A glimpse of the realities of secular Turkey, where government officials seem to be suffering from a strong dhimmitude hangover. Let them into the EU! From the Barnabas Fund, with thanks to Ali Dashti:
Ephesus Protestant Church at Selçuk is to be sealed by the local council on the grounds that the corrugated roofing and metal poles of the veranda contravene building regulations. This is likely to be followed by a fine of $1,000 and the forced demolishing of the veranda. Although at least 20 buildings in the neighbourhood have a similar construction, only the church and one immediate neighbour have been targeted by the council. The veranda was already in place when the church fellowship bought the building which they now use for worship.The chief civil engineer of Selçuk told church leaders that even if they were to demolish the veranda, there were other issues which the council would then raise with them requiring the demolishing of other parts of the building.
The church leaders believe it is the Christian training activities which take place at the church that have incurred the hostility of the local council. They fear that the council intends eventually to demolish the whole church building.
UPDATE: You may be more familiar with Selçuk's ancient name: Ephesus. It is one of the ancient Christian sites that was conquered by the Muslims. Turkey would love you to visit. They like the money that comes in from American tourists who are thrilled to see the ruins of famous New Testament sites. If you know of a group planning a tour to Turkey, have them let the Turkish government know that modern, living Christians in Turkey deserve the care and concern of Turkish officials as much or more than long-dead, buried ones.
If my history is correct when the muslims first invaded Ephesus they killed/wiped out the whole population which was around 100 000 people. That is far worse than the people that were slaughtered in the Crusaders first taking of Jerusalem. However you never hear in the middle east about this far worse slaughter of the people of Ephesus. Islamic historians are never interested in these things...doesn't fit an islamists agenda...only infidels commit atrocities they say.
Turkey is supposed to allow freedom of religion and proselytizing by christains in the country as a precondition for membership into the EU. Islamist practices are not dying easily in Turkey. I wouldn't want those influences in my country...hope the europeans don't either. However like the slaughter of the origianl inhabitants of Ephesus I don't think the EU cares what happens to any christains left in that city. If it were muslims being treated the same way in a EU country the media and academics would get very upset. Why european muslims are worth more than Turkish christians is beyond me. THESE TURKISH/MUSLIM CHURCH VANDALS MAY PUBLICLY SAY ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL, JUST IT SEEMS THEY THINK THAT TURKISH MUSLIMS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.
Turkey has had a good run, but if the beneficiaries of Kemalism, the secularists who must make up between 1/4 and 1/3 of the population, do not grasp what is happening, and fully oppose the slow dismantlement of Kemalism by Erdogan, they will find themselves in the same position as all those Iranian leftists (remember the very nice Shahpour Bakhtiar, who had been in the French Resistance -- remember what happened to him?) who could not withstand the full welcome prepared by Khomeini and his black reactionaries.
Just as many in Western Europe hardly grasp what they are in danger of losing, because the educational system has failed them (particularly in the indispensable study of their own history, and their own literature and language), secularists in Turkey take too much for granted what they can lose. It would help if they studied more closely the Islamic Republic of Iran, help if they began to emphasize the palimpest of Ottoman life, with attention to the Armenians, Greeks, Jews, and Levantines who, in 1910, constituted half the population of Constantinople, if there were not a lonely Turkish scholar (a student of Vahakn Dadrian) who has studied the Armenian genocide, if they no longer required from their academic admirers a kind of sanding-over of certain unpleasnat aspects of Ottoman history (look at how Bernard Lewis discusses the devshirme, or forced levy of Christian children for the Ottoman armies, or how Sanford Shaw depicts much of Ottoman life -- here Vakalopoulos and Speros Bryonis can be profitably compared with Shaw's version of events).
Modern Turkey is tolerable precisely to the extent that it has constrained Islam, and made the Ottomans a tourist attraction (Topkapi, and so on). If it regresses, if the natural tendency of any Islamic country to return to Islam is permitted, it will be far less pleasant, and not only for the tourists who will feel threatened and cease to come. Secularist Turks should brace themselves; Turkey hasn't a chance of being accepted into the EU, even if the day of reckoning is put off this December. Will they join Erdogan in blaming Infidel influence -- or will they blame, as they should, the "bad image" Islam has received from "the Arabs" (that should not be a hard sell in Turkey), and use the occasion not to weaken, but rather to strengthen their mainstay and their hope, Kemalism.
Slightly off topic, but I have a quick question. In a previous thread someone quoted an author discussing the problems of extending 'tolerance' to those who are unwilling/unable to return the favor. I am unable to find it, after trawling through recent postings. Can anyone who remembers this, or has read the book/article please post the reference. I would like to use it in an article. Would be much appreciated!
Turkey is a very interesting country. Selcuk is the modern town you pass through just before reaching the ruins of Ephesus. Ephesus is obviously a ruin now but it looks magnificent despite this. Selcuk though is a complete dump.
Ephesus has great resonance to all Christians. One of the earliest Christian communities was there, (see the letter to the Ephesians and the introduction to the Revelation of John.)
The Eastern church has long held on to the tradition that on the hill above Ephesus is the home that Mary the mother of Jesus moved to in her last years looked after by the apostle John.
With Islams 'holiest sites' it is demanded not requested that we respect. That respect is seldom reciprocated.
I went to Turkey just last year. Turkeys tourist industry reveals a horrific lack of understanding of other people and culures. One day out that was on offer was to visit a local 'ghost town.' A small town formerly belonging to ethnic Greeks who had 'left', overnight. I do not know if the people of this town were murdered or just driven out by the Turks, but to the Turks this was not (Like Dachau to the Germans) a reminder of their shameful past, but just a quaint empty town.
I am afraid I became a poor guest. The Turkish are very proud of 'their countrys' history, such as Ephesus. I never tired of telling them that this is Greek not Turkish history.
Anyone living next to Islam knows it can not be constrained. As Islam knows no boundary and will not respect the rights of non-Muslims, constraint is not the answer. Europeans are now learning the lessons of their ancestors. Is it too late for them? We'll know very soon...
PJS1:
I think you are referring to this post:
OT: Here is a great little summation of the evils of cultural relativism:
In his excellent book, The Killing of History (San Francisco: Encounter Books, 2000)Keith Windschuttle says, among many other intelligent things, as follows:
"The late Ernest Gellner pointed out the basic logical flaws in cultural relativism. In his book Postmodernism, Reason and Religion, Gellner showed that relativists are saddled with two unresolvable dilemmas. They endorse as legitimate other cultures that do not return the compliment. Some other cultures, of which one of the best known is Islam, will have no truck with relativism of any kind. The devout are totally confident of the universalism of their own beliefs which derive from the dictates of God, an absolute authority who is external to the world and its cultures. They regard a position such as postmodern cultural relativism as profoundly mistaken and, moreover, debasing. Relativism devalues their faith because it reduces it to merely one of many equally valid systems of meaning. So, entailed within cultural relativism is, first, an endorsement of absolutisms that deny it, and, second, a demeaning attitude to cultures it claims to respect." (p. 301-2)
But if Turkey was part of the EU, then maybe it's christians could raise their concerns with the EU commission of human rights?
And these people want to join the E.U ?? Do Turkish Islamo Hardliners realise that E U Law would take precedence over their own if they did join.... Can you imagine fury and murderous behaviour of these Jihadists when they find out and defend Religion of 'Peace and Tolerance' in their usual way!
Thanks Mentat! I appreciate it!
Ironically ,the revered prophet Muslims call Jesus,predicted a false Prophet would come and claim to speak for God and bring peace,but this Prophet would lie and only bring death,hate and war.
The Quran merely fulfills the prophecies of Christ and either the Quran is a lie or the Prophet Jesus lied. Muslims can't have it both
ways,Muhammed never healed anyone,seldomly foregave anyone,never rebuked the murdering of his brothers,didn't see pedophilia as a sin,felt a dispensation from God to murder on his behalf,saw wives a chattle,opposed slavery when
the owners were white,protected his claims by imposing death to those that doubted he spoke for Allah.
Muslims are part of Christs prediction of
war and violence on Earth,that fact that Allah only promises virgins in paradise for Muslim males pretty well says it all.
NO ISLAM - KNOW PEACE
Peter:
The Greek ghost town near Ephesus you are talking about was almost certainly the same one I visited on my trip there a couple of years ago.
It was because of the exchange of populations, a policy adopted after the war - basically ethnic Greeks were forcibly expelled to Turkey and vice versa. This was an appalling act on both sides.
My impression of Selcuk was very different - a rather dull place architecturally, but nice people. I like the Turks and hope that they manage to stay reasonably secular, rather than being taken over by the Islamists.
Is it possible that the European Union would collapse with Turkey's admission? The EEC failed. I know a lot of money has gone into round two of a "unified Europe" but how solid is it? There seems to be a lot of bickering about the EU constitution. Just asking.
Praise the Lord that there are enough Turkish Protestants in Selcuk that they need more than a living room in which to meet, and could come up with the funds to build it! I also understand that Turkish Protestantism has recently rebuilt form the ground up, and consists mostly of former Muslims and their offspring, rather than of ethnic Greeks and Armenians as in the glory days of Robert College.
It is also a delicious irony that after Turkey thinks it's finally rid of the Christians, it finds them re-appearing among the descendants of the medieval jihadis who destroyed the Eastern Roman Empire.
Christ is risen, and He will raise up His church, too!
Hallelujah! Maranatha! Come, Lord Jesus!
The most sickening thing in the world is there is no yang, as apposed to the yin of islam.
We in the Techno-progressive, democratic, civilized west in our space age era, with all the intelligence that we have between us, still;on the whole, cannot see what is staring us in the face: Islam is trying to go global!!!
All the non-muslim countries should be doing everything they can to counter islam, knocking down mosks, deporting muslims to provent their demographic conquest, attacking known terrorist strongholds, and groups (I'm talking CAIR, and Britsh Islamic Council more so than Al qaeda now), brain-washing muslims to infiltrate their underworlds,torturing known terrorists or people with heavy ties to terrorists to gleen information (and the lefts insistance that people will say anything under torture to make it stop is pure bullshit, if you make it clear that any info that turns out to be false will result in more torture).
But instead we have let a terrible weaknesas overpower us, or at the very least, burden us greatly: Political Correctness.
If not for that we would be doing all of the above just as Russia, Middle Eastern countries, Israel, India, China, Indonesia,South/Central America and african nations do without critisism from self righteous groups being allowed to dictate whats right and wrong , and whats best (without having a clue about the epic and historic damage they are causing).
Yes we are a civilised and free part of the world, but to deal with babaric, primitive, undemocratic , uncivilized countries, you need to get down to their wavelength, speak a language they understand, not pussyfoot around them making yourself look weak and hindered by your own kind.
The only language islamic terrorists understand is violence,pain and death....lets get multi-lingual!!!
Does anyone know the address of the Turkish ambassador? I'd like to write him an e-mail about this.