UK: Police investigate preacher's criticism of Islam

How does one investigate his comments? If they do research and find out he is Right, what will they do then, ignore the truth?

Well, Islam has certainly proven that they're in no way affiliated with "Welcome Wagon".....

The thought police. Truth is stranger than fiction. Who would have thought that Britain of the 21st century would actually fulfill Orwell's prophecy of a thought police.

Community cohesiveness must mean adherence to Sharia.

This is a cautionary tale and should be an object lesson for America. The American thought police are organizing as we speak in the guise of hate crime legislation that will be "interpreted" by activist judges. Beware, this is not joke!

I have the right to criticise the islam, I think that soon this webs will be censured, I am tired of hearing despectives comments of my religion and I can´t criticise islam, but what world are building?, someone can explain to me this!

I don't know whether to shit or go blind when I read stuff like this! Insanity!!! Damage to community cohesiveness??? Show me one place in the world that has true community cohesiveness where islam comes in contact with ANY other belief system. There is none. But, I firmly believe that history will be a better judge & will actually applaude these men for refusing to close their eyes, close their mouths & shut-down their brains. They see islam for the disease that it is & are trying to wake people up. BTW, has anyone heard any further news of the courageous politician in Norway that said much the same thing about a month ago? Last I had heard, the press & islamic apologists were labeling him a racist hate-monger in order to discredit him, lest his comments wake more of his countrymen up to the threat within their midst.

Rev. Clifford didn't say anything about Muslims; he criticized Islam only. This proves that the "diversity officers" are trying to shut down criticism of Islam, not just "incitement" against Muslims.

It's a de facto blasphemy law for Islam. Thank goodness for the United States. It is the only country in the world where freedom of speech actually means something. Look at the Blasphemy Law in Pakistan:

http://www.domini.org/openbook/unveiling_of_pakistan.htm#_Toc474513956

The Blasphemy Law

There are four specific blasphemy provisions in the Pakistan Penal Code, known as Articles 295, 295A, 295B, and 295C. The latter one is most critical today with respect to non-Muslims, as it is used with great frequency to jail innocents—for years—who have had some secular dispute with a Muslim neighbor or other acquaintance, as illustrated above; and it is the one that carries the death penalty. These four blasphemy provisions are set forth below. (A complete copy is attached hereto as Exhibit B.) These are known in the Penal Code as "Offenses Relating to Religion": 7

295. Injuring or defiling a place of worship, with intent to insult the religion of any class.

Punishment: Two years in prison or fine or both.

295A. Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.

Punishment: Ten years in prison or fine or both.

295B. Defiling, etc. of copy of Holy Quran.

Punishment: Life in prison

295C. Use of derogatory remark, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet.

Punishment: Death penalty

This last section was not added to the criminal code of Pakistan until 1986, again in continuation of the Islamisation of the whole country. Most important to note is that when initially adopted, Section 295C provided the punishment option of life in prison rather than death. However, in 1991, the Federal Shariat Court ruled that the option of life in prison was repugnant to Islam and struck it from the Code Section.

Because of the fanaticism surrounding these blasphemy cases, families generally do not visit their accused, as they are taunted and harassed and fear for their own lives when they go to the jails. Even if the accused would be released on bail, his or her own life is at risk from the time he or she leaves the jail.

Is there someway to show our support for Alan Cliford? We can atleast email him and show our support, if nothing else.

I have sent my email supporting the pastor to his church.

Go to a search engine and put in Norwich Reformed Church.

I was happy to point out to the pastor that if the liberals want Islam/Muslims to be a race, then that also makes Christians a race! Something that we should start taking advantage of.

Where are my rights, I am of the Christian race. Don't talk bad about me, don't insult me, don't do anything that may affend me or I will go to the ACLU!

I can see it now. Come on everyone we can start playing this game too.

I shall be mailing my support for Rev Alan Clifford.

The French writer Jacques Ellul noted back in the late 1980s "that it is impossible to say anything negative against Islam." That was France. Now the deliberate exploitation of laws having to do with race are being employed to silence those who make comments about a belief-system that, if examined in any rational manner, clearly divides the world between Believer and Unbeliever (Infidel), sees Islam as religion that must "dominate and not be dominated," looks forward to the spread of Islam across the entire globe whether or not non-Muslims desire it, and intends, in the case of those non-Muslims who have been subjugated, to offer them the choice of being killed, or converting to Islam, or in the case of those willing to accept a condition of permanent humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity, the possiblity of continuing to physically exist as ahl al-kitab, or "People of the Book," but at any moment, and for any supposed violation even by one member of the supposedly "protected" community, even that status can end on Muslim whim.

Let there be a full investigation of Qur'an and hadith. Let scholars, not apologists, testify. Let the trial be like that of Mark Durie in Australia. Let everyone be forced take a close look at Qur'an 9:29, and more than a hundred Qur'anic verses about the Jihad, as well as the remarks by the classical commentators on it, of all four Sunni schools of jurisprudence. Let the remarks of even Averroes, and al-Ghazali, and Ibn Khaldun, about Jihad be placed into the record. Let the doctrine of naskh or abrogation be explained, so that those apologists for Islma who would disingenuously attempt to convince us that some of the abrogated verses were still relevant. Let those who would, Michael-Sells-like, force-feed us a sanitized Qur'an, like the one thrust on unwary Chapel Hill freshmen), be forced to stick to the real texts. And in addition, do not forget the hadith in one of the "authentic" collections, such as those of al-Bukhari and Muslim. Let there be scholarship adduced -- the scholarship of Antoine Fattal, of Charles-Emmanuel Dufourcq, of Henri Laoust, of Emile Fagnan, of Snouck Hurgronje, Margoliouth, Schacht, Majid Khadduri, Patricia Crone. Let scholars from India testify as to what the Muslim conquest meant for the Hindus, and not only the 60-70 million who were murdered. Let the more recent reports, from the field, of Peroncel-Hugoz on the Copts in Egypt, of Mary Boyce on the Zoroastrians, of Laurence Loeb on the Jews of Iran, of the diplomats quoted in Bat Ye'or's major works all be brought to bear. Indeed, let Bat Ye'or herself testify as to the institution of dhimmitude, so that the word itself becomes as much a household word, comes as quickly to the lips and to the minds, as such notions as "colonialism." For whatever the sins of the colonialists, their domination and exploitation lasted a century in some places, two centuries in others. But "dhimmitude" as an institution following upon Jihad-conquest, has lasted for 1350 years, and in its attempt to destroy the pre-Islamic or non-Islamic worlds of the peoples subjugated by Islam, caused far more grief, to more people, and had much more profound effects -- for how else could so many peoples and lands, once Christian, or Jewish, or Zoroastrian, or Hindu or Buddhist or Confucian --- from the Atlantic, all the way to the Pacific Oceans, have been forced to accept a status of humiliation, degradation, and permanent insecurity, that in many cases led to their slow asphyxiation, so that they themselves, as they slowly disappeared and became completely or almost completely Muslim, lost all sense not only of what they had once been, but also any sense or possiblity of what they might have been, and embraced the ideology of their conquerors far more fully than any colonized territory ever did.

And along with the genuine scholars, not the apologists, from the past, let modern scholars, of the origins of early Islam, including Crone and Cook, or historians of more recent times who can testify about Muslim treatment of non-Muslims. In the Ottoman domains alone one thinks of Peter Balakian, Vankh Dadrian, Speros Vakolopoulos, and their unassailable evidence.

And then let the most important people of all speak: the ex-Muslims, the defectors. Start with Ibn Warraq, Anwar Shaikh, Ali Sina, Azam Kamguian. Let them explain what it was about Islam that made them leave it. Let the testimony of many others be adduced.

By the end, the Muslim groups in England, the Race Relations people, will wish -- as day after day of testimony piles up -- that they had never investigated Alan Clifford. ims, including Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Azam Kamquian.

There are cases that transcend their time. Sometimes it is merely because they are sensational or fantastic. The Tichborne case in the 19th century, the O. J. Simpson case in this century, come to mind as examples of the former. But there is another kind of case, that transcends its time because of the issues that are raised, discussed, that become unforgettably part of a larger history. One thinks of Dred Scott, and Dreyfus. If done right this case -- or whatever case comes along in the same vein if somehow this one is dropped -- can be what modern pedagogues like to call "a learning experience," a Cause Celebre in every sense, and one that, because it will help to elucidate the truth that has been hidden, or explained away,or elided, or suppressed.

IF we can't criticise Islam, then we don't live in a democracy. It's as simple as that.

This is the beginning of the Islamification of Britain which will see Sharia law being brought in.

George Orwell was right. 1984 is arriving soon.

Just think: If the Reverend Clifford had criticised Scientology, no-one would give a damn.

I have already gotten a response from Rev Alan Clifford. He is very appreciative of support and prayers.

He asks that this news be shared and all should know.

Dr Clifford's email add is:
CliffordNRC@compuserve.com,
Please mail him to show your support for the truth.
If we know the truth the truth shall definitely set them free.
Please show your support for Dr clifford by mailing him.
Written by,
Ayatollah Dase(SWT).

We all know the "fairness" of islamic rules. :)

Muslims can be taught that Christianity and Judaism are false religions. They can be taught that Jews are descended from monkeys and apes and can call Jews "deceivers, treacherous, distorters of the truth". They can also be taught to KILL infidels, ie non-muslims and can make death threats and carry them out.

Under muslim ideals thats all fair and rightous muslim behavior.

However... Any Christian or Jewish leader that tells the TRUTH about this barbarious cult seems to be the target of lawsuits or complaints by these people.

Heres another one from last year, this happened in Australia.

http://www.domini.org/openbook/australia200309012.htm

I just sent the following letter:

Reverend Alan Clifford
Norwich Reformed Church

Dear Sir:

I am writing to inform you that I support your efforts to tell people the truth about Islam. I think that you have every right to attack a system of belief. Islam is not a race. Islam is an ideological construct. What is the difference between your criticizing Islam and someone criticizing Marxism? None, in my opinion.

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." (George Orwell)

Mr. Clifford, thank you for your courage; please keep telling the truth.

Yours sincerely,

Another major Religion says the same. I suggest the Reverend and others use this in his/their Defence:
`Smite Turks with immense vigour.........Muslims are polluted` http://allaboutsikhs.com/rehat/rehat_17.htm

Will the British Govt. now ban Sikhism?

This is the Police, come out with your mouth closed? This makes no sense. I can't believe the Cops over there would have their time wasted like this.

What a farce.

Just e-mailed him.

Mentat
you are absolutely right.

critizing Islam is no different to critizing Catholocism, Judaism or communism.

As long as MUSLIMS are not slandered there is no impropriety.

But of Course No one is alloed to do that under Islam especially those who follow "inferior religions".
time this went to court with a few smart logical lawyers for the defence.

MUSLIM JESUS VS. BIBLICAL JESUS

Twenty Two Scriptural Reasons Why They Are Not the Same Jesus

A Compilation and Comparison by James Sundquist (Author & Speaker)
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/Muslim_Jesus_vs_Biblical_Jesus.html

WHAT MUSLIMS THINK OF AMERICA

A Saudi-raised Pastor offers an insider's perspective.
http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?68

more comprehensive studies on Islam here:
http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/islam.html

Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. -- Council on American-Islamic Relations Chairman Omar M. Ahmad, speech, July 1998

Hell is full of the Divine holiness!
(Winslow, "Holiness, the Fruit of the Chastening of Love")

Hell is full of the Divine holiness; holiness
in the manifestation of justice; holiness in
its most glorious exercise.

How fearfully are the lost now learning this truth!

Think it not a trifling matter, unconverted reader,
to look into the bottomless pit, and to know that
there is but a step and you are there! You walk to
the end of the treacherous plank, and you are gone!

O solemn thought! but one step between you and
the quenchless flame! but one step between you
and endless torment!

Throughout eternity the lost soul will be testifying
to this truth: "God is holy; I was a sinner; I rejected
His salvation, I turned my back upon His gospel,
I despised His Son, I hated God Himself, I lived in
my sins, I loved my sins, I died in my sins, and now
I am lost! to all eternity lost! And God is righteous
in my condemnation!"

I have also just written to him. Perhaps he will also write for Jihad Watch, as Hugh does?

Received an E Mail back from Rev Clifford thanking me for my support : he says he may be taken to court. Have mailed two newspapers and will contact others. Rikki, Voltaire, everyone, let's support Alan Clifford because just about every Muslim in Britain will be out to get him...
CONTACT NEWSPAPERS,FREE SPEECH ORGS,POLITICIANS,INFLUENTIAL FRIENDS,MEDIA,ANYTHING YOU CAN THINK OF.

I have always considered myself a religious agnostic.
that means someone who does not believe in the conventional god of religion.
Now, it seems that the secularism of the west is playing straight into the hands of the Islamic invaders. The secular left have blinded themselves to the awful reality of Islamic Imperialism.
Ask yourself this.
How come a tiny nation the size of Israel can ward of the scourges of Islam?
How come all the christian minorities of the east have been almost wiped out?
How come secular Europe is in the last throes of its glorious civilisation?
Secularism breeds cowards and weak hedonists and pseudo intellectual appeasers who are like snails who have lost their shells!
But the Jews believe in their faith and it is Judaism which is the backbone of their 60 year 0ld defence of their country!

Without the backbone of religion we are unable to defend ourselves against Islam.
Whilst Christian churches are destroyed and turned into Islamic Urinals and rubbish dumps, our church leaders do NOTHING except genuflect before their Islamic "brethren'!
This is a scandal! They should be the ones leading the resistance!
Why have all the eastern christian minorities almost vanished?
Because there gutless leaders have betrayed them over and over again.
But the Jews have refused to submit, having learnt from the experiences of the history of their persecution at the hands of europeans and Islam.
Now europe is run by secularist slime bags.
The french ban the Jihab in schools when they should encourage catholics to wear their crosses blatently and Jews their kippas.
REligious education must come back so our kids grow up knowing who they are and where they come from for goodness sake otherwise we will breed a generation of slugs ready to be trampled on by Islam.

Yes, nothing did more to expose the lies of Holocaust revisionisn than the David Irving trial in the UK.
Now as Hugh states it is time to put Islam on trial, with an army of Historians and Koranic experts to expose the horror of Islamic revisionism to the western world.
It will be a mammoth effort and countless lies and mistruths will have to be faced.

There have been a number of articles in the British press lately showing that people are waking up to the reality of Islam. Will Cummins has already been mentioned on this site. Readers may also like to check out Anthony Browne in the Spectator:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php?table=old§ion=back&issue=2004-07-24&id=4835

Anthony Browne was interviewed on Newsnight along with some Muslim Council of Britain guy (Sacanie?). The MCB guy was quick to say that such articles shouldn't be published, but said nothing to refute their content.

George I am believer and I think that all churches catholic, protestant and orthodox are wakening up, and there are many muslims converting and in my country the Catholic Church is criticising the islamic fundamentalism and this is a very good thing,don´t worry and spread the truth, greetings

Along with writing in support of the Reverend, perhaps contacting the Norwich "racial" crimes unit might be in order. Just a short note of about 300 pages or so explaining why Islam isn't a race, the democratic explanation of free speech, what the use of the word infidel means (perhaps a race?), a few examples of true hate speech from the Imams, etc., etc. Or, then again, maybe it should just be a short note the the effect of "WAKE UP" that would be more likely to be read and remembered; something to be pondered over at the end of the day when the uniform is off and the thought police have time to privately think for themselves. It would need to be instructive; nothing scathing, nothing insulting, nothing sarcastic. No one likes to be told they are idiots, you have to lead them to self-realization.

I think that Hugh's idea is excellent. A trial would very well force the issue and it would be impossible to ignore. The actions and writings of Islam speak for themselves and the body of evidence would be very difficult to ignore, even for people who embrace the tyranny of tolerance.

Therefore, if Mr. Clifford is amenable to this suggestion, then it would be necessary to gather lawyers who would wish to take such a case, as well as the long line of witnesses and experts who can testify as to the nature of the beast. But this will take a great deal of money. I have proposed on Anti-Jihad that a fundraising effort begin and I propose it here as well. Even if people will offer their legal skills or testimony for free, there will still need to money for court costs, travel expenses, time, etc.

Thoughts?

Anduril

Where do I send the money?

Morgane

I will contact every newspaper and organisation that I can think of.

Voltaire

EVERYONE

We have to make sure that this trial goes down in history and that this is a turning point in the anti-Islamic struggle.

Al Qaeda Blows up Iraq’s Churches on Way to Vatican http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=884
DEBKAfile Special Report Citing also DEBKA-Net-Weekly

The Federalist Patriot
Founders' Quote Daily

"Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and
intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are
banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest,
and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people,
in order to betray them." --Joseph Story

Does any of this sound familiar? Funny how are forefathers with no computers or calculators any surveillance equipment could come up with a single
paragraph of unequalled proportions some 200 plus years before.

Folks:

I urge you to e-mail Dr. Clifford at CliffordNRC@compuserve.com and offer your support. He has already responded to me with a nice reply and information about his case.

If he is arrested and charged for his views, then the court case will be a cause celebre and we must help him fight the case financially.

This is just like the Catch-the-fire Ministries case in Victoria. The Islamists are trying to shut down criticism of Islam while feeling free to spout their hatred of any other religion.

If we just lie down and take it, they will win.

The fight for Western civilization is on.

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

George Orwell

People, please feel free to post some comments here where many read:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/new_details.asp?ID=17223

Love

Aseity

Soli Deo Gloria

"Islam rules, it is not ruled".

Genocide committed in the name of Allah: 3,000,000 Bangladeshi Hindus Killed during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. From 1894 to 1896 Abdul Hamid, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, killed 150,000 Armenian Christians. In India, Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur along with his disciples was burned to death by the Moghul ruler Aurangzeb in 1675. Another Sikh, Bhai Mati Das was sawn into right and left halves while he was still alive. In July 1974, 4,000 Christians living in Cyprus were killed by Fahri Koroturk, president of Turkey and his Islamic army. From 1843 to 1846 10,000 Assyrian Christians including women and children were massacred by the Muslims. From 1915 to 1918 750,000 Assyrians were killed in the name of Islamic Jihad. In 1933 thousands of Assyrian villagers were murdered by the Iraqi soldiers in Northern Iraq. Since 1990 more than 10,000 Kashmiri Hindus have been brutally murdered by Islamic fundamentalists. Over 280,000 Ugandans killed during the reign of Idi Amin from 1971 to 1979. Over 30,000 Mauritanians have been killed by the Islamic dictators since 1960. In 1980, 20,000 Syrians were murdered under the rule of Hafez Al-Assad, President of Syria. Since 1992 120,000 Algerians have been murdered by the Islamic fundamentalist army. From: http://www.truthtree.com/islam/islam_menu.shtml

Imagine yourself to be cast into a fiery oven!
(The following is from Jonathan Edwards)

"Can your heart endure, or can your hands be
strong in the days that I shall deal with you?
I the Lord save spoken it, and will do it." Ezekiel 22:14

Imagine yourself to be cast into a fiery oven,
or into a great furnace, where your pain would
be as much greater than that occasioned by
accidentally touching a coal of fire, as the
heat is greater. Imagine also that your body
were to lie there for a quarter of an hour, all
the while full of quick sense. What horror would
you feel at the entrance of such a furnace!

And how long would that quarter of an hour seem
to you! And after you had endured it for one minute,
how overbearing would it be to you to think that
you had it to endure the other fourteen minutes!

But what would be the effect on your soul,
if you knew you must lie there enduring that
torment to the full for twenty four hours!

And how much greater would be the effect, if
you knew you must endure it for a whole year!

And how vastly greater still, if you knew
you must endure it for a thousand years!

O then, how would your heart sink, if you
thought, if you knew, that you must bear
it forever and ever! That there would be
no end!

That after millions of millions of ages, your
torment would be no nearer to an end, than
ever it was; and that you never, never
would be delivered!

If you are not a true Christian, your torment
in hell will be immensely greater than this
illustration represents!

How then will the heart of a poor creature
sink under it! How utterly inexpressible and
inconceivable must the sinking of the soul
be in such a case!

Whoever you are, whether young or old,
little or great, if you are in a Christless,
unconverted state, this is the wrath to
which you are condemned. This is the
wrath that abides on you. This is the hell
over which you hang, and into which you
are ready to drop every day and every night.

You may effectually escape these dreadful
and awful torments. Be entreated to flee and
embrace him who came into the world for the
very end of saving sinners from these torments,
and who has paid the whole debt due.

You are exposed to eternal punishment, but
there is a Savior provided, who is able and who
freely offers to save you from that punishment.

Justice is fully satisfied in Christ. All who
believe are accepted and justified in him.
Therefore believe in him, come to him, commit
your souls to him to be saved by him. In him
you shall be safe from the eternal torments of hell.

Nor is that all: but through him you shall inherit
inconceivable blessedness and glory, which will
be of eternal duration with the torments of hell.
For, as at the last day the wicked shall go away
into everlasting punishment, so shall the righteous,
or those who trust in Christ, go into eternal life.

"Can your heart endure, or can your hands be
strong in the days that I shall deal with you?
I the Lord save spoken it, and will do it." Ezekiel 22:14

What a sorry state of affairs this is. I have emailed a note of support also.

Aseity~ posted to that thread. I hope it helps. If even One person makes the effort to check the things I wrote, it may start them down the right road.

From: forrest shalom
Subject: hang tough in Jesus!

dear dr. clifton,

greetings to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ from texas.
i heard of your courageous stand in england concerning islam at jihadwatch.org.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002765.php#comments

please be encouraged!
you are in my prayers.

may the Lord grant you strength and courage to continue to speak the TRUTH
for His sake. this is all he expects from us. He will take care of the rest.

in Messiah Yeshua,

forrest shalom
gospeltracts.org

So , it's come to this. A decent , honest man being attacked by the media and investigated by our gutless police force just for telling the truth. we must all contact our local and national newspapers, radio stations, MPS etc to defend this brave man. Sad that our police force seem more concerned with protecting Islam than the British public. This is the time for all lovers of freedom of speech, liberty and our way of life to get organised.

LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM

Again, for those of you who are new to the thread...we must organize a fund raising campaign to defend this gentleman. Regardless of our differences, this is a fight that every non-Moslem human being should embrace and support.

OT: Here is a great article on censorship as it relates to religion:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1258540,00.html

Without prejudice

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speech impediments

Blunkett could soon be putting a curb on free expression. And we've only ourselves to blame

Nick Cohen
Sunday July 11, 2004
The Observer

In Adelaide, Judge Michael Higgins has spent the best part of a year wrestling with the crime of incitement to religious hatred which David Blunkett wishes to put on the British statute book. It's the first case of its kind in Australia and whatever happens Higgins is assured a place in legal history. But the prospect of recognition by his peers hasn't made the experience of trying to reconcile the mutually incompatible claims of fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity any less wretched.
The poor man sounded at the end of his tether when he begged the parties, the Islamic Council of Victoria and Catch the Fire Ministries, to leave him alone and settle their dispute amicably

'This case, quite frankly is getting out of control,' he cried. 'Is there any point in giving you half an hour to explore the possibility of mediation?' There wasn't. Although lawyers for both sides said that in normal circumstances their clients were civilised people who liked to keep grievances in proportion and reconcile differences amicably, the intolerable behaviour of the other side made reconciliation impossible. The judge said he hadn't seen anything to match their obduracy in his 19 years on the bench.

The Islamic Council has good reason to feel abused. Muslims members of the audience at a seminar for Catch the Fire, an evangelical Christian group which prays for Australia (someone must), heard that Daniel Scot described Muslims as terrorists and rapists who sanctioned the abuse of women and deceit in dealings with unbelievers. On his own admission, another pastor with the mission had put mosques in a list of 'strongholds of Satan' alongside brothels, off-licences and casinos. Yasser Soliman, the president of the Islamic Council, said Catch the Fire was whipping up a backlash against Australian Muslims after the 11 September and the Bali atrocities.

But then it turned out that Scot was drawing on personal experience. He is a Pakistani Christian who trained to be a maths lecturer. There was pressure on him to convert to Islam because university authorities said it was wrong for a Christian to have authority over Muslims. He refused and was charged under blasphemy laws, which carry a death sentence. 'The next day more than 5,000 students with pistols and daggers were searching for me. I was hidden in a church.' He fled to Australia in the 1980s.

Scot claimed he wasn't vilifying Islam, merely repeating received doctrines. Dr Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, political ally of Ken Livingstone, London's mayor and the new leader of its religious right, shows you can find priests who do indeed excuse wife battering as long as the husband 'beats her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive parts', the burning or stoning to death of men guilty of the 'abominable' crime of homosexuality and the rape of women who have opened 'the door for evils' by failing to 'maintain their modesty'.

Meanwhile, Catch the Fire could say with sincerity that it helped Muslim immigrants settle in Australia and found food, clothing and accommodation for them when they left transit camps.

The more he studied the evidence the more perplexed Judge Higgins became. He began by thinking the Christian ministers were guilty of inciting hatred, but at the same time as they were pouring scorn on Islam's tenets they were talking about the need to create a dialogue with Muslims. He was being asked to decide on the true message of holy books, a task beyond the power of most judges.

Not even the most strident supporter of limiting free speech could claim that the case had helped build a tolerant, multi-cultural Australia. The leaders of Catch the Fire received death threats and Muslim clerics and their lawyers were stalked. American born-again Christians and Saudi fundamentalists are watching the prosecution through narrowed eyes. Whatever the verdict, people who want to feel persecuted by the forces of the infidel will feel persecuted and become more convinced than ever that there was a giant conspiracy against their faith.

Amir Butler, executive director of the Australian Muslim Public Affairs Committee, was a supporter of laws against religious hatred but is disillusioned. 'At every major Islamic lecture I have attended since litigation began,' he said, 'there have been small groups of evangelical Christians, with notepads and pens, jotting down any comment that might later be used as evidence in the present case or presumably future cases.'

The evangelicals were mad and wanted to get even. But there was something more than that. Butler got to the heart of the difficulty of imposing censorship when he wrote in the Melbourne Age : 'If we believe our religion is the only way to heaven, then we must also affirm that all other paths lead to hell. If we believe our religion is true, then it requires us to believe others are false.'

Well, quite. To a devout Jew, what could be more hateful than Christianity's claims that Jesus was the son of God? To a devout Christian, what could be more hateful than Islam's claims that Jesus was only another prophet? To devout Jews, Christians, Muslims, and for that matter, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Jains, Bahais, Mormons and Moonies, what could be more hateful than athiests' claims that there are no gods and they should grow up? To the fundamentalist, anyone who recommends another path is sending people to hell.

People can't choose their skin colour, or their sex or their sexual orientation, which is why the racism, misogyny and homophobia the likes of Livingstone once opposed are so repellent. But a religion is a system of ideas like any other and must have its claims tested in the necessarily rough arguments of a free society. If people's sensibilities are offended, that's tough.

David Blunkett said last week that his proposed law wouldn't limit free debate. Sadiq Khan and other leading Muslim lawyers have built up an impressive dossier of evidence that 'Muslim' has become code for 'Paki' or 'wog' in the propaganda of British neo-fascism. If the BNP and others attack 'Muslims' rather than Asians they can't be prosecuted because there are laws against inciting racial hatred but not religious hatred.

All of this is true, but as the National Secular Society points out there are laws of incitement to violence and harassment which protect everyone. The question is, what would a law against incitement to religious hatred be used for? The optimistic answer is not much. Everyone in favour of censorship claims it couldn't possibly be used to gag the next Salman Rushdie. This is disingenuous. If incitement to religious hatred had been a crime at the time of the persecution of Rushdie, his enemies would certainly have tried to bring him to trial. Even if they had failed, the publicity would have made life harder for him and for the translators of The Satanic Verses who faced the possibility of being murdered for standing up for freedom of publication.

Anyone who believes the promises that no harm will come from censorship, should consider the history of pornography in Britain.

In 1857 the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Campbell, persuaded Parliament to limit free speech by passing the Obscene Publications Act. The Blunkett of his day was appalled that the Victorian pornography trade was growing without legal check in the Aldwych district of central London, which is now home of that model of modesty, the BBC World Service. MPs worried that great works of literature would be banned by Philistine civil servants and judges, but Campbell told them they had no need to fret.

His intention was to stop the 'sale of a poison more deadly than prussic acid'. Censorship would apply 'exclusively to works written for the single purpose of corrupting the morals of youth and of a nature calculated to shock the common feelings of decency in any well regulated mind.' Only hateful pornographers had anything to fear. His assurances were worthless. Dry guides on birth control were prohibited. The works of Emile Zola, Gustave Flaubert, James Joyce, D H Lawrence Jean-Paul Satre and even Daniel Defoe (for Moll Flanders ) couldn't be sold, while tens of thousands of authors and publishers censored themselves for more than a century.

After that experience, if you're relaxed about extending prohibition you should be careful about what you wish for because you will have no right to be dismayed by what you get.

"Aseity~ posted to that thread. I hope it helps. If even One person makes the effort to check the things I wrote, it may start them down the right road."

Thanks Gary.

"Al Qaeda is to terror what the Mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money, its goal is remaking the world and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere". --George W. Bush

A high profile trial which pits 'our' values against that of Islam, would be quite the wrong thing to do.

First, this is not a matter that can be decided by a judge. Further, judges are notorious for coming up with decisions that are against all sense. We may well jeopardise all, by putting all our eggs in a judge's basket.

If the case was made into a high profile type, then it will divide our society. Many Liberals will take the side of the Islamists and thus jeopardise our case. Besides, the Islamists will claim victimisation and being the underdog in a predominantly 'Christian' society. They will make good inroads with that arguement.

Even if we win, it will be a victory that will be for Islam, as they will say that they lost because of racism, or they are small in numbers etc etc. Besides they will appeal, and that gives riseto more propaganda and opportunities for mischief.

We do not want to fight in any war that is on the enemy's prepared grounds. We have all the advantages at the moment, in numbers and resources. By going to court, we level the playing field. Not a good idea.

It is far better for Rev Alan Clford to fight this on his own, a 'small' rural vicar against the big Muslim lobby groups funded by Saudi Arabia. If he wins, it will be a big victory. If he loses, he becomes a martyr and ofcourse appeals, giving rise to even greater outcry about Islamic tyrrany from all of us.

This is a long game and we have to think long.

`Two persons had been charged under Section 153A of the Indian Penal Code for publishing in a poster 24 Ayats of the Quran and stating that riots in India cannot be stopped so long as those Ayats remained in the Quran. All the 24 Ayats are included in the Writ Petition which had been filed in the Calcutta High Court, and which Justice Basak had adjudged. The metropolitan magistrate, Shri Z.S. Lohat, however, drew a contrary conclusion.
He pronounced on 31 July 1986, “With due regard, to the Holy Book of ‘Quran Majeed’, a close perusal of the Ayets shows that the same are harmful and teach hatred and are likely to create differences between Mohammedans on one hand and the remaining communities on the other.”15 -Calcutta Quran Petition http://voi.org/books/tcqp/index.htm

Tip:http://malaysiatoday.blogspot.com

I could keep silent no more... I had to drop a line of encouragement to the Vicar...

Message follows below:

Dear Rev. Dr. Clifford,

I am certain that over the past week that you have received many emails of support and encouragement from like-minded individuals 'round the globe. And while not the first to do so, I would be in violation of my own values if I failed to add my voice to the chorus.

In the months and years since 9/11 here in America, my countrymen and I have be targeted with a relentless propaganda campaign presenting Islam as a "religion of Peace". Even out poor, dunder-headed Commander-in-Chief has repeatedly parroted this patently false slogan. All of this has been received by the civil libertarians with great enthusiasm and ANY voice of dissent is condemned as being "insensitive" and "racist". I have also followed the major trend of Islamic accommodationism throughout most of Western civilization and not only share your views but am positively TERRIFIED at the prospects our free lands if the TRUTH of Islamo-fascism is not confronted and at the VERY LEAST, discussed in an open forum.

Please let me share with you a few details of my own circumstances, if I can be so bold. I live in Southeast Michigan, USA. We host, in the nearby suburb of Dearborn, Michigan the LARGEST Iraqi and Arabic population outside of the middle east! Recently, local mosques in the nearby town of Hamtramck (originally, a vigorous Polish Catholic neighborhood) has WON the approval of the city council to broadcast the call to prayer FIVE TIMES a day - publicly! And that, while the ringing of Matins and other church bells are restricted to very LIMITED, prescribed times - under penalty of DISTURBING THE PEACE! Now the relative artistic merits of church bells vs. a braying imam are a matter of taste, but to my thinking, if ONE religious disturbance is tolerated, than ALL religious disturbances should be EQUALLY tolerated!

Further, while I am certain that a number of secularists will seize upon this opportunity to condemn the Church and her message as intolerant, and even critical secularists here in America come under considerable criticism - if they dare to utter a word against the "religion of peace". I have been attacked and upbraided for my "intolerance" towards Islam, even branded a racist. And yet, I am to date unaware of what, if ANY race Islam is? And as to matters of prejudice, my wife is African-America, my daughter bi-racial, one of my closest friends is a Punjabi Sikh, my employer is a German Evangelical publisher and my closest professional associates are Japanese Shintoists and Buddhists, a South Korean Methodist, and a Chinese Taoist. My reverence and affection for each of these individuals and circumstances IS ENRICHED by their wonderful cultural and religious differences! Is THAT the expected reaction of a bigot??? No, I have reached the conclusion, that having grown up during the Cold War, that there ARE ideologies that are dangerous, that threaten human dignity and that seek to imprison the souls, minds and bodies of those who dare to challenge them. And I believe that Islam is one of those ideologies. To merely wrap up violence, slavery, subjugation and genocide in a mantel of "monotheism", thereby granting it a status above any critique is intellectual dishonesty. These are NOT Presbyterians having a Bake Sale to earn money for Habitat for Humanity, not are they even to be compared to much- ridiculed Promise Keepers - no, this is an ideology that has engendered a Death Cult for millions of it's ignorant adherents. To my thinking - and as previously mentioned, this is not a POPULAR view - to accord such a belief system status as
a MAJOR RELIGION, we must also elevate the late-lamented followers of Marshall Applewhite and the Jimmy Jones' Peoples Temple to the status of legitimate religion - a leap of faith that I am unwilling to take!

I wish you well in your upcoming trials, and while I have little faith in a weak-kneed legal system that is eager to cave in to any external pressure to prove how ENLIGHTENED it is, I hope that your own courage will prick the conscience of a few who might have otherwise kept silent.

Please let me know if there is any small donation I might make to your defense.

+++ In Memoriam Kim Sun-il +++

Good letter Scorpius!

In this war that has been forced on the West, the whole concept of multi-culturalism has been called into question. Your letter indicates that there is much to cherish in a multi-cultural society.

The difficulty arises when one segment of such a society refuses to play by the rules. If we do not have victory soon, then the war on Islamism will, sooner or later, begin to impact on the multi-cultural society that we have. All will be lost, because of the fanaticism of Islam as an ideology.

I would much rather see the expulsion of Islam from the multi-cultural club of the West, as Islam has broken the rules of membership.