Elder Stone sounds like a classic dhimmi. A press release from the Anti-Defamation League, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:
NEW YORK, Oct. 20 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Reacting to a visit by a delegation from the U.S. Presbyterian Church in Beirut with members of the terrorist group Hezbollah, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today said it was "deeply disturbing that leaders of the Presbyterian Church would seek out a meeting with members of a terrorist organization responsible for attacks that have killed both Americans and Israelis." Hezbollah is on the U.S. State Department's watch-list of global terrorist organizations.The meeting between Sheikh Nabil Qauq, the leader of Hezbollah in south Lebanon, and a delegation of 24 leaders of the U.S. Presbyterian Church currently on a fact-finding tour in the Middle East, was broadcast Oct. 17 on Al Manar, Hezbollah's satellite television network. During the broadcast, at least one member of the delegation was shown praising Hezbollah. Elder Ronald Stone, who identified himself as representing the East Liberty Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh, said, "As an elder of our church, I'd like to say that according to my recent experience, relations and conversations with Islamic leaders are a lot easier than dealings and dialogue with Jewish leaders." Elder Stone went on to praise Hezbollah: "We treasure the precious words of Hezbollah and your expression of goodwill towards the American people."
Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National director, and Rabbi Gary Bretton-Granatoor, ADL director of Interfaith Affairs, issued the following statement:
It is deeply disturbing that leaders of the Presbyterian Church would meet with the leader of a terrorist organization that is directly responsible for attacks against Americans and Israelis, and that has repeatedly denounced America and Israel as enemies of Islam. It is especially troubling and offensive that at least one member of the delegation praised Hezbollah, telling them it was easier to dialogue with terrorists than with Jews when it comes to Middle East issues.
Coming in an atmosphere where interfaith relations between Presbyterians and Jews have been sorely tested by the church's proposal to disinvest from Israel, it is disturbing that the Presbyterian leaders made the irresponsible decision to meet with Hezbollah, an organization whose self-stated goal is the total destruction of the Jewish State and the establishment of Islamic rule over Jerusalem. It is outrageous that, rather than seeking out moderate voices working for positive change in the Middle East, the Presbyterian leaders decided to seek out the leader of a terrorist organization.
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Since its founding in 1982, Hezbollah has been responsible for hundreds of attacks against Israelis and Americans, including the 1983 suicide bomb attack on the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, which killed 200. Hezbollah also attacked the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 1992 and the Israeli cultural center in Buenos Aires in 1994. While continuing to carry out cross-border attacks against Israel, Hezbollah has more recently contributed to anti- Semitic incitement throughout the Middle East, using its satellite station to broadcast anti-Semitic propaganda. According to the U.S. State Department, Hezbollah receives financing and other support from Syria and Iran.
The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.
Um... correction: the attack on the Marine Barracks in Lebanon killed 241 US Marines and injured who-knows-how-many thousands. I joined the Marines around that time, a time when we didn't know that a certain historical figure insisted that the Marines sleep on land instead of safely offshore on ships. Later said figure and his henchmen organized SALES OF MISSILES with the same MURDERING JIHADIS (Iran-Syria-Hezbollah), even after they laughed and announced in public that "two martyrs defeated the entire United States Marine Corps."
Now certain people are saying the walking disaster that "organized" the nation-building mission in Lebanon and micromanaged it unto defeat (but don't worry; he invaded Grenada two days later) needs his picture on US currency? I don't think so.
Alright, let's hear the usual litany of lies, dissembling, and blame-shifting.
By the way, the same day the Jihadis of Lebanon killed 70 French Marines.
No comment on what KJ has written above.
As for the leaders of the Presbyterian Church... ...do they really reflect their broader constituency and how large is it?
The two American churches that are the latest to hop onto the divestiture from Israel bandwagon are operating from the far too widely-held, but extremely naive view that the Palestinians are the weak, pitiable underdogs and that they can, as one self-important church leader claimed, bring peace to the Middle East by making such a move.
If so, they may find themselves as part of a rear guard movement. A post last week on Access Middle East reports that European diplomats serving in the Occupied Territories are telling PA representatives that if they want any sympathy from them vis a vis the Israelis' recent clean out of terrorist nests, that they had better stop bombing civilians.
So, if peace does break out in the near future, it's more likely because the EU ain't amused by the misappropriation of aid money and the PA's tacit support for their fellow terrorists operating within Europe's borders than by any token acts by two Christian denominations,who I suspect are dwarfed in size by the support Israel gets from some US Christian quarters, financially and politically.
Europe aside, there are whispers in the Canadian press that the Canadian government is, of late, less sympathetic/less "neutral" to the Palestinian side of the matter these days too, for similar reasons, so maybe the pendulum is, at long last swinging back. (Hell, even some PA bigshots like the prime minister Arafat undermined and fired, are saying the Intifada has been counterproductive and that it was planned long before Sharon's famous visit to the temple mount.)
Last thought... ...is Hezbollah not on the US list of terrorist organizations (I think they are in Canada, just as Hamas is), and, if so, what sanctions would Elder Stone & Co. be subject to?
The precious words of hisbollox and their goodwill? Shurely shome mishtake here JW?
Or should the headline be -
"Elder stoned trying to dialogue with islamic lunatics", or even -
"Stoned elder praises islamic fascists, synod orders investigation into drug-taking amongst ministers"
They're taking the piss, aren't they?, go on tell me it's all a joke really, isn't it?, isn't it?
No, saoirse, I'm sure the Good Elder is deadly serious. He is also extremely out of touch with reality if he doesn't know what Hezbollah ("the Party of God") does and who gives them the money to do it.
"Shurely shome mishtake?" Don't tell me you read Frank, not after that pathetic piece they recently published, poking jest at the Americans for keeping poor, innocent Yusuf Islam out of their country for his association with Hamas.
No Waterdragon, you can rest assured that it's not Americans I'm taking the piss out of!
That phrase is often used over here for journalists who write all their reports from the pub and therefore are totally out of touch with reality, just as I think the elder is, whether or not he's a bit too partial to the parsnip wine on sale at the church social.
Either that or he's some kind of presbyterian monk who's just emerged from a lifetime of solitude without prior access to newspapers, tv, radio or what have you and just started tuning in to the bbc world service!
This is no mere dhimmi at work, this is a clinical case of suicidal masochism, he needs treatment badly.
If you think the dhimmitude of the Presbyterians is bad, wait 'til you see this:
http://www.forusa.org/programs/iraq/iraqphotoproject/iraq-photoproject-statement.html
Messages of remorse and apology
We apologize for the torture and deaths of Iraqis at the hands of our government
We weep for the innocent Iraqi people who suffer under American occupation
We are mortified about the suffering inflicted on the Iraqi people in our name
We ask forgiveness from the Iraqi people for not being able to stop the invasion of their land
We apologize from our hearts for the pain and humiliation our country is causing the Iraqi people
We Americans are profoundly ashamed of what our government has done to Iraq
We Americans apologize from our hearts for the deaths of so many Iraqi people
Our hearts overflow with tears for the suffering of the Iraqi people
With deep shame, we apologize for the torture, injuries and deaths of Iraqi prisoners
We are filled with shame for the suffering our fellow countrymen have brought to Iraq
Our hearts ache at the destruction and suffering Americans have brought the people of Iraq
We are sorry from the depth of our hearts for the pain our country has caused the Iraqi people
Good grief!, why don't they do a proper job of it and show their solidarity with all the poor iraquis by having a big group self-beheading session?
They could even video it and send it to the jihadis saying "look how we empathise with you and your perfectly understandable cause, see, we've saved you all the trouble of capturing us worthless dirty infidels and done your good work for you"
There's self-hatred and there's really hating yourself, these loons are at the cutting edge of dhimmitude.
Islamochristians, not a few of "Palestinian" descent, have carefully clawed their way to the top of the Presybterian church bureacracy. There, with likeminded non-Muslims who, having lost their faith in Christianity, have discovered a new faith -- and in defending that new faith, Islam, from those who would attack it -- they have found a new lease on their own spiritual life. What extraordinary sleight of belief.
Mr Khan
huge coverage on tim blair's website.
In fact they had to close it down due to a troll invasion. it is now up again.
Other sources quote these churches as heading to bankruptcy at an alarming rate. they have to sell off stocks and are probably looking for handouts from the arabs.
Speaking as a Presbyterian, albeit a member of a smaller, more conservative body, the mainline Protestant churches have been useless for a couple generations now. They decided they had to get in line with the spirit of the age back in the early 20th century; castigated all those who wanted to hold to the traditional faith as "UGH! Fundamentalists!"; and now that they will not stand for Biblical Christianity, they fall for just about everything.
Kepha1:
your status report on the US Presbyterian Church reminds me of an episode on Yes, Prime Minister of many years ago, when they had to nominate a new Archbishop of Canterbury. One of the potential nominees was a Muslim. Rationale: at least he believed in God.
Saroise:
So that's where the Franksters get the phrase from. And no, I didn't think you were "taking the piss out of the Americans". Frank mag's reporters, who usually don't discriminate when it comes to targets (they target everyone), are quite gormless when it comes to Islamofascists and Israel. Or they were just in a rush to fill empty space and didn't bother to check whether there was good reason for the US giving YI the bounce when he tried to invade their territory.
Waterdragon - you'll have to pardon my ignorance, but I don't know who these frank/frankster chappies are.
The situation is much the same with the church of england here in the UK, they've taken so much chritianity out of it that they're really now simply a humanist association, and are puzzled why their congregation has shrunk so much.
Their approach, naturally, is more of the same, trying harder to "fit in" with secular consumerist society.
I rememder the episode of Yes Minister, it's spectacularly appropriate nowadays. I fully expect the C of E to do something very similar in the not too distant future.
Actually, I earnestly pray that the Mainline denominations will turn around and re-appropriate the traditional faith. A century plus of "moderate" Christianity coming from them has been bad for all of us. Few appreciate the fact that the Deutsche Christen movement of the Third Reich years, with its "Aryan" Jesus, represented the theologically liberal church that gave us the so-called higher criticism of the Bible. In the mid-20th century, the Mainline denominations bent over backwards to see who could declare the impoverished People's Communes of Communist China to be heaven on earth. Now, they're embracing Islam at its worst.