It's interesting that Choudary says that the Qur'an justifies the kidnapping and killing of Westerners in "occupied" Muslim lands. This has been denied by numerous high-profile Muslim spokesmen. Why doesn't Choudary heed them? Probably because their denials do not address or adequately refute the Qur'anic justifications he finds. That is why I take issue from time to time with moderates who write articles in the Western press blandly dismissing the idea that the Qur'an or Islam in general justifies such things: it is easy to convince Western non-Muslims of this, but what about the radical Muslims? If the moderates' arguments are useless against them, then they are useless in all ways.
From The Guardian, with thanks to Teri:
A notorious British radical Islamic activist has described Irish and other hostages currently under threat of beheading in Afghanistan and Iraq as 'legitimate targets'.Anjem Choudary, whose fundamentalist group is being watched by security services, has also claimed that the Koran justifies the kidnapping and killing of Westerners in occupied Muslim lands. He accused Irish-born aid worker Margaret Hassan and Co Armagh UN election worker Annetta Flanigan of shoring up the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Choudary told The Observer at Trinity College Dublin: 'They [the women] only have themselves to blame. These people are all legitimate targets.'
Pressed on how Margaret Hassan could be a 'legitimate target' given her opposition to the 2003 invasion of Iraq and her humanitarian work there, Choudary replied: 'She is aiding the occupying power. Even if someone gives an American or British soldier so much as a drink of water, they are backing the occupiers. If you look at the Koran, in one verse in particular it permits the seizure of hostages. Hostage-taking has been part of the Islamic tradition from the time of the Crusaders.'
He said the same principles applied to Annetta Flanigan, who was seized by a pro-Taliban group in Kabul which is demanding all foreign forces leave Afghanistan. Relatives and friends were still waiting this weekend for news about her fate. The Army of Muslims warned on Friday that its deadline on carrying out threats to kill Annetta Flanigan and two other hostages had passed. Then it extended it to last night. The terror group had issued a previous statement on Thursday claiming that their Irish hostage was 'seriously ill' because of the stress of her captivity.
Choudary also refused to express any sympathy for the beheaded British hostage Ken Bigley: 'He was working for the Americans and anyone who collaborates with the American forces is also a legitimate target. If you go out to any occupied Muslim land to work, then you are undoubtedly a legitimate target.'
Choudary was speaking just before a debate at Trinity's Philosophical Society on the motion 'This House believes Islamic fundamentalists take the Prophet's name in vain'.
Apparently Choudary believes otherwise.
People like Choudhary are walking talking advertisements for jihadwatchers everywhere. Could they have more airtime please?
Where are the CIA and Mossad just when you need them? Why don't they surreptiously buy into some of these big name media networks and start disseminating the trutrh? By giving free publicity and airtime to folks like Choudhary to start with.
I guess ptretty soon even the MSM will be overwhelmed in its deliberate ignorance policy. Too many incidents involving islam happening in too many places too much of the time for there not to be a larger story in the background...
Using circular logic almost evey human being on Planet Earth is a legitimate target as those that don't follow the Extreme Muslim party line are blasphemers. Under this narrow definition of who is or isn't a legitimate target, from this moment forward we will each need to be prepared to face the fact that we are the targets of an insane and unswerving ideology.
A few thousand are dictating the terms for existence of several billion people. Ponder that.
Using circular logic almost evey human being on Planet Earth is a legitimate target as those that don't follow the Extreme Muslim party line are blasphemers. Under this narrow definition of who is or isn't a legitimate target, from this moment forward we will each need to be prepared to face the fact that we are the targets of an insane and unswerving ideology.
A few thousand are dictating the terms for existence of several billion people. Ponder that.
Choudary has himself become a legitimate target. When the Western societies begin to collectively remember their own history, they will act in the same manner as their ancestors acted when they were faced with the scourge of jihad.
It amazes me how dhimmified the UK has become. Their collective stupor is so profound that even explicit threats from these zeros that are leveled in their faces from upon their own soil do not seem to register. These people have declared perpetual war on the non-muslim world and nutters like Choudary are hoping that the peace/love let's all meditate for awhile and hope it's gone when we wake up endorphines are not going to soon wear off. Because when they do, Choudary et al may find themselves face to face with the brutal roots of the British culture. It will soon be time to brush the dust off the covers of the battlefield notes from Culloden over a spot of tea, wot?
Here we go again,Muslims re-writing history to fit their current version of reality and justification for murdering God's children for Allah.
Americans must realize that groups like CAIR
only speak for a small number of self-professed Muslims in the USA,and after you factor in that the population in America is only 0.0008 percent
of the total worlds population,then you see why the 99.9992 percent outside of America use a different version of the sanitized Western Quran.
Below is a link to the Muslims Against Terrorism(MAT) retraction which condemned a Islamic leader for stating on public TV that all Israeli's over 18 a valid targets for murder by suicide bombers. Looks like a few scuzzy muzzies
altered the shows transcript to piece together
a different context for statements on the show.
I watch the first airing and then the repeat the next Wednesday evening,the M.A.T. and the C.A.F.(can Arab Fed)have both opined on articles in the newspapers that they claim were taken out of context and printed while not even viewing the show where Dr.Muhammed Elmasry made the comments.
Seems that the actual video of the show wasn't viewed by either the MAT or CAF,now the Islamic spin is to portray the media as Muslim-bashing and not reporting the shows comment by a Jewish guest which has now had his comment twisted out of context.
The reason for Elmasry being investigated by Police for a possible "Hate-crime" for promoting genocide against a named groups is because a viewer filed a complaint which is exactly the advise CAIR gives Muslims for any perceived Anti-Muslim opinion (www,caircan.ca)that hurts their feelings. The program is in English and on a faith-based network,the audiance is listed at 26,000 witin the Toronto area of transmissiom,Elmasry repeated his claim to the newspaper within two days of the show and now he and the Canadian Islamic Congress blames the Zionist controlled media of attacking Muslims and having a anti-islamic agenda.
You only have to look at the Islamic spin coming out of Holland after the Van Gogh murder,first there was the denial that the killer was connected to Islam,then the denial he was part of a terrorist group,then the paranoia that Muslims fear for their life now because of the Anti-Muslim backlash by the Dutch,now some Muslims are justifying the murder because of his attack on Islam and provoking Muslims to kill him.
How tragic that thousands of young men died to liberate Holland only to see that almost 60 years later the Islamists might do what the Nazis
couldn't,turn Holland into a facist Country where any opposition to the new Islamic rule will result in death. Muslims have just spit on the graves of all the Canadian and Americans left on the battlefield in Holland,and next they'll knock down all the crosses on the headstones alaong with the "Star of david" that marks the Jewish soldiers plots.
At least the Nazis had the guts to wear a uniform or armband so you knew which person hated you and was about to murder you,but these neo-facists use civilian garb and hide behind Mosques and democracies.
Here's the MAT's support for murdering Israelis over 18.
http://www.canadianislamiccongress.org/fb/friday_bulletin.php?fbdate=2004-11-05#5
NO ISLAM - KNOW FREEDOM
Every Iman who preaches Jihad, every Muslim who practices it, every Muslim who supports it in word or deed, is a terrorist and needs to be eliminated. And, since Muslims enjoy beheadings and torture of non-Muslims, we should return the favor with mass crucifixions. Better yet, we should start using the tactics of Tammerlane.
Questions that I would sincerely appreciate if some of you would kindly answer:
In the past 6 months:
1) I have come in contact with arabs or muslims in my workplace, place of worship, or neighborhood.
(y / n)
2) engaged muslims or arabs in a face to face dialogue about Islam.
3) attended a lecture at a church which discussed Islam
4) attended an interfaith discussion about Islam and other religions
5) watched a television documentary about Islam
6) physically attended a lecture or service at a local mosque
7) physically attended a lecture or service at a local synagogue
8) attended a lecture at a local college or university about Islam
9) come in contact with arabs or muslims in the course of my daily affairs
10) befriended at least one arab or muslim in the course of my daily affairs
Thank you for your comments.
Posted by: hatshepsut [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 7, 2004 11:44 AM
If you do not want to post your answers to the 10 survey questions here, please email them to me at info@amwanet.org
All replies will be answered. These survey questions will be posted in other similar forums and web logs.
Thank you for your participation.
Anyone who chooses to answer this moron, remember:
He is trying to classify what kind of Hate you suffer from. Which is an Outright LIE about YOU.
He is totally bogus. Why do you keep bothering with him? So he can make a report to post on islamic hate sites around the world?
Don't let this bastard get away with an attempt to discredit. Do not let him do what the Left will be pleased to have him do! Think!
What hateshutup is really about:
http://www.geocities.com/savepenry/nazi.html
This person is attempting to use the same methods.
Oh my God, *hahaha*.
Gary, go back to college and study the TRUE history of psychology, dating back to Plato and Aristotle
(eugenics and Hitler... how pathetic).
Please forgive that last injection.
Please visit THIS site and dispel the illusion that muslim and jews are natural born enemies:
From Neturei Karte (ultra orthodox jewry org)
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/071604Hague.cfm
Statement on the world court
(the hague)
case of the "barrier Wall"
9th July ‘04
PRESS RELEASE BY NETUREI KARTA REPRESENTING ORTHODOX JUDAISM
Orthodox Judaism is incompatible with and totally opposes the philosophy known as Zionism. It condemns Zionism both on the grounds of religious belief and on the grounds of the religious requirement to be compassionate and humanitarian to all mankind.
Neturei Karta is the group name of those Orthodox Jews who are prepared to express openly their religious opposition to Zionism and their sympathy and solidarity with the Palestinian cause in their struggle against the Zionist oppression.
As part of their expression of support for the Palestinian cause, representatives of Neturei Karta take part in protests, which draw attention to the Palestinian struggle, whenever and wherever they can.
THE WORLD, through the Agency of the International Court of Justice, has been examining the legality or otherwise of the physical barrier known as ‘the wall’ being erected by the Zionist State between them and the Palestinians. Our position is as follows:
The Jews were exiled some two thousand years ago by Divine decree from the land now known as Palestine, because they did not maintain the standards expected of them. From that time on we were forbidden and forsworn by our Torah not to attempt to come out of exile through our own efforts. To do so would be a rebellion against the wish of the A-lmighty and we were warned of the dire consequences of transgressing this prohibition.
Exile means that Jews must be loyal subjects of the countries in which they live and not attempt to attain political power over the indigenous populations of those countries. This stringent religious requirement applies equally both in any country in the world and in Palestine, where the indigenous population is the Palestinian people.
Added to the above is the religious humanitarian requirement to treat all individuals and peoples with compassion and consideration. To forcefully deprive a people of their homes and country is totally contrary to this requirement.
It follows therefore that it is the Palestinians, the indigenous population of Palestine, who have the right to rule in Palestine today. According to the Torah and Jewish faith, the Palestinian Arab claim to rule in Palestine is right and just. The Zionist illegitimate claim is illegal and what is more must inevitably be based on loss of life and deprivation of property.
Orthodox Jewry, therefore, pass no opinion on the legality or otherwise of ‘the wall’. We do however pass an opinion of ABSOLUTE ILLEGALITY on the ZIONIST STATE known as ‘Israel’. The root cause of ‘the wall’ is the illegitimate Zionist State that has caused untold suffering to both Jews and Arabs for decades. So many people ignore the root cause of the hate that has spread and engulfed the globe today.
IF THE ZIONIST STATE WERE TO BE DISMANTLED THE WHOLE QUESTION OF ‘THE WALL’ WOULD DISAPPEAR.
We want to tell the world, especially our Palestinian neighbours, that there is no hatred or animosity between Jew and Arab. We wish to live together as friends and neighbours. Let us not forget the peaceful coexistence between Jews and Arabs that existed throughout the centuries. All those memories vanished with the advent of Zionism.
The Zionist oppression of Arabs in Palestine is a tragedy for both the Palestinian and the Jewish peoples.
Opposition to Zionism and its crimes does not mean a hatred for Jews, so called ‘antisemitism’. On the contrary Zionism and its deeds are the biggest threat to Judaism and the biggest cause of ‘antisemitism’
Zionism is not Judaism - Zionists do not represent the Jews
We pray for an end to bloodshed, an end to the suffering of our Palestinian brethren and all innocent people worldwide. We are waiting for the annulment of Zionism and the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist regime, and would welcome the opportunity to dwell in peace in the holy land under a rule entirely in accordance with Palestinian aspirations.
NETUREI KARTA
hatshepsut....
Altough I am unaware of your residency I assume you are Arab Muslim and hence Islam your faith. What would be of interest to me would be for you to pose your survey not to we "infidels" but to your fellow Muslims. Change each reference in your survey from Islam to "Christian" or "infidel".When complete come here and post your findings.No, I will not particpate in your survey. You see hatshepsut, I don't give a whit to understand Islam,the qu'ran or Arab/Muslim culture. What I want is for the Arab Muslims to understand my religion and my culture.I think that I, and all of my fellow Americans learned all they ever need to know about Arabs, Muslims,Islam,and the Qu'ran when on September the 11th, 2001, nineteen Arab muslim psychopaths in the name of Allah murdered 3,000 innocent persons. None of which had in any way caused any harm to either Muslims or Islam. No hatshepsut, there is nothing more I need to know about Islam. But this I do believe about Islam, it must be exposed for what it really is. Islam is caught in a time warp. It is an outdated,outmoded,stone age belief system far beyond it's usefulness in the modern world. Make no mistake hatshepsut,the western world is presently in a war with radical Islamic terrorists, although some have yet to accept the notion. The good people of Holland have just awakened to the realization. But the big and final war is yet to be fought. Yet it is certainly coming. And that hatshepsut is going to be the cultural ideological war between the western and the eastern worlds. My Bible refers to said event as Armageddon. I'm sure you're familiar with the word and it's definition.
Your assumptions are wrong krkrjak. The illusion of my identity is intentional, an attempt to remove the pretense of group association.
Krkrjak, I will be the first to tell you public that the muslims have many problems which the muslims must address.. this is the key. They are capable of doing so, some more willing than others.
And, as I said in other posts, I will do the same research in jihadist sites if I know where they can be found.... most have been removed from the internet.
I will answer these questions, to show my willingess to dialogue with you as you suggested:
I post to no islamic hate sites.. wouldn't know where such sites are found. Perhaps Gary does.
I believe most such sites have long since been removed from the internet. Perhaps Gary knows others.
I ask these survey questions to support research I am doing in this forum and others about neo-fascism as its related socio-psychosis.
I'm looking to see what sociopathology lies beneath the surface for those who hate for the sake of hatred, and those who hate based on perception of other groups, but are open to new information. I call these groups for the purpose of this survey, "inducers", inductive reasoners, and "deducers" deductive reasoners.
The hypothesis is that deductive reasoners will be receptive and open to new information, facts, and ideas as they emerge. Inductive reasoners have already pasted the analysis stage and formulated social theory, so they are not open to new information as it may emerge.
In the ranking of deductive reasoners, the "deducers" at the type of the hierarchy should be the most open-minded reasoners, able to adjust perceptions based on new facts, and at the bottom, those more affected by extraneous information, such as cohort biases.
Here are the questions.
Questions that I would sincerely appreciate if some of you would kindly answer:
In the past 6 months:
1) I have come in contact with christians or jews in my workplace, place of worship, or neighborhood.
YES, daily. They are tolerant of me and I of them.
2) engaged christians or jews in a face to face dialogue about Islam?
Yes, frequently at work. There is a taiwanese christian woman constantly trying to teach me Christianity.
3) attended a lecture at a church which discussed Islam
Not recently.
4) attended an interfaith discussion about Islam and other religions
Yes. I used to be a task force member on an Interfaith Council, but stopped attending because the project had no public visibility.
5) watched a television documentary about Christianity
Yes. While channel surfing I often listen to evangelical-speak.
6) physically attended a lecture or service at a local church
No.
7) physically attended a lecture or service at a local synagogue
No. But was invited to do so.
8) attended a lecture at a local college or university about Christianity.
Yes.
9) come in contact with christians and jews in the course of my daily affairs
Yes.
10) befriended at least one christian or jew in the course of my daily affairs
Yes.
So, with 3 negative answers out of 10, I ranked highly on this survey in the area of objectivity and knowledge of others outside my group.
My response, krkrjak
In the past 6 months:
1) I have come in contact with christians or jews in my workplace, place of worship, or neighborhood.
YES, daily. They are tolerant of me and I of them.
2) engaged christians or jews in a face to face dialogue about Islam?
Yes, frequently at work. There is a taiwanese christian woman constantly trying to teach me Christianity.
3) attended a lecture at a church which discussed Islam
Not recently.
4) attended an interfaith discussion about Islam and other religions
Yes. I used to be a task force member on an Interfaith Council, but stopped attending because the project had no public visibility.
5) watched a television documentary about Christianity
Yes. While channel surfing I often listen to evangelical-speak.
6) physically attended a lecture or service at a local church
No.
7) physically attended a lecture or service at a local synagogue
No. But was invited to do so.
8) attended a lecture at a local college or university about Christianity.
Yes.
9) come in contact with christians and jews in the course of my daily affairs
Yes.
10) befriended at least one christian or jew in the course of my daily affairs
Yes.
So, with 3 negative answers out of 10, I ranked highly on this survey in the area of objectivity and tolerance as well as knowledge of others outside my group.
To any and all posters at Jihad Watch:
Not that you asked, but I don't think you or anyone else should answer this person "Hatshepsut." To do so is to allow him or her to put you on trial, thus shifting the focus away from the global jihad.
Another Muslim, Chan'ad Bahraini, recently asked me all sorts of questions about where I have been in the Middle East, what languages I speak, etc. I suspected that any answer I gave him, he would use for his own purposes, so I declined to answer (whereupon, of course, he used that). But it is a digression: this site, and the anti-jihad effort in general, is not about me. It is not based on where I have been, or what I know or don't know. It is meant to draw attention to the manifest activity of Islamic jihadists, and the ways they use Islamic texts to justify themselves and recruit. Those activities are a fact regardless of who I am.
The moral of the story: don't let attention be diverted away from the jihad.
There have been occasionally some posters here who are over the top, and I have consistently stated that those who call for genocide, nuking Mecca, etc., are not welcome here. However,
"Hatshepsut" is a deluded individual who believes that to resist violent jihad is racism (despite the ideological character of the conflict, transcending all races), that Jews perpetrated 9/11 (despite Osama's avowal that he did it), and that apparently any anti-jihad sentiment is "hate" (despite the fact that it is not Western non-Muslims who are perpetrating religious violence around the globe).
Just don't answer. This site is not about you and how many Muslims you had lunch with. This site is about the global jihad, which continues despite "Hatshepsut's" efforts to divert attention away from it.
Cordially,
Robert Spencer
hatshepsut, you are wasting your time here. Nobody here is interested in your sophistry, we are only interested in defending the freedoms bequeathed to us by the blood of our ancestors. Your Hitleresque statements about 'Zionism' and your 'Palestinian bretheren' reveal who and what you really are, and if necessary we will do to you again what we did 60 years ago. That's the last thing I'll say to you.
My apolgies, Mr Spencer, it seems you and I posted at the same time.
Jews were not responsible for 9/11. There are many good and honest jewish people awaiting God's will to repatriate them to their homelands. Visit the website of Neturei Karte to learn about what orthodox jewry in New York and other places in the US have to say http://www.nkusa.org/activities/statements/02262002statement.cfm
There are many good and honest jewish people who engage in interfaith dialogue with muslims, christians, and hindus to promote tolerance, acceptance and inclusion.
Reference Sudan, I am not a geopolitical expert or political scientist, but I can say that if there is genocide occuring in Sudan in any part, it is not islamic, as such a practice is forbidden in Islam.
Doctor Phibes, I consider that a direct and deliberate internet threat in violation of federal law. Be warned.
"Using the internet to initiate threats of violence is a federal offense"
Was that a not-so-veiled threat of violence, Dr. Phibes? Don't be responsible for getting this site shut down. Be careful.
Dr. Phibes:
I applaud your suggestion of using military force to combat the violent ideology of islamofascism worldwide.
hatshepsut...
You continue to make references to having dialogue.Well alright, I have a few questions I'm sure you wouldn't mind answering.
1.What is your ethnic composition?
2.Where were you born, raised?
3.Where were you educated?
4.Where is your present domicile?
6.What is your religious affiliation?
7.What will the results of your research be used for?
8.What is your current vocation?
9.If not an American or not residing here, what do you really know about Americans?
10.What is it you hope to learn about westerners?
These questions are meant to allow us to know a little bit about you hatshepsut, so I trust you will be honest with your answers.
A group of muslims from the neighbourhood mosque have come to my workplace to invite a few of us to attend a seminar titled "Understand Islam".
I told them that all i need to know about islam i have already learned on 9/11,2001...none of my coworkers made any comments,but none of them volunteered for the seminar,either.
Thank you CGW. The 'anulment of Zionism' clearly means the destruction of the state of Israel, and a military response to such an attack would obviously be the only option.
I was at university with Choudhry. He was a stoner.
For those answering hatshepsut on all the posts today: Stop. He is boring in the extreme and so are the responses to him.
Hatshepsut,
You prick, how dare you even suggest that you could getn this site shut down for Dr.Phibes totally reasonable response to your blather. Muslims are on a global conquest, violent jihad is evidently happening daily, worldwide. The last totalitirian movement that did that was the nazis, and once the rest of the world wake up to that fact, islam will share the same fate as it's cousin nazism. You have been warned, now go fuck a dead pig !!!