White House: Abuse of Iraqis Won't Be Tolerated

We had a similar problem with Canada's mission to Somalia ten years ago. Absolute breakdown in leadership. The Airborne Regiment was (needlessly) disbanded as a result of maltreatment and execution of Somali prisoners.

Enlisted personnel are only as good as their officers and non-coms. The key in this case in Iraq is to nail the officers and non-coms- hard.

The officers in charge should be drummed out of the service after very public courts-marshal. Quite apart from the fact that a "hearts and minds" campaign in Iraq is utterly futile, this stupidity will now be broadcast on al-Jazeera ad nauseum, otherwise distracting the American war effort.

I don't doubt that this awful thing was done; but why were there sacks over the men's heads? There was such glee on the faces of the soldiers! Disguisting! This is not the way to behave! Maybe they should have put sacks over their own heads.

I could not be more disgusted with the behavior of our troops, and I can find no way to excuse it.
The only silver lining to this would be if the Arab world, who appears to be so shocked by such abuses, can demonstrate more civility then these American soldiers did when holding American captives.

" Arab world...can demonstrate more civility then these American soldiers did when holding American captives. "

Looks like one infidel has already given credit to abuse of prisoners of an occupied land. Aren't we the ones who claimed to have the moral high ground? Why compare ourselves to people you consider to be aliens now?

Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh
John F. Kerry's gonna win

Ho chi min? At least you wear your stupidity as a badge of honor.

Compare the abuse of prisoners story to this headline: KISSUFIM CROSSING, Gaza Strip - Palestinian gunmen killed a pregnant Jewish settler and four of her children in Gaza Sunday as Israel's ruling Likud Party held a referendum on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon plan to pull out of the troubled area.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040502/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716

Of course, muslims killing women and children doesn't upset human rights groups.

Regarding those dead kids, here is what happened:

The dead were identified as Tali Hatuel, 34, eight months pregnant and her daughters Hila, 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, Merav, 2 all from the settlement of Katif. Details of the funerals have yet to be finalized.

Here is how the arab media described it:
GAZA CITY, May 2 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) - Five Israeli settlers were killed Sunday, May 2, and three soldiers injured in a Palestinian resistance attack on an Israeli settlement in occupied southern Gaza.

Another heroic action by those brave jihadis. Those two year old babies are pretty tough to kill.

Re: basil (above)

"The Islamic Jihad and Popular Resistance Committees, an umbrella organization of militant groups linked to Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction, claimed responsibility for the "heroic" attack in a call to The Associated Press. The two terrorists were named as Ibrahim Hamed and Faisal Abuntera, residents of Rafah in the southern Strip."

Arafat must be killed. Now. As if the pizzeria bombing and the Pessach massacre weren't enough. And ALL of Hamed's and Abuntera's family (to the last sixth cousin) must also be killed (yeah, it IS collective punishment- so what? These people are barbarians.)

Allahu Akbar:

You must be working for the George Bush re-election campaign. At least, that's how your comments affect me.

I'm an independent voter who did not vote for Clinton, but neither have I ever voted for a republican presidential candidate. Well, guess what, I may well vote for GWBush in the fall. Why? Whoever has the strongest US position against islamic fascism gets my vote.

Enough said.

Mike H

There does appear to be collaberated evidence coming forward that these abuses committed by these 6 identified MPS`of the 372nd where encouraged and being carried out under the directions of of orders from their superiors.

Apparently the dominate forces in the Abu Ghraib prison where military intelligence,CIA,and interrogation specialists from private contractors.

Evidence is showing that these dominating groups encouraged the MPS` to conduct these tactics on on the most hardened prisoners in the Abu Ghraib prison to get them to talk. The problem here is that these reservists where doing the dirty work of the interrogators` without any training or guidlines. Most of the reservists that have been testifying to their activities, state that they where directed by these dominate groups to conduct these humiliating abuses.

One of the accused Specialist Sabrina Harman testified in her sworn statement that she was directed by military intelligence to keep detainees awake, including one hooded prisoner who was placed on a box with wires to his fingers,toes,and penus. The same stories are being told by other witnesses who worked in the prison system.

So apparently these intelligence organizations ran the prison and gave the orders to these untrained Military police .

The big question is; where was General Karpenski? did she have direct knowledge of these activities? And why was a General with absolutely no experience running a military prison?

It appears that military intelligence has to be brought up on the carpet for encouraging what went on in Abu Ghraib.

On the bright side, foreign workers are leaving saudi:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040502/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_attack&cid=540&ncid=716

Let's see them pump oil without foreigners. All a jihadi can do is blow himself up. He doesn't have employment skills.

What is the problem? They have done the same and worse to themselves. Oh, I get it. Do as I say and not as I do. It is OK if a Muslin kills and abuses other Muslins (or anyone els) but it is just a sin and shame if someone else does it to them. Since they all profess that they want to meet Allah then we should make every effort to dispatch every last one.

Aren't there S&M people who pay women to treat them this way?
Oh, excuse me, I'm being insensative.

Dear Robert,
"This is the difference between one civilization and the other in the ongoing clash of civilizations: one punishes such behavior, while the other celebrates it"
Actually, there is a difference. While our civalisation (i.e. Iraq) is war torn, suffering, under siege, constant bombardment, massacured (it is needless i remind you of the 1.5 million iraqis dead as a result of sanctions, and the fact US intelligence put saddam in power, a few more million), midnight house intrusions, beatings, and of course, the torture ordered by the CIA- there is al lot on American media, please take a moment to read some here (Note, all was extracted from western media http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A88B5EC6-9FCC-49D8-9215-99C91D2BD048.htm)
They, after all that, celebrate the killing of 4 private armed security workers (NOT civilians) and well, they were burnt as a result of the fighting, who said anyone put them on fire? They were beaten, a bad sight, yes, brutal, no im sure they didnt feel anything. However, take a second to view pictures of iraqis burnt http://www.vacarme.net/burnt_iraqi_child.jpg
Yes, that is brutal, that is a civilian, that is a child, and was it celebrated? I do recall bush going on a aircraft carrier celebrating the war, yes i do recall many happy americans, taking pride in a war of no purpose beyond profit and colonialism. Thats one difference, the other? Well, its the purpose of war. While we fight against the israelies who came from abroad, stole our land, killed thousands (20000 in one village alone). We fight against american invaders to regain our freedom. You, well... you fight to steal oil (Halliburton is happy to announce profits 80% up! (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9087FAAC-F2CF-421D-A5F9-9A32763FF9DA.htm)
, to gain strategic positions, and to consolidate its economic, politcal powers in the region. Yes, there is a difference between our two cultures. And while i see you constantly judging America by its words, i say this, its not what you say that matters, its what you do. And America has killed 14million people over the past 60 or so years, america has used WMDs on entire cities, America has used chemical agents on millions of peasents in vietnam and korea, America has, and continues to support the very worst of dictators, as well as putting others in power. America continues killing the environment, and continues in globalisation expansion, overseas slave labour. It continues to support oppressive tyrants and mass murders (sharon, sabra shatila 1800 people killed in one village under his direct order, recognized by the israeli supreme court)
Another point, America is neither war torn, or poverty striken, it has endured no pain and suffering, lives , on average, a very high standard of life, yet they continue to wage war, and continue to oppress more, and spread pain and suffering to others for the comfort of its own citizens.

Yes, its a reality, on the meter of evil, America surpasses the spectrum. There is, as you said, a difference.

Ahmad:

Yet more Arab fantacizing:

"(sharon, sabra shatila 1800 people killed in one village under his direct order, recognized by the israeli supreme court)"

The killings of these Muslim Arabs by Christian Arabs was not as a result of Sharon's "direct order", contrary to your assertion.

The findings of the Kahan Report are clear in this regard:

"The Commission determined that the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla was carried out by a Phalangist unit, acting on its own but its entry was known to Israel. No Israeli was directly responsible for the events which occurred in the camps... It is our view that responsibility is to be imputed to the Minister of Defense for having disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps, and having failed to take this danger into account when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the camps. In addition, responsibility is to be imputed to the Minister of Defense for not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps. These blunders constitute the non-fulfillment of a duty with which the Defense Minister was charged."

Source: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/kahan.html

Sharon may have erred in letting the Phalangists into the camps, but this was an error of judgment-an act of non-feasance in not controlling the Phalange, rather than malfeasance.

Further, Justice Kahan headed an Independent Commission on the events in Sabra and Shatila- again contrary to your claim, that Sharon was somehow found guilty of the killings "as recognized by the israeli supreme court". The Commission's findings DO NOT have the force of law, and were not subject to the stringent evidentiary burdens that would have been required in any criminal proceedings against Sharon.

You are not addressing an unthinking and al-Jazeera-indoctrinated audience here, Ahmad. We think critically here. Verify your statements before you make spurious implications which are misleading or false. Otherwise, you are nothing but a troll, and Mr. Spencer will ban you. It is a privilege, not a right, to post here.

Ahmad,

al jazeera is not western media. It is jihad tv.

1.5 million Iraqis are dead because of poison gas and theft of oil for food funding by Hussein. Also, Allahu Akbar, isn't that a favorite howling of Reza the jihadi? I do believe it is.....

Back to Ahmad; who do you feel that you're going to convince one and a half million Iraqis are dead because of sanctions? And, if that were true, which it's not, those sanctions were imposed because some arrogant Arabian dictator named Hussein, refused to follow the law.

Like Muslims in America (many, not all), they just seem to think that Islam overrides our Constitution, which it does not.....This is the most arrogant of cults that's ever made itself known in the media (usually through barbaric murders).......

Those pictures are shocking only in that they lower the US military to the level of your average Arab or Muslim.Otherwise there is the usual Arab hypocrisy. Outrage at Iraqis being humiliated, glee as they watch 3000 Americans die on 911, no real concern for Japanese hostages who Muslims savages threaten to burn alive.I've come to care less and less about the "sensitivity" and
"feelings" of the so-called Arab street.They tend to hate all infidels anyway so why care what they think?

Ahmed
Come an join us! But you have to take the first step...admit that you might be wrong.
Can you do that?

Mr.Ahmad: You are wrong on every charge that you have made regarding America.

# 1 America does not want to be in Iraq, after 17 UN resolutions that where violated by Saddams corrupt regime for 12 years, America could no longer risk the chance that Saddam may use those WMDS that he used on Iran and the Kurds. Saddam constantly threatened America in his speeches leading up to the American invasion.

The Oil for food program that was suppose to be managed by the UN. but found its way into the pockets of Saddam and other corrupt leaders instead of his people so he could build his palaces all over Iraq and leave his people to starve As D.C. Watson pointed out.

In regards to Iraqi oil, that money should have gone to the people of Iraq, it did not. Experts say that Iraqi oil represents less than 5 pct. of the oil that America used. They are now finding greater oil deposits (sweet crude) along the west coast of Africa that will make the middle east oil deposits look pale in comparison . Sweet crude can be pumped directly into the ships without refineries thus reducing the cost dramatically. Unfortunatly the middle east has looked way to long in the gift horse`s mouth. Sadly to many have died trying to give the economies of the middle east great wealth because of the oil that was found there, but to many could not see the forest thru the trees and ended up squandering the great resources of the area on just a few.

America did not want to fight the Japanese,the Germans,or the North Koreans. If Islam was peaceful we would not be there either.

Mackie-
While my posts are strictly for Mr. Robert, i will, however take some time to point out where you are wrong.
" 1 America does not want to be in Iraq, after 17 UN resolutions that where violated by Saddams corrupt regime for 12 years, America could no longer risk the chance that Saddam may use those WMDS that he used on Iran and the Kurds. Saddam constantly threatened America in his speeches leading up to the American invasion. "
This is blatantly wrong. Saddam neither threatened America, nor possesed the WMDs that you America alledged he did. I challenge you to bring forward any proof you have, and i mean excerpts from his speeches.
If America does not wish to be in Iraq, why did it so strongly campaign to go into it in the first place... WMDs? Yes, its a point we all knows its been faked.
"the Oil for food program that was suppose to be managed by the UN. but found its way into the pockets of Saddam and other corrupt leaders instead of his people so he could build his palaces all over Iraq and leave his people to starve As D.C. Watson pointed out."
Unfortunately, this is not the case. Again little proof has ever been drawn on the case. I have seen quite a few prominent American writers defend American forign policy on that basis, however not one shred of proof was provided to proove the theory. However, the .5 million iraqi children who suffered from deformations were proven by a number of groups (red cross) to be as a result from Uranium depleted shells. Further more, the money, if 100% put into into food and medicine, from the oil for food program would not have provided the neccessary amounts for the iraqi population. There is already enough studies and articles on the matter.

"In regards to Iraqi oil, that money should have gone to the people of Iraq, it did not. Experts say that Iraqi oil represents less than 5 pct. of the oil that America used. They are now finding greater oil deposits (sweet crude) along the west coast of Africa that will make the middle east oil deposits look pale in comparison . Sweet crude can be pumped directly into the ships without refineries thus reducing the cost dramatically. Unfortunatly the middle east has looked way to long in the gift horse`s mouth. Sadly to many have died trying to give the economies of the middle east great wealth because of the oil that was found there, but to many could not see the forest thru the trees and ended up squandering the great resources of the area on just a few."
Please read the article i posted earlier(halliburton profits up 80%)
Also, you simplify the argument greatly by claiming only 5% of iraqi oil is used by Americans. There is plentifull oil, however America faces a number of risks
*OPEC oil price dominance
*Threat of a repeat of the 1970's scenario (Saudi cuts of oil, economic crisis for the US)
*Continuos oil supply, from which israel too can benifit (as it did as a result of an american brockered peace deal between Egypt and Israel, Israel consequently gained access to oil supplies from newly opened oil wells in the Sinia)
Also, America also benifits from the oil
*.Profit from oil sales used to update oil infrastructure and the rebuilding of iraq
*.Oil prices reduced in the long term

"America did not want to fight the Japanese,the Germans,or the North Koreans. If Islam was peaceful we would not be there either."
Robert Petersons theories resemble the comunist theory scares of the past century. I have already challenged him on a number of topics in another thread. To say that muslims fight America on the basis of puerly expanding islamic borders is rediculous. We fight America soely because it fights us. E.g. Supporting Israels oppression of Palestineans, Bombing lebanon 1983, Sudan 1998, Iraq 1991-present day, Somalia, afganistan, etc... It fights us, and we purely believe we fight a defensive war, regardless what Mr. Robert says. And while he brings the quotes of a few, i can bring you entire populations to bare witness. I say this, America depart from our lands, stop bombing our countries, stop the biased aid to israel, and i gaurntee you peace, as for us, i strongly believe nothing really bothers us about a US confrentations, on the other hand, many are eager for such a confrentation.

Regards
Ahmad

Ahmad's comments are typical of Islamofacism dogma. The funniest thing about it is that it's almost always the depredations of their own leaders that they blame on someone else. Sort of a sad 14th century mindset. Ah well.

Hey Ahmad,
1. WMDs weren't the only things in those UN specifications. Can you read or did you miss the other parts?

2. If you've got proof that the Red Cross (I forget: are they ALLOWED in muslim countries Ahmad? I thought they were the enemy for you guys.) found that the deaths were from DPU shells, then let's see it baby. Funny thing: American troops handle those shells all the time, yet any of them only got sick in the Middle East. Odd, that. Unfortunately, you're wrong again little fella: it's as good as proven now that Hussein and those good folks at the UN lined their pockets with the cash from the oil sales. But hey, if assigning real blame for the civilian casualties isn't a really big issue for you...

Also, OPEC prices aren't a concern any more. Remember Kuwait? The Republican Guard does. Kuwait operates pretty much independently of OPEC. They can set their own prices, which is pretty much why they got invaded. Fortunately, the US was able to blast the best units of the Iraqi army back across the border. Your other points aren't making much sense, of course, but I don't worry myself about those.

3. Peterson's comments resemble communist scares? Wow, you must get your information out off the back of Cracker Jacks boxes. Turn off that MTV, baby! LOL. Incidentally, Ahmad, there were real communists (and are) that did really bad things (and do). Some of them invaded Afghanistan and killed an awful lot of people there. Another little issue: the Islamic religion is heavily grounded in the killing of non-believers. It's all over the book. We know this, we've read it. And you know this. So there's no point pretending it's all a defensive by Islam - it isn't. Your last lines are the most telling - about how many Islamics want confrontation. It suggests you feel pretty much the same way. This too, is something we know. However, since Christianity is founded on peace, whatever it's adherents might do (although frankly communists and muslims have killed a lot more people) the basic desire is for peace with the rest of the world. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way Ahmad, but in a very basic sense, no one is surprised.

Here's a short but telling rejoinder for you chief: deal with your own people in a fair and just way, stop persecuting them and blaming us, stop mindlessly expanding and protecting yourselves via our own considerable generosity, stop begging for aid and then sending violence at us, stop persecuting religious minorities in your nations and imposing special taxes on them (i.e. allow people to be different than yourselves), stop hating us and desiring what we have built and generally stop hating the rest of the world for being more advanced, thoughtful and logical that the average citizen of the average muslim nation, and WE promise YOU peace. By the way, the latter point is not our fault. You did all that to yourselves.

Geoff

Without excusing the behaviour of the MPs at Abu Ghraib, not adequately skilled for the task, it 's alleged that they were ordered to "soften up" irrecondite captives before interrogation.

They look to've got off on the right foot - disorienting the prisoners via stress, threats, sleep deprivation, blindfolding them, stripping them and having American women laugh at their dicks.

Because the Iraqi detainees weren't in the hands of experts, however, their treatment went way too far, with the alleged beatings, electrocutions and penetrations. (The issue of what private cameras might be doing in such a place, in any circumstances, is another matter.)

In professional interrogation, physical torture and force in general (severe beatings, etc) are seldom employed: when they are, the subject and the inquisitor both know that the sessions are winding up, that the questioner has run out of useful, productive methods of duress. If they haven't cracked so far, then this is the time for the victim to clam up even more tightly - in effect, they're close to winning the contest. Further, anything that they do divulge when being brutalized must normally be viewed as the most unreliable of data.

Curiously, in the 18th Century, the Hapsburg Empress, Maria Theresa. appalled at the prevalence of torture in her realm, plus the fact that this was having a negligible impact upon high rate of crime and sedition therein, codified the utilization of intimidation and coercion by her authorities. She decreed that there should solely be: The First Degree - "Show the Instruments" (the red-hot irons, the rack, the wheel, and so forth), to frighten a suspect into confession; The Second Degree - singeing the sides, from armpit to hip, with a candle-flame; The Third Degree - the dreaded thumb-screws. Most often, it proved that the First Degree alone would do, if paired with the right psychological accompaniment.

This is the key factor: tailoring, customizing, every aspect of the interviewee's handling, in detail, in a mode that will drastically shift him/her into another state of mind, where the things that define and bind his/her attitudes and opinions, etc, can no longer apply. (The North Koreans were - are - the masters of the requisite techniques.)

By irresponsibly putting the inmates of Abu Ghraib at the sophomoric disposal of amateurs, the US officials there have jeopardized or compromised any results which they may have hoped to attain, as well as injuring American PR in connection with the Iraq campaign.

fox news is not western media, its neocon tv

sorry couldnt help it :) have a nice weekend folks

Thanks Geoff:

For responding and rebutting Ahmeds comments. After reading his dia-tribe, it is clear to me that he so steeped in so much miss information from whatever underground books he is reading that I feel i`m just wasting my time with him.

At least he his a better speller than Jihad Hood. I`ll give him that.

I think the point that all you people are missing is that the occupation of iraq itself is without purpose and therefore anything the US does to any iraqi person (civilian or not) is barbaric, plus i think Robert "forgot" to tell us why does he think the US military invaded iraq in the first place

First and foremost, Tareq, the reason why Iraq was subject to intervention was because its monstrous dictator, Saddam Husein, had consistently refused to provide the UN - which had been patient with him for 12 long years on this topic - with any solid evidence whatsoever that he had wound up the WMD industries he possessed in 1991.

He was universally known - even by his French and Russian clients - to be stockpiling these armaments. Until 1991, he was steadily producing chemical and biological warheads (with their medium- and intermediate-range missile delivery-systems) and was working on obtaining nukes.

After 1991, deaf to 17 UN Resolutions, he played every possible trick to frustrate the inspectors of UNSCOM and then UNMOVIC, in order that that no true picture of his arsenal could be seen.

Why, if he'd really disassembled his WMD programs - as he constantly professed - didn't he spare himself all the bother and come clean, if, as he claimed, he had nothing to hide?

There can be no dispute here - go check the transcripts of the UN Security Council itself.

Forgive me but...Does anyone remember the speech given by Bush on the 20th of September 2001? In this speech He declared that all terrorists, and ALL STATES that sponsor or support terror or terrorists were the enemy in this War against terror? This would include but not be limited to iraq, iran, syria and palestine...for starters...

The finding of multiple terrorists training camps in iraq is justification enough for our actions. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't we find one camp with an actual passenger plane being used for training purposes? Another Northern camp had instructions for using WMD, right? So Please no more waffling about our reasons for taking sadam out.

Forget the WMD for now...That will be found in syria or while being brought to the US over the Canadian Borders in suitcases soon enough. I hope the Canadians are prepared for the consequences..These muslims are such boneheads they will probably spill some before leaving Canada...

If the World does not come off this high horse of "letter of the law" instead of "spirit of the law" we will soon find ourselves either honoring this monster god allah 5 times a day or pushing up daisies as a fulltime activity!

I am sick and tired of double standards..The muslims can murder a woman and five children in cold blood and that is passed over by the press..But let a few nasty iraqi men suffer humiliation and the world is aghast??

Given the choice I am sure that Woman, her 8 month old (unborn) Son and 4 daughters would have gladly traded and suffered the humiliation those rats in the iraqi prison suffered just to be able to enjoy the birth of their first son next month.

I do believe the time for wiping out families to the last 9th cousin has passed. The Ancient Israelites missed that opportunity 3000 years ago...We now need to get that fence finished. Build it High and wide and let the arab nations start supplying medicines and building materials to the palestinians instead of weapons.

Speaking of double standards..What other nation has ever been asked to return land captured in a war declared against them???? The palestinians need to return to their real homelands...TRANS JORDAN. Too bad the Jordanians are smart enough to not want the palestinians back....So much for muslim loyalty Eh?

Note: the lack of capitalization of muslims countries is intended....When they earn my respect I will consider them worthy of a capital letter...

fox news is not western media, its neocon tv

sorry couldnt help it :) have a nice weekend folks

Posted by joseph at May 2, 2004 08:32 PM

Joseph, what is wrong with you? There has to be some balance in the mainstream media and you know it. Too much of it leans toward the left.....and there has to be a counter weight applied to it or everyone that thinks they way you do would let this country be taken away by the Islamists.....

The left is chock full of flower children singing give peace a chance.......Unfortunately, we aren't going to be able to have peace with radical Islamists, unless of course, we hand over everything to them, which just isn't going to happen, ever.

explain to me how fox news is balanced. it is actually slanted to the conservative viewpoint in this country. the only news program that I can think of in this country that is not overly biased to the left or to the right is the News Hour on pbs.

Contrary to what some of you bleeding hearts seem to think, we should be doing a lot more of this kind of stuff.

I say again: READ "WHEN DEVILS WALK THE EARTH" by Ralph Peters. His very first recommendation is BE FEARED. And to be feared, you have to identify what the enemy fears, then let him know that you are willing and able to do it to him. Another recommendation is to HUMILIATE THE ENEMY ANY WAY THAT YOU CAN.

Joseph:

Most of America is either moderate, or conservative, that is why Fox is more fair and balanced. It is also the most popular cable news station because it appeals to mainstream America.

Though they may make a lot of noise, The left wing liberal Ideology is not mainstream in America.

HMMMM....the arab world wasnt "shocked" or "disgusted" by the burning, mutilating and hanging for public display of 4 American civilians...so I guess it stands to reason that if the soldiers would have mutilated these prisoners, burned them, maybe for a bit of extra fun tied them to the back of a humvee and dragged their corpses through the streets firing weapons in the air and chanting "Jesus is Great"...then hung their bodies in front of the prison...it would have been A-Ok with the arab world.

Let's look at real life are some of these men the ones who dismembered the Marines the frist weeks of the war or the ones who raped pfc Linch. or the ones who dismembered the British Sholders lets look at these savages as they are not what We want them to be! I remember About a Trial here in America that people were more mad at a man who flipped them off but not for killing the little Child. Not to say what they did was right I think we have drugs to make them talk and need to use it we are not savages again we have to stop worring about what those who hate us think we have bailed them out in WW1 and WW2 and will have to again if they don't get on the ball and stop picking on America maybe this time when they put in the call we will not answer the phone

These Americans must be disciplined. Although it is the exception rather than the rule, the perception in the Mid-East is that the US Military is constantly humiliating and torturing all Iraqis, etc there!
Strange how the Mid-East press never did condemn those who mutilated those bodies in Fallujah...nor condemn all those whom Saddam and his sons tortured for years on end.

jihan

Strange how the Mid-East press never did condemn those who mutilated those bodies in Fallujah....

Condem them?....hell they will probably be on the next postage stamp...they are considered "heros"...I agree that the soldiers must be punished but lets keep the "torture" in prespective....a few humiliating pictures do not constitute torture...I am sure if the dead American civilians were asked their choice they would have picked the nudie photos over being burned and mutilated.

catherine the rape alegation for jessice lynch is not true and she even said that it never happened stop repeating lies. another thing whats going on there is its alot more important for the usa's image to seem perfect we have no room to do anything bad like what happened in that prison because it turns the population agaisnt the united states. a couple more of these types of incidents and the usa will be forced from that country by the general populace. and to then justify cruel treatment on iraqi's because iraqi's have done some cruel things to americans is ignorant and crazy. america is better then that we have the honor to keep that we do not engage in such activities and your justification is disgusting. crap like this will do nothing to end terror or the jihadist movement it will only make it grow.

Sure...we have to be held to a higher standard...come on our muslim friends...burn and mutilate our dead...we wont retaliate...we have a higher standard...the soldiers that did this will be punished for humiliating the prisoners...and life will go on...ummm I think the "winning the hearts and minds" is finished and the image of the US will always be crap in the arab world unless we stop supporting Israel...and that wont happen...we will never have "honor" in their eyes...all we will have is more dead and mutilated Americans...maybe after another 9-11 people will start to get it.

USA GIRL

The object in this war (and it is a war) is not to "win hearts and minds" in the Islamic world. That cannot be done. The object is to DEFEAT them, no matter what it takes to accomplish that.

As to "another 911" well, I think if they are dumb enough to do something like that or worse again, we will have the justification that we need to pull out the stops, take off the gloves, and beat the daylights out of them.

Humiliation? Wait until we have a flag raising over the Kabba in Mecca. Then the Islamists will be good and truly humiliated.

wow I love that "defeat" them ? do you mean by defeat the entire culture that is the muslim world?
you actually think that this is obtainable and not only something that can be done but be done in a way that will not make you look like hitler? think about it your basically advocating a religous/cultural war? now will this war be won by bombs? now you will respond by saying "well thats what alqaeda has declared on us" well thats good and fine but alqaeda does not have the capability to kill millions of people we do. my solution is one of boosting the economic wealth of the people through this region, economic growth of the muslim buisness sector, slowly moving the societys to become secular but on there own timeline and will. stop supporting dictators musharaf,mubarek,saudi royal family,etc. and finally solving the israeli / palestien situation in a way that can be accepted by all partys even if both sides have to make some serious concessions. by removing the root angers and problems that alqaeda and its splinter groups see then the support for them will decrease. then again maybe im just a dhimmi. but i refuse to accept a solution that is accomplished by religous hatred on the part of christians towards muslims because it is no different then the hatred shown by muslims to christians and jews. i refuse to accept the idea that in someway we are superior and it thus justifys are usage of our military to completely destroy the region.

Joey,

Back to your old self, eh? Using the hitler analogy will elicit only yawns. We have heard it too many times, and it is obviously baiting.

"your basically advocating a religous/cultural war". We are not advocating it. The jihadis started a religious/cultural war, and we are fighting it.

"solving the israeli / palestien situation in a way that can be accepted by all partys even if both sides have to make some serious concessions". Palestineans don't make concessions. Disengagement is the solution, and the Israelis will eventually come to that conclusion.

"then again maybe im just a dhimmi". The smartest thing I ever heard you say.

"slowly moving the societys to become secular". Ridiculous, the jihadis will always fight this.

"stop supporting dictators musharaf,mubarek,saudi royal family,etc". And in their place support who? The ayatollahs of Iran, Arafat, the Taliban, or Assad? We went into Iraq precisely because we want to change the old dynamic of supporting dictators.

"religous hatred on the part of christians towards muslims because it is no different then the hatred shown by muslims to christians and jews". Ridiculous on its face. Vintage Joey. If you think christians and jews show the same ferocity as the jihadis, you are not just a dhimmi, you are a dummy.

Irony alert!

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Iran accused the United States of systematically killing, torturing and raping Iraqis, and said such abuses by U.S. troops had bred hatred throughout the Islamic world.

TEHRAN, Iran - An Iranian court reimposed a death sentence Monday against a university professor who criticized clerical rule, a judicial official told The Associated Press.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040503/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_death_sentence

well iraq sure seems to be a excellent test bed on how well your strategy is working....

rick said

"The object is to DEFEAT them, no matter what it takes to accomplish that." does this mean jus bin ladins followers or is it advocating fighting agaisnt the entire muslim population that lives on your planet in muslim countries?

the problem with alot of the posts here are the ambiguous nature of the threats that are delivered here are they threats targeted to a fundamentalist islamic minority or are they something of a much larger sinister nature advocating violence and destruction to islam as a religion as a whole? this is why i make my comparisons to hitler
you do not have the right to destroy a religon or a people because of there race and some posts not all of them seem to hint at doing this. so answer me this. do yo or do you now want to destroy islam around the world?

Rick are you stupid do we have to experince another 9/11 to take the gloves off maybe you have not been keeping up on curent events but we are at war now how ulgly we will get depends on our enemys now we are trying to be nice but that will not last forever. look in jordan they were going to kill 80,000 and today in Turkey had enough Cem's to take out 30,000

I was stating "winning the hearts and minds" because thats what President Bush said he was hoping to accomplish in Iraq...fat chance that was ever gonna happen...and I dont think there is any IF about another 9-11, just a matter of when, where and how many thousands slaughtered...it was our worry about offending anyone, about being honorable, being fully trusting of them that bought us 9-11, and anyone that starts to forget..just go back and look at the pictures, hopefully it will renew your fury, we cannot afford to be that soft again..its going to be more difficult this time, but certainly not impossible...comes down to us or them....I can only hope its us.

I read this quote from an Iraqi: "This sort of thing is unacceptable. It's a grave insult to the dignity and humanity of Iraqis." Understatement. Having just seen "Passion of the Christ," I could not help but think of Jesus under one of those hoods, being humiliated and demeaned (as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me (Matt.25:40)).

I agree with a poster above who said this awful abuse drops us dangerously to the level of terrorists we are trying to stop; I am heartened, and not surpised, to know that the military (at its usual dogged pace) is doing something about it. However, that won't stop many in the Islamic world from saying forevermore that Americans are immoral and evil. In our free society, we are perhaps less judgemental than those in these strict, non-democratic countries. As an example, imagine seeing an Iraqi woman smiling, with a cig hanging out of her mouth, as she taunts a poor guy being forced to jack off. Can you say whore? Can you say rape? As a woman, I feel personally humiliated by that immoral, criminal woman (assuming the pics are not fake, and I think that is correct) and can find no excuse for her; I am as insulted as a woman as the Iraqi man quoted above is as an Iraqi. After she is punished, this feeling won't wear off - I'll still think "ho." I just hope Iraqis will realize (and I think most of them will) that this is not the case - that redemption is possible.

ABU GHRAIB HYPOCRISY
First let me say that these crimes must be punished. Everyone is shocked and disgusted by this psychological torture and humiliation, which will effect the victims for the rest of their lives.
But the International Community's reaction is riddled with hypocrisy:

1. Bad treatment for US troops?
It is conventional wisdom among pundits that ill-treatment by a few US troops will result in worse treatment against American POWs. Really?
In the past, US POWS and even civilians have hardly been treated according to the Geneva Conventions. Daniel Pearl beheaded, the Fallujah four mutilated and burned, Jessica Lynch raped come to mind. Tiger cages and torture in Vietnam, forced death marches and executions during WWII. Perhaps the pundits could tell me of a conflict where American POWs were protected?
The threat of bad treatment for POWs might have more effect if it hadn't already happened.

2. Torture=bad, Torture-Killing=Good?
How did the world respond when 4 civilians were tortured, mutilated, burned, shot, executed, their bodies parts burned, stepped on, dragged and hung from bridges? In much of the press, it was hardly denounced, and actually used as more evidence of either American failure or blame was cast on the non-combatant civilian workers as being "spieds" or "mercenaries".
Clearly a few humiliating sexual poses would be preferable to mutilation-death-desecration. Apparently rape, torture, mutilation and execution of Americans POWs and even civilians is okay....

3. Demand for apologies
Here's the game:
-If you only apologize, Iraqis will forgive you
-Bush and others apologize
-Declare these apologies invalid for some reason -- they were too indirect, they were personal statements, etc.
-The apology provokes no forgiveness, only shrill denunciations about trying to sneak out of responsibility. A Saudi paper screamed "Killers should apologize!"

4. War=Bad, Terror=Good?
This is a part of a larger pattern of hypocrisy: War is "evil", terror is good. War by nations against nations is wrong. Civil war and insurgency are "heroic". Thus, nations which fight wars must be harangued for real and imagined war-crimes, while their insurgent, terrorist counterparts can extermination civilians, rape, torture and mutilate with impunity---after all, they are not governments, so how can they be held responsible.

Thus, the rape of Jessica Lynch and female soldiers in the first Gulf War are laughed off. Thus, executions of American civilians like Daniel Pearl and an elderly wheel-chair bound Achille Lauro passenger is never called a war crime--the terrorists act with impunity. Only wars are protested; Terrorist atrocities and war crimes are laughed off, ignored, or worse, secretly sympathized and justified.

5. Get ready for more hypocrisy
Some Iraqis despite official apologies and even compensation ,and despite experts from the Arab media who claimed that “if only Bush would apologize” the Iraqis will forgive you, radicals in Iraq and elsewhere will no doubt seek to get “Revenge”. When American POWS are tortured and executed what can we expect? Loud, shrill denunciations by the world’s press?? I doubt it. More likely are apologetics, excuse-making, justifications, and even glee. Such is the craven nature of the “World Community”.