Back in the days of the Cold War, the doctrine of "Mutually Assured Destruction" was purported to have kept both sides from launching a nuclear attack on the other. But the problem with the "Islamic Bomb" is that those who will wish to launch it will not be given pause by the prospect of their own destruction: they will be martyrs for Allah, enjoying the sensual bounties of Paradise. From Al-Bawaba, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:
Intelligence Chief Major-General Aharon Ze'evi-Farkash said the Iranian-backed resistance movement had a few dozen rockets "apparently" with a range of 115 kilometers and perhaps as great as 200 kilometers....Farkash's comments were published as a spokesman for Iran's Revolutionary Guards was quoted as saying the Islamic Republic will wipe Israel "off the face of the earth" if it dared to attack the its nuclear facilities.
"The United States is showing off by threatening to use its wild dog, Israel," the public relations head of the Revolutionary Guards, Commander Seyed Masood Jazayeri, was quoted as saying by the Iranian student news agency ISNA.
"They will not hesitate to strike Iran if they are capable of it. However, their threats to attack Irans nuclear facilities cannot be realised. They are aware Tehran's reaction will be so harsh that Israel will be wiped off the face of the earth and US interests will be easily damaged," he warned.
Please visit http://forums.delphiforums.com/western1
Iran needs to be dealt with now, it's a bigger threat than Iraq ever was, their threats to use nukes aren't being taken serious enough. How in hell was Iran ever allowed to get this powerful?
And whats America's wild dog Israel supposed to mean. Are they implying that Israel is nothing more than a military offshoot of America, that doesn't have to answer to the american public or government for its actions ( when I say public I mean the "islam is a religion of peace " crowd, that just won't let the US take care of business and turn on them, criticize and undermine them when they do). Israel is a respectable force that does things of it's own accord and if they feel threatened by Iran then they are perfectly entitled to strike, lets see if the iranians fight as tough as they talk.
And if they nuke Israel, then lets see just how much they enjoy being martyrs, in fact why not strike firs, it's gonna happen anyway, so why wait until the entire population of Israel has been vanquished before they get a taste of western nuclear power.
Voltaire, I've just registered on that forum you sent the link for and when I tried to login it said my password wasn't valid. I've checked my emails and I've not yet received a confirmation mail from the human rights forum.
It seems like a great idea for a forum though , nice one, I hope to be commenting there soon.
Usual 'foaming at the mouth' rhetoric from Mad Mullahs.Islamic clerics are great on encouraging
suicide bombings but reluctant to set an example
themselves. Funny, that...I mean you would think Mullahs will be on the gallop for Paradise and promised virgins.Maybe they're having such a great time
living in luxurious mansions, with lots of Iranian
virgins etc, they're a tad reluctant to be 'holy
martyrs'?Who knows, they may suspect the truth of their barbaric ,stone worshipping Cult.That it is ONE HUGE LIE!
Voltaire,
Please help me I can't login I keep getting the "your password/username combination is not valid" , I have not received an email to confirm my initiation, and I have even tried clicking on "forgot password" and still I've had no email sent with a new one. It's really pissing me off now , Waaaah, I Wanna Comment, WAAAAAH!!! HELP ME VOLTAIRE!!!
Beloved British friends:
You owe it to yourselves to pop over to Dhimmi Watch and check out Reza's coment on the July 26 "Archbishop of Canterbury ..." thread. Everyone is entitled to a good fit of hilarious laughter at least once a day!
Time will tell what Israel will do and what the reaction will be...I have faith in the Israeli’s judgment. They have NEVER spoken of committing genocide against all Muslims, unlike the Muslims wishing to rid the earth of the Jews!
All free nations should object to Iran possessing nuclear weapons...along with Pakistan and India and North Korea!
As the only non-muslim state in the Middle East, Israel is the only state in the region that the entire non-muslim world can trust. If there was a Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Bahai, Tao, Jain, or Zoroastrian state in the region, Israel wouldn't be the only game in town. Israel is the only beachhead of sanity in a region wracked by irrational allegiance to superstitious madmen, trapped in the 7th century, who are bent upon the destruction of the world, including themselves.
I think susan is being a bit unfair lumping India in with the nutty regimes in Iran and North Korea. India is the largest democracy in the world and should have a seat on the UN Security council instead of France. India has a considerable bone to pick with the muslim fanatics and in the long run they will be a major ally against the Islamofacists. They have nukes and will use them in the event that Pakistan becomes an religious dictatorship.
Buck,
I did not intend to offend India or Indians. The fact is Pakistan would not have needed Nuclear weapons except that India has them.
None of those countries are at a point to need protection from external sources and if they would get sane and concentrate on their Humanitarian needs they would not have the time or cash to play with Nukes!
I will see India as a Modern, Civilized Country when I do not see the Massive Human Suffering being ignored there! Criminy! Get running water and indoor toilets BEFORE you get NUKES!
SusanC,
I strongly agree with Buck, India are a great friend of the west and one day we will need their vast, populous nation in the fight against jihad. They have well-documented beef with Pakistan over the Kashmir and are certainly no allies of islam, in fact they are possibly it's greatest enemy next to the US the UK and Israel. And if they did nuke anyone it would be Pakistan, I just wish they'd do it first, because eventually we're going to have to fight them.
The problem I see with dealing with Iran is that the American elections are being a real distration.
The Iranian mullahs know perfectly that, and perhaps Israel will need to do a preemptive attack like the one once did against the Osirak reactor in Iraq. Before November, I mean.
After november, as a non-dhimmi European, I can't imagine a victory of Mr. Kerry.
Rikki
Either India OR Pakistan needs Nukes to solve the Kashmir Problem! My God has the world gone totally crazy. I am well aware that India is an Ally...An Ally with Huge and difficult INTERNAL Troubles!
India is also an Ally that is being helped dramatically with Jobs...Technology and Financial/social/medical AID from the WEST.
And Again I state ANY country that has not figured out how to provide their citizens with the basics of human sanitation, has no business playing with Nukes!
I can not imagine how you read that I was attacking India! India has never threatened the West HOWEVER, India likewise has no need to possess nuclear weapons! I am simply pointing out the ignorance of the Western World that sits by and allows these countries to arm themselves with Nuclear weapons!Pakistans "justification" for having Nuclear weapons IS India having them.
Rikki I am sure Buck is flattered at your agreement, but if you read my posts you might be surprised to see I did not attack India...It was included in a list of countries In or near the Middle East and Asia that SHOULD NOT Have Nuclear Weapons.
That is my opinion and as far as I can see I am allowed to voice my opinions on this forum...
SusanC,
Okay, point taken, I wasn't having a dig.
Indians are Hindu based, and they are no friend of Islob.....They are a great ally, but they need to become a bit meaner. I have a Hindu friend, and they are quite passive. However, the Muslims would be wise not to keep pissing them off.
India is not our enemy, Saudi Arabia is.
India is also an Ally that is being helped dramatically with Jobs...Technology and Financial/social/medical AID from the WEST.
And Again I state ANY country that has not figured out how to provide their citizens with the basics of human sanitation, has no business playing with Nukes!
That is my opinion and as far as I can see I am allowed to voice my opinions on this forum...
Posted by: Susanc at July 27, 2004 10:31 AM
You go !!! Lets look at this in real time!!!
Love people who have wit!!
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Wisdom ,Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen
PS
And the Bullets!!
The title says that "Hizbullah rockets threaten Tel Aviv." Yes, but also Jerusalem, which is the capital of Israel and which, in any conflagration in which Iran would attempt to "wipe Israel off the map" would surely be included. Perhaps the real title, to bring home at least to the West, what is at stake, would be "rockets threaten Jerusalem." This is not to say that lives in Tel Aviv are any less important, just to emphasise that the attacks on Israel threaten to destroy what is the Holy Land, and no Muslim army would hesitate to level every Christian site and church in that Holy Land, in order to achieve victory in the Jihad against the Infidel state of Israel.
There are still many who allow themselves to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and none to be adduced i nsupport, that the Arabs really are interested in, and can be mollified by, a "Palestinian" state. But that is not the problem. Anyone who understands Islam knows that Israel, whatever its size, as an Infidel polity cannot be permitted to exist. Any further reduction in Israel's size will be pocketed -- not gratefully, but as if it is the Arab Muslims' due -- and then they will proceed, sooner or later, from there.
The only thing which can allow an Arab leader, or an Arab Muslim country, not to participate in an open attack on Israel (demographic conquest of the Jewish state can proceed apace, just as it is proceeding in many parts of Western Europe, virtually unrecognized and uncomprehended, and therefore unopposed) is if Israel is not only overwhelmingly more powerful -- but is clearly, and obviously, understood to be such. There can be no grounds for miscalculation. Then the doctriine of Darura, or necessity, can be invoked even by the Arabs themselves, to explain their failure to participate in violent Jihad. And Muslim fatalism can also play a role: if Allah had wanted the Muslims to conquer Israel, it would not have permitted Israel to acquire such weaponry as it now possesses. Clearly, Allah does not yet wish for the Arabs to attack. Perhaps, with all this enthusiastic and naive talk about an Islamic "reformation," one might insist that the doctrine that requires attacks to spread Islam within the Infidel states can somehow be tamped down. Very unlikely, but as Fats Waller rightly noted -- One never knows, do one?
indeed, a "reformation" in islam does not seem to be on the table. now that afghanistan and iraq are on the path to being open societies, it does appear that while hesitantly grappling with western ideas of secular democracy, there is an underlying loyalty in their societies that keep the people at large in a more or less solidarity state with other muslims. "reformation" it seems will happen here and there on an individual basis, but more and more i'm beginning to believe that this has to do with rejecting islam as opposed to modifying it.
SusanC, shut the hell up about India. I suspect that you don't know squat about India.
According to the treaty of Partition, which was signed by all sides (including the Muslims) Kashmir was to remain independent, join with India, or join with Pakistan. And it was to do so at the Prince/King of Kashmir's discretion. Period. No popular vote; no split down the middle. In less than a year, Pakistan invaded Kashmir. The King acceded to India, and every since, fools have called it "disputed" territory, or worse, "Indian Occupied."
The religiously-insane jihadis of Kashmir/Pakistan are pulling the same crap on India as their brethren in "palestine."
If Pakistan had beaten India to the bomb, do you think they would have hesitated to use it? India HAD to get nukes for defensive reasons. Pakistan got nukes for the same reason Iran is getting them: to kill infidels. The only thing stopping an all-out nuke war between Pakistan and India is the somewhat-secular General Musharaf. But eventually he will be assassinated, or or get so old and infirm that he or someone will have to appoint a replacement. And maybe, just maybe, someone may determine that the red-eyed religiously insane Pakistanis need "democracy and freedom" and force Musharaf to allow elections. And like any Muslim "democracy," they will vote in a bunch of Mullahs that put the z in crazy.
And even now, just because a military man is in charge doesn't mean that he won't cowtow to the crazy-ass Mullahs (see Turkey.) You've never heard of Pakistan's General Khan, but you should educate yourself about him and what he did to India/Bangladesh... then you wouldn't be so quick to condemn India for developing nukes.
And another thing: the guy who owns the "Ethan Allen" chain of furniture stores... he is a Kashmiri Muslim who's hobby is spreading lies and propaganda about India/Kashmir. He hides behind a business named after a great American patriot, but is nothing but a cowardly jihadi/jihadi apologist... and he is not getting one penny from me, ever.
kj,
Re: The Treaty of Partition, and the subsequent "Troubles" in Kashmir--well said.
Susanc,
It is a very useful rule of thumb to remember that 1) treaties made with the Infidel are not binding on Muslims, and 2) the primary goal of Islam (the translation of "Islam" is "Submission") is to control the entire globe, including Kashmir, by whatever means necessary.
By remembering these two points, many an apparently complicated argument can be clarified very quickly. Together, these points, especially the second, often function as "Occam's Razor," and as such, are very helpful.
One thing one can say about Islam is that it is very open, very "up front" about what it wants, and is not at all shy about telling the rest of the world how it intends to get what it wants.
P.S.
CGW and Sheik Canuck (swt), I've been gone a while and am just beginning to catch up. Thank you for your comments about the site. Soon coming: The role of education as problem and solution.
Condolences and lamentations today for the 286 million jews and 2 temples lost.
Fundamentalist Iran’s loyal surrogate in southern Lebanon, on the northern borders of the “Small Satan”, Israel, is Hezbollah, to whom both it and fascist Syria have been supplying short- and medium-range missiles for years, amounting to many THOUSANDS stacked up in its armoury nowadays. These stocks are attended by units of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (“Pasdaran”).
This story relates to recent, increasing fears that Iran and Syria, of late, have been further giving CHEMICAL &/or BIOLOGICAL warheads, from each of their extensive non-conventional weapons arsenals, to Hezbollah. Moreover, though, there’s been some consideration around of Hezbollah endeavouring to smuggle Syrian-made/modified bio-chem payloads to the PA/PLO-Hamas-Jihad Islami in “Palestine”, for the Arabs to then fit onto their store of home-made, short-range rockets.
If this is indeed the case, then these transfers of WMDs are the Iranian Grand Council of Islamic Guidance’s bid at dissuading Israel (and the US) from smiting Iran’s rapidly-burgeoning nuclear armaments plants, prior to delivery of their lethal dividends into the waiting Ayatollahs’ hands.
It’s saying that if Israel strikes Iran’s atomic weapons-facilities - the PRIMARY target for whose products is itself Israel - then the Jewish State would reflexively be prey to assault from whatever Iran itself would mount (depending on its state following hits by these putative Israeli air-raids), from Syria (including all the terrorist organizations centred there), from Lebanon (Hezbollah) and from the “Palestinians” in the disputed territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. What’s more, they’d all be launching chemical &/or biological agents against Israel then, TOGETHER.
Conservative estimates are that Tehran’s first nuke will be assembled in 12 months, that it’ll subsequently be able to construct up to three devices per annum, initially, stepping up to six as the industry gains concrete procedural experience - and nine or ten a year, once the new Russian-installed reactors come on stream, due early in 2006, to provide the fissile material to build as many A-bombs as the Grand Council should desire - reportedly possessing a minor, but high-grade, domestic source of uranium ore inside Iran.
How many Bombs, at minimum, would Iran require in order to field a bare “nuclear war-fighting ability”? At least half-a-dozen to cover Israel’s utmost strategic sites, double or treble that for saturation - if Iran sticks to its first-strike plan, as voiced by the President of the Council in 2002.
Then, having set the precedent for nuclear surprise-attacks, it’d possibly be comforting for the Iranians to have a reserve of atom-bombs on alert, for Iran to be equipped to deter its “nuclear neighbours”, Pakistan, India, China, Russia, (NATO in Turkey), plus, cardinally, America, in Afghanistan and Iraq, to Iran’s east and its west, with fleets in the Persian Gulf, in the south, and influence - and a USAF-base - in Uzbekistan, not far to the north (though not contiguous to Iran, formally needing over-flight authority from Turkmenistan, largely an Iranian client).
With Pakistan, India, Russia and China, Tehran enjoys cordial ties and lucrative trade, but with Washington, relations are tense…. Hence, if - prematurely - Iran does destroy Israel in its sneak-offensive scheme, but then finds itself CLEAN OUT of nukes, it risks lacking any check to the likely US counter-coups to its brazen onslaught, it’d be left largely vulnerable.
It adds up to a requirement for Iran of no less than twenty, nearer to twenty-five, preferably thirty or thirty-five, to make it confident of fulfilling its plot. Coldly, that means that between five and ten years from today, either the Theocracy falls or else an appalling conflagration will - almost inevitably - shortly consume the region. Everybody - specially the Iranian people - will be LOTS happier if the Ayatollahs go; it’s incumbent upon the West to see to it that they do so, IN TIME.
Israel, menaced by Iran and its tight strategic collaboration with hostile Syria, Hezbollah and the “Palestinians” - should it be compelled to pre-empt Tehran’s genocidal scheme - will have to devastate not Iran’s nuclear establishment alone, but SIMULTANEOUSLY all the threatening areas of Lebanon and Syria as well, along with faring fresh, surgical sorties into “Palestine”, a sizeable military undertaking, tantamount to major operations of War.
Notwithstanding, why can’t the Grand Council grasp the simple idea that if Israel’s ever made the victim of Tehran’s tactics, despite mortal blows to the Jewish State, before it expires, the chances are Excellent that, within seconds, it’ll AUTOMATICALLY fire back up to 200 Israeli missiles, winging Iran’s way, flattening it in flames from one end to the other, in minutes? Any US nukes to be shot off at Iran after that barrage would be merely “shaking the rubble”.
Since deterrence of the Cold War type (“M.A.D.” = “Mutual Assured Destruction”) is not liable to work with the forces of Jihad, who “Love Death”; a different - even less subtle - approach must be hazarded: the teaching of consistent, unambiguous OBJECT LESSONS to transgressors, using the most unmistakable of terms, no more futile “hearts & minds” guff.
Conceivably, something as direct as a US thermo-nuclear device WILL be called for, to address particular recalcitrants, at some stage or another during this epochal, planetary conflict; it’s vital that no arrow be excluded from the West’s quiver. To exempt nukes from a role - where apt - on account of their application allegedly being worse than losing the “War on Terror” would definitely be a tragic piece of folly, because NOTHING could be worse than living on an Earth that’s permanently, unrelievedly enveloped in a blighted, Islamist Dark Age....
Incidentally, India's FIRST nuclear test was way back in 1974, though it's doubtful if the device detonated then was deliverable by even a heavy bomber aircraft, let alone tipping a missile.
Several days ago, an official Spokesman for the new Indian Government was effusive in support of India's re-embrace of "the Arab Cause", as India bids to re-immerse itself in the "Non Aligned Movement" (the Arab League-Organization of Islamic Conferences' accessory-in-chief in the UN and a host of other international forums), from which it had grown somewhat distant under its previous (non-Congress, more pro-Western) Administration.
Susan,
To be charitable, I attribute your clubbing of INDIA with North Korea et al to ignorance and not to arrogance or malice. And your assertion that Pakistan would not have gone Nuclear but for INDIA, is attributable to foolishness, apart from ignorance. This second is in the same category as those who claim that if Israel is abandoned, everything will be hunky dory in the Middle East.
The liberation of Bangladesh by INDIA is one of the greatest humanitarian endeavors of the modern world. And what does US (Kissinger and Nixon) do? Send the 7th fleet to the Indian Ocean. To protect the victim? Nope. To intimidate the rescuer.
The fact that Bangladesh is fast degenerating into theocracy should have given the Americans something to think about the democracy experiment in IRAQ.
But then, nobody can accuse the typical American of knowing history.
covilkar