Video Said to Show British Hostage Bigley Killed

Watch the bullet tide roll in now!!!

nah Rikki...

watch all the sh%t that's gonna flow PM Blair's and Bush's way....

The BaBbleC has confirmed it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3727658.stm

I wish the UK people would take to the streets in protests, but it will just be more blame directed at Bush and Blair rather than at the precious jihadis who slaugther and kill.

With a bit of luck now , Kens insufferable bellend of a brother will start spitting his loudmouth corruptive fury at the islamofilth that DECAPITATED HIS BROTHER.

Personally I'm glad they've killed him, I'm sick of seeing his emotionless family on TV, and in the papers.
I'm sick of hearing Paul Bigley and his gutless brothers creeping up to the kidnappers and offering heart, anus , bed and breakfast to them, while critisizing Blair/Bush and blaming the whole shebang on Israel.
I'm sick of seeing the old man sniffling and pleading for Tony Blair to release the women prisoners (yeah, like you're so worth the release of 2 bio-weapon experts), while being fed a islamo-fascist script to try and sway gullible viewers.
I'm sick of seeing his young thai wife (who he probably bought while on holiday the orient for a couple of indian rupees and a can of sardines)begging,and offering- and I quote - to become a buddhist nun to secure his release (quite what that would've acheived is beyond even the most LSD-minded individual).
I'm sick of all the islamo-filth propaganda : Arafat and Gadapphi appealing for his release, the British Muslim council doing their pointless visit to Bagdhad, which acheived precisely NOTHING, but even so they made damn sure they got a press conference on every single UK news outlet first, so they could paint islam/muslims in the best possible light, despite all the nasty shit proving otherwise (can anyone say backlash).
And I'm sick to death of news reporters assuring us that muslims and christians around Liverpool have "united in prayer for Mr.Bigley and his family" followed by the same recording of a bunch of muslims sticking their unwashed asses in the air , as we are told ,with full certainty, that it's Bigley they're praying for.... the expression MY ARSE comes to mind)

And then of course there's the "public outrage" at Billy Connolly for saying what we're all thinking :

"Aren't you like me???Every time I see Ken Bigley on the news , I just feel like telling his kidnappers to Get the hell on with it!!!

Could we please have another Liverpool troll (steveUK, remember?) walk in and enlighten us about the 'facts' in Liverpool? About how the Brits in their dozens marched upto the local mosque...to learn about islam!

Man, I'm all for a street demo against these schmucks!

Drishnya,
After careful consideration I agree with you, but bare in mind a lot of people are pissed off at the terrorist for kidnapping him.... british public always favour the hard-working pensioner, and they see it as an old man near retirement getting killed for helping build Iraq. Lots of angry people... even more now.

Bigley's brother blame the band of merry Al-Quaeda/Zarqawi men for his brother's beheading?

Based on media coverage I've seen, a very, very long shot.

What exactly was Ken Bigley doing in Iraq? Was he there for "reconstruction" or was he there prior to the fall of Saddam for whatever reason?

One thing about the Thai wife -- unless she's a Muslim from Thailand's south -- unlike her brother-in-law she may know a thing or two about who to blame.

Qur’an 9:34 “Believers, there are many (Christian) monks and (Jewish) rabbis who in falsehood devour the wealth of mankind and hinder (men) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in Allah’s Cause. (Muhammad) announce unto them tidings of a painful torture. On the Day [of Doom] heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the Fire of Hell. It will be branded on their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs. ‘This is the (treasure) which you hoarded for yourselves: now taste it!’”

it is not the Christians and Jews who do not help the poor it is the arabs who hord their gold and will find the painful fires!!!

cause we have bigger arrows now you crazy mussis WHO CUT OFF MENS HEADS IN THE NAME OF YOU ROCK god?? AND KILL JEWISH BABYS WHILE SWIMMING IN A POOL??

LOOK AROUND YOU AND SEE WHO GOD FAVORS WHO HAS THE LANDS THAT ARE RICH WITH FOOD TO FEED THE PEOPLE AND THE POOR NOT THE ARAB LANDS IT IS NOTHING BUT DEATH AND WOULD TRY TO PUT THAT DEATH ON THE IRAQI PEOPLE WHO WILL FARM THE LAND AND MAKE IT FLOWER WITH WEALTH AND THE GREED OF THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST LIKE IRAN AND OTHERS WOULD TRY TO STEAL IT FROM THEM???

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
Notice how they cut off the mans head off after they killed the Israelis to take the Attention
away from the Deaths of the Many??

Israel Know Our Hearts are with you in this Grief and stand with you May God ease the Pain and give you Strength and Courage to stand and Fight and give you VICTORY AMEN

I know it sounds harsh but he knew the risks invold when he to work in iraq, only his greed for the vast amounts of money that the workers can earn, and the soilders know excatly that they are trained to go to war and pertentially die for us, they know this when they join up to any of the armys of this crazy world that we live in.

Mohammedanism is the monkey-see, monkey-do religion. Muhammad cut off many heads and ordered many beheadings. So his more savage adherents cut off heads too in order to terrorize the non Muslim.

Terrorism via beheadings: Another one of Muhammed's fine "examples"

Rikki-

I couldn't agree with you more!
Good day!

Mr Bigley refused armed guards,he didn't listen even to warnings by Iraqis and because of his stupidity [and greed] his two friends died horrendous deaths. He howled and grovelled for his life and the Baghdad Butchers used him to gain
full media attention whilst his brother was a willing tool for Al Jazeera. That 16yr girl hanged in Iran showed far more courage in the face of death than Kenneth Bigley.[Remember, HIS TWO FRIENDS HAD JUST BEEN SLAUGHTERED!!] Do you grovel for your life from killers who have beheaded your friends -what sort of man are you??
Maybe he was threatened with torture, maybe he had a gun to his head[ which which have been a less painful and speedier death]. As Shakespeare put it 'A coward dies many times before his death'
which Bigley did. Of course he didn't want to die -who does -but you didn't see the two Americans grovelling in this shameful way. Was not impressed by Kenneth or his brother although the young Thai wife will be left comfortably off,
noticed she was savvy enough NOT to set foot in Iraq. Paul Bigley will no doubt be saving his venom for Bush & Blair but refuses to face facts, his brother DIDN'T HAVE TO BE IN IRAQ AND HE WAS BEHEADED BY ZARQAWI NOT BY COALITION TROOPS.
Put the BLAME on GREED,STUPIDITY and PSYCHOPATHIC
MURDERERS,Paul Bigley!

A MUST READ FOR ALL NON-MUSLIMS

It isnt surprising to see that almost all of the participants of this site hate or have a negative image of Islam. I dont blame you. These savages have disgraced their religion and all of its followers. After 911, during which I was in Junior highdschool and saw the entire incident, i was very ashamed at my religion. For months afterwards I considered myself an Atheist and hated all religions. Then I started doing independent research and found out the truth. You may have heard this before and have probably gotten sick of hearing this, but please just lend me a few seconds of your life and realize that THIS IS NOT ISLAM. Terrorists, scholars, and illiterate savages may have convicne you that this is what Islam is about but please believe a proud Muslim Ameircan, who is willing to defend and die for liberty, when he tells you that this is not true.

I agree with many things which Mr. Spencer says in his columns and books

1) Islam has a violent history
2) All Muslims are not terrorists, but certainly all terrorists are Muslims.
3) There must be reform
4) Jihad is the main threat to the world

He's right on the money on these, but what I dont agree with is how he misrepresents islamic principles

1) Jihad

Im going to start with the big one. Mr. Spencer will has NEVER said this and Im 100% sure that you have never heard this so please read carefully
Jihad can only be declared under 3 circumstances

A) When there's a direct threat against a nation

Common sense: A nation must defend itself

B) When Islam is being threatened

Self-explanatory

C)(read this one very closely) WHEN THERE ARE INJUSTICES BEING DONE TO ANOTHER NATION, MUSLIM OR NON-MUSLIM

ALL OF THESE ARE ENTIRELY TRUTHFUL.......please dont accuse me of lying......check the koran or the hadith yourself or ask Mr. Spencer

WHEN A NATION IS IN JIHAD IT CANNOT TARGET WOMEN,CHILDREN, THE ELDERLY, THE HANDICAPPED, AND CONNOT EVEN BUT DOWN A TREE UNLESS OUT OF COMPLETE NECESSITY. THE WAR IS ONLY BETWEEN ARMIES AND AFTER ONE SIDE HAD SURRENDERED THE WAR MUST STOP.

Now try to connect this to the Jihad being waged on today. Does it match any of these?? Jihad today is being fought ONLY FOR POLITICAL REASONS. They label their enemy as Anti-Muslims and declare Jihad inorder to call forth Muslims since Jihad is the central duty of every muslim. These animals are not muslims. They had defiled every aspect of Islam and any righteous, peaceful, and TRUE Muslim will tell you that these barbarians will rot in the depths of hell. On TV we only the see the crazy barbarians buthering little children, but the moderate muslim dont speak out due to Fear: If they are seen going against Jihad they will be labeled as enemies and become targets for the savages. These internal pressures restrict the silent voice of moderate muslims, who (believe this or not) outnumber the savages.

If these terrorists are fighting against oppression then they are following the Koran word to word. But by killing innocent civilians, raping children, and murdering the innocent then they are absolutely defiling the words of the koran and will rot in hell.

This one is for Mr. Spencer

You have shown many verses from the koran and shown that they command violence. But what you didnt show or you dont know is that the Koran was given to the prophet mohammad (pbuh) under various circumstances and inorder to understand them you have to understand the situation.

You love this verse dont you?

Sura 9:29

This verse takes us back to the era of the pagans. They had attacked the muslims 3 times and then they attacked. Before the battle this verse was given to the prophet mohammad (pbuh). You also love to point out "feel themselves subdued" this only means in this context that they give up their fight and realize that they have been defeated.

Ill throw you one better.

Book 47, verse four of the Koran, which says, "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight [or jihad], smite at their necks at length; when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them. "Thereafter is the time for either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens."

This one takes us back to another war. The muslims had a small army and they were figthing against a mighty army which was heavily equipped and armed. They wore breast plates and were seemingly invulerable. The muslim army hesitated and prayed to God. Then this verses was given. Their chests were covered but their necks were open and thats why it said smite their necks.

ALL others fall into these circumstances.

2) Dhimmitude

Another big one

Yes you are right that this is the title given to them under Islam law, BUT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG ABOUT HOW THEY ARE TREATED. They are NOT treated like 2nd class citizens and ALL OF THEIR RIGHTS MATCH THE MUSLIMS.

These are the only things which they cant do

1) Become political leaders
2) Join the army

THATS ALL!!!!!!

Another thing which you blow out of proportion is the Jiza. ALL of muslims have to pay zaqat, which is a major pillar in thei religion. Non muslims dont have to pay that. Instead they pay a Jiza which is much lower.

Now please dont tell me about what some empire did 300000 years ago. This is what the religion mandates.

Everything which I have told you is entirely true and represents true islam. Millions of muslims like me are proud of America, hate terrorism, respect all religions, and want peace. Please stop curing and insulting the prophet or islam. We are all civilized people on this site and refrain from insults. I haven't insulted anyone in comments and have not used profanity. I respect everyone on this site and believe in their 1st amendment rights. Terrorism must be stopped and the true muslims are behind you 100%.

Ps: im young so plz dont curse!!!!!!!

The video of Mr Bigley's murder should be made public and aired on every news channel under the title " Muslims murder another hostage" or something similar. The more people that see what these animals are doing the better - remember what happened when people started to find out about the Nazi death camps?

I know it will be upsetting for the Bigley family but people MUST know what is being done in the name of Islam.

Interestingly, it's not been uploaded to all the usual websites - does this mean that the US forces are getting so close that the shitbags can no longer upload to their websites in the usual manner? Just a thought?

cooperation.......

Nice post but the entire record of Muhammad is very poor when compared to Buddha and Jesus Christ. Your prophet is very violent and murderous when compared to other figures who have inspired religions.

And Jews are not commanded to emulate the violent actions of Moses' life.

A savage, despicable act. My heart goes out to Mr Bigley's family after such a long ordeal. His mother, particlarly.

I think Paul Bigley deserves more sympathy - if anyone close to me was held hostage by these savages I would say absolutely anything, dhimmi or not, to get them released. Of course it wasn't going to work - it only works with people who have a conscience.

Yes, Paul Bigley maybe a dhimmi leftie and his young Thai wife is almost certainly a mail order bride, but so what, what's really important here? Hatred and contempt should be reserved for the murderers not the victims or their families.

Im going to start with the big one. Mr. Spencer will has NEVER said this and Im 100% sure that you have never heard this so please read carefully
Jihad can only be declared under 3 circumstances

A) When there's a direct threat against a nation

Common sense: A nation must defend itself

But in practice most Jihads are offensive. You ain't defending your so called Ummah. You're expanding your so called Dar al Islam. Muhammedanism = irridentsism.

B) When Islam is being threatened

Utter nonsense. Muhammad engaged in blood drenched aggressive wars and quests for booty. Like a Mafia boss, Muhammad got a 20% cut of all booty, slaves and female sex slaves. Just look at all the Christian Arab nations vanquished within 200 years of Muhammad's birth.

CO-OPERATION
I personally do NOT Hate Muslims, many of whom are horribly and brutally oppressed by their religion and leaders. But I abhor this DEATH CULT called ISLAM and no santitizing or reform could make it palatable for myself or[many others]. The very character of Mohammed is anything but peaceful or moral : he appeals to all the basest instincts in men such as violent fighting and killing, torture,taking of hostages,raping of captured women,slavery,having sex with a 9yr old girl, stealing other people's property and land,
lying and deceit - in other words Mohammed turns
crime and exploitation into ISLAMIC VIRTUES BLESSED BY ALLAH!! There is the bizarre worship of a black rock and moongod which have been historically proved pre-Islam...Jews and other non-Believers are reviled and can be killed 'wherever ye shall find them' as 'the life of an Unbeliever has no sanctity.' Now, I'm not making this up, this is all in the Qur'an. Nor am I a Christian but I suggest you stick to being an
atheist or agnostic or go for some gentle religion
like Buddhism or Zoroastrian rather than continue
in the abomination called Islam.

Cooperation:

Do you really feel that a system in which some people can't hold political office is "fair"? How would you feel if the United States passed a law which said that everybody can run for office here except Muslims?

Think that's "fair"?

Do you think such a society would ever be fair to Muslims if they had no say in its running?

No!

Your racist dhimmi laws were NEVER fair. Our non-Muslim people suffered and died under them for centuries. They were racist and wrong. Deal with it, why don't you dude?

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I'm just sickened once again, tell me the story of how this is "peace" The world must wake up!

Cooperation,

I encourage you to overcome fear, and read the reasons of Ali Sina and other ex-Muslims:

"Why I Left Islam", by Ali Sina
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm

Cooperate with yourself!

Joel Català

Cooperation:

Beheadings, the enslavement of captives, torture and wars of agression to expand dar-al-Islam by force are expressely commanded by Islam. Read the ENTIRE Koran for yourself, or just look at the chapters and verses posted here by other posters. Or, if you like, go to MEMRI.org and see what Imans themselves have to say about Jihad. It is aggressive, world-wide war against ALL non-muslims, plain and simple.

And it is past time we non-muslims started fighting back on the level Muslims prefer. It is time to match terrorism by out-terrorizing the terrorists.

Cooperation:

Unfortunately, you are very ignorant of your own religion. Let's start with some basic assumptions. Muhammad was the perfect man, right? His example is to be imitated and is valid for all time and for all places, right?

Let us further assume that Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah is "a", if not "the", major source of information for Muslims about Muhammad's life.

Are you with me so far, Cooperation?

Then, if Muhammad was the perfect man, why is he revealed in the Sirat Rasul Allah to be a common thief, a war-monger, a womanizer, complicit in assassinations, executions and a lover of very young girls to boot. These are the actions of a "holy" and "perfect" man. This is the example that all people in all times and places should emulate?

If you have not read the Sirat Rasul Allah, then I suggest you start. Here is a link to a free copy:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/index.htm#sira

Sorry, Cooperation. It's interesting and heartening to know that an American Muslim is proud of America. However, you are in denial about the goals of Islam. They are immutable - Islam is to be triumphant over the earth, its resources and people. Those that resist will be treated as slaves or dhimmis.

One does not have to go back to islam's beginnings or even back into the middle part of the 20th century to see that this goal has changed. In today's world we see Muslim insurgents violently overtaking Christians, Buddhists, other Muslims, and all others that frankly don't want to live in a Muslim system. This is happening on every continent including North and South America. (Canadians are inhrerently afraid of Sha'ria as they have seen what eventually happens to non-Muslims when Sha'ria gains a foothold.)

The logic behind Jihad is that Jihad should be made against those that resist, those that thwart the aims of Islam. We don't want to live in a Muslim society under Muslim law which is hostile to non-Muslims. Thus, we are thwarting the goal of Islam to be triumphant over all, making ourselves, in the eyes of the jihadists ripe for jihad and takeover.

Hey dennis thanx for the complement. You present a hell of an argument. I'll give it my best!!

"But in practice most Jihads are offensive. You ain't defending your so called Ummah. You're expanding your so called Dar al Islam. Muhammedanism = irridentsism."

I really dont understand what your trying to say. You are right that most Jihads are offensive, but if you read what I said, most Jihads go against the principles of Islam. Jihad like I said must fall into those guidelines. Under PURE Islam the only offensive Jihad (if you look at what I said is) is when you are defending some other nation. Most Jihads are completely ignorant and go against Islam.

1) The Fatwa against Rusdie: Under Islam (im guessing you know what happens to Blasphemers) if someone does act or say something against Islam Scholars must refute him and prove he is wrong. Before anyone could say anything against him a bounty was placed on his head.

THIS IS NOT JIHAD

2) Osama's (may his name and memory be erased from history) fatwa against the US. On what basis? Absolute Hatred.

AGAIN THIS IS NOT JIHAD

3) The Muslim expansion and forced conversions

I think this is what you are talking about. Well let me start off by giving you the history of Islam in a few sentences. After Caliph Ali, Islamic law was abolished and a Monarchy was established. This is the Ummayaiad (i think i spelled it wrong) dynasty. They were only Muslim by name and YES they did force islam on non-muslims and ys they did expand the Dar-al islam. They were not following ISlam and did what ever it took to stay in power. This is the offensive Jihad you are talking about. ( iwish i could talk to you in person and give you a complete history, cuz my hands are getting tired from typing)

This is where those guys were wrong. Islam connot be forced on anyone. A person must willingly and whole heartedly agree to follow Islam. No one can be forced, Bribed, threatened etc.

Now for the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)

You see different people have different opinions about the life of the prophet mohammad (pbuh). You might be right, You might be wrong I cant say for sure. This is up to ones belief but I will tell you what I do know

You gave a comparison with him and other great men to have walked this Earth.

Buddha: All of his messages were followed due to by the Untouchables of Hinduism. He practically didnt face any opposition.

Jesus (pbuh): (I will not tell u the Muslim view point of him, rather the Chrsitian) He was killed and didnt even put up a fight or mutter a single word. His goal was to sacrifice himself.

NOW TIME FOR THE MOMENT OF TRUTH!!!!!

The Prophet Mohammad: If you look at his life when he started preaching he was met with fierce hostility. Unlike Jesus his goal was not to sacrifice himself rather it was to spread Islam (not by the sword) After opposition got severe he had to flee. When news about him reached all of Arabia they geared up and were ready to fight him. In order to defend ISLAM AND MUSLIMS he engaged in warfare. The booty i HIGHY doubt, because he lived a completely humble life. EVERYONE AGREES WITH THAT. So i doubt that he received any booty from war. Infact under Jihad the belongings of Non combatants cannot be touched only those who ARE KILLED ON THE BATTLEFIELD. So if he did then i guess it was to support his army.

The women

I really love talking about this because there is soo many lies flying around his marriages that it isnt funny

14 or how many?

You see each marriage had a purpose. His marriages are supposed to be the guidlines of marriage. A muslim man can marry up to 4 wives, any of which the prophet married.

Let me explain

He married a Jew: A muslim man can marry a Jew
He married a Christian: A muslim man can marry a christian
He married his step son's divorced wife: A muslim man can do that
(u c that another reason for his marriages was to break certain traditions. During that time u could not marry ur step son's divorced wife)
He married a widow: A muslim man can do that

So u c he did not marry for lust. if he did, then plz answer this question for me and i will convert from islam, y would he marry older women and start when he was like in his 50's????
Y not in his prime??

Aisha

Oh another one of the hot issues

She was 9 and he was like in his 50's

Pretty sick if u judge by todays standards rite? But thats the problem....u cant judge this marriage by todays world cuz it was in the 600's!!!!!!!!!

This marriage was arranged by her father Abu Bakr. U c that Islam needed a Female rep to convey its messages to women and the prophet was quite shy, so abu bakr nominated his own daughter and said that she is very bright and if u tutor her she will become great. In fact the 5 major texts of the Hadiths were written by her.

Also during this time

1) girls were buried alive
2) no education for them
3) they were kidnapped by local tribes and forced to becomes slaves

ITS HARD TO BELIEVE BASED ON TODAYS MUSLIM WORLD THAT ISLAM STOPPED ALL OF THIS

Under Islam again NO NON COMBAT CAN BE TOUCHED!!
The prophet mohammad did not due this or plunder cites. Again Im a proud American and i will fight to the death for ur freedom of speech, this isnt true. How could he go against his own words in the Koran?? Wont the followers notcie that??
All of that female sex slaves garbage was done later on by the Muslim empire by the time they were barely muslim.

This is all i can say about this topic. Thanx again for bringing up such a good discussion point.

In conclusion each person is entitled to his or her opinions.

Some believe that the prophet was a murderer, rapist, killer, etc

Some believe he was perfect

We cannot let this interfere with general peace and understanding. The past is the past. We must work togther for the future.

I feel sickened to the stomach by these animals actions!
To put Ken Bigley and his family through that nightmare for 3 weeks is just inhumane.

I wish there was going to be public protests in the UK, I would definitely be there!

I'm fed up of hearing people blame Tony Blair & George Bush for the terrorists actions. It's ludicrous! The only people responsible are the terrorist networks. Not our goverments!

Where can I find the full statement from the video that was released, I dont' want to watch it I just want a transcript of the statements made before Mr. Bigley was beheaded.

Moose

The logic behind Jihad is that Jihad should be made against those that resist, those that thwart the aims of Islam. We don't want to live in a Muslim society under Muslim law which is hostile to non-Muslims. Thus, we are thwarting the goal of Islam to be triumphant over all, making ourselves, in the eyes of the jihadists ripe for jihad and takeover---epg

You are absolutely right and I support the war of terror with all of my heart and I hope these monsters are defeated. But again you miss my main point that this not not the mandated Jihad by the koran.

cooperation,

Go preach it to your brethren.

I don't say this to discount what you have said, deny you your opinion, or deny you the right to say what you've said.

I do say this to encourage you to work within Islam to start a reformation towards a peaceful Islam, which is what Mr. Spencer has been advocating all along.

I suggest you start in Saudi Arabia, specifically to the Wahabi sect of Islam. If you can get success in their mosques, maybe you will have an effect on the radical Islamic Jihadists the rest of the world are so concerned about.

In the end, THEY are the ones who need to hear this message.

Cooperation~ It may not be the Jihad mandated by the Koran, but if OBL and crew get their way, it will be the one that rules the future. In any case, you are the First (beyond Naseem, who really does try) to present a detailed argument.

I'm sorry to have to depress you, Morgane, but Zoroastrianism has had its violent episodes as well, particularly under the direction of the High Priest Karter, who was responsible for the suppression of other local religions, and ultimately the death of Mani, the founder of Manicheism.

The same can be said of pretty much any major religion: particularly ones which have become state religions.

That's not to say that Zoroastrianism didn't have a strong pluralist ethic, which was particularly evident during the reign of Darius I (check the Bible on that).

I don't subscribe to Robert Spencer's grand thesis on Islam. I do, however, agree that a particularly insidious manifestation of that religion has been spread, not only in Asia and the Arab world, but also in other parts of the Ummah, largely as a result of two factors. The first is the co-option of Islam within Saudi Arabia: a political compromise which has given Salafists a key say in the religious character not only of the Saudi kingdom, but also throughout many world mosques whose appointments and theology has been dictated by Saudi salafists. The second, in Pakistan, is the direct result of General Zia's similar compromise with the extreme elements of islam in that country.

It is certainly true to say that a Caliphate would entail the deprivation of non-Muslims of certain key political rights. It is also true to say that the treatment of non believers in medieval islam compares with the treatment of non believers in medieval christianity: under some regimes, non believers were protected and prospered, and under others they did not.

That is not to say that a country which observed Islam, even as a state religion, but which maintained the crucial separation between mosque and state, would inevitably deprive its citizens of those rights. I know many muslims who would expressly reject a political model which aimed to do that.

Religious texts tend to be open textured. Most religious people of all faiths tend to ignore or reinterpret the bits which are inconvenient, or which are impractical, or which in some other way clash with other deeply held values. Islam really is no different. The only important difference is that a violent and aggressive theology has been fostered and promoted by certain states.

It is that manifestation of Islam which parted Ken Bigley from his body. As the NRA are fond of saying: guns don't kill: people do. Likewise, it is not Islam which kills. Rather, it is the theology of salafists and terrorists in practice which has resulted in the death of that particular innocent.

Re: cooperation

Is Karl back with a new name or has Karl lite weighed in?

Yes "cooperation", that's why jihadwatch is here. Mr.Spencer and others like him ARE working for the future. They're working to give us a future free from islamic ignorance, free from jihad violence and free from a deathcult that wants to kill you if you dare leave it. A future world without islam would be a world where women would be equal to men, free to wear what they want, talk to who they want and love who they want. Without islam muslims would turn away from hate and violence. Without islam we wouldn't have young men sawing the heads off infidels in the name of their god. I don't know whether "cooperation" is just the latest in a long line of muslim posters to this site who always come in with peace and understanding but end up raving about islam ruling the Earth. If so his name brings to mind the old muslim agenda - "cooperate or die". For those of you new to this site just take a look around the world today - at muslims killing buddhists in Thailand, muslims killing christians in Nigeria and the Sudan, at muslims killing Russian children in Beslan, at muslims killing israeli tourists in Egypt, at muslims killing catholics in the Philipines, at muslims killing Christians in Pakistan, at muslims killing Hindus in Kashmir, at muslims planning to kill "infidels" in the Netherlands, in Paris, in London, in New York. islam is sick and diseased, it's like a disgusting tumour that is starting to turn our planet blood red. The time has come for a mercy killing. islam must go. Muslims can help or they can sink further back into depravity and violence - it's their choice but the 5 BILLION of us who don't follow the deathcult are running out of patience. We're not in the MIDDLE AGES anymore - this is the 21st CENTURY, islam has to go into the dustbin of history.....

LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM !!!

cooperation
Here is a few things our Holy book says about love.

(1 John 4:8 MKJV) The one who does not love has not known God. For God is love
(1 John 4:19 MKJV) We love God because He first loved us.
(1 John 4:20 MKJV) If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar. For if he does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

Maybe you could be kind enough to show us some comparable Things your Holy book the Qur'an says about love??

Salaam Alaykum

Cooperation,

May I ask you if you remember how old you were when you first held a gun in your hand?

May I also ask you if you've read the Qur'an, or do you follow what has been told to you by an older generation of Muslims?

Lastly, If you've read the Qur'an for yourself, do you honestly believe that Islam is a religion in any sense of the term? let alone a religion that practices peace, tolerance, and co-existence?

I await.

Re: cooperation and dst

Remember, taqiyya is always in effect.

I never believe anything that comes from islam, its apologists nor its defenders.

Wow!!! I guess now the gloves come off eh??

Well let me start of by telling you guys about byself. I am an American Born and raised. Im 16. Im not some Yahooo that just logged on to your site and start preaching my religious agenda and trying to convert u. I first saw Mr. Spencer on CSPAN promoting his book "Behing the Veil". I became very interested in his teachings and wanted to debate with him. Then I found this site and thought it was excellent, but then i started reading the comments. I was really horrifed at some people saying disgusting things about Islam and all Muslims. Today I decided to defend my religion. Not by guns, not by rape and torture, not by claming that all relgions are false and Islam is the only one....submit or die, but instead through my knowledge of Islam. Let me start with DCWatson. You seem educated.I have read the koran in 4 different languages and want to embark on a life promoting peace and ending this terrorism and the belief that all non muslims are infidels and nonhuman and deserve death.

This site is sort of like whats going on with Islam. The majority want peace and understanding but a few Apes want destruction and death. As far as your question goes.... after reading the koran adn the bible, there isnt a doubt in my mind that These religions can coexist peacefully.

re: son of Albion

I preach nothing but respect and honesty, but note this that u will not intimidate me. Yeah what u said was tru but did ur genius mind comprehend wat i had written before??

Well answer this Einstein

1) In spain Muslims were killed during the reconquesta (sp)
2) In India Muslims were killed in the thousands
3) In Bosnia women and children were raped

These were innocent people and were not a part of any war. U cant just take out acts of violence and display that as religion. U udnerstand me?? U seem like an educated and sesible person but ur logic rivals that of a child. And claiming that im just here trying to spread islam then u r a bigger fool than ur comment makes u seem as.

re:Bar

Do not speak ill of those whom others invoke instead of God,that they might not speak ill of God out of spite or ignorance:for, We have made their own activities appear alluring to each communityIn time, to their Sustainer they must return; and then He will make them understand the truth of all that they were doing.
(Livestock 06: 108)

If anyone slays a single soul--unless it be in punishment for murder or for spreading corruption on earth--it shall be as though he had slain all humankind;whereas, if anyone saves a life,it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all humanity.

(The Repast 05: 32)

O Children of Adam! Beautify yourselves for every act of worship,and eat and drink, but do not waste:truly, He does not love the wasteful!
(Women 04: 58)

These are all the ones i can find

I have to respond to like 40 people!!

I know it sounds harsh but he knew the risks invold when he to work in iraq, only his greed for the vast amounts of money that the workers can earn, and the soilders know excatly that they are trained to go to war and pertentially die for us, they know this when they join up to any of the armys of this crazy world that we live in.

Posted by: jb at October 8, 2004 01:14 PM

WHAT KIND OF A MONSTER ARE YOU THEY CUT THE MANS HEAD OFF WITH HIS HANDS TIED BEHIND HIS BACK!!!

tHE MAN WENT TO HELP THE iRAQI PEOPLE HAVE CLEAN DRINKING WATER AND THE MONSTERS OF THE ROCK GOD CUT HIS HEAD OFF!!

YOU SOUND AS SICK AS THEY ARE IT IS OKAY BECAUSE HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THEIR?

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT THESE MONSTER WANT YOU DEAD TOO!! WHERE EVER YOU ARE THEY WANT YOU BOWING WITH YOUR BUT IN THE AIR TO A ROCK GOD?

AND AS FOR LITTLE CO AND DON'T TALK BAD ABOUT HIS ROCKgod!!

I don't have to say shait he says it all and you are a lier!!!

INTOLERANCE:

Qur’an 9:71 “O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

YEA WHAT WERE YOU SAYING??

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

YEA TIE AN OLD MANS HANDS AND 3 HOLD HIM DOWN AND CUT OFF HIS HEAD

Qur’an 4:168 “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

I AM AMERICAN REJECT this crap and WILL FIGHT AGAINST YOU!!

Qur’an 4:114 “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”

I GOT YOUR FE-N FIRE RUN UBL NO SEE SINCE TORA BORA!!

Ishaq:344 “We smote them and they scattered. The impious met death. They became fuel for Hell. All who aren’t Muslims must go there. It will consume them while the Stoker [Allah] increases the heat. They had called Allah’s Apostle a liar. They claimed, ‘You are nothing but a sorcerer.’ So Allah destroyed them.”

YEA WHO IS RUNNING NOW THE TALIBANMAN FLIP THE BIRD TO THE TALIBANMAN!!

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

THE IRAQI PEOPLE WANT THEIR FREEDOM!!

Qur’an 33:64 “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers [whom he defines as Christians in the 5th surah] and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ‘Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!’ ‘Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!’”

HOW MANY TERRORIST DEAD YES KILLED AND WHERE OR WHERE IS YOUR YELLOW MAN ubl??

Qur’an 5:10 “Those who reject, disbelieve and deny Our signs, proofs and verses will be companions of Hell-Fire.”

ONCE AGAIN HOW MANY TERRORIST DEAD??

Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”

WHO MADE THE BOMB WAS IT A MUSSI NO IT WAS A BUNCH OF JEWS TO KILL JEW KILLERS!! AND BOY DOES IT MAKE FIRE!!

Bukhari:V1B11N617 “I would order someone to collect firewood and another to lead prayer. Then I would burn the houses of men who did not present themselves at the compulsory prayer and prostration.”

SO YOU THINK YOU WILL BURN DOWN MY HOUSE WELL I GOT NEWS FOR YOU WE WILL BURN DOWN YOURS!!

Bukhari:V1B11N626 “The Prophet said, ‘No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr. If they knew the reward they would come to (the mosque) even if they had to crawl. Certainly I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.’”

NOW WHAT WERE YOU SAYING ABOUT BEING NICE?

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”

SO WHY AGAIN ARE YOU A MUSSI??NO BALLS??

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

NOT TO WORRY ABOUT THAT ONE??

DECEPTION:

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”

SO THIS SAYS NO CONTRACT IS WORTHY CAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO LIE ANYWAY!!

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

OKAY TO TELL A LIE??NOT GOING TO KILL HIM BECAUSE HE IS REALLY IRISH WHAT MONSTERS

Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

LIE LIE KING OF JORDAN LOOKED GEN.TOMMY FRANKS IN THE EYE TOLD YES I KNOW SADDAM HAS LOST OF WMD'S CAUSE DID HE WANT HIS LAND??

Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”

HERE IS THE KICKER WAR IS FUN

Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”

TORTURE:

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

CUT OFF BODY PARTS?

Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”

LETS JUST LET YOUR BOOK DO THE TALKING??

Bukhari:V4B54N487 “The Prophet said, ‘The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.’ So someone said, ‘Allah’s Apostle, wouldn’t this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture the unbelievers?’”

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “Ali burnt some [former Muslims alive] and this news reached Ibn Abbas, who said, ‘Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, “Don’t punish with Allah’s Punishment.” No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, “If a Muslim discards his Islamic religion, kill him.”’”

Qur’an 48:27 “If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture.”

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
Qur’an 5:37 “The [Christian] disbelievers will long to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out there from; and theirs will be an enduring torture.”

Tabari IX:6 “The chief sheep tender sent out spies to obtain intelligence. But they came back with their joints dislocated. When he asked what had happened, they said, ‘We saw white men on black horses. Before we could resist, we were struck as you see us now.”

Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.””
Ishaq:312 “Umar said to the Apostle, ‘Let me pull out Suhayl’s two front teeth. That way his tongue will stick out and he will never be able to speak against you again.’”

Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Tabari VII:133/Ishaq:387 “When Muhammad saw Hamzah he said, ‘If Allah gives me victory over the Quraysh at any time, I shall mutilate thirty of their men!’ When the Muslims saw the rage of the Prophet they said, ‘By Allah, if we are victorious over them, we shall mutilate them in a way which no Arab has ever mutilated anybody.”

Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.” [

WELL I AINT PAYING NO TAX SO THIS MEANS WAR BY YOUR BOOK!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to stay the course to Victory to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
I have yet to have a mussi come back and explain this?

Cause you see they can't like he said yea if another mulsum country is in a fight but what about when they fight each other? which is all the time they just like to fight they learn of the blood letting and knock their heads with swards they are crazy and must be put down like a mad dog!!

re:Bar

Do not speak ill of those whom others invoke instead of God,that they might not speak ill of God out of spite or ignorance:for, We have made their own activities appear alluring to each communityIn time, to their Sustainer they must return; and then He will make them understand the truth of all that they were doing.
(Livestock 06: 108)

If anyone slays a single soul--unless it be in punishment for murder or for spreading corruption on earth--it shall be as though he had slain all humankind;whereas, if anyone saves a life,it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all humanity.

(The Repast 05: 32)

O Children of Adam! Beautify yourselves for every act of worship,and eat and drink, but do not waste:truly, He does not love the wasteful!
(Women 04: 58)

These are all the ones i can find

I meabt right now. I say this cuz i know someone will turn this one around too

Cooperation:
I didn't see where you discussed Jihad in light of Sura 9:5 - what have you to say regarding the Verse of the Sword?
Secondly, you shouldn't make light of the political and military disenfranchisement of dhimmis - forbidding anyone from participating in the political process or defending their homes is no small matter.
Third, the jizya and zaqat are not equivalent. The jizya is an involuntary tribute, whereas the zaqat is voluntary altruism. Furthermore, I have seen statistics that do not back your claim that the zaqat exceeds the jizya.
Fourth, please explain to us why the Islamic Declaration of Human Rights and the Arab Charter on Human Rights fail to prohibit the following:
-genocide
-slavery
-equality before the law, regardless of race, religion or sex
-restrictions against freedom of thought, conscience and speech
-restrictions against freedom of religion
-the incitement of discrimination, hostility and violence against persons and groups based on their race, religion and nationality.

I'm not sure that there is much point debating Islam on this website. There is a muddy border between criticism of the ideology of a particular manifestation of a religion and the actions of its adherents on the one hand, and a religious phobia on the other. Many of the contributors on this site routinely cross that border. A particularly stark manifestation of that phobia is that whenever an atrocity is committed in the name of Islam, posters call on muslim thinkers to condemn that atrocity. When they do, they are accused of "taqiyya": religious deception.

One of the major criticisms of islam is that, unlike Christianity which underwent a multifaceted reformation which effectively privatised the faith, and Judaism which existed for most of its history in a form which was incapable of exerting secular power, there has not been a successful islamic reformation.

This is not to say that there haven't been forms of islam which have attempted such a reformation. Ahmadi Islam, which emerged in the late 19th century, is a good example of such a possibility. More widespread, however, are muslims like you who do very well in all countries throughout the world, by making their own pacific islam and living according to its non-violent precents.

However, in building such a vision of your religion, you probably won't find a significant body of respected islamic jurisprudence which will support your views. You'll have to rely on other people - people who you know and whose intellect you trust - to decide what your personal religion ought to contain.

Its difficult to reject established religious authority, particularly if your religious tradition teaches respect for the authority of those figures. Guess why it does that. But most of us have sat in our churches, synagogues, and mosques, and read the holy books and listened to the sermons and thought: this is just wrong.

Religious leaders like to tell you that those moments of truth are satanic in origin, or the result of youth, inexperience, or foolishness. But then, as Mandy Rice Davis once said, they would say that, wouldn't they?

On TV we only the see the crazy barbarians buthering little children, but the moderate muslim dont speak out due to Fear: If they are seen going against Jihad they will be labeled as enemies and become targets for the savages. These internal pressures restrict the silent voice of moderate muslims, who (believe this or not) outnumber the savages.

Posted by: cooperation at October 8, 2004 03:03 PM

so you admit YOU ARE A YELLOW COWARD!!

COWARDS NEVER WIN!!

MURDER:

Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”

Ishaq:434 “Amr and an Ansari waited until they were asleep. Then Amr killed them, thinking that he had taken vengeance for the Muslims who had been slain. When he came to the Messenger, he told him what had happened. The Prophet said, ‘You have killed men for whom I shall have to pay blood-money.’”

Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”
Mahammad forced himself on her. This is how it happened:

Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”

Muhammad raped a baby. I guess you are so proud of worshiping a pig like that, huh ? lets not forgt, muhammad used the moon to measure seasons, so she was not nine yet, only 8 years old.

Tabari VIII:100 “Abu Sufyan said, ‘We were merchants but the fighting between us and Muhammad has prevented us from journeying, so our wealth is depleted. [This is the purpose of terrorism.] Even after the truce with the Muslims, we fear that we still are not safe. [Muslims, continuing to plunder Meccan caravans, violated the treaty twenty times.]’”

Ishaq:316 “In peace you are wild asses—rough and coarse. And in war you are like women wearing corsets. But I care not so long as my hand can grasp my trusty blade.”

Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty

Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Tabari VII:148 “Amr said, ‘Let’s wait here until the cry has died down. They are sure to hunt for us tonight and tomorrow. I was still in the cave when Uthman bin Malik came riding proudly on his horse. He reached the entrance to our cave and I said to my Ansar companion, ‘If he sees us, he will tell everyone in Mecca.’ So I went out and stabbed him with my dagger. He gave a shout and the Meccans came to him while I went back to my hiding place. Finding him at the point of death, they said, ‘By Allah we knew that Amr came for no good purpose.’ The death of their companion impeded their search for us, for they carried him away.”
Tabari VII:149 “I went into a cave with my bow and arrows. While I was in it, a one-eyed man from the Banu Bakr came in driving some sheep. He said, ‘Who’s there?’ I said [lied], ‘I’m a Banu Bakr.’ ‘So am I.’ Then he laid down next to me, and raised his voice in song: ‘I will not believe in the faith of the Muslims.’ I said, ‘You will soon see!’ Before long the Bedouin went to sleep and started snoring. So I killed him in the most dreadful way that anybody has ever killed. I leant over him, struck the end of my bow into his good eye, and thrust it down until it came out the back of his neck. After that I rushed out like a wild beast and took flight. I came to the village of Naqi and recognized two Meccan spies. I called for them to surrender. They said no so I shot and arrow and killed one, and then I tied the other up and took him to Muhammad.”

THE LIGHT HAS SHOWN AND THE LIES NO LONGER WORK??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courahe to stay the course to Victory to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Eyes of the World to their Threat Amen

When I heard the story about DVD's with several beheadings on them,that's when I knew Bigley was as good as dead,the beheadings were for the benefit of Muslims as a recruit tool for young Muhammed Jihadists.
I predicted this whole display of hostages being released if foreign troops exit Iraq was
just a charade as part of their DVD production.
It is far easier to prompt Muslims to kidnap and behead infidels if the video's portray Islam being under attack and the Quran ordering them to use Jihad to win the crusade against the Jewish and Christian Pigs.

Rikki:

I saw your comments that you posted earlier, specifically:

"Personally I'm glad they've killed him, I'm sick of seeing his emotionless family on TV, and in the papers."

I've never derived pleasure from seeing the demise of anyone in a combat situation -- let alone a hapless prisoner such as Bigley. However, I think I understand your meaning in the sense that the ordeal is "over;" in which case I most certainly agree with you.

"I'm sick of hearing Paul Bigley and his gutless brothers creeping up to the kidnappers and offering heart, anus , bed and breakfast to them, while critisizing Blair/Bush and blaming the whole shebang on Israel."

If it were my brother, I suppose I would also be willing to do "anything" including offering myself as an exchange. Blaming you personally or Israel would be accounted a small matter in such desparation, as it was I suppose for the Bigley's.

In this case however, I could see that the terrorists were simplying toying with the Bigley family. Building up expectations for release; crushing them with a grotesque murder in the form of sawing off the head of the vitim with a crude knife.

Unfortunately, the Bigley's were played like a tune by the murders and unwittingly served their purposes admirably. It is a lesson that should be quickly learned by the rest of us. It may be us or our families next.

"I'm sick of seeing the old man sniffling and pleading for Tony Blair to release the women prisoners (yeah, like you're so worth the release of 2 bio-weapon experts), while being fed a islamo-fascist script to try and sway gullible viewers."

The sniffling gentleman must have been witness to the horrorable spectacal of two others before him having their heads sawed off; screaming; pleading; dying in agony over a horrible ten minutes from hell; and knowing the prospects for his own end were no better.

I suppose that the stench of death in Bigley's nostrals (i.e body fluids etc. from a severed head or a body for example, have a rather pungent and unmistakeable oder -- walk into any butcher shop anywhere and sniff the air to get a sense of what I mean -- a battlefield "the morning after" is far worse!) were probably interlaced with tenuous promises of hope for conditional release; it is a set of circumstances that would make any "normal human being" vomit if only shown the video -- let alone experince the event itself.

In that regard, I imagine that Bigley can be forgiven to some degree for his unmanly performance in facing his own demise. There are never any real heros on a battlefield -- merely those lucky enough to make through the night. Bigley's luck it seems, ran out.

And why the two bio-weapons expert are still alive in the first place I do not comprehend; but I suppose given Bigley's circumstances, they were straws to which he hoped to grasp.

I hardly fault Bigley for grasping for some semblence of "hope."

"I'm sick of seeing his young thai wife (who he probably bought while on holiday the orient for a couple of indian rupees and a can of sardines)begging,and offering- and I quote - to become a buddhist nun to secure his release (quite what that would've acheived is beyond even the most LSD-minded individual)."

Well, I am ignorant of many things -- and Bigley's Thai wife is but one example; if you could elucidate on this point -- it would prove insightful and instructive too.

Give to me the coordinates of the kidnappers who did this deed and I shall take the fuckers out with alacrity and ferver in a single shot squarely placed between their eyes a distance from afar.

But I may now be judged a hypocrite as my Christian love has wained, and my blood runs cold against those who do such morbid things as has befallen Bigley. Such are my shortcomings and hence, my constant need for salvation.

But know this - the bastards will rot in hell at their appointed time! I pray God, that time is short!

When a political ideology, especially a totalitarian and fascist one such as islam, is so fundamentally, foundationally flawed, it cannot be "reformed". Changes would have to be so drastic as to render the new "islamic" ideology unrecognizable and completely incompatible with the old. Could there be a "reformed" Nazism that we could find acceptable?

Could a reformed Nazism work? Nope, but there are plenty of relatively innocuous nationalist movements, some of which are also corporatist. They typically do not deprive any section of the population of their civil rights.

The writing patterns of the above poster are those of "Linda" Don't be drawn into this again.

I like to think of myself as being a reasonably tolerant and enlightened person. I try to think before I act.

As `cooperation' pointed out, terrorists are doing a very good job of making Islam look like a religion for psychopaths. On the one hand, I see people like `cooperation' making the effort to distance the religion from the acts of a few wackos. But pages and pages of logical arguments tend to pale when contrasted against a video of some barbarians butchering another human being.

I'd *like* to think there was a reasonable, rational solution here, but I'm beginning to wonder. I wonder if maybe the more radical approaches that some advocate (`nuke iran', etc.) might not be a solution. I would have been horrified to consider this earlier, but having seen one of those videos (I won't watch another), the action of last resort is now thinkable.

I don't think I'm the only one that's starting to get a little fed up with this. When reason fails, there is always force, and if that's what is needed, so be it.

Is this what the terrorists want? A fight - no rules - last one standing? Ok. I have no problem with that. Let's go.

I suggest that moderate and mainstream Muslims might want to consider exactly how close to the limit westerners have been pushed, and the consequences of exceeding that limit. I think it might be more fruitful for the moderates Muslims to educate the radical ones rather than try to educate the westerners. I'm rapidly losing interest in rational discourse when I see what's going on in the Middle East.

(I wish you luck, `cooperation', but I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.)

My dear "cooperation":

You say: "Im going to start with the big one. Mr. Spencer will has NEVER said this" and go on to say that "Jihad can only be declared under 3 circumstances: A) When there's a direct threat against a nation...B) When Islam is being threatened...C)(read this one very closely) WHEN THERE ARE INJUSTICES BEING DONE TO ANOTHER NATION, MUSLIM OR NON-MUSLIM."

It is clear from your prefatory statement that you haven't actually read my books, but aside from that, your second point is very broad, and it allows for offensive attacks against those perceived as threatening Islam. Cf. a fatwa from Mufti Ebrahim Desai, who says: "if a country doesn't allow the propagation of Islam to its inhabitants in a suitable manner or creates hindrances to this, then the Muslim ruler would be justifying in waging Jihad against this country...If the Kuffaar allow us to spread Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them." This is a mandate for war against anyone at anytime.

You say: "WHEN A NATION IS IN JIHAD IT CANNOT TARGET WOMEN,CHILDREN, THE ELDERLY, THE HANDICAPPED, AND CONNOT EVEN BUT DOWN A TREE UNLESS OUT OF COMPLETE NECESSITY."

Once again, your "unless out of complete necessity" is a loophole wide enough to fit in the downfall of the Twin Towers.

You say: "...but the moderate muslim dont speak out due to Fear: If they are seen going against Jihad they will be labeled as enemies and become targets for the savages."

Yes, and why? Because the "savages" have the literal words of the Qur'an and Hadith on their side, as you yourself acknowledge: "If these terrorists are fighting against oppression then they are following the Koran word to word." Because they think that they are fighting against oppression when they target innocent civilians, rape children, etc.

You say: "You have shown many verses from the koran and shown that they command violence. But what you didnt show or you dont know is that the Koran was given to the prophet mohammad (pbuh) under various circumstances and inorder to understand them you have to understand the situation."

I am aware of that, thanks. I invite you to read my books.

You say: "You love this verse dont you? Sura 9:29"

No, actually I hate it.

You say: "This verse takes us back to the era of the pagans. They had attacked the muslims 3 times and then they attacked. Before the battle this verse was given to the prophet mohammad (pbuh). You also love to point out 'feel themselves subdued' this only means in this context that they give up their fight and realize that they have been defeated."

This is your opinion, but are you aware that Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Tafsir Al-Jalalayn, and many others all say that sura 9 abrogates all peace treaties in the Qur'an and stands for all time? Are you aware of the many Islamic teachers who want to restore the dhimma? I quote them in my book "Onward Muslim Soldiers." It's all very well to tell me your opinion of this verse; I'd like to see you convince radical Muslims that THEY are misusing it.

You say that 47:4 refers to a time when the enemies of the Muslims "chests were covered but their necks were open and thats why it said smite their necks."

That's irrelevant. The problem is that the verse is used today by radical Muslims to justify beheadings. What do you say to them?

You say about dhimmitude: "Yes you are right that this is the title given to them under Islam law, BUT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG ABOUT HOW THEY ARE TREATED. They are NOT treated like 2nd class citizens and ALL OF THEIR RIGHTS MATCH THE MUSLIMS. These are the only things which they cant do 1) Become political leaders 2) Join the army THATS ALL!!!!!!"

This is completely false. A manual of Islamic law endorsed by Al-Azhar in 1991 says that the dhimmis must "pay the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya)" and "are distinguished from Muslims in dress, wearing a wide cloth belt (zunnar); are not greeted with ‘as-Salamu ‘alaykum’ [the traditional Muslim greeting, “Peace be with you”]; must keep to the side of the street; may not build higher than or as high as the Muslims’ buildings, though if they acquire a tall house, it is not razed; are forbidden to openly display wine or pork . . . recite the Torah or Evangel aloud, or make public display of their funerals or feastdays; and are forbidden to build new churches." They are also forbidden to hold authority over Muslims and are restricted in other ways. This is hardly holding the "same rights as Muslims."

You say: "Another thing which you blow out of proportion is the Jiza. ALL of muslims have to pay zaqat, which is a major pillar in thei religion. Non muslims dont have to pay that. Instead they pay a Jiza which is much lower."

This is false too. It was money from the dhimmis, not from Muslims, that financed the early Islamic empires; indeed, Muslims paid nothing at all into the state treasury in the days when there were large populations (i.e., in Egypt and Syria) of conquered dhimmi Christians. At certain times conversions to Islam were forbidden, as they were destroying the tax base! If the jizya had really been less than zakat, human nature being what it is, we would have seen large-scale conversions of Muslims to Christianity in the great Islamic empires -- but of course we don't, because who would want to exchange the position of the dominator for that of the dominated?

For non-Muslims in Muslim societies, there was not just jizya, but kharaj, the land tax. While the jizya was generally set at a fixed amount by the jurists (although this was highly adjustable), the kharaj was another matter. In the Hedaya, an Islamic legal manual, in a discussion about the purchase of land by a dhimmi, it declares: "it is lawful to require twice as much of a Zimmee [dhimmi] as of a Mussulman [Muslim], whence it is that, if such an one were to come before the collector with merchandise, twice as much would be exacted of him as of a Mussulman" (Hedaya I.vi).

Also, not only was jizya double the rate of zakat, but it was often collected in a ceremony that ensured the humiliation of the dhimmis.

You say: "Now please dont tell me about what some empire did 300000 years ago. This is what the religion mandates."

OK. The bottom line is that radical Muslims who are working to impose Sharia on Muslim and non-Muslim states, will endeavor also to reimpose the jizya. In the name of the equality of rights of all people, this must be resisted.

You say: "Everything which I have told you is entirely true and represents true islam. Millions of muslims like me are proud of America, hate terrorism, respect all religions, and want peace."

Great. Then renounce violent jihad, dhimmitude, and the will to impose Sharia on the rest of us, and we'll have something to work with.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer

This forum and its sister, Dhimmi Watch, is attracting a lot of attention lately.

1. abushaukat33 - an honest muslim who said what he believed in. One knew where one stood with him.

2. SteveUK- purporting to be white and not muslim. Said so without being asked; always a dead giveaway.

3. KARL - another who immediately claimed in his very first post, that he was not a muslim.

And now- For months afterwards I considered myself an Atheist and hated all religions

Such statements always lead to - how quite independently and without any pressure, the writer discovered the beauty in the koran.

The koran is one of the vilest books that I have read. As a religious text, it falls far short of any other religious text. As a manual for plunder, rape and murder, it has no equal. Then of course we have the proof in the pudding. Islam is what muslims do. As for loyalty to the state that muslims are living in. Well we have plenty of incidents where muslims in the US armed forces have betrayed the trust of their fellow soldiers. Here in the UK, a muslim in the RAF went AWOL, as he did not wish to take part in a war against fellow muslims in Iraq.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=NR10UMCUEBW2TQFIQMFSM5WAVCBQ0JVC?xml=/news/2004/10/08/nair08.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/08/ixportal.html

As for these posters, in a way they are a compliment to the effectiveness of this forum. One could also be forgiven in thinking that there was some kind of a concerted and coordinated attack on Jihad Watch.

Notice it's two at a time, like I said earlier I think the trolls are recruited to disrupt. Yhey start out almost apologetically then progress to arguments then insults.

Cooperation,

Do yourself a favor, reject and leave Islam. You'll be much better off and a happier person if you do.

I'm not sure if I'm being accused of being a troll or not. If I am, I do think that its evidence of a particularly paranoid outlook that you might think that I'm somehow in a conspiracy with a sixteen year old muslim with whom I'm significantly disagreeing, albeit in a gentle way. If I'm not, ignore this post.

I'm a blogger who writes supportively of the war on terror. I should also add that I'm occasionally, and mistakenly, accused of islamophobia.

Robert:

The problem is that the verse is used today by radical Muslims to justify beheadings. What do you say to them?

This is unfair. You know perfectly well what cooperation will say because his or her post constitutes a repudiation of that position. Cut the sixteen year old kid some slack!

I'm guessing that the next posts will posit that the sixteen year old is actually Saddam Hussein and I am Osama.

"NBC on its Web site cited Pentagon sources as saying Bigley was apparently killed during an escape attempt and that others who were trying to help him might also have been killed."

From here:

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=599652§ion=news

So is there really proof that Bigley was beheaded? If so, where is the video? Where is the body? So far, only one unidentified Baghdad Reuter's reporter has claimed to have seen it.

Call me cynical, but where is the proof??

The barbarians have finally beheaded Kenneth Bigley. When is the civilized world going to rise up in righteous indignation and strike down these savage Islamic jihadists? Until we throw off the oppressive orthodoxy of political correctness, the free world is in danger of destruction by savages who want to take us back 14 centuries into a dark age of unparalled oppression, degradation and slavery.

Mr Spencer

I think that you have presented a great argument and I will definitely do further research on the matter at hand. In regards to what you wrote I am a Muslims, I denounce terrorism, dhimmitude, and the imposing of Sharia on on non-muslims. I've been trying to display this in all of my posts.

But I have 1 quesition for you. This question had been swirling in my head since the 1st time I saw you speak avout your book.

You have said countless times that in order to prove rape there must be 4 male witnesses. That is entirely not true. You see that the testimony of one male is equal to that of 2 females. Many scholars have presented various different arguments. Some say that women can get frightened easily and some have other thoughts.
anyways..... The law says 4 witnesses regardless of race.

The Mathematcial distribution can be

4 males
8 Females
1 Male 6 females
2 Males 4 females
3 males 2 females

This is one aspect, such as many others that need reform, but u cannot just say that it requires only 4 males witnesses. That is wrong.

NAKED FACE OF RELIGION }:O

cooperation and others:

There's no use in discussing which religious verses are valid and which are not valid within a given religious text. Just compare the whole texts in their entirety and see what the "theme" or "spirit" of the particular holy book is. The theme of the Bible seems to be: faith and love and the theme of the Koran seems to be: faith and submission.

The Bible was written by writers from a more advanced and civilized culture. Rome was a civilization and that was where the main events of the New Testament take place. Arabia during the time of Mohamed was a savage place with warring, rootless gangs. The Koran reflects this culture.

My point is not to support one religious dogma over another, since it is all just made up from whole cloth, anyway. There is no God, there is no Allah and there is no Yahewah or little green men, mermaids, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the square root of (-1). These are all entities of the same class: non-entities or imaginary.

Religion exists to serve two masters:
1: Ordinary people who fear their own mortality and need some moral framework for their lives beyond just following to their primordial whims; and
2: The people in power or the clergy, king.

Remember that ideas are not spread because they are true, but because they are politically useful. And politically useful to whom?

Religion is very useful for those people who:
a) want power; b) want to maintain their power; or c) want to convince themselves that there is life beyond the grave for themselves and their loved ones.

Religions, gods and particular verses of given holy books are all irrelevant. It's all in people's imagination, except for the historical part of the real lives of the real people, not their particular hallucinations or dreams.

You can't talk about morals until you identify values.

Life is the ultimate value. For every man, his own life must be his highest value. In order for him to survive, man must use his only tool of survival, his mind. His brain and his senses are his means of knowing reality and are indispensible for his survival. Anything that limits the use of his mind threatens his survival and promotes his injury or death. Anything that limits his use of his senses threatens his existence.

Faith, which is essential for any belief, especially religious belief, threatens the use of his mind. Faith is the belief in the unreal. It is not rational since it is not something that man can detect from his senses and rational faculty. It elevates an imaginary reality to a higher level than the one that he can perceive with his senses. It causes him not to trust his mind or senses. Faith bypasses mans mind and his senses. It limits and sometimes prohibits the use of his tool of survival. It threatens his existence. Faith is evil.

Religion, which requires faith or the bypassing of mans rational faculty, is therefore evil. All religions are evil in this regard, but some are worse than others.

The worst religion that I can think of is the Arum Shoom (spelling?) death cult. They believe in some apocalypse and frequently try to cause one.

Is one surprised that so many wars are centered on questions of religion? You can't convince a stranger that your fantasy (if you are the first prophet) or someone else's fantasy (if you are a follower of that particular religion) is better than the fantasy that he holds unless he finds your fantasy somewhat more pleasing. If you can't do that then try to convince him of the "eternal truth" of your fantasy through fear. Fear of hell, fear of loss of status, or fear of death or torture. Religion and compulsion go together in theory and they certainly go together in practice.

The violence stemming from Islam is just the naked face of religion. Look at it! It's evil, and it's the result of faith. With no rationality to "moderate" it in these backward, pre-Enlightenment societies, it has to show its true colors.

It's easy to see this in "pure Islam" as practiced by the Wahhabis. They state it explicitly, "They love life, We love death." They follow this in practice with suicide bombings, beheadings, coercion and frequently in Islamic societies, genocide, even from "moderate" Islamic states. What is "moderate" is the amount of killing in these countries.

I can think of no more a death-worshipping event than the suicide/mass murders that we see splashed before our eyes on an almost daily basis.

September 11th was an excellent example of their death worship. These creatures were anti-living. The Columbine killers had a similar fantasy of crashing a 747 into Manhattan. They only had to live another 2 1/2 years to see their nihilistic fantasy in real life. They were true nihilists since they killed themselves last, negating their own lives and completing their death worship.

Religion is evil. Islam is just the worst case of it and it's no accident that all the world's terrorists are Muslims!

Well in the tufsir of Maududi it clearly says that the muslims were attacked and were defending themselves. Its not my opinion.

re: DP111

I dont know which koran you read....seriously. Rape is the probbaly the most disgusting crime and it isn't justified in any part of the koran. Plz read with ur eyes open this time. By these comments I am alomost certain that you are trying to defame Islam and haven't read it.

Carolyn2:

And from insults to threats. Rather pathetic attempts at da'wa, which always end with the threat that we will burn in hell if they don't kill us first.

You're right - lately it's been two at a time.

DP111:

You've forgotten "Paul", who saw the light and felt compelled to "revert" to islam a few weeks after 9/11, but couldn't remember a single motto from his seven years in the Navy, nor in which unit he served, etc. He ran away quickly, as I recall.

dst:

I'm going to address you on the off-chance that you're not a muslim.

Don't confuse "religious phobia" with revulsion. Many of us have studied islam extensively and find it abhorrent. islam is a belief system whose stated goal, as described in its own canonical texts, is to subjugate the entire globe by force if necessary and establish a worldwide caliphate under shariah law. We WILL judge islam by the hateful actions of its adherents, we will hold them to account accordingly, and we will despise them not only for what they do but also for what they chose to believe - just as we would Nazis. It's islamofascism, and it must be resisted, replaced or eliminated.

Ben Bitdiddle:
I too set out to watch the beheading video but had to rush and out get fresh air. To see the sky, clouds, trees and birds, just to remind myself that despite the evil that is islam, the world is still a beautiful place. Never again will I willingly watch another of these videos. I suppose you know that these videos and DVDs of beheadings are selling quite well in the Islamic world. In the UK, they are even being viewed on the latest mobile phones. The depths of immorality and barbarity that muslims have sunk to, is beyond comprehension.

You advocate an all out war if that is what is required. I do not think that is likely, as our public would not allow our military to inflict the casualties that are required to change the attitude of the enemy. One cannot have won a war unless the enemy realises that not only has he lost but his whole ideology has lost. Besides, muslims will not fight. They will simply stay at home and play the victim to elicit sympathy from our liberals at home.

We do have a strategy though that won us a war against another totalitarian enemy, the Soviet Union and its empire. Our policy was to effectively quarantine the Warsaw pact. No trade except the essential. No immigration from those countries either. And above all, no Aid to the Warsaw pact nations. The end result was the collapse of the Warsaw pact. If we did something similar to the islamic world, it will die faster then the communist east. At least the Russians and East Germans had some semblance of industry. Islamic nations have nothing but arrogance born of islam and a debilitating fatalism, again born from the koran. Faced with a rapidly expanding population and no ability to export it to the West, no aid and nothing, it will begin to concentrate the mind of thinking muslims, making them question the validity of islam.

I'm mindful of the fact that islam was becoming irrelevant in muslim nations a mere 30 years ago, as muslim nations looked for some alternate ideology. Hence Nasserite socialism, Baathism etc. It was Saudi oil money and above all, the opening of Western gates to islamic immigration, that has been the oxygen to islamic revival, and its attendant handmaiden, the Jihad.

AN ASIDE NOTE

cooperation: Most people do not solidify their religious beliefs until they are in their mid- to late-twenties, at least in this country. After that age, it usually does not make any difference what is said to a person or what arguments are used, they are comfortable with what they believe and to hell with logic and argument.

I personally don't debate the question of religion with anyone over 25.

Trust your senses and trust your own mind. Gather all the information you can, read as much history, observe real politics in action and you can integrate all of what you know into a coherent picture.

For example, you can observe on a daily basis John Kerry selling his soul just to gain power, since the gigolo has already satisfied his lust for money and his age precludes much lust for sex.

*expect any debate on religion to be acrimonius*
*all religions suck, some suck more than others*
*since the person believes in someone else's hallucinations, don't expect too much rationality and logic out of them*

*Read atheist literature, especially Ayn Rand, as it does not dwell on the silly details contained in any one religion. Most atheist literature is just Christian bashing, so it's of limited use.
*be willing to examine points of view that conflict with your beliefs*

MetalMuncher:

No Santa Claus?

I WASN'T READY TO KNOW THAT YET!

I do accept that there is a distinction between revulsion and phobia; although revulsion sometimes stems from phobia, they are distinct. I'd associate phobia with conspiricism.

Conspiracism takes disproof of a thing they believe to be true as the best possible truth that it it is true, but that the guardians of secret knowledge seeking to suppress it. Its a pattern of thinking that you see a lot on the left, and represents a significant strand of Chomsky's thesis. Its also evident on the right and with islamists: have a read of the conspiracy sites which gut the Talmud and quote verses which PROVE that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are true. And you also see it here.

From time to time, muslims pop up and say "this really isn't something I believe in, and if that's what some preachers say I ought to believe, well, I refuse to do so". And, inevitably, somebody says that they must be lying.

Conspiracism is fed by, and feeds upon, paranoia. Paranoia breed phobias.

DP111:
England may be too squeamish about casualties, but after a long and bloody war, the Yanks will not be too squeamish to drop atomic or hydrogen bombs, especially after one of our cities has been taken out with a nuclear weapon. The Jihadis know that we were the only country to use nuclear weapons in war. They nuke us, we nuke them harder! Religious wars are *always* genocidal wars, otherwise, what's the point?

American GI's in the Japanese theatre in WWII used to decorate the outside of their tanks with the severed heads of the Japanese soldiers!
Uuhh-Rha!

"Examples of Shariah Law
What is the Shariah?

To whom it may concern:

Islam is often in the news these days. News articles that relate to Islam sometimes refer to the Shariah. What is the Shariah? The Shariah is the Islamic Sacred Law which was developed hundreds of years ago by Islamic jurists using the Koran and hadith (remembrances about what the Prophet Muhammad said and did during the time he was alive) as guideposts. The Shariah outlines a complete way of life in a legal framework which tells you how to do everything from how to pray to how to go to the bathroom. What does the Shariah law actually state? Here are some examples of Shariah law:

1. Offensive, military jihad against non-Muslims is a communal, religious obligation;
2. A person who is ignorant about Islamic legal opinion must follow the legal opinion of a scholar;
3. The penalty for a Muslim apostate (someone who no longer believes in or no longer follows the tenets of Islam) is death;
4. When slaughtering animals for food, a knife must be used to cut the windpipe and gullet;
5. A woman is only eligible to receive half the inheritance of a man;
6. Marriage may be forced on virgins by their father or father’s father;
7. A non-Arab man may not marry an Arab woman;
8. A woman must seek permission from her husband to leave the house;
9. A Muslim man cannot marry a woman who is a Zoroastrian, an idol worshipper, an apostate from Islam or a woman with one parent who is Jewish or Christian, with the other being Zoroastrian; a Muslim woman cannot marry anyone but a Muslim;
10. A free Muslim man may marry up to four women;
11. Retaliation is obligatory in most cases when someone is deliberately murdered except when a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, a Jew or a Christian kills a Muslim apostate or a father or mother kill their offspring;
12. Non-Muslim subjects (Ahl al-Dhimma) of a Muslim state are subject to a series of discriminatory laws – “dhimmitude”;
13. The penalty for fornication or sodomy is being stoned to death;
14. The penalty for an initial theft is amputation of the right hand. Subsequent thefts are penalized by further amputations of feet and hand;
15. A non-Muslim cannot testify against a Muslim in court; a person who is “without respectability” cannot give legal testimony; a woman’s legal testimony is only given half the legal weight of a man’s (and is only acceptable in cases involving property); to legally prove fornication or sodomy requires 4 male witnesses who actually saw the act;
16. The establishment and continuation of the Islamic Caliphate (by force, if necessary) is a communal obligation;
17. Sodomites and Lesbians must be killed;
18. Laughing too much is forbidden;
19. Musical instruments are unlawful;
20. Creating pictures of animate life is forbidden;
21. Female circumcision, which includes the excision of the clitoris, is obligatory;
22. Slavery is permitted;
23. People may be bribed to convert to Islam;
24. Beating a rebellious wife is permissible; and,
25. Lying is permissible in a time of war (or jihad)."

Mentat's article on shariah law

Speaking of the videos of the beheadings, I watched the Nick Berg video and thought I would faint- it was so disturbing. I will never watch another one but I think every American needs to see what these monsters are capable of at least one time. You think you know what it is but the real experience is not like anything you can imagine.

Not wanting to be rude - and I promise, this is my last post on this thread - but the message of this comments thread seems to be:

"So, you thought that the islamists had a monopoly on lunatics, eh?"

I daresay that, under the current circumstances, the paranoid and the phobic, as well as the courageous and patriotic lovers of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, will be the survivors and the victors in the Battle that is to come.

Ah, Carolyn2, you called it first. This is probably the first time I've been even half-way fooled.

dst is a muslim poser, after all.

CGW, way up thread Krkrjak was getting the idea too

God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob(Israel)! when will thou avenge the blood of the oppressed?
Please God, see us through this, since we've prayed in Jesus name. (Amen)!
Even in persecution, He(Jesus) is Lord!
Written by,
Ayatollah Dase (SWT).

Unfortunately cooperation, it is not our job to justify our reaction to people who behead and murder and delcare that they do this in the name of THEIR religion, that is YOUR religion's responsibility. Moderate and extremist alike, the world needs a better understanding of Islam, and to be honest, right now most people are learning about Islam through extremists. This is YOUR battle for YOUR future.

The extremists have at least a 15 year head start on you, but your religion hangs in the balance so I suggest motivation and expedicious actions.

Moose

cooperation
I wrote:
As a manual for plunder, rape and murder, it has no equal.

From the time of mohammeds conquests, his one objective was to divide the loot(plunder), kill male prisoners (murder), and share out the women prisoners (rape).

Actions speak louder then words.

cooperation, why do you waste your time and above all your intellectual honesty, in defending the indefensible? It is not this or that sura, or that passage in context with this sura in the koran. As a whole, the koran is an immoral text, with little or no redeeming feature in it, that makes it worthwhile for it to be reformed - that is, if it is possible at all.

One matter that I find incomprehensible in your development, is that you went from Atheism to islam. Very strange. MetalMuncher's post is a good example of the rational discourse of an Atheist. From such a viewpoint to islam seems a very strange journey indeed. How on earth did you manage it?

In the meantime, take a trip to

www.faithfreedom.org

You will find Ali Sena a most understanding and agreeable host, willing to answer many of the questions of islam, that puzzle so many in the world, muslims and rational humans alike.

---------------------
CGW: Too right. I forgot Paul who saw the light of islam as the Twin Towers fell.

In my defence, there have been so many of these trolls of late, pretending to be something they are not, that I'm beginning to lose track of them. Now we have a "16 year old kid".

What next? A disabled Buddhist who was caught in the Twin Towers on 9/11, saw the light of islam and was saved?

Talk about taqiyya and kitman . . . these posers cannot even be honest about their very IDENTITIES, yet they expect their pathetic apologetics and feeble attempts at da'wa to impress those who know better.

As I've said before, I've seen muslims deny vehemently truths about their own doctrines about which they were ignorant on this very site. They were told not to believe us, but to check with their imams. Sure enough, they came back acknowledging our claims, but defending the moral perversions just the same.

Many of us know more about islam than some muslims do, but they always think that they can "enlighten" us. So misguided - and such a colossal waste of our time!

MUST READ IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND ISLAM

Re:CGW

I seriouslt hope that this is enough to show people what Islam really says. Im tryin to give you guys the right view of Islam so plz have an open mind. Plz dont judge me by my age and plz dont think im here on missionary business. Im just trying to shatter the wall of hatred which some people have against Islam. Why do people think I'm lying when I tell them my age. Do you wnat to see my bith certificate or something?? What will it take u to believe that Im presenting pure Islam. Poor DP111 is in denial cuz i have refutted everything he has every believed in. Keep spinning guys i think ur gonna fly into orbit!

1. Offensive, military jihad against non-Muslims is a communal, religious obligation;
2. A person who is ignorant about Islamic legal opinion must follow the legal opinion of a scholar;
3. The penalty for a Muslim apostate (someone who no longer believes in or no longer follows the tenets of Islam) is death;
4. When slaughtering animals for food, a knife must be used to cut the windpipe and gullet;
5. A woman is only eligible to receive half the inheritance of a man;
6. Marriage may be forced on virgins by their father or father’s father;
7. A non-Arab man may not marry an Arab woman;
8. A woman must seek permission from her husband to leave the house;
9. A Muslim man cannot marry a woman who is a Zoroastrian, an idol worshipper, an apostate from Islam or a woman with one parent who is Jewish or Christian, with the other being Zoroastrian; a Muslim woman cannot marry anyone but a Muslim;
10. A free Muslim man may marry up to four women;
11. Retaliation is obligatory in most cases when someone is deliberately murdered except when a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, a Jew or a Christian kills a Muslim apostate or a father or mother kill their offspring;
12. Non-Muslim subjects (Ahl al-Dhimma) of a Muslim state are subject to a series of discriminatory laws – “dhimmitude”;
13. The penalty for fornication or sodomy is being stoned to death;
14. The penalty for an initial theft is amputation of the right hand. Subsequent thefts are penalized by further amputations of feet and hand;
15. A non-Muslim cannot testify against a Muslim in court; a person who is “without respectability” cannot give legal testimony; a woman’s legal testimony is only given half the legal weight of a man’s (and is only acceptable in cases involving property); to legally prove fornication or sodomy requires 4 male witnesses who actually saw the act;
16. The establishment and continuation of the Islamic Caliphate (by force, if necessary) is a communal obligation;
17. Sodomites and Lesbians must be killed;
18. Laughing too much is forbidden;
19. Musical instruments are unlawful;
20. Creating pictures of animate life is forbidden;
21. Female circumcision, which includes the excision of the clitoris, is obligatory;
22. Slavery is permitted;
23. People may be bribed to convert to Islam;
24. Beating a rebellious wife is permissible; and,
25. Lying is permissible in a time of war (or jihad)."

Lets go..........

1) Not ture: I have already proved why. Some believe it some dont. All life is sacred in Islam.
2) Only true under a nation which is under Islamic law. I dont see the point.
3) U have to understand y this was allowed. During the 600's in Arabia what the Pagans would do is that they would convert to islam and then convert back just to humiliate Islam. In todays society this law would no be allowed.
4)Shows how desperate u r trying belittle Islam. What are u trying to prove with this? Islam allows the torturing of animals?? Under Islam an animal cannot be held captive and only killed as a source of food. Dont get ur point.
5)Again half truths. You see that when a woman is married she is supported by her husband. Yet on the other hand the man has to support his family and also take care of his parents. Women dont have to do that. So men under islamic law need it more than women.
6)Marriage cannot be forced on anyone, but still parents so that in todays world. Poverty and Ignorance lead to this.
7)Pointless...........A man can marry up to 4 women based on the marriages of the prophet mohammad.
8)yes thats true only under PURE ISLAMIC LAW. That is to protect her well-being.
9)Look at #7
10)Another good one. LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY

This has been misrepresented. U c Islam calls for a pure society. If a man for any reason is unsatisfied with his wife then in order to stop him from committing adultery he can marry up to 4 wives, but must treat each one fairly and justly.
(VERY HARD TO DO )

11)ABSOLUTELY WRONG

Under islamic laws there are 3 stages of Punishments.

1) The victims family forgives the culprit
2) They can ask for reparations
3) They seek the punishments.

Killing a child is considered to be the most disgusting crime in Islam and has a secere punishment.

12)Refer to posts be either me or Mr. Spencer. He says Yes I say NO

13) YES

14) Again Half Truths: Under Islamic law that punishment cannot be enforced until every single person has a means of provision for his family. Then if that person steals he is considered ingrateful and then his had is chopped off.

15)COMPLETELY FALSE: Anyone with a good character can testify in court in any case regardless of sex, race, religion

16)Only applies for muslim nations

17)Homosexuality, just like in chrsitianity, is a grave sin

18)?!?!?!?!?! Sign of desperation...baseless

19)Yes true because they separate a person from religion only under PURE ISLAMIC LAW

20)Yes because that can lead to idoliatry.

21)This is where Arabian culture comes in. This is a sick practice and contradicts the tradtions of Islam. This is pre-Islamic arabic culture.

22)slvery is not permitted in Islam. You cannot even hold a Bird against its will. More of a Taboo

23)ABSOLUTELY FALSE: No one can be bribed, threatened, or forced to accpet Islam. Islam must be accepted willingly and whole heartedly. Yet despite this, forced conversions were done durin muslim histroy.

24)Yes only to preserve the sanctity of one's home. Kind of like in that movie: "WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN". The wife began drinking and it tore the family apart. Yes only in a case like this can it be allowed.

25)Lying is only allowed if it can help a person. For example if a guys hiding and is being searched by a guy who's trying to kill him, then inorder to save his life can lying be allowed.

Yes there are many aspects of Islam which need to be reformed and brought to the new millenium, but plz dont lie about Islam. That doesn't help anyone.

MetalMuncher:

At this moment I'm not sure if America has the will to retaliate even if it was nuked. So far after 9/11, its response has been one of a mercy mission to the islamic world. Rescuing the Afghans from the Taliban and the Iraqis from Saddam, and then showering them with the hard earned dollars.

As Wretchard has argued in his Three Conjectures, the detonation of a single nuke in the US must inevitably lead to the immediate and complete annihilation of the islamic world. Proportionate response is not possible in a nuclear game. I just do not see that America has the will to that yet. In fact half of America is leaning to Kerry at the moment.

PS:
I like your square root of (-1) and the tooth fairy. Though I think you are being unnecesarily harsh on Santa.

cooperation:
I think that what is written in the holy books does not matter much. Religious texts, which are open to interpretation, are not followed to the letter. It's like a buffet. There are many things there, and people only take what they want. So, if they want to kill someone, they just claim that they are oppressed or this guy is debasing or defaming their religion, so they have to "defend Islam" and kill him.

Remember the saying:
"The law is only as good as the people that interpret or practice it."

-Examples of this abound. The Soviet Union had a constitution guaranteeing free speech.

The level of thinking or civilization within the Arab world is like 15th century Spain during the Inquisition.

Eventually, there will have to be some Muslim Reformation or there will be a religious war. A war if the West still has any spine left.

My dear "cooperation":

You say: "This is one aspect, such as many others that need reform, but u cannot just say that it requires only 4 males witnesses. That is wrong."

"As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation)." Qur'an, An-Nisa 15 (4:15).

"...get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her." Qur'an, Al-Baqara 282 (2:282).

I am aware that not all Islamic countries abide by these stipulations today; however, their Qur'anic derivation makes them part of the bedrock of the Sharia: four male witnesses for sexual crime, and two women's testimony equals that of one man.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

My fellow JWers:

For those of you who haven't already, I suggest you read Mentat's article on shariah law in its entirety. He cites the relevant legal clauses for each of the above-cited examples of shariah law, as opposed to the muslim claim that "It's not true", etc. without backing the claim up with any quotes, sources, etc. Judge for yourselves which case has been successfully proven by the documentation of the argument, and judge the refutation of the article by the same criteria.

Posted by: cooperation
If anyone slays a single soul--unless it be in punishment for murder or for spreading corruption on earth--it shall be as though he had slain all humankind

Well this verse is so ambagious you are justified no matter what you do!

The Qur’an looks a little short on love also!

cooperation
Can you find anything like this in the Qur’an??
Psa 11:5 Jehovah tries the righteous; but His soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence : is this verse speaking about Islam??
Pro 10:18 He who hides hatred with lying lips, and he who speaks a slander, is a fool.
Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who listens to advice is wise.

Isa Al Masih

Cooperation:
I commend and respect you for venturing out into this part of the world to maybe learn something of true value. I have found that due to the conflicts that are taking place around the world, I did not know what was going on. I started exploring the internet (fastest way to explore) and discovered many different things from many different people. I try and be fair and keep an open mind and gather information that common sense says is a benefit to this world. At the present time, I can not condone the actions taken by those who commit crimes of hostage taking - murdering hostages including children - murdering hostage by beheading. There are many more activities of these people I do not agree with. It would be a benefit to everyone if the peaceful people of this group would come forward and try and put a stop to this. When they do not, I feel they are condoning it. Having said that, I wish you well in your quest for the truth. As a suggestion, read very carefully what Robert Spencer says. I find he has great valuable knowledge.

Metalmuncher: I agree with you that all religion is evil, and that Islam is the worst. Sort of like Mussolini and Hitler were both fascists but Hitler was the worst.

Cooperation: was is your attitude towards those who apostate from Islam?

Cooperation, I meant what is your attitude towards those who apostate from Islam?

Cooperation, I meant what is your attitude towards those who apostate from Islam?

cooperation:

Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought in while the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”

Did I say rape? More like pedophilia.

For a moment I had hope that you may be a genuinely trying to get to grips with the idiocy of islam.

yeah where do you sign up for the 72 virgins? i live for my country and i live for my God, but in jhad, what do the females get?????? 72 BLACK AMERICAN MARAINE ROCK HARD C*CKS. God bless Biglie as he looks down from heaven and forgives his killers ,,,, sorry for sp's

What if the 72 virgins are really virgin men??
Does the text say virgin women??

No Islam, Know Peace

Isa al Masih

DP111:
Well, the mercy mission is just part of Bush's altruism. Conservatives are very big on altruism as are the liberals.

Yuri Andropov started the Arab terrorism in the late 1960's against the West. Seems like the chickens are coming home to roost in Russia with their problems in Chechnya.

The Soviet Union also made a big mess in Afganistan because of Jimmy Carter's weakness. Now we are cleaning that up. We should try to set up something stable there. We abandoned Afghanistan in 1989 when the US was done with the Afghans and look what happened. Some countries should just not be left on their own or should I say, be trusted on their own. We still have troops in Germany!

I don't think that we are supposed to care about people in the Muslim world or anywhere else like we would our own citizens, but it is hypocritical to keep the kleptocracies in power while enjoying democracy at home. I think fixing Afghanistan and Iraq is a way to answer the charge of hypocracy. But, if democracy fails in either country after a few years, it's not our fault.

About the US getting nuked. After 9/11 all the politicians were so worried that the people in the US would start going out and collecting scalps after the bombing. That did not happen.

You have CAIR going around and saying every convenience store robbery is a race crime. No, it's not a race crime, you race-baiters, the junkie just wants the money! It's a money crime!

I would have to give the US another generation to become so degenerate that the government would not nuke a nuclear country that nuked us first. But, with Kerry in office, he would probably say we deserved it because we are too wealthy (he should talk!), too materialistic, the slavery, racism, what happened to the Stone Age cultures that were here before Columbus, the pollution, ageism, the endangered species, we must be forgiving, the snail darter, we must not hate them, because hate is wrong...and other altruistic, suicidal nonsense.

Remember, liberalism is Western suicide!

Dhimmi or kafir is just an Islamic way of saying "Untermenschen" or "subhuman."

I was looking at the Middle-east news sites to see what the take on this story was there, and came upon this lovely letter:

Apologies from an American
I opposed the war in Iraq, because I listened to and read the opinions of many Middle Eastern experts and scholars who warned us that this would be too great a task says Jeanni Schipper.
Dear Editor,

I have been watching the news unfold with horror in recent weeks to see the way this 'war' in Iraq is being (mis)handled by the Bush Administration. Consequently my heart goes out to the Iraqi people every day, and I want you to know that there are a lot of Americans who feel the way I do. Please accept my apology for the reprehensible behavior of those soldiers in the prison and their horrible mistreatment and inexcusable torture of Iraqi prisoners. Please accept my apology for the innocent Iraqis who have died during the insurgents flareups. Please accept my apology for the lack of post-war planning and restoring basic services of power and water, following the end of the bombing campaigns. Please accept my apology for the arrogant and misguided approach of our President who has bungled the post-war efforts nearly every step of the way and continues to do so.

Along with many Democrats in America, I opposed the war in Iraq, because I listened to and read the opinions of many Middle Eastern experts and scholars who warned us that this would be too great a task. If you can accept my sincere apology on behalf of the American people, please try not to hate all Americans because of the actions of our government. You must understand that the Bush administration is not representative of most Americans. We are also facing problems in our country with his administration, and our goal is to defeat him from re-election in November.

Sadly, many Americans are unaware of the problems facing the Iraqi people because they rely on the biased media cable TV networks (CNN, FOX and MSNBC) for their news. The negative stories go unreported here for the most part, and death counts and casualties are simply not shown. As result, countless Americans are now turning to the internet to get their news from countries all over the globe in order to read about stories that are not reported here in the U.S.

However, the good thing about democracy is that we can change this administration by our votes in the upcoming November Presidential election. I hope you will remain hopeful for the future of the Iraqi citizens to truly be free in the near future, with support from America and the United Nations, and prospects toward a democratic government of your own choosing. I really wish you a speedy end to the occupation and hardships, and hope we can help you achieve a peaceful and rewarding life as free people in the very near future.

Sincerely,

Jeanni Schipper (housewife, mother and proud Democrat)

Why didn't she just go ahead and say, "Hey, it's ok that you kill people in the brutal way prossible, cause it's ALL our fault".

What a frikken idiot.

I DONT KNOW ABOUT THE VIRGIN THING , BUT IF THERE UGLY , I THINK THERE HAVE VEILS OVER THERE FACE, LIKE THE '' BAG HER FACE '' THINGY ,,, OR DO THEY JUST BEHEAD THEM IF THERE UGLY? ... OR MABYE THERE CHICKS FROM THE U.S OF POMES OR AUSSIES OR BETTER YET 72 mohammad's with no veils,,,,,,,,, COOL YA!

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

KILL! KILL! KILL. What a disgusting religion.
-----------------------
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

I'm not sure who is the greater of the villain in this piece. It is a straight ethical debate between plunder and murder.

And so the litany of murder, pillage and rapine has continued, as a direct consequence of the example of mohammed.

Its not your fault cooperation, that you were born into a religion such as islam. Living in the US, you have the opportunity to leave islam without fear of being murdered by your fellow muslims. That in itself speaks volumes.

I'm still interested though of your journey from Atheism to islam. Waited long enough but it seems that you have decided that it is a question too far for you.
------------------------
Its 2 am here. So will catch you guys tomorrow.

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

KILL! KILL! KILL. What a disgusting religion.
-----------------------
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

I'm not sure who is the greater of the villain in this piece. It is a straight ethical debate between plunder and murder.

And so the litany of murder, pillage and rapine has continued, as a direct consequence of the example of mohammed.

Its not your fault cooperation, that you were born into a religion such as islam. Living in the US, you have the opportunity to leave islam without fear of being murdered by your fellow muslims. That in itself speaks volumes.

I'm still interested though of your journey from Atheism to islam. Waited long enough but it seems that you have decided that it is a question too far for you.
------------------------
Its 2 am here. So will catch you guys tomorrow.

Susan_B:
Whining, guilt-ridden, groveling liberals like that do not deserve to live in a country like this. She needs to spend time in Saddam's prisons when Saddam ran them. She should live in Turkmenistan or Saudi Arabia.

Arabs still have a shame culture. We have a shameless culture over here. If I was an Arab reading that I would just feel complete contempt for her. She's groveling for forgiveness to a people she has not met and does not understand. How does she know how Iraqis must feel? She just wreaks of weakness.

I can see why Arabs who stay in Europe feel only contempt for the Europeans. *I* feel contempt for most of them. Most of them don't even think their culture is worth preserving in a biological sense, let alone a political sense. Look at the huge drop-off in native European births. They really are a culture in decline and they know it. It's a degenerate, self-loathing culture.

"In reality Islam is a revolutionary ideology and programme which seeks to alter the social order of the whole world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and ideals. 'Muslim' is the title of that International Revolutionary Party organized by Islam to carry into effect its revolutionary programme. And 'Jihad' refers to that revolutionary struggle and utmost exertion which the Islamic Party brings into play to acheive this objective."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p8

"Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p9

Cooperation,

Please read the about quoates, several times.

These quoates are based on the Koran. 100%

This is what we oppose. No one here hates Muslims just because they are Muslim.

We reject the forced conversion to Islam, which in the western view, is backward and brutal. There are no equal rights under Islam, no matter how much you try to explain the Koran, history will always prove you to be incorrect.

You CAN change the future, the past is just fact.

Metal,

I've started to answer you a few times, and my anger at this woman is so high right now, my response would be very inapropriate.

But, you hit the nail on the head.

> You advocate an all out war if that is what is
> required. I do not think that is likely, as our
> public would not allow our military to inflict
> the casualties that are required to change the
> attitude of the enemy.

I'm not so much advocating all out war.... yet.
But I'm finding it harder and harder to come up with good reasons to *not* to allow our military to inflict the necessary casualties.

But it is clear that *someone* needs an attitude adjustment.

What was it that OBL said about the "strong horse"? Weakness attracts aggression.

Carolyn.

Whenyou asked about the quote from Osama, this popped into my head:

Advice for the Faithful

BKW's exclusive report on terrorist-murderer Osama bin Laden reveals his little-known stint in the early 1970s as a popular, though somewhat controversial syndicated lifestyle-advice columnist who was carried by many Persian Gulf region newspapers. In Ask Osama -- Advice for the Faithful, bin Laden dispensed advice on everything from gardening to fashion to cooking. Close scrutiny shows that even then certain radical tendencies had begun to emerge. Here are some excerpts from his column that appeared from May 1973 and ran until its abrupt cancellation in October 1975.

May 1973

Dear Osama,
I have been having this problem with my lawnmower. It stalls out easily in hot weather and thus it takes over three hours to cut my small lawn. Any ideas?
-- Oppressed in Basra

Dear Oppressed,
You need more gas, my friend, much more gas. Procure 400 five-gallon containers and fill all of them at the local imperialist Exxon station. Place all 400 containers on your lawn attached to a small explosive device with a timer, then leave with haste (or, if you wish, stay and become a Lawn Martyr for Allah). You will never have to waste valuable time cutting your lawn again.

November 1973

Dear Osama,
My VCR is about five years old and we lost the remote control. I bought one of those "Universal Remotes" at our local Qa-Mart this month, but all it does is raise and lower the volume. I cannot rewind with it, nor can I change channels with it -- I can't even turn the darn thing off without having to get off my lounge chair. Can you suggest a reliable brand of universal remote control?
-- Frustrated in Qatar

Dear Frustrated,
I have had similar problems with my so-called Universal Remote. You must remember, my friend, that the only true Universal Concept is the all-encompassing wrath of the Great One and that Satan lives in all that is outside and impure. Therefore, in my humble opinion, it is best you render Allah's Will with the maximum firepower available. Thirty rounds squeezed off from an AK-47 directly into the picture tube will not only serve to turn off your set, it will erase the decadent infidel Hollywood filth it depicts forever.

July 1974

Dear O.,
What's the deal? Recently I purchased one of those ever-sharp paring knives, but after a week it was so dull it probably couldn't even cut through warm butter.
-- Enraged in Bahrain

Dear Enraged,
Be aware that the infidels who sold you this corrupt tool sprang from the rotten loins of pagan Western colonialism with its hollow promises of material eternity. And now it is your glorious duty to visit upon the manager and his slavish minions the purifying wrath of your Scimitar of Righteousness. And your boundless faith shall make you deaf to their porcine squeals for mercy -- for you shall hear in its place the sacred song of Heaven to sate the insatiable hunger of His Justice as you smite them with the gutter death of the spiritually depraved that they, their mothers and all of their filthy heathen ancestors deserve.

TIP TO THE FAITHFUL: Well-cared-for scimitars will remain sharp and make excellent paring knives if wielded in an enlightened and safety-conscious manner.

October 1975

Dear Mr. bin Laden,
Should I apply my lip liner before or after my lip gloss?
-- Perplexed in the UAE

Dear Perplexed,
Mother Whore of a Thousand Brothels! Jezebel of a Thousand Ages, whose filthy womb holds the rotten seed of the son of Noah! I issue a fatwa on your festering existence. No mercy shall be granted you, soiled harlot, except the mercy of the Stones of Purity that shall be cast by one hundred Fathers and Brothers of Honor and Moral Righteousness upon your unclean bosom.

TIP TO THE FAITHFUL: Lip liner and gloss are unholy indulgences, not to mention real budget busters. A modest burqa, with no accessories, is always a tasteful look for any and all occasions.

Various Personals

To M in Cairo: Hack off his right hand.

To M in Jeddah: Add more hummus and cook over a full, hot flame.

To M in Muscat: Be generous and sincere; show sympathy for her momentary weakness; buy her a dozen roses; take her out for a nice dinner, then stone her.

To M in the Occupied West Bank: Yes, you heard right -- that's 72 virgins for each martyr.

If you liked this article, check out more material from Heisenberg's Fun House.

susan_b, very funny... I need a laugh right now.

Cooperation:

I suggest you read my article on Sharia law:

http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/21475

It is an article based on a Shafi'l interpretation of Sharia law and differs in some respect from the 3 other main Sunni schools, especially with regards to female circumcision.

I find your responses to the bullet points from my article that CGW posted mystifying. You do not call my article up short on female circumcision which most knowledgeable Muslims do as it is not a universal practice; however, you do deny that slavery is permitted under Islam. I suggest that you read the distinguished words of one of Islam's great scholars, Ibn Rushd (known as Averroes in the West) on this issue. In the Distinguished Jurist's Primer, Volume 2 (Ibn Rushd's commentary on Sharia law), on pages 453-477, the Sharia law regarding slavery is discussed in great detail.

Also, as I state in my article, the Qur'an is unambiguous on the matter of slavery:

33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom Allah has given you as booty."

23:1 – “Blessed are the believers, who are humble in their prayers; who avoid profane talk, and give alms to the destitute; who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them) ….”

24:31 - “Believers, turn to Allah in repentance, that you may prosper. Take in marriage those among you who are single and those of your male and female slaves who are honest.”

24:33 – “You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you may make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity.”

4: 24 – “You are also forbidden to take in marriage married women, except captives whom you own as slaves.”

4:92 – “It is unlawful for a believer to kill another believer except by accident. He that accidentally kills a believer must free one Muslim slave and pay blood-money to the family of the victim, unless they choose to give it away in alms.”

I suggest that you read my article in full as you obviously are ignorant about many aspects of Islam. Islam is a complex subject; the more I learn, the less I know. However, some aspects of Islam are unambiguous, uncomplicated and straightforward, even to the most obtuse student.

I had never read the Qur'an until after 9/11. Now, I read it almost daily. I had never read the ahadith, the Sirat Rasul Allah, or any Islamic history. Now, I know much more than most Muslims about their religion, culture and history. And, regrettably, the more I have learned about Islam, the less I like it. To be quite blunt, Muhammad was a psychopath (look up the definition in a psychology textbook). As Ernest Renan said:

"Muslims are the first victims of Islam. Many times I have observed in my travels in the Orient, that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain the others in the practice of religion by terror. To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him."

re: Cooperation, I meant what is your attitude
towards those who apostate from Islam?

I feel that it is their personal opinion ans should be allowed to follow what they feel will lead them to prosperity and salvation.

re:I am aware that not all Islamic countries abide by these stipulations today; however, their Qur'anic derivation makes them part of the bedrock of the Sharia: four male witnesses for sexual crime, and two women's testimony equals that of one man.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Again I say that this needs reformation. But i think u r forgetting a very big part to this law. This was enforced nearly 1400 yeards ago!!! Before Dna testing and Forensic analysis. This may not sound fair in todays society but 1400 years ago this made sense!

Carolyn,

I know the subject here is very serious, but, I had to step away from it for a little while.

Anger is the key word of the day, with all the terrible news.

The letter I found on Middle-East News online, just had me so pissed.

susan_b, I know, that woman has a naive view of the world. She thinks if you just talk things out everything will be hunkey-dory. This is a result of the TV generation, every thing should have a happy ending in 30 minutes or so.

nasty little jihadis
getting off on their snuff films,
vampires pulled by their perverted desires,
pulled by their moon god,lusting after blood,
sex starved, love deprived, sad little jihadis,
never knowing their heaven can be had on earth.
No rebirth for them, no salvation,
only the reputation for evil, cold, dark evil.
nasty little jihadis
who torture and stab and blow up
innocent children,
surely your are sons of satan.
jihadis, you are sons of darkness,
you offer a bowl of bitterness and
will find it repaid with like kind.

Jihadis, I saw the ancestors
on noble steeds
in shades of gray,
they ride with banners flying high,
they have come to help,
listen, hear the wail of the banshee
calling all the spirits of the Free?
Jihadi,"the bell tolls
and it tolls for thee."

Cooperation,

Lets talk of the future. When are the 'Islamic republics' dropping the word Islamic and becoming just republics ? Would you say in next 20 yrs ? Or is secularism and multiculturalism and tolerance only when muslims are in minority ?
So, are the 'Islamic republics' becoming 'republics' in the next 20 yrs ?

OT
"Need any wood"
GW oct 8, 2004 debate

Hey JW crew-

I just logged on after a long day and after seeing news crawls that Bigley was ultimately beheaded.

How will this affect England and the fact that it has the largest and perhaps most vocal Western population of Muslims? Bigley was the hostage with the most visibility and the most press.

From a human standpoint, my heart goes out to his family, especially his elderly mother. From a political standpoint, I have to say that the base animals who continue to do this aren't even considering political ramifications at this point and are mere bloodthirsty animals who crave some sort of validation in the midst of the spiritual vacuum known as Islam.

My dear "cooperation":

You say: "Again I say that this needs reformation. But i think u r forgetting a very big part to this law. This was enforced nearly 1400 yeards ago!!! Before Dna testing and Forensic analysis. This may not sound fair in todays society but 1400 years ago this made sense!"

So you are saying that these rules should be set aside, even though they are in the Qur'an itself?

Cordially
Robert Spencer

New here as a poster, but have been reading the npsts for quite some time. Now tempted by the commnets on this thread to add a thought or two that has occured to me more than once.

Regarding the various interpretations of religious writings and proclamations by religious leaders: to me it seems whatever the words are and whatever various meanings can be attributed to them, people are always going to act in the way they choose and then twist meanings or quote phrases to suit thier own purpose. I seriously doubt the religion is what motivates them. I belief people use religion as an excuse to persue thier own personal goals. Religion is a great alibi to some and a nice battle flag to wave.

Point two: Sad as it is, i do believe that Mr Bigley would never have been released no matter what any government did in his behalf, including meeting the demands of his murderers. After all, I have to believe that once released he would be able to offer great information to the authorities as to where his captors were and who they actually are. Which by the way is something the coalition with it's great spy technology and crack sas and delta squads are unable to accomplish.

cooperation wrote:

22)slvery is not permitted in Islam. You cannot even hold a Bird against its will. More of a Taboo

Forty years ago when my father was a diplomat in Saudi Arabia, I saw with my own eyes slaves in Jeddah. My guide described them as such. They lived in a shanty town in small huts that looked like they were made of hammered oil drums. The slaves were ethnically African (Nubian?) and much blacker than one sees in Europe or the US. Apparently they 'belonged' to a Saudi aristocrat whose palace was nearby.

Just to show that nothing in life is purely black and white, I have to say that these 'slaves' were probably the happiest human beings I have ever seen anywhere! It was night and they were having a terrific time banging on old oil drums, dancing and leaping over bonfires. It looked great fun, but I wondered if they ever got bored if this was their only entertainment.

The other thing that struck me about the slaves (I was only a kid at the time) was that although they lived in squalor in shanty huts, the white robes they wore were immaculately clean.

Historically I think it's true to say that Arabs were trading in African slaves long before Europe and America entered the trade, and have continued long long after all western countries banned the practice. There are several anti-slavery websites where you can find out more about modern slavery.

BTW I read an interview with a Pakistani Islamist the other day and he was promising that when Pakistan conquered India, every Pakistani would be given several Indian slaves. He made the specific claim that there was nothing un-Islamic about slavery.

Benelux-

Saudi Arabia was the last country to "officially" abolish chattel slavery. The year, I believe, was 1964. As you noted, however, it still exists in the Islamic world. Many years ago I knew an Algerian who often accompanied his father on trips to the desert and he swore that deep in the Sahara he witnessed actual slave auctions.

Last night President Bush said this was a "long war". What he didn't come out and say, but what he was getting at is this is a great war between the civilized world who ascribe to the Judeo-Christian faiths and the godforsaken Islamic world. There can be no compromise. We ultamately will have to destroy them all in order to survive ourselves. The sooner we get on with it, the better.

Oh, my! My, my, my! Tsk, tsk!

Oh, I DO hope that "Unsubscriber" (described by Robert in "What's this site for"--003501, today) unsubscribed before reading THIS thread!

Goodness, gracious sakes alive, people, such VENTING!

Good grief, "Unsubscribed," "objective" in NO way means "neutral" or "unemotional" or "non-judgemental," etc.

"Objective" means nothing more or less than consistent with the facts. To have an appropriate emotional response to factual material is entirely objective.

One of the characteristics of a couple of forms of a major mental illness, schizophrenia, is its inappropriate emotional response to a situation or event--laughing, for example, at the news of the death of a loved one. This inappropriate response can also take the form of no response--a failure to distinguish and/or respond to what is good or bad, happy or sad, right or wrong, etc.

I have yet to see any schizophrenic emotional responses out of this crowd; their emotions are entirely consistent with both the kind of threat we face, and its size.

Go Ventors!

Cubed -

The way I read it it wasn't the 'Unsubscriber' who objected to venting but Robert Spencer, who wrote:

"I thought I would take the opportunity to remind you that this is not actually a site intended to allow you to vent your anger. I know that many do so here, and I understand the reasons for that anger, but I have spoken up many times to say that posts labeling all Muslims as evil or calling for genocide are not welcome.

So I ask you to consider: what is the best way to defeat the global jihad? Not by venting. Think strategically when you post, and try not to write something that plays into the hands of those who would destroy us."

This seems a very sensible precaution.

As I read it, the 'Unsubscriber' *assumed* the site was for venting but this wasn't his reason for unsubscribing (the reason isn't given in the short extract reproduced.)

People interested in protecting the credibility of this site should read the whole thread ('What This Site is For'.

Kafira wrote:

"Saudi Arabia was the last country to "officially" abolish chattel slavery. The year, I believe, was 1964. As you noted, however, it still exists in the Islamic world. Many years ago I knew an Algerian who often accompanied his father on trips to the desert and he swore that deep in the Sahara he witnessed actual slave auctions."

I was in SA in the early '60's so that ties in with what you say. I doubt that the slavery disappeared overnight either.

I've often thought about how happy those slaves looked, and I decided that it was because they didn't have any responsibilities, other than doing the basic menial work required of them. Think about it - no worries about losing your job, no taxes, no mortgage, no hard choices to make for yourself. Kind of idyllic in a way.

Islam itself offers the same sort of mental cocoon. You're told just how to do everything, when to do it, what to wear, who to marry, you follow a rigid routine every day of your life. Islam is nothing less than self-imposed slavery on a big scale.

Still on the subject of slavery, I'm always reading in the papers about naive girls from places like the Philippines who go to SA or Kuwait, or a similar ME country, to work as maids...then their rich Arab employers take away their passports and documents and tells them that from now on they're going to work for nothing or get beaten or never go home again. This doesn't just happen in the ME either: there have also been cases in Britain and other countries.

Another example of Muslims thinking they are so superior to lesser mortals that they DESERVE slaves!

cooperation:

Waited for your respones for over 24 hours. It is clear that you are ignorant of what constitutes Athieism. Ignorance coupled with arrogance, is sadly one of the main defining chraceristics of many muslims.

I have real pity on muslims and hope one day they will regain their freedom from the yoke of islam.