Germany to deny visas for Islamic conference

News from Germany:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=661

http://www.dw-world.de/english/

http://www.faz.com/IN/

http://www.germany-info.org/

http://www.insideeurope.com/html/germany.html

Belgium, France, Spain, Germany, The Netherlands:

http://www.expatica.com/

EUROPE:

http://www.euobserver.com/

http://www.eubusiness.com/

http://theeuropenews.net/

http://www.eupolitix.com/EN/

"Fundamentalists and hate preachers have no place in Germany," he said.

Ahhhhhh... how often do we want to hear words like these, but often only to have the "one sided" laws against free speech applied to those who criticise these contempuous groups.

Keep it up Germany

Yes, I agree - Good for you Germany.

I await the response by German muslims...

Moose

Free speech is a two-way street. Islam has silenced its critics through the intimidating us of violence and other the use of coercive tactics for many centuries.

In Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, free speech is denied for all those that oppose Islam in any form, including private worship or private conversation. Germany and the West don't go so far as to deny free speech to Muslims in so far as they don't advocate the overthrow of the government, the institution of Islamic law, the use of violence, and so on, that would disturb peace and public order. Such prohibitions would be applied toward any non-Muslim group that would make such attempts.

Thus, the Muslim claim "one-sided laws" are being applied against them is a false and hypocritical attempt to manipulate public opinion.

Do the Qur'an, hadith, and sira qualify as "justifying terrorism"? Are there any limitlessly violent calls to make war on all Infidels, not in "defensive" wars as that word is understood in the West, but in wars to spread Islam? Is there perhaps an example, a role-model, of someone who engaged in, and suggested to his followers, that they terrorize those who refused to become Muslims themselves? If so, should there not at least be a discussion of whether those texts should be banned outright. It won't happen, the banning, but the mere discussion is important. The more people know about the killing of the 600-800 hostages of the Bani Qurayza, the more they know about particular passages in the Qur'an, the more they learn about the hadith, and the more they reflect on what constant repetition of those texts, dinned into young minds, memorized without comprehension, and then what it must be like to grow up in a closed society that has Islam and nothing but Islam -- well, that has to be stepped up.

Never mind some of those "experts" on Islam like Gilles "Wrong Again" Kepel. Kepel, who has an unbroken record of misjudgments and predictions proved false (his last book, in 2000, confidently asserted that Islamic terrorism was on the wane, and would not come back; in his new book, he asserts that there is nothing to fear from the islamic communities in Europe, and that they will naturally "moderate" over time and provide a model for Islam elsewhere -- fat chance, and in any case, who in Europe wants to take that chance, or should be expected to? Kepel is essentially a sociologist (you know, with a nice picture of a "boucherie musulmane" on the cover to show how nicely Islam is fitting into France), and not given to study of the Shari'a, nor is there any evidence, other than anecdotal, that a few Muslims in France essentially jettison Islam. So what? Should European civilization, should the indigenous non-Muslims of Europe risk their futures on the fact that "some" Muslims in Europe are less fervent in their faith -- even if we were to ignore the considerable evidence of the "Manchurian candidate" phenomenon, where a previously-tepid or dormant belief, like certain kinds of viruses, suddenly flares up. Kepel doesn't really take the tenets of slam as seriously, in fact, as they deserve. He seems to think that a move out of the hothouse of the MIddle East (and he pays no attention to Islam in Pakistan, Indonesia, or elsewhere) to Europe will, because of proximity to Infidels (and what is it about that proximity that will modify Islam, when one has example after example, as with the Turks in Germany, that they become more, not less, fervent in their beliefs outside of Turkey?

What is most disturbing is not Kepel's platitudinous and essentially blind belief that American "support" for Israel -- i.e. the "why do they hate us" school of nonsense that ignores the tenets of Islam -- creates terrorism. No, it is his own willingness to inveigle Europeans into not worrying overmuch about the islamization of their own countries, much less to do something about it by removing all those Muslim non-citizens, and even Muslim citizens, who possess not merely an alien, but an essentially immutably hostile creed, from their midst. Uninterested, apparently, in the survival of his own civilization (that is, Western civilization), Kepel has gone so native as to see Europe only as a place where the dilemmas and problems of Islam may somehow be solved -- and a "new" Islam will come into being, that can be a model for Islam elsewhere.

In this respect, Kepel echoes, in a wierd way, George Bush, who appears to think that in Iraq he can create through "democracy" which "all people yearn for" (nonsense), a "Light Unto the Muslim Nations." That foolish Wolfowitz, whose knowledge of Islam comes from two sources: 1) the time he spent in Jakarata as the American ambassador (and of course known to be Jewish, which caused all his Indonesian interlocutors to modify their pitch in order to please the powerful ambassador), possibly the worst way to learn about Islam (talk about meeting unrepresentative people, and hearing all sorts of soothing talk) and 2) the pillow talk from the nice Arab lady who helped push him into believing, as she and all sorts of Arab "reformers" are, that American power could create a "democracy" in Iraq, and American money and soldiers could be expended in this completely unproven idea that a "democratic" Iraq would help to lessen the threat from Islam. The threat from Islam will only be lessened when 1) Muslim migration is stopped, and Muslim attempts at Da'wa made more, rather than less, difficult in the Bilad al-kufr 2) when Muslims are deprived of major weaponry 3) when the sums received from oil sales are diminished through taxation, investment in other energy sources and in conservation 3) Muslims themselves are forced, by well-informed Infidels no longer willing to accept taqiyya/kitman/apologetics, to recognize, to confront, the political, economic, intellectual, and moral failures of Islamic societies that are rooted in the tenets of Islam itself.

Kepel, so indifferent to the future of European civilization, so solicitous of Islam and how Muslims in Europe will save Islam elsewhere, is an intellectual quisling, to the civilization that produced and educated him. He really does not see, cannot see, has never seen, has always understated or failed to comprehend, the threat. Less sociology (inviting Muslims to dinner, to get "their real opinions," that sort of field-work that mimics Tom Friedman's inside-dopesterism, is far less valuable than looking at Muslim textbooks, the contents of the khutbas, the contents of Qur'an and hadith and sira -- for these are the immutable texts, written and oral, of mass brainwashing). Yes, a a cheerleader for Eurabia, proven wrong with each book (indeed, no sooner does one of his books appear, than things happen in the world that immediately show him up -- but he is never deterred, and gets up after every pratfall).

The courage that incorrigible misundestanding or stupidiy provide. Extraordinary.

Hugh has pointed out a troubling observation: the failure of George W. Bush to acknowledge, or perhaps even recognize, the real threat of Islam and the continued presence of the compromised Wolfowitz as his adviser.

Surely someone can get the message to him.

epg:

GWB "gets it".

Political necessity dictates that he awaits his second term to come out with guns ablazin'.

CGW~ that has also been my assessment for some time. Lets both hope it proves correct. Bush, at least, signed his Form 180; Kerry has yet to do so.

6 more weeks, and then

4 More Years!

Now there's hasty scramble, did our German friends
not bother to read the 'small print' or something?? Approve of belated moves but nearly a case of 'Too Little, Too Late....'

One way to stop the spread of fanaticism is through the banning of the Quran.
Many people would howl at this suggestion, but think about this........................

Is the Quran not used as a handbook to many for the death and destruction that we currently see all around the world?

Under most democratic countries, their court systems are similar to ours, so why not challenge the material on the same criteria used in "Maryland vs Paladin Enterprises"

This was the case in which a man used the book "Hitman" as a guide to commit murder. It was used as a step by step guide and in the end, Paladin, paid an out of court settlement and stopped the publication of the book.

Therefore since the Quran is consistantly used and quoted as a guideline for the acts of terrorism we now see, could the publishing of this book, also not be challenged??????

Just a thought.....................

susan_b said, “One way to stop the spread of fanaticism is through the banning of the Quran.
Many people would howl at this suggestion, but think about this........................”

Welcome back Susan, nice to see you posting again.

Susan might have a point. Here in Canada a few short years ago a gentleman whose name escapes me was buying ad space in various newspapers and publishing verses out of the Old Testament that seemed to advocate the killing of homosexuals. I believe there was a human rights case brought against him and he was also threatened with “hate speech” charges. I would imagine that every time some Muslim preacher stands up in a mosque and quotes the Koran in ways we don’t like, he would be open to prosecution. Now if we can only get our politically correct governments to do so.

GWB "gets it". -CGW

I hope & pray, & sense that W will do the right thing in his second term. Perhaps that's why he's losing the US muslim vote?

Americans will not - ultimately - tolerate shariah law in any form, unlike Canada. The lefties can shrill their illogical spew, but ultimately, we as a people, like our Freedoms. I agree with Diane Feinstein, we need to accept immigrants more cautiously -- and why &%!$# not? What the heck are we waiting for?

Thanks Canuck,
It was so frustrating to read things here and not be able to reply and I missed you guys!!

Also, back n the 70's there were several court cases involving the Klan and the material they would distribute at schools. This was ultimately banned as it was sited as "inflammatory and qualified as hate speech". It also called for the "death of jews" in the pamphlets.

If you Google "hate speech lawsuites", Findlaw will state numerous cases which can be applied, the problem is, once again, we have become such politicly correct nations, that people are afraid to take on this problem for fear of being run thrown to the Liberal Tunnel Visioned Media and forever being labeled as raceist themselves, when what it really comes down to is self defense.

Also, I'm going to take this a step further......

The only way to challenge it would be to challenge if the Quran is a true holy text? or a handbook for murder?

I sited this before, but take for a moment the case of "Maryland vs Paladin Enterprises".
Paladin published the book "Hitman", which was then used as a step by step guide to commit murder.

It went before the Supreme Court, the arguement used, was this was not protected free speech, as it was used as a guideline to commit murder and was used as a step by step guide to do so.

Paladin settled out of court and agreed to stop publishing the book.

Under the definition of religion, you have the following: system of belief in, wordhip of a supernatural power or God. Pious, conscientious.

Then under Pious....devout, righteous and under Conscientious....scrupulous, obedient to dictates of conscience.

My arguement is as follows:
If terrorist use the Quran as a guide to commit acts of murder and terrorism, does it not also fall under the ruling of the Paladin case, since in the Quran there are rules about how and when to kill the infidel, which in essence, takes away any idea of piousness, conscience and scruples, therefore taking away the idea of religious text and becomeing more a guideline for waging war?

And if it does lose the status of religious text, doesn't the whole concept of Islam then fall away as a protected religion? Since of course this is the book that guides them?

And don't Muslim's themselves often point out that the Quran and Islam are more than a religion, it is the rules for which they MUST live by?

Germany has not and will never learn the lesson that history teaches us..Let hate speech spread
and there will be a huge price to pay.
They pretend islam is a peaceful religion,they don't even acknowledge the rape and destruction in their own cities,perpetrated by who else?
The peace loving islamic members of their new multicultural EUrabia.You get the distinct feeling watching Euronews that their rooting for Mohammed-aka-Satan and his motley crew of cutthroats,rapist's and wannabe's.
GOD BLESS ALL HERE.

i like the comments of susan_b. it would seem that we are living in a time of theological examination -- and such examination requires judgments on the part of individuals. however, it does seem like a difficult dilemma for the united states to come out with a policy against a religion. such a move runs counter to our instincts to maintain church/state divide. adjudicating theological disagreements is not the territory of the state. oh sure, little groups like the jim jones people or branch davidians are easier to handle because they are so small and the multitude easily concludes they are bonkers. but what of theological analyses of large religions with centuries of history? policies springing from such analyses will open the door for taking religion to the temporal realm -- it is true islam has already done this. question is: must we cross that line? interesting dilemma indeed.

one note on wolfowitz: it seems that someone somewhere would have had to come up with similar strategies to wolfowitz & co. in order for the u.s. to deal with current threats. i find that the neocons are the natural progression of a trajectory of u.s. foreign policy that began with washington and continued through monroe, t. roosevelt, truman, and reagan. it may be true that the neocons do or did not understand islam as well as arguably they should have, but their approach to american foreign policy and dealing with aggressive and lethal threats is not new -- rather, it lies deep in the nature of many americans, it was taught to us by our ancestors and forefathers.

There is actually a precedence of sorts for what susan_b is suggesting. I don’t know if any of you recall the Story of the Thuggee cult of India. They were a religion/cult that supplemented their income by robbing and murdering travelers. The British ‘suppressed’ (wiped out) this cult in the 1830’s. Of course they didn’t have the same political restraints that we have. It is interesting to note that this cult consisted of both Hindu and Muslim members.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Thuggee

O.T. Another good article on the Thuggees

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1998/vo14no15/vo14no15_unmasked.htm

Age does not necessarily ensure wisdom, maturity, mental clarity, & the ability to understand the whole picture. Followers of Islam still dream through Islamic fairytales & fantasies of the 7th Century world. Muslims have grown accustomed to believing they already have all the answers in the Koran, no sense reforming the book. Muslims understand the content of the Koran as fact.

Non-Muslims are aware, the world is dynamic & evolving, and no abstract (of 7th Century insight) is able to keep up with current times & ideas, wisdom, maturity, & mental clarity. Old beliefs are, many times, later disproved with the introduction of new knowledge & awareness. An article just off the press becomes old rather quickly. All facts in the article can be proven false, a short time after publication.

This is the reason, Islam will never be allowed to dominate the West. We know their primitive ideas. Know everything about the 7th Century, & you will understand Islam. Muslims have not changed; you only need to look at how their Islamic societies operate. They dare not create new rules; their Allah may be displeased.

We are heading toward a crucial time in history. This whole Muslim race may need to be converted or destroyed. Job # 1 is to get them out of Western lands. Muslims require; Sharia Law must cover all countries, one way or another. They are not open to negotiation, & are not able to see any other vision for our future world.

The Western world will wait for the day, to respond to Islam, for the last time. A great task is approaching. Understand, your Muslim neighbors are all part of the larger plot.

The more you read about the despicable regime in Iran, the more you realize where Islam intends to take the world. At this critical time, the Islamic threat is not realized by all Westerners. This must soon change, then Westerners will understand, they must destroy Islam before Islam destroys everything our forefathers built.

The war or terror is the beginning of the war on Islam.

Age does not necessarily ensure wisdom, maturity, mental clarity, & the ability to understand the whole picture. Followers of Islam still dream through Islamic fairytales & fantasies of the 7th Century world. Muslims have grown accustomed to believing they already have all the answers in the Koran, no sense reforming the book. Muslims understand the content of the Koran as fact.

Non-Muslims are aware, the world is dynamic & evolving, and no abstract (of 7th Century insight) is able to keep up with current times & ideas, wisdom, maturity, & mental clarity. Old beliefs are, many times, later disproved with the introduction of new knowledge & awareness. An article just off the press becomes old rather quickly. All facts in the article can be proven false, a short time after publication.

This is the reason, Islam will never be allowed to dominate the West. We know their primitive ideas. Know everything about the 7th Century, & you will understand Islam. Muslims have not changed; you only need to look at how their Islamic societies operate. They dare not create new rules; their Allah may be displeased.

We are heading toward a crucial time in history. This whole Muslim race may need to be converted or destroyed. Job # 1 is to get them out of Western lands. Muslims require; Sharia Law must cover all countries, one way or another. They are not open to negotiation, & are not able to see any other vision for our future world.

The Western world will wait for the day, to respond to Islam, for the last time. A great task is approaching. Understand, your Muslim neighbors are all part of the larger plot.

The more you read about the despicable regime in Iran, the more you realize where Islam intends to take the world. At this critical time, the Islamic threat is not realized by all Westerners. This must soon change, then Westerners will understand, they must destroy Islam before Islam destroys everything our forefathers built.

The war or terror is the beginning of the war on Islam.

Age does not necessarily ensure wisdom, maturity, mental clarity, & the ability to understand the whole picture. Followers of Islam still dream through Islamic fairytales & fantasies of the 7th Century world. Muslims have grown accustomed to believing they already have all the answers in the Koran, no sense reforming the book. Muslims understand the content of the Koran as fact.

Non-Muslims are aware, the world is dynamic & evolving, and no abstract (of 7th Century insight) is able to keep up with current times & ideas, wisdom, maturity, & mental clarity. Old beliefs are, many times, later disproved with the introduction of new knowledge & awareness. An article just off the press becomes old rather quickly. All facts in the article can be proven false, a short time after publication.

This is the reason, Islam will never be allowed to dominate the West. We know their primitive ideas. Know everything about the 7th Century, & you will understand Islam. Muslims have not changed; you only need to look at how their Islamic societies operate. They dare not create new rules; their Allah may be displeased.

We are heading toward a crucial time in history. This whole Muslim race may need to be converted or destroyed. Job # 1 is to get them out of Western lands. Muslims require; Sharia Law must cover all countries, one way or another. They are not open to negotiation, & are not able to see any other vision for our future world.

The Western world will wait for the day, to respond to Islam, for the last time. A great task is approaching. Understand, your Muslim neighbors are all part of the larger plot.

The more you read about the despicable regime in Iran, the more you realize where Islam intends to take the world. At this critical time, the Islamic threat is not realized by all Westerners. This must soon change, then Westerners will understand, they must destroy Islam before Islam destroys everything our forefathers built.

The war or terror is the beginning of the war on Islam.

Age does not necessarily ensure wisdom, maturity, mental clarity, & the ability to understand the whole picture. Followers of Islam still dream through Islamic fairytales & fantasies of the 7th Century world. Muslims have grown accustomed to believing they already have all the answers in the Koran, no sense reforming the book. Muslims understand the content of the Koran as fact.

Non-Muslims are aware, the world is dynamic & evolving, and no abstract (of 7th Century insight) is able to keep up with current times & ideas, wisdom, maturity, & mental clarity. Old beliefs are, many times, later disproved with the introduction of new knowledge & awareness. An article just off the press becomes old rather quickly. All facts in the article can be proven false, a short time after publication.

This is the reason, Islam will never be allowed to dominate the West. We know their primitive ideas. Know everything about the 7th Century, & you will understand Islam. Muslims have not changed; you only need to look at how their Islamic societies operate. They dare not create new rules; their Allah may be displeased.

We are heading toward a crucial time in history. This whole Muslim race may need to be converted or destroyed. Job # 1 is to get them out of Western lands. Muslims require; Sharia Law must cover all countries, one way or another. They are not open to negotiation, & are not able to see any other vision for our future world.

The Western world will wait for the day, to respond to Islam, for the last time. A great task is approaching. Understand, your Muslim neighbors are all part of the larger plot.

The more you read about the despicable regime in Iran, the more you realize where Islam intends to take the world. At this critical time, the Islamic threat is not realized by all Westerners. This must soon change, then Westerners will understand, they must destroy Islam before Islam destroys everything our forefathers built.

The war or terror is the beginning of the war on Islam.

Sincere apologies for the posts 4x, this old temporary computer crashed again…

We're happy your back Susan_b!
We need your insightful thinking.
Ban it and Burn it!

Artist,

I know who you are...........(kisses)

Susan:

E-mail me - who is DA???

Susan-

I agree with you . . .may I add that the material that needs to be banned is not limited to the Quoran alone.

It appears that many children of the islamic faith are taught in private schools - many using texts that contain references to hateful rhetoric.

I recently came across a piece of mail that identified the specific instance of Saudi education (in S.A. as well as abroad).

I am pasting a copy of the information here:

******

"It's said that no one is born hating.

True enough, no one is born hating.

But too many are taught to hate.

It's bad enough when the teaching comes from the home. It's even worse when a government teaches hate through its schools.

Shockingly, that's the case today in Saudi Arabia.

A comprehensive new study of Saudi textbooks reveals that anti-Western, anti-Christian, and anti-Semitic views are taught daily to millions of Saudi children.

Are some of the same books also being used in Saudi-funded schools elsewhere, including right here in the U.S.? It's worth exploring.

The textbooks cover grades 1 through 10 and include a wide range of subjects, from literature to math. Believe it or not, these abhorrent ideas about the West, Christians, and Jews are found in all the different classes.

Saudi Arabia presents itself as a friend of America. We should tell the Saudis that real friends don't teach hatred and intolerance.

To read the study, log on to ajc.org. "

I am sickened that this information isn't in every paper and on every television newscast.

The Saudi Education Minisry also operate eighteen international schools -- one in the USA! For me, it is unthinkable that this type of 'education' can take place legally on US soil, but it does.

Petition your Congressmen and Senators - if you don't know who to contact, here is a great link (http://yahoo.capwiz.com/y/dbq/officials/)

Urge them to sign on to the Congressional resolutions condemning the hatred taught in Saudi textbooks! The Resolution, S.Con.Res.14/H.Con.Res.242, calls on the Saudi government to "reform its education curriculum in a manner that promotes tolerance, develops civil society, and encourages functionality in the global economy."
********

I have to assume that the hateful rhetoric contained in school books is not limited to islamic children of saudi desent.

This resolution is only a start, but small steps can make a difference.

Qor'an, Qoran, Koran spell it as you will.I sense an ill wind gathering on the horizon.We in this country are headed toward the killing of our own goose ,the one that lays the golden egg.Our own over protective defense of any threat to our civil liberties is the very chink in our armor that these pond scum can hide behind. If our Government had the will,but they don't ,that hate filled rag could be banned.But of course that can't happen because no one in this country can be denied their right to religious expression.In this country a book can only be banned if it's deemed offensive,and I don't think The ACLU finds anything offensive about a publication that embraces and promotes hatred and murder.That is as long as it isn't being promoted by a Christian or a Jew.Maybe some of the more seasond citizens out there remember a story book titled "Little Black Sambo", try finding a copy today.