"We are of Muslim culture, we oppose misogyny, homophobia, anti-Semitism and the political use of Islam. We reassert a living secularism"

Something, but not too much, should be made of this group or groupuscule (it may be a handful of people)who, it is clear from their "Manifesto,", have more or less abandoned Islam as a belief-system but cannot quite bring themselves, in the manner of Ali Sina or Ibn Warraq, to say so. Instead they identify themselves as people of "Muslim culture" rather than forthrightly as ex-Muslims -- as if "Muslim culture" meant something (but Muslim apologists never tire of telling us that "Islam is not monolithic" -- meaning of course that there are differences in dress, food, customs, the aggressiveness or fervor with which various parts of the Sharia are enforced -- so if Islam itself no longer directs their thoughts, the phrase "Muslim culture" must surely mean only those who, like us, have been born into Islam and experienced it in some way, so cannot be fooled either by apologists or those in denial. But there is no other monolithic "Muslim culture" which we share -- just that experience of having been born, through no fault of our own, into Islam, and having arrived at a clear-sighted dismay with those features of this belief-system that cause such aggressive and violent behavior. Nonetheless, for all sorts of reasons -- filial piety and fear come to mind -- we choose not to call ourselves ex-Muslims and may even allow ourselves to believe, despite all the evidence of what that belief-system is all about, to identify ourselves, in a wan and etiolated fashion, as being of "Muslim culture." The "Manifesto" describes the position of Muslims thus"

"Two possibilities lie before them [i.e. the Muslims of France]. They can rediscover the strength of a real, living secularism, that is, political action on behalf of their rights and to demand the social gains fought for by their fathers and mothers-who belonged to social classes, cultures, peoples and nations before they belonged to Islam. Or they can see themselves in an imaginary, virtual "umma" [Islamic community -- ed.] that no longer corresponds to reality, and then masquerade in republican or tiers-mondistes (Third-Worldist) rags. This only ends up securing unequal, repressive, and intolerant societies. This latter path cannot be ours."

The possiblity that the indigenous Infidels cannot with complete assurance rely on those who refuse to abandon Islam altogether, because of the ever-persistent problem of those "moderates" who might, out of some personal difficulty, suddenly re-discover Islam, and be fired into action by their newly-kindled fervor -- appears not to have occured to them.

And surely the most important line in their Manifesto is this: "their fathers and mothers-who belonged to social classes, cultures, peoples and nations before they belonged to Islam." It is that appeal to an awareness of some other, pre-Islamic or non-Islamic identity, that needs to be encouraged. It is likely to be encouraged most among those who are non-Arab Muslims, and who can be led to see Islam as what it has always been, a vehicle for Arab imperialism, as Anwar Shaikh, Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, and V. S. Naipual have all made so clear. Then, too, aside from appealing to that fact (what is a "Pakistani" Muslim but a descendant, not of the Prophet -- all those "Sayeeds" running around Karachi -- but rather, the descendant of Hindus killed, or forced by conditions, to convert to Islam -- some understanding of this, and the encouragement of sympathetic loyalty to those generations of Hindu ancestors who suffered from Islam, and at some point, eventually succumbed to the intolerable pressure of being dhimmis (or in the subcontinent, "zimmis"), and "reverted" to the religion of their masters.

Mr.Spencer
This is very positive to see.
Do you have any idea of how many people are involved in this group. And I wonder if you know of any other such groups throughout Europe, particularly in the UK.

I would like to take a look at their site and see what they have to say.

Of course when I see anything like this, my instincts set alarm bells a-ringing in my mind, accompanied by the word taqiyya. But it's too easy to just denounce every positive thing that comes from a muslims as taqiyya. This kind of thing at least deserves a chance.

do you think they put this part about mo ham od in the cartoon??

TORTURE:

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”

Bukhari:V4B54N487 “The Prophet said, ‘The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.’ So someone said, ‘Allah’s Apostle, wouldn’t this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture the unbelievers?’”

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “Ali burnt some [former Muslims alive] and this news reached Ibn Abbas, who said, ‘Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, “Don’t punish with Allah’s Punishment.” No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, “If a Muslim discards his Islamic religion, kill him.”’”

Qur’an 48:27 “If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture.”

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”

Qur’an 5:37 “The [Christian] disbelievers will long to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out there from; and theirs will be an enduring torture.”

Tabari IX:6 “The chief sheep tender sent out spies to obtain intelligence. But they came back with their joints dislocated. When he asked what had happened, they said, ‘We saw white men on black horses. Before we could resist, we were struck as you see us now.”
Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.””

Ishaq:312 “Umar said to the Apostle, ‘Let me pull out Suhayl’s two front teeth. That way his tongue will stick out and he will never be able to speak against you again.’”

Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Tabari VII:133/Ishaq:387 “When Muhammad saw Hamzah he said, ‘If Allah gives me victory over the Quraysh at any time, I shall mutilate thirty of their men!’ When the Muslims saw the rage of the Prophet they said, ‘By Allah, if we are victorious over them, we shall mutilate them in a way which no Arab has ever mutilated anybody.”

Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.

THE POOR POLISH WOMAN GUESS THEY DIDN'T HAVE A CAMEL TO FOLLOW THIS ONE EXACTALLY???

DON'T BE FOOLED!!

WAS READING CROSS AND HER PITTY ATTACKS ON MUSSIS AND DIDN'T SEE ANY WHO GOT THEIR HEADS CUT OFF OR HAVE THEIRSEVELS DISIMBOULED WE REDNECKS CALL THAT GUTTING!!

YEA CUTTING HEADS OFF THINK THEY SHOWED THAT IN THEIR CARTOON??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes of their Threat Amen

If they produced a cartoon showing the facts about Mohammeds life it would fall foul of laws against racial hatred and incitement to kill (the slaughter of the Jewish tribes) and probably fall foul of pederasty laws too (Mohammeds marriage to 6 year old Aisha)

Mr Hugh says he wants "some understanding of this, and the encouragement of sympathetic loyalty to those generations of Hindu ancestors who suffered from Islam, and at some point, eventually succumbed to the intolerable pressure".

I concede that there are many "Ammas" (and subsequent family trees)who came to being in this manner.

Imperialists when drunk with power do lots of nasty things....the British, French, Japanese, American, to name but a few did many nasty things too.

And I could be one of these "Sayeeds" that you talk about. I have researched a lot of material and read a lot of things and you know what ..I like being an Islami.

Occasionally I like wearing the Jilbab and Hijab....does this make me filthy or cheap or a even suicuide bomber...ofcourse NOT. Do I get beaten or am I a child bearing machine to promote the Umma recrits...I certainly hope not.

Things like Fasting for a month is hard but actually quite an accomplishment and spiritually enlightening. I would encourage the US people to try it...fantastic way to beat obesity. (I read that there is enough the excess American fat to fill the grand canyon, and boy that takes some doing).

Do I agree with the sentiments of this group. Absolutely...I want to see Islam move along this path.

My point is that let's not (conveniently) forget that actually *some people like Islam*...a lot convert because they see a justice & equality not found else where.

As examples consider the "cat". He used to sing Christian Hymns and make a lot of money from it.

Or your very own boxing champions "Cassius Clay" and Tyson....were they put through the "mill" before converting, don't you think they know the truth about Muhammed (Pbuh) and Allah (swt)....ask yourselves "were they forced or are they illeterate".....

Regarding "Cassius Clay" and Mike Tyson's conversions, they found a belief system that not only allows hatred- it encourages hatred. These men are consumed by their hatred of the "man".

Oh yes, Eid is over and Ad Nauseum is back.

Aside from your credulous suggestion that the Islamic world isn't troubled by obesity because of Ramadan...

American black nationalists with any shred of humanity who converted to Islam via Louis Farrakan's (very racist and anti-Semetic) Nation of Islam movement must really be wondering what they bought into when they converted. The BS they were indoctrinated with was that Islam, unlike Christianity, was not racist, and was very friendly to black Africans.

Of course none of them connected the dots between the slave trade and the Arab merchants who supplied the human merchandise.

Canadian Black Muslims, who are immigrants from Ethiopia, Somalia, etc., are desparately trying to rally support for the Darfurians being raped, tortured and massacred by the Janjawids. Notably absent from the rally held in Toronto a week ago Sunday was representation from most mainstream Muslim organizations (only one took part), and of course none of the anti-war organizations. However, there were representatives from virtually all other faith groups -- Christian, Hindu, Jewish and Zoroastrian.

As for Yusuf Islam... ...what do you want us to consider about the notorious bagman and apologist for Hamas, who was captured on video describing Judaism as a "so-called religion" etc.? A burnt-out pop star, distraught at the lack of attention he's receiving, converts to an exotic faith. And please, don't tell me about his recent Man of Peace award. Arafat got one for his participation at Oslo and never did anything after that in the furtherance of peace, including the fundamental step of removing the paragraph from the PLO Charter that calls for the total destruction of Israel. Instead, he used aid money he siphoned off to enrich his friends and supply salaries and weapons for terrorists.

As for Hugh's lament that this group haven't gone the distance that Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina have... ...who is to say they won't, ultimately. It starts somewhere, and, perhaps, this is where Warraq and Sina started.

Adding my 2 cents to the above comments: Perhaps a positive step, but the Manifesto DOES NOT repudiate the odious tenets that backup all those social problems that are mentioned.

How far are they willing to go to merge with and be absorbed into French culture? Only time will show the truth of their Manifesto.

The phenomenon of black Americans converting to Islam really started in the 1930's owing to a man called Wallace Fahd whose origins are unclear though he was thought to be half British, half Polynesian.

This individual on his release from prison in California where he had served time for fraud struck on the idea of starting and profiting from another, that of conning black people, who were eager to get in touch with their lost roots, that their ancestors were Muslims and whose lands had been powerful and prosperous before the Europeans set foot in Africa.

For people suffering both from the Great Depression and racism, this nonsense had a great appeal and many were prepared to believe it as a means of boosting their self-esteem and sense of identity.

After Wallace Fahd mysteriously disappeared (quite possibly murdered by the FB1) the torch was taken up by a black man who was born Elijah Poole but changed his name to Elijah Mohammed.

Poole wishing to make the con even more appealing and so fleece the black people with the money that he raised from them invented some more appealing absurdities which were swallowed up.

He argued that the white man had been the result of genetic engineering carried out on the island of Patmos 6,000 years by a mad scientist called Yakub who had been expelled from Mecca.

Elijah Mohammed further claimed that this race of white devils who were bred to be incurably evil were to be given power over the world for 6,000 years after which it would be restored to the rightful heir, the black man.

For a long time converts to Islam such as Mohammed Ali and Malcolm X believed this propaganda perpetrated from what would be known as the Nation of Islam.

As as aside, I have sometimes wondered how Malcolm X, who was 3 eighths white, made sense of this.

Malcolm X had a massive shock when he went on his hajj to Mecca and saw black people being sold in the market place as slaves.

This made him drop the Nation of Islam and migrate to being a mainstream Muslim.

However, to his great discredit, Malcolm X never spoke out against the evil slave trade that he had witnessed. It takes a lot of guts to admit that you made a mistake, and Malcolm X (ne Little) wasn't up to it.

Things like Fasting for a month is hard but actually quite an accomplishment and spiritually enlightening.

Posted by: Naseem at November 16, 2004 11:02 AM

You 'al don't Fast for a Mo. cause you eat at night that aint Fasting!!

You STUPID WOMAN??

FASTING MEANS NO EAT-ING OR DRINK-ING!!

I DON'T HEAR NOTHING FROM YOU ABOUT THE GUT-TIN OF THE POOR BLOND WOMAN OR THAT YOUR FRIENDS CUTT OFF HER ARMS AND LEGGS??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Destory ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

This is a bold step in the right direction. Undoubtedly there is much pain & suffering in the stories of these individuals. I'd like to here more about the de-conversion stories of the atheist Muslims in particular.

Breaking on Yahoo...no confirmation from other sources yet...Margaret Hassan death tape shown..

The Islamic idea of a fast is just a cheap knock-off of the what is known as the "prophet's fast". A true prophet's fast is nothing but water for month. I have read of people accomplishing this and although it does show a great deal of disipline it doesn't show a great deal of smarts. The damage to the body and brain is tremendous. Having visions and seeing voices are no surprise. However, the Islamic fast is nothing more than a "show" and and excuse to binge at night. So called spiritual activities that are only for public displays of pieity are hollow, foolish, and dangereous. The morons.

f.g.

We fought against them there.

Somehow, I find it hard to believe that these guys fought against homophobia, anti-semitism, and misogyny in their native Islamic countries.

If they had, they wouldn't be alive now.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 16, 2004 11:15 AM

&
Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 16, 2004 11:25 AM

NOTICE nasseems EXAMPLES ALL MEN WITH BRAIN PROBLES CAT BOY[didn't sing Chirstian songs] fried brain to much acid and the fighters to many punches to the head look at tyson convicted rapist ??

NOT GOOD EXAMPLES TO FOLLOW!!

JUST ON A COUPLE OF PLANES AND THE FAT WERE MUSSIS

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

Naseem, open your heart, and Jesus will come to you. Christian fasts as well (for one or two days, only water or juice), but we are taught to do it privately, so it is just between us and the creator. Then we are not tempted to be boastful of our good acts. God bless.

This is for Naseem, who found fasting in Ramadan is "quite an accomplishment and spiritually enlightening..."

" A 14 year old boy died on Thursday, November 11th, after having received 85 lashes; according to the ruling of the Mullah judge of the public circuit court in the town of Sanandadj he was guilty of breaking his fast during the month of Ramadan."

Ms. Catherine,

I am not surprised by your comments, you are somewhat blinded by your hate for all things Islam.

Have you ever tried fasting...do you have any idea how difficult it is in the heat possibly wearing a Jilbab ir Hijab...and to do it everyday. You talk about binging at night...but there is only so much you can eat.

F.g says "The Islamic idea of a fast is just a cheap knock-off of the what is known as the "prophet's fast".

You know not what you say....my advice TRY IT FOR A MONTH and then speak from personal experience...anyone like Catholic Catherine can simply mouth off.

Catherine ..those people who left the Torso are no friends of mine- period. You may not believe it but muslims too are disgusted by this barbaric behaviour...And my condolences to Margeret's Hassan's family....she was a good woman ...following the prophet's example of being a servant for the people....Allah (swt) give peace to he soul.

Mr. WF, thank you for loving comment. I do look at what the Bible says sometimes. Isa Massi (PBUH) too was a prophet of Islam.

Mr. Buddha...I have nothing but contempt for authorites regading the boy dying. What those barbaric morons never learn is that you don't build a connection to your god by whips...it cannot be forced.

I know that in parts of Pakistan there are people on the lookout for "eaters" and you do have to be careful.

Naseem,

I am curious about something. Why is it that when a muslim says the prophet's name, there is always the qualifier, "Peace Be Unto Him", attached?

If Muhammad was indeed Allah's prophet wouldn't he already have peace upon him?

Could it be that the common muslim knows that Muhammad was not a peaceful man when living on this planet and that the qualifying addendum is required to ensure Allah's mercy upon him?

Please explain.

Naseem:

What is the real point of wearing a hijab in the heat or observing the Ramadan fast? Does it really make you any better or more humane a human being than if you didn't, or is it just a sign of devotion, as are similar practices are in any other religion?

One of the most offensive sights I have seen was a young Mullah walking the streets of Toronto on a very hot summer day, over 35 degrees C, himself reasonably sensibly clad in white with a skullcap and a vest over his white shirt, his young son dressed in Western clothing (shorts and a T-shirt), but his adolescent daughter dressed from head to foot in black, with only a slit for her eyes. This isn't about modesty and respect for one's God. This is about myscogeny.

And the Ramadan regime of fasting and praying by day and other constraints on behaviour vs what may be partaken in after sunset for an entire lunar month reminds me of nothing more than sensory deprevation practices used to induct people into cults.

anyone like Catholic Catherine can simply mouth off.
Catherine ..those people who left the Torso are no friends of mine- period. You may not believe it but muslims too are disgusted by this barbaric behaviour...And my condolences to Margeret's Hassan's family....she was a good woman ...following the prophet's example of being a servant for the people....Allah (swt) give peace to he soul.

Posted by: Naseem at November 16, 2004 04:02 PM

AGAIN WRONG ON BOTH COUNTS WHEN I FAST I DON'T EAT OR DRINK ANYTHING AND ONLY DO SO FOR 24 HRS DO IT EVERY YEAR!!!

AND THE TORSO AS YOU PUT IT WAS A WOMAN WHO MULSUMS KILLED AND RAPED LIKE WHAT YOUR BOOKS SAY TO DO!!

WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE THESE MONSTERS KILL???
SHAME ON THE HUMAN RIGHTS LIKE WHERE WERE THEy ON THE 300,000 GRAVES OF saddam[yellow coward found in a hole don't shoot i'm a coward]THESE PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK BUNCH OF LIB'S!!!
WAKE UP PEOPLE THIS IS WHAT THEY TEACH THEIR CHILDREN!!!

The truth about what Mulsums believe??
Read and learn about the peace they bring to your door??

Tabari VII:148 “Amr said, ‘Let’s wait here until the cry has died down. They are sure to hunt for us tonight and tomorrow. I was still in the cave when Uthman bin Malik came riding proudly on his horse. He reached the entrance to our cave and I said to my Ansar companion, ‘If he sees us, he will tell everyone in Mecca.’ So I went out and stabbed him with my dagger. He gave a shout and the Meccans came to him while I went back to my hiding place. Finding him at the point of death, they said, ‘By Allah we knew that Amr came for no good purpose.’ The death of their companion impeded their search for us, for they carried him away.”

Tabari VII:149 “I went into a cave with my bow and arrows. While I was in it, a one-eyed man from the Banu Bakr came in driving some sheep. He said, ‘Who’s there?’ I said [lied], ‘I’m a Banu Bakr.’ ‘So am I.’ Then he laid down next to me, and raised his voice in song: ‘I will not believe in the faith of the Muslims.’ I said, ‘You will soon see!’ Before long the Bedouin went to sleep and started snoring. So I killed him in the most dreadful way that anybody has ever killed. I leant over him, struck the end of my bow into his good eye, and thrust it down until it came out the back of his neck. After that I rushed out like a wild beast and took flight. I came to the village of Naqi and recognized two Meccan spies. I called for them to surrender. They said no so I shot and arrow and killed one, and then I tied the other up and took him to Muhammad

Ishaq:434 “Amr and an Ansari waited until they were asleep. Then Amr killed them, thinking that he had taken vengeance for the Muslims who had been slain. When he came to the Messenger, he told him what had happened. The Prophet said, ‘You have killed men for whom I shall have to pay blood-money.’”

THE BLOOD MONEY IS TO CRY NOW ABOUT THE SUICIDE BOMOBERS WELL THEY ARE THE MONSTERS DO NOT CRY FOR THE KILLER CRY FOR THE VICTIM DID WE CRY FOR HITLER??

TORTURE:

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

READ IT AND WEEP FOR THOSE WHO THESE MONSTERS HAVE KILLED BY THEIR BOOK PEAR,BERG,JOHNSTON,HENSLEY,BISLEY,HEAGAN,AND THE LIST GOES ON MANY IRAQIS MEN FROM NEPAL FROM THE PHILLIPENS AND JAPAN AND HOW MANY IN OUR LANDS??

Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”

AGAIN THIS IS WHAT THEY TEACH THEIR CHILDREN AROUND THE WORLD!!

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “Ali burnt some [former Muslims alive] and this news reached Ibn Abbas, who said, ‘Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, “Don’t punish with Allah’s Punishment.” No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, “If a Muslim discards his Islamic religion, kill him.”’

YES THEY WILL NOT LET THEM BE FREE??

Qur’an 48:27 “If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture.”

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

THIS MEANS WE CAN GIVE NO QUATER??

Qur’an 5:37 “The [Christian] disbelievers will long to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out there from; and theirs will be an enduring torture.”

EXPLAINS ITS SELF

Tabari IX:6 “The chief sheep tender sent out spies to obtain intelligence. But they came back with their joints dislocated. When he asked what had happened, they said, ‘We saw white men on black horses. Before we could resist, we were struck as you see us now.”

THIS IS CAIR AND THE HUMAN RIGHTS THAT HAS BEEN SWADED BY THE MONEY OF TERRORIST??

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

SO TO THEM THE BOMBERS ARE DOING THIS
THIEVERY & SLAVERY:

Qur’an 8:1 “They ask you about the benefits of capturing the spoils of war. Tell them: ‘The benefits belong to Allah and to His Messenger.’”

Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

SO THEIR BOOK SAYS ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO SLAUTER THE PEOPLE WHO WANT THEIR LAND

Tabari VII:64/Ishaq:307 “The Messenger of Allah gave orders concerning the contents of the camp which the people had collected, and it was all brought together. Among the Muslims, however, there was a difference of opinion concerning it. Those who had collected it said, ‘It is ours. Muhammad promised every man that he could keep the booty he took.’ Those who were fighting said, ‘If it had not been for us, you would not have taken it. We distracted the enemy from you so that you could take what you took.’ Those who were guarding the Prophet for fear the enemy would attack him said, ‘By Allah, you have no better right to it than we have. We wanted to kill the enemy when Allah gave us the opportunity and made them turn their backs, and we wanted to take property when there was no one to protect it; but we were afraid that the Meccans might attack the Prophet. We protected him so you have no better right to it than we have.’ When we quarreled about the booty we became very bad tempered. So Allah removed it from us and handed it over to His Messenger.”

SO HE WAS JUST GREEDY

Ishaq:307 “The ‘Spoils of War’ Surah came down from Allah to His Prophet concerning the distribution of the booty when the Muslims showed their evil nature. Allah took it out of their hands and gave it to the Apostle.”

SO MO-HAM-OD THOUGHT MULSUMS NOT AS TRUE FOLLOWERS??

Bukhari:V5B59N541 “When we conquered, we gained neither gold nor silver as booty, but we gained cows, camels, goods and gardens.”

Tabari VIII:12 “When cities were conquered Muslims used to say, ‘Conquer for yourselves whatever seems good to you because all treasures were given to Muhammad.’”

Qur’an 48:19 “He rewarded them with abundant spoils that they will capture. Allah has promised you much booty that you shall take, and He has made this easy for you.”

THIS IS WHY THEY GO TO FIGHT THE IRAQI PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY WANT THER LANDS!!
PEACE, ISLAM STYLE:

Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”

WHO DO YOU TRUST??

Tabari VII:86 “Gabriel brought down the following verse to the Messenger: ‘If you apprehend treachery from any people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations).’ When Gabriel had finished delivering this verse, the Prophet said, ‘I fear the Banu Qaynuqa.’ It was on the basis of this verse that Muhammad advanced upon them.”

THE ARAB LEAGE,ubl,THE ZQUARI,AND ALL WHO TEACH THIS HATE AROUND THE WORLD

Tabari VII:158 “Judayy went to Abd Allah Ibn Ubayy to ask for support. He said, ‘I found him sitting among a number of his companions while the Prophet’s crier was calling men to arms. He said, ‘This is a clever trick of Muhammad’s.’ The Messenger of Allah besieged the Nadir Jews for fifteen days. In the end they made peace with him on the condition that the Prophet would not kill them and that their property and their coats of mail would be his.”

Tabari VII:159 “The Messenger of Allah besieged the Nadir for fifteen days until he had reduced them to a state of utter exhaustion, so that they would give him what he wanted. The terms in which the Prophet made peace with the Jews were: he would not shed their blood, he would expel them from their lands and settlements, providing for every three of them a camel and a water-skin.”

Tabari VII:159 “The Prophet fought them until he made peace with them on condition that they evacuated Yathrib. He expelled them to Syria but allowed them to keep what their camels could carry, except for their coats of mail and weapons.”

THIS COULD BE HOPE BUT??

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.”

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

THIS IS WHAT THE MONSTERS ARE TEACHING THEIR CHILDREN

Qur’an 9:3 “And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the Pilgrimage is that Allah and His Messenger dissolve treaty obligations with the Pagans.”

WHO ARE THE PAGANS??

Qur’an 49:9 “If two parties among the Believers fall into fighting, make peace: but if one becomes aggressive, then fight against the one that transgresses until it complies.”

WHEN THEY SEE OTHERS JOIN AGAINST THEM LIE LOW ? THIS TIME THE FIGHT WILL BE FINISHED!!

Qur’an 9:7 “How can there be a covenant between Allah and His Messenger and the disbelievers with whom you made a treaty near the sacred Mosque?”

Qur’an 9:8 “How (can there be such a treaty), seeing that they get an advantage, the upper hand over you? They do not pay you respect, or honor you or the ties of kinship or covenant. With (good words from) their mouths they entice you [out negotiate you], but their hearts are averse to you.”

AGAIN WHAT THEY TEACH THEIR CHILDREN!

Qur’an 9:12 “If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness.”

AGAIN WHO ARE THE DISBELIEVERS??

Ishaq:544 “Muhammad commanded the people to prepare for the foray [raid, incursion, sortie, attack, or assault]. The Messenger informed his troops that he was going to Mecca. He ordered them to prepare themselves and ready their equipment quickly. He said, ‘O Allah, keep spies and news from the Quraysh until we take them by surprise in their land.’”

YES THEY ARE SPREADIND IN THE WORLD CIAR, HUMAN RIGHTS?

NOW WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

Qur’an 8:61 “But if the enemy inclines toward peace, do you (also) incline to peace, and trust in Allah. Should they intend to deceive or cheat you, verily Allah suffices: He strengthened you with His aid and with Believers.” [The small print is real important. “Should they intend to deceive or cheat” is an open invitation to invoke 8:57 to 60. The first to interpret this surah said:]

Ishaq:326 “If they ask you for peace on the basis of Islam (submission), make peace on that basis. Be of one mind by His religion.”

Tabari VIII:17 “The Muslims and polytheists stayed in their positions for twenty nights with no fighting except for the shooting of arrows and the siege. When the trial became great for the people, the Messenger sent for the leaders of the Ghatafan [Meccan comrades]. He offered them a third of the date harvest of Medina on condition that they leave. The truce between the sides progressed to the point of drawing up a written document, but there was no witnessing or firm determination to make peace; it was only a matter of maneuvering.”

WHAT THEY TEACH

Ishaq:454 “Now that Allah has conferred Islam on us, and made us famous, shall we give them our property? By Allah, we will offer them only the sword until Allah judges between us.’ ‘As you wish,’ said Allah’s Messenger.”

THEY DEFy THEIR gods JUDGEMENT LOOK AT THE 67 WAR IN ISRAEL, ISRAEL DEFEATED 5 ARAB COUNTRIES AND LOOK AT IRAQ THE COLIATION [USA AND FRIENDS] HAS DEFETEDED saddan[yellow coward found in a hole don't shoot I’m a coward] LOOK AT WHO WAS DEFEATED IN AFHGAN ubl[yellow coward who runs away]
they defy their own book so they are to be cursed and their children children’s as well!!
Let’s not forget the pelage in Africa of Locus that is eating the land they killed Christians for??
WHEN I READ THIS IT LOOKS LIKE THAT GOD HAS CHOSEN THE WINNER AND IT AINT ISLAMIC TERRORIST OR THOSE WHO FLLOW THEM!!!

AND THEN THERE IS THIS TO FOLLOW?? YEA HE WAS SO PEACEFUL??

Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.””

MAN OF PEACE??

Ishaq:544 “Muhammad commanded the people to prepare for the foray [raid, incursion, sortie, attack, or assault]. The Messenger informed his troops that he was going to Mecca. He ordered them to prepare themselves and ready their equipment quickly. He said, ‘O Allah, keep spies and news from the Quraysh until we take them by surprise in their land.’”

YEA STEALING LAND THROUGH WAR??

Tabari VIII:17 “The Muslims and polytheists stayed in their positions for twenty nights with no fighting except for the shooting of arrows and the siege. When the trial became great for the people, the Messenger sent for the leaders of the Ghatafan [Meccan comrades]. He offered them a third of the date harvest of Medina on condition that they leave. The truce between the sides progressed to the point of drawing up a written document, but there was no witnessing or firm determination to make peace; it was only a matter of maneuvering.”

LIES LIES LIES??

Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”

Mahammad forced himself on her. This is how it happened:

Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”

Muhammad raped a baby. I guess you are so proud of worshiping a pig like that, huh ? lets not forgt, muhammad used the moon to measure seasons, so she was not nine yet, only 8 years old.

NOW IN IRAN THEY WAIT UNTILL 10 YEARS OLD WOW! OH MY!!

Bukhari:V1B1N6 “Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.”

NOW IS THIS THE MAN OF PEACE YOU SPEAK??

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’”

WHAT A WONDREFUL THING??

RACISM:

Ishaq:243 “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom.” [9:61] “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”

So all the killing of black mulsums by arabs is normal? So why have Black American joined mulsums? They want to be killed by arabs?

Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’

Boy did this guy have a huge ego? And quite demented?

some things to look at?

Qur’an 6:66
“The people reject this (Book) and call it a lie though it is the truth. Say: ‘I am not a warden over you.’ ...When you see men who meddle with Our Revelations, turn away, withdrawing from them. Satan makes you forget.

SATAN MAKES YOU FORGET??

LETS LOOK AT YOUR MAN OF PEACE nasseem[STUPID WOMAN] HE LIKES TO TORCHER,KILL,AND STEAL AND WAR??

NOW IN MY BOOK THAT DOG YOUR TRYING TO HUNT AINT GOT NO NOSE!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY TO DEFEAT ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT AMEN

This is what you say:
“Islam has not received sufficient recognition in France. There is a lack of places to pray. There are not enough chaplaincies nor enough cemeteries. We are aware that young French people, the sons and daughters of Muslim immigrants, are still held back socially and suffer discrimination. All monitoring bodies recognize this. Consequently, “French-style” secularism has lost a great deal of value in the eyes of these young people”

This is what I say:
“Sufficient recognition” in France? Europe? On its percentage of population, Islam is getting a lot of recognition. Think Theo VanGogh. Think Spanish trains. Think 9/11. And all the internet’s a hum with how France is now a dhimmi nation, how sad, how sorrowful. Europe is being besieged with Muslims of all kinds, the good and the evil. Although currently it seems, the good Muslim is the bad Muslim and the bad Muslim is the good (doctrinely pure) one. It’s very Orwellian and disturbing, and is your problem.. So get off this one and enjoy your fifteen minutes.

There is never a lack of places to pray, one may pray alone, outside, in each other’s homes. There’s no lack of places to pray. As to cemeteries, I don’t understand.

You have to come up with your chaplains yourself. This is an internal matter in your religion and the Free cannot help you.

Everyone suffers. Your young, ours. But don’t play the victim. It is the slave of a master/slave relationship in the society. If you play by the rules of civilized society, you can play, if you can’t, you will have to go. Civilized society does not oppress women, doesn’t cheat, lie or steal, much less commit brutal murder on an innocent human being. NEVER. This is a code the Free adhere to and agree on, whether religious, secularist, whatevers, we agree on a basic code of conduct and if the young Muslims want to be a part of this civilization, then they must abide by that code and they will not suffer from discrimination but instead be a new generation that mixes the best of the east and west.

This is what you say:
Two possibilities lie before them. They can rediscover the strength of a real, living secularism, that is, political action on behalf of their rights and to demand the social gains fought for by their fathers and mothers-who belonged to social classes, cultures, peoples and nations before they belonged to Islam.

This is what I say:
Blah, blah, blah blah. Whoops, wait a second, secularism, political action . . .rights . . classes. …before Islam? in the same manifesto, whoops, manifesto? Manifesto? Something registers. A glimmer, ah yes. It’s my old friend, commrade geste o.

And last but not least what you say:
We are women and men of Muslim culture. Some of us are believers, others are agnostics or atheists.(a ha)

This is what I say:
How can believers of Islam be a part of your group if their religious doctrine says it is okay to kill all the rest of us? And have a belief that makes us, the Free, the enemy?

Naseem, I appreciate your irenicism. Also, you have a culture and a religion, and these are things that are not easy to change, and indeed, changes can be painful (speaking as one who moved from secularism to Christ). I suppose you now know some of the things that make us non-Muslims question Islam, and stay with the faiths we have or convert to something else that isn't Islamic.

Also, while I am one who thinks UBL a very dangerous man, and cannot mourn when the Israelis kill someone who'd trick unwary ten-year-olds into carrying out suicide missions, I also know that their are Muslims with whom I can live. I recognize, for instance, that Muslim dissidents from Eastern Turkistan have, in their postings elsewhere on the net, stood up for persecuted Christians in eastern and central China (and, for me, the journey is still out on who's to blame for Muslim-Han clashes in the recent blow-ups in Honan province, China). I note that a devout Shi'ite blogger from Iraq yelled more loudly against the bombing of Iraqi churches than the Pope himself (perhaps he was personally acquainted with some of the victims?)

Still, many of us who defend a Muslimah's right to wear a hijab in a Western country and defend the right to practice a religion with which we cannot agree still cannot but be aware of how the 9/11 bombers defined and justified their mission; or how others of the same ilk responded to Spain's withdrawal from Iraq by socking it to L'Espana Boba again.

Naseem, I appreciate your irenicism. Also, you have a culture and a religion, and these are things that are not easy to change, and indeed, changes can be painful (speaking as one who moved from secularism to Christ). I suppose you now know some of the things that make us non-Muslims question Islam, and stay with the faiths we have or convert to something else that isn't Islamic.

Also, while I am one who thinks UBL a very dangerous man, and cannot mourn when the Israelis kill someone who'd trick unwary ten-year-olds into carrying out suicide missions, I also know that their are Muslims with whom I can live. I recognize, for instance, that Muslim dissidents from Eastern Turkistan have, in their postings elsewhere on the net, stood up for persecuted Christians in eastern and central China (and, for me, the journey is still out on who's to blame for Muslim-Han clashes in the recent blow-ups in Honan province, China). I note that a devout Shi'ite blogger from Iraq yelled more loudly against the bombing of Iraqi churches than the Pope himself (perhaps he was personally acquainted with some of the victims?)

Still, many of us who defend a Muslimah's right to wear a hijab in a Western country and defend the right to practice a religion with which we cannot agree still cannot but be aware of how the 9/11 bombers defined and justified their mission; or how others of the same ilk responded to Spain's withdrawal from Iraq by socking it to L'Espana Boba again.

Naseem -- The sheer act of incorporating Jesus into the Koran doesn't make Jesus a Muslim any more than singing Morning Has Broken at a revival would make Cat Stevens a Baptist.

Jesus claimed as a prophet of Islam is such an internal contradiction in the Koran that I cannot understand how any thinking person could remain a Muslim. Don't be afraid to let your mind move in another direction.

Poetess, I like your post. As for a public place to pray, I think an important part of being Muslim is having people look at you, notice you, and notice your piety. They want to be in the center of attention, like little kids wanting mommy's approval.