Palestinian Gunmen Kidnap French Civilians in Gaza

What security!Is this some kind of sick joke? And U N wants Israel to take down their wall...

I hear you Morgane, Palestinian security is an oxymoron. Emphasis on moron-ic.

Then they realized these are there sugar daddys.

When can we look forward to the french springing into action on this one?

From where can the French retreat like the Spanish and Philippinos? Perhaps they can cede Occitan or some other departement.

The French Left will simply blame the Israelis if something happens to those hostages--and go on touting thuggery as a liberation struggle. Still, I'm curious to know what a bunch of Westerners were doing in the Gaza strip.

Probably selling them some rocket launchers. They'll let them go when they realize their mistake. After all, the French are their good buddies, aren't they?

Readers should note that some of what the kidnappers demanded was reform in the Palestinian Authority. There were also a kidnapping of an arafat-appointed head of security services, I believe the name was Jabali, who has now been forced to resign. Two security heads and Qurai (the Prime Minister) submitted their resignation, though Arafat refuses to accept the resignations. Hard to venture a guess on what all this means..

It looks like “Palestine”’s getting ever closer to the outbreak of its inevitable civil war.

It won’t be like the American civil war in the mid-19th Century or the English in the 17th or the Spanish in the 20th, where there were just two geographical or ideological sides. In “Palestine”, it’ll be much more like the horrific chaos of Lebanon, from the 1970s into the ‘90s. In that crucible, everybody’s effectively the mortal enemy of everyone else, and the only law is that of the jungle.

The imminent “Palestinian” fratricide would be far less a civil war than a synchronous, feudal, communitarian, political, sectarian and terrorist bloodbath, a protracted, pervasive period of extreme anarchy, erupting within a fractious entity whose basic ethos is primarily and fundamentally rooted in violence and fanaticism, virtually guaranteeing mayhem along these lines.

It’d be highly facile to view this approaching strife as a fight between the “radicals” of the PLO-Hamas-Jihad Islami, etc, and any “Palestinian moderates”. Instead, before predictably consuming all of “Palestine”, it’ll commence as a power-struggle among the homicidal bosses of the mess of competing Arab terror-groups and armed factions and mafias in Gaza and the West Bank.

These cruel men are cynical, professional, politico/paramilitary/criminal careerists, opportunists and psychos, whose individual militias are right now keenly jostling to best position themselves for a brutal combat - which they’re all well aware will be compulsory for one or other of them to take over in “Palestine” - once the cracked veneer of the Palestine Authority finally disintegrates.

Putatively, after that watershed, they’ll be obliged to range the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as rivalling warlords, vying for superiority, until one can emerge to assume Arafat’s ghastly mantle - plus the prize, his “nice little earner” of the “Palestinian Revolution”; they’re poising for the eventuality, and their chance in it.

They’ve definitely heard, about a week ago, the Report to the Security Council of the Norwegian UN peace-envoy, Terje Roed-Larsen, He’s been the “Palestinians”’ warm habibi for years and a solicitous friend of their “President”, Yasir Arafat, but - very surprisingly indeed - he alarmingly CHIDED Arafat, personally, blaming him in it for the collapsing conditions of “Palestine”.

Mr Larsen’s speech has driven the various gangs to bring forward their schedules, should the date of Arafat’s demise arrive a bit “early”, his eclipse accelerated by the UN distancing itself somewhat from him - though NOT from his murderous “cause”. (The UN’s largest single voting-bloc, its “automatic majority”, the Arab League-dominated Organization of Islamic Conferences, with the Non-Aligned Movement - and some in the EU - will never abide going to that length!)

Meanwhile, Arafat’s striving to restore his image, again, putting himself up, anew, not as “Mr Duplicity” but as “Mr Indispensable”, claiming that he - alone - can control “Palestine”. Already he’s blocked the Egyptians and Jordanians from co-operating with Israel in its disengagement-plan for the disputed territories, ahead of making his next bid for OPEN supremacy there.

He’s kicked off by promulgating a fresh volume of security arrangements, meant to persuade the UN and EU that HE, exclusively, is the imperative - missing - factor for any talks to proceed, and that HE, solely, can stop any looming, “Palestinian” civil war. However, Arafat’s return to the stage MUST NOT be tolerated - to the contrary, the sooner he’s gone for good, the better.

Hugh,
"It looks like “Palestine”’s getting ever closer to the outbreak of its inevitable civil war"
One thing that civil war isnt, is inevitable. Earlier this year, civil war in iraq seemed inevitable, with the killing of the highest shia authority, and the targeted killings of hundreds of kurds, the place was a mess, but what everyone was wrong on, was that there was no civil war, as predicted. To call it ineveitable is exageration to its limits. Ill explain further on in the post.

"It won’t be like the American civil war in the mid-19th Century or the English in the 17th or the Spanish in the 20th, where there were just two geographical or ideological sides. In “Palestine”, it’ll be much more like the horrific chaos of Lebanon, from the 1970s into the ‘90s. In that crucible, everybody’s effectively the mortal enemy of everyone else, and the only law is that of the jungle."
Lebanon has always been a troubled region because of its ethnic cocktail. With several ethnic groups (Armenians, arabs etc...) and a huge number of different islamic and christian sects (Sunni, shia, durzi, Maronite, greek orthadox, RC etc...), Lebanon also saw the large plo grouping in their country, and later on, the invasion by israel. This is clearly a different scenarion than palestine, of whom 99% is muslim (vastly sunni), of whom saw no grouping of forigners in their land (appart from the 30 year old occupation by the israelies). The palestineans are far more attached to one another, they share everything in common. The fight is against corruption at all levels in the "Sulta" (Palestinean authority).

"The imminent “Palestinian” fratricide would be far less a civil war than a synchronous, feudal, communitarian, political, sectarian and terrorist bloodbath, a protracted, pervasive period of extreme anarchy, erupting within a fractious entity whose basic ethos is primarily and fundamentally rooted in violence and fanaticism, virtually guaranteeing mayhem along these lines."
There isnt the slightest bit of evidence that would suggest anything you claim. I am trying to figure out the reason you post the rehtoric you do.
With regard to "primarily and fundemantaly rooted in violence and fanaticism" i can think of no nation that lives to that record better than the USA. Its 200 years old, and has been through 10 major wars. Its killed 14 million people in the past 5 decades, bombed 1 in every 11 countries, occupied many more, sanction far far more, gassed more, and the only nation to date to use Neuclear weapons on a civilian population. One of the very few nations where the number of guns outnumber the people 3-1, where 12000 or so die a year in gun related crime (mostly due to family break ups). A country whos first option is the bullet, and the last diplomacy. Tell me, how many guns do you have at home? What about you robert? I have none, had none, will never have any, though i can confidantly say i can get one, two, or maybe an entire truck full.

"These cruel men are cynical, professional, politico/paramilitary/criminal careerists, opportunists and psychos, whose individual militias are right now keenly jostling to best position themselves for a brutal combat - which they’re all well aware will be compulsory for one or other of them to take over in “Palestine” - once the cracked veneer of the Palestine Authority finally disintegrates."
What on earth are you bablling on about. No organisation wants to presume control of the gaza strip. The kidnappings, though perhaps the stuipedest thing these men could do, were aimed soley at presurizing the sulta for reform. To earth out corruption, yet you act in the exact manner you attributed to the militas. You took this opportunity, and manipulated it suit your purpose.

"Putatively, after that watershed, they’ll be obliged to range the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as rivalling warlords, vying for superiority, until one can emerge to assume Arafat’s ghastly mantle - plus the prize, his “nice little earner” of the “Palestinian Revolution”; they’re poising for the eventuality, and their chance in it"
Actually their poised to remain two seperate states due to the fact that "israeli land" runs between them. Arafat is likely to dissapear sooner or later, as proper elections take place.

"They’ve definitely heard, about a week ago, the Report to the Security Council of the Norwegian UN peace-envoy, Terje Roed-Larsen, He’s been the “Palestinians”’ warm habibi for years and a solicitous friend of their “President”, Yasir Arafat, but - very surprisingly indeed - he alarmingly CHIDED Arafat, personally, blaming him in it for the collapsing conditions of “Palestine”"
Ah, thats where hamas and others would like to fix things up, and the palestinean people in general.

"He’s kicked off by promulgating a fresh volume of security arrangements, meant to persuade the UN and EU that HE, exclusively, is the imperative - missing - factor for any talks to proceed, and that HE, solely, can stop any looming, “Palestinian” civil war. However, Arafat’s return to the stage MUST NOT be tolerated - to the contrary, the sooner he’s gone for good, the better."
Now, i despise, and hate the man, but he was elected. Somthing you seem to have little concern for, yet you constanly whine about the christian powition in the islamic world, and so one. And how we dont have democracies, how there is no equality, yet you in particular have shown no repect for the fact he is elected democratically. Just like when you heard about women electrates in a gulf arab state, instead of chearing the action, you showed dissatisfaction that now the women two were getting a piece of it all, you hypocrite.

Ive prooven time and time again i can make you fall to your knees, incapable of replying. Oh how many time youve left the joy of debate victory by declaring "i dont have to reply to this insane stuff!" (ironically in the "we must be allowed to critisize islam" post, everything i posted was facts and figures derived from the cia fact book, and other american sources, not one arab source).
And what about the earlier posts in may, every single time, without exception, you could not produce a plausabile counter argument. It had to reach to the point where i would beg you reply, try everything to get you to reply, i got none then, but i look forward to getting one, which i highly doubt so.

Also, you may want to actually live in palestine, talk with the people, study the fractions, before you make a fool of yourself. Im not going to let anything you say pass me by without documenting it.

Regards
Ahmad

Ahmad
Are you living in Palestine? If not how would you
know better than the propaganda put out by Al Jazeera & co.The Palestinians are the tool of their neighbours who can never get over the humiliation of being defeated TWICE by Israel that
tiny little state. As the Palestinians[or their mouthpiece] have declared many times; their intention is to wipe out Israel, the Jewish state will NOT be allowed to exist.What is lacking is any commonsense in this. Any SANE Palestinian Leader would have done a deal for SOME land,taken it,established themselves and tried to get a thriving economy going...Then, in a stronger position they would have negotiated for more land
back. Israel has got an economy going and a modern
headset into 2004 whilst Palestinians give every
indication of living in a feudal society governed
by guns,bombings,lawlessness, everything in fact that discourages investment and tourists. If only
these stupid,chauvinistic,gun toting men would actually sit down and THINK RATIONALLY instead of sending another suicide bomber to Israel, Palestine's problems COULD be solved.

Ahmad:

Make an emergency appointment with your optometrist - I’m not “Hugh”, but “HGII”, formerly “HG”, before the recent technical difficulties. Granted, it could look a bit close: I might change it back, or to something different, or I may not. I’m much flattered that you find my writing as articulate as “Hugh”’s; as well as pleased that you deem it worth your scan. By the way, I don’t live in America and I don’t own any guns or slaves.

Your main claim is that the “Palestinian” entity’s not terminally fractured, that it’s adequately cohesive and can weather the collapse of the Palestine Authority and Arafat without a civil war - in spite of the endemic crime and mounting, internal and chaos in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, in the news, pointing diametrically in the opposite direction. - Time will tell on that one.

But next, indeed, you openly recommend that the uplifting of the “Palestinians” lies optimally in the hands of HAMAS! I read that through twice, but then no further.

On the strength of that recommendation alone of yours, I must take it that you are against the existence of the State of Israel and possibly even subscribe to the totalitarian dogma of Hamas’ principal, the Moslem Brotherhood, that “Islam is the Answer to Everything”, that you support Islamo-fascism in the “War on Terror”. If so, there’s nothing more to discuss.

Dear Morgane,
"Are you living in Palestine?"
No, not at the current moment i am not. However, I am palestinean, and have lived there quite a bit but cannot live there continually as Israeli authorities do not permit so. I have a british nationality, not a palestinean nationality.
"If not how would you
know better than the propaganda put out by Al Jazeera & co.The Palestinians are the tool of their neighbours who can never get over the humiliation of being defeated TWICE by Israel that"
I know because ive actually experienced it. It is easy for anyone to claim what i say, but ill leave it to you to choose wether or not you believe my story. I was living in palestine during the first Intifadah, a bit of the second, and this year saw my home, in Brasil, Rafah, Gaza demolished, as well as an uncles nearby business demolished. Prior to that, i had a debate with Robert on the topic. He claimed that the home demolishing stories from the palestinean side (about them not being used by militants, and bulldozed for no reason) as "carefully fabricated". He claimed that they were legitamite targets, as militants used them for firing at Israelis. Now I know a few things about my home, for one im glad my family had moved elsewhere in the previous year, reason being the closness of the home to the egypt/israel border (and hence the constant curfues and impossibility of life), secondly the home was in a refugee camp, the one my grandfather and father lived in most of their lives when in 1948 israelies came up to my grandfather, whom at the time lived in askalan, and ordered him to leave his home, upon which he refused and was shot in the leg consequently, later on forced into the brasil refugee camp. The home was occupied by no militant, but by my uncle. And no one fired a single bullet from it. How could they when the only thing viewable from the front of the home was a high solid wall of the nieghbors home, and the same from the back. Any claim someone fired from it would be simply rediculous considering its position. So that is clear in my mind, my home was not buldozed because they suspected militants to be living there, or because someone used it for any purpose relating to the resistance. Robert was wrong, i was right. Israelis DO bulldoze the home of innocent people. It as a matter of fact bulldozed every home of the dirt poor refugee camp, where are the less fortunate people gonna live?
And why was my home bulldozed?

"As the Palestinians[or their mouthpiece] have declared many times; their intention is to wipe out Israel, the Jewish state will NOT be allowed to exist."
And the israeli rightwing parties? They declared their intention of kicking out the remaining palestineans into jordan and egypt, and retaking parts of lebanon, all part of their "promised land". In 2000 israel released maps and plans of what future invasions into other arab territory. Its no secret israel already wiped out most of palestinen. Then again israel denies the right of many palestineans, such as myself, the right to return to the lands we come from. In my case Askalan (or Ashkelon as the isrealies call it). Its nothing surprising people want to wipe israel out. For almost every person in "israel" comes from some forign land, from france, from south africa, from America, but almost never from palestine. And when they came, they killed, they terrorised, the burnt villages in their whole. What right do they have to this land? None, but this is what was foretild in the Bible, in the Ahadeeth, that the jews of the world would converge onto Palestine. It comes as no surprise that the main funders of American jewish immigration to "israel" are the many churches of America, evangelical catholic christians. And when they fund these projects, they are directly misplaceing and destroying palestine. The difference between the clash in cultures is one is open about its intentions, the other is cunningly hypocritical. I do however recall America wiped out the indian natives. That dosnt say much in favour of America.

"Any SANE Palestinian Leader would have done a deal for SOME land,taken it,established themselves and tried to get a thriving economy going...Then, in a stronger position they would have negotiated for more land
back."
Very good. Who put an end to the peace negociations. What many refuse to acknoloedge is the fact no peace can occur with sharon, and to a lesser, but still high extent, arafat in power. Sharon is a mass murderer responcible for Sabra &Shatilah massacures, 1500 or so lives, everyone in the camp. Arafat is not popular what so ever. I have no clue how he got elected, but i know that people simply dont trust him, and that dosnt say much either. And the very fact that sharon is the reason for this whole mess, his visit to Masjid Al Aqsa destroyed everything.

"Israel has got an economy going and a modern
headset into 2004 whilst Palestinians give every
indication of living in a feudal society governed
by guns,bombings,lawlessness, everything in fact that discourages investment and tourists."
Prior to the intifadah Palestine had one of the strongest economies relative to its arab neighbors, as well as a higher GNP per capita. As for the guns and bombings, none of that happened during the times of relative peace after oslo. It also had a rather thriving tourist industry, not to forget palestine is home to bethleham, and many other important islamic sites. I recall that on one beach side resort in gaza city, when visiting it in the morning there was not one arab face. I beg you actually look into everything before you make your judgment based on TV pictures.

"THINK RATIONALLY instead of sending another suicide bomber to Israel"
I think the only person who should of thought rationally was Barak when he gave Sharon the power and men to force himself into islams 3rd holiest site.

Dear HG,
"Make an emergency appointment with your optometrist - I’m not “Hugh”, but “HGII”, formerly “HG”, before the recent technical difficulties. Granted, it could look a bit close: I might change it back, or to something different, or I may not. I’m much flattered that you find my writing as articulate as “Hugh”’s; as well as pleased that you deem it worth your scan."
Sorry about the mix up. It does look the same.

"I don’t live in America and I don’t own any guns or slaves."
Glad to hear that

"Your main claim is that the “Palestinian” entity’s not terminally fractured, that it’s adequately cohesive and can weather the collapse of the Palestine Authority and Arafat without a civil war - in spite of the endemic crime and mounting, internal and chaos in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, in the news, pointing diametrically in the opposite direction."
In quite a few countries this happens from time to time. Palestine does not have a history of civil wars like, lets say lebanon, to break into civil war, let alone on the level you spoke of. What the TV reports point to anger at the appointment of Mosa Arafat as head of security, as it would only lead to more corruption. Civil Wars need far too many fractions, and a far stronger purpose. But I agree, time will only tell.

"But next, indeed, you openly recommend that the uplifting of the “Palestinians” lies optimally in the hands of HAMAS! I read that through twice, but then no further."
I dont believe you understood me. I believe nothing of the sort, a quote to what gave you that idea please.

"On the strength of that recommendation alone of yours, I must take it that you are against the existence of the State of Israel "
Actually i believe i should have the right to return, and the right to self rule. Id love to think of it in that way, but with the bible, as well as the ahadeeth indicating that israel will be created and destroyed, i believe its destruction is inevitable. As for the Hamas dogma, i believe in aspects of it, but not everything they say.

"that “Islam is the Answer to Everything”, that you support Islamo-fascism in the “War on Terror”. If so, there’s nothing more to discuss"
I know you support, as well as everyone here the War of terror waged by America. But im always willing to discuss, muslims will never dissapear, and neither will americans. And the support for an islamic state, and a western one will never dissapear. It is arrogant to presume so, and arrogant to believe you can continue without actually facing those whose views are completly the opposite of yours. I dont know what you currently think i believe, and there is no way i can correct that without a disscussion.

Regards
Ahmad

Dear Ahmad
Would say your story has a certain ring of truth
about your personal circumstances.You will be aware as I am that Palestinian groups have no hesitation in firing from among children, hiding in Refugee camps when they know Israelis will retaliate: suggesting these 'heroes' don't give a damn about the Palestinian people to put innocent lives in such jeopardy.There will be no Military Solution to Palestinian Question unless you and others want the Middle East as a Nuclear Desert.
Greatest tragedy of all is Jews and Palestinians
belong to same Semitic People yet are fighting each other to the DEATH.Like everyone else in the
world you will have to compromise and find a peaceful solution.For example, our fathers fought the Germans in WW11.A common expression going around at the time was 'Only Good German is a Dead
German.' Yet, now Germany is peacefully allied to rest of Europe.Old hatreds and grudges won't solve
Palestinian problems, only a political solution
will do that.It is much easier to kill someone [whom you say is your enemy] than to sit down with
them and work out a solution. Not all Jews are BAD
anymore than all Palestinians are GOOD. Urge you to look for a peaceful solution[of course Jews are
weary of all this carnage and death too] and try
building bridges instead of destroying them. Believe me when I say, most people in the world
would be delighted if there was PEACE in Palestine.
Regards

Dear Morgane,
"You will be aware as I am that Palestinian groups have no hesitation in firing from among children, hiding in Refugee camps when they know Israelis will retaliate"
I have never seen them fire from among children. As for hiding, its their home. Thats how resistance works, a person resists from his location. Anything else is suicide, and will only leave the poeple vulnerable. Israeli soldiers are, too, between their people. You would have no trouble pointing out any soldier in "israeli" cities. However, this is the exact manner in which the palestineans justify suicide bombings, as do israelies justify incursions. Based on the ideology that the enemy is within the civlian populations, hence it is ok to attack the civilian populations. Palestineans claim that every israeli over the age of 18 has served in the occupation of palestine, and returns for 4 weeks to the army each year untill they reach old age, so they are legitimate targets. Israelies claim that militants "hide" between the civilain populations, hence there incursions are legitamite. Either way they are each risking the life of innocent people. No, there is no better side.

"Greatest tragedy of all is Jews and Palestinians
belong to same Semitic People yet are fighting each other to the DEATH.Like everyone else in the
world you will have to compromise and find a peaceful solution."
As i said, id love to see somthing of peace come about. But with bush telling palestineans, like my self, that we must forget about the right of return, he isnt helping whatsoever. And with people like sharon in power, a right wing extremist bent on annihalating the idea of a independant palestinean state, chances dont seem to good for peace, not from a palestinean point of view.

"It is much easier to kill someone [whom you say is your enemy] than to sit down with
them and work out a solution."
Yes, that is true.

"Not all Jews are BAD"
Yes i know. I have israeli friends, of whome helped translate my site (not a political one) into hebrew. Also, there are some very very nice jews i have come across. Some are our closest family friends.

"Urge you to look for a peaceful solution[of course Jews are
weary of all this carnage and death too] and try
building bridges instead of destroying them."
Unfortunatly peace is in the hands of the politicians. They can manipulate people, they can spread propganda, they can make the compromises, etc...

Regards
Ahmad