Jihad recruiting in southwestern Africa. From AFP, with thanks to Twostellas:
"We have signs... that indicate that at least two internationally known terrorist groups are present in Angola," General Frenando Garcia Miala was quoted as saying.The two groups which are in Angola are not only trying to recruit members, they also "trying to gather funds for their overseas operations, and are hiding their members who are sought internationally."
"Recently, a religious sect tried to recruit new members to its ranks, preferring former soldiers who specialised in engineering," Miala said in an interview....
"We have also learned that some Angolans have been awarded scholarships by a so-called religious organisation but they were somewhere in Egypt in a centre where they were learning Muslim fundamentalist doctrine," said the general.
They fled, says the general, because suicide is contrary to Angolan culture.
"They fled, says the general, because suicide is contrary to Angolan culture."
Its against every sane culture. Which apparently does not include Islamic culture.
Read this
George H -
Topic Faith & Practice
Title The Bible, the Qur'an and Violence
Question I have read the answer to the question on violence provided by Professor Shahul Hameed, yet I am not convinced. The professor have said that no man may kill, but for a just cause. Whereas the Biblical commandment does not allow any exceptions. It says “thou shalt not kill”. So who will determine what is a just cause. I'm sure the terrorist from 9/11 can argue that their cause is just! Second, when he quotes the Bible, he also should look at its context. The only quote he presented from the New Testament was a quote from a story Jesus was telling about a nobleman who was talking to his servants. Those words "bring hither, and slay them before me" are the words of that nobleman in the story, not Jesus'!
Anyway your argument is that it is permissible to murder! And finally, how about this passage in the Qur'an which means:
*{This because those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the Truth from their Lord: Thus does Allah set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.}* (Muhammad 47:3)
*{Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.}* (Al-Anfal 8:12-13)
This is not just talking about enemies, but those who don't believe what the Muslims believe. I am not taking this out of context. I also think it's important to look at the fact that you can clearly see from the Bible, if there are any metaphoric examples, Jesus clearly does not want violence. You can see that HE was not involved in war, HE did not say that you can kill, period… for any reason!! Even if you see that your cause is just! To conclude, I don't mean to sound offensive. On the contrary, I feel passionate about this lone issue because I love and appreciate the value of Islam, but am finding it very difficult to get by this particular issue.
I have not found an answer or justification to allow me to accept this and thus the Islamic faith. My aim is to be blunt and to receive a blunt and simple answer for why there are so many violent passages in the Qur'an. Passages that are not speaking metaphorically as the Bible sometimes does, but instead calling its followers to fight, even if they don't want to.
Date 2004/11/4
Name of Consultant Shahul Hameed
Content of Reply
Salam George.
Peace be with you!
Thank you for your question.
You have claimed that the Biblical references to killing are sometimes metaphorical; but the Qur'anic commands are literal. This is a moot point; and for the time being I would dispute your contention by citing examples from the Old Testament where killing on a large scale has been done with the help and guidance of Jehovah or Yahweh.
Read the Book of Joshua, Chapters 8 to 11. About four chapters speak of nothing but killing, killing, killing and again killing, as commanded by Yahweh. I quote just the last part of Joshua Chapter 10:
30: and the LORD gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left none remaining in it; and he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.
31: And Joshua passed on from Libnah, and all Israel with him, to Lachish, and laid siege to it, and assaulted it:
32: and the LORD gave Lachish into the hand of Israel, and he took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it, as he had done to Libnah.
33: Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua smote him and his people, until he left none remaining.
34: And Joshua passed on with all Israel from Lachish to Eglon; and they laid siege to it, and assaulted it;
35: and they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword; and every person in it he utterly destroyed that day, as he had done to Lachish.
36: Then Joshua went up with all Israel from Eglon to Hebron; and they assaulted it,
37: and took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and its king and its towns, and every person in it; he left none remaining, as he had done to Eglon, and utterly destroyed it with every person in it.
38: Then Joshua, with all Israel, turned back to Debir and assaulted it,
39: and he took it with its king and all its towns; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed every person in it; he left none remaining; as he had done to Hebron and to Libnah and its king, so he did to Debir and to its king.
40: So Joshua defeated the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.
I understand that 'he left none remaining' means, Joshua killed the men, the women and the kids—even babies. At the command of Yahweh.
And we read this in the Book of Isaiah:
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)
Here we see how the Bible tells of God's commands to fight and kill.
In the New Testament, Jesus Christ is quoted as saying that he had come to bring the sword, to "set father against son and mother against daughter" (Luke 12:53) and called on his followers to kill: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me" (Luke 19:27).
you can see that the parable comes to an end with the previous verse, namely Luke 19:26: "For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him."
It was after this we find these verses: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
It is clear that he did not want his disciples to put this into effect immediately. And certainly the mission of Jesus in those days did not include fighting, nor was he prepared for it. But it would be naive to say that Jesus did not know the role of wars in the history of humanity. He certainly knew the Law of Moses and the significance of fighting in Jewish history. Didn't he know that the Law of Moses taught the philosophy of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? And yet what did he say of the Law?
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled..." (Matthew 5: 17, 18).
And from the manner in which he drove out the money changers in the Jerusalem Temple (John 2: 13-15), it is clear that he did not completely rule out the use of force, in establishing peace on earth.
The question is how did the Christians interpret the words of Jesus in their practical life? Most assuredly the import of the parable (quoted above) was not lost upon the Christians of the later centuries. If we examine the history of Christianity, we see the above words of Jesus have been enacted in bloody reality many times - starting when an important political rebellion against the Roman Catholic Church took on a religious slant - leading to the split in European Christendom between Catholic and Protestant. This split sparked off a series of religious wars which were ultimately to be responsible for the death of nearly a third of the entire White race.
If we argue that the essential message of Jesus is "turning the other cheek" even in the face of the worst provocation, then we have to admit that Jesus' avowed followers have belied his teaching repeatedly. Even when their tongues call Jesus "the Prince of Peace", weapons of mass destruction are being forged in their backyards to massacre the non-Christians. Every time a Christian bomb tears apart the limbs of an Iraqi man, woman or child in Baghdad or Fallujah, Christ's teaching is proved to be null and void. It is funny to hear the Christians blaming Muslims for taking up weapons while they themselves had exploded two Christian atom bombs that killed millions; and theirs is the monopoly of manufacturing, distributing and using the most horrible weapons ever made by the hand of man - the followers of the Prince of Peace indeed!
The Qur'an is a continuation and completion of the earlier scriptures like the Torah and the Gospel; and the mission of Muhammad was a reconciliation between the harsh Law of Moses and the non-violent Gospel of Jesus. Consider this Muslim idea in the light of Islam's acceptance of Moses and Jesus as prophets of God and their books as God-given scriptures. Muhammad never claimed that he was preaching a new religion: he said that his mission can be compared to a brick; the last brick needed to complete the construction of a building. All the prophets—indeed thousands of them—had preached the Religion of God before, and every prophet had a mission to fulfill. And when the time was ripe the Last Prophet came and completed the Religion of God.
The Qur'an has said what means:
*{So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates…}* (Muhammad 47:4)
The context of this verse was when the Muslims were to fight their enemies for their very existence. After thirteen years of endurance and patience, the prophet and his companions had to leave their home town of Makkah and to emigrate to Madinah. When the people of Madinah had welcomed him there and he was accepted as a leader there, the Makkans became unhappy. They wanted to eliminate Muhammad and his religion; and so they sent their army to root out Islam. And the crucial battle took place in Badr. It was just before this that Muhammad received the revelation from God to fight:
*{And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:190)
This meant that the Prophet and his companions were not to start the fighting; but to defend themselves against aggressors. That was how fighting was ordained; but we must know that once we fight, we fight to defeat the aggressors, so that we can live without fear of molestation and invasion; so that we can live in peace; so that justice is done. Remember God does not command any one to start fighting; rather He permits people to fight in self defense or for the defense of those who are attacked unjustly.
All the passages in the Qur'an referring to fighting have been revealed in the context of the threats of battles from the enemies of Truth and Justice. And when you are told to fight, you are commanded to fight on till justice is established; till the criminals are brought to book, till Peace can prevail.
When DU bombs are dropped from a height of 30,000 ft, how can you turn the other cheek? By their invasions and occupations the people whom the Muslims see as representing the Christians have been proving Jesus' message of Peace irrelevant and meaningless in the world of reality. And then they quote Jesus and ask Muslims not to resist them while they go on brutally maiming and massacring people and demolishing their mosques!
What, pray tell did the people in the World Trade Center do to those who murdered them? If the koran says that you can't start the war but fight in self-defense, what did those 3000 people do to start this war? What did the little children in Beslan do to the mighty jihadis to deserve to be killed on their first day at school? There is no way to justify what your religion calls jihad. Of course, I forget that we are only "dirty kaffirs" isn't that the way you feel about us?
u r all retards:
I know you are but what am I?
Carolyn2:
Bad girl! Do not respond to trolls, no matter how tempting! (Finger shaking here)
3812Michelle, LOL- you are right! I just lose my temper when these trolls get superior.
There's an asylum somewhere that's missing an inmate - I hope "u r all retards" dressed for the weather.
The problem that u r all retards, and all other Muslims that think like him, have is that they start their arguments with a false premise (fallacies from the Koran or Hadith) and then proceed more or less logically to an equally false conclusion. This is something that all first year students of logic are taught to avoid.
The problem that u r all retards, and all other Muslims that think like him, have is that they start their arguments with a false premise (fallacies from the Koran or Hadith) and then proceed more or less logically to an equally false conclusion. This is something that all first year students of logic are taught to avoid.
It is a common false charge that the US is using weapons of mass destruction by raining "DU" bombs on Iraq. Where to begin?
First, DU=depleted uranium. Depleted of what? All isotopes other than U238, the one with the longest half-life. Why? So as to reduce the radioactivity.
(You could argue that the real reason is that such uranium is waste byproduct from the nuclear energy fuel cycle. What's left after enriched uranium is extracted from mined uranium, is depleted uranium. That's another good reason for using it. It's cheaper.)
With a half-life of several billion years, U238 is the next best thing to non-radioactive. Your average granite countertop is probably more radioactive. And an hour in the Iraqi sun will give you a far greater REM dose.
Second, DU is not used for bombs. When used at all, it's used for certain types of armor-piercing shells that tanks or Bradleys can fire at enemy armored combat vehicles. Current combat conditions don't involve armor-vs-armor fighting. So DU munitions aren't in use to any meaningful extent.
When they were used, they were used in tank-vs-tank fights and so on, and those sorts of fights didn't happen in the middle of town.
Finally, DU munitions don't cause cancer epidemics or the like. Since they're used in training, we'd know if they were. Since DU is what it is, there is no possibility of such a thing anyhow, but our experience in training confirms what should be obvious.
Well I am sure that this black people don´t know nothing about the beautiful action of muslims arabics aginst this black brothers in darfur, what bad is ignorance, greetings
It looks like RS has to fire up his map-making skills so as to color in a few more spots. Soon there will be none left and we should start looking for jihadists under every rock, for jihad is a dangerous meme that fires the imagination.
Reasonable people are sitting home, as we are, exchanging ideas, while the now-infected jihadists are clearning their weapons, strapping on their bombs, and their acoutrements of war and martyrdom, and mentally preparing themselves to go out and vanquish us, the enemy, while all we do is talk.....does that sound right?
If we let the other guy do your fighting for us, the jihadists will come to find us comfortably seated in front of the tv or the keyboard, waiting...
ur
I find it interesting that you argue Islam's moderation by claiming that Christians and Jews are just as bad as Moslems by citing their texts. I commend you for fessing up to how harsh the Koran seems. I think your analysis of how it moderates Christianity and Judaism shows your profound ignorance of both. Christians and Jews do not intepret their scriptures the way Moslems interpret the Koran. I put your issue to a Jewish rabbi and found his analysis of provisions you cite were moot in about the year 200 a.d. (400 years before Mo). The Rabbi stated:
"IV. EVEN THE BIBLE AND THE RABBIS HAD A PROBLEM
We often think that being a religious leader means that you believe everything in the Bible and follow all the rules. Well, sometimes those who love Torah a great deal are troubled by the text. If you were unhappy with the command to kill every Amalekite or to wipe out the Canaanite women and children, you are in good company. The Bible itself tells us that the policy of genocide was never implemented. In Chronicles II 8:7-8, a history of the Jewish people in biblical times, it is clearly stated that there were Canaanites left who worked for King Solomon and were still pagans. They were clearly living among the Israelites.
In the Talmud, the rabbis declare that the seven condemned pagan nations have been scattered by repeated conquest and can no longer be identified (B. Yoma 54a). By the time we reach the famous legal work called the Mishnah Torah, Maimonides states that the original inhabitants of Canaan (the nations Israel is commanded to destroy) no longer exist. Furthermore, the Milhemet Mitzvah against the seven Canaanite cannot be applied to any other nation or people, even if they inhabit Eretz Israel (Hilkhot Melakhim 5:4).
The second category of mandatory wars, that of the war to the death against the Amalekites was rendered harmless by claiming they no longer exist or that God will fight them directly in messianic times (B. Yoma 54a.).
In other words, our tradition did not deny the authenticity of the original command to destroy the seven Canaanite tribes that occupied Eretz Israel as well as the Amalekites, but made two claims: first, that these nations cannot be found and, therefore, no longer exist and second, that the Rabbis denied the right of Jews to use those commands to ever attack any other people."
Just imagine how much would be left of the 23 Moslem countries surrounding Israel, if the Jews believed this was the command of God.
We know a Moslem would be subject to murder for blasphemy if he stated he had any problem with a single word of the Messenger's text.
I am suprised the Jews did not revisit this Rabbinic opinion after massacre of the Jews of Medina, attack and enslavement of the Jews of Khayber, rape of women and children, sale of these victims after rape, trickery, treachery and bribery employed to their fullest extent to grow the numbers of his religion Islam which ironically was supposed to mean 'Peace'
I just saw that video and am mortified, not that I should be surprised anyway.
So how long before matters coem tom a head? How long before the streets rage with riots?
The cab driver voices true and angry sentiments. Unfortunately for western europe, fighting is done by youngsters and there aren't too many young people with guts left in western europe, i dare say. Eastern europe is hope, in that sense.
The same old problem of the pan calling the kettle ‘blacker than me’. From the neither-Christian-nor-Muslim standpoint I´d like to represent, all we have to discuss before admitting or rejecting a new member to the club of Civilization is whether he, she or 'it' abides by the old-age principle: “Do not do unto others…”
Once this has been accepted, it is obvious who passes the test and who doesn’t. The rest is ‘byzantine chatter’, like discussing the gender of angels.