From Reuters, with thanks to Nicolei, who observes: "The US government, which has been financing the building of Islamic schools outside the US, should take note." Indeed.
Reuters Karachi Oct 8: They are considered a new breed of Islamic fundamentalists. They study at top British and American schools yet abhor western values, advocate a pan-Islamic state and favour the removal of Pakistan’s pro-US government.Militancy and violence is not part of their agenda; they want to achieve their “lofty goals” through peaceful and non-violent struggle.
But analysts say such men, fired by the passion of an Islamic renaissance, stand on a thin line dividing political and violent struggle.
Hizb ut-Tahrir (Liberation Party), an international Islamic group with roots from England to Central Asia, is a recent addition to myriad radical organisations striving to enforce “true Islam” in Pakistan, a poor South Asian nation.
The group was outlawed in Pakistan in November 2003, just three years after it started operations, but its members continue undeterred, distributing party literature and holding small meetings in efforts to expand their base.
Pakistan, an ally of the United States in the war on terror, banned several militant Islamic groups, but most re-emerged under new names. Hizb-ut-Tahrir has refused to change its identity despite the closure of offices and the arrest of several members.
British and US nationals of Pakistani origin comprise the backbone of this secretive group formed in Jerusalem in 1953.
It wants to establish a supra-Islamic state on the model of the caliphate as it existed in the early days of Islam.
The group came to Pakistan through second-generation Pakistanis living in the West, particularly Britain and the US. They claim they had supporters in Pakistan for a long time but formal operations took longer to establish.
Many members abandoned what they call the luxuries of the West to come to Pakistan to live among fellow Muslims and work for the country’s transformation into a puritanical Islamic society of their dreams.
“In terms of living standards, England is better. You don’t confront problems such as water shortages, power failures there,” a Hizb member, who works as an executive at a bank, told Reuters, requesting anonymity.
“But you cannot safeguard the Islamic way of life in a western society. You become alienated,” said the 32-year-old, who migrated from his birthplace, London, to Pakistan — the country of his parents — two years ago.
“We believe the change will come in the Muslim world from places like Pakistan, where an overwhelming number of people are Islamic-minded,” he said in a clipped British accent.
By all means these Hizb ut Tahir Weirdos should be encouraged to leave the West and 'set up shop'
in the land of their fathers -Pakistan. Hope they enjoy the plumbing [or lack of it] and getting picked up by Mushie's zealous police - a few electrical charges to their testicles will have them screaming for 'their rights ' as British Citizens. Too late, me old cocks, Allah will have to provide and your torturers are fellow Muslims so you can try verses from the Koran on THEM!
The supra-Islamic state would not be static. We all should understand that if would be predatory towards its neighbors until, if allowed, it engulfed the whole of the earth. A nuclear-armed supra-Islamic state should not be permitted.
Islamists are the scourge of mankind. And for those of of you who think Hizb ut-Tahrir represents the minority of muslims, think again. I work with muslim that have graduated with mbas and phds from oxford and stanford. I have asked them how they really feel. I pretend to sympathise with them to get their honest view. And this is what i have learned - they hate US policy and the American way of life, they support Hamas and other radical organisations (some of my muslim friends actually give them money thru their mosque), they believe a muslim nation will be formed one day on infidel lands, they despise women with rights, they pretend not to drink and be pious but are the biggest bigots i have ever met, they believe all non-believers are doomed to go to hell, they think osama bin ladin is true to his faith - they are all seriously deluded!..
Bush says give them liberties, teach them democracy and they will change their ways. I beg to differ. I have met muslims born and raised in the US and the UK. They have been completely brainwashed by their fundementalist parents and their mullahs in the mosque. there is no solution but to fight them every step of the way. this "islamic renaissance" must be stopped before its too late. wake up people, before we end up like the indian subcontinent which was raped and splintered by a bunch of islamic barbarians.
"But you cannot safeguard the Islamic way of life in a western society. You become alienated,” said the 32-year-old"
Kindly clarify how I can help alienate them some more . . .please???
“In terms of living standards, England is better. You don’t confront problems such as water shortages, power failures there,” a Hizb member, who works as an executive at a bank, told Reuters, requesting anonymity"
Gee, DDDUUUHHHHHH! Wonder why Hizb member?! Have you figured out WHY living standards are WAY, WAY, WAY better than whatever Islamic craphole you were whelped in????? Ummmmmm, golly gee whiz Gomer! Could it be coz Islam can only create misery, poverty, destitution? No, of course not, it must be coz of dem dere Jooos! Yeah, dat's why. Not Islam. Nooooooooo! Not Islam. The perfect, the wonderful. ROTFLMAO!
It's time for the government to offer the people who don't want to adapt to the western way of life a one-way ticket to an Islamic country of their choice.
If governments would open their eyes, they'd see the reality of how the Islamists expect us to accept them, make adjustments to our system to suit them, but they're not prepared to give an inch in return.
Morgane,
Although I do agree with you that they should bugger-off to Pakistan with all hast, and although I would happily see them off(after stuffing them into a suitcase and lobbing it into the cargo-bay), I really don't like the thought that jihadists are studying in the west, learning advanced forms of science/technology and other skills, and then taking it to the islamic world and sharing this newfound knowledge with their muslim brothers. Every new thing they learn will at some point in the future be used against us, we should keep them as the illiterate neanderthals we know most of them as now.
Sickeningly contradictary isn't it, how they are using western progression, against the west, so they can destroy all our cultures,laws and values and replace it all with the laws from their savage book of horrors???!!!???!?!?!?!
Khalid Duran (a moderate Muslim who often collaborates with Steven Emerson and Daniel Pipes) made an interesting comment about the Muslim Brotherhood: Nearly all of them are scientists and engineers. For some reason, radical Muslim organizations have more difficulty recruiting among Muslims who study arts and humanities (some distinguished exceptions are Tariq Ramadan and Raschid Ghannouchi).
As a scientist myself, I find it surprising that someone who is so thoroughly trained in analytical thinking can still prefer the Koran, especially because it is often Westerners from the arts and humanities that so often serve as useful idiots for these radicals.
On the other hand, I can't see why a Muslim who studies Shakespeare and Homer can continue to live in denial with regards to the cultural impoverishment Muhammad has bestowed on the Muslim world.
When your kid doesn't get an arts education, it shows...
Muslims in the West may study medicine and engineering -- applied science. Theoretical science, disinterested science, science in the sense of trying to discover how the mind works, or DNA, or what is the possible explanation for the origin of the universe, all that sort of thing -- are not subjects that a Believer can as readily engage in. The further from the mechanical or the technical, the closer to Western ideas of science, where one might engage in the investigation of the nature of life, or the origin of the Universe, by studying DNA or the properties of sub-atomic particles, the more uneasy the fit with the belief-system of Islam.
It is not an accident that “Islamic science” essentially died out a thousand years ago – that is, died out a few hundred years after the initial Muslim conquests of non-Muslim lands and peoples. As those peoples – Christians and Jews – were in most cases allowed to live, but only in a system of such disabilities that imposed upon the non-Muslims a condition of permanent humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity, it took a few hundred years for them to be demographically reduced, and to reach a point at which they were no longer part of what passed in the Muslim realms for intellectual activity. That helps explain what happened to Islamic science. And when the “gates of ijtihad” slammed shut, when Islam was frozen in time, and for all time – by the commentators and jurisconsults within Islam – that too helped to push science to the side of Islamic life and thought which, save for some poets, was taken up with Qur'anic commentators, the "science" of hadith, and similar pursuits.
One might read Rodney Stark's last book on why, despite the dogmas of Christianity, modern science emerged from Christian Europe. And despite the dogmas of Judaism, when Jews in Europe were emancipated, or permitted to study and to make contributions to secular subjects, the results were -- well, check the recent news from Stockholm for a hint.
After reading numerous articles, watching numerous debates, listining to ranting Islamic radicals, all trying to justify the wonders of Islam, I have come to my own conclusion about Muslims and Islam. I am of the opinion that the Muslim Islamic religion, over the last 1500 years has evolved with the Muslims to a point that it has become genetic.It has been bred into them. No amount of discussion can ever change or sway their mindset, they cannot change their believes any more than I can leap over the moon. It is naive of anyone to think that the western culture can win the Muslims over by just understanding them and showing "love and compassion". I'm not the brightest bulb in the building but, I know something is rotten when it stinks, I know a lie when I hear it, and I know evil when I see it. And when I look at what has been going on with Muslims and Islam I smell stink, I hear lies, And I see evil. Indeed the war is going to be a long one.
Morgane:
Muslims are convinced that no matter how depressing the outlook may look for Islam, final victory is guaranteed by allah. It is pre-ordained. It is this fatalism that is the major cause of the intellectual lethargy of Muslims. It is this fatalism that everything is the will of allah, that prevents them from honestly examining themselves even after 9/11, Beslan and other atrocities. They do not regard these atrocities as their fault, as it is the will of allah, as he works his way to final victory over the Kaffir. Why allah needs victory over his own creation, is something no Muslim scholar has presumably asked himself.
Muslims are so brainwashed that they live in a world of their own. I remember newsreels of Russians hysterical and sad over the death of Stalin. It took decades for Russians to recover and come to sanity, and realise what Stalin had done to them. For Muslims it is far far worse. There is going to be no easy de-programming for Muslims.
That leaves us with little or no choice except to make the West as inhospitable for islamic practice as possible. I do not see why we should alter our time honoured traditions to accomodate a fascist culture that is intent on destroying civilisation. It is imperative that we make as much fuss as possible when muslims intend to buld yet another mosque or wish to broadcast the azhan over loud speakers. Further, all muslim immigration, whether primary or secondary, should be stopped as a political necessity. It is not to our advantage that enemy personnel be allowed in at a time of war.
Just to add insult to injury,org.'s like CAIR love to blame the USA for 9/11/01 because of a weak security system and open policy to foreign students.
Now that the doors being watched,Mr.Hooper and his Ilk scream racism when non-Citizens are stopped at Airports and border points.
Which one is it Mr.Hooper,are you angry that 26,000 workers in the WTC towers managed to escape the horror,or do you only parrot the usual tripe about Islamophobia when a potential Jihadist
is prevented from slaughtering non-Muslims in NorthAmerica when profiled at point of entry.
I saw Cats Stevens on Larry King,he used the Bible to explain away the hateful verses in the Quran,he didn't even denounce the verses,maybe in fear of Islamists that watched the show and will kill him as a apostate for making the West see the true Islam and Quranic teachings of violence and hate.
I am quite surprised that more people do not refer to Muslims as "Mohammedans", a term that was used by the greater majority of Europeans for centuries.
There are 2 reasons, currently that I can think of for bringing this term back into vogue: (1) The Mohammedans decry Chrisitans for identifying with Christ by using the term "Christian" and yet, for Mohammedans, Mohammed, the so-called prophet [small p - don't you just hate it when the PC folks refer to him as "The" (capital "T") Prophet (capital "P")?] is almost referred to as their god. There appears to be very little difference between Mohammed the so-called prophet and Allah, their so-called god.
The second reason I recommend that the term Mohammedans become more used (in lieu of "Moslem" or "Muslim") is that the use of the term Mohammedan by the formerly Christian West in centuries past infuriated the living heck out of these people.
So, wouldn't it be nice if we begin to use the more accurate description of them as Mohammedans? We can contrast that usage with all of the derogatory terms that they possess in their language for us non-Mohammedans. And, we can refer to Dante's "Divine Comedy" where he places Mohammed in the very lowest depths of Hell. Interesting, is it not?
So, what do you say fellow jihadi watchers? Let us all make a conscious effort to refer to these Islamic religious as Mohammedans. It is the more correct term historically and it is a term that would NEVER be used by the Politically Correct folks in the West. Need another reason?
This piece reminds me a little of something I read on MEMRI.org, but it was anti-Jihadist Muslims complaining about some self-proclaimed "moderate" Sheik who was caught out when he rendered an opinion that Jihad against the US occupiers in Iraq was lawful. They noted his motivation/opinion was possibly linked to the US seizure of about $2.5 million in assets he had control of that were linked to terrorism from a Jordanian bank and they also noted that the big fat hypocrit lived in safety in Dubai or somesuch, never offering his sons up for Jihad, rather sending them and his daughters to school in that other great Satan country, the UK.
I'm old enough to remember when a significant number of the immigrants Canada received from Pakistan had medical degrees (or other professions) and were looking for a better place to live and raise their families. The concern then, was that Pakistan had foot the bill for educating these doctors and was losing their skills to a far wealthier country.
--President John Quincy Adams on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of American independence
I'm not surprised. The "moderate" biggest muslim country in the world has a lot of educated, incl. western educated people who simply hates the west, especially the US. They are mostly young, in their thirties, definitely not the old guard. I don't know whether they have an organization as mentioned in this article. But there is a political party which gained quite a few seats this last election which campaigned on it's 'clean, non corrupt' image and also on their social activities. Interestingly, in their campaign, they were able to attract non muslims to campaign for them - so good are they in hiding their real intention as written in their charter. As usual, people don't read charters. They just see what is shown by this party's slick pr machine. And just the other day it's party head was elected head of the people's assembly. Frightening!
The US should stop donating money to anything, even if it only, remotely smells of islam.
Stop giving scholarships to muslims.
I know for a fact that there are at present people living in the US and transferred with their family from their home country by the American company they are working for,to the US, enjoying an american salary, free education, and yet still HATE the us.
How do you cull these people from the ones who do not hate the us/west??????????
Gee, surprise, surprise! The Mohammedans were a beastly lot even back then (re Hulegu's reference to JQ Adams writings). The EUnuchs would have us believe the Mohbots are nasty and feral only because of the US and Israel. So what gives? I don't think Israel existed back then, and the US wasn't a big player in the world either. So what's the reason for the Mohammedan's vile and disgusting behaviour even back then? Hmmm, who to blame? Not Islam, of course. No, never Islam. Perfect, spiritual, ethical, peaceful Islam. Funny how some choose to forget. Refusing to acknowledge the basic facts - that Islam is evil and bloodthirsty. For its entire 1400 year history. A scourge on our poor planet.