Citizens Group Asks Islamic Society of Boston To Take Necessary Actions to Moderate Mosque Teachings

The Mosque membership conforming to those 9 conditions would mean that they are giving up their religion.

It is not going to happen.

A viper painted with a rainbow is no less poisonous.

"Dr. Mansour, an Islamic scholar, noted “ I hope and pray that the ISB new leadership is sincere in their pronouncements. We know that many radical Islamist practice “Taqieah” which sanctions saying what you have to say, but which you don’t believe, to protect yourself and what you really believe."

Wow! An Islamic scholar has admitted that Muslims practice taqiyya! I never thought that I would live long enough to see that day.

May be there is some hope.

General Question

Do you think the position of CPT does more harm than good? That is to lie about islam being tolerant and peaceful?

Or is it okay to lie about islam, in hope of convincing muslims to lay off their jihadist ways?

Dr Mansour gives us all hope for the future. Now you're talking Bro!

Let's get real. How many Christian or Jewish congregations would acquiese to demands like these from Muslims?

Reminder~ Ramadan begins Today. Lets see what happens in the next month.

'Wrong in Ramadan'
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/foreman200410150935.asp

Finally informed, direct, opposition to dehumanizing, violent, deceptive Islamic doctrines and practices that must be confronted, everywhere, in every mosque. And if the Muslims in the ISB are truly 'moderate', they will respond honestly, directly, openly: then, I would say, we might be getting somewhere.

And what are the chances of that? The ISB has behaved in a manner completely consistent with the taqiyya of Saudi financed Bin Laden-ites. Prove us wrong! Given the stakes, the spread of jihadist ideology, the potential for mass murder, the ISB has the burden of proving us wrong; and the federal government and the city of Boston have the obligation to come to the aid of American citizens and the CPT and put this mosque out of business, if the ISB does not prove us wrong. The stakes are simply too high. The American people have a right to protection.

Do you hear that Senators Kerry and Kennedy, and Mayor Menino? The American people have a right to civil protection. Where are you?

I'd like to add another...

Do not permit books such as "What Islam is All About" and "Mercy to Mankind", which are anti-Jewish and anti-Christian textbooks aimed at K-12 students.

"Do you think the position of CPT does more harm than good? That is to lie about islam being tolerant and peaceful?

Or is it okay to lie about islam, in hope of convincing muslims to lay off their jihadist ways?"

Callistos: Actually, I do not think that the CPT is asking the Muslims at the Boston Mosque to lie about Islam. They are asking them to reject the teachings of Islam that are hateful and intolerant, which is what, of course, this website's goal is. That an Islamic scholar is willing to admit that Islam has hateful and intolerant teachings that need to be rejected is a major step forward. Many Muslims, such as the Ismailis (who, I hasten to say of course are not considered Muslims by the Sunni or Shia), reject Sharia law, reject the doctrines of violent Jihad against non-Muslims and Dhimmitude. I think it is quite possible to still be Muslim and reject big chunks of Islam, just as you can still be Catholic or Jewish and reject or not practice big chunks of their theology and/or religious law.

However, what is at issue is the ability of Muslims to take the above action and not face persecution from their fellow Muslims. In majority Sunni or Shia Muslim countries, you could never publicly reject big chunks of Islamic teachings without facing public persecution. Only in the West, at least for the time being, can Muslims attempt to forge a new relationship with Islam, without facing public persecution.

Can this be done? First, of all, we have to Muslims willing to speak out and actually admit that Islam does contain hateful teachings that must be rejected. Secondly, frank and blunt public discussions about the hateful teachings of Islam must be allowed. Thirdly, Muslims who reject those teachings must challenge their fellow Muslims to reject those teachings.

And what arguments should they be using to convince their fellow Muslims to reject those teachings? They should appeal to their sense of shame. Muslims were convinced worldwide to give up slavery despite it being sanctioned by the Quran because Western thinkers and governments managed to convince people in Muslim countries that slavery was shameful. Similary, Muslims must be convinced that attempting to achieve the political ideals of Sunni or Shia Islam - (the Shiites seem to lean more toward a Catholic style, unelected theocratic hierarchy these days rather than return to the Khilafa) (i.e. the global caliphate and dhimmitude for those not willing to immediately convert to Islam)- is a shameful goal. They must be convinced that freedom of conscience and individual liberty regarding religion is acceptable. They must be convinced that allowing people to choose their religious beliefs freely is acceptable. They must be shown that in Western countries what is remarkable is how many people, despite being able to choose any kind of belief system, CHOOSE TO FOLLOW BELIEF SYSTEMS WHICH ARE REASONABLY TOLERANT OF OTHER PEOPLES' BELIEFS.

A majority of people in the West do not choose to become Satanists, or members of the Ku Klux Klan, or Nazis, etc.. Despite having the freedom to choose whatever belief system they want, most do not choose sociopathic beliefs. Muslims must be convinced that people can be good without being FORCED to be good. And that is really the fundamental part of Islam that must be rejected - that people who do not currently "submit" to Allah's legal and moral pronouncements must be FORCED to do so by Allah's followers.

"They are asking them to reject the teachings of Islam that are hateful and intolerant, which is what, of course, this website's goal is"

Sorry, in my opinion, rejecting teachings that are hateful and intolerant is to reject islam itself. So, what you are asking muslims to do is to reject islam, which of course, none of them in their right mind, would do (They will get killed).

Another general question,

Do you think after rejecting the hateful and intolerant teachings of islam, would you still have islam?

Norseman: You ask us Christians to get real about the things on the list. Here goes.

1. Condemn Fitaihi's anti-Semitic writings and dismiss him from the ISB board

**None of us believes the _Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion_ to be anything but fraudulent drivel.

**You can't be a fundamentalist Christian and deny that Jesus and his disciples were Jews at the same time.

2. Provide full disclosure of sources of funding for Mosque and related conditions associated with funding. Given the tangled web of financing and multiple layers in which many radical organizations and their associates and founders operate; it is very difficult to determine who really controls certain Muslim institutions.

**Sorry. We're funded by tithes and penny ante offerings from the membership--even if we're debt-free now (bless God).

3. Develop the Mosque Library to be a model for teaching and preaching moderate, tolerant Islam. Radical, hateful literature does not belong in a house of worship.

**We'll put what we want in our library, and sometimes, we'll just have to remind people that, like Cromwell, our portrait has to be warts and all.

4. Reject teaching of wife beating.

**Peter and Paul both teach us to be considerate to our wives and live with them as joint heirs of salvation. I am unaware of a text in the OT or NT that condones physical violence against a spouse.

5. Disavow the Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism ideology.

**We do not support the Ku Klux Klan, and regard their Anglo-Israelism as heresy.

6. Condemn the teaching and ideology of Alamoudi, Qaradawi

**Somebody else's problem.

7. Condemn all suicide bombing as being un-Islamic. Suicide bombing ,any where, against anyone, for any reason is un-Islamic

**We Presbyterians were on the receiving end of such things in Ulster.

8. Make this mosque a model of moderate and tolerant Islam for the nation and the world.

**SOrry. The Word of God is TRUTH, and we'll teach it as such. If Jesus' resurrection from the dead and the final judgment are lies to bamboozle people into supporting clergymen, well, so is the text about loving thy neighbor as thyself. They're all in the same book.

9. Invite moderate Islamic scholars, as well as Christian and Jews to preach and teach about tolerance. The mosque should be a model of transparency and openness by making its texts, sermons, teaching in both English and Arabic available to the public

**Fine. Do I understand that the ACLU and Planned Parenthood will let me take their podium and warn them that if they don't repent of their support of baby-killing, they'll go to Hell?

Callistos:

"Do you think after rejecting the hateful and intolerant teachings of islam, would you still have islam?"

Sure. Why not? Muslims could simply concentrate on the 5 pillars and forget about the sixth pillar (i.e. Jihad). They could forget about politics and imposing Allah's will on the world and move to a more Sufi style quietistic, personal Islam. Of course, that will only happen if Muslims no longer believed that the Qu'ran is the literal word of God and could pick and choose what they wanted from the Qu'ran, much as Christians pick and choose what they want from the Bible.

Unfortunately, I do not think that is likely to ever happen however. Even with advanced Western educations, the Muslims I have talked to are particularly good at compartmentalizing their intellectual lives. Even if they are capable of critical thinking in their chosen profession (i.e. medicine, engineering, etc.), when it comes to their religion, they are incapable of thinking critically about it and just accept it unreservedly.

So, we are left with V.S. Naipaul's vision of the future:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003161.php

Naipaul said the thing he saw in the current terrorism was the exulting in other people's death.
"We are told the people who killed the children in Russia were smiling. The liberal voices were ready to explain the reasons for their actions. But this has no good side. It is as bad as it appears," he said.

Asked about a proper response of the West, Naipaul said: "Well, clearly Iraq is not the place to have gone. But religious war is so threatening to the rest of us that it cannot be avoided.

"It will have to be fought... there are certain countries which foment it, and they probably should be destroyed, actually."

What about Saudi Arabia? Naipaul said: "I would like to think so, yes", adding that "I think Iran has to be dealt with, too."

Naipaul believes that the world is yet to confront the implications of the rise of Islamic states.

"The blowing up of the twin towers; people could deal with it as an act of terror, but the idea of religious war is too frightening for people to manage. The word used is jihad. We like to translate it as holy war, but really it is religious war," he said.

Callistos:

Here. Look at this article. There is some hope.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1097878212492&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Oct. 16, 2004. 08:55 AM


RICK MADONIK/TORONTO STAR
Yesterday the Noor Cultural Centre, housed in the former Japanese-Canadian Cultural Centre, became what is believed to be the first place in Canada where Muslim men and women can pray in two separate sections, side by side.

Progressive Muslims challenge tradition

LESLIE SCRIVENER
FAITH AND ETHICS REPORTER

Roshan Jamal has never seen herself as a traditional Muslim woman. The Toronto chartered accountant wears business suits to work and doesn't cover her hair in public. And for a long time, she felt she didn't fit in at Islamic centres where men and women were segregated, used separate entrances and women were covered up.

``I belonged nowhere,'' says Jamal, who heads the new Noor Cultural Centre in North York, a liberal-minded Muslim organization. ``When I was raising my children, I had nowhere to go.

``It seemed you belonged either in the secular world, or you went into traditional areas. There didn't seem to be a midway and I felt there were a lot of women like me in mainstream Canadian society.''

And not surprisingly, there are a lot of men like her, too.

Jamal, who is CEO of the centre, is part of a growing North American movement of progressive Muslims creating alternatives to more traditional, conservative organizations.

The movement is largely being driven by North American-educated Muslims from diverse cultural backgrounds, many of whom are in their 30s and 40s, who are beginning to step back and take a critical look at traditional practices.

Yesterday, on the first day of Ramadan, the month of fasting, the Noor centre became what is believed to be the first place in Canada where Muslim men and women can pray in two sections that are side by side.

Next month marks the arrival of the Progressive Muslim Union of North America. The new group, which encourages women's religious leadership, supports gay rights and takes inspiration from civil rights leader Martin Luther King, is being heralded as an ambitious — and undoubtedly controversial — undertaking.

The New York-based union is a response to a crisis in Islam, says co-founder Ahmed Nassef. He says U.S. studies show that only 10 per cent of Muslims have an association with mosques or other Islamic institutions.

And one of the reasons for this, says Nassef, 38, is that many feel alienated from the religious leadership.

"People feel shut out because of a narrow, obscurantist interpretation of Islam. It shuts out a lot of women in an ultra-conservative environment," he says.

"Most people we appeal to have grown up in Canada and the U.S. and accepting people for who they are is normal. Some people will feel homosexuality is a sin, but feel deeply gays should not be discriminated against," says Nassef, a former marketing consultant. "There is room here for multiple views."

The Progressive Muslims Union of North America grew out of Nassef's popular website, muslimwakeup.com, which features provocative columns like ``Sex and the Umma (the Muslim World)'' and ``Hug a Jew,'' where Muslims seek out like-minded Jews for an embrace. Noam Chomsky was a recent catch. The site, which logged 2.8 million hits last month, just launched ``Ramadan Journal,'' a blog about experiences such as what it's like to live with a non-faster and how to get through coffee-withdrawal during the month when Muslims fast from dawn to dusk, abstaining even from water.

The group calls for critical engagement with Islamic texts and reaction to the conservatism that dominates many Muslim organizations.

"Someone whose sense of being Muslim comes from medieval Persian love poetry is no less a Muslim than someone who prays five times a day," says Omid Safi, 33, a co-founder and editor of the book, Progressive Muslims, which outlines the principles of the movement.

The founders, who have backgrounds ranging from academics to marketing and communications, say they want a ``big-tent'' approach to bring in the widest possible range of views. And they want to provide an alternative to the face of Islam often presented in the media — that of Old World Muslims.

"It is a segment of the community, but not the whole," remarks Nassef.

The new group is bound to alienate conservative thinkers who disapprove of its pro-gay position, its push for women's equality in leadership, and its welcome to all Muslims, not only those who are religiously observant.

Katherine Bullock, of the Islamic Society of North America (Canada) — an organization rooted in orthodoxy — says the arrival of the union has signified a new openness, and is reminiscent of the early years of Islam, with lots of thinking, debating and dialoguing.

"Let's hope they remain open to traditional Islamic thinking," Bullock adds.

Among the issues the progressive union will address is the role of women in the mosque.

Safi, who is an Islamic studies professor at Colgate University, asks: "Should one line up behind male imams forever and ever? It's a question that deserves to be asked."

As head of the Noor Cultural Centre, Roshan Jamal, for one, has taken a big step forward. It's rare for a woman to helm an Islamic organization.

``I've not heard of it anywhere else,'' she says.

As a part of its openness mandate, the centre is challenging long-standing Muslim traditions that separate men and women at prayer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`Should one line up behind male imams forever and ever? It's a question that deserves to be asked'

Omid Safi, co-founder,

Progressive Muslims

Union of North America

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yesterday, the Noor Centre, which resides in the former home of the Japanese-Canadian Cultural Centre on Wynford Dr., began holding regular Friday prayers with men and women praying in two sections, but side by side. This kind of prayer arrangement is believed to be a first in Canada.

``Why not side by side?'' asks Jamal, 59. "This is gender equality. There is nothing in scripture that says you cannot.''

Different interpretations of women's place in prayer halls can be traced to the Hadith, the sayings and practices of Prophet Muhammad. One trend that gained popular support in the last century places women at the back of the mosque.

But in her analysis of the Hadith, University of Toronto graduate student Nevin Reda El-Tahry found the majority of trends opposed segregation. Her research was recently published in the American Journal of Islamic Social Sciences.

In Toronto, women often pray separately from men in inferior spaces — basements, balconies, small rooms or behind screens. In a few new mosques, men and women share the same floor, though women are at the back of the hall.

While there's no organized uprising of Muslim women demanding their rights in mosques, there are scattered examples of women taking up the progressive mantle and challenging the status quo in the U.S. and Canada.

Journalist Asra Nomani faces expulsion from a Morgantown, W. Va., mosque where, a year ago at Ramadan, she dared to use the front door, not the women's side entrance, and prayed in the main hall, 10 metres behind a row of men.

Nomani had been on the hajj (holy pilgrimage) to Mecca and enjoyed unsegregated access. "There was no men's section, no women's section, no women's hour to circle the Kabbah (Islam's holiest site). It was equal opportunity," she says.

"I asked myself, am I being shallow for caring about the space where I pray?" says Nomani, a former Wall Street Journal reporter who returned to her hometown to raise her 2-year-old son.

She called scholars across the U.S. for advice. "Some acknowledged mosques are men's clubs; all affirmed our right to be in the main space without a barrier and that my basic rights were being denied."

In August, after months of angry debate, she won the right to pray on the main floor of the mosque, though the leadership wants her expelled, saying she was disruptive to prayer.

Nomani says many Muslims are afraid to speak out.

"It's fear of challenging traditions that are disguised as religion."

Most mosques in Toronto — the majority of which are converted from other uses — do not provide for women to pray in the same space as men.

There are exceptions, including Toronto and Region Islamic Congregation (TARIC) in North York, where there is no partition in the hall separating men and women, who pray at the rear, and the Islamic Society of North America mosque in Mississauga, where a low railing separates the women's prayer area from the men's.

"It is the nature of prayer that we stand shoulder to shoulder to pray to form a solid bond," said Haroon Salamat, chair of TARIC's board. "I think a lot of men would be upset to have other men standing next to their wives and daughters. There's less distraction."

At the Noor Cultural Centre, which was redesigned with stylized Islamic detailing by the original architect, Raymond Moriyama, Roshan Jamal hopes for a Canadian vision of Islam.

"It will have a Canadian cultural aspect,'' says Jamal.

``Men and women will mingle. I wear Western clothes — to work and at home. Why should I put on different garb when I go to a centre to meet my community?"

And she insists that Noor, which offers lectures, musical events and English language classes, reflects mainstream Islam.

"This is not breakaway,'' Jamal says. ``This is not reform."

Safi, of the Progressive Muslims Union of North America, echoes her sentiments.

He says none of his fellow founders is a ``Muslim Martin Luther,'' intent on separating from the faith.

``I see transformation by remaining in the community and transformation from within,'' says the professor, who sees another Martin Luther — King, that is — as one of his models.

The word noor means light in Arabic. Says Jamal, head of the aptly named Noor Centre:

``In some ways we are coming out of darkness ourselves.

``When Islam came to the world 1,400 years ago, it was a very influential civilization, making advances in science, mathematics, trade, economics. Over recent centuries, people's views became more narrow, compartmentalized.

``Now it's time to go back to enlightenment.''

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