Remember: to "paralyze the rise of Islam" is to create the pretext for offensive jihad. From AP, with thanks to Nicolei:
The leader of Malaysia's Islamic fundamentalist party on Friday accused the United States of using its war on terror "to paralyze the rise of Islam" and seize control of oil reserves.In his biggest speech since his party suffered a crushing defeat in general elections in March, Abdul Hadi Awang also accused Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi's government of supporting US ambitions and undermining Malaysia's sovereignty.
Opening the annual conference of the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, Abdul Hadi launched a scathing attack on the US and its allies, describing them as "gangsters in the Persian Gulf," and accused them of attacking Islam under the pretext of combatting terrorism.
"Now they are trying to ... force Islamic countries to amend the teachings of Islam and remove jihad teachings from Islam so that the world is left only with a US version of Islam and not the teachings of the Prophet," Abdul Hadi said.
This comment is quite useful, but not in the way its author intended. So the United States, in his view, is attempting to "amend the teachings of Islam" so that Jihad, its central tenet (aside from the Five Pillars of indidivual worship, which receive so much attention and are, essentially, irrelevant to the main problem, and even help to obscure it) is no longer part of Islam. One does not know if that is true, but it ought to be true. And his understanding that Jihad is central to Islam is, of course, correct. One of things about such people is that they, unapologetically, tell us the truth about Islam. It is those who sometimes are falsely described as "moderates" who fail to tell the truth. No one who is a true "moderate" and who, furthermore, does not wish Infidels harm, should take part in misleading people as to what the real tenets of Islam are, and what their textual sources are, and how they are spread and received in mosques and madrasas. If someone is willing to fully expose the real teachings of Islam, but nonetheless adds that he, or she, possibly out of filial piety, nonetheless will not call himself an ex-Muslim, may at least be listened to. All others are participants, not necessarily from malevolent motives but from that same filial piety or embarrassment (I don't really want to tell people what Islam is all about), or even out of ignorance (some Muslims, especially those raised in the West, who do not attend mosques, or have as little idea as to what actually is spread throughout the Muslim countries, through khutbas, audiocassettes, the writings of Qaradawi and so on, may in fact, though calling themsevelves "Muslim" and having Infidels defer to their presumably superior knowledge, know far less about Islam than Infidels who have immersed themselves in study of the matter).
Does a simple Russian peasant know more about Russian history and literature than the non-Russian Richard Pipes? Does a French fisherman know more about French literature than Richard Howard? Does a Chiinese peasant know more about China than Richard Legge? Or Arthur Waley? The anti-intllectualism which accords undue deference to the "authentic native" leads to all sorts of absurdities. Thus the late Edward Said, not a Muslim, and someone who had never studied Islam, was treated as some kind of expert on Islam because he was -- well, because he was an Arab Christian who, by dint of his throwing around flattering book blurbs like confetti, and having liquid brown eyes, and manipulating limitless Western guilt about something called "colonialism," managed to get himself not only accepted as an expert on Islam, but as one who could presume to judge those who had for decades been engaged in close and even sympathetic study (Lewis, his main vicitm, is in fact far too easy on Islam, far too willing to exaggerate the achievements of "Islamic civlization" and much too willing to blackball certain scholars of the main subject that Lewis avoided, that of the treatment of non-Muslims under Islam) of Islam.
Malaysia, of course, still has the "jizya." It has another name: Bhumiputra, or "Sons of the Soil." But it is not the real "sons of the soil," the largely Christianized indigenous tribes, who benefit from the program of Bhumiputra. No, it is the Muslim Malays, who must be brought in by the far more industrious and enterprising Chinese and Indians who also are citizens -- second-class citizens -- of Malaysia.
It is fascinating to compare the economic develoopment of Singapore, a non-Muslim city-state, with that of Malaysia. The scale kicks the beam, in favor of Singapore, despite the total absence of any natural wealth, and the vast natural wealth (rubber trees, anyone?) of Malaysia. Although Malaysia got off to a reasonable start -- or rather, Malaya did, under the intelligent leadership of a certain self-effacing leader Marshall, who happened to be one of those Baghdadi Jews, like the Kadoories and Sassoons, who spread out across Asia, and who was Malaya's first president. Tunku Abdul Rahman was also not so bad. And of course the riches of Malaysia are considerable. And for a while it was favored by computer firms and suchlike, now busily removing themselves to China, or to Singapore, where that little problem of Islam is not to be found. If you were an Infidel business executive, would you like to have your companies in a Muslim country, and sometimes have to visit that country? Of course not.
Malaysia's economy will inevitably decline, because the most productive members of the country, the non-Muslims, are getting fed up with the Bhumiputra system and have other possiblities. And this "success story" of the Islamic world will, despite its natural riches, despite the legacy of Great Britain, despite the early leadership, almost inevitably decline. Just as all of the OPEC oil countries, despite their vast unearned wealth, have failed completely to create modern economies. There is a lesson here for others. If you want economic success, you might consider the effect of a belief-system, including one that makes it hard for its adherents to coooperate, to the extent that they are adherents of that belief system, with Infidels, and that also has a strong element of fatalism that discourages human effort, and certainly looks down upon individual human achievement. We are slaves of Allah, and men should know their place. That has a way of dampening one's enthusiasm to shine, to stand out. The relation of belief-system to economic performance, as the relation of belief-system to intellectual achievement over time -- these are subjects that deserve widespread study, and pondering.
US version of islam?
That's easy:
No Islam at all. Problem solved!
I can't wait for the day when a muslim leader criticizes us for EXTERMINATING ISLAM!!!!!!
Oh, wait - when we have succeeded at the extermination of this plague upon the earth,
there won't be any more muslim leaders!
Opening the annual conference of the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, Abdul Hadi launched a scathing attack on the US and its allies, describing them as "gangsters in the Persian Gulf," and accused them of attacking Islam under the pretext of combating terrorism.
Osama Bin Laden is using Islam as a pretext to make war against the US. He is really attacking Jews and Christians. He has been laden with the burden of death, by a Country that has more power than his Allah. We have showed that this moon god is really a rock with no power.
How does a little tiny Country like Israel survive in a sea of Islam? Israel has won every war they have fought. I see no evidence that Islam’s god has any power what so ever. If they are about peace then explain how if in Saudi Arabia standing on a street corner yelling Islam is not peace, you would be killed. Does that sound peaceful?
Christopher Columbus was probably a Jew, he left Spain like a Jew.
What Hugh says about Muslims being ignorant of their own faith really rings true.
A close friend of mine from a Muslim family became 'frum' (whatever the Muslim equivalent is) a few years ago - family pressure, wanting to marry the man she loved. But her version of the faith is just like a really nice version of the best bits of Christianity. She's an exceptionally good person and therefore a bad Muslim.
Since September 11 I've read a lot about Islam on Faithfreedom, Secularislam, Answeringislam and so on. When I raise issues from these sites she gets very upset and says that it can't be true. Sometimes I've tricked her by saying, in a completely different context, that I'd heard of a 50 year old man who had sex with a 9 year old. She says that that's evil and disgusting, and clearly doesn't know that the 'prophet' did just that.
Coming back to the topic, the Malaysian fundamentalist leader is actually right. Yes, this is about paralyzing the rise of Islam. Good thing too.
This is a great story. It's past time for Islam to reform and join modern times.....The earth isn't flat, Muslims......Join us in the 21st century and you'll learn much more than that.
Or, die as cavemen......One way or another, Islam will be overpowered and reformed. That, or there may be no more Muslims left to practice it.
Either way is alright with me. I just want them the hell out of the U.S.
One more thing...During Bush's stumping last night on C-Span, he made the statement that we will be spreading freedom around the world......
Bad news for Islamic males, good news for Islamic females. Say goodbye, Fred Flinstone types.
>I can't wait for the day when a muslim leader
>criticizes us for EXTERMINATING ISLAM!!!!!!
It seems unlikely that we could "exterminate" Islam or even outlaw it like Nazism. That would be an Armageddon type event wouldn’t it? Prohibition never works that well anyway.
What are the current rational theories on how to defuse Islam? Could the UN pass a resolution outlawing religious practices that promote violence? If they did would it do any good? It seems an insurmountable problem. Just saying, “Kill them all and let Allah sort them out” doesn’t do much for the situation.
It seems it always comes back to education.
f.g.
I was reviewing the 'metal board' of the Olympics, an old habit acquired by children of the cold war, and I noticed something that I think relates to Hugh's comments on achievement and Islam.
If I am not mistaken, Australia won more metals than just about every country with a Muslim majority population, including Turkey and Indonesia, combined.
One could write that off to economics and sports programs...but does the belief system of 'Islam' have something to do with it? Why compete? We are slaves of Allah, after all.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2768206
Aug. 30, 2004, 11:47AM
Al-Sadr tells followers to end fighting
Insurgent attacks cuts oil exports
Associated Press
BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Rebel Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr called for his followers across Iraq to end fighting against U.S. and Iraqi forces and is planning to join the political process in the coming days, an al-Sadr aide said today.
Before the attack, Iraq's exports from the south were about 600,000 barrels a day -- a third the normal average of 1.8 million barrels a day due to a separate string of attacks early last week. The pipelines were still ablaze today, the official said.
Who does this hurt? Not the USA but the Iraqi People who have no money for food will they let these mulsum terrorist kill them all?
It is not the USA who made France make the young girls stop wearing those head scarfs?
These people are going around the world killing non-mulsums and now they are crying like pigs?
We can't hear them? they hate all non-mulsums we will forgive ourselves like our Grandparents did in WW2?
remember the 3Ts & the 3Ws
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen
f.g. - hey, that's a great idea! Why, all we need to do is educate them! God, why hasn't anyone else ever thought of that?
Take off the rose-colored glasses. ALL of the 19 hijackers were educated, from middle class families. bin-laden is educated, went to school in england. al-zawahiri is a physician. There are plenty of muslims who are educated - & they would gladly kill you just the same for no other reason than you are not a muslim. You do not fight & win a WAR by educating the enemy. You destroy them to the point that they realize that continuing in their way will lead only to death. You may then "educate" them on how to properly behave & play well with others & join the world rather than continue to try & destroy it.
The march toward Islamization of the world should be paralyzed as Islam will surely paralyze us! Islam commits any and all atrocities against non-Muslims and Muslims give each other accolades. Non-Muslims resist the degradation of their rights as well as atrocities against them, and Muslims scream and cry that they are being "paralyzed." What's wrong with this picture?
Jim,
I didn't mean they that they needed to learn their multiplication tables. I was talking about educating them about the truth about Islam and how civilized people are supposed to act. Granted this might prove to be problematic.
Alternatively you have something like Islam declares war on the world (which depending on who you read, they may have already done) and/ or the UN declares Islam or Islamic governments illegal and goes after them like they were Nazis and Hitler had risen from the grave. Seems unlikely.
The magnitude of people of the Islamic persuasion in the world makes all this talk about “getting rid of Islam” seem to be just that, a bunch of pointless chest beating and hot air. It is simply impossible.
Something in me wants to say this will come down to a world war that will make the first two look like panty raids. Most of me wants to believe there has to be a peaceful solution to the problem. I’m highly pessimistic in general however.
f.g.
Well of course the civilized world is trying to remove jihad from the teachings of Islam. Jihad is a meme that is fatal to the global social organism that it has infected. Other Islamic memes that have been selected by nature for extinction include those human rights allocation mechanisms that are functions of gender or belief. The rest of the world has discarded these memes as ideological failures. If the Islamic corpus cannot survive without them, then so be it, let it be entirely exterminated. It can then join the host of failed ideologies like nazism, racism and others that mankind has tossed into the dustbin of history.
Here is the ultimatum now presented to the ummah: reform and adapt to the modern reality of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, or choose to be extinguished by the transendent power of Gaia. You see, it is nothing personal. It is nature. Defy it and you, your memes, and your genes, will all perish, forever. It really is that simple.
f.g.:
The UN has already banned religious practices that promote violence. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights bans the advocacy of national, religious and racial hatred that incites discrimination, hostility and violence. Has it done any good? Sudan, for one, is a signatory state party to the ICCPR (when told by the UN to get its actions in-line with the ICCPR, most specifically in regards to Darfur, Khartoum characterized the UN's demands as an "attack on Islam"). Note that this prohibition is not included in the Universal Declaration of Islamic Human Rights or the Arab Charter on Human Rights. To ban this incitement would be to ban the Call to Jihad, and I doubt you and I will ever see this happen, given Jihad's prominence in Islamic doctrine. This has been a huge bone of contention in human rights circles, and the Islamic world has remained intransigent on the issue, for obvious reasons.
Thanks Mike, it figures that such laws would already exist.
It would seem like the more public dialog we get on this the better even though it will stir up the crazys. You would think that it would not be that difficult to convince someone that killing other people, just because they disagree with you, isn't in the "Divine Plan".
Telling a group of people that their club's by-laws can't have a "kill all non-members" clause is a reasonable thing you would think. The kicker is that they believe the creator of the universe wants the rules that way. How do you trump that guy?
f.g.
It is sad, but the Qur'an is in the way of improving human rights in the Islamic world. The UIDHR doesn't even ban genocide and slavery, because these are all incorporated into the doctrine of Jihad. It's an immense problem.
f.g.,
Here's how "Christians" are treated in Islamic countries.
The following story was published in a monthly news letter from Voice of the Martyrs, which is and interdenominational organization dedicated to assisting the persecuted church worldwide.
VOM was founded in 1967 by Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, who was imprisoned and tortured in "Communist" Romania for fourteen years for his faith in Jesus Christ.
Everyone here at Jihad watch should read this.
"Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them,and lie in wait for them in every ambush...." Qu'ran, Sura 9:5
Nineteen-year-old Christian university student Javed Anjum lived in Quetta,a city in Western Pakistan close to the Afghan border.He was the victim of a savage attack at a "madrassa" (Islamic school) in Tarandi Village, last spring.
Javed disappeared April 17th,2004, as he traveled to his grandfather's home.His family says he stopped to drink some water from the tap of the Jamia Hassab Bin Murtzaz Islamic school. Radical Muslims often prohibit Christians and other non-Muslims from drinking from their wells and taps, because they believe the lips of non-believers "contaminate their water". Javed was no exception. He was dragged into the madrassa where he was brutally beaten and tortured for five days. Javed, before he died told a VOM representive that when he his tormentors learned he was a Christian, they demanded he convert to Islam.
He was subjected to severe torture when he refused to deny Christ. He received electric shocks,and his torturers attempted to pull his ears and fingernails off with a pair of pliers. His feet were stabbed with a sharp ice pick,and his right arm and fingers were broken.His back and lower abdomen were beaten with a iron rod,and he suffered internal injuries to his kidneys and bladder.
The Madrassah officals turned Anjum over to the police on April 22nd,2004 insisting that they caught him attempting to steal the school's water pump.
Anjum was transported to a local hospital where he later died of his injuries. His medical records and chart mysteriously disappeared.
Interestd:
You've come to the right place, sort of. I can completely understand your intellectual searchings, and have had many similar experiences.
(Current posters/members: please
shut your eyes!!Pretend you're Muslim.)
What you're saying is 100% true. There are MANY Western-educated Muslims who simply need to be shone the light. The light of
Truth, Reason, Sanity, whatever. They have never fully read the evil contained in the Koran or the Ahadith.
Remember, these Muslims are people too,and did not choose their religion voluntarily.
Remember, these Muslims are people too,and did not choose their religion voluntarily.
Posted by: kafira at August 30, 2004 07:13 PM
Wrong!! this is not the same as your color or sex[but in the west we can change that too] these are things that life says must not be changed but to choose you you worship is your choice!!
The mulsums bully's say you have to worship their god well that is what we are try-ing to change so people can choose?
Will this happen easy NO!!
Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] Amen
If they think they are being paralyzed now wait to see what is in store in the VERY near future.
As I quote from another member to this post
"Lock and Load".
Catherine-
Right now I lack the energy to engage you in an involved philosophical dialogue, but the gist of what I said was this:
Many Muslims here now in the U.S.(first or second generation immigrants) practice Islam simply because their parents practice it. (The recent converts are another issue, altogether. These folks deserve another board.) They have not read the entire contents of the Koran and indeed may not understand the history of its tenets, ancient Arabia, the historical character of Muhammed, etc. They think that by merely eschewing pork and wearing the hijab they are good Muslims.
My ancestors on both sides of my family were Lutherans dating back to the Reformation. However, if I were to encounter Martin Luther at this very moment, you can bet I'd have words with him!!! Many unenlightened Muslims are in this position.
kafira,
Good idea lets send all the poor uninformed "Muslims" to re-education camps, if that doesn't work then maybe they can try an anger management course...
"Many Muslims here now in the U.S.(first or second generation immigrants) practice Islam simply because their parents practice it. (The recent converts are another issue, altogether. These folks deserve another board.) They have not read the entire contents of the Koran and indeed may not understand the history of its tenets, ancient Arabia, the historical character of Muhammed, etc".
Do you realy believe that the majority of Musliums that you speak of are not aware of the obligatory requirement of "Jihad" and what it's true meaning is?
There are hundreds if not thousands of websites devoted to Islam. I can hardly believe that these "Muslims" as you say are unaware of the truth.
I am sorry to say your comments sound as if you are a politically correct liberal.
Hugh is correct in saying Muslims know very little about the history of their religion. This is due mainly to the ruling ulama who suppress the truth about Islamic history, keeping the majority of Muslims in the dark about their religion.
As for the U.S. "paralyzing the rise of Islam" -- that is a good thing. Totally eradicating Islam from the planet would be the best thing if the human race is to survive this century and the coming centuries.
...'accused U.S of paralyzing Islam..'
If only this was true! Alas, only part of Muslim
strategy to make themselves to be 'poor, oppressed
Muslims,blah,blah...'
The leader of the Islamic fundamentalist party made that speech as a last minute appeal to the voters of a by-election which pitted his party against the "moderate" Muslim party.
The state seat was won by the "moderate" party in the April 2004 elections, but the state assemblyman died recently and so the by-election was held.
The result of the by election was that the fundamentalist party lost with an even greater margin.
PAS' hardline message brings defeat
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,4386,270163,00.html?
31 Aug 2004
Maybe it is the giant spiders ...
jay
Son of Infidel,
Please note that I only mentioned ignorant Muslims in the U.S.
"Re-education camps" seem a little excessive at this point. All one has to do is sit down and talk about Muhammed being a pedophile and a sex maniac and after a bit of defensiveness, most of them are on the verge of weeping. True, they may run home and pray fervently, but at least the seed of doubt about their religion has been planted. Same thing about mentioning the real origins of Mecca and the Satanic Verses (not the book by Rushdie.)
I get the feeling that you've never seen or talked to a real Muslim in the flesh. The vast majority of them, especially here in the U.S., are to be pitied for their mindlessness, not feared by those who are in possession of reasoning faculties.
The biggest danger in regards to the PC issue, however, is the perception that it's intolerant to challenge the doctrines of ANY religion. These people need to know that moral relativism has gone the way of the dinosaur and yes, people SHOULD be squeamish about defending a religion founded by a pedophile/thief/murderer.
(As far as me being a "politically correct liberal:" as I recall, it was YOUR hero Dubya who celebrated the last Eid with the goons from CAIR.)
I think Kafira is spot on and I've nothing to add.
"get the feeling that you've never seen or talked to a real Muslim in the flesh".
To the contrary I have spoken to many so called "moderate" Muslims and they refuse to acknowledge the true "evil" of Islam.
Futhermore, they firmly state that nothing in the Qu'ran can be changed or omitted as it is the word of "Allah" given to the prophet "Mohammed"
Evidently, you and your ilk are living in a liberal utopian fantasy land and are blinded by your pc socialist view of the world.
George Bush is not as you say my hero.This is just an ignorant statement on your part.
The Democrats Embrace "Al-Jazeera"
"Despite Democratic Presidential Nominee John Kerry’s assertion that as President, he would “use every available resource to destroy terrorists and deny them sanctuary…and new recruits,” one of the invited guests at the now-concluded Democratic National Convention was an organization that has served as a terrorist recruitment tool, a communications conduit for al-Qaeda in general and Osama bin Laden in particular. High above the platform and the sea of “Kerry-Edwards” placards, covering the convention from a skybox towering over the Fleet Center floor was Arabic network "Al-Jazeera"
PS: Interested, of course you agree with Kafira,you are both cut from the same "liberal" cloth.
When the blind follow the blind, they both fall into the river.