Of course, there would be no backlash if Theo van Gogh had not been killed, and if the Dutch government and media had not stigmatized as racism any frank discussion of the implications of bringing large numbers of Muslims who believe in Sharia into the country. No innocent people should be victimized anywhere, but articles like these — which again classify this as a problem of racism — are simply trying to shift the mantle of victimhood, so politically valuable these days, to the Muslim community in Holland -- thus again forestalling any genuine discussion of the threat to a free society posed by the Sharia.
From Reuters, with thanks to Kemaste:
THE HAGUE (Reuters) - Selami Aydin's words will comfort many Dutch people if opinion polls are to be believed."I'm thinking of going back to Turkey. Seriously," the 39-year-old Muslim said just a few hundred meters (yards) from the apartment police stormed last Wednesday after a 14-hour siege with suspected Islamic militants. "We're all frightened."
The Netherlands' image as the land of tolerance has been shattered in the two weeks since outspoken filmmaker Theo van Gogh was murdered and a Muslim suspect arrested in the crime.
Since Van Gogh's death on Nov. 2 there have been at least 20 arson attacks on mosques and churches in tit for tat violence.
A Muslim school was damaged by a bomb on Monday, another set ablaze on Tuesday. There have been a number of minor arson attacks on churches and a classroom at a Catholic school in Eindhoven was destroyed by fire on Wednesday.
In the latest suspected arson attack on Saturday, a small mosque in the south was destroyed by fire.
Opinion polls show the majority of Dutch people are uncomfortable with or feel threatened by the presence of foreigners, while support is surging for Geert Wilders, seen as heir to murdered anti-immigration politician Pim Fortuyn.
Aydin's comments are not typical of all Muslims in the working class Laakkwartier district of the Hague, but most are dismayed by the reaction to Van Gogh's death.
Some say racism has been on the rise since Fortuyn's party surged to second in a 2002 election shortly after he was killed by an animal rights activist and has ratcheted up a notch in the past two weeks.
"I think it's got worse," said 18-year-old Dutch-Moroccan Adbelmounir el Idrissi. "I was in a shop the other day and a man butted in the queue. I told him to go to the end. He said: 'Are you going to shoot me if I don't?"'
Others are annoyed that the arrest of Mohammed B., the man accused of killing Van Gogh, and other suspected Islamic radicals has stirred a debate they say is critical of all Muslims, who make up about 6 percent of the Dutch population and are mostly concentrated in cities.
No one interviewed said they condoned the killing of Van Gogh, but many believe his short film "Submission," about violence against women in Islamic society, simply fuelled anti-Muslim sentiment, although few people in the Netherlands actually appear to have seen it....
In the El Mohsinin mosque's large prayer room, a sermon urges those gathered not to take the law into their own hands.
"The Koran means living together," says 60-year-old Achmed Akasar who arrived from Morocco 36 years ago.
Yes, but it mandates living with Jews and Christians only when those groups "feel themselves subdued" (9:29) before Muslims. Is that what Dutch Muslims want for Holland's future? If not, will they repudiate this idea? Doing so would take care of a lot (but not all) of their backlash problem.
From the above article
"The Koran means living together," says 60-year-old Achmed Akasar who arrived from Morocco 36 years ago.
Sure it does.
Why is that muslims cannot stop lying. At best, this statement can be considered as born of ignorance.
"I'm thinking of going back to Turkey. Seriously," the 39-year-old Muslim said...
Well.... all I can say to the Dutch is 'Keep up the pressure.' It looks like it is having results. I intend on being back in the Netherlands again next summer (Was in Europe for Sept & Oct, Spent last week in Netherlands) Hopefully it will be Jihad-free by then. Or at least a lot fewer crescent moons hanging around.
O.T. an article on spreading of Islamists
http://www.appeal-democrat.com/articles/2004/11/14/ap/headlines/d86br0sg2.txt
It is so sad that you quote 9:29 without any context. 9:29 is not an independent verse. It is a continuation of the topic from several verses before.
Yes, Yes, Yes, go back to Turkey! All of you who do not respect western civilization- Go back to to sandbox you came from. The idea that westerners are dirty is insulting to say the least.
"I'm thinking of going back to Turkey. Seriously," the 39-year-old Muslim said
Not a chance. This is just playing the victimisation game.
Why should they leave when the end game is in sight?
Context, by all means, folks should read from 8:1 right on through. Quite a context.
And don't foget the larger context: 9:29 is directly connected to the ethos of the entire Qu'ran vis-a-vis attitudes toward Infidels; the text overall pounds into stone the dehumanization of Infidels (the idea that Infidels are morally deficient, damned to hell, and in an entirely different category from believers), as well as the obligation to oppose, not only with violence, but with utter brutality, in many instances, Infidels who oppose Islam.
It is so sad that you quote 9:29 without any context.
Ah yes, the old "out of context" ploy. All those Koranic injunctions to kill unbelievers, and worse, acted on through the ages, are all out of context.
The real tragedy is that muslims still do not understand the depth of depravity that is the koran and the vile nature of mohammed.
One can truly make a film "The madness of mohammed" and it would be factual and gory as well. The tragedy would be that the film makers would be killed.
O.T. Here is a good article on a site that said nasty things about Theo van Gogh and that he over stepped his rights to freedom of speech. We should flood them with email.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-1359065,00.html
O.T. and here is the offending sites url
http://www.indexonline.org/
There is absolutely no obligation for Infidels to make their countries Muslim-friendly; quite the contrary. From private economic boycotts -- refusal to employ Muslims, to frequent their shops, and so on -- to legal measures taken to prevent the building of mosques, or of minarets, or to limit their size, and a thousand other acts that can reasonably be undertaken -- and will be undertaken, if only people begin to study Qur'an and hadith and sira, not in the way that the smiling taqiyya-promoters would have you study them (under their careful tutelage, and guidance), but as one should, with one's understanding unclouded by the apologists or the Sharing-Ramadan mosque-outreach crowd -- who really think they are having an effect (they are having an effect alright, but not the effect they assumed).
Eventually other measures may have to be taken, but why in god's name would any sensible Infidel, knowing what Islam means for every political and economic assumption and arrangement that underlies Western society, and what it means for much of art and all of science, and for free and skeptical inquiry -- why would anyone want to act in a manner that would not discourage Muslims, and hence the belief-system of Islam, from establishing a sure purchase here, or anywhere in the Lands of the Infidels?
We are not obligated to commit suicide because of a primitive belief-system, nor are Europeans required to bow to demography -- they are certainly well within their moral rights to act as the Czechs did in 1946 with the far smaller threat presented by the Sudeten Germans -- when they were booted out overnight.
When the muslims are allowed to kill us in our own countries,when they are being glorified by the leftist media and when their sensibilities are protected,as well as their "human rights",they love to live in a civilized country and they keep on comming.
But as soon as they feel the slightest resistance,they "threaten"us that they will go back to their places of birth....
At least we now know what to do to make them leave.
And again,is there any way for us to show the dutch people our total support,sympathy and admiration?!
Yeah, "living together" - with Muslims as masters and infidels as 3rd class, protection-tax-paying, humiliated, & unequal. That's if you're lucky enough to survive in the first place. Achmed is either naive or lying.
Out of context, lost in translation, Koranic Arabic too poetic and complex, not Islamic, ... we've heard them all before. And disproven them all, one by one. Maybe you think this is a new forum and we're all beginners to this? We're not.
Sheikh Canuck--the censroship index was such a despicable intellectual prostitute that it dishonored the name "prostitute". I took your advice and sent them a poison pen letter--God forgive me.
This goes out to the people here who talk about "Muslisms" as if somehow they're all the same.
Unfortunately, you may not be sterile. But your simplisitc ideology is.
Truth and Virtue always win eventually, once the youth is exposed to it. Thank God America is so designed.
Your David Horowitz and Robert Spencer are captains going down with a sinking ship. You could not stop the Civil Rights Movement, and I assure you that your backwards bigotry will die with you. Either your grand children--or their children--will believe as I do, and they will look at you the way that we now look at the Southern slave drivers.
(And by the way, I don't mean that as a compliment. The rest of us don't exactly view the Southern slave drivers with admiration)
Dear Mathandhumanity:
On the subject of slave drivers, did you realize that slavery is alive and flourishing in many Islamic countries?
The Islamic scripture condone slavery and also having women as sex-slaves which of course is tantamount to rape.
mathandhumanity,
What is this "Truth and Virtue" of which you speak?
You say "once the youth is exposed to it". So then, presumably in your mind, people don't go bad with the passage of the years. Open your eyes for God's sake!! The courts are filled with older people who lived virtuously in their youth but then turned bad.
And it is incredibly arrogant and dismissive to presume that older people do not also value truth, and are unable to recognise it.
Consider this simple fact:- When Mohammed was alive, he rode around on a horse killing people in the name of Allah. Whereas Jesus went around healing people... The followers of both "religions", understandably, try to emulate the Founder.
I appreciate the gesture of your offering a bunch of words to stuff in my mouth, but I think the reasoning is much better when I speak for myself.
Were the Christian Crusaders trying to emulate Jesus when they fought the Holy Wars? [How can anyone ever fight a war in Jesus's name with a straight face...]
Many religions can be painted as bad, based on true facts.
How about we start quoting Leviticus? How many millions of good Americans should be stoned to death according to selected excerpts of the Christian scripture?
I have seen Christians with signs that say "God Hates Fags"
The KKK is Christian.
But so what?
If you refuse to discern between selected negative aspects of Islam, and Islam itself, then you shouldn't be forgiving when it comes to Christianity either. Unless, of course, you are a flat-out hypocrite.
mathandhumanity,
Yes, you are quite right. Followers of all religions do terribly distort the message of the Founder.
But what about the Founders?
Mohammed rode around on a horse, killing so many people in the "glorious name" of Allah.
Comparing Mohammed to Jesus is like comparing black to white.
Or maybe... you feel/think that all historians who have lived in the last 2000 years were prejudiced, and the Encyclopedia Brittanica and all other reference books on history are just a pack of lies, when they say that Mohammed killed many people. And maybe the Muslim texts which also say likewise are just a pack of lies.
Can you not distinguish between the life of a healer and man of mercy, and a rampant killer??
FORGET ABOUT THE F****** FOLLOWERS!!! LETS LOOK AT THE FOUNDERS. One was a just a fucking murderer, and the other was not...
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him."
-Leviticus 20:9 of the Christian Bible
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them."
-Leviticus 20:13 of the Christian Bible
That sounds like barbaric garbage to me.
Do not offer such unforgiving judgements of a religion unless you are willing to do so to all religions, including your own.
Dear Mathandhumanity
What is says in Leviticus is the Old Testament and the Old Covenant, but the New Testament is different.
For example the instance when the crowd were about to stone a woman to death for adultery and Jesus said 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. One by one the people dropped the rocks that they were clutching, and departed.
Jesus turned to the woman and asked 'Where are your accusers?' 'They are gone, sir' she replied to which Jesus said 'They do not condemn you and neither do I. Go forth and sin no more'.
The point of this is that the Christian message is to hate the sin and love the sinner.
Even during his crucifiction, Jesus said of his killers 'Father forgive them, they know not what they do'.
I will not bore anybody with any quotes from any holy scripture. All I would like to say is that as a Dutch citizen I know what the impact of the death of Theo van Gogh has, and i must say it frightens me. I think Theo van Gogh was a filthy pig, off course this is not a reason to kill someone but with the things he said I know he has hurt a lot of people (myself included). When I was younger my parents told me that I have a freedom of speech, but that this doesn't mean you can say whatever you want.
Normally I don't do these kind of things but reading all the crap above just makes me want to do this. In any religion there are extremists, but you can not say that if a couple of these fruitcakes do something the entire religion is to blame. I was Christened when I was only a couple of months old, but I don't believe in anything. Nor can anybody make me believe in anything. Frankly I don't care what anybody believes in God, Jahweh, Jah, Allah, the Buddha, Krishna, i couldn't care if you worship frogs as a religion. But the fact is that there are always people the do. And they are the ones that are wrong. Nowadays people tend to focus on Islam and just talk a lot of nonsense about it. But look at "us" Christians. We have enslaved almost the entire continent of Africa, we have murdered millions of Jews, native Americans tribes are almost wiped out, the one mighty empire of the Inca was crushed by a handfull of Catholics, we, we are to blame for all the misschief in this world, not Islam.
And for all those who think my spelling isn't correct FUCK YOU!
Mathandhumanity
Please don't confuse people doing something because of their faith and in spite of it.
People like the KKK are Christians only in name but not at heart because Holy Scripture tells us that all of humanity are God's children and that he loves the children of all races equally.
God also loves gays but he hates homosexuality, so anyone who wears a 'God hates queers' badge does not really know God.
On the other hand, a Muslim racist is acting completely within his faith because the prophet Mohammed was a racist who looked down on black people. For example he said that Satan was similar in appearance to a black slave who happened to be nearby, and he commented that black people have not the sense of a donkey.
This is why is Sudan which is one of the most fundamentally Muslim countries we are witnessing genocide against the black people in Darfur.
Benjamini, why can't one say whatever one wants?
Benjamini
Also please don't confuse people who are true to their faith with hypocrites.
In the New Testament, Paul describes slave traders as evil doers. As for South America, no true Christian would have done such cruel things.
As for anti-Semitism, Scripure tells us that God will bless those that show kindness to the Jews.
Benjamini
After the abolitionist William Wilberforce revealed to his ex-college chum, the Prime Minister, William Pitt the truths about slavery, before long Britain had given up slave trading and soon after banned slavery in the British Empire.
In fact much of Britain's involvement in Africa was to stamp out slavery, for example the battle of Ondurman in 1898 when the British defeated the Mahdist Muslims who were objecting to Britain's actions against slavery in Egypt and Sudan.
Benjamini
I too would be interested in knowing how you personally define the difference between freedom of speech and not being allowed to say what you want.
Elephant, (nice nickname BTW)
Excuses for my English it is not entirely what i would like it to be, it isn't my first language.
Freedom of speech is defined as the right to freely say what you please, as well as the related right to hear what others have stated.
And I could not agree more with this.
But this does still not define that you have the freedom to hurt other people with your opinion.
For example I can't say that policeofficers are statepimps. I mean I can say it off course, but it isn't true. Plus if i do i have a chance to get arrested.
hope to have answered your question to your satisfaction
mentioned above is the "politician" Pim Fortuyn.
He is an exellent example
Go figure he was a politician, right?
He called Islam a retarded culture, no my question for you elephant, has he the RIGHT to say that?
Benjamini
Unfortunately no one likes to hear people express opinions that they don't like, but that is the price that people have to pay for living in a free society, in that you can't please all the people all of the time.
In a free society people should be allowed to answer their critics back, but with words not bullets.
Also there is a difference between critising someone's beliefs and verbally attacking them personally.
Pim was merely expressing an opinion of a faith not necessarily its followers.
In fact he has got a lot of evidence to back him up if he says that Islam breeds a backward society.
Pim Fortuyn DID have the right to call Islam a retarded culture. Especially, because it is.
Benjamini
I didn't say that all Muslims are murderers.
There are Muslims who are good people but that makes them hypocrites and bad Muslims.
In says in the koran that Allah hates peaceful Muslims and that he will personally enter hell in order to torture them.
What does worry me though is the conversations that I've had with Turks concering the genocide that they perpetrated on the Armenians in 1915 in that I'm yet to meet a Turk who condemns what they did.
Also I'm concerned that my experience of Muslims in England is that they are on the whole growing less and less westernized and more and more Islamified all the time.
Voltaire,
I hope our paths never cross because i have a thing or two to tell you about Pim Fortuyn
Hi Benjamini,
I also have some very decent colleagues who happen to be born in the tradition of Islam, but do not practice the religion. As in any work environment it's wise not to discuss too much about politics and religion but I do in a roundabout way try to see what their opinions are on various events.
I have dicussed for example stonings in Iran, the events of 911, the deceptions of Tariq Ramadan.
This is what they tend to believe 1) The stonings, as terrible as they are, are traditional and although wrong, they can understand the reasoning behind it.
2) 911 was either caused by the CIA/Mossad, or it was done in full knowledge of the the secret services but was allowed to happen. This would then justify the invasions of two muslim countries.
3) Tariq Ramadam, the deceiving bastard who represents the intellectual face of the jihad stated that there should be a 'moratorium on stonings'. He refused to say it should be banned altogether. My muslim colleagues explain that Tariq Ramadan is clearly scared of being killed should he call for an outright ban. I should add that no one will kill Mr Ramadam for not being muslim enough. He's part of the Muslim Brotherhood for goodness sake.
I used these three examples to show you what kind of responses you will get for discussing these things with 'moderate muslims'. You will hear Excuses and 'understanding' for the immoral behavior of the extremist minority and assuming guilt for nothing. (Despite Bin Laden himself admitting he was responsable for 911)
This gives me some idea why the 99 % of non violent muslims passivly allow the fanatical bastards to get away with it. And if we infidels do something about it we are treated as racists. If anyone can find anything positive about islamic ideology I would love to see evidence for it. The decent muslims are decent, depsite their religion and not because of it.
I would like to bring up one point you made about the crusades a little further up the thread. The 8 or 9 crusades were the only counter attack made by christian lands after the 6 hundred years or so of muslim conquest. This resulted in the 200 year occupation of the Holy Lands. I remind you that Spain was occupied by the muslims during that period, for 700 years.
I realize that you are not christian anymore but have you not asked yourself what happened to all the christians in Alexandria, Antioch, Damascus, present day Turkey, Lebanon etc. Where do you think they went? These were the first places St Paul founded churches at. (Do you think they converted willingly?)
You may be atheist but you are still of european origin. Our laws are inherited from our judeo-christian heritage. The ten commandments mostly reflect the values of our society. The new testament added one more "Treat others as you would wish to be treated". Is that not the most perfect way to encapsulate European thinking? Whether you are left wing or right wing, we all want to to be respected and we accept that we shall respect others.
In Islam, the most important thing is if you are muslim or not. Morality and right and wrong play very little part.
They haven't experienced the true meaning of anti-Muslim backlash......But they will.
Freedom of speech is defined as the right to freely say what you please, as well as the related right to hear what others have stated.
And I could not agree more with this.
But this does still not define that you have the freedom to hurt other people with your opinion.
Certainly it does; if we were only allowed to say what didn't "hurt" others, then by claiming to be "hurt", we could shut down debate.
Most importantly, people who want to live within a society with free speech have to develop a tolerance for hearing things that "hurt" them. If someone says something that "hurts" you, you have to ask yourself, "is what they said true?" If it isn't, then you can ignore it or present the audience with the truth.
It's when people say things that "hurt" and are true that free speech is so critically important.
Voltaire~ keep telling it like it is.
We need more Pym Fortuyns in this world.
As for these dismayed muslims- you don't want to be looked upon as the bad guys? Simple. Turn in the terrorists in your midst. Point out the places they are hiding. Point out where they have been stockpiling weapons. If you want to prove yourselves to the Dutch, this is what you Must do.
This is so typical of people suffering from denial and paranoia,prisons are filled with those thinking their crime wasn't bad enough to get a jail sentence,Alcoholics don't think they have a problem and see you as being odd for not have a beer for breakfast.
CAIR has a history of paranoia and denial,first they denounce an act of terror as un-Islamic and done by a person that's not a "True" Muslim,then they come out with some PSA or press release
that pre-supposes everyone else dislikes them and are racist bigots.
CAIR posted a notice on 9/11/01 that called for calm and not to blame a group of people without any evidence of the purpetrators background,by the 13th of 9/01 they denounced the attack as having a connection to Islam,then they worried about backlash as if all non-Muslims are simpletons that can't figure out how to assign blame for the murders.
CAIR again posted a concern that the beheadings in Iraq might cause Muslim to fear for their lives from the backlash for the killings,again Muslims care more about backlash from the Theo van Gogh murder than the public slaughtering of a civilian by a Muslim.
Backlash and when a unfounded fear turns into a blanket perception on a group for the actions of a few,what's happening in Holland is a well-founded fear and proper blame being placed on Mosques and Islamic leaders that condone the
persons defending Islam and Muhammed.
Remember the old saying,it's always the theif that accuses you of stealing,Muslims worry about backlash because they know that's exactly how they would handle a attack on a Muslim.
Islam is not founded on forgivness and loving your enemies,it's revenge and hate for the enemies and Democratic Countries better wake-up
and see the threat from the Islamists hiding in the Mosques with the approval of the Imam's and other Muslims.
Muhammed can GOGH to hell
"DISMAYED"
Do the idiot's think that Theo Van Gogh might have been a bit dismayed at having been shot and his throat slit, because he exercised his right to free speech ????
The hypocracy of these beasts never ceases to amaze me
I was Christened when I was only a couple of months old, but I don't believe in anything....
I think Theo van Gogh was a filthy pig, off course this is not a reason to kill someone but with the things he said I know he has hurt a lot of people (myself included)......
But look at "us" Christians.
Posted by: benjamini
I think benjamini is a tad bit confused! Or Benjamini is just another taqiyya spewing Moslem!
Why would someone who professes to believes in nothing be hurt by the movie submission, unless they are a Moslem? Moslems have a difficult time with taqiyya because they are very uneducated, they lack common sense, they talk to much and by their own words give themselfs away.
No Mohammadanism, Know Peace
Troll alert!
beep beep beep
This matahdhumanity seems suspiciuosly like hatsheput.....
Pls stay alert for trolls.
I watched the short film 'submission' and quite honestly I cant understand why it was considered 'offensive' unless of course you find the truth 'offensive'. The quotes written on the women were taken directly from the koran, they were not changed in any way, the words that the woman spoke were not offensive, but sad. Perhaps instead of being 'offended' muslims could use the problems that were stated to better themselves, to not treat women worse than dogs, to make women equal to men, etc.....but that wont ever happen will it. Yes I understand that muslims feel that they are pious and holy and find the human body offensive, I always find it laughable that a people who can saw the head off a living human being and play with exploded body parts get squeemish when a woman exposes her wrist. Cooincidence or not....in the last 5 years my city (and surrounding area) has seen a rise in the muslim population by about 10,000....the rise in crime and domestic abuse has increased dramaticly...and I can say firsthand that officers detest going to ANY domestic abuse call....but when muslims are involved it becomes even more dangerous as the muslim men absolutly DO NOT feel they have done any wrong by beating their wives, sisters and daughters and can and often do get violent when attempting to place them under arrest...the most famous case here was of a 5 year old girl named Farah Kahn....because she was 'disobedient' (and yes that is the only reason her disgusting pig of a father gave for his actions, oh yes and that she had the gall to ask him to buy some of her school pictures) she was beaten to death and to hide the crime, he cut the little girls body into small pieces, put the pieces in garbage bags and threw them into the lake....the bags were discovered and he and his wife (not the girls mother, because when he divorced the mother being muslim he got custody in his country of origin) are now serving jail terms...and the POS had the nerve to ask the courts to 'have mercy' on him....when his wife finally spoke, the horror of that little girls last hours as she was chased and beaten were awful and sickening.
Dear Mathandhumanity and Benjamini
The Bible is broken into two parts consisting of Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Old Testament was for the Jewish people and the New Testament for the gentile or non-Jewish people.
These are like clubs in a way.
To belong to the Old Testament club you had to be Jewish, the Old Testament club rules applies only to club members. So unless you are Jewish and a club member, they don’t apply to you. So why complain about their rules?
Same as the New Testament club. The club rules only apply to Christians. So unless you are a Christian the rules don’t apply and I cant understand why you would complain about that which doesn’t apply to you. You if don’t like the club rules you don’t have to belong to the club!
The Moslems also have a club, its called Mohammadanism or Islam for short.
Now the Moslem club is very different than the other clubs.
Their rules apply to me, but I am not a club member?
Their rules apply to all non-members.
The Moslems use their club as a club to enforce their rules on all non-members, its the main club rule!
This is the problem with the Moslem club!
I saw a lot of people try to explain away Leviticus, or say that it doesn't really apply any more, or that it's only what the Jews believe. It all sounded a lot like the explanations of 9:29 that were so hastily rejected. Are you really that entrenched in hypocrisy?
Wake up.
How many Christian Creationists believe Genesis represents the truth? In Sunday School, I was taught many things out of the old testament.
It seems people are only eager to poo-poo the old testament when it exposes their hypocrisy.
Wake up.
"we are to blame for all the misschief in this world, not Islam." posted by Benjamini
Benjamini, you're knowledge of history must be absolutely deplorable for you to make a statement like that. How can you know about all the mischief caused by christianity and be blind to what has been destroyed in the name of islam? I suppose you think that the arab muslims brought peace and harmony to Africa as opposed to the perfidious European Christians. How many polytheists, Buddhists, Hindu’s, Christians and Jews were slaughtered during the muslim conquest. Why do Pakistani’s now remember the Arab conquerors as the heroes who slaughtered, conquered and subdued their own ancestors? In Europe, many have long ago accepted the many faults of Christianity and abandoned it as a lost cause but that’s no reason to accept and tolerate islam, which takes religious fanaticism and intolerance to new extremes. Obviously you have a strong amount of hatred for European history and culture, which is your right but why don’t you pick a more justifiable cause to defend, e.g. Buddhist Tibetans, Sudanese animists, Iraqi Assyrians, Brazilian Amerindians etc.
mathandhumanity,
You said, "Do not offer such unforgiving judgements of a religion unless you are willing to do so to all religions, including your own."
You are committing a logical fallacy here. The "you do it too" argument doesn't refute the point that Islam facilitates violence. It's like this..
Islam (knocking on door): Hi. Let me in! I'm unemployed... I need a job.
The Rest of the Planet: Islam...buddy. You don't look well. Are your fingers falling off? Is that leprosy?
Islam: These rotten extremities are un-Islamic extremities! So what if it's contagious! Take a look at yourself, why-- you have split ends! How DARE you deride me for not being perfectly healthy!
Unfortunately this technique of distraction used by Islam has paralyzed The Rest of the Planet for some time.
Not for much longer though.
mathandhumanity
lets take a close look at these different verses.
Your Bible quotes :
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him."
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them."
The Qur’an
9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
2:216 "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." [Another translation reads:] "Warfare is ordained for you."
4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward."
8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."
Now that is barbaric garbage!
These are direct commands for a Moslem to kill anyone he perceives as an unbeliever.
Much different than your bad Bible quotes!
for your quotes on Leviticus I direct you to this quote from Mr Matthew Henry.
The laws which before were made are in this chapter repeated and penalties annexed to them, that those who would not be deterred from sin by the fear of God might be deterred from it by the fear of punishment. If we will not avoid such and such practices because the law has made them sin (and it is most acceptable when we go on that principle of religion), surely we shall avoid them when the law has made them death, from a principle of self-preservation.
the laws of leviticus are laws of a theocratic state governed by Jehovah. we have no such state in the world at present. one reason is because humanity cannot agree on philosophy. america chose the discipline of dividing the church from the state in order to preserve freedom of thought & religion. once this divide breaks down, then the most powerful theology can take control of the mechanisms of government and can depose the democracy, and then impose their own theocratic take on everyone else. so, one can conclude that democracy is a pragmatic alternative to true theocracy in order to pre-empt false theocracy (of which, for instance, islam fits the bill). a reading of Jesus Christ's sermon on the mount gives the message whereby we can incorporate Biblical principles into our personal lives in spite of the condition of the political state
i'd like to comment on the paragraph in the above article that states "No one interviewed said they condoned the killing of Van Gogh, but many believe his short film "Submission," about violence against women in Islamic society, simply fuelled anti-Muslim sentiment, although few people in the Netherlands actually appear to have seen it...."
this reminds me of farenheit 911. many people have not seen omichael bin mooren's propaganda, yet many credible sources have refuted and proven its assertions false. no one -- but NOBODY -- has refuted or proven the assertions of theo van gogh's movie false. instead, we are visited with a leftwing/islamic nexus attack combining multiculty ad hominen attack with justification for terrorism
give me a break! this is intellectual farce of the nth degree
Plain and simple I don’t see Jew’s or Christians killing anyone for being gay or doing bad things to their parents.
I do see Moslems advocating and killing non-Moslems, simply because they disagree!
MUSLIM MOLE PANICS DUTCH SECRET SERVICE
Jihadists in the Dutch secret service. From the Times Online, with thanks to J:
THE Dutch secret service has been infiltrated by an Islamic extremist linked to the killer of Theo van Gogh, the Dutch film-maker whose murder has accelerated Holland’s transformation from one of Europe’s most tolerant countries into a society increasingly polarised by fears about immigration.
Intelligence sources said last week that a mole working for a terrorist group codenamed the “Hofstad cell” had been arrested on suspicion of relaying information collected by the authorities to its members.
The disclosure has compounded the embarrassment of the security services, which have admitted they were watching Mohammed Bouyeri, the 26-year-old Dutch-born Moroccan charged with van Gogh’s murder, from August 2002.
They ended their surveillance less than two weeks before Bouyeri allegedly shot the film director six times as he cycled down an Amsterdam street, then butchered him with a knife....
There have been more than 20 arson attacks on mosques, churches and schools — the latest early yesterday on a mosque in the southeastern village of Helden. The spiral of attack and counterattack has shattered the image of Dutch society as one that cherishes consensus and abhors conflict.
Jozias van Aartsen, the parliamentary Speaker, warned yesterday: “Jihad has come to the Netherlands.”
The new issue of German magazine "Der Spiegel" (www.spiegel.de) carries the headline (and a graphic) "Allahs daughters without rights". The Spiegel is the left-wing equivalent of Time. I'm not going to buy it because it's left-wing but I wonder if the German left may finally have noticed the dangers of Islam... I sincerely hope so.
Looks like mathandhumanity is proving my point from a earlier post,Muslims defend Islam by claiming that it has slaughtered less people than other faiths.
Not the best way to sell a religion,and BTW,you're trying to blame Jesus for what christians do and you should really blame Muhammed for what he did in the name of Allah.
Islam hasn't grown out of its violent past and the proof is in the Middle east,Muslims put a higher value on a Mosque or Quran than human
beings. The "Holy Sites" are only buildings and God doesn't live in the bricks and mortar,the Quran is a book and God doesn't live in the pages,the violence over trivial issues when a non-Muslim touches a Quran or enters a Mosque is why there is backlash.
Too many Muslims justify murders when the person makes a negative comment about Muhammed or Islam. When an American gets murdered in the street by an Islamists you'll see REAL backlash and Mosques being torched by people that won't use the cover of night,Islam is at war with the west and the Muslim occupiers in Holland won't be tolerated in the USA since citizens are allowed to bare arms to defend the Nation from a foreign
Army(mujahadeen).
mathandhumanity has shown his ignorance about Christ and the fact he needs to resort to insults and rude attacks shows a lack of intelligence for making a valid counter-point.
mohamhumanity and benjammy are obviously moslem trolls. Witness the usual mix of feigned tolerance, anti-Christianity and open abuse (notice how touchy poor benjammy is about his spelling). You always know this site is REALLY getting through to people when the moslem trolls start coming out of the woodwork. But you're too late trolls, the game is up - our numbers are growing everyday, our knowledge increases by the hour. The death rattle of islam has begun - so slink off back to your beheading videos , your words mean nothing here...
LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM !!!!
Benjamini,
You have said some hurtful things about Christians even though there has been some truth in it.
You have also used some offensive (swear words) language in some people's eyes.
Before World War II, Winston Churchill said many offensive things about Hitler and the Nazis.
Should he have held his tongue?
(so as not to offend the sensitivities of Hitler and his nazis.)
And when you say that Islam is not responsible for any ills, you betray your ignorance or lack of honesty.
It seems purported that i am a muslim "troll".
Let me assure you, I truly subscribe to the teachings of Jesus Christ--UNLIKE anyone who is an alleged "Christian" that supports the war on Iraq and potential war against Iran.
This goes out to all the Muslim hatin', Bush Lovin' "Christians":
Renounce your war, or renounce your faith, or announce your utter hypocrisy. YOU CAN NEVER RECONCILE CHRISTIANITY AND WAR.
I doubt that heaven exists, or that Jesus was truly God. But Christ was man who had it right, and thankfully he spread the word.
Somehow I've managed to distill and follow more of Christ's teachings than some of the War Mongering Muslim Hating "Christians" out there that go to church every Sunday. You war-supporting "Christians" don't follow Christ. You follow the muderous image of Mohammed that you purport. How ironic.
So said SonofAlbion,
"LOVE LIFE - HATE ISLAM !!!!"
Spoken like a true Bush Lovin' "Christian" who has forsaken the true meaning of his Christian faith.
We don't need an Anti-Christ to replace Christ. Christ was an incredible gift to this world.
We need Anti-Christians to replace the people like you who would offer hate to this world.
Among true morality and religion, I don't have both. I only have true morality. But at least I'm not the other way around.
If you are truly Christian, renounce your hate and embrace the Greater Love of the world around you.
So I'm supposed to be a troll, whatever that is. I don't know but i'm not a troll nor a hobbit or dwarf, but simply a breathing human being. And my friend I do not watch beheading video's, i've got far better things to do.
I think the major problem with the murder of Theo van Gogh is, that his murderer actually hoped to get shot dead in his encounter with the Dutch police so he could die a martyr. Theo van Gogh is the martyr here, not this Mohammed B. character if he would have been killed, he would just be another dead murderer. A couple of days ago they showed a Palestinian mother on TV, her 17 year old son blew himself up in a bus full of Israelis and she was crying Oh Allah he is with you now, I think this the main problem in the Arab world, the illusion their martyrs will go to heaven with what 72 virgins?
This is my last entry so i just want this cleared i'm not a Muslim lover nor and Christian hater. I'm just an hard working man who tries to understand
Once again mohamhumanity you got it wrong.
I'm not a Christian and I didn't vote for Bush. I'm an aethist who cares about humanity - and because I care about humanity I HATE islam.
MadandNaivity says :
--------"Somehow I've managed to distill and follow more of Christ's teachings than some of the War Mongering Muslim Hating "Christians" out there that go to church every Sunday. You war-supporting "Christians" don't follow Christ. You follow the muderous image of Mohammed that you purport. How ironic."---------
------------------------------
Somehow I've managed to distill and follow more of humanitarianism than some Christian Hating "humanitarians" like you.
Are you saying that the 'murderous image' of Muhammed is just that? - An image? Or reality?
So do you suggest that Christians should love a murdering, miscreant, pedophile and fraud prophet?
You claim to have true morality. Spoken with the arrogance of a true fanatic fundamentalist!!!
And if you defend or condone the likes of the Holy Bandit Muhammed, then your true morality is questionable.
And your lack of religion would have you beheaded if you were a citizen of Sordid Wahabia.
If you were born earlier, you would have criticized Churchill for his "Nazi Hating".
I hate murderous miscreants. Islam is founded on the worship of such a miscreant.
(No religious belief is necessary to hold this view)
It is as simple as that.
No need to stuff words in my mouth. The reasoning is much better when I speak for myself.
I am a proud American, upset by all the intolerance and hate around me. You people are not part of the solution. You are part of the problem. You offer blanket hate for a religion that sounds all too familiar to the anti-semitism that culminated so horribly for the Jews.
Don't you tell me that all the billions of muslims are dangerous, or evil. I'm sure some of them are far more moral than wanton haters like many of the people here.
Much of America is so callous, so selfish, that we unleash CERTAIN suffering and death upon other nations, because we are afraid of POSSIBLE dangers, POSSIBLE weapons of mass destruction.
Now I can see why we could treat people so inhumanely. It's because you're so crazy, you don't even seem to recognize Muslims as human.
Well know this: I am the activist coming for your children. Not with guns, but with books, speeches, and the true message of Christ, Ghandi, and Martin Luther King Jr. You may not be physically sterile, but your cancerous ideas will not reproduce. I am going to fight you for what your children believe.
And win.
No you won't win... your cover is blown now in too many places. Too many people know that Islam means death. Your dream of world domination will not happen.
Again I'll bring your attention to mathandhumanity's weak arguements with his defence of Islam by boasting it has slaughtered less people than othe faiths,the guy is looking for a fight to draw out anger and force you to make a un-Godly retort so he can say "AHA..I was right you are a bigot and racist".
This is a cheap ruse us by simpletons that don't have the brains to defend themselves in a debate.
I remember the outrage by Muslims when a story in the media alleged US soldiers entered a Mosque that was storing weapons and tore a page from a Quran on display,meanwhile "FATBOY SADR" murdered about 200 people in a Mosque and now Fallujah
has it's "Holy City" image tarnished by the Mosques filled with weapons and "slaughterhouses"
in the name of Islam.
Muhammed created a retro-active religion that deems all people as Muslims under the authority of Allah and one Islamic website says that those that don't read the Quran to know Allah is the real God are enemies of Islam and to be killed
as infidels.
Muhammed had sex with a child and murdered God's children for Allah and also endorsed misogenistic dogma within Islam and the Quran.
I no fool and too often Muslims avoid the questions by screaming "Racism" and "Islamophobia" as a way to end any intelligent
dialogue,just watch how I'm attacked for having an opinion and how the truth won't be countered
with an valid claim of my misunderstanding Islam.
NO ISLAM - KNOW A FREE HOLLAND
Mathandhumanity:
Of course I believe that the OT is part of the Christian Bible, and much of the OT law defines the sins from which the blood of Christ cleanses us. Thus, if something in the OT grates on me, I'll question my own heart rather than the Word of God.
The OT also tells me I must love the LORD my God with my whole being, and my neigbor as myself. Jesus, after all, had no qualms about the Bible on which He was raised.
So, maybe, if the strictures against homosexuality and hating one's parents are invalid, the admonitions to love are invalid, too--and there's nothing wrong with people who use this blog to express bigotry and hatred?
Well, I don't see things quite that way. I mourn that we seem headed for a civilizational conflict. Israel, or a remnant thereof, had to be preserved to incubate the Messiah, and now that He has come, suffered for us, and conquered death on our behalf, our marching orders are to make disciples--not corpses.
As for creation vs. evolution, I'm sorry, but evolutionists in a hurry murdered more people between 1917-and 1991 for the wrong beliefs that suffered for the wrong kind of Christianity or none at all between the conversion of Constantine and Ruggles v. NY (1811). In America, the first use of evolutionary "science" was to prove the inferiority of non-Whites, especially black people (see John Haller's _Outcasts of Evolution_, and Haller is no fundie).
Re Leviticus on homosexuality, how many of you Lefties over the age of forty didn't use "fag" or "marracon" or, since I write from Sinitic Asia, "tongzhi" as one of the worst insults in your free speech book at one time? In your hearts of hearts, you still know that anyone who can enjoy giving or getting the moral equivalent of a colonoscopy is sick.
As for calling a child who curses father and mother worthy of death, the Hebrew yold covers everything from babes in arms to pre-marriage. If a teen curses his parents, who gave him life, what might he be willing to do to the rest of society? Perhaps one illness of the secular West is that it fails to distinguish teenaged rebellion from a healthy searching out of an independent individual path (i.e., the kid who wants to be an artist, rather than follow in Dad's footsteps), and tolerates a youth "culture" that is almost entirely self-destructive. I can't help but note that a Europe that idolized destructive, rebellious youth in the 19th century is now dying.
By the way, Mathandhumanity. I also believe a lot of America is incredibly selfish and arrogant, and needs to change.
As for Gandhi, he was up against the still heavily Christian Brits. How far do you think he would've gotten agains a Shah Jehan (the Moghul who built the Taj Mahal, by the way), Aurangzeb, or Babur Shah?
As for MLK, he was a great American. And he knew he could win by tweaking the fundamentalist consciences of his white Southern compatriots. Had we been good, scientific socialists in the 1960's, I assure you that Black America would be firmly "in its place". Countries like Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and today's Viet Nam know how to put uppity minorities in their place (see some of the threads on jihad in China). BTW, anyone know how many Afro-Cubans are in Castro's politiburo?
You lovers of humanity have done an awful lot of slaughtering people in order to "liberate" them--compelling them to be happy, a la Rousseau? Aintcha lucky there are still a few of us Christians around to blame for evil impulses that we confess and you follow.
And if you so praise Mahatma Gandhi, does that mean that when my wife is ill with malaria, and she'll have to take the colonialist's quinine, it is better to let her die? Or, should I believe that my highest calling is to keep all my bindu fluid in its little sack behind the pituitary gland (rather than down in the lower storeys), and test my discipline by sleeping with female disciples young enough to be my daughters?
Mu-ham-mad-thsandinsanity
You show your ignorance of the bloodthirsty and debauched founder of Islam that corrupts the 'true believers' that tolerate the madness of Islam.
You also show your ignorance of Gandhi.
You have answered none of the real arguments presented to you.
However, your pointless comments have not been in vain.
You have inspired several people here to write some very good viewpoints that help expose the satanic cult of the Miscreant Muhammed.
Thankyou.