But as long as Paul Johnson was not a Muslim, that love was unrequited. From AP:
Johnson had worked in Saudi Arabia for more than a decade and over the week his friends and family had described him as devoted to the culture of his adopted land.
For what ultimately killed Paul Johnson was the conviction that non-Muslims have no right to be in Saudi Arabia, in accord with the Prophet Muhammad's dictum: "Turn out all Al-Mushrikun [unbelievers] from the Arabian Peninsula" (Sahih Bukhari, vol. 4, book 58, no. 3168 -- in the hardcover edition; the numbering in the online edition is different, but for some reason I can't get into it today).
NOTE: Last night's loathsome spammer has returned, so I have had to close comments on this one too.
What "culture of his adopted land" could that conceivably be? The culture of the public executions in the squares, fit for the whole family? (Remember that PBS "Death of a Princess" brouhah more than twenty years ago -- it hardly cramped the Saudi style). The brilliant art works? The thriving literature? The unforgettable contributions to the advancement of science? The splendidly-understanding domestic arrangmenets whereby every Jack could have his Jill, and his Jill, and his Jill, and his Jill, and not, like those decadent Westerners, merely seriatim but all together. (Of course then comes a little problem at bedtime: decisions, decisions, decisions).
Perhaps Paul Johnson found the pace of life among the Saudis (i.e. no pace, because no real work, which was done by him and by others like him) relaxing, perhaps he found their liquid-brown-eyes politeness winning. Most American servicemen (not civilians, but servicemen) have come away from Saudi Arabia disgusted with the ill-concealed contempt they felt from the Saudis whom they met, who treated them as essentially servants, there to do a job. I have heard from others, civilians, who find a similar contempt -- quite unmerited given that Saudi claims on anyone's attention are based solely on an accident of geology. Otherwise, there is no there there. Just yesterday I learned of an American doctor who had gone to set up a cardiac catheterization center for all those overweight Saudis, and still remembers with fury their bored disdain for him (yes, get on with your job, and boy, you can pick up your check on the way out).
Perhaps this is just a story that the Johnson family, out of some diseased sympathy for the devil, trying to convince themselves in some kind of sentimental Tiny-Tim or Rodney-Kingesque fashion, that Saudi society was lovely, and the Saudis so kind, and polite -- and then, well, someone just comes along and does something bad that has nothing to do with the real society that Mr. Johnson knew and loved.....
Sentimentality, diseased sentimentality, is killing us. Count me out.
Maybe he liked the hot weather.
These frreaks of nature and their god they still believe in when science proved there is no gods or godesses dont want no muslims in Arabia but those freaks come to america by the millions .I think its time to do what we did in the 2nd world war in ternment camps then return to sender, close our borders.
Likewise muslims should have no right to live in our non-muslim countries.
The best recipe for peace is:
1. Segregate the 2 main opposing cultures of the world (muslim/non-muslim) by whatever means. This can be done swiftly.
2. Cut off all economic and other support for their countries and countries found supporting them.
3. Cut off all ties to their countries. The most difficult being their oil exports, but it is possible.
4. Nuke them as often as necessary until the desert sand turns to glass with a nice golden brown color.
Then we can live happily ever after. Islam is a sick religion. It is the result of the actions of these subhumans (e.g. http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/5.htm) that more and more people are realizing how evil their religion really is. They are creating a monster of hate that will finally lash back at them, hopefully with total eradication.
I for one did not know (nor care to know) much about their sick religion and culture in the past (before 9/11). The war and genocide in Bosnia seemed somewhat rediculous at the time to me. But now I can start to imagine and understand the hate that must have led to the genocide of the muslims there. I guess living amongst them is the only way to understand their evil fully. Now with their increasing terrorist actvitities they are breeding more hate towards themselves and are probably going to have to (deservedly) suffer the consequences.
hugh,
donot go deeper in your ill speculations, soon you will have the chance to meet him in person. of course you know how & where!
People are continually posting on the site that the war in Iraq was a war for oil. Hugh has posted a devastating critique of this view on the "Al-Qaida leader killed in Saudi raid" thread.
Here is my two cents worth in a repeat of the reply made to Arxos' posts in the above-mentioned regard:
If the Iraq war was about oil, the US could have just stayed at home and spent the money that they have spent and will spend on this war on oil. So far the US has spent about $100 Billion dollars and before all has been said and done, they may spend upwards of $300 Billion dollars. So, let's do the math. At current prices of $40 a barrel, $300 Billion dollars would be 75 BILLION BARRELS OF OIL! By contrast, the strategic oil reserve contains currently about 600 million barrels of oil (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/spr.html). Again, if we do the math then, if my estimate of what the US will eventually spend on Iraq comes close to $300 Billion, then the US could have purchased the equivalent of 125 strategic oil reserves.
Finally, if the US just wanted oil, they could have just invaded Canada. Including the oil sands, Canada has proven reserves of 180 billion barrels which is greater than that of Iraq. (http://www.rense.com/general37/petrol.htm)
Islam is not a religion. It's an ideology. It uses God as a footstool in order to control and subjugate people. Even Muhammad, a criminal, killer and pedophile, didn't require people to convert to Islam or die, he used it as a political tool to wield power among the battling tribes in the Middle East. Islam was not about spirituality or salvation, but about power and control.
I am an agnostic. So I take no sides on religous debates. I cannot understand why the Christian evangelicals travel to the middle east and force feed their beliefs on the Islamic people. This does nothing to help the situation and further leads to calls for Jihad. Anyone who lives in America, how many times have you had a Muslim knock on your door and try to make you take some literature about their beliefs? By president Bush allowing continued 'Crusades' (which is what they should be properly called) by Christian evangelicals only aggravates the situation. There was a story about the trips to the middle east and the Christian proselytizing on the 700-Club.
I think Paul Johnson probably liked the large paycheques. That's the only reason to stay in a backward, barbaric place like Saudi Arabia.
Hugh:
Most American servicemen (not civilians, but servicemen) have come away from Saudi Arabia disgusted with the ill-concealed contempt they felt from the Saudis whom they met, who treated them as essentially servants, there to do a job.
Been there, done that. You're absolutely correct.
I first started wondering about whose side these supposed Saudi "allies" were on when I was there back in 1990, when they were allowed to search and censor our mail (both incoming and outgoing). Then, they demanded that our chaplains remove their branch insignia from their uniforms.
I'm starting to think that we should have let Saddam invade their rathole of a country as well.
"Someone's" threat against Hugh is proof that Hugh's analysis is correct. He touched a nerve. Once again, Hugh has provided us with a correct analysis of situation that "foreigners" find in a Muslim country, espcially Saudi Arabia. That "politeness" is a masked contempt, the trying too hard attempt to "put up with" an inferior culture similar to the condescension that one sees in films, especially period pieces depicting the contact upper class Victorians with their "social inferiors." Paul Johnson, a middle-class American did not recognize this, or perhaps he did not care.
The seduction of an "exotic" culture can be overpowering, and many have fallen to its siren song, and all pay a price of some kind. Mr. Johnson paid the price that only the sirens of Islam exact, the same fate that would befall all that are unsuccessful in repulsing Islam, for the "exotic" culture that lies behind those "polite eyes" is only a veneer covering a barbarism of enormous magnitude that will devour and destroy all that thwart its borg-like appetite. Johnson was made an example of a Westerner that did not submit in a timely manner, whose "vile and loathesome" presence could no longer be tolerated.
Anonymous:
By president Bush allowing continued 'Crusades' (which is what they should be properly called) by Christian evangelicals only aggravates the situation.
While there may be a few Christian missionaries in various Islamic-majority countries, Saudi Arabia isn't one of them.
Such activities are punishible by death in the magic kingdom.
Anonymous - Christian missionaries sometimes do go door to door in the West to spread the word. We merely turn them away at the door if we aren'r interested in the message or the messenger.
Why doesnt Bush just nuke the bastards? What was Mohammed anyway? Someone who brought all this hate in the world. Just Nuke 'em !
epg:
Christian missionaries sometimes do go door to door in the West to spread the word. We merely turn them away at the door if we aren'r interested in the message or the messenger.
For a look at how Muslims conduct door-to-door evangelism, check out the archive from June 15th. There's a link to an interview with the leader of the recent Khobar slaughter.
I lived in the United States from the age of 15 until I turned 19. When Japan went to war with America, I became a "hostile alien." In 1942, I was sent to a detention center -- a relocation camp.
I knew I was being detained unjustly, but fortunately I was treated fairly throughout my years of captivity. I was never tortured or abused.
In fact, I felt I was walking into a much worse prison when I returned to wartime Japan to find the nation completely in the grip of emperor-worshipping totalitarianism.
I recently saw on television a released Iraqi prisoner, a victim of abuse by U.S. soldiers. Recalling his humiliation, he said he wished he had died.
His comment made me see the United States as a far more redeemable nation than Japan. By releasing Iraqi detainees, the Americans knew they risked putting themselves in a compromising position because those who were freed would undoubtedly reveal information damaging to the United States. Yet, prodded by public opinion, the U.S. government has begun setting them free.
When President George W. Bush likened his war to a crusade, I had to assume the United States was turning totalitarian. But its decision to release Iraqi prisoners signifies that some degree of democracy is still alive in that nation.
When three Japanese citizens were taken hostage in Iraq, certain high-profile Japanese politicians questioned the hostages' "sense of responsibility," while U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell stated that the Japanese people ought to be proud of the three.
Even though America's moral bankruptcy is deep, I still believe the United States will come to its senses sooner than Japan.
Even before the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, Pope John Paul II was already warning Christendom against any religious war with the Islamic world. The Christian world is ignorant of Islam, the Holy Father cautioned. Going to war with an unknown people would drag everyone into a bottomless mess, he insisted.
Bush, on the other hand, styled himself as the leader of the "civilized" world and went to war -- a bona fide fool who never seems to doubt his own righteousness.
I recall an old slogan from a pamphlet distributed by Japan's now-defunct War Ministry. It said, "War is the mother of civilization."
As I am of the belief that not everything about civilization is "good," I must say this slogan is correct. It was through its war effort that the United States successfully developed strategic nuclear bombs and used them against Japan, an enemy that was effectively on the verge of collapse. And that is what the Americans understand as "civilization."
The inhumane treatment of Iraqis by American soldiers suggests the latter's failure to see alien nationals as fellow human beings. Come to think of it, when Japan sent its troops to China in the 1930s, many Japanese soldiers held the Chinese people in contempt. Ordinary men, who would have remained good fathers and husbands under normal circumstances, brutalized, killed and raped innocent Chinese civilians and abused prisoners-of-war.
It is easy to condemn the Americans for their ignorance and prejudice toward anything Islamic, as revealed by the prisoner abuses. It is also easy to denounce the Americans' lack of remorse for their history of repeated massacres of native Americans.
But what about my own compatriots today? When they discuss problems concerning North Korea, how many really understand what it means to learn from history and respect foreign cultures?
Japan's history of colonialism and uprooting of colonial subjects from their homes forced people of Chinese and Korean origins to settle in Japan. And the Tokyo metropolitan government is now trying to force these people to sing the "Kimigayo" national anthem at school functions.
During World War II, I was shipped out to a southern front as an army interpreter. There, I witnessed the execution of a POW.
A colleague of mine was ordered to execute a Black captive. I had already made up my mind by then to kill myself if I should be ordered to kill someone. Ever since, I have continued to ask myself: "What if that order had been issued to me?"
The prison brutalities in Iraq came to light because someone blew the whistle. I, on the other hand, never ratted on my colleague who executed the African-American POW because I did not believe that justice could be served by the U.S. authorities trying war criminals.
The media are trying to find out whether the prisoner abuses in Iraq were systematic or the doings of aberrant individuals.
But even if the individual soldiers who are charged had been ordered to do what they did, could they not have disobeyed? I do not think anyone has asked this question yet.
epg - I know THEY do, I turn them away all the time. The question was, how often do the followers of Islam show up at your door and ask you if you have saved? I tell them yes, but I am losing my shirt on the IRAs.
It is the Christians who ask about being saved. That was a pun. The point being, I don't know of any Muslims who practice street evangelism or door to door proselytizing.
'I don't know of any Muslims who practice street evangelism or door to door proselytizing.'
That's because they seem to prefer the going from plane to building and knife to throat approaches.
yoy,
remember Jim Jones and Jonestown, Guyana? He said he was Christian. There will always be extremist factions in any ideological or religous group who perform violent acts they believe will further their cause. I was simply stating that by Bush allowing Christian missonaries to travel to the middle east is only increasing the already existing hatred towards the west.
Having freedom is not easy. You have to fight to keep it. If you are not willing to fight and DIE for your freedom, then you are not deserving of having any. Living is not for the lazy. There are to many selfserving, Lazy, Complaining people in the USA. They are unwilling to make any sacrifice to keep there freedom that many have died for. We do not make war because its fun, we do it because we have to. Real Men do the things that are not fun or enjoyable. A great man once said, " If a man hasnt found something he is willing to die for, he isnt fit to live". Islam hates Jews and Christians. Dont blame the Jew and Christain, blame Mohammed and allah, the moon god!
Anonymous, you are wrong.
The animus arab moslems feel towards the rest of the non-moslem world has nothing to do with christian missionaries, for whom the penalty is death in saudi arabia, or the israeli state, or ....
It is based on two realities.
The first is the poison ideology called islam and the second is the pathetic failure of arab muslims to create a society that anyone, even they, want to live in.
Lies and denial in their societies, together with outright thugery, as in murder, eliminate any possibility of rethinking, reformulation and renewal.
So we are left in the strange conundrum where most arab moslems want to emigrate to the west, and most arab moslems express hatred and distain for the west. Talk about twisted.
Add to that the highest birthrate in the world (approx), meaning that the average income in saudi has dropped by over 50% in the last 20 years despite the fortune in oil revenue flowing there, together with appalling governance, and you have the strange and critical situation that they are in today.
YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME.
CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES ARE NOT TO BLAME.
ISRAEL IS NOT TO BLAME.
Anonymous
And if I said I was a Martian would you believe me?
The worst thing that Christians seem to be guilty of in your eyes, is knocking on doors handing out leaflets with such heinous blasphemy as 'Love thy neighbour' and 'God Loves you'
You can see how that could send any sane reasonable person right over the edge.
Hmmm.. I never considered the Jews. I guess what is going on in the Gaza Strip only helps to show the Arab nations how we in the west are good people just looking for freedom. That is an interesting concept. My feelings are that if Palastine is a world nation with recognized borders, and we stop sending Christian evangelists to other countries, maybe the violence towards the west would stop.
Bar,
right on. Let me add, real men AND real women.
You can even take out the 'real'. Any person who understands history, knows that the freedoms we enjoy required the sacrifice of many brave men and women.
It is true to say that, as soon as we are unwilling to put our lives, male and female, on the line to protect freedom, we will start losing freedom.
And the attitude in western europe suggests to me that many there have forgotten that reality.
Hope the bastard felt the burn of the bullets and that he saw his God. His God will be found in a mirror. I hope he has been outcast to hell and that he will suffer for the rest of his existence. I hope that he suffered for several minutes before his heart and brain stopped working. I hope that all of those who feel the same way as him meet the same fate. Paul Johnson on the other hand has the hearts of the whole world. Jihad believers will burn here as well as there after death existence.
The Eagle Flys High and always will. Christianity will live on. I hate no man who can find solice and peace in his religion. I want world peace and I want the USA to continue its melting pot ideals. We are all the worlds children and I hope and pray that the wrongs committed by my country will meet justice. I would never kill another except in war or protection for the things and people that I love.
The Eagle
The Eagle,
Your message was very patriotic up until you mentioned Christianity and the melting pot, if we in the US are supposed to be a melting pot, then why is Christian morality legislated? I would think that a melting pot has many different ingredients at many different ratios.
Dear, silly, anonymous,
the arabs who live in the gaza strip are not palestinians, they are arabs.
These arabs, by the way, have an average of 7 1/2 children per women, so, you better find a whole lot more land than just palestine and israel to give them to keep them happy.
Oh, and how may U.N. votes would you like to give this group of arabs who now, though not 30 years ago, call themselves palestinians; one vote for the gaza strip, a second vote for the west bank, a third vote for Jordan which is in fact a country with a 'palestinian' majority.
Why not just give all the votes at the U.N. to arabs, though this seems hardly necessary as, together with their moslem empire, they totally control the U.N. anyway.
The arabs in 'palestine', by the way, took that territory via military invasion, the same way they took Spain.
Now you may want to say 'history has ended, you get to keep what you have right now,' or you may wish to say that history continues, and the jews and christians who lost israel/palestine to the arabs, as the christians who lost Spain to the moslems, have the right to attempt to regain their homelands.
The Spanish didn't regain all their territory from the moslems till the 19th century, the Greeks and the Bulgarians, the Macedonians and others didn't regain their lands from the moslems until the 19th century.
History has not ended, and the arabs cannot have the land they have stolen by force.
Now, if you would say ' the arabs living in the gaza strip and the west bank must have some rights from living there for hundreds of years, no matter that they acquired the land be force,' i would agree.
Robert wrote: "For what ultimately killed Paul Johnson was the conviction that non-Muslims have no right to be in Saudi Arabia, in accord with the Prophet Muhammad's dictum." To this I add all the other Jihad literature also played a role, including the 154 Jihad Verses in the Koran:
www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm
anonymous
Yes of course, if we give the 'Palestinians' a state, and stop evengelical Christians from travelling to the Middle East, then the slaughter of Hindus in Kashmir is sure to stop. The churches in Kosovo and Indonesia will magically reassemble themselves overnight, as will the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan. Sudanese slaves will be set free, and Jews in France will be safe to walk the streets once more.
I think you can find similar passages, not in the same context, in the old testament of the Holy Bible.
Antijihad,
being a "self-serving" American who believes in an isolationist policy, I would say "let all nations of the world worry about THEIR problems" But we, as Americans, don't need to aggravate the situation by having Christians out there spreading THEIR (and I do emphasize "their") word unto the nations.
I'm sure that Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh would love to get a hold of me!
Dear Anonymous,
I find your objection to Christians coming to your door to share the Good News of Jesus Christ with you hypocritical.
In another article on this website a friend of Mr. Johnson's, a muslim, is quoted as saying the following. 'I hereby declare my protection and rescue for this man along with all his colleagues who work with us in the company, who ate with us and accepted our gifts of Islamic books which they promised to read,' wrote Mr Saad Al-Moemen.
If Mr. Johnson had offered to share the Good News of Jesus Christ with his fellow muslim workers, I can tell you what would have happened. He would have been imprisoned and tortured. Currently, there is a Christian by the name of Brian O'Connor from India who has been imprisoned for over a month. He is being TORTURED! This is confirmed. The Vatican is intervening on his behalf.Unfortunately, this is not the exception.
If you live in the United States, you can attend mosque or build one, build islamic schools, and share your faith with anyone FREE of reprisal.
This Freedom does not exist in Saudi Arabia nor Jordan, nor Egypt, nor Indonesia nor Nigeria. Dhimmitude that is espoused in Islamic Law is nothing short of Religous Apartheidism.
When a Church or Synagogue is built in Saudi Arabia, I will then believe that Islam is a tolerant and peaceful religion.
If you don't like Christians coming to your door sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ, "Loving your neighbor as yourself, Loving God with your whole heart, strength, will and mind, and forgiving people their transgressions and you yourself prosletyze to convert people to Islam, your are the worst kind of hypocrite and I will gladly show you the door.
John
Anonymous,
So it's wrong for Christian missionaries to *peacefully* preach the Gospel to non-Christians in Arabia, but it's OK for Arab Muslims to *slaughter* 2 million black Christians (and even black Muslims) in Sudan since 1983, who won't submit to their Muslim/Arabized ways? Or what they're doing to their fellow black Muslims in Mauritania. That's good logic. Yet we hear so little about *this* war (ongoing for centuries). Not only is Islam a morally bankrupt religion, it is also an extremely racist one (abid - the word for 'slave' and 'filth' is the same as 'black')
Dear anonymous,
History 101: Okay, regardless of all the revisionist history you may have read or the way you think the the United States should work, this country was founded on Christian principles. The Christian God was invoked regularly by our founding fathers. He's in our pledge of allegiance, on our money, in our songs and in the hearts of millions and millions of our people. (Even though the libs in this country are trying to eradicate him from these institutions, YOU AND I AND ALMOST EVERYONE OVER 40 ON THIS WEBSITE REMEMBER LEARNING ABOUT THIS AND HAVING THIS BE AROUND US WHEN WE WERE GROWING UP.)He also has a set of rules that when followed, make life pretty good for the people who truly follow them and the people in their orbit. Stuff like, turn the other cheek, do good to those who abuse you, if you have two coats and someone is cold, give him one. Most people find this ideology preferable to the eye-for-an-eye mentality.
I once knew a Moslem man who used to tell me all the time that I should become a Moslem. I told him that knowing Jesus Christ and Who He is would never allow me to join a "religion" that does not acknowledge Him for the God that he is. Maybe you don't believe that and that's okay, because He gave you a freewill. But I told my friend that when it came to comparing Mohammed to Jesus, what was it that Mohammed did that was so great? I pointed out that Jesus said He would die and then come back to life. And as far as I know (from His contemporary witnesses, not just my own faith,) He's the only one who ever did. The thing that was worth noticing after I said this was that my Moslem friend who never was at a loss for words, just shut up after that. He had no argument.
Whatever you may think the Christian religion is about, it was founded and is still held in the hands of the true God Who made us all. The other one was made up by a guy who's been dead for more than a millenium. That concept is worth contemplating.
John,
Saudi Arabia nor Jordan, nor Egypt are consider a melting pot. They have their beliefs, which I respect, and would prefer to be left alone. Just as I would prefer not to hear about your "good news" whatever that may be. And no, I don't want to hear it because I know the "Roman road" and all of the other beliefs and ideals that people like you push on other people. I don't mean to offend you because I too, love all people of the world unless I have a reason to do otherwise. And I do not let someones beliefs or the actions of a minority affect that view.
Anonymous, New study shows that conservaties go to church, liberals go to hell... Sorry bad joke... This is a Christian Nation, Founded on Christian values.
By Christian men. Christians dont force God on you, they offer it to you, pretty much the same way a sales person offers you there product. Do sales people cause you the same hatred? Maybe its your conscience thats eating you? Not the Christians.
Denise,
I disagree, the United States was not founded on "Christian" beliefs. The US was founded to avoid taxation and the church of England. This country was intendted to be a "melting pot", a safe haven for people of all cultures, and all beliefs. When someone refers to "God" that can mean many things to many cultures. That is what America and the founding of America is all about.
Anonymous,
At least you have the option of tuning out if you don't want Christian missionaries on your doorstep. Too bad my many of my black brethren over in Africa don't have that option when Arab Islamic missionaries / militias rape, expel, slaughter, and then use their land to launch jihadist attacks. How about Arab Muslims staying in Arabia and not trying to take over the African continent?
I don't see what is wrong with Christianity and Christians trying to help others in foreign worlds. We are peaceful about it, if you do not want to hear the Gospel, we are not going to cut your head off because you refuse to convert. Jesus Christ represents peace, Allah and his followers pretend to be peaceful but look at those who were AMERICAN and were beheaded by Muslems! What is peaceful about that? Listen, you don't believe and that's your choice but don't put down something you know nothing about. Missionaries do hard work everyday risking their lives and their families lives in the name of Jesus and they deserve the respect. I wish Americans would never leave the US and go into these countries that hate us and all Americans working there need to come home so that they can be safe in their own country. What about missions that focus their efforts on children in third world countries, should they stop helping them because they are Christian? Give me a break, this is not about Christianity, it's about Radical Islam which must be stopped.
Anonymous,
Fair enough.
John
Here is a link that DrMack posted in an other thread. It's a long, yet very informative read on the mess in Saudi Arabia.
http://foi.missouri.edu/evolvingissues/fallhouseofsaud.html
I think its a receipe called "Islamic Soup"
take unlimited petro dollars
add corruption and greed
stir it all into a death-cult religious broth
(fool people into thinking it tastes good)
with luck it will make you sick before it kills you.
bar,
you ASSUME that I am a liberal Democrat. I wonder how many other people think that I am a liberal just because I am not afraid to go against the grain and say what I believe. So let me get this straight, in order to be called a conservative, I must go to a Christian chruch?
Dear Anonymous,
You can disagree all you want to but the fact is that the people who first came to America were, in fact, Christians. They were not Hindus, Animasts, Buddists or Moslems. They brought their faith with them. Their laws were based on principles that went way back to when England was the seat of Christendom. In the late 16th and early 17th centuries, when the first Europeans were coming over here, there was no separation of church and state in France, Spain or England, for that matter.
To say that America was intended to be a melting pot and a safe haven for people of all cultures and beliefs is false. That it ended up becoming that is true. The first colonists came to escape religious persecution, but they were still Christians and they practiced their Christianity and created their laws based on Christian principles. I mean, come on. That's a no brainer. They brought and spread their Christian beliefs just as much as they brought and held to English Common Law, which we still practice in many states in our country to this day. You either haven't been doing your homework or you've been brainwashed by our liberal infested, revisionist history pushing institutions of higher learning.
By the way, may Paul Johnson rest in peace and his family be comforted at this terrible time for them.
And Hugh, I'm praying for you that God will hold you in HIs hands and keep you safe.
You are speaking about many things, I would like to say that christians, or catholics or protestants or orthodox must evagelize the muslim world, with the peacefully message of Jesus, never with a sword, because Jesus said to Peter, who fights with a sword, a sword will die,( excuse my no-literatity of the sentence), the religious freedom is the main right, without him, isn´t possible, the culture, the respect for the others, the tolerance, the justice, all the rights, the right to be atheist or agnostic in USA or in Spain in my country, must be a right not only in the Western World but in the Muslim world too,
The building of a powerful mosque in Rome, the Capital of catholicism that we have to respect other religions but without a tolerance in Saudi Arabia, this respect can be expressed like a sign of weakness
The refusal of Saudi Arabia to allow to USA the building of a church in the american embassy, was a intolerable imposition, because it´s american territory, and this middle-aged mentality is very idiot.
Greetings and I would like to express all my condemn against this wild act without USA and Paul Johnson.
Dear, foolish, Anonymous,
do not use texts from the Bible, Old Testament, to rationalize moslem poison ideology.
The Old Testament dates thousands of years before Christ; some of it may be taken literally, some of it metaphorically, and some as evidence of what was ok. then, and how far we have moved in our understanding.
Mohammed was born 600 years after Christ, yet his laws are barbaric.
There is no room for islam in this world as islam is presently constituted, and all the world faiths, hindu, christian, jewish, zoroastrian, jane, buddist, shinto, confucian, pagan, etc, agree on this. Islam, by its laws, has to eliminate all the above save christians and jews, and they must be subjugated, enslaved.
Denise,
You are right about there being no seperation in church and state in the pre-colonization times, just as it is accurate to say that the same thing our fore fathers were trying to escape has occured here in the United States with legislated Christian morality. We as Americans are selfish to assume that the social values of every society should be the same as ours. I can understand why so many people hate us, as much as I don't like it.
Anonymous,
I just assumed liberal, Not a democrat.
Is this a great county or what!
Mentat said, “Finally, if the US just wanted oil, they could have just invaded Canada. Including the oil sands, Canada has proven reserves of 180 billion barrels which is greater than that of Iraq. (http://www.rense.com/general37/petrol.htm)”
Hmm… you don’t’ actually have to invade us, I’m sure we would be happy to sell it to you. We have been doing so up till now. Invading us would just annoy the hell out of us.
“Your grandchildren will be non-muslim buyers of Canadian Oil, Guaranteed Jihad Free!”
Franze,
I do not expect other nations of the world to experience the same freedoms we have here in the United States for one reason... They are not the United States. We fought for our freedom! Our country will accept anyone who wants to move here for political asylum. If the individuals of a specific country want change, let them achieve it. And I'm sure that as long as they are pushing Christian morality, the Bush administration would be more then happy to provide them with economic aid.
Anonymous,
This country was founded on the principals found in the BIBLE, not the Qu'ran, but the BIBLE and therefore Christianity is a strong religion in the US. Our founding fathers went to church and could quote the bible, you need to look in the history books because you saying our country was not founded on the bible and that is not true. England ruled us and we fought for our freedom, ever hear of the Crusades? HOLY Wars, and look at England and it's strong religious beliefs. Okay fine so you don't believe in God I really don't care but to put down those missionaries who go door to door is really not right. You have no idea what freedoms we have living in America take what Molotov is saying, that is no joke. So who cares if you have to put up with door to door preaching, those people really don't mean any harm, yes they can be bothersome and it's the same ole song and dance but speaking as a Christian, spreading the gospel and teaching about Jesus is something I am glad I am allowed to do without being killed. Don't attack Christianity, personally I really don't care if you don't attend Christian church, that's not my problem and I really don't care, but I won't allow you to spread falsehoods about my faith. Stick to an argument which you know more about. Christianity is not one of them.
Bar,
Yes, this is a great country! Where everyone can not necessarily agree, but be respectfull of everyones ideas! Have a great weekend!
Annie,
That is fine, in the United States, if the Christians or any other group want to waste their time and come to my door, well... guess what, that is what the freedom we have in the United States is about. And I respect that freedom. But I do not, cannot, and will not, support the proselytizing of foreign nations. You Christians go to foreign countries to offer food to people who really need it, and I respect you for that. It should end with that. But guess what, it doesn't. You hand out bibles, and tell them that they are going to hell for believing in their God. That sounds like tolerance to me. But wait, I know, you are going to say you do it because you "Love" them. Whatever.. I just don't subscribe to it. And it is quite obvious that the middle east countries don't as well. So why antagonize them?
anonymous said, “…and we stop sending Christian evangelists to other countries, maybe the violence towards the west would stop.”
Strange.. I have been to places like Korea where there is now a substantial Christian population, Thailand where Christians try to convert Buddhists and India where Mother Theresa did so much work. In none of those places did I see any hate against “The West” for sending peaceful Christian missionaries. Africa has lots of Christians working in various places trying to convert the locals, no problem. It is only a problem in Islamo countries for some reason. I see Mosques in Italy, home of the Catholic Church, but no Catholic churches in Saudi Arabia. Why not? Because they are a religion of hate and intolerance, that is why not. Plain and simple.
“Your grandchildren will hand out Christian pamphlets on the street corners of Mecca.”
I am agree with you Anymous, the freedom is a great gift and there are to fight for get it, but I live well in a democracy and a freedom system and I would like to spread this good system to muslims and to everywhere,
It´s truth that there are a lot of muslims that don´t want the freedom and the democracy because there aren´t their valours, but with this truth, we have to ask, then the mankind want the same rights? because if the answer, is not, is a very sad conclusion, there are many people that prefer the lights of the cave in the Plato´s books that the sun, but I think that many people slaved and without rights want our rights and we have to fight for them.
In addition, the other question, the muslims don´t want our rights, our valours, but they want to respect ours, and like the answers is no, the problems begins.
Greetings
Franze,
That is a very interesting observation and I agree with everything you've said! They "don't" want our values imposed upon them. An isolationist policy towards the middle east would ease the tensions without any doubt. To each his own!
For Anonymous: Leaving aside the fact that there are a few Christian/Western missionaries in the Middle East, I would like to remind you that the vast majority of Christians in the Middle East are indigenous peoples, the Copts of Egypt, the Assyrians of Iraq and Iran, the Maronites of Lebanon. There are also ancient communities of Jews in Iran and Syria. There are also the Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran, a pre-Christian sect, and the Zorastians in Iran, a very ancient sect that predates the Jewish faith. And what do these faith communities have in common? They have suffered fear, humiliation, destruction and pogroms throughout the centuries, since the domination of Islam in the Middle East. I can assure you that these communities are not going door to door to evangelize anyone. They know that would mean torture and death from their peaceful Muslim neighbors. They are just trying to survive on the edges of the Islamic socieites in which they live. For centuries, all of these people have been known as "dhimmis," and treated as second class citizens in their own countries. Of course, I do not need to remind you that Islam is the last religion to be founded on the list of religions that I named that are indigenious to the Middle East.
Dear Anonymous,
"We as Americans are selfish to assume that the social values of every society should be the same as ours."
Excuse me while I hurl. Are you just on this site to irritate us? I don't give a rat's patoot about forcing, encouraging, cajoling, blackmailing or otherwise causing any other country to accept my values. I'm talking about being able to enjoy my country's values, diverse as they may be, in MY country without apologizing to some damn foreigner because they are offended by some benign thing that I do, have always done, and will continue to do in my country, whether it offends them or not. The fact that it offends them OFFENDS ME very much.
These people need to watch their manners when they are in MY country, as I would fully expect myself to do in their country. By the very tone and substance of the ideology that they spew, they do not watch their manners and I for one, will not tolerate it anymore, in my country. If you think that makes me selfish then you are naive as well as mistaken.
I think maybe you need to go spend some time in one of their countries. The old adage that all liberals are conservatives that just haven't been mugged yet, fully applies here.
This is a very interesting site (kinda harsh on the muslims though) and i am glad atleast the people here are frank abt their views. Lets just put it this way simple and short if Iraq invaded kuwait let muslim kill muslim,if sudan kills its citizens its again muslims killing muslims. Are 2000 kurdish citizens more important than 1 million citizens of rwanda. Why dont u ask Israel to stop bombing and killing palestinians and go back to pre 1962 border lines and build up a fence there and kill any palestinian who dares come even a 100 metres close to the wall. END OF ISRAEL PALESTINIAN CONFLICT. Now let me remind all so called "historians" to read history better (cause america has no history just like australia) and find out who invented ALGEBRA or who knew that the Earth was round and the sun was the center of the universe when 1400 yrs ago Christian Europe was still debating whether a cave was a better shelter or a hut. Agreed today muslims are backward impoverished morons with nothing better to do than fight. But hold on a second have a look at the score of muslim nations. All are ruled by various dictators and monarchs with varying degrees. All have one thing in common either they are supported openly by the United states or propped up by them (anyone ....SADDAM HUSSEIN). Who cares for the Saudi government. Its is not Islamic.... its just puts up a show of Islam to please a few hardline nutcase clerics. No country on Earth right now is Islamic. I hope America gets to its senses and before invading Iraq or Syria invades Saudi first and then Egypt (which has the same president for 30yrs). Help muslims rid of these people PLZ PLZ we beg of u OH!! mighty Americans