Spencer on rape and jihad

And here's a little bit about how a neighbor of Sudan, Egypt, looks at us:

http://techcentralstation.com/092404E.html

Certainly we can add the girls from Australia, Europe, Africa, and the Americas that are considered appropriate subjects for rape as they are "not appropriately dressed. What about Muslim women that are subjected to forced marriages and forced sex within marriage? As has been pointed out by posters on JW, Mohammad invented the rules of jihad as a justification for his murderous rampages that also included rape and pillage that, unfortunately, as used as justification for Muslims' sexual behaviors today.

As the father of a 13 year old girl (and she is everything to me).... I feel disgusted to the stomach knowing that Roberts article here is still the broad minded view of Muslims....many of whom are only waiting for the time to "re-live" the Muhammedan conquests, and even many more already treating our women like whores, by raping them.

We had similar rape cases here in Australia not long ago...one of the young "Muslim" males involved said " I didnt know that rape was against the law in Australia"......and all the way through the trial....the Victims, and their families were taunted, by name calling, such as sluts, whores, bitches etc.....and not just by the perpetrators bu also by the family members of these vile creatures.........nice breed of people.

Islam is NOT reformable. It can only be done away with.Period

YES Mr Spencer, it is time such questions were asked of the likes of Tariq Ramadan and other leading lights of Islam. BBC actually forgot its usual PC Pro Islam stand and said 'there is anger against Muslims in Liverpool [town of U.K Hostage].

Dear Joe Bananas,

I live in France...don't think of sending your dear daughter here because young Muslims regularly perpetrate what are called "les tournantes", which are gang rapes. The victims are both Muslim and non-Muslim girls. The press, naturally, blames these gang rapes on "poverty", but isn't it funny?, these gang rapes are never perpetrated by Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, or adherents of any other religion. In the media, they are even defended sometimes as "rites of passage" for young Muslims.

Hey, when you're a dhimmi, you've got to be a dhimmi all the way!!!

G'day,

Pelayo.

There is now something more frightening here in Australia when it come to identifying these Muslims.....they are now given "Aliases"....yes so instead of Ahmed Mustafa, they are reported by their alias in the media..and of course the Alias is something like...."Darren Hutchinson and his accuse are before the court on charges of rape".....and so forth.

Islam's greatest triumph so far is its succes at blinding the majority of people to its true nature.....and the Left just keep on taking it up all in the name of their ideology.

I think that the Socialist in France (and it is in Frances nature to play with the Devil) are using Muslims and Islam as a tool for their broader goals of neutralising and/or eliminating the Christian- Judeo influence that has been the foundation of Europe's prinicples of decency and Laws.......all for an A-moral utopian world.

Dear Joe Bananas,

You have hit upon one of the most important aspects of Dhimmitude in France. You have no idea how many times I hear "Why is this happening to us?" "WHO let this happen to us?" "Why did THEY let this happen to us?" This is really the heart of the matter. The Islamification of France is no accident. In a centralized state such as France, especially, there are certainly no "mistakes" or accidents of this magnitude. The Islamification of France is an act of someone's will, but the question, of course, is "whose?", and also, "WHY?"

So many English speakers think of the French Revolution as something akin to, perhaps, the American Revolution, and take at face value the slogan "liberty, equality, fraternity". What most people around the world don't realize is that the French Revolution represented the very first totalitarian, anti-Christian ideology, and is an ideology just as much as Nazism or Communism was. And the crazy thing is...this is still the ruling ideology in France. True, France was a Catholic country once, the best, in fact, the "Eldest Daughter of the Church", and France has still produced great saints, even in the 19th and 20th centuries, after the Revolution. But you must understand that France is ruled by people who have hijacked Judeo-Christian civilization, and who are dedicated to stamping out Christianity. In other words, they want the civilization, but they want to have it without the Christianity. And they are convinced that they CAN have it...and they are going to SHOW us this by letting in the followers of Islam, whom they hope will do their dirty work. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", right? The elite in France consider Islam their ALLY against Christian civilization...and they want to show themselves that you can have a great civilization without the Christianity...and what better way to do that than to demonstrate that the great values of French secularism can be adopted by the perennial enemies of Christians, the Muslim...

When you see Chirac, de Villepin, Raffarin, and the rest, remember that, all protestations to the side, they are radical anti-Christians, who worship nothing but the secularism as embodied in the "French Republic"...ans always remember that the French Republic was modeled (is modeled) on the Roman Republic, the premiere pagan society.

Thanks for your observation...

I have checked two online translations of the Quran and neither contain what I would construe as permission to rape.

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/4.htm

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura4.htm

Is this because of the translation or is the quote lifted out of context?

from what source is the account of the jewish massacre?

Are not the Darfur rapes primarily rapes of muslims by muslims? Rapes are an atrocity common to all cultures, are they not? I am not sure it is a part of the violent jihad...covert or be raped? I don't get it.

Conversely, consider the case of a muslim girl who was raped in Pakistan: a "tribal elder" told the girl's brothers to go rape the man who did it and his sister (which they did.) Imagine when Sharia is enacted in France or Sweden... the next time a gang of Mohamedans rapes a girl, her brothers will get to rape the sisters of all the perps! LOL. Thus does Islam bring us back to the Stone Age, when a woman was little more than a sperm bank, the sole possession of their closest male relative.

I can't understand what makes a man, a muslim man, just forget about the love he has for his precious daughters when they are married away.... it is amazing what a "washed" brain can accept.

I have some good news for any Muslim (or otherwise) that touches my daughters: he's going to meet Mohamed and Allah VERY SOON after that. I don't know about the legal system in Australia, England, or France, but here in America you only need one out of twelve jurors to go your way to win an acquital. The more serious the crime, the more the system gives the accused the benefit of doubt. I'll take my chances in a murder trial anyday over letting some punk get the same benefit in a rape trial.... I'll geld, skin, bone, and (de-)gut him while he's still alive, and if he is a Muslim, I'll film it and get the whole thing into cyberspace before I turn myself in. Let's see if they like to sell copies of that on DVD in the markets of Baghdad.

Kirk:

You might want to e-mail Spencer (director@jihadwatch.org) with your question. I'm sure he can point you to the appropriate sources.

Are you the same Kirk that Mahmoud called "Captain Kirk who mutinied" from a few months ago?

Many muslims argue that there are no tenets in the Quran that allow for rape of slaves or captured women and that this goes against the taechings of mohammed.

However they like to say that these where added 200 years after Mohammeds death in the Hadiths. Well the hadiths of Mohammed where gathered and put together as an "authoritive collection" of the traditions of mohammed by Al-Bukhari 200 years later( 811-876).

For some reason most muslims are trying to say that they do not attribute the hadiths to the teachings of Mohammed when it comes to rape of slaves and yet muslims are known to spend more time reading hadiths then the Suras` in the quran.

So which is it?

JWers:

This will be posted on multiple threads and periodically for the next few days, so I apologize in advance for the repetition.

Susan B and I are compiling a list of e-mail addresses for JWers/DWers who might wish to contact each other personally. Once your name is on the list, if someone wants to contact you, you will first be contacted by Susan who will obtain your authorization before giving out your e-mail address to the individual who requests it. So far we've had a pretty good response to our previous posts but there are a lot of familiar names missing! If you'd like to join our contact list, send your info (be sure to include your JW screenname so we know who you are) to susan_b356@yahoo.com.

CGW

Thank you Robert.

Kirk, Mackie has answered your question. All Muslims have to do is look to the example set by Muhammed himself to justify rape.

E. Michael Jones at http://www.culturewars.com has written that modernity is rationalized lust. So Islam must be spiritualized lust..

cassandra

My dear "Kirk,"

You say: "I have checked two online translations of the Quran and neither contain what I would construe as permission to rape.

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/4.htm"

This one says at verse 24: "Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess." "Those whom your right hands possess" is an Arabic locution for slaves. So the Qur'an is permitting men to have sex with slave girls. This is not permission to rape as such, but the consent of the slave is nowhere mentioned.

You also cite http://www.submission.org/suras/sura4.htm. This one says for the same verse: "Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you."

This is a completely fanciful translation. The Arabic is "ma malakat aymanukum," which is "those whom your right hands possess," or "those whom you rightfully possess." Pickthall, a Muslim translator, has it "those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Ali, another Muslim translator, has it "those whom your right hands possess." Shakir, yet another Muslim translator, renders it "those whom your right hands possess."

You ask, "Is this because of the translation or is the quote lifted out of context?"

I used Dawood's translation because it is clearest in English. But search around and you will see that it is virtually unanimous tradition that "those whom your right hands possess" equals "slave girls." As for the context, it is precisely about those whom one may have sex with, and those with whom one may not. So I used the verse properly.

You ask, "from what source is the account of the jewish massacre?"

As I said in the article, it's from Ibn Ishaq. I used "The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah," translated by Alfred Guillaume and available from many Islamic bookstores. You can find the quotes I used in the article on pages 468 and 469.

You ask: "Are not the Darfur rapes primarily rapes of muslims by muslims?"

Yes. As I noted in the article, they are rapes of Muslims by Muslims who consider them insufficiently Muslim.

You ask: "Rapes are an atrocity common to all cultures, are they not?"

Yes. I have never contended otherwise.

You ask: "I am not sure it is a part of the violent jihad...covert or be raped? I don't get it."

I never say that "co[n]vert or be raped" is part of jihad. I say that in jihad warfare, women are taken captive and raped. This is a constant of Islamic history going back to Muhammad's day. Prove me wrong.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer
Director, Jihad Watch

Mr. Spencer:

I do not profess to be an Islamic scholar nor an apologist for Islam. But, the verses cited refer to rules governing "marriage" and I would read that in the context of 7th century marriage.

It may be the case that rape of women captured in wars is a constant in Islamic history.

Can muslims then point to the work of Milosovic and state the same thing about the western world? Do Muslims equate the mess at Abu-Ghraib as rape conducted in a time of war? Do they assign blame for this activity on the proliferation of pornography in the West?

Rape in a time of war is common to all cultures throughout recorded history, is it not? Rape it is quite common, war or no, in all cultures.

Again I say, I don't get it. Are you stating that rape is part and parcel of Islam? If it is based on the Quranic verses you cite, I don't quite see it, and I think to interpret it that way is a stretch, at least based on the on-line translations I have available.

Is jihadi-rape prescribed in the hadiths, as another reader suggests?

Thank you for the reference on the massacre. But one more question. If they killed the male Jews in this massacre, what was the polically correct thing to do with the surviving women, and children, in the 7th century? What would my Viking ancestors have done?

My dear "Kirk,"

What I am saying is that the example of Muhammad allows for this kind of behavior to be perpetuated, and this is a bad thing. Yes, there is rape everywhere. But nowhere else does it have the magnificent sanction of a prophet's example. This is another element of Islam that calls for reform.

Are you assuming, then, that the slave girls had to consent before being taken by their masters? I suggest you study some Islamic history.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

The ugly secret in the American armed forces
==============================================
By Gregory Kaffir

Women in the U.S. armed services are increasingly at danger -- not from foreign terrorists, but from men in the U.S. armed services.

The deaths of four Army wives in six weeks this summer at Fort Bragg, N.C., allegedly at the hands of their soldier husbands, might be an aberration. But the number of rapes, sexual assaults and sexual harassment against women soldiers in the military has reached the level of an epidemic, according to Terri Spahr Nelson of Oxford, Ohio.

The author of For Love of Country: Confronting Rape and Sexual Harassment in the U.S. Military, Nelson documents a problem that ought to give pause to women considering a military career.

It is estimated that two-thirds of female service members experience unwanted, uninvited sexual behavior in the military," she writes. "To exemplify the magnitude of this problem, consider what would happen if the U.S. armed forces were faced with a problem that affected two-thirds of the male service members. One would hope that there would be an immediate call to action, a stand-down and nationwide attention to the problem."

Rampant abuse
Sexual harassment by servicemen is not a new problem. In the 1990s the Tailhook scandal -- in which drunken Navy pilots formed a kind of sexual molestation gauntlet -- and widespread sexual abuse reported at the Aberdeen Proving Ground brought the issue national attention and promises of reform.

But the problem has not gone away. Indeed, there's reason to believe it's gotten worse in recent years, according to Nelson.

"The problem of sexual harassment and sexual assault in the U.S. military are epidemic," she writes. "Reports of abuse continue to flood in as the problem continues to emerge. Surveys of women in the military tell a story of rampant sexual abuse and harassment by their male counterparts amid concerns that the issues are being minimized or ignored by military leaders."

Some of the most damning data comes from the Department of Defense itself. Although the first-person accounts in For Love of Country are gut-wrenching, perhaps the most poignant parts of the book are the raw numbers. A 1995 study by the Defense Department found 87 percent of women had received "unwanted sexual attention."

Nor are women the only American soldiers being victimized by their comrades in arms. The same study found 40 percent of men in the armed forces also had received "unwanted sexual attention."

That attention isn't limited to the ass-pinching and boys-will-be-boys humor celebrated by popular shows such as M*A*S*H. In just one year, the Defense Department found, large numbers of American troops were attacked -- by fellow American troops.

"Specifically, 29 percent of women in the Marines, 38 percent of women in the Army, 6 percent of women in the Navy and 4 percent of women in the Air Force and Coast Guard were victims of rape or attempted rape in one year alone," Nelson writes.

As in the society at large, Nelson finds social and institutional hurdles that prevent many cases of rape and sexual victimization from ever being reported. Many suffer in silent shame.

But even worse, when women report attacks by fellow soldiers, the official response by military authorities is often less than supportive. When prosecution does result, almost all the accused perpetrators walk away free.

A study by the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense measured conviction rates for rapes reported to military criminal investigation offices in 1994-96.

"Another startling fact is that over 95 percent of the accused rapists in the Navy and Marines in 1992 were found not guilty of the alleged rapes and not convicted of the crimes," Nelson writes.

Nelson isn't interested in diminishing the armed services; she's a decorated Army veteran. But neither is she one to allow an injustice go unremarked.

"Yes, the United States Marine Corps issued metal bars (just like they issue boots, M-16 rifles and helmets), one per room to the women in the barracks," Nelson writes. "Presumably, the metal bars were not intended to be used as weapons for self-defense, although we wonder how marine leaders would have responded to an unconscious male marine on a woman's bed with a bump on his head and his skivvies around his ankles."

interesting discussion on france between pelayo & joe bananas

it does seem that france's brazen shift to appeasing the jihad not only reeks of dancing with the devil, it could have unfortunate and unintended consequences for the rest of us. thus, we should truly consider france an out-of-control state

My dear abushaukat33,

When American servicemen rape, they are prosecuted. Articles like this (even one by Gregory "Kaffir") highlight the problem, bringing it notice that will lead to reform.

When Muslims rape, the same kind of thing needs to happen in the Islamic world.

Does it?

Cordially
Robert Spencer

The west will punish rape.
Islam celebrates it.

abushaukat33-

"Who will acknowledge that the world has developed principles of human rights that must supercede those forged in seventh-century Arabia?"

Mr. Spencer:

Your last question does not make sense to me. No one is a slave by consent. You quote a 1,400 year old text, and essentially paint an entire religion by these verses and recorded actions from that time.

It is no more correct to do this than it is to cite verse and text as done in this website http://www.evilbible.com/ as say that Christians should disavow the Bible and the teachings of Christ.

There are simply many verses of the Bible and the Quran which not only do not apply, they are atrocious.

And you know that, I am sure.

The mass rape and murder in Darfur is hideous and it should be stopped, just as it was is Kosovo.

I will answer one of my own questions...my Viking ancestors would probably have raped AND killed the women. When they later became Englishmen and Normans and Christians and Crusaders, they continued their fine standard of behavior.

It is not hard forme to imagine an Arabic website somewhere posting examples of Western history, verses from the Bible, and pointing to Milosovic and saying, "see how evil Christians are?"

This website posts very little good news coming out of the Islamic world, and there is some:

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

And there are links to more at this locale.

I have never seen it post any reference to what I call the "jewhad" which is the activities of Jewish extremists and attempts to start an all out war in the middle east.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129014,00.html

And don't forget, every now and then, to Google "Red Heifer" to see what those nut jobs are up to.

Thank you again for responding to my questions, Mr. Spencer.

Esse Quam Videri.

Or, as I prefer, Alenda Lux Ubi Orta Libertas.

I will leave you alone for a while again.

firstly there is no islamic world today rather corrupt dictatorial regimes who implement corrupted forms of western ways democracy etc.

secondly muslims dont rape and when someone does hes not muslim at the time and when found guilty is punished by death...

the basis of ur society is causes rape from the corrupt ideals and values it practises and progates, and can never elimate it unless they under shariah !

======================

Society today has a corrupt social system, stemming from the disorganization of the Man/Woman relationship. The current ills and the corruption existing in society are a result of the corrupt basis upon which the social system, and indeed all systems are based. "Social Ills" in most sociology text books. The problems however are always dealt with in isolation, and never traced back to the basis. The understanding that if the basis is corrupt then everything, which stems from it will naturally be corrupt, doesn't exist in this society. Rape, child abuse, pornography, adultery, incest, rising divorce rates, husband /wife battering , are all symptoms of this fundamental problem.

My dear "Kirk,"

"It is not hard forme to imagine an Arabic website somewhere posting examples of Western history, verses from the Bible, and pointing to Milosovic and saying, 'see how evil Christians are?'"

I suggest you study the writings of Islamic radicals. Many are posted here from time to time. You will find that for them, this 1,400 year old text is quite alive, and dictates their behavior. So your imaginary website would have to have Milosevic actually quoting the Bible to justify his actions in order for the analogy to be complete.

Sic semper tyrannis

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Gary it the new bride she can help you sleep?

September 24, 2004

Seams that nasseeem does not know the difference between voice and print? Wrote something about yelling? How sad! Such a STUPID WOMAN? As far as toner sounds like she better keep hers, 2 children must NEED IT as she said a small large woman? Here I might want to lose 5 lbs but I’m 5’8” size 8 green eyes honey blond hair to the small of my back and that’s no lie and Shoot Straight and True! When I was in Tunis had to hire a body guard to see the country side and still had a sweater stole for my smell so I was told? I was harassed by “hi hi bibi” and even had some camel jockey follow me back to Roma? Glad now I carry a 2nd Add everywhere! I DO NOT FELL SORRY FOR MULSUM WOMEN THEY LET THIS HAPPEN TO THEMSELVES AMERICAN WOMEN STOPPED THAT CRAP YEARS AGO AND WILL NOT LET MULSUMS BRING THAT KIND OF CRAP TO OUR SHORES? As far as caps I like to see them ! cause I know the difference between sound and PRINT!!!

Guys who have web pages get some of the video of what saddam did to his people the Bucher and all the hands cut off and all the old women crying at the mass graves that will be an effective tool this is why the LIB Media sits on these videos? How can the Mulsum world like to see what MONSTERS they support!! For every one the monster show. Show ones that mulsums do to other mulsums and there is plenty of feed!!

Yea nasseem è alcuni Grasso stupido donne che ama alcuni terrorista e è in questa guerra sullo torto fianco? Lei la donna stupida che lavoro fuori ogni mattina sembra come lei ha avuto l'inizio migliore. Perché sotto la sua legge che il suo mostro può trovare e sposa un bambino? Come malato ciò è? Come è venuto lei non parla mai del saddam di mostro che ha ucciso 300,000 Iracheno quanti persone di Iran che ha ucciso sopra un milione? L'Ovest non lo lascerà gira questo in un simile a sporco-foro lei ha fatto l'Est Medio! LEI SONO UN MALATO MATTO STUPIDO DONNA!

Per quelli che sono italiano dolente mio è la scrittura non è bene! Mio è di capire come dico che parla come un 2 anno vecchio ma capisce il biondo spiacente bene ! Fa Irene Grande ha qualunque musica nuovo
otto e mezzo Io amore e Nek!! Non a pauroso noi la volontà eleggere G.W.Bush!!

http://www.nbc4i.com/news/3746350/detail.html
Watson looks like your terrorist are making it into the places you thought to be safe?

Ck your 6?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15240

Saw some cops bring down a FAT mussi last night on the news and people were laughing was a replay moment!! was in C.Ohio!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer [have to make the Iraqis feel safe with all the giant spiders running around]

God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom and Courage to stay the course to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Eyes of the World to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at September 24, 2004 12:32 PM

Lets look at the ? of rape it is a form of force to show the men they can not keep their women safe. This is what mo-ham-od was to seen his spies Well 33 points out about the rapes around Fort Bragg this is to effect our soldiers so that their wife’s are frightened when they call home My advice is BUY A GUN AND SHOOT THE NEXT MULSUM WHO RAPES ANY WOMAN YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO KILL THEM CALLED SELFDEFENCE #33 FORGETS NOW WE HAVE MUSSIS IN THE AMERICAN MILITARY? SO IT IS THE MULSUMS WHO HAVE MOVED INTO THE AREA? #33 FORGETS THE REASON THAT FLA. GETS HIT WITH ALL THESE STORMS IS BECAUSE THE POP GROWTH OF MULSUMS.

Call me a redneck I am I wear shit-kickers!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom and Courage to stay the course to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

PS
Thanks Fox1

from what source is the account of the jewish massacre?

Are not the Darfur rapes primarily rapes of muslims by muslims? Rapes are an atrocity common to all cultures, are they not? I am not sure it is a part of the violent jihad...covert or be raped? I don't get it.

Posted by: Kirk at September 24, 2004 08:53 AM

Ishaq:461 “Muhammad besieged them for twenty-five nights. When the siege became too severe, Allah terrorized them.

the Jews felt certain that the Apostle would not leave them until he had exterminated them. So they decided to talk to Ka’b Asad. He said, ‘Jews, you see what has befallen you. I shall propose three alternatives. Take whichever one you please.’ He said, ‘Swear allegiance to Muhammad and accept him; for it has become clear to you that he is a prophet sent from Allah. It is he that you used to find mentioned in your scripture book. Then you will be secure in your lives, your property, your children, and your wives.’”
Tabari VIII:30 “The Jews said, ‘We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur’an.’ Asad said, ‘Since you reject this proposal, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.’ The Jews replied, ‘Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?’”

Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men. As they were being taken in small groups to the Prophet, they said to one another, ‘What do you think will be done to us?’ Someone said, ‘Do you not understand. On each occasion do you not see that the summoner never stops? He does not discharge anyone. And that those who are taken away do not come back. By God, it is death!’ The affair continued until the Messenger of Allah had finished with them all.”

After the siege exhausted and terrorized them,

Meaning rape and plunder?

Does this help you?

SEE?

Ishaq:437 “The Apostle ordered them to prepare for war and to march against them. Muhammad personally led his men against the Nadir and halted in their quarter. The Jews took refuge against him in their homes, so he ordered their date palms to be cut down and burnt. They shouted, ‘Muhammad, you have forbidden wonton destruction of property and have blamed those who perpetrated it. Why are you doing this?’”
Qur’an 59:5 “The palm trees you cut down or left standing intact was by Allah’s dispensation so that He might disgrace the transgressors.”

Qur’an 3:67 “Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was a true Muslim, surrendered to Allah (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.”

Qur’an 59:14 “The Jews will not unite and fight against you except from behind walls. They hate themselves. You would think they were united, but their hearts are divided. That is because these [Jews] are a people devoid of sense. Like those who recently preceded them [the Meccans at Badr], they [the Jews who were just sent into the desert to die] have tasted the evil result of their conduct. And for them a grievous punishment.”

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’”

Bukhari:V1B1N6 “Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.”

But how could he have taken a Jewish woman to his bed then ask her to marry him??? And she would rather die a slave? And did?

Bukhari:V4B55N546 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Gabriel has just now told me of the answer. If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble him, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.’”

But he was all knowing?

Tabari I:299 “Scholars of the nation of our Prophet say, ‘The tree which Allah forbade Adam and his spouse to eat was wheat.’”

Last time I ck-ed wheat is a grass not a tree?

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

RACISM:

Ishaq:243 “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom.”

[9:61] “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”

So all the killing of black mulsums by arabs is normal? So why have Black American joined mulsums? They want to be killed by arabs?

Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom and Courage to stay the Courae to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Eyes of the World to their threat Amen

"Jewhad"?

Small bands of ultra-conservative Jews (promptly stopped by Israeli police and the IDF) who want to attack mosques and cause trouble to stop the peace process so that they can keep settlements in the West Bank and Gaza?

And they want to start a war? What exists now?

"Jewhad?"

Belsan, New York, Washington, Southern Thailand, Jakarta, Bali, Madrid, Bagdad (many bombings: how about the UN for starters), Riyahd, Beruit, Luxor, Istanbul, Moscow (theatres/planes), Tunisia, Yemen, Mindinao, Morocco, Sulu, Ache, Dehli, and many, many others in recent history (how about 5 years, and we are not counting all the attempt that have been foiled: the London tube, Robert Reid, etc., etc,), and don't forget the Jihad in Israel, Afganistan, Kashmir, and history and traditions of violence, domination, mass murder...etc, etc, etc.

And the list is just beginning...

This is not even close to a reasonable false analogy, the analogy smells of the pathology of a Jew hater. Juden Hass, yes, my friend, esse quam videri.

That a scholar like Robert has had the courtesy to respond to you only speaks of his committment and kind intent to stop Jihadist and Islamic violence against women that is rampant throughout the world.

In the hadiths there are many that defile and degrade women.

Christianity has always elevated the status of women, both in marriage and in society;

Islam has held women as subserviant and even a danger to men. In Christianity, men and women are created equal in value and ability,although distinct in certain roles.

Muhammed believed women had less intelligence than men, saying a woman`s lower credibility is due to " the defiency of her intelligence" (Hadith 1:301).

Christianity says a woman`s testimony is equal to that of a man.

Islamic teachings says that a woman is worth only half that of a man. Mohammed said, " Is not the evidence of two woman equal to the witness of one man?" (Hadith 1:301)

Christianity says : Both men and women are sinful,but in Christ both are equally valued and regenerated.

In the Quran ; women are seen as a major cause of evil and are to be KEPT UNDER CONTROL. --Men are in charge of women ...As for those whom ye fear rebellion...."SCOURGE THEM" (Sura 4:34)

It is these tenets of the Quran and the reading of some 24,000 Hadiths attributed to Mohammed that leads to all kinds of interpretations. But many are quite clear, as in the Sura above ( Sura 4:34) that could very easily be misconstrued ; or is it? In any case there are many tenets that defile and degrade women as almost nearly being chattle .

The question here on just that sura alone is; Could rape be considered a form of control? My answer would be of course it can, for that is exactly what rape is; "a form of control".

Posted by: Kirk
"There are simply many verses of the Bible and the Quran which not only do not apply, they are atrocious."

Would please show this infidel where these are in my Bible..

I hear this all the time but never get a quote!

abushaukat33

How come you slithered away last night, to much truth for your brainwashed head?

I am not a Christian apologist, but the New Testament must be acknowledged for its revolutionary treatment of women against the background of horrible oppression in other cultures in antiquity. And, if we accept the arguments of some scholars surrounding gnostic texts, the feminism of the Nazarene may have been even more extreme than the New Testament seems to indicate.

The techings of the Nazarene are certainly a part of this, but also, of course, the cultural context of first century Judaism creates the conditions for the respect and power women seem to wield in the New Testament stories: these are the cultural roots of feminism in the West. There exists nothing like it in Greek or Roman culture, I would argue (because women appear to be raised to the level of moral paradigms in places); in Islam this spirit of feminine power, moral intuition, and identity is utterly denied.

Just one more thing on this subject...........

About 5 months ago in England, Khalifah, handed out leaflets on campus that gave instruction to muslim men, to entice the "Kufir" women into relations, marry and convert them or if marriage was not possible, to get them pregnant, once married, get them pregnant also as soon as possible, to propagate the "Islamic faith."

Divorce as soon as they could and remarry as soon as possible.

If "forced" conversion is the only way to succeed, then it was "permissible" (rape)

I have the leaflet on file somewhere, as soon as I find it, I'll post it, but in the meantime, you may still find reference to it at www.khilafah.com

CAIR Canada is still demanding Shariah-Law
for Muslims and many Females protesting the introduction are ignored and written off as
alarmists or not "True Muslims".
Rape and spousal abuse are the reason some of these women left Islamic States,the main proponents for Shariah are Imam's and male Muslims that stand to gain power over women
that the Constitution was meant to prevent.

NO SHARIAH - KNOW FREEDOM

This deviates from the "Jihad-rape" topic, but it's interesting to note that rape of (foreign) domestic housemaids is Gulf Arab countries is an extremely widespread and ongoing phenomenon.

The Amnesty International report on Saudi Arabia for 2002 quotes the Saudi Ministry of Labour saying that 19,000 housemaids fled their employers because of abuse.
Human Rights Watch has also commented extensively of the issue of sexual abuse of foreign maids in the Gulf. The situation is so severe that the Philippine government (in February last year) issued a booklet to migrants going abroad that warned women going to work as maids in Saudi Arabia that they would likely be sexually harassed by Saudi men.

(There are an estimed 1.2 million foreign housemaids in the Gulf, mostly from the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh & India. The vast majority have their passports kept by their employers, and many are kept in indentured conditions, without access to telephone or outside communications).

Suicides of housemaids are relatively common in the region, as are the phenomena of housemaids mysteriously "falling" from apartment windows, or being deported to their home countries after falling pregnant.

Sura 4:23-24 clearly permits sexual conquest of slaves. It's quite possible that there is a blurred line in traditional Gulf Arab countries between the concepts of "slave" and "housemaid".
After all, many housemaids in the Gulf, after arriving, are forced to work for no pay (Human Rights Watch). This state of affairs would make them de facto slaves.

Reprint from World Net Daily

November 10, 2003-----

Leading government cleric, author of country's religious curriculum

A leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country's religious curriculum believes Islam advocates slavery.

"Slavery is a part of Islam," says Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, according to the independent Saudi Information Agency, or SIA.

In a lecture recorded on tape by SIA, the sheik said, "Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."

His religious books are used to teach 5 million Saudi students, both within the country and abroad, including the United States.

Al Fawzan – a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia's highest religious body – says Muslims who contend Islam is against slavery "are ignorant, not scholars."

"They are merely writers," he said, according to SIA. "Whoever says such things is an infidel."

Al-Fawzan's best-known textbook, "Al-Tawheed – Monotheism," says most Muslims are polytheists, and their blood and money are therefore free for the taking by "true Muslims."

SIA said although the Saudi government claims religious curriculum is being reformed, Al-Fawzan's books are still in wide use.

Al-Fawzan is a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, Saudi Arabia's main center of learning for the strict Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.

SIA noted Al-Fawzan, a leading opponent of curriculum reform, opposes elections and demonstrations as Western influences, is against Arab women marrying non- Arab Muslims and has issued a fatwa forbidding the watching of television.

Al-Fawzan has threatened to behead a Saudi writer and scholar, Sheik Hassan Al-Maliki, for his criticism of Wahhabism, according to SIA. Al-Maliki was fired from his position with the ministry of education after writing a 50- page paper criticizing Al-Fawzan's book "Al-Tawheed."

Thank you, Sycamore, for the timely and needed ifo! I, too, have heard these things many times before.

Typo- should read "info."

BTW...What are these Saudi fathers doing in regard to child support?? This is something never mentioned in the press.

Hate to burst your bubble, JTF, but Paul of Tarsus took care of all that. He made sure that women would not have a significant stake in Christianity for hundreds of years.

For those of you here who may be adventurous, truth-seeking Christians: check out the Gospel of Mary Magdala (sorry, I don't have the URL--just Google it)

Hate to burst your bubble, JTF, but Paul of Tarsus took care of all that. He made sure that women would not have a significant stake in Christianity for hundreds of years.

For those of you here who may be adventurous, truth-seeking Christians: check out the Gospel of Mary Magdala (sorry, I don't have the URL--just Google it)

Hate to burst your bubble, JTF, but Paul of Tarsus took care of all that. He made sure that women would not have a significant stake in Christianity for hundreds of years.

For those of you here who may be adventurous, truth-seeking Christians: check out the Gospel of Mary Magdala (sorry, I don't have the URL--just Google it)

Triple posts (accidentally) thus triple apologies. This new feature on JW (to discourage fast-typing rabid Muslims) may not work for everyone!

To Bar:

here is a link to "evil" bible verse:

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

To JTF: elevation of women in the New Testament? That is debateable. Though it is hotly contested, and fiction to boot, read the DaVinci Code. Also, for kicks, reconcile this verse, all by itself 1 Cor 7.

Then, if your father was a true Christian, explain why you are here.

To Mr. Spencer: I have seen plenty of websites citing the Quran and calling the "faithful" to murder and mayhem. Rape I have not seen but I don't doubt they have.

Back in the days of ML King (mentioned above somewhere) there were many here in the US who cited the bible as the justification for slavery and unfair treatment of blacks.

Do evil groups, today, who call themselves "christians" have websites extolling the virtues of their evil ideology by shrouding it in Christianity? answer: http://www.kkk.bz/

there are plenty more, here's another:

http://www.truechristian.com/askpastorjim0603.html

Google will spit out plenty more of them.

quod erat demonstrandum?

and as an aside, and just for fun, what do we think of this? http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j041502.html

Sex slaves in America today...

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/10854587p-11772265c.html

Do these people give their consent?

do those verses in the Bible that seem to condone rape mean Christians in the USA approve of this?

Because the pope was slow to condemn the rape of children by parish priests, does this mean the Roman Catholic Church condones child molestation?

My dear "Kirk,"

You cite an article about "sex slaves in America today..." and ask: "Do these people give their consent?"

Where did I ever say that there were no rapes or sexual crimes in America?

You ask: "do those verses in the Bible that seem to condone rape mean Christians in the USA approve of this?"

I know of no such verses in the Bible. Please specify.

"Because the pope was slow to condemn the rape of children by parish priests, does this mean the Roman Catholic Church condones child molestation?"

It's certainly a scandal. And why? Precisely because the moral teachings of the Church are so much against this kind of behavior, and yet the people who taught these very principles weren't upholding them themselves. Now: where in the Qur'an or any other Islamic authority is it taught that Muslim warriors must not have sex with their female captives? Nowhere -- and in fact, Muhammad himself did so. So the behavior of the Beslan and Darfur jihadists is by these lights NOT a scandal -- and THAT, sir, is the problem.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer

See Jesus says this..

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people; but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am Jehovah

Deu 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, At the time when their foot shall slide: For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things that are to come upon them shall make haste.

see the above shows Jesus as the only one who can pass judgement!

The Bible also shows Gods judgement on Israel
( his people ) many many times...

Does the Qur’an ever condem Mohammed for anything?
Does the Qur’an ever pass judgment on any Moslem?
Does the Qur’an mention that Allah loves you?
Does the Qur’an mention that Allah has mercy or grace for you?

NO to all the above.

You will find that the people on this site will hold you accountable for what you say. This is a very educated group..

So be very careful about what lies you try to spread. You may want to find more than one source to back up your claims and try to find some that are respectable.

I messed up the last post...

Kirk

I took a look at your link... Dude those people at that web site, are on glue. Lots of glue...

Those passages don’t make one mention of Jesus telling anyone to rape women.
That link shows you lack of knowledge..
It even shows that the english language is a struggle for you...
Those passages are giving legal instruction and also an account of what happened.
Some of the passages you will find in the old testament do show God using Israel to pass judgement on the local heathens. What you fail to understand is it is GOD passing the judgement,
not man.

In the Qur’an it is only man who passes judgement, because Allah doesn’t seem capable.
Your comparing apples and oranges! My friend.

See Jesus says this..

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people; but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am Jehovah
Deu 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, At the time when their foot shall slide: For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things that are to come upon them shall make haste.

The Bible also shows God judgement on Israel many many times...

Does the Qur’an ever condem Mohammed for anything?
Does the Qur’an ever pass judgment on any Moslem?
Does the Qur’an mention that Allah loves you?
Does the Qur’an mention that Allah has mercy or grace for you?

NO to all the above.

You will find that the people on this site will hold you accountable for what you say. This is a very educated group..
So be very careful about what lies you try to spread. You may want to find more than one source to back up your claims and try to find some that are respectable.

Re: ala-sux comment " CAIR Canada is still demanding Shariah-Law"

I am confused. Somewhere on an earlier post I thought I read that Sharia was already on the books in Ontario. I found a link to an article that implies as much.

See the following link:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1085177409128&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

In this article (May 22, 2004) you'll see a passage that states:
"Last fall, Arjomand, now a transitional counsellor in Toronto for immigrant women, heard the province had quietly approved the use of Islamic law in Ontario's Muslim community."

regarding kirk's posting from antiwar.com:

raimondo makes some interesting points. i don't see what this has to do as apologetics for the jihad

and if there is a connection, is it not then true that all philosophies are interconnected somehow -- both good and evil -- like the riddle of the garden of eden?

Thanks Kafira. The Gospel of Mary Magdelene is among the gnostic gospels aforementioned.

I have always liked Wittgentstein's quip that the Old Testament was like the body, the Gospels like the head, and the Acts like the crown, and he saw no need for a crown. Who knows what we really need, but the Acts are screwy. And, however one looks at it, the references to Paul's Epistles do not negate the fact that in the canonical gospels women receive usually respectful and esteemed treatment.

Can one find a single instance in the gospels in which a woman failed to help Jesus in the way that is required by the ethic of of the text? And what about the men?

And the famous teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, do these make any sense from the point of view that the moral paradigm is a figure of traditional male dominance (turn the other cheek, for instance)?

But, forget all that...the issue of this thread is Islamic rape in war, Islamic treatment of women, and the textual and traditional precedents. And here we are babbling about Paul of Tarsus and the Sermon on the Mount, as if that has something to do with preventing the rape of a mother in the Sudan or promoting women's right anywhere in the Muslim world.

When is the last time someone threatened violence or even protested to any organization in the West, because Paul said that women should cover their heads? What country with a predominant Christian population has honor killings, threatens women with death for fooling around, forces women to cover their faces or their whole bodies for fear of 'reasonable male violence', considers unbeliever women who flaunt their bodies 'whores' almost by definition, rejects the right for women to hold political office and power, rejects the right of women to own and dispose of property as a man does, rejects the right of women to vote, denies women and girls the right to go to school, denies the women the right to express in public their sexual feeling, denies women the right to discuss in public their opinions at all in an honest, forthright way, denies women the right to beautify themselves with revealing clothing, denies women to wear skimpy outfits to play sports, denies women the right their opinions on family, children, art, history, literature, comedy, philosophy, literature....

All of these restrictions, denials, oppressions, crimes, exist in Islam, among Muslim believers, and in Muslim countries, somewhere.

"Jewhad", Western rape, 'Evil' bible verses, Southern racists against MLK, supposed moral equivalencies between the Bible and Koran...

Mr. Juden Hass is also Mr. Frauen Hass. He doesn't give a damn about the plight of women. If he did, he would show some pathos for the experience of raped women somewhere in the world (as Robert obviously has) whether it be in the West or the East, but he does not care: he is only concerned distracting attention from the women in Dafur, Belsan, Tehran, or anywhere in the Muslim world where men have the opportunity and the de facto legal and moral right to rape...forget about it...forget...forget...Keep the women under the scarf, under the burhka, under the threat of punishment, under Islam...and defend the faith.

Quod erat demonstrandum (that it has been demonstrated), clipping Latin phrases from a notebook as if he gave about damn about the meaning. What in the hell does a statement about geometric proofs have to do with rape and the plight of women?

A Jihadist at war using the tools of the Infidel: a Latin phrase must have some power because it was used by Descartes, Thomas Aquinas...as if the Infidel philosophers breath life into the idea and thereby bestow power to the Jihdaist to defend the faith using the weapons of the Infidel, like a muhjedeen in Falluja who does not know how to shoot an anti-tank weapon captured from a HumVee.

Or maybe there is some subconscious meaning to this.

What would a Janjaweed militiaman say after he murdered a husband, three sons, raped two daughters, and a mother, riding high on his horse, firing his gun up in the air...if he knew a little Latin or German, maybe after a philosophy class or two, perhaps he read a little Descrates or a little Heidegger, with Mein Kampf. Maybe he would speak like this just for fun,

"Quod erat demonstrandum" or perhaps "Arbeit Macht Frei..."

And his cold demonstration and work would mean her death.

Was looking at #33 post and his thing about Fort Bragg was back in 1993? this is 2004!!

Love what the Cop in LA said when he had a rapist running around He told the Women We [cops] can't be everywhere so buy a GUN!! and they did !

Wasn't that guy a mussi? [convert]

Jeevan Vasagar in Nairobi and Ewen MacAskill

Tuesday July 20, 2004

The Guardian
_____________________________________________

While African women in Darfur were being raped by the Janjaweed militiamen, Arab women stood nearby and sang for joy, according to an Amnesty International report published yesterday. The songs of the Hakama, or the "Janjaweed women" as the refugees call them, encouraged the atrocities committed by the militiamen.
The women singers stirred up racial hatred against black civilians during attacks on villages in Darfur and celebrated the humiliation of their enemies, the human rights group said.

"[They] appear to be the communicators during the attacks. They are reportedly not actively involved in attacks on people, but participate in acts of looting."

Amnesty International collected several testimonies mentioning the presence of Hakama while women were raped by the Janjaweed. The report said:"Hakama appear to have directly harassed the women [who were] assaulted, and verbally attacked them."

During an attack on the village of Disa in June last year, Arab women accompanied the attackers and sang songs praising the government and scorning the black villagers.

According to an African chief quoted in the report, the singers said: "The blood of the blacks runs like water, we take their goods and we chase them from our area and our cattle will be in their land. The power of [Sudanese president Omer Hassan] al-Bashir belongs to the Arabs and we will kill you until the end, you blacks, we have killed your God."

The chief said that the Arab women also racially insulted women from the village: "You are gorillas, you are black, and you are badly dressed."

The Janjaweed have abducted women for use as sex slaves, in some cases breaking their limbs to prevent them escaping, as well as carrying out rapes in their home villages, the report said.

The militiamen "are happy when they rape. They sing when they rape and they tell that we are just slaves and that they can do with us how they wish", a 37-year-old victim, identified as A, is quoted as saying in the report, which was based onmore than 100 testimonies from women in the refugee camps in neighbouring Chad.

Pollyanna Truscott, Amnesty International's Darfur crisis coordinator, said the rape was part of a systematic dehumanisation of women. "It is done to inflict fear, to force them to leave their communities. It also humiliates the men in their communities."

The UN estimates that up to 30,000 people have been killed in Darfur, and more than a million have been forced to flee their homes. Peace talks between the Sudanese government and two rebel movements broke down on Saturday when the rebel groups walked out, saying the government must first disarm the Janjaweed.

Another human rights organisation, Human Rights Watch, today publishes alleged Sudanese government documents showing that it was much more closely involved with the Janjaweed than it has so far admitted.

The documents, which Human Rights Watch said it had obtained from the civilian administration in Darfur and are dated February and March this year, call for "provisions and ammunition" to be delivered to known Janjaweed militia leaders, camps and "loyalist tribes".

One document orders all security units in the area to tolerate the activities of Musa Hilal, the alleged Janjaweed leader in north Darfur interviewed by the Guardian last week.

Peter Takirambudde, the executive director of Human Rights Watch's Africa division, said: "These documents show that militia activity has not just been condoned, it's been specifically supported by Sudan government officials."

The official government line is that it did not arm or support the Janjaweed, though its presence was useful in helping to combat rebels in Darfur.

AYC!

Will the Mulsum world reform? Or will they have to be taken out like you take out a bully when you have had enough?

Looks like the G8 and the Arab countrys are getting together to talk over Iraq?

I bet the west is looking Face to Face with the Problem wants to see how bad things[ugly] will have to get?

A Terrorist is a Terrorist is a mulsum?

England arm your non-mulsums NOW!!

http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/messageboard/?thread_id=FalKwY&showtime=14&archive=1090067244-1090446538

Other than the content, which will be self-explanatory, there are 2 very important factors in the below article.

1. Amnesty International
2. The Guardian

Both have notoriously and historically always been biased towards the Arab cause. So in advance, please save your collective breath with any lame ramblings of the reports being unfair...

Also, where in the heck is the Organisation of Islamic Countries, The Arab League, The European Union (with special mention to France) in their OUTRIGHT CONDEMNATION of this racial and ethnic cleansing?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

They were ALL quite loud when condemning Israel for protecting its citizens from terrorism, without any solutions about this.

It smacks of hypocricy when it's done on the home patch...

It makes me sick.

MAYBE MAKES HER SICK BUT MAKES ME BUY MORE AMMO!!

I aint wearing no burka I love what Pinkpowder said VROOOOM!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom and Courage to stay the course to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Eyes of the World to their threat and give them courage to stand and Fight Amen

Part

JTF-

You really made my day!! Had no idea Wittgenstein said that. Many thanks...!!!

Hey Kafira,

There is an older edition of an English translation of fragmanets on religion and ethics (early 1980s) by Wittgenstein (there are not all that many), but I no longer own the book, and since then other translations of 'ethical' and 'religious' fragments have come out and I am not sure where to find this particular one.

As I recall, the saying about the body, head and crown does not originate with Wittgenstein (not sure where that comes from) but the commentary that we do not need a crown (and some kind of approval for the rest of the analogy?) is.

There are not that many fragments on religion and ethics. If you browse you will probably find it.

Best,
JTF