From Zacht Ei (thanks to LGF), a Muslim in Amsterdam explains his position on the van Gogh killing on Dutch TV:
Anchor: Today in several mosques one paid attention to the murder of Theo van Gogh during the Friday prayer. Imams told their flock that the murder was a violation of all principles of Islam. But not everone agrees.Voice-over. The first part of the Friday prayer in the Barang (?) mosque in the Amsterdam precinct of Bos en Lommer was devoted to the murder on Theo van Gogh.
First man: The imam said that he finds the murder horrible and he expressed his compassion with the family and beloved ones of Theo van Gogh. And that this is unacceptable according to all values of Islam. This kind of individual action is not tolerated in Islam.
Note: "This kind of individual action is not tolerated in Islam." So the problem is that the murderer of Theo van Gogh was a freelancer. If he had been acting out the will of the ulama, well! That would have been a different story. But notice that the imam, at least according to this report, didn't seem to say anything about the murder being immoral in itself.
Second man: If you hear something like this, you start thinking in a different way. Like, yes, the imam is right, it's not allowed, it doesn't belong in Islam.Third man: This man (the imam) has given his personal response. He's not expressing everyone's point of view. I say, if he (Mohamed B., the murderer) wouldn't have done it, I could have done it, or somebody else would have done it. Because, that man (Van Gogh) went too far. He had all the possibilities.
Interviewer: You mean, it's self-evident that it has happened?
Third man: It's very self-evident. He had his freedom of speech, but he has never tried to start a discussion or debate. He called Muslims goat fuckers. He received all attention to express that Muslims...
Interviewer: So the murder was in fact a just act?
Third man: That's my opinion. Not everybody's opinion, but that's my opinion. It is just.
Interviewer: But you do agree this doesn't fit the way we think in the Netherlands?
Third man: It's not about the way we think. I'm married myself to a Duth woman. I have five children who have been raised here in the Netherlands. If you try to insult their mother, then this reaction is very normal.
Interviewer: But don't you think that murder can't ever be considered normal?
Third man: Murder is normal. Why wouldn't murder be normal? What happens in Iraq? What do the Americans do to the Iraqi's? Did the Iraqi's ask for that? That's murder as well, and everone has accepted that. Everyone thinks that that's 'deadly normal'.
Well, at least one person was being honest.
And unfortunately for Holland, we seem to have had a "freelancer: of our own last night:
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/08/dutch.bomb.ap/index.html
Article on CNN reporting the bombing of a Muslim school in Amsterdam:
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- A suspected bomb has blown the front door off a Muslim elementary school in a southern Dutch town and shattered windows across the street, days after a suspected Muslim radical killed a Dutch filmmaker, police said.
There is also a list of acts against various mosques. I do understand the outpouring of grief and rage. However, using the same tactics that the Muslims use isn't the solution, in my opinion.
Brainwashed. Is the only word I can use to describe this man's reasoning.
"Brainwashing" is one interpretation. But another interpretation might simply be "enculturated into the mindset of conservative Islam." One can absorb this way of thinking from one's environment, and millions do.
One of the emphases of Mr. Spencer's work, it seems to me, is that the problem is not simply "radical Islamic" (as in "Islamic extremists"), but also "conservative Islam." Or, to put it another way, "conservative Islam" is inherently extremist.
Unless and until (but fat chance of that, I suspect) a genuinely liberal or modernist Islam becomes near-universal in the Muslim world, you will have sincere Muslims who yearn for the purity of the authentic original form of their faith advocating the imposition of 8th century Arabian culture over the entire world.
The retaliation by Dutch extremists is unfortunate, but understandable. The government seems unwilling to address the threat of conservative Islam. In such situations, it is inevitable that frightened and angry people on the other side will take matters into their own hands, hoping to make the environment inhospitable to Muslims (conservative as well as moderate); perhaps they will then leave.
This illustrates the fundamental incompatibility of Islam with Western liberal democracy. Many conservative Muslims feel justified in the use of deadly force to avenge insults (this may be an example of 8th century Arabian culture), where Western liberals (and some, though not all, more extreme people) reserve that for much more serious crimes. Thus, conservative Islam cannot co-exist with freedom of expression. This is seem in the fact that speaking critically of Mohammed is a capital offense in many Islamic countries.
It is a worrisome problem, and will get worse in the future. One hope for change, I think, is in the misery of Muslim women. The deep unhappiness of fully half of the Muslim community may make conservative Islam inherently unstable, though there is not much evidence of that in the last 13 centuries, is there?
Enjoy your freedom while you have it. It may not be forever.
Dhimmisoftheworldunite
Their actions are NOT understandable; they are reprehensible. But, the "Thou shall not kill" street art that the Dutch police tore down last week, should be continued and with full force. "Kill" the Muslims with Christian kindness and advice. Plaster Christian love verses all over Muslim neighborhoods. Translate it into Arabic, too. Make their neighborhood a living Bible. God bless.
It's amazing that without one person being arrested the media and Police know exactly who was responsible,maybe the Islamists are sending a message to the moderate Muslims to stop opposing
the violence used to claim Holland for Allah by making it an Islamic State.
One moderate Muslim that runs a TV show in my city has stated in a newspaper article that he has had death threats by Muslims saying he is not a "true" Muslims and his western practise of Islam is a sin in the eyes of Allah.
Looks like the Islamist will get a free-ticket for killing the Muslims opposed to their tactics,non-Muslims are already being blamed just
because the violence happened after the Van Gogh
Jihad style murder .
The actual Muslim arrested on the scene for murdering Van Gogh has more rights by being held as the "Alleged" killer until it's proven in court, but without a trial or arrests the Muslims have been filled with fear and a new rage since non-Muslims are being blamed while no evidence
has been presented.
Of course with Islam and Allah,you are treated as guilty until proven innocent according to the Quran.
Of course murder IS NORMAL if your basic moral underpinnings are found in Koranic texts that DEMAND that you use revenge and beheadings as a proper way of solving differences.
More than 1350 years of history bears this out. Non-Muslims are now chaffing under pressure from their Muslim neighbors. Some will cave in, and others will retaliate. Inevitably murder must escalate unless the government takes a firm hand.
The question is: on which will side will the government's heavy hand fall -- on that of the native population or that of the immigrants?
History has always told the story. Islam can not mix peacefully with non-Muslims.
Former liberal WTF--don't forget Turkish, Bahasa Indonesia, Farsi, Hausa, Somali, Urdua, and a few other languages, too. Only about 10% of the Islamic world is truly comfortable with the Arabic language.