From MSNBC, with thanks to DC Watson, who notes: So much for the truce. But in Islamic law, truces are to be concluded only in order to allow the Muslim forces to gather strength to fight again.
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Shiite gunmen seized an Iraq police station Thursday in the Shiite holy city of Najaf in the first outbreak of fighting since an agreement to end weeks of bloody clashes between U.S. troops and militia forces. Four Iraqis were killed and 13 were injured, hospital and militia officials said.Gunmen loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr took control of the Ghari police station, which is 250 yards from the Imam Ali Shrine, witness Mohammed Hussein said. The station was looted and police cars were burned.
"We sent a quick reaction unit to assist the policemen defending the station, but they were overwhelmed by al-Sadr fighters," said Najaf Gov. Adnan al-Zurufi. "We will solve this problem as soon as possible. We will ask for the help of the Americans, if necessary."
The most difficult question in your mind is that How Muslim Brothers and Sisters can be so united together against your military oppression. In your stereotypical World of Holy Islam, The world that is pictured for you by your corrupted leaders and their propaganda ilk, The Muslims are described as divided. And That is exactly why you can'y understand The Unity Of Muslim Brothers And Sisters In Holy Iraq against the Occupying Force Of america. We saw How Symbolic And Glorious Sunnis And Shias Prayed Together In Baghdad And They Stand Together Untill The Last Poor american Soldier is out of here and Gone Home. This is Why you try to categorized and labled Muslim as If I call Our Brother Sadr an Imam, you will immediately assume I am a Shia. Because of that heavy propaganda around your mind which stops you to learn the reality. Go and re-think about your strategies. They will Never Work.
Moe
God must be upset with your kind because the Mountains are on Fire in that part of the world! Guess he does not like what you kind is doing burning churches!
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her Give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen
PS was it water or sand?
Moe
So this is why they are killing Iraqis because they love music?
A mortar attack killed 12 Iraqi soldiers Wednesday in Fallujah, the scene of fierce battles between Iraqi insurgents and U.S. troops last April.
Witnesses said gunmen fired at least four mortars at a military camp occupied by Iraqi forces in charge of maintaining security in the city.
In addition to the 12 dead, the attack injured 10 troops.
The Iraqi forces deployed in Fallujah in April under a truce agreement, ending six weeks of fierce battles that killed hundreds of Iraqis and dozens of U.S. troops.
Residents of Fallujah denounced Wednesday's mortar attack saying, It is a criminal act aimed at inciting strife and re-creating tensions.
Those who did such act are definitely from
outside Fallujah, one resident told UPI.
Mortar Attack Kills 12 Iraqi Soldiers
Very Poud of the American People they are not living in Fear but in Freedom today is Proof! Look at how they turned out to send off President Reagan?
Par of the American Tribe
God bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the Course to Victory Amen
PS you were saying that the Iraqi people you you killers boy you got that Wrong!!!
"Part of the American Tribe
God bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the Course to Victory Amen"
is this some kind of christian crusade?
why do you need to bring god into this... have you ever thought that maybe god doesnt care about one side over the other. if god really cared so much and islam was so great and christianity was sooo great then why does he allow all this crap to happen. or all off the crap currently happening in africa or the nazi's persucution of the jews.
screw religion...
joseph:
I think it's in everyone's best interest here to avoid sparking heated debate amongst us anti-Jihadists, even if your opinion of theistic religion is low.
Remember that not all religions are theistic, so the current events of our troubled world don't have to be explained away by fuzzy logic in my school of thought.
Anyway, let's just keep things civil.
Mahmoud,
A quick question for you. Since the "foreign invaders" have had the audacity to defile your Holy Land with the footprints of infidels, why are so many from Arab states in Europe, America, and Aisa?
I've never been to Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or any of the other Arab nations, and have no desire to ever travel to that area - the crotch of the world.
It seems as though someone has managed to fill your mind (and many others) with the absurd belief that Allah is incapable of ridding the world of undesirables, and needs your help. Obviously your concept of the Great Power differs drastically from mine, and the difference is OK - we all have a free will. You and I have bet that our respective beliefs are correct, and indeed that is what faith is based on. The atrocities you claim as instruments of "furthering Allah's Glory", however, are not OK. You and I have sealed that bet with our very souls, and I pray that your soul is fire-proof. A word of advice - for the hereafter, pack light; I don't think you'll be needing that winter coat.
Everyone seems to be overlooking what I, at least, feel is the most important part of the article. Let me post it again, which emphasis added:
"We sent a quick reaction unit to assist the policemen defending the station, but they were overwhelmed by al-Sadr fighters," said Najaf Gov. Adnan al-Zurufi. "We will solve this problem as soon as possible. We will ask for the help of the Americans, if necessary."
Folks, the Iraqi people are not relying on the coalition forces for their security. They aren't looking for us to come in and save the day. They have developed the resolve to take control of their own destiny.
I think Mahmoud, who is actually a Sunni and probably a Baathist, is scared sh_tless that the Shia are smart enough not to fall for Sunni Baathist plans to regain power.
I'm sorry, Mahmoud. The Kurds and the Shia see the future of Iraq.
And you aren't in it.
I live in the country in Arkansas and if a fox, coyote or wolf attacks my hen house I don’t try to sit down and reason with it, as I know that would be useless. It is the same with Muqtada al-Sadr and his crew. If the local Iraqi doesn't find some way to deal with these animals they will control the “hen house”.
Maybe, through their inaction, that is what they truly desire. I was always told to be careful of what you wish far as it many come true
The unity of musim brothers and sisters eh...
Well maybe we should give them back brother sadaam...pull him out of whatever cage he is currently squatting in, tell him hands off Israel, deal with him for oil and let him do whatever he wants with his muslim brothers and sisters...if he stays away from nuke programs and stays out of Israels face the US will look the other way when he deals with his "brothers and sisters"....yea form a little "unholy" allience with brother sadaam...
of course I am kidding but what do the Iraqis want...if the US leaves now Iraqis are not ready to secure the country, there will be no peace...once the country is stable (stable as they can be anyhow) Im all for them getting out...fast as possible.
Notice how the article said that the police station was "looted"...nothing in the koran about stealing huh...and if there is I guess gunmen loyal to al sadr must not be "real muslims"
Hey Mahmoud, if you don't want Western people on your land, then quit coming to ours. Deal?
The great part of this is that the governor of Najaf says he'll destroy these guys. The Iraqis have a stake in this and its their arses on the line. The Najaf governor is not shy about his intentions.
Hey Mahmoud, if you don't want Western people on your land, then quit coming to ours. Deal?
Posted by: Ariya at June 10, 2004 12:09 PM
Well How many times Brother Osama offered truce to you? What did you do? You ignorantly played your war drum and missed the chances and made Allah (swt) more and more mad at yourself.
Stop imposing Muslim countries and there is always a way for peace.
this is a classic imperialist tactic.
why bloody your hands when you can get the filthy natives to do your job for you. divide and rule.
Mr. Owens,
Your post proves again that americans have a "plan" for Iraq and the resistance of Brother Muslims in getting in the way. It's nice to see how you order me to be in the "game" or not.
No BoB, ( I can call you BoB, isn't it?) It's You that is Out. Iraqis exposed all your spies so please stop tricking Iraqis. By The Way, Your pupet Iraqi council will fall as soon as you and your ilk leave the country. Iraqis want an Islamic Government under the Devine Rules Of Almighty Allah (swt).
Once Again I have to tell you: America - Go and Fix Yourself.
hey mahmoud pig
in case you have not noticed, more and more european and USA troops are stepping on so-called muslim pig land. You, pig, can say all you want, but the reality is that the more your pig paedophile brothers keep yelling and threatening, the more the western powers react. Am I a liar, look at the map, pig.
Like I said, muslims are all talk and no action.
by the way what is your correct gps coordinates?
mahmoud,
have you ever been to iraq or any other muslim land. I have, and will go again, not for military, but because I was born there. I am not muslim. Funny how all except foreign arabs seem to want the troops to stay and rid Iraq of you pig fanatics. If You doubt me, look at "have your say" on bbc web. Read the comments from Iraq.
Pathetic. Islam needs reform soon, or we'll give it to them at the point of a rifle. The writing has been on the wall for so long, it drives me insane that it will end up taking something worse than 9/11 to bring the West fully awake.
If god wanted to eliminate all temptation on earth why did he give Adam and Eve the ability to do wrong? He did not tell Adam to cut down the apple tree and destroy all the fruit, he left the temptation there and gave Adam the ability to decide. If Adam and Eve where Islamic, they would have cut down the tree and killed anyone touching the fruit. A real god would have the ability to communicate with all people in their native language at the same time if they so desired. He would not use one MAN to subjugate and control other men and act as their god in enforcing rules and rewards on earth.
Well I guess mahmoud agrees with Brother Osama on every damn thing that son of a bitch has done since before Sept. 11th. Gee now I thought Muslims were against Osama and his evil ways but the way this guy speaks, he's probably part of his army. Every other Muslim on here, including Dina, Nisren and Aliyah have all spoken out against Osama and his doings except this guy. he calls him Brother, that once again proves our point. He is just another radical muslim that will end up dying/.
Mahmoud, my poor deluded Baathist friend,
Osama never offered a truce. He declared war on the United States. Not a very smart idea, as one by one governments that support him fall, and he is forced to live in holes like vermin.
It is funny how you can read what I wrote above and interpret it that way. Our plan for Iraq has been sovereignty with a free government, something that the United Nations just recently supported, by the way. We are delivering that plan.
You are partially right. We will soon be “out” as you say. Under our own terms, after accomplishing the goals we set out to accomplish. It must scare the hell out of you Sunnis that you will not be able to terrorize the Shia and the Kurds any more. The fact that they are standing up to you, and now in fact look at you with disgust, must be very chilling.
Never again will you enjoy the rape rooms.
Never again will you relish in the torture of scared women and innocent children.
Your time has passed, and you are relegated to a sad footnote in history.
Bob,
Excellent post! You are among one of a few regulars I enjoy reading.
bob who is standing up to the sunnis? the people in fallujah are seen as hero's by the shites and the sunnis alike. now the kurds are a different matter altogether they dont want to have anything to do with iraqi arabs. and if anything would rather have there own country. has Mahmoud come out and said that his polictal affiliation is of a bathist support?
Bob. it is very interesting how you still try to accuse this or that Muslim in order to create division and chaos between Muslims. I told you, It's not working, we know it, you will not be succeed.
We will soon be “out” as you say.Under our own terms, after accomplishing the goals we set out to accomplish.
Well in that case you will wander around the Iraqi deserts, looking for WMD stock piles for another 50 years. Or... is it called "securing the oil fields".... No Bob, prepare your back pack, you're going home. I hope you get it.
Try to adopt your own democracy and freedom in your own country first.
joseph,
I got some sound advice once, and so I figure I'll pass it along to you in the spirit of friendship:
Never beleive anything you hear, and only half of what you see.
Joseph said:
"is this some kind of christian crusade?
why do you need to bring god into this... "
Why do you need to leave God out of this?
"have you ever thought that maybe god doesnt care"
Have you ever thought that He does?
"about one side over the other. if god really cared so much and islam was so great and christianity was sooo great then why does he allow all this crap to happen."
Do you want to deprive man of the natural consequences of his actions? Don't be a baby. We can't learn anything if we exist in a cotton-candy world where every time someone screws up God swoops down to spare us from the consequences of our actions. Descartes has some interesting ruminations on how we know good and evil.
"or all off the crap currently happening in africa or the nazi's persucution of the jews.
Again, I have to point out the the most murderous ideology in history, communism, was founded upon atheism. Screw religion? Apparently atheism is much more deadly.
~NMJ
Moe, why are you so scared of freedom? You fight against people's right to make up their own minds whenever you can. So what if someone doesn't choose Allah? Isn't that between them and Allah? Why must Muslims live under only a Muslim government? You and Joseph seem to be on the same side of the fence -- both of you want earthly utopias where no bad things can ever happen. You differ only in your inhabitants. You don't want anyone but Muslims. Joseph doesn't want anyone with allegiances to anything but the state. Y'all are opposite sides on the same coin.
~NMJ
Our primary goal was to bring down the government that refused to live up to its own agreements. We did that.
It is a bonus that your extremists are so willing to join the 216-1 kill ratio we've maintained in your land. It means that the thugs are grinding themselves up, and good people in the region will have a chance at a better life without you standing in their way. But we do not stand against you alone.
Your countrymen are running out of compassion for you, Mahmoud. They are beginning to understand what they can have. They can taste freedom. The pendulum is swinging against you. It is gathering strength like a storm gathering in the desert, and when it blows through you, there will be nothing left of your once proud dictatorship but a sad memory.
I am not condoning what happened to the Iraqi prisoners...however, I think it
is vitally important that in my head I have these matters in proper
perspective...
* Saddam had Iraqi men, women and children put to death in human meat
grinders on a daily basis...NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...
*Saddam had people thrown off of 3 - 4 story buildings, while their relatives
were forced to watch...NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB
COMMUNITY...
* Saddam had people's tongues cut out, limbs chopped of, and even beheaded,
while their families were forced to watch...NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR
THE ARAB COMMUNITY...
* Saddam's sons, as well as other Administrators and military personnel raped
and sodomized Iraqi girls, some as young as 8 years old, on a daily
basis...NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...
* Saddam's regime indiscriminately put to death millions of Iraqi citizens on
a daily basis, during the term of his brutal dictatorship, as evidenced by
the mass graves recently uncovered in various parts of Iraq...NO OUTCRY FROM THE
IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...
* Terrorists recently exploded several car bombs in Baghdad, killing 17
innocent Iraqi children and several dozen innocent Iraqi citizens...NO OUTCRY FROM
THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...
* Terrorists have been killing American/Coalition soldiers on a daily basis
since we sent our troops, many of whom gave their lives on Iraqi soil, used US
taxpayer dollars to liberate the Iraqi people...NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI
PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...
* Four Americans were killed in Fallujah, their bodies were burned,
mutilated, dragged through the streets and hung on a bridge...while Iraqi people
cheered and stoned the bodies...NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB
COMMUNITY...
AND NOW, A FEW IRAQI PRISONERS HAVE BEEN HUMILIATED (poor babies).this IS war and the media loves it. this is WAR and people suffer.
if saddam would have captured these iraqi's he would have had there faces boiled in acid or these iraqi's would have been the gards doing the boiling.
YOUR false god is making you suffer
Bob,
Our primary goal was to bring down the government that refused to live up to its own agreements. We did that.
Your Secondary Goal was To Maintain Abu-Ghraib as It Was (or even worst...), accusing me of beeing a sunni so you can automatically bypass me in your strategies. In your theories, an "Ordinary Iraqi" is someone like Chalabi and every other pupet you try to impose on Iraqis. You can not comprehend someone opposing to both saddam and america. No that can't be an "Ordinary Iraqi" becuase he is against us. One of your many many short commings, Bob.
Then You have another Goal to maintain your grip on media and repeat the same propaganda you are so desperately fail to maintain these days in america itself.
As an Occupying Force, you shut down every newspaper you don't like and If you upset someone in Iraq, you act like a violant imposer and have no decency to accept the facts. american soldiers admitted many times that they were brainwashed before their invasion that Iraqis will welcome them with flowers. Now everybody knows it was a Lie. And Everybody knows there are no WMDs. Acting like nothing is happened will not help you elude your scandals.
Your List of "goals" goes on and on and "Ordinary Iraqis" doesn't mean anything for you. As an "Bad Apple", I can't imagine something else from you.
Your countrymen are running out of compassion for you, Mahmoud. They are beginning to understand what they can have.
No Bob, It's You that is Blind. You can't see, You don't want to see, and You delibratly act against the unity of Iraqis. It's Your Nightmare to see Iraqi people ruling themselves. Unfortunately it seems you all really believed what Chalabi was telling you. No, Iraqis will choose another path. The Rightous Path of Almighty Allah(swt) and your old trick of create division and chaos between Muslims by accusing me of beeing Sunni and other muslims as Shia so you can drain out Iraqi resources will not work anymore, becuase this time Iraqis are awake and You are just out of your dirty tricks.
As an Occupying Force, you shut down every newspaper you don't like…
We’ve shut down one paper, belonging to al Sadr, inciting riots. Hundreds of free Iraqi newspapers sprang up, for the first time without government “editors” interfering with the truth. I guess you must have missed that…
No WMDs? Try reading one of today’s free newspapers, Mahmoud. They just found 20 rocket motors for WMDs in Jordan. I guess you didn’t see that, either.
It's Your Nightmare to see Iraqi people ruling themselves...
My, you are off your meds today, aren’t you?
We aren’t out of tricks, Mahmoud.
We just don’t need to use any.
Try reading one of today’s free newspapers, Mahmoud. They just found 20 rocket motors for WMDs in Jordan.
Are You adding Jordan to your 'axis of Evil' list officialy? Pushing The Panic Button over and over again. There is no end to this for you. Da Imposer is your name.
Bob Da Imposer, I figured out it's better than Baghdad Bob which you suggested before.
Actually, they were being sold as scrap metal, and nothing to panic about. Kinda like the Republican Guard...
Mahmoud,
You may call me names all you would like. I promise I won't think any less of you for it.
Besides, as your delusions of a return to power crumb into dust, crying out is all you have left.
bob's right about the newspapers in iraq, this is part of there new freedom. sadly they also have the right to teach a 7yr old child to use an Ak 47 and breed hate. your false god tells you to hate non beleavers [what an evil thing] my God says to pray for you.
we have only a short time on earth, only til you find God in your life can you live in peace. til then we will fight the devil. one demon is gone from the iraqi goverment. let the people of iraq that want life, happyness, freedom and the right to live for god instead of die for him pevail. the real people of iraq have suffered and God said there would be suffering. and the price of freedom is not cheap. only after saddam and after the evil muslims of death and hatred will the iraqis be able to have the things every normal person wants, life, family a job. to walk among friends without the worry of some freak blowing himself up. WMD Warloving Muslim Demons
"Islam is a cult, a false religion, get used to the idea. The earth isn't flat, and the sun does not set in a muddy pond. Your rock god isn't the all knowing, it's just a rock. The Quarish knew Muhammad was a fraud 1400 years ago, listen to them."
you need to get it out of your head that Islam is a cult. why? because it isnt. it is a world-recognized religion. cults are not recognized, they are just there. "the earth isnt flat, and the sun does not set in a muddy pond." yea, we know that. if it is something new to you, then good for you! knowledge is power. "Your rock god isn't the all knowing, it's just a rock." what rock god? and you say you know more about islam then me or dina. "The Quarish knew Muhammad was a fraud 1400 years ago, listen to them." have you any idea how many people accepted Islam during that time? a lot, i can tell you. they were struck by the profoundness of the Holy Quran and knew that those words cannot be uttered by a human being, and thus accepted Islam. p.s- you spelled "Quraish" wrong.
Words like these do NOT come from God. (3 different translations included so we don't hear the old 'out of context' rant or 'only in Arabic' nonsense.) :
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
[And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful.]
[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
aliyah: "you need to get it out of your head that Islam is a cult. why? because it isnt. it is a world-recognized religion."
Is "worldliness", holyness?
"By their fruits you will know them." (false prophets) - Jesus Christ
ALIYAH: "have you any idea how many people accepted Islam during that time? a lot, i can tell you. they were struck by the profoundness of the Holy Quran and knew that those words cannot be uttered by a human being"
They were struck by the profoundness of Quran my a**!!! they were struck by the muslim sword, forcefully converted, their kids kidnapped and conscripted (to become the elite janisseries -- the muslims were'nt even back then able to fight they sat and smoked in Istanbul) or bled under oppressive tributes.
Oh, how many muslim pagan hordes did not invade Wallachia only to get beaten badly and thrown south over the Danube.When they stumbled in routs it so happened that they were facing Mecca (south) so many times in their cowardly retreats that back in Wallachia we used to joke over a drink that thats where they have their religious custom from... :)
p.s. In times of glory and prosperity homosexuality was blooming in Istanbul. So much for the moral high-ground muslims now try to portray. Its only their weakness and envy talking friends, dont mind them. Wealth and Power usually brings vice. When they were wealthy and powerful they showed no moral superiority. They caved in to it like any human would.
The Sultan had homosexual relations. Historically documented! So much with Benny Laden bed-side stories of a glorious and pure Ummah.
So aliyah... you're talking fiction here... Quran was never accepted freely. People either did it under the sword or hoping to get rid of the destructive tax. Like I said... Profoundness... yeah,right!
Importan points about Muhammad, from a college research essay I once wrote. I tried to stay as objective to the materials I was working with as possible.:
"But while these clues would at face value seem to make Muhammad out to be a peaceful man primarily, a case could be made that he was far more ambitious and cunning. After all, there were no witnesses to his supposed divine meetings with the angel, and he'd already proven his shrewdness at the Ka'ba. What if his meditations at Mount Hira were nothing more than brain storming sessions and Muhammad devised a remarkable plan to gain power, to which the very nature of these lonely meditations simply lent fuel for the fire? Could this really have been his true motivation?
Take for example the very interesting case of the Satanic Verses. The Quraysh, powerful merchants that became the first opposition to Muhammad's messages, had proven to be a bit of a nuisance. They were grafted to the old pagan ways and refused to worship one God. At the same time, they took force of arms against Muhammad and his Muslim followers more than once. And it was around this time that something that was viewed as a bit of a compromise by Muhammad came out of his "revelations". Muhammad actually said that three important female idols at the Ka'ba could be worshiped as gods and that this would be acceptable to Allah (God). But then later, Muhammad said that he had another revelation that countered this earlier one. The first message must have come from Satan, and not God at all. Thus, these revelations later became called the Satanic Verses.
This, of course, infuriated the Quraysh, who stepped up their attacks on Muslims. Who could blame them. The reversal of revelations seemed a bit too convenient. This reversal also wouldn't seem to be the move of a pacifist. This was the doing of a very clever man, indeed.
Violence against Muslims now increased from the pagan Quraysh, Muhammad found himself forced to flee Mecca. And within a few years his greatest change occurred: Muhammad the Prophet became Muhammad the General.
At first these militaristic changes took place in subtle ways, when for instance, to Muhammad's dismay, Jews in the region were not so quick to convert to Islam as he had at first hoped, nor were they ready to give him their loyalty. Though he tried to get the Jews to see the similarities between Judaism and Islam, even by adopting some similar practices, like praying towards Jerusalem, it wasn't enough to sway the staunch Jews. So, it wasn't long before the direction of prayer was changed toward the Ka'ba in Mecca. Once again, showing his shrewdness, Muhammad placed the power of God at the Ka'ba, even though that had been a pagan ritual site for generations before Islam.
Next, Muhammad took it upon himself to lead actual raids versus his enemies to steal camels and goats, and sometimes even women. This was an ancient Arabian practice wherein actual killing was to be avoided, because killing meant blood feuds between tribes. But then the concept of jihad arrived. Jihad is understood to mean basically "holy war." And Muhammad told his followers this was the only kind of warfare Muslims could take part in. Jihad basically became a way for Muhammad to wage war when it suited the needs of Muslims, and a way for Arab Muslims to disassociate themselves from former tribal ties.
The entire idea of Muhammad the peacemaker suddenly becomes much harder to believe. At Mount Uhud, near Medina, Muhammad is almost killed, struck by a stone and glanced by a sword as his first small army of 300, on a raid against perhaps the largest trade caravan of the year, defeated a larger army of Meccans which came to its defense. His followers took Muhammad to safety and as word of his victory "for God" spread, bedouins started to come under his banner and convert to Islam.
Through the course of time, Muhammad's forces would grow from 300 to 3,000 and then to 30,000 strong. Muhammad showed skill at defense, defeating a force of over 10,000 Quraysh by having a giant trench built and harvesting the outlying crops so no food could be found for the larger enemy force. Eventually the Quraysh were forced to return home. To Muhammad's credit, this resulted in very few deaths on either side. Muhammad the conqueror would eventually lead an army of 10,000 in victory to take Mecca without so much as a fight, and here he smashed the pagan idols at the Ka'ba. Within two years much of Arabia had sworn allegiance to Islam.
But beyond the military campaigns Muhammad waged, there were incidents of aggression versus Jews that go far beyond the scope of what might make Muhammad out to be a peace seeker. Instead, his actions would tend to put him in questionable territory. Of note was a large Jewish tribe that Muhammad believed was preparing to take action against him. He laid siege to this tribe in their stronghold and when they eventually surrendered, every man was executed and the women and children were sold as slaves, so as to send a warning to anyone else that might oppose him. This destruction in 627 may have been the only time the Prophet ordered such bloodshed, and smaller Jewish groups were allowed to exist in Islamic communities as long as they posed no political threat. However, as Islam has developed into a theocracy, it is a bit idealistic to believe that the Jews weren't pushed out on religious grounds as much as for political gain.
Muhammad was a very complex individual. Shrewd. Pious. Perhaps ambitious and ruthless at times. Where the actual truth lies is hard to tell. To call Muhammad a peaceful man might work, but only under specific circumstances in history, because there is too much clear evidence of a warlike nature at other times to make him out to be a dove. Muhammad would better be described as a man of opportunity, a wise man who did what needed to be done to create the foundations for what has ultimately become the fastest growing religion of our modern world, Islam, and at the same time, bring about a union of the fierce tribes of Arabia like no man before him could ever have hoped to achieve."
Bob If you stop worrying about Iraq and help endorce "US Prisons Rape Elimination Act", At least you can do something good for your country. How deep can you be wrong at your present state? I Wonder.
Mahmoud,
If you had only gotten to me earlier!
I’m actually leaving at 5:00AM our time (I should really get to bed) to go to Washington DC to meet with guys at the Pentagon. If you’d told me about your proposed act earlier, maybe I would have had time to formulate something for you.
I’m going down because they are very excited about the PIGROAST non-lethal area denial weapons system I created and first discussed here a week or so back on one of the threads (sorry, I can’t remember which). They were really excited about it, and want me to pitch the idea to some generals around lunch-time.
The thing is, they want to call it a “non-lethal area recovery/denial” or nLARD, weapons system family.
I don’t know about you, but acronyms for military weapons systems are getting a bit our of hand. Isn’t PIGROAST/nLARD just a bit much to swallow?
If all goes well, I’ll be working on prototypes until the middle of next week, and you guys wont hear from me. Don’t get depressed Mahmoud, I’ll get back as soon as I can.
If I get a chance, I’ll try to suggest your "US Prisons Rape Elimination Act" idea, but I don’t think we really have a problem.
Seriously, concreate chafes. Who would want to rape a prison?
Ananda,
"Remember that not all religions are theistic, so the current events of our troubled world don't have to be explained away by fuzzy logic in my school of thought."
Good point! I hadn't thought of it that way...I love this website!
Foehammer,
After a thousand years, Mohammed might as well be St. Patrick, there's no evidence he existed, except the people he left behind, and then Joseph Campbell, Sir James Frazer, and Jung would argue that those same people have birthed him from their collective consciousness.
St. Patrick as the Irish Mohammed...yikes, I gotta quit drinking...or more often.
Actually, Finn Macoul would be the Irish Mohammed, St Patrick would be Steve Irwin without the snakes, er, crocs, er, whatever.
Hey Mahmoud How many times has brother Osama offered peace to me? None that I am aware of. There is a question that I must ask of brother Osama and all who follow him and believe that his cause is just. Can I trust you to allow me to live in peace? I dont care who or what you worship, but if I cannot trust you to allow me to live in peace then I am very sorry about this but you have to die. Do not assume that this is my fault, you are the one making the choice here.
STEPFORD WIVES opens this weekend.
I read in Variety the sequel already being planned is STEPFORD MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS. The only problem is that they can't find enough automatons to play all the parts.
Bob,
It seems you are so obsessed with your new weaponary systems in company of the rest of the ilk in pentagon that you completely forget this "Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003". It was in response to the common knowledge that american prisons are nothing less than Abu-Ghraib with the same "Bad Apples".
Ask Condi about it.
I can't believe you never heard of it, Bob.
Fixing america is better than developing new weapons....when you gonna get that?
Mahmoud~ when Islam fixes itself up to Current US standards, you can complain. But that might take another 1400 years...
*Still going to cottage. Fiancee's work schedule got changed =/ *
Phil:
Actually, I think it would be safer to say that there is much evidence that Muhammad existed, but no evidence that he was truly a Prophet of God.
And that could be the most important point of all.
Catherine and Joseph,
Can I just say that religion is the bain of humankind radical muslims being the worst of a bad bunch. Each to their own and if you (Catherine) want to believe in god then by all means do so, but don't make it part of your arguments against radical islamists or you are just stooping to their level, these arseholes are religious nuts and at the end of the day in my opinion all religion is just ancient fiction dramatized over the centuries by "prophets" and used by the ones in power allover the world to keep their populations under control E.g-This is how you must live your life or else the gods will be angry. In this day and age anyone who believes in any form of religion are absolutely mental look at all the wars it has caused over the millenia, and all over some of the most ridiculously far fetched fiction ever made. If some one told you that the events of a movie such as the matrix were true you wouldn't believe it so how can you believe there is any truth in the biblical stories .Like I said bleieve in whatever you want but don't turn your arguments with idiots such as mahmoud into a "my gods better than your god" speech it will get you knowhere.
And as for you Joseph I can tell you that I am 100% devout atheist but I can still see the insane, violence of the islamic world , why is it so hard for you to grasp that these bastards are beying for our blood, and if you don't become one of them you are their enemy ... simple as that, I know throughout the centuries Americans and Europeans may not have been angels but I like to think we've rectified most of our past mistakes, and now the free world that we know and love is under threat because of one extremely brain-washing religion and the babarians that have been brain-washed by it.