From KOTV, with thanks to Susan:
Several Tulsa citizens are speaking up about a teacher workshop on the Muslim world. The workshop is called "The Arab world and Islam".Organizers say the goal is to give teachers information on the Muslim culture. But opponents of the class don't want any part of it....
Opponents of the workshop met at a church Tuesday night. They voiced their opposition to what they're calling the indoctrination of their children. A pastor, who's also a former Muslim, spoke to the group. He says he wants the class stopped before it even starts.
Workshop organizers say the class explains the concepts of Islam, and then discusses Arab issues, like politics, natural resources and culture.
Some people at the meeting don't want any of it taught to their kids. “They've made a big issue about making sure that Christianity and God is not talked about in school so I think it's only right that we stand up and defend our children against being taught things from another religion."
School officials say, of course, that they are only teaching about Islam, not teaching Islam. But that has already shown itself to be an exceedingly fine line.
Why Islam? Why not buddhism? Why not hinduism? Why not Wicca?
Yup, voltaire.
If any religion ought to be taught at all in school, it should be Buddhism - probably because it ain't a religion only in the real sense of the word. Its something an atheist could be comfortable with just as much as an evangelical. Its silent about God but teaches rationality, realism, serenity and techniques of meditation.
Anything but islam in schools, please...
Seems to me that Americans are so gullible that putting in "about" opens the door.
Isn't this:
"discusses Arab issues, like politics, natural resources and culture."
more pertinent to geography?
A list of things that the parents might demand be included in any workshop on Islam:
1) Recent scholarship on the origins of Islam -- John Wansbrough, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, Yehuda Nevo, Gerd Puin, Christoph Luxenburg et al.
2) The definiition of dar al-Islam and of dar al-Harb, and the relationship that is to be established between the two.
3) The basis for all Muslim jurisprudence pertaining to treaties and agreements with Infidels -- that is, the Treaty of al-Hudaibiyya.
4) The concept of Muhammad as a "perfect man" and the behavior of Muhammad in his 78 military campaigns, including the stated reason for the campaign against the Jews of the Khaybar oasis, and the execution of the Jews of the Bani Qurayza taken prisoner.
5) Sura 9:29 of the Qur'an.
6) The doctrine of naskh, or abrogation.
7) What the word "Sunna" comprises, and the contents of some of the best-known hadith (stories about the acts and sayings of Muhammad) that express the correct Muslim attitude toward Infidels.
8) The Qur'anic verses pertaining to women. The most relevant hadith pertaining to women. The women in Muhammad's life, including the story of his last, and favorite, wife -- young Aisha, whom he married when she was 6, but demurely waited to consummate the marriage when she was 9 years old. The significance, or lack of it, of this part of Muhammad's life for Muslims today.
9) The atittude toward the Christian belief in the divinity of Christ. The relevant passages in the Qur'an about believers in "shirk."
10) The concept of the kuffar. What is the Bilad al-Kufr? Why is it now permissible, as it once was not, for Muslims to migrate to the Bilad al-Kufr and live there? What do the Muslim websites explain?
11) What does the phrase "umma al-islamiyya" mean? Do whom, or to what, must Muslims owe their allegiance? Are they permitted to owe their allegiance or loyalty to anything else? Could they ever possibly fight on the side of Infidel fellow-citizens against Muslims from another country?
12) What is the concept of "taqiyya"? Does it differ from "kitman"? People of all religions lie, but is there another religion that formally sanctions lying in order to protect that religion or its Believers?
13) How are Jesus and Moses viewed in Islam?
14) What are the "djinn" in the Qur'an and where to they come from?
15) When was the Qur'an written? Over what period of time? And who wrote it down, if Muhammad was "unlettered"? And who dictated it? Why are there so many elements of both the Old and the New Testament to be found in the Qur'an? Which came first?
16) Why did the original Arab conquerors have such astounding success in subduing large swaths of territory? Did the belief-system they brought with them help or hinder that success, in the light of what you now know about Islam?
17) Can the hadith that are regarded as "authentic" be changed? That is, can one simply get rid of those hadith that say unkind things about Infidels?
18) Why are those who are Muslims not allowed to change their religion without the threat of severe punishment, including death?
19) Why do Muslims call Infidels who become Muslims "reverts" rather than "converts"?
20) What does the word "dhimmi" mean? What are the ahl al-dhimma? What is the "pact" that was made between the Muslims and the "People of the Book" who were allowed to live, and even practice their religion, under certain conditions? What requirements were laid upon the dhimmis in order that they might be treated as such? What does it mean to be a "protected people" -- "protected" from what, exactly?
21) Was Islamic Spain a paradise of interfaith harmony, that it would be advisable to try to reproduce today, if only we could?
22) What are the vast benefits that either "interfaith dialogue" or a "dialogue of civilisations" can bring to us?
Oh, this is just a start. Come to think of it, this little quiz is useful not only in Tulsa, but in New York and Washington.
Here is what I propose. Everybody, anybody, who wishes to utter a word about Islam, or about the relation of the tenets of Islam to how Muslims actually treat non-Muslims, and have done so for 1350 years, will have to take this test.
Time allotted: as much as you want.
If you want to go to the bathroom, the proctors will escort you.
Please write on only one side of the blue book.
Good luck!
OK, Hugh, look; you can no longer deny that even though you take particular pleasure in writing at the graduate level, you are perfectly capable of seeing far enough into the minds of our children to isolate the essentials that they must know in order to understand what Islam is all about.
I am absolutely certain that if you were to write several age-appropriate versions of the "core" material that parents (forget the schools--they're hopeless) need to teach their children, it would sell. Use a publishing program, and publish on-demand.
Why should the burden fall on you? Because you have the breadth and depth of knowledge that enables you to be "nuanced" re: the kinds of details that connect ALL the dots.
Since you enjoy writing at the graduate level, maybe it would be better for you to do a basic writeup of the essential material, and then hand it off to someone else to finesse into various age-appropriate books. Each level would probe the problem wider and deeper. You would then act as Supreme Most Powerful Editor.
Contextual material such as biographical, philosophical, historical, geographical, etc.information would give it the appeal of a stirring adventure, and evoke the emotions necessary to glue the facts into their permanent memory banks.
I thought God created fields and ditches so men like me wouldn't have to die in hospitals. There are times though that I think God takes time out from His busy day just to test my faith. Well, good; my God is a warrior God, and I'm a fighting man; my God has no slaves. And then there are days when I have to leave Jihad Watch/ Dhimmi Watch to go to death-watch, to sit while a friend bleeds to death, and I can't fight it no matter that I'm a fighting man and that my God doesn't love slavery. My friend, like us all, has his time, and my friend's time is near. It's a bitter thing to see a romantic man, a friend who's strong and brave and decent, a man meant to die in a ditch, gone down fighting, is left to puke up buckets of blood in a sterile room instead. I don't love death, and neither does my God. My God doesn't cry out for the blood of Moslems, though there are times I do. Not always often enough I regain my Humanity and I see that Moslems are not too much different from my friend. The only difference is that Moslems will never be my friends, and they will never be fighting men, strong and brave and loyal and decent. They will forever be slaves in their own minds, incapable even of having a genuine friendship with another Moslem, the best available to them the secret and guilt-ridden sodomite relationship with their habibis. I can't find the qualities in Moslem men that would earn their friendship: I see slavery, bullying, woman-bashing, and child molesting. They can blow themselves up, but there's not a fighting man in a thousand among them. What there is instead, and what we think we know clearly, is murder. Most of us wish for little more than a long and decent life of productive labor and healthy children to stand around our hospital beds as we take our leave in peace. Moslems will not allow us that anymore. But until you're there, until you're face to face with one who will tie you up and cut your head off, it's all abstract, newspaper stories and images on television. Most of us wouldn't welcome going out in a mad fight against a murderer. Most of us are made for leaving at the hospital.
The religion of peace. The hospitals of bed-pans and blood on the sheets. These things are in conflict. There's no sense in it. A fighting man who'd have laughed on his way down into the weeds and the dirt lies in his own urine. Cowards and murderers want to take you down by stealth and cunning, not leaving you the chance to live your lives till the rightful end. They will kill you. It's not abstract at all. The schools of America and Europe are abstractions, bubbles that one looks through without touching on the rea, on the true reality that Moslems are made mad to the point that their lives are now made to murder. If you confront them, if you stand in their way, they will hit you and break your nose, they will stab you in the ribs, they will smash your head open with a rock. For men like some of us that's a good thing, a great way to go out, to go down fighting. but for most of us it's crazy, not what we want at all; we want to live in peace, not in the religion of peace, but in the peace of security and decency among our families and friends until it's our time to lie down and leave gently as we may.
I will suggest that we confront Islam, and that means men who will at times stand up in front of you, and those men will try to kill you, regardless of the innocent intentions you might have in passing out a leaflet in front of a shcool to inform parents and neighbors of the ugliness of Islam. You're likely not the kind of man who rejoices in a fight that ends in blood and pain and laughter that frightens people. I mention this to warn you that those you read about in the security of your abodes, those people will murder yo, and your chance of dying in a hospital in your old age will be lost. Even so simple a thing as leafleting in front of a school is a risk to your life. We're dealing with serious people, and the consequences of infuriating them by calling into question their beliefs can be fatal for you.
There's no justice in the world my God made. The ditch for my friend might await you instead, and that because you met a Moslem who didn't like the idea of you handing out a flier in front of a school saying his religion is not a religion of peace at all. I'm happy enough to meet men of that kind and celebrate my existence that comes and goes according to the nature of the savage God of my life, a God that demands that I live free of Him, that I accept that I too might not die in a ditch at all, that I might have to die in a bed somewhere instead. God help us.
The short point of this long post is to bring to your attention that should you stand in front of a school passing out notices to educate the people of your community about the slavery of Islam, you might end up in pain and afraid, bleding to death on a sidewalk.
sonofwalker,
Incredible post. Made me want to cry. Then I got over that initial reaction, as I hope and pray other Americans will, and decide to fight fire with fire. I assure you, the FIRST TIME a citizen inside of the USA is even injured while distributing "notices to educate the people of your community about the slavery of Islam" Muslims ALL over the US will be targeted. Mosques WILL burn, muslims WILL be butchered and die, and the final end of islam in America will begin.
Would it not be better, SOONER than LATER? Let's get it over with, so that people can go on with their lives, relegating islam as a scourge that died away, leaving us our happy lives "until it's our time to lie down and leave gently as we may."
those who would stand outside schools and other educational establishments handing out leaflets or rather booklets on the "dangers of Islam" would be brave indeed.
Even if accurately penned by such a person as Hugh, fully reverenced to academic and historical work. they would be arrested by a quick police call form a member of the school's administration. Or attacked by left wingers or worse islamiists.
Yet this work does needs to get done as a start to the "fight back"
Any schoolteachers who might already be aware, have to hold silence in the face of expulsion by those who hold the reins.
They need strong support to even be able to open their mouths.
That support must come in the form of uninpeachable, undeniable texts, which cannot be dismissed as racist propaganda.
We also need prime time TV discussion programs a la doctor phil where perhaps apostates discuss their reasons for leaving Islam.where islamic women talk about their enslavement and persecution. Programs which are not like BBC discussions where both sides of the arguments are fraudulently made by those who support only the BBC viewpoints.
programs where knowledgeable historians are consulted by the hosts on aspects of islamic history.
So yes open discussion of Islam by non muslims is sorely needed and will only serve to exposes the lies and deceits propagated by a multitude of islamic institutions to the public.
Kilroy Silk would have been an ideal first choice. Alas poor yorrick!
EVERYONE
Next time that some-one hands out a flier denouncing the teachings of Islam at schools or anywhere else, let's also have people document it as well. DON'T GO OUT ALONE and do this. Do it in groups, and always have a camcorder with you to record the reactions of any muslims who object or who get physical.
We are in a life or death situation here, so let's take all the precautions that we can to protect ourselves.
EVERYONE
Next time that some-one hands out a flier denouncing the teachings of Islam at schools or anywhere else, let's also have people document it as well. DON'T GO OUT ALONE and do this. Do it in groups, and always have a camcorder with you to record the reactions of any muslims who object or who get physical.
We are in a life or death situation here, so let's take all the precautions that we can to protect ourselves.
Yahudimrevenge: what about that Canadian guy who went to jail or got re-education or something for handing out flyers condemning Islam? He got punished for BY THE GOVERNMENT for trying to educate people about Islam.
You don't have to stand outside in the steet handing out flyers or leaflets if there is a real fear of arrest, intimidation or even violence from fanatics (violence which would, of course, expose the 'true face' of the Religion of Pieces.)
No, flyers and leaflets can safely be left anywhere where people will pick them up: on buses, subway trains, stations, in waiting rooms, in bars, pubs, coffee-houses, music venues, social clubs, community centres, church halls, libraries, theatres, independent movie-houses, hotel foyers, student lounges, galleries, malls, in parks, at the beach, anywhere where people wait or congregate.
Don't leave big piles of flyers unless you're sure the venue is sympathetic or 'secure'. A few copies discreetly left here and there will be more effective in the long run.
For years protesters in communist countries got their message out in this way and kept hope alive. We should do no less.
Benelux, thanks for your suggestions.
Guys, I think that there are more of those liberal question-all-even-terrorsts-who-kill-fiveyear-olds weirdos are around that you might think. I mean they might just be the ones attacking you for distributing those notes. They would definitely not take your side when looking that this problem..
I have posted the following before but received no response.
A similar scheme is to be tried in the UK.
My son is in the reception phase at junior school.
His islamic indoctrination classes will begin next year.
However I have decided to do something about this.
Can anybody in the Uk help me ?
I can get past the usuall racism allegation quite easily (I am of indian/sikh origin)
Can I boycott the classes ?
Can I demand to sit in ?
Can I view the materials they will present ?
Are there any organisations in the UK that can help ?
By the way on a side issue. i have recently had the idea to promote anti islamic web site by producing car window stickers.
I think you can all do this, give them to friends and family.
Regards
AI
AI-- it sounds as though all of those should be permissible. The more parents you can have join you in this effort, who refuse to be party to indoctrination of their children, the better.
Some people whom you might wish to contact:
Patrick Sookhdeo, The Barnabas Fund (in the U.K.)
Anwar Shaikh (google his name; he lives in Wales)
Ibn Warraq (www.secularislam.org)
Ali Sina (www.faithfreedom.org)
Google, as well, K. S. Lal, Sita Ram Goel, and in a local library, find the works of Sir Jadnath Sarkar for information about the Muslim conquest of India.
For the bumperstickers:
www.jihadwatch.org
www.secularislam.org
www.faithfreedom.org
www.dhimmitude.org
www.nojihad.org
This is all a preliminary suggestion.
From the column: "Organizers say the goal is to give teachers information on the Muslim culture. But opponents of the class don't want any part of it"....
1. What the hell for? Why do American teachers need to know about Islam? What good could possibly come out of it other than increased firearm sales after they learn what Islam's all about?
2. Parents would do themselves and their children a great service by not allowing them to g to school as long as Muslim racists are in there polluting the place.
For AI above, whose child is now facing indoctrination in a British school, to whom I recommended some scholars of Muslim rule in India (and in the hopes that this and other material may be circulated to Hindu and Sikh parents who may not be as inhibited as the English who are absurdly hypersensitive about appearing intolerant. Possibly the Hindu and Sikh population now in the U.K. will help to save England from islamization. One hopes.
[zimmi = dhimmi as Ramazan = Ramadan on the subcontinent].
“Islamic theology, therefore tells the true believer that his highest duty is to make "exertion (jihad) in the path of God", by waging war against infidel lands (dar-ul-harb) till they become part of the realm of Islam (dar-ul-Islam) and their populations are converted into true believers. After conquest the entire infidel population becomes theoretically reduced to the status of slaves of the conquering army. The men taken with arms are to be slain or sold into slavery and their wives and children reduced to servitude. As for the non-combatants among the vanquished, if they are not massacred outright, - as the canon lawyer Shaf'i declares to be the Qur'anic injunction,- it is only to give them a respite till they are so wisely guided as to accept the true faith.”
“The conversion of the entire population to Islam and the extinction of every form of dissent is the ideal of the Muslim State. If any infidel is suffered to exist in the community, it is as a necessary evil, and for a transitional period only. Political and social disabilities must be imposed on him, and bribes offered to him from the public funds, to hasten the day of his spiritual enlightenment and the addition of his name to the roll of true believers...”
“A non-Muslim therefore cannot be a citizen of the State; he is a member of a depressed class; his status is a modified form of slavery. He lives under a contract (zimma, or "dhimma") with the State: for the life and property grudgingly spared to him by the commander of the faithful he must undergo political and social disabilities, and pay a commutation money (jaziya*- *see ritual degradation of Hindus during payment of the jizya in documents p. ). In short, his continued existence in the State after the conquest of his country by the Muslims is conditional upon his person and property made subservient to the cause of Islam.”
“He must pay a tax for his land (kharaj), from which the early Muslims were exempt; he must pay other exactions for the maintenance of the army, in which he cannot enlist even if he offers to render personal service instead of paying the poll-tax; and he must show by humility of dress and behavior that he belongs to s subject class. No non-Muslim can wear fine dresses, ride on horseback or carry arms; he must behave respectfully and submissively to every member of the dominant sect.”
“The zimmi is under certain legal disabilities with regard to testimony in law courts, protection under criminal law, and in marriage…he cannot erect new temples, and has to avoid any offensive publicity in the exercise of his worship…Every device short of massacre in cold blood was resorted to in order to convert heathen subjects. In addition to the poll-tax and public degradation in dress and demeanor imposed on them, the non-Muslims were subjected to various hopes and fears. Rewards in the form of money and public employment were offered to apostates from Hinduism. The leaders of Hindu religion and society were systematically repressed, to deprive the sect of spiritual instruction, and their religious gatherings and processions were forbidden in order to prevent the growth of solidarity and sense of communal strength among them. No new temple was allowed to be built nor any old one to be repaired, so that the total disappearance of Hindu worship was to be merely a question of time. But even this delay, this slow operation of Time, was intolerable to many of the more fiery spirits of Islam, who tried to hasten the abolition of ‘infidelity’ by anticipating the destructive hand of Time and forcibly pulling down temples.”
“When a class are publicly depressed and harassed by law and executive caprice alike, they merely content themselves with dragging on an animal existence. With every generous instinct of the soul crushed out of them, the intellectual culture merely adding a keen edge to their sense of humiliation, the Hindus could not be expected to produce the utmost of which they were capable; their lot was to be hewers of wood and drawers of water to their masters, to bring grist to the fiscal mill, to develop a low cunning and flattery as the only means of saving what they could of their own labor. Amidst such social conditions, the human hand and the human spirit cannot achieve their best; the human soul cannot soar to its highest pitch. The barrenness of the Hindu intellect and the meanness of spirit of the Hindu upper classes are the greatest condemnation of Muhammadan rule in India. The Islamic political tree, judged by its fruit was an utter failure”d
dSir Jadunath Sarkar "History of Aurangzib" Vol. 3, 1920, pp. 284-91, 296-297.
Hugh, please do as was requested in writing information that can be used as intellectual, non-racist ammo. I printed off all your questions. I need answers and answers I can find ANYTIME not just when I 'm lucky enough to see it on this website.
Also, the idea for children and adolescent literature is wonderful. My daughters have several Muslim friends at school and I would like to have materials that talk frankly and openly about Islam. It's a battle for our culture and our existence. Morally, I don't see you have any justification for refusing to do something you are so well suited for and that is so desperately needed. (Enjoy the guilt for a moment and then get busy!)
I will do what I can, fl WF, at some point. But, despite textual evidence to the contrary, I am no gentleman of leisure. I donate my time --a great deal of my time -- to the cause, and have done so for some time, and in various ways, not all of them apparent. But when one ekes out an existence as a freelance this or that, the problem of making a living remains a bother and a time-consumer. Now, had ad I my druthers, there would be no problem at all. I would earn well-merited and fabulous amounts teaching reading and writing to a handpicked group of grownups, for a one or two-week course, to be conducted at some paradisiacal place of plain living and high thinking, with particular attention given to all those forgotten and indispensable subjects, such as prosody and figures of speech, and I would direct the class in taking apart a sentence or a paragraph or a poem, to see what makes it tick, and to give a name to this or that technique, and then put the whole thing together again so that the members of the class could employ the same techniques in their own efforts, and it would all be wonderful. But that would require finding a place for this Old School to meet, and to find the right students, and so on. It could be done, but not just now, I suspect. But that remains Plan B.
Plan A was revealed a few months ago, with
my casual appeal for eleemosynary assistance here at jihadwatch. I saw myself as a cross between Oliver asking for more and Andersen's Little Match Girl, but no one else seemed to agree or took the hint. Personne.
One mo' time? Sure, especially since this thread is about to be pushed into the back where few go to look. Here goes:
If there is a potential Maecenas (or even a few mini-Maecenases), including someone with a nice foundation to support the habit, who agrees that what I am doing here has merit and use, and further agrees that more of this, in the form of a book, would be worth supporting, kindly contact me. But only, please, if in fact you have the wherewithal; this appeal is not meant for those who should hold on to their own pennies. To such a Maecenas I can reveal further details about certain longer works that I would like to complete, sooner rather than later --okay, I confess, I've started both of them, but I can't get close to finishing them without putting paid, in every sense, to the knocking at the door, not by the Person from Porlock, but by the Warden coming to haul me away to the Marshalsea, that constantly interrupts and interferes. Get my drift?
Furnishing panem quotidianum remains a problem and a puzzlement for some in this world, and I am one in that some.
End of Appeal for Funds. I feel like NPR, only I’m much nicer and I read more.
In making this appeal, nothing is lost save honor -- and that I jettisoned a long time ago.
Voletti,
I'll tell you why, because hindus and buddhist (and all the other religions) don't have a group of rich jihadists, posing as a anti-discrimmination board (CAIR), pushing and pushing and pushing for islami to be "understood".
Sorry mistakes in above post; I meant to say:
Pushing for their religion to be "understood", wheras islam does.