thing that I said about Jews in my email was that they were killed by so-called Crusaders.

    As for you Northerner, you really need to do some homework. It seems that you along with Hugh have forgotten about the Dark Ages. By the way Northerner, why the sudden halt to European Civilization? Oh, I know it was the Arabs.

    Hugh you talk about the more one studies the more one will learn that there is nothing to “Islamic” civilization, other than a dreamy myth a thing of fantasy based on the achievements of non-Muslims. That little can be ascribed to Islamic civilization, that we have to be thankful to Christian and Jewish scribes who translated Greek texts into Arabic. That in and of itself is a contradiction not to mention that the Greeks claimed to have learned what they did from Africans who were not Greeks, Europeans or Christians. The Dark Ages were a result of European Christianity. What brought Europe out of that darkness was the collective knowledge of non-Europeans under the umbrella of Islamic Civilization which happened to be transmitted in the Arabic language, like Greek before it and English today. That is a fact. This speaks to another point where you contradict yourself again Hugh. You say that there is not one place that was not made intellectually poorer with the coming of Islam yet you say that the great thinkers of Islam were not Arabs, however they used Arabic to transmit their learning and they were Muslims, Jews and Christians living in Arabic and non-Arabic countries.

    “[T]he conquest by the Seljuk and then the Ottoman Turks, led to the flow of Greek scholars and manuscripts to Italy, which had much to do with the rediscovery of, and heightened appreciation for, classical antiquity, humanism, and man as the measure, if not of all things, then of many things.” Hugh what book did you read that in? Go and do some homework about the Norman Empire or the “Stones of Venice” by Ruskin as qouted by Howard in her work, “Venice and the East.” Who wrote the “Book of Roger” which was in Columbus’ book collection in which Idrisi discribed the Earth as being round with a land mass across the Atlantic Ocean in Western Hemisphere called the unknown Earth ie the Americas. I have seen the map in the main branch of the Public Library here in my great city of NY.

    About Columbus’ crew and fantasy, can you tell me why he brought people who could speak Arabic with him? This brings me back to Northerner and “[n]ext you’ll be telling us the Native American tribes were really Muslims!!” What I can tell you is that the Pope had to pass an edict to try and stop the enslavement of African and Spanish Muslim into the New World because when they intermixed with the Indians the Indians were converting to Islam. Northerner do some homework. If you have a library where you live, look for the work of Leo Wiener a Jewish Prof. from Harvard who wrote, “Africa and the Discovery of America”

    That’s all for today.

    Your friend,

    Philip

    As for CGW, please tell what are my kind and what is the nonsense that I’m spouting? To answer your question, no I don’t think that Jews were responsible for any sudden halt to progress down through the centuries. Where did you come up with that idea? The only thing that I said about Jews in my email was that they were killed by so-called Crusaders.

    As for you Northerner, you really need to do some homework. It seems that you along with Hugh have forgotten about the Dark Ages. By the way Northerner, why the sudden halt to European Civilization? Oh, I know it was the Arabs.

    Hugh you talk about the more one studies the more one will learn that there is nothing to “Islamic” civilization, other than a dreamy myth a thing of fantasy based on the achievements of non-Muslims.
    That little can be ascribed to Islamic civilization, that we have to be thankful to Christian and Jewish scribes who translated Greek texts into Arabic. That in and of itself is a contradiction not to mention that the Greeks claimed to have learned what they did from Africans who were not Greeks, Europeans or Christians. The Dark Ages were a result of European Christianity. What brought Europe out of that darkness the collective knowledge that was shared by Christians, Jews and Muslims under the umbrella of Islamic Civilization. That is a fact.

  42. says

    Philip,
    If you look at any one of my posts, and compare that with the replies i get, youll notice that i too get a reply on less than a tenth of what i say, if not less, and usually with irrelevant information

    Hugh-
    With regard to the technological advances by the muslims, there is one thing id like to note, was during the golden era of islam. Popes ruled out advance in knowledge, burnt their literature, and banned their own advance in any of the sciences that muslims where excelling in.
    And wasnt it Muhammed who ordered “seek knowledge even if one has to journey to china”
    Also a look at modern history.
    Prior to the Iraq-Kuwait war, Iraq had the highest PHD per capita in the world (see CIA homepage for references). Today, surprisingly, palestine holds that title.
    And was it not during the golden era of islam (750 to 1050 A.D)that christians had travelled to spain, where islamic universities existed. To the extent that even a number of Popes where taught by muslim scholors (e.g. Pope Sylvester II)
    The main sciences that muslims have however contributed to where math, medicine, boatany, and optics.

    Mentat:-
    I asked for a link proving that Al-sadr offered reward for raping women captured. You have done me a facour by giving me that piece of news, which did not have the extra made up rubbish by the others here! Thankyou!

    Nathan:-
    “I can prove the koran to be NOT the word of god, will you read it?

    here, check it out and PROVE ME WRONG!!!

    Ahmad, really, prove this wrong.

    You can’t. So maybe it’s time to realize you have been decieved, brainwashed, and are quite stupid.”
    Once again, you ignore what i say. I asked you to proove what you say, not proove whether the quraan was the word of god or not.
    Then you call me stuiped, while the intelligence you display is almost nill, and the hate you display leaves little room for a heart deep within you.

    “Now, if you look at the liberal party of canada, who introduced sharia law, what does this say?
    it says this government is dumb, has lost it’s mind, and has no inteligent people capable of running government within it’s ranks.”
    If i examine the good brought by the liberals of canada, they made muslims appreciate them, they created a sence of frendship, theyre winning hearts and stopping wars
    If i look at the behaviour of conservatives in America, i see a figure of around 300 000 dead (not to mention almost a half of whom are civilians), I see a record breaking feeling of anti american and anti islamic feeling world wide, i see a world falling apart, allies becoming enemies, i see al lot of war, i see my home getting demolished, and i swear this to you and to other members my home was demolished, the home that my father had gone to as a refugee escaping askalan in 1948. It had no tunnels, it had no mujahideen, but the entire area was flattened, no not one home on my street. Not to mention a workshop my uncle ran to feed his family, will you laugh at that too? Will you (Robert Spencer) tell me that what i say is the result “of carefull fabrication”?

    “Shall I start quoting Ahmed, or are you going to read and answer?”
    Yes, quote all you like. Your little trouble, and the number of posts you made in reply to my one post shows a sence of fustration, a battle within, each time comming back to say somthing because you couldnt think of anything the first time

    “I do realize that muslims aren’t supposed to use rational thinking, or question the Koran, but, I’m not a dumb muslim, so i can”
    You displayed no facts, you only gave a link to one source, where absolutly nothing was relevant to our “debate” and you do nothing better than look in the better and say “Im the best, i did it, i aint dumb”

    “You will continue to believe in the tooth fairy.”
    This comes from a person whos society revolves around so many fairies id hate to be the one who kept track of him
    The difference between us is i read about his life, from primary sources, i read about how people relate to him, you read islamaphobic articles and books, you will relate to him using your sources, i relate to him using mine.

    “You can’t comprehend that all you were told about Mohammad, Islam is a lie. Well not all lies, Muhammad was an evil man who did do the horrible things he did, but the prophet part is a lie.”
    I can comprehend more that what 100 americans can, because my sources are from every corner of the world, your lives are controlled by your media, the space left for free thinking in minute

    “Flat earth?”
    Certainly no such reference in quraan

    “Sun sets in a pond?”
    Sun sets in the east, refernce?

    “Lanterns are stars on heavens walls 918 miles above the flat earth?”
    (56:75)
    Nay, I swear by the places of the stars –
    76
    And that is indeed a mighty adjuration if ye but knew
    In these two verse god makes it clear that we do not know the postions of the stars, but if we knew we would understand how great it is that he swears by such

    Im interisted in seeing more verses by which you manage to interpret into such

    Philip, i would like you to know that i am not here to convince them, certainly people make up their minds, and dont change. I however enjoy this as a past time, when i can.

    Regards
    Ahmad

  43. says

    Hey Ahmad, or is it AHHH…MAD,I see why
    you men make the woman cover themselves,after
    centuries of inbreeding they look more like
    men.
    Thanks for the Burqa,it hides the mustache
    and pale skin.

    Muhammed did have sex with children,are you
    so blinded by blaming woman for your lack of
    self-control,buy some baby-beef liver and a
    shoe-box,sure beats burning in hell for stoning
    woman to death.

  44. says

    Philip,

    “By the way Northerner, why the sudden halt to European Civilization? Oh, I know it was the Arabs.”

    What are you talking about? If you are referring to the Dark Ages, well considering the Western Roman Empire had collapsed and much of it’s territory had been overrun by tribes from the East, it’s not surprising there wasn’t much in the way of human progress. However, the traditions of classical Greece and Rome lived on in the Eastern Empire, Byzantium, which during this period never suffered the catastrophic collapse of the West, although the Arabs after Mohamed attacked it numerous times, capturing the great centres of learning at Antioch and Alexandria.

    You cannot argue that since the middle ages there has not been a steady progress in all fields of human endeavour in Europe, and that this history of progress has not be reflected in the Islamic world.

    Slavery. You’re joking right? When the founder of your religion personally approved of slavery, then you are in no position to condemn others of its use. Yes we freely acknowledge without any qualification that slavery was wrong, and we finally got round to doing something about it. Without western pressure, would the Islamic world have stopped it’s slave trade of sub Sahara Africa? It’s slave trade from southern Russia into the central Asian stans? Would it have stopped the antics of the Barbary Pirates? What’s the Muslim world doing right now to stop the slave trading in Sudan?

    As for the Crusades, yes the Christians do owe an apology…to the Jews. We owe no such apology to the Muslims, who have never ceased in their crusade against non believers of every stripe.

  45. says

    You know, every-time I scroll down and come to this article I can’t help noticing how much that guy in the picture looks like “spock”

  46. says

    Mentat,

    Is that the best that you can do?

    “Philip: I have news for you. You are mentally ill. Seek help now. You “can” be deprogrammed”

    Yes you are right, I am mentally ill from years of programming by the likes of you. Thanks for your suggestion that I should visit the Cultic Studies website. Having reviewed it, I think that you are the one in need of help because there is no logic to the statement that I’m mentally ill or a cult member because I’ve spent some time to expose some of the holes in the arguements/ideas of Northerner and Hugh. In fact I like Hugh because he’s done some homework unlike most of the people here who are only adding to the distortion of world history that already exists, us verses them the other that we don’t like. It shows in the depth of racism displayed by Mark Windsor which is only reflective of the White man’s self hate. Mark have you ever visited an “Arab” country? Pale skinned women with mustaches that look like men. How did you come up with that? Sounds to me like you’re talking about yourself, Caucasian as in pale skinned caveman from the Caucasus Monutains who populated Europe. The same people who love to have sex with animals, I guess that is why you mentioned beef liver and sex in the same sentence.

    I ask, what is worse a man having sex with a nine year old or a man having sex with a chicken or a woman having a dog mount her? What I do know is that this Bible has this to say about Zoophilia, which is a Greek word, “And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death; and ye shall slay the beast. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall surely be upon them” (Lev. 20.15 – 16)

    Then you’ve got all these priests raping boys and girls in the chuch, I guess you would call it devine love like the sex orgies that the Greeks and Romans are know for. In Rome and Greece archeologists have found alters dedicated to deflowering young women, fertility rituals that were carried out right underneath the foundation of churches.

    To conclude the real issue is not the banning of this film it is the entire sex slave industry that is prostituting young women from all over the world in particular from Eastern Europe and Russia. Organized crime, controlled by White Christian men, controls the trafficking of women in Europe not a handful of Asian pimps.

    -Phil

  47. says

    Phillip
    What a nice parting shot, to conflate “wite” and “christian” with the majority of the sex trade. By doing this you uncover your true self and reveal your motivations. It appears you exist in a world of opositions, wher if your not one of “us” then you must be one of “them”. I am neither, i have no faith whatsoever, in my world their is no such thing as a god or gods, i consign such assertions to the realms of fantasy and myth and for all that i am quite a good person.

    I don’t think it is good protocol to use a comparative argument in that what one work of reconstituted fiction quotes in relation to another piece of rehashed dribble, vis a vi the bible and qu’ran, is anything other than the blind leading the blind. I have no faith but i certainly see how yours blinds you to the injustice of a group of men who are all of Pakistani origin and are all Muslims are preying on a group of young girls who are all white.

    The reason the program was pulled was because the local police said it may lead to “public order isues”. It seems the truth is neither adefence anymore nor a legitimate mesasage for public consumption and may not be quite what the multicultural celebrationists would want us to hear. The only public order issue here is that being committed by those disgusting pimps with their theological and racially driven fixations on young white girls.

    Believe in whatever god you like but don’t include me in your little boxes Phillip because i reject them, your arguments and your faith related justificationism.

  48. says

    “Muhammed did have sex with children”
    Aisha,is a child, not children. And having sex is quite vague, he was married to aisha for a purpose, his other wives were old, and who to relate hadeeths for the next generation better than his own wife? And so she did, Aisha is the one who taught the women of the time, and related to them the hadeeths.
    Furthermore, ive said this before, there is a cultural difference which many Americans are ignorent of. To them there is one standard for democracy, justice, and culture. While in our culture one marries at an early age, as in our culture that is prefereabele because we do not engage in secual activities prior to marriage, this is not so in the western culture when sex before marriage is more or less the norm.
    Also, how does a christian argue when he is told that his Prophet (god) was in love with a prostitute, certainly ive seen this argument before (not by muslims).

    “Slavery. You’re joking right? When the founder of your religion personally approved of slavery”
    Approved? No he did not whatsoever, quite the opposite.
    “Without western pressure, would the Islamic world have stopped it’s slave trade of sub Sahara Africa?”
    This is where you are ignorent of Islam. There are a number of points i would like to make. Primarily in Islam there is a Bayt Ul Maal (house of money) Where 2.5% of everyones (apart from those who are below the poverty line) years savings are collected and deposited into (Zakat for muslims, Jizya for non muslims)
    The Bayt Ul Maal has the funtion of distributing the money to the less fortunate in all fields. The money is divided acording to fixed percentages, and 2.5% of bayt ul maals money is for the FREEING of slaves. That is one point.
    The other is the many forms of repentance which include the freeing of slave, for example:-

    book 46 number 695 narrated asma bint abu bakr the prophet ordered us to free slaves at the time of solar eclipses

    volume 3 book 46 number 698 narrated abdullah bin umar allah s apostle said whoever frees his share of a common slave and he has sufficient money to free him completely should let its price be estimated by a just man and give his partners the price of their shares and manumit the slave otherwise

    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 712:
    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:
    Allah’s Apostle forbade the selling or donating the Wala’ of a freed slave.

    It is also clear also if one looks towards history that in America the black population resorted to violence to achieve their liberation, and the end of segrecation only came through resistance, you never gave it to them, they took it from you. To say that pressure is what made us end our own slave trade comes out of ignorence. America also has the worst record, even till today, with regard to segrecation, as everything is in theory, while what is practiced is far from theory. There is a slave trade in sudan, there is one in America too. And ofcourse other countries that suffer from illegal sex trade (e.g. russia, israel) but can you say that they do not do anything to stop, certainly one cannot control everything.

    “We owe no such apology to the Muslims, who have never ceased in their crusade against non believers of every stripe”
    I wonder if youd say that once youve read the full horrors of the crusades.

    Regards
    Ahmad

  49. says

    Ahmad

    “America also has the worst record, even till today, with regard to segrecation”

    Worse then Saudi Arabia? Am I, as a non-muslim, allowed go where I want in that country? Doesn’t Islam practice segregation between men and women, Muslim and non-Muslim? At least things in the west are not static, and bad conditions do actually improve over time. Can you say the same about Islamic societies?

    “I wonder if youd say that once youve read the full horrors of the crusades.”

    Perhaps you should learn a little bit about your religions’ assault on India and its slaughter of Hindus before lecturing me on crusades.

  50. says

    You can beat your drum all day about the traditions of Greece and Rome. That seems to be the only thing that you and your white racists friends have to hold onto in terms of Europeans and a connection to the great civilizations of the past. What it shows is that you don’t do your homework, that you are just regurgitating what you have read and or been taught in school that aligns with your prejudiced beliefs which has also turned you into a hypocrite.

    I’ll use your own words to show that you are a prejudiced hypocrite.

    “What are you talking about? If you are referring to the Dark Ages, well considering the Western Roman Empire had collapsed and much of its territory had been overrun by tribes from the East”

    There would be no Roman “Empire”, the key word here being “Empire” had not the Holy Romans gone out and conquered other peoples and lands. That means they killed a lot of people so-called Barbarians and occupied their territory, but that’s ok. Just like it was ok for Europeans to colonize Africa, the Middle East, the New World and Asia in the name of Christ.

    Then you state that tribes from the East overran much of the Roman Empire’s territory as if that was the cause of the Dark Ages. Do you really expect me to believe that and while you are at it which Eastern tribes are you talking about and what part of the Empire did they colonize?

    “The traditions of classical Greece and Rome lived on in the Eastern Empire, Byzantium, which during this period never suffered the catastrophic collapse of the West, although the Arabs after Mohamed attacked it numerous times, capturing the great centres of learning at Antioch and Alexandria.”

    So if I follow your line of reasoning it was ok for Holy Roman Empire to take over parts of Asia Minor but not the Arabs and if my memory serves me correctly Alexandria is in Africa not Europe. Let’s go a little further into your argument because you would have me believe that it was the coming of Islam that lead to the collapse of Byzantium. It seems that you have forgotten about the Gothic wars, the Slavs and the Vandals, one of the Germanic tribes, which is where the word vandalize comes from. They sacked Rome in 455 AD. Neither is Antioch part of Europe, and yes the Arabs did conquer Antioch, as did the Turks after them who were only taking back what had been taken by invaders from Rome and Greece but you don’t see that way do you?

    “Slavery. You’re joking right? When the founder of your religion personally approved of slavery, then you are in no position to condemn others of its use.”

    I’m working on a documentary film about slavery in the Islamic World so don’t even bother to go there with me and yes I am in a position to condemn those who practiced it the same way that Europeans,

    “Finally got round to doing something about it.” Of course you got around to doing something about it because it was much more profitable to colonize and steal the wealth of other people under the guise of civilizing the heathens, bringing them to Christ and the European way of life. You and your romantic ideas about Western pressure, shall I remind you that, the sun never sets on the British Empire? There’s that word again “Empire.” Shall we talk about the Belgium Congo, and the exploits of King Leopold or the Dutch East India Company, the Portuguese and the Spaniards, please don’t get me started. All Christian Kingdoms visiting death and destruction upon each other let alone the “other” peoples’ of the world. But that is normal because this is in the “classical tradition of the Romans” and the Holy Roman Empire.

    The other thing that leads to the closing of the Slave trade, which did not end over night, and faced with a great deal of resistance (the American Civil War, KKK, etc.), where the Slaves many of whom were Muslim started revolting against their White (YES Mr. Wes from England) Christian slave masters.

    “Would it have stopped the antics of the Barbary Pirates?” I don’t even know why you bothered to throw that in, but it shows your one sided understanding of Mediterranean politics during the age of discovery. You should read the work of Matar, “Turks, Moors and Englishmen.” As a side note the word Admiral passed into European languages from contact with Muslims. The emblem of the US Marine Corps, the sword is a Barbary sword. The US was created because the British would not protect America ships from the Barbary Pirates. It’s from the Barbary Pirates as well as the Ottoman Pirates that Europeans learned a number of things about Naval warfare and Navigation. The funny thing about the Barbary Pirates is that a number of Europeans sold themselves into the service of these Pirates because the pay was good. That being said Europe also had her fair share of Pirates working the high seas from Africa to the Americas. There is some truth to blockbuster film, “Pirates of the Caribbean.”

    “What’s the Muslim world doing right now to stop the slave trading in Sudan?”

    First of all the problems that exist in the Sudan are a direct result of British colonization. No I’m not say that that justifies what’s taking place in the Sudan I think that it’s disgusting. But this is just another part of the game played by Europeans to divide and conquer people. The southern part of the Sudan is where the oil is. That’s right I said OIL. But to answer your question, no the Muslim world isn’t doing much about slavery in the Sudan nor the ethnic cleansing that is being carried out by the Sudanese government. Again I think that it’s sick but you have no idea what goes on when it comes to oil politics.

    The Middle East and Central Asia/Eastern Russia are all screwed up today because of the effects of Euro-American oil politics that were carried out by the British in particular and now America, Iraq and Afghanistan need I say more. The term shock and awe, I’m sure that you are familiar with it, however Bush didn’t coin that term the British did when they occupied Iraq in 1918 or should I say when they created the country of Iraq.

    “As for the Crusades, yes the Christians do owe an apology…to the Jews. We owe no such apology to the Muslims, who have never ceased in their crusade against non believers of every stripe.”

    So you are incriminating yourself in stating that we, meaning that you are a Christian owe no apology to Muslims whom you killed during the Crusades because they deserved it. What kind of logic is that? Again hate and prejudice. The funny thing that you said about the Crusades is that the Christians owe an apology to the Jews, what about all the Christians that were also killed by the Crusader Knights? One thing is for sure; Muslim armies protected both Jews and Christians during the Crusades but you don’t want to hear about that part of history, nor do you want to hear about Cardinal Ximenes who burned thousands of Arabic books during the Inquisition. Entire libraries full of knowledge thrown to the flames and people burned at the stake. Why because of intolerance and now that intolerance is back in full swing on all sides.

    Now to address your remarks Wes from England, let’s get real. I will first start with, why are there men of Asian origin in the UK? For that matter as Tziona, has pointed out, why are there any people of color in the UK? Those good old British colonies. Some of you have a real short memory and refuse to acknowledge the kind of brutal things that you meted out to the subjects of the Crown who were not White and certainly not Christian with a few exceptions and even still they too were treated with the same kind of brutality. Look what Mussolini did to the Ethiopians and in the process created another divide and conquer pitting the Ethiopians against the Eritreans.

    Second why have you singled out, “a group of men who are all of Pakistani origin [who] are all Muslims preying on a group of young girls who are all white?” Did you see this on the news, have you seen these men yourself, did you talk with them? I know the demographic make up of the Asian community in the UK so please don’t use that as an argument to say that it’s Pakistanis who are committing these crimes. In fact the total minority population of the UK is 6.4% according to the British Council. Do the math and tell me something different from what I said about White Christians and organized crime? When you are finished go and read, “Stolen Lives: Trading Women into Sex and Slavery” by Sietske Altink or see if you can find the documentary film “Stolen Lives.”

    Sorry Mr. Wes, I’m not sitting behind my desk crafting “reconstituted fiction…of rehashed dribble”, maybe you are, nor have I put you in a box or used faith as a justification for my arguments. How did you arrive there?

    Now you want to talk about the “us” then you must be one of “them.” I’m not even going to go there or should I quote Mr. Bush, “You are either with us or against us.” No I’m not going to go there because he’s White and Christian and leading a Crusade as he calls it. I’ll go secular about something in your backyard, “us” or “them” In the UK, black women are twice as likely to possess qualifications above A level in comparison to white women, yet they earn less per hour on average than white women. That’s from the Employment Policy Institute. Northerner, can you put some pressure on someone to fix that problem? I said someone because I don’t want to be accused of conflating.

    Once again I state, the child sex industry is unacceptable by whoever participates no matter what ethnicity or professed religion or lack they’re of as well as men preying on innocent girls.

    Personally think that that you guys should spend more time doing something to actually help stop the trafficking in women instead of having a battle over what age Muslims choose to marry. Why are many of you so bothered by this? You should be worried about what’s happening within your own society, which is full of child molesters, incest, child prostitution and child pornography. By the way, in the classical traditions of Greece and Rome, go and read the works of Plutarch, Petronius and Seutonius on sexual intercourse with boys and girls you might learn why you have this problem in your society and if I follow Hugh’s line of reasoning the Muslims learned this practice from the Greeks and Romans. If the shoe fits wear it.

    I know that you don’t like me to say this Mr. Wes but the truth is, is that unlike you most white people are prejudiced and or ignorant of their own past and or don’t care to learn about their past. It’s not a pretty past so it’s easier to put down other people and deny them a place within the scheme of human development, to deny that they ever did anything positive or contributed anything positive to the advancement of what we like to call civilization.

    Stop the hate, increase the peace,

    Philip

  51. says

    Errata

    The US * Navy * was created because the British would not protect America ships from the Barbary Pirates.

  52. says

    This one is for, El, Vivi, Hugh, Ali and especially you Mentat since you like to quote things from the Guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,3604,1220673,00.html

    In November last year, Swadi visited a woman detainee at a US military base at al-Kharkh, a former police compound in Baghdad. “She was the only woman who would talk about her case. She was crying. She told us she had been raped,” Swadi says. “Several American soldiers had raped her. She had tried to fight them off and they had hurt her arm. She showed us the stitches. She told us, ‘We have daughters and husbands. For God’s sake don’t tell anyone about this.

  53. says

    I can’t express the general depth of my contempt for the “veracity” of anything published in al-Guardian.

    But: “She told us, ‘We have daughters and husbands. For God’s sake don’t tell anyone about this” suggests clearly the woman’s concern for the inevitable honour killing(s) flowing from her alleged rape. An all-to-common practice in Arab Mohammedan societies- and transplanted even to Canada by Mohammedan immigrants (se: the Farah Khan butchery in Toronto).

    I’m pleased “Philip” has joined this BBS- along with Reza, here’s the unvarnished, programmed mindset of the Mohammedan cultist.

  54. says

    Anyone else find it fascinating how this thread and the exposure of the sex crimes of Muslim men particularly in the West has caused Muslims males to react? I’ve also noted the desperate attempts by these same Muslim men to change the topic of the thread in an effort to divert attention from the sex crimes of Muslim males.The reality is the French headscraf ban is a direct result of gang rapes committed by Muslim male immigrants.

  55. says

    “Worse then Saudi Arabia? Am I, as a non-muslim, allowed go where I want in that country? Doesn’t Islam practice segregation between men and women, Muslim and non-Muslim? At least things in the west are not static, and bad conditions do actually improve over time. Can you say the same about Islamic societies?”
    As a non muslim, i assure you you may travel as you like in Saudi Arabia. More so, should you be stopped by police (as there are check points everywhere after the may 2003 bombings) and have proof of American/British (or a number of other western countries) they we’ll let you go without having to check your Iqama (Temporary residence permit)
    Islam practices segrecation between men and women, but this is in strong contrast, with regard to the reasons, to the USA. Islam segrecates because of the nature of Men and women, to prevent all the immorality that stems in the west, this is the pure motive, while in the USA its segrecation because of the belief in being a superiour race, or colour/national racism. They are clearly different.
    Islam does not segrecate non muslims and muslims, it does offer non muslims a place for them selves, but this is in consideration that they do not adhere to the same laws as we do.
    Take for example the hadeeth whereby the two jews (a man and a women) who had commited adultry. As the prophet could not impose sharia on them, he first questioned what their own books had to say with regard to the punishment for adultry. Then he had them bring their own book to see for himself what it said. He punished them accordingly.

    I lived in Saudi, and my home is there (i am temporarily elsewhere). There are compounds (e.g. hamra, haras watani, mamlakah) and these compounds house forign residents. There is alcholic drinks, no segrecation, women may drive, and all the other things which is so common in the west. This is something that the population is extremely aware of, and acceptable of. I, because of my forign nationality, have lived in one of these compounds.
    “Perhaps you should learn a little bit about your religions’ assault on India and its slaughter of Hindus before lecturing me on crusades.”
    There is no comparison. I do not know where to start on this, but i assure you I will look into my own peoples history soon (i have read much, and particularly about saladin, whom i can say is one of the worlds most tolerant and mercifull rulers, and i do not say this just because i am muslim, but because it is what i truly feel. Read “Warriors of god”)

    Earl, bring proof that islam allows honour killings, there is none. (quite the opposite)

    Further more, the fear does not stem from honour killings, but from shame. Certainly i cannot be sure, but my experience allows my judgment to rule over yours.

    Philip, im impressed, theyve just given up and stopped replying at the sight of the information presented in your posts.

    Regards
    Ahmad

  56. says

    Ahmed,

    Aren’t these compounds in Saudi Arabia there because of the need for western labor? Without the compounds isn’t it true Saudi’s couldn’t attract the western talent needed to run their society? In the US seperate but equal is consider inherently unequal yet this is a virtue in Islam? Weren’t the western compounds in Saudi Arabia the subject of terrorist bombings by so-called tolerant Saudi’s? How many compounds in the west in which Muslims live have been subjected to truck bomb attacks? Aren’t Muslims allowed to live freely in the west without any restriction to special compounds?If Saudi Arabia is really a tolerant society why have there been reports of Christians being jailed for practing their religion in private?Why is it punishable by death in Saudia Arabia if a Christian converts a Muslims to Christianity? If this is not true why was a high US official required to receive special permission to receive communion and read the Bible in a private home in Saudi Arabia?The truth is Muslims enjoy freedoms in western societies that they never extend to non-Muslims unless for they have selfish reasons
    (eg the compounds in SA).

  57. says

    Lily:

    Don’t you know by now that Muslims will never answer your questions directly or truthfully? It’s called taqiyya.

  58. says

    Dear Earl,

    Thanks for your wonderful analysis of the unvarnished programmed mindset of the Mohammedan cultist. You and Mentat think alike; perhaps your mindset is pre- programmed along with his to cough it up to, cultic beliefs and brain washing.

    Now Earl since you think that these women don’t want to be exposed for fear of being killed, let me ask you a question. Have you ever been raped? I’ve worked with rape victims therefore I have an idea of the psychological impact of such a hideous crime and the way in which the criminal justice system works in which women are lead to believe that it is their own fault that they were raped. There is also the shame that is associated with rape that prevents most women from even talking about it. However you walk away with, “suggests clearly the woman’s concern for the inevitable honour killing(s) flowing from her alleged rape.” Of course you had to throw in the alleged part maybe because you don’t want to believe that Iraqi women are actually being raped. Not only are they being raped by the occupying forces, incidents of rape by Iraqi men on Iraqi women have increased since the havoc that has been visited upon Iraq.

    Yes, Happy Infidel I do agree with you that the thread has gotten derailed but that’s what happens when you have someone like Northerner says, “when your religion is founded by someone with the morals of Attila the Hun and Al Capone, you end up with Islam!” which then degenerates into, Muslims are pedophiles it’s approved by their religion and that’s why they prey on little white girls, what do you expect?

    Then you have someone like Lily chime in with, “wasn’t the move to ban headscarves in public in France a result of the gang rapes by Muslim men of Muslim women who refused to wear the hijab? It appears that rape is allowed in the Islamic “faith.” Let’s assume for a minute that the reason for banning headscarves in France is based on gang rapes, than millions of women in the Muslim world should be dead as a result of honor killings, because millions of women don’t wear hijab in the Muslim world. Thanks for helping me out on this one Earl. It is clear that you Lily don’t know any of the background related to the banning of hijab in France. It started with a primary school teacher who was accused of influencing her students to become Muslims because she wore it and taught in a public school not to mention the level of prejudice that French people have towards non-French whatever colour they are.

    Then El and Ali jump in with their gang-rape stories to paint a picture of these bad boy immigrant jihadi Muslims who run around raping women, yet you Ali point out that rape in France is so common that it is banal. Sounds to me like the French have a problem beyond the ghettos of Marseille. Shall we now visit the French record in Algeria, Morocco, Senegal, Egypt or Hattie?

    I don’t think that you would like me to bring up the countless number of women that were prostituted by the French during their time in Algeria. Shall we talk about the hundreds of nude pictures that they took of Moorish women and girls, which they turned into postcards and mailed to their friends? Did someone mention something about the pictures of naked female detainees’ in Iraq? What’s wrong with this picture? People are shocked they can’t believe the pictures that are coming out of Abu Graib prison. Should I remind you Mr. Wes that good Christian white folks used to lynch black men, have a picnic with their wife and kids take pictures and mail then to their friends. There’s a trend here, that’s what’s wrong with this picture. Bush gets on TV and says, this is not the American way of life we don’t do stuff like that. Tell that to the parents of the hundreds of people killed in police custody every year, not to mention all of the rapes that take place in American jails. What’s going on in Iraq is no different than what happens to people here in America. It’s nothing more than Modus Operandi or as they say on the streets’ of NY business as usual.

    I do agree with you Hugh that there is a problem with far to many of Muslim immigrants in Europe who are freeloading off of the system as well as getting involved in criminal activity. My sister lives in Holland and she’s not happy about the amount of money that is taken from her income to support these immigrants. I couldn’t agree with her more. Needless to say I’ve been to Holland as well as other European countries and I see what’s going on and I ask myself time and again why do you keep letting immigrants in if they are such trouble makers? It’s a very complicated situation that I don’t have an answer too but what I can say is that many immigrants go to Europe with this idea that they are going to live the good life that they see on TV or in the movies however when they reach Europe the streets aren’t paved with gold and they end up marginalized outside of society and become part of the underground society that exists already.
    We have the same problem here in NYC and it’s not just Arabs and Hugh why do you even bother to mention, “Muslim drug dealers, who are “violating” Islam, nonetheless have been known in Europe to donate part of their receipts to their local mosques, a fascinating way to buy their way back to Paradise — consistency is not their strong suit in this matter.” I think it was Northerner who mentioned Islam and Al Capone in the same sentence. Yes I’m being sarcastic because the Italian Mafia used to do a lot of business with the Pope. King Henry however couldn’t do business with the Pope so he created the Church of England.

    Now Mr. Happy Infidel do you think Hugh got way off the subject with his Orientalist discourse and statements like, “Islam has much more in common with the political totalitarianism of the Nazis or the Communists” that, “not everyone is content to blindly accept the propaganda of Nazism, Communism, or for that matter Islam.” That’s not changing the topic is it?

    Now Ali, Lily and El, listen close because Hugh has made an excellent observation that speaks directly to part of the problem with some of the Muslim youth in France. Hugh states, “there are Muslims, who have lived in the West for decades and who deplore, or are unacquainted with, the teachings of Islam, and do not realize the full malevolence of them.” These same Muslims haven’t instilled any values in their children and they group up to be just as wild as other European teenagers. In my travels around Europe I go to the ghettos and hang out with some of the bad boys from Turkey and Egypt, anyone from Germany knows what I’m talking about, and I get a feel for what’s happening in the streets.
    Perhaps one of the reasons why some of you in Europe are so scared is because your white Christian daughters are dating guys from Morocco and the Moroccan parents are just as bothered by the fact that their daughters are dating Europeans. Here in America white Christian women used to be murdered for dating a black man, God forbid if she was pregnant, they would cut her belly wide open and then castrate her lover before killing him. Did someone mention something about honor killing? It’s too bad that all the European men who have raped women of color all around the world haven’t met a similar fate.

    Hugh and Ali; I’ve got bad news. There are a lot of blind people out there who have lived through the White man’s hell not Khomeini’s, maybe that’s why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the World. CGW I wonder why that is? I think it’s called taqiyya. What I do know is that I haven’t made up anything that I’ve presented in the thread and if I’ve lied about something please bring it to my attention and that’s an open request to all of you.

    Thanks for your time,

    Philip

  59. says

    “Aren’t these compounds in Saudi Arabia there because of the need for western labor?”
    The American industry depends on forigners, it is only natural that you will have foringers living in your country. These compounds where erected for the forign poplulations living in Saudi, that includes every nationality including other Arabs. Its not a question of wether they were doing it only because of the needed talent, but the Government states that forigners may live in such compounds as they are not subject to sharia. It is a preferable manner to subjecting others who are not muslim to sharia. Also, please read the hadeeth I provided(earlier) with regard to the Prophet Muhammeds (PBUH) outlook on this.
    This is a good link, i assure you you will find reassurances of what i said in this:-
    http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=81396

    “Without the compounds isn’t it true Saudi’s couldn’t attract the western talent needed to run their society?”
    Not at all. Considering the pay, I couldnt agree any less. Why is it you cannot accept that any good may come from Saudi Arabia? Further more, there are chinese laborours who would be happy to do it otherwise, and we are all aware that the chinese are as sophisticated as Americans in the fields that Saudi Specialises in. Also, there is an abundance of talent in the Arab world, but a lack of funding due to ongoing wars or sanctions. I mentioned earlier how Iraq had the highese PHD per capita in the world prior to the gulf war, and how today Palestine holds that title.

    “In the US seperate but equal is consider inherently unequal yet this is a virtue in Islam?”
    For one, i care little about theory. Your practice is far from that of your theory. Further more you ignored the fact i mentioned that foriners in saudi may choose to live in these compounds. And it is natural that they may wish to live in these compounds. And it is not a virtue of islam as you claim, please proove that to me.

    “Weren’t the western compounds in Saudi Arabia the subject of terrorist bombings by so-called tolerant Saudi’s?”
    Compounds full of muslims were targeted too. However, there is, today, confusion amongst muslim populations as to what is a legitamite target, and what isnt. Certainly Islam forbids attacking those whom the country protects, it subjects, regardless of race,religion, or creed.

    “If Saudi Arabia is really a tolerant society why have there been reports of Christians being jailed for practing their religion in private?”
    Because they must have encountered the Matawaa, i asure you, the population of saudi arabia likes them no more than anyone else. They belong to the government, whos rule in the first place is an unislamic one (Islam forbids monarchies, there is no Majlis shura (elected elders to represent the society))
    Further more, islam does not forbid one practicing his religion in private, i do not justiy all the actions of the Saudi Government, certainly they are no friend of their population, i do, howvere, defend asspects of it.

    “Why is it punishable by death in Saudia Arabia if a Christian converts a Muslims to Christianity?”
    The same concept as executions of agents who turned their backs on their governments, or spied for other nations. The same law is detailed in the torah and old testement, but their is no christian state to enforce the blasphemy law.

    “If this is not true why was a high US official required to receive special permission to receive communion and read the Bible in a private home in Saudi Arabia?”
    I decline to believe this story without proof. I know someone (will not go any more specific) whom is a practicing christian in Saudi. Further more, they asked me to bring them a copy of the passion of the christ from where i live, and i did, without any worries. Therefore, i find it highly unlikely that diplomats would require such permissions, they have special green license plates with indicate immunity from police, and have special rights, such as the right to bear arms, or travel in bullet proof vehicles, etc… Also, they live in an area known as the “Diplomatic Quarters” which is by far more free and isolated than any of the compounds. ‘

    “The truth is Muslims enjoy freedoms in western societies that they never extend to non-Muslims unless for they have selfish reasons
    (eg the compounds in SA).”
    At least we do not accuse our leaders of giving into western demands as does Robert Spencer accuse anyone giving muslim minorities rights to suite their own culture “Dhimmis”. Also, if it is selfish, wright to the Saudi Government (a letter to your local consulate) demanding that all US and forign citizens be placed inbetween the arab populations. I have no objections.

    “Don’t you know by now that Muslims will never answer your questions directly or truthfully? It’s called taqiyya.”
    Why dont you answer any of our questions before you even start about the truth. Your leader lied himself into presidency, and into war. Your other leader was an adulter.
    Taqiyah, ive been pointing out lie after lie, baseless arguments, and you use a word to back up your claim that I/other muslims lie. Nice…

    Regards
    Ahmad

  60. says

    Ahmed

    Seperate but equal is inherently unequal, so it’s irrelevant if there are special compounds for westerners in Saudi Arabia.I’m certain if Muslims were placed is special compounds in the US we would immediately hear cries from Muslims of discrimination.Since westerns are leaving Saudia Arabia after being murdered and dragged through the streets. I guess we’ll soon find out if there are Chinese eager to live and work in Saudia Arabia. People have been interviewed on American television who claimed to have been imprisoned for practicing Christianity in a private home in Saudia Arabia.Islam is the only faith I know that punishes people with death for converting a Muslim to another faith. The death penalty does not exist in any western country for converting a Christian to Islam. A US official did have to obtain special permission to receive communion and read the Bible in Saudia Arabia.You can believe that statement or not, I was raised a Christian not a Muslim. I was taught that lying is wrong so I do not practice taqiyya.As for your statements about “The Passion” it’s been reported that the film was approved for viewing in Saudia Arabia. There have also been articles written about the popularity of “The Passion of the Christ” in the Islamic world. These articles point out that the films popularity among Muslims is tied to their preception that the film is antisemtic not to any interest in Jesus or his teachings.

  61. says

    Dear Lily,

    I do agree with you that SA has it’s problems however there was a need to have separate cities for Westerners away from the general Muslim population for obvious reasons. Westerners have a lifestyle that is very different from the general population of SA. I don’t know the details nor would I be able to point you in a direction to research this but what I’ve been told is that while the US troops were stationed in SA there was a demand for women, prostitutes. Where there is a demand for something you’ll find a supply. Instantly the sex trade goes up, Muslim as well as non-Muslim women are being prostituted and of course it will have an impact upon the general population. As a side note some of these prostitutes return back home with a nice financial situation, which is why a lot of women go in the first place. There was also a demand for alcohol so a trade developed in that. What happens next, it spills over into the general population and as you know alcohol and sex outside of marriage are forbidden in Islam. The Saudi government in creating these non-sharia cities to accommodate Western norms created a problem within the heart of Islam and it goes back to the 1930s with Armco. In Iran and the Gulf States a similar situation was created with companies like BP dating from the turn of the century. This also led to the destruction of the Ottoman Empire and created a situation in which Herzl a European could develop a plan to colonize Palestine and Egypt. The British even offered him Uganda in 1903 as a Jewish homeland. Another guy by the name Baron Hirsch also a European created the Jewish Colonization Association in 1891 to establish colonies in various parts of North and South America. Interestingly Hirsch along with the majority of Rabbis never supported the creation of a Jewish State in the Holy Land.

    Yes Lily you are right, today there are no Western countries that have a death penalty for people who convert but that’s another story for another day. What I would like to point out to you is that the Quran does not state that Muslims who convert should be killed. In fact the Quran says, that there is no compulsion in religion. Perfect example, Tarik Aziz a Christian and Saddam’s right hand man. Saladin the guy who protected both the Jews and the Christians in Palestine had a Christian Lieutenant in his army.

    Lily you also mention compounds and how Muslims would be outraged if they were placed in them in the US. It’s not a stretch of the imagination (what happened to the Japanese?), not to mention the special registration program for immigrant Muslim males. According to a CNN Gallup poll 49% of the people interviewed believe that all Arabs even Arab Americans (some of who are Jewish and Christian) should have to carry special ID cards.

    “Since westerns are leaving Saudi Arabia after being murdered and dragged through the streets. I guess we’ll soon find out if there are Chinese eager to live and work in Saudi Arabia.” Do you know how the Chinese arrived in the North America and the Caribbean? Do you know how they were treated while building America’s transcontinental railroad or what happened after they finished working on the railroad? You should read the history of Angel Island, which was a detention center for Chinese immigrants or all the laws that were put in place to prevent the same people who built the railroad from becoming part of the American dream.

    I couldn’t agree with you more SA has a terrible human rights problem as do most of the Governments that America backs, and America is no different, it’s just disguised differently.

    Have a great weekend,

    Philip

  62. says

    “Seperate but equal is inherently unequal, so it’s irrelevant if there are special compounds for westerners in Saudi Arabia.I’m certain if Muslims were placed is special compounds in the US we would immediately hear cries from Muslims of discrimination.”
    Please read my post again, i said they had the choice to live i the compouds or otherwise. You seem to have either misread, or igored that fact.

    “since westerns are leaving Saudia Arabia after being murdered and dragged through the streets. I guess we’ll soon find out if there are Chinese eager to live and work in Saudia Arabia.”
    It dosnt stop the contractors from going to Iraq, and the danger relative to iraq is egligible. Also the compouds are usually very well fortifies with taks and humvees outside them, and road blocks to prevernt penetratio by cars. There are a few smaller compouds with less fortification. Hamra, mamlakah and the other larger compounds are impossible to infiltrate.

    “Islam is the only faith I know that punishes people with death for converting a Muslim to another faith.”
    Im glad you mentioned “I know of” bit. Yes, the same punishment is in Christianity ad judaism (read najam, old testement) as well as other non Abrahamic religions (to my knowledge, hinduism, and zoratsian)
    It is not practiced in the west because the west is ruled by secular governments, not because their faith is more lineant than islams. Also, what the blasphemy law in islam is limited to outright abodoning of faith, in christianity/judaism its for denying petyfull things.

    “A US official did have to obtain special permission to receive communion and read the Bible in Saudia Arabia”
    I asked for proof, you once again failed to provide any

    “I was taught that lying is wrong so I do not practice taqiyya”
    I was taught lying was a major sin. I was taught o such thing as taqiyah, i was told that lying is permissible in three cases
    *. To end a dispute betwee two people by telling them that the other said somthing good about him
    *When prisoner of war, and lying is essential
    *When someone asks you what you think of somthing (e.g. their hair, or some ew cloths)
    I was not taught that lying to misguide others is permissible, as you anti islamists would like others to believe.
    As for the christian faith, there are little laws, salvation is through faith (according to paul, founder of moder christianity) Every year we see priests add, edit what the religion says to suite their time. Christians ca engage in whatever they like, so long as it isnt done in the name of their faith.
    For example, robert specer is a supporter of bush and the war in iraq. Whe i pointed out to him figures (14million people killed by the usa i last half cetury) and facts (the wars america went to for imperialist/special interest) he said that christiaity is free of such faults, as it is not don in the name of christianity, yet as a christian supports them. This is hypocricy, and a strategy of whitewashing may conservative christians of the sins ad crimes they commited.

    “As for your statements about “The Passion” it’s been reported that the film was approved for viewing in Saudia Arabia.”
    Proof? No, it is strictly forbidden in SA. Stop making up stuff to win the argument.
    And its popularity is due to the media coverage. Few teenagers and the people who wish to view it most are politically convcerned.

    Regards
    Ahmad