Ramona Smith in the Philadelphia Daily News (thanks to Ted Robertson) opines that Osama didn't actually threaten U.S. states based on their votes, as was asserted by MEMRI. Smith, in line with the way Osama's message was reported by the mainstream media, was threatening nations, not individual American states, and was not endorsing any candidate.
However, Smith never mentions that this interpretation doesn't come from MEMRI, but from a radical Muslim website that MEMRI quotes:
The Islamist website Al-Qal'a explained what this sentence meant: "This message was a warning to every U.S. state separately. When he [Osama Bin Laden] said, 'Every state will be determining its own security, and will be responsible for its choice,' it means that any U.S. state that will choose to vote for the white thug Bush as president has chosen to fight us, and we will consider it our enemy, and any state that will vote against Bush has chosen to make peace with us, and we will not characterize it as an enemy. By this characterization, Sheikh Osama wants to drive a wedge in the American body, to weaken it, and he wants to divide the American people itself between enemies of Islam and the Muslims, and those who fight for us, so that he doesn't treat all American people as if they're the same. This letter will have great implications inside the American society, part of which are connected to the American elections, and part of which are connected to what will come after the elections."
What's more, an Egyptian journalist seems to have come to the same conclusions about what Osama meant; it's doubtful that he read the MEMRI piece about the states.
Ted also sent me another piece that asserts that MEMRI "cleverly cherry-picks the vast Arabic press, which serves 300 million people, for the most extreme and objectionable articles and editorials. It carefully does not translate the moderate articles."
This is palpable nonsense. Here are some pieces by and about moderates, translated at MEMRI:
Member of Syrian Reform Movement Criticizes Syrian Regime and Warns Hamas
The Writings of Liberal Saudi Journalist Raid Qusti
A Cairo Conference Calling for Reform Raises the Ire of the Egyptian Religious Establishment
Saudi Government Efforts to Curtail Incitement in Mosques and Press
There are many others besides these.
I just want to make it clear that MEMRI is actually quoting from a random posting in a bulletin board discussion forum on the "Islamist website". It does not appear that the website's owners have endorsed the post.
So what MEMRI hase done is equivalent to asking some random guy off the street to interpret OBL's speech. That doesn't mean we should rule out this interpretation altogether, but it would be nice if MEMRI were to make it clearer that the quote they are using is of some random guy off the street.
Just a reminder - Chan'ad is a muslim.
Taqiyya is always in effect.
I never believe anything that comes from islam, its defenders nor its apologists.
See below. Copied directly and without alteration from MEMRI's site, the precis above Yigel Carmon's post and footnote [2]which gives the definition of the term "ay wilaya", noting that Arabic for country is "dawla". I'd say this is not exactly as Chan'ad is trying to (mis)represent as context.
The tape of Osama bin Laden that was aired on Al-Jazeera [1] on Friday, October 29th included a specific threat to "each U.S. state," designed to influence the outcome of the upcoming election against George W. Bush. The U.S. media in general mistranslated the words "ay wilaya" (which means "each U.S. state") [2] to mean a "country" or "nation" other than the U.S., while in fact the threat was directed specifically at each individual U.S. state. This suggests some knowledge by bin Laden of the U.S. electoral college system. In a section of his speech in which he harshly criticized George W. Bush, bin Laden stated: "Any U.S. state that does not toy with our security automatically guarantees its own security."
The Islamist website Al-Qal'a explained what this sentence meant: "This message was a warning to every U.S. state separately. When he [Osama Bin Laden] said, 'Every state will be determining its own security, and will be responsible for its choice,' it means that any U.S. state that will choose to vote for the white thug Bush as president has chosen to fight us, and we will consider it our enemy, and any state that will vote against Bush has chosen to make peace with us, and we will not characterize it as an enemy. By this characterization, Sheikh Osama wants to drive a wedge in the American body, to weaken it, and he wants to divide the American people itself between enemies of Islam and the Muslims, and those who fight for us, so that he doesn't treat all American people as if they're the same. This letter will have great implications inside the American society, part of which are connected to the American elections, and part of which are connected to what will come after the elections."
[1] Al-Jazeera (Qatar), October 27, 2004.
[2] "Wilaya" refers specifically to a U.S. state; it would never refer to an independent country. The term for such a country is "Dawla."
CGW-
Taqiya is indeed in effect. DIVIDE AND CONQUER.
Last night, when I came across at another thread the attempt by Chan'ad to call into question the scrupulosity of MEMRI's offerings, I was surprised. I had been under the impression that Chan'ad, though a Muslim (by birth, by marriage, by Seeking After the Truth a la Stephen Schwartz and Jalal Eddine Weiss), was someone who might just try to play fair. But her posting here, where she again chooses to studiously ignore the Al-Ahram article of Dr. Fandy, which supports the translation made by MEMRI of "wilaya" as "state" (as Arizona or Maine), that is a lesser unit within a larger sovereignty) -- and surely Al-Ahram, the most important newspaper in Arabic, cannot be dismissed, as the website Al-Qal'a could be, as a site that represents some far-out view. This little episode calls into question Chan'ad's bona fides as a well-wishing, "reformist" and "moderate" Muslim -- and, alas, one is no doubt doomed to many other such disappointments, as all those who have chosen to put their faith, however temporarily, in so-called "moderate" Muslims -- as opposed to forthright, truth-telling, no-holds-barred ex-Muslims -- eventually discover, to their chagrin.
Here is what was posted yesterday, at that other thread:
Chan'ad, self-described as one who "understands Arabic," and who further refers readers here to a website, AbuAardvark, that appears to be the work of someone fluent in English (and possibly with a native command of Arabic, but that is not clear) insists that the MEMRI translation is faulty. Never having discovered a single fault in the scrupulous work of MEMRI's translators, who are completely fluent in Arabic, I find this hard to believe.
Today there is another MEMRI offering, and in it an Egyptian commentator and writer, Dr. Mahmoud Fandy, in Al-Ahram, is quoted as follows:
"Bin Laden's speech was restricted to technical issues of U.S. foreign policy and its relations with the Middle East. In addition, it was restricted to an attempt to influence the voters in every [U.S.] state, with [bin Laden] stating that [each] state is responsible for its own security by means of its vote - and bin Laden's lack of understanding of the internal situation in the U.S. is [yet another] issue, which I will not elaborate on here."
Now, Chan'ad may tell us that yet again MEMRI has made a mistake, and that the interpolated [U.S] before the word "state" is not really being done for the purposes of clarity, but to mislead readers.
But a moment's thought shows that this makes no sense. For Fandy writes that the speech was restricted entirely to matters dealing with the U.S., and "restricted to an attempt to influence the voters in every" -- "state" meaning U.S. state? Or "state" as in a "country"? Fandy clearly thinks it means U.S. state -- the whole point is that it is a speech of capitulation, of Bin Laden admitting that he wants a long hudna, that he feels he is on the run (just as the "Paletinian" leader Arafat changes his tone depending on how beaten he feels, but as soon as he is out of immediate danger, as when the Americans helped arrange his rescue from Beirut, he immediately changes tone -- "at your feet or at your throat" was a famous phrase the British borrowed from elsewhere to apply to how the Arabs and Muslims treated them).
It would make no sense for Fandy to be saying that Bin Laden's speech was "restricted to influence the voters in every country" -- that has no relevance now, and Fandy would not have employed the Arabic for "restricted."
It is Chan'ad who needs to rethink the philological niceties here.
Posted by: Hugh at November 2, 2004 12:23 AM
These seems like a bit of an obsession here at JW to prove that OBL meant individual states instead of nation states.
Since OBL said at the end that Kerry or Bush is not important, I think his statement is ultimately ambiguous. WE CAN'T REALLY KNOW what OBL means or is planning. Add in the potential for Psyops, and I am tempted to say: Screw OBL's agitprop bullshit. The time for talking is over. The time to hunt him down like a rat and kill him is upon us.
Mega~ if You are claiming to have more translation talent than a man who has been studying islam for over 30 years, please do tell us about it.
For everyone else- go here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/
They have several windows across the top, in which constant updates are being reported from across the country. But you have to refresh, say every half hour, to see if anything new has been posted. And a Lot is being posted.
It is being rather fun to keep track of things around the country thru this. First-hand reporting.
I visit MEMRI almost daily and have for at least half a year or more. The Middle East Media Research Institute publishes translations of the good, the bad and the ugly from the Arab and Islamic media. Unfortunately, most falls into the latter two categories, but I expect that's representative of what is out there and not any attempt to present a skewed picture.
I'm sure the scholars (and they are highly qualified scholars who more than understand Arabic) at MEMRI are happy when they find what we would view as positive to translate and post. As so many of them are Israeli, their long-term physical security is totally dependent on a major sea change in attitudes that will foster peace and prosperity in the region.
MEMRI has shown some pieces on arab tv where i have heard brave arab and muslim people express ideas that are rational and perceptive. I have thought them brave people, much in the minority in their society.
MEMRI has also shown me, thank you so very much MEMRI, what many of those who preach islam are telling the believers ( blood curdling bs ), what is taken for intelligent comment on many popular tv program in arab countries and iran re america or israel or zionism or etc, or how it must be, re allah and wife beating, or allah and etc ( hugely scarey bs ).
THANK HEAVENS FOR MEMRITV.
AND AGAIN
THANK YOU MEMRITV.
IT MAY BE MOSTLY ABHORRENT SHIT
IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE SEE IT AND HEAR IT
AND IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THEY KNOW THIS.
MEMRI is fantastic - read it regularly and pass on the articles to the World Studies teachers where I teach - well - they simply shake their heads because they do not know how to react -"is it true? but it is not what we are told in the American Press by the Muslim Apologists featured on the US News shows."
Bravo to those who are not afraid of the truth and willing to tell others!
jihan
As of 12:12am, still no idea who will win this.
Either way we have to support the winner.
On the things that are needed. All else, expect us to keep talley. Especially with a kerry win.
Gary
No fear We knew the polls [Not Polish] we BS and kept working at getting out the vote!!
I Just didn't tell??
Was out there at the polls and on the phone and WE WON and had a great party?
Shame the Democrats are still sore losers!!
November 3, 2004
Once again Democrats prove to be sore losers!!!
KJ
Tell your man we are at war and do not need all this baby stuff!!
Remember even the guy in Afghan conceded because he didn’t want to put his country through this crap!!
I guess that the blue states don’t need any HLS money??
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/2/183703.shtml
Bush Wins Re-election
NewsMax.com Wires
Tuesday, Nov. 2, 2004
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/1/82714.shtml
Reprinted from NewsMax.com
Bias, Malfeasance, and Sins of Omission
Geoff Metcalf
Monday, Nov. 1, 2004
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing!" may or may not be attributable to Edmund Burke, but the sentiment (regardless of authorship) is axiomatic.
http://www.newsmax.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?
page=http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/10/25/85222.shtml
Reprinted from NewsMax.com
No Appeasement in the War on Terror
Geoff Metcalf
Monday, Oct. 25, 2004
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
--George Santayana America faces a critical choice: The Bush Doctrine of pre-emption vs. The Kerry ‘Plan’ of appeasement, U.N. ‘approval’ and response.
Once upon a time long ago and far away (in 1389) the Ottoman Turks were rolling across Europe. They crushed everything and anyone in their path. It was a religious war. Anyone failing to convert to Islam was doomed.
Like our terrorist enemies today, they could not be appeased, compromised with, or offered any accommodation.
Serbian women were raped and sold into slavery with their children. Men who survived the battlefield were castrated and blinded to make them compliant slaves.
Entire cities became funeral pyres predating (and foreshadowing) our national disaster of 9/11. The Turks at one point nailed over 12,000 Serbians to crosses to mock the death of Christ and the faith of the Serbs.
The Turkish invasion of Europe appeared unstoppable, inevitable, and a done deal ... until they reached the Kosovo Plain.
A Serbian prince, Lazar Hrebeljanovic, resisted the Turks with faith, unbridled courage, and commitment.
The June 1389 battle at the Field of Blackbirds saw some 77,000 Christian knights and soldiers meet the Turks. They all pledged (to each other and to Christ) they would die rather than convert to Mohammedism. Much like our founding fathers pledged “with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”
The liberal left has turned America into an effete sectarian society eschewing anything ‘religious’ as a false violation of separation of church and state. The misused fictional axiom ignores the intent of the framers.
The founder’s intent was to keep ‘government’ out of religion…not to banish religion from government.
77,000 Christian soldiers led by Serbian Prince Lazar engaged in an horrific battle to the death. They literally sacrificed their lives to stop the advance of Mohammed’s horde…not just to save the freedom of Serbia from the advance of Mohammed’s barbaric hordes…but of all Europe.
When the battle was over the best of Serbian men and their prince were dead on a field soaked with their blood. However, the martyrs for their faith fought so valiantly, ripping such an epic cost from Mohammed, that the advance into the heart of Europe was stopped.
When word of the Prince’s death reached a group of knights they raced headlong through the enemy lines ... charging into the center of the enemy camp. They killed the Turkish leader Emir Murad I in his tent. Then they too died in hand-to-hand combat outnumbered two hundred to one.
Masada, Thermopylae, and the Alamo were mirrored in Kosovo. Kosovo Field became to the Serbian people "Acampo Santo," The Holy Field. It is considered by many historians of the Christian Church to be the single greatest tomb of Christian martyrs killed in a single day.
Even if you ignore the religiosity of the framers, historical fact demonstrates waiting to respond to aggression is fatal.
It was Bill Clinton’s aggression siding with Albanian Muslims against the Christian Serbs that wasn’t only counter-intuitive but literally put us on the wrong side of a conflict destined to touch our shores.
Six hundred years ago on the field of Kosovo the Christian army marched toward death. In Constantinople they remained in the town hoping to the last moment that death would somehow turn its back on them. It didn’t.
We are reluctant and diffident crusaders in a holy war no one (other than our enemy) dare acknowledge.
Political correctness, revisionist history, and a silent, cowardly collection of alleged ‘moderate’ Muslims ignore the empirical (and historic) reality. Osama bin Laden and his gang consider this ‘war on terrorism’ as a continuation of the Crusades…and it IS.
I love dogs. I like most dogs better than most people. But if a rabid dog threatens my family I will kill it. I won’t try to pet it, train it, or feed it. I will kill it.
The current crusade that no one dare acknowledge presents a dogma that cannot be accommodated, appeased, OR negotiated. The only solution is a campaign of annihilation.
We have tried the carrot only to have our hands cut off and our children slaughtered. It is ‘Slingblade’ time ... not a Neville Chamberlain/John Kerry appeasement.
Like the soldiers of prince Lazar six hundred years ago, and like the framers who gifted us with the republic, it is time to commit “with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.” It is necessary to defeat the enemy intent on converting or killing us.
That cannot and will not be done with ‘summits’, appeasement, or compromise.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/11/3/35501.shtml
Reprinted from NewsMax.com
Wednesday, Nov. 3, 2004 3:53 a.m. EST
Bush Ready to Celebrate His Victory
President Bush will declare his re-election triumph, aides said this morning.
"We will not base our decision on a concession," said adviser Dan Bartlett.
The Associated Press reported, "After winning Nevada, another presidential aide said Bush would soon declare victory."
Do pretend vice president John Edwards and pretend president John Kerry know about this?
Must we dig out our prized official Sore Loserman Crying Towel?
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the US and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Eyes of the World to their Threat and give them Curage to Stand and Fight them Amen
You can't believe a word of this taqiyya-backlash-prevention-bull. It's there for all to see what Osama said...isn't it???
Unfortunately, Al-Jazeerah made sure we didn't get to see/hear the parts where Osama whines about how hard the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq and the War on Terror have made life for jihadists... ...and his bitter disappointment at the lack of violence to intimidate Afghan voters.