From the New York Times via The Straits Times, with thanks to Nicolei, who also noted that only among Muslims is the question of whether the killing of an innocent civilian is justified or not "reduced to the banality of a debate. In all other major religions, the answer is so clear that one does not even think of it."
In one unusual website posting, a Saudi man who said he had worked with the kidnap victim, and had even discussed Islam with him, went so far as to try to extend a kind of religiously inspired traditional tribal form of protection known as 'ijara' that would forbid killing Mr Johnson.'I hereby declare my protection and rescue for this man along with all his colleagues who work with us in the company, who ate with us and accepted our gifts of Islamic books which they promised to read,' wrote Mr Saad Al-Moemen.
He also described visits that Mr Johnson had made to his home and said the engineer had expressed distaste for United States foreign policy. ...
The fatwa was attacked by a number of readers who said all foreigners came to the kingdom with bad intentions, acting as the vanguard for the US military.
'Whoever gives them security is an apostate,' read one posting.
Others scoffed at the idea that an official visa somehow bestowed legitimacy on visitors.
'Who gave them the visa? It is the infidel agent regime,' read one posting in part.
'So I tell the mujahideen to keep killing them until the Arabian peninsula is cleared of the filth of the crusaders.'
Others suggested that the militants try to convert Westerners to Islam rather than killing them, because that way they would be spared from going to hell, and the image of the faith around the world would not be so tainted with blood.
One religious leader, identified as Abdel Rahman bin Saleh al-Mahmoud, said Prophet Muhammad's followers had commanded that all non-believers be expelled from the Arabian peninsula.
But it has never been clear, he wrote, whether that includes just the holy city of Mecca or some larger area. In addition, foreigners visited at the time of the Prophet, he noted, it was just the idea of permanent communities that was abhorrent.
You know, I once almost considered myself a pasifist. No more! Muhammed's death cult has almost single-handedly persuaded me otherwise. I seriously believe we should publicly announce that if there is ever a nuclear or large WMD Islamic terrorist attack in a Western city, we will respond by nuking Mecca and Medina. They seem to understand no other language. And since Islamists don't care about human lives, neither their own nor anybody else's, maybe this is the only way we could possibly deter them.
The comments the Saudis made about the killings represent a warped and evil-minded culture. It's too bad the only alternatives that country has are an already dysfunctional royal house and islamicist radicals.
Just remember guys:
AIDS in Saudi Arabia is rife. Since they cannot acknowledge the existance of AIDS, since to acknowledge the existance of AIDS, would be to acknowledge the existance of homosexuality and sex outside marriage, I have no doubt that AIDS in Islamic countries, is spreading like a wildfire.
Let AIDS finish them off.
How about this?
We get every Muslim out of the US and every western country on the face of the earth. Send them all back to their radical, terrorist 7th century countries where they belong. Anyway, i'm sick of seeing their women, wrapped head to toe in their garb, in my neigbhorhood, something similar to an invasion. They are coming out of the wordwork like roaches...and where are they all coming from, and why the radical dress?
Then we leave their horrific countries where their only monies and "economy" come from their lazy butts sitting on oil, and let them rot as they should. When every muslim is out of our countries, and our countries are finally free from their tyranny, we will leave theirs to rot as they should and will.
Kimme,
Believe me most of us on this site agree with you, and if one of us were in power then maybe it would happen but because of the state of denial Joe Public ,the government and the ridiculous PCness of the lefties something as brilliantly problem solving as exiling all muslims to an isolated desert or island will never happen . And by the time the rest of the world realise this is what's needed it'll already be too late. The cancer of islam will be fatal!!!
Kimme, that's a great idea. I wouldn't be against mining the borders, stop dealing with the global economy routine and putting Americans back to work and being selfsufficient like we used to be. Problem with that is self containment and letting the nutters rot only works if the rest of the world does the same thing, and that's not going to happen. Left on their own to spread their insanity, things will only get worse and become more of a threat to us. We gotta find a way to make Iraq work and support reforms in the "moderate" countries because people there are beginning to realize these nutcases will kill every muslim that doesn't think like them. Time for the world to put the pressure on.
I agree M, I think many of these so called "friendly nations" of these terroists are beggining to realize that these guys have flipped their friggin lids. I think the problem really lies in the fact as one person has already stated on this site, they are living in a vastly inferior ie 15 century state. They know nothing of the outside world, and therefore all think that we are the perpetrators against them, something akin to hitler's propoganda of ww2. while the rest of the world progressed from the crusades of christianity, and its forceful spread, somehow they got left behind, either thru their own desire or simply from isolationalism.
The West will neither nuke Mecca, nor we will let them die of AIDS, because we have a superior morality.
The reason that Muslim countries have such a huge population explosion now is a combination of high birth rates with Western medicine and technology that has cut infant mortality and expanded life spans.
Make it easier and less violent folks.
Just grind up and mush up ALL our left over pig guts and fat and continuously airial spray these killers. In their religion it stops them from going to heaven because they are defiled.
Dontcha just luv it chick aboom, chick aboom,boom boom.
MGM
AIDS vaccine available for the Saudi population. Hmmm. Imagine the consequences for the rest of us… an exploding population living on a pile of sand…
Could this be a reason for sending an "advanced guard" to claim lands for Islam at this time? I wonder.
The Koran is very clear about those that thwart or resist Islaml: "kill them, strike them at the neck…", in other words, beheading, a long-lived and often practiced "remedy" against infidels that few in the West "remembered" as we have not struggled against Islam for few hundred years. Islam remembers those ancient struggles and is ready to pick up where they left off.
This news, seem to be a thing for laughing but It´s true. But the Godness prevail.
Foxnews has announced that the body of Paul Johnson HAS YET TO BE RECOVERED!!!
So if the killers were found 'disposing' of Paul Johnson's body and then telling authorities the license plate number, where is he?
Rita Cosby was just grilling that snakehead alJuber about constant Saudi doublespeak and accusations of 'zionist complicity' and as usual, he gave his usual slimely lies.
Either we get Paul's body NOW or we demand Bush withdraw ALL US WORKERS from that litterbox!!!
From the article:
He also described visits that Mr Johnson had made to his home and said the engineer had expressed distaste for United States foreign policy.
Does anyone else read this and think "Anti-Zionist"? Or is it just me?
kj
Kimmie,
I agree with you, they are coming in and I guarantee most of them are doing it so they can kill us again just like the 9/11 terrorists. We can't know for certain that those are here to make an honest living and want their children to grow up in a land that is free. If they hate us so damn much, get the hell out of our country and go back to your sick world. Women have to be totally covered as that is their culture but living here in America they do have freedom to do what they wish, even if they do not want to be covered from head to toe. I feel badly for them, those who wish to have more and do more cannot because they follow Sharia law right here in the States. We do not know what goes on behind closed doors but I do have enough friends of all faiths that have told me, women are controlled, those who are lucky enough not to be are truly living in the land of the free.
Kimmi
I agree with you 100%.
I'm really sad to say that the real danger to civilisation is not from Jihadis but from the 'peaceful' muslims living in the West, whose population is expanding at an alarming rate.
Sooner or later, the West will have Bosnias, Kosovos, Kashmirs etc within it. There is no doubt whatever about this. The price that we will have to pay then, will be minute compared to the price that the Jihadis are exacting from us in anti-terrorism responses. That includes the increasing curtailments of freedoms that we take for granted and the inconvenience entailed in air travel.
The war we are waging in the ME is in the wrong place. The war is here, in the West. And it consists of undermining the liberal secular civilisation of the West. This war as presently constituted will lead to increasing severity of attacks and counter attacks, leading eventually to nuclear responeses. Hundreds of millions of people are going to die as a consequence. Even if we win such a gruesome war, we may have difficulty in coming to terms with the morality of it all. Consequently we may destroy our civilisation anyway.
As a humanist, I abhor deaths on any scale. It is far better that ALL Muslims live in dar al islam and get on with their love of death, and leave the rest to get on with the pursuit of happiness in this life.
So how to do this? Expulsion of Muslims would be considered ethnic cleansing and our civilisation could not stomach it. However an exchange of populations, 'our Muslims' for the horribly oppressed and persecuted Christians in Muslim nations, is one way out. Exchange of populations is not ethnic cleansing and has been implemented several times in the last century when cultures are unable to coexist in peace.
Two birds with one stone. We remove the threat from the enemy within and also save the Christian community in Muslim nations from extinction.
"The West will neither nuke Mecca, nor we will let them die of AIDS, because we have a superior morality."
Susan, I was thinking in terms of deterrence. The Soviets could be deterred in different ways. It's much harder with Islamists. If we were to use nukes one day, Mecca would be quite high on the list.
We cant trust them at all, they are all in bed together. Now al qaeda says hes dead, I dont beleive it... This smells rotten, Kinda like all muslums.. They are told by there moon god (allah) and the prophet who never prophesied ( moHAMmed )To lie and cheat us out are money... They wouldnt know the truth if it bite them in the ass.
I BELIEVE IN GOD AND JESUS AND I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF WHAT IS HAPPENING SIMPLY HAS TO BE IN ORDER FOR WHAT WAS WITNESSED THAT WOULD HAPPEN IN END TIMES TO HAPPEN. I THINK WE ALL NEED TO CONCENTRATE ON OUR SPIRITUAL SALVATION AND PRAY TO GOD FOR CHANGE IN THE WORLD. HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN STOP IT.
The sad aspect of all of this is that it will force us in the west to ask a very difficult question:
Are we (humanity) better off without these folks?
It was possible to deter and contain communism for the most part, and it has (also for the most part) withered and died. The few places it is going strong are aching for change, and the most populous country on the planet is rapidly becoming a capitalistic (socialist society).
The problem is that it is not possible to deter and contain islamism. Not the religion, but the islamo-facists.
This means that we (civilized society) have to make a decision about how long we are willing to put up with these groups. Once we decide to do something (not a war on terror, but a de-wahabification and a de-islamofascism-ification), how much and how far are we willing to go?
Our enemy has made it clear that they are willing to give their lives for the cause. All of their lives.
We have to decide whether or not we will accept their rule, or if we need to remove them in order to preserve civilization.
I suspect eventually we will get to the latter question, and with great sadness, we will have to start to move against them. Sadness as we will have to compromise some of our deepest held beliefs to deal with the threat.
And that is the point after all. They represent a threat. A clear, present, and increasing danger to the civilized world. Not monetary lossage, but specifically loss of life, rights, freedom, and everything else we hold dear.
At some point, this discussion will start. The jihadis want a war.
They are likely going to get one. Though I don't think they are going to like the outcome. Simply put, they crossed numerous lines and boldly stated "them or us". Fine. Its us.
In the “War on Terror”, the Islamo-fascists strive to escalate the conflict in all of its theatres and to multiply the number of such arenas, causing the USA’s “imperial over-extension”; they’re conditioning their next two or three generations, at least, into continuing their mad campaign.
In a process of painful attrition against the West, the Jihadis seek to expand, from controlling multiple enclaves and districts throughout the dar el-Islam to taking over provinces, countries and regions there, then non-Moslem countries, regions and continents, conquering the planet.
“Sheikh” Osama bin-Laden views two specific places as excellent staging-posts for further aggression: Saudi Arabia, with its oil and riches, and Pakistan, with its approximately fifty, nuclear-tipped missiles. He badly desires to exert his ascendancy over both of these (plus anywhere else on Earth that his gangs can get into), knowing that he has tremendous popularity in each.
Saluting their cancellation of terrorist Abdul-Aziz el-Muqrin yesterday, blame for the bungling of Saudi Arabia’s “Keystone Kops” in the recent upsurges of violence and terrorism in the Kingdom is mainly due to old, institutional problems, but some can be laid to the feet of the Police and Security Forces being grievously infiltrated by agents and sympathizers of el-Qaeda.
Likewise, despite the purge carried out by Pakistan’s President, General Musharaf, a part of his nation’s notorious Inter Services Intelligence directorate remains susceptible to the “inspiration” of militant Islamism, as reflected in the sudden spate of “technical and tactical difficulties” which were repeatedly suffered during the Pak Army’s incursions into South Waziristan lately and the persistence of the Taleban in Afghanistan and of the “holy warriors” in Kashmir.
Mr Musharaf’s demise is liable to be superlatively grisly, but the image of the (foreign-crewed) fleets of Royal jumbos, standing by to fly the House of Saud out when the Revolution arrives, is probably not so far from the truth - though, for the moment, they’re feeling secure, if not totally unruffled; they’re profiting most handsomely indeed from the increase in oil-prices lately.
More satisfying, however, would be the knowledge that the Americans have a contingency-plan, in the event of the Saud’s ouster, to keep the oil-bearing province of Hasa out of the hands of the Jihadis: to do so would be a nett gain for the West and would deprive the enemy of a major asset. In addition to the stuff itself, the oil from Hasa fuels immense fresh water distilleries sited there, which produce the great bulk of Saudi Arabia’s potable water….
As well - should it become necessary - it’d be good to be immediately ready to fully neutralize Pakistan’s nukes, to have every one of their launching-silos and the spectrum of their production-facilities zeroed into the target-sights of the Pentagon, to be destroyed an instant prior to the Islamo-fascist fanatics getting their hooks on them.
I totally agree with Ali on the first post of this thread. We need to announce that any dirty bomb attack will result in overwhelming retaliation of the most severe kind. Let them read into what this means. But, yes , it means a nuclear counterstrike, followed by invasion and usurping of Saudi Oil.
Ali Dashti,
Well... to solve this "class of civilazation" problem, why don't we infidel let them do what they wants?
I love the idea of ressurrecting the Islamic Caliphate by the islamic militans . The idea that all Islamic nations must united on the Black Banner of Islam thrills me. why don't the millitan also do these steps:
1.Let Osama bin laden, his cohort and any moslem who shared the same ideology of expansion be the ruler & minion to this new empire.
2. Let them declare an open war to all the infidels on earth.
3. Let them assemble large amount of Army or volunters who willing to die in this holy war.
4. Let Mecca be their Capital.
5. All the moslem who live in the infidel lands return to their Islamic safehaven.
The outcome of this war would be very predictable, isn't it? Only this time we must do like what the allied nations had done in the post world war II Germany/Japan.
1. Banned the ideology of nazism/militerism (islam)
2.Re-educated them. Let re-wire their brain from the poison of Islam.
I think this is the only solution. Although I'm very skeptical knowning the cowardinece of the Islamic militants.
"I have never advocated war except as a means of peace."
- Ulysses S. Grant