More news from "moderate" Indonesia. From Straits Times, with thanks to Nicolei:
JAKARTA - FEARS of attacks by Islamic militants are forcing some Christians in Indonesia to abandon traditional churches in favour of more discreet and secure venues this Christmas.With foreign governments warning of holiday terror bombings, thousands of churches in major Indonesian cities will hold services this year in office buildings, hotels and even movie theatres, church leaders say.
'It puts us at a lower risk of being a target for religious persecution,' said Pastor Steve Lunn, originally from Seattle, whose International English Service holds services for 1,000 people in a downtown Jakarta office building.
'People tell me they feel safer,' he said.
'The facility itself is not the most important thing. It's just a place to gather. The most important thing is being together and worshipping God together.'
Indonesia, a sprawling archipelago of more than 13,000 islands and 210 million people, is the world's most populous Muslim nation.
The vast majority of Muslims practise a moderate version of the faith.
Sure they do. That's why Christians are meeting for Christmas in movie theaters.
And the idea that Christians should have second-class status, a traditional concept of Islamic law, is alive and well there:
But attacks against Christians, who make up just 8 per cent of the population, have become more frequent since ex-dictator Suharto's downfall in 1998, and amid a global rise in Islamic radicalism. Mr Suharto enforced secularism as part of national security policies....'People are still afraid,' said Pastor Hengki Ompi, whose church was attacked earlier this month by suspected Muslim gunmen on the central Indonesian island of Sulawesi.
'We hope the attacks stop so we can celebrate Christmas without fear.'
Plans to build new churches are sometimes met with violent protests from Islamic groups, which view them as an attempt to convert Muslims.
Church leaders also say a decree requiring religious leaders to get neighbourhood approval before building new places of worship is being used to discriminate against them.
Some church leaders say these obstacles are understandable, given the country's Muslim majority, and acknowledge that Muslims face similar problems in the few pockets of Indonesia where Christians dominate.
But others say the restrictions reflect a growing intolerance of religious minorities.
'We have a lot more liberties than say Afghanistan and Pakistan...but the fact is that Christians are second-class citizens,' said Pastor Bill Heckman, a Dutchman who has tried for six years to build a church in Jakarta....
Muslims say evangelical Christians are partly to blame for rising religious tensions.
They say hundreds of foreign-funded evangelical groups are using churches in Muslim-dominated neighbourhoods to convert locals - a claim some Christians acknowledge is true.
In response, the government has proposed a law that would bar Indonesians from attending religious ceremonies that do not reflect their faith - making it harder for them to switch.
It would also criminalise inter-faith marriages and adoptions.
'We have a lot more liberties than say Afghanistan and Pakistan'
For now, pastor, for now. What's to say of tomorrow?
"but the fact is that Christians are second-class citizens,' said Pastor Bill Heckman, a Dutchman who has tried for six years to build a church in Jakarta"
Under what pretext has churchbuilding been denied to these christians? Can't we ban mosque-building under similar loopholes?
Like say, you need a 2/3rds majority 'yes' vote in state legislatures top authorise any new mosques being built anywhere in a astate etc.
I'm adamant I won't let muzzies spoil x'mas cheer this time or anytime after!
I am a regular reader of this site. First time-poster. It would appear that a common theme of many of the posts is the issue of to what extent there really is something called "moderate" Islam - a theme that comes up again in this post. I don't want to be off-topic but would welcome some insights by Mr. Spencer (in future posts) or by the many commenters at this site, who appear to know alot about Islam - regarding SUFI Islam.
My understanding was that Sufi Islam belongs in the purely mystical tradition and that in Sufism Jihad is understood purely as an internal spiritual struggle, which would certainly fit the bill of "moderate". But then I did a little searching on the web and it appears that al Queda itself - as well as the Moslem Brotherhood, actually come from the Sufi tradition (as apparently do the Iraqi Kurds?) So now I am thoroughly confused. A little knowledge is perhaps a dangerous thing!
I also read on an ex-Muslim site that Sufism was an invention of the Persians who sort of had an Uh-oh moment when they really saw what the Koran was saying. The implication was that they reinterpreted the whole thing metaphorically - as an internal struggle.
I raise these issues because if it is true that Sufism is a non-violent strain of Islam, and given the consequences of apostasy in Islam - could one solution to the "Islamic problem" be to encourage more Muslims to switch to Sufism? That would avoid apostasy but deal with the fundamental problem at the same time.
I would appreciate any insights into Sufism that the readers might have......
My apologies for the off-topic post..
That's a good question... but no telling where the truly educated ones on this are at the moment :P Most of us are in as much need of further study as you are, and Christmas Dinner is calling! Stay tuned, something will turn up.
btw, anyone know how much vermouth is Too much vermouth? First-time martini maker...
In regards to the reference in the article about relatively less persecution against Christians under President Suharto...
There is something to be said for thinking twice about toppling dictatorships, especially if the power vacuum created is worse than the perceived oppression caused by the dictator. In Iraq, Christians were much better off under Saddam Hussein;now they are being coerced to either convert to Islam or leave the country. Christian college students are being threatened with acid thrown in their face if they don't wear the appropriate coverings. I would be surprised if sharia law is not established in Iraq in the next few years.
Sure they do. That's why Christians are meeting for Christmas in movie theaters.
'We hope the attacks stop so we can celebrate Christmas without fear.'
It would also criminalise inter-faith marriages and adoptions.
And how long ago was it some mulsum was saying how they get along in Indonoeisa??
Yea they are nice t the Chirstians only burn a few and cut off a fews heads just to keep them in line??
AINT HAPPENING IN THE USA USE THE BIBLE TO FIND YOUR COURAGE TO STAND AND FIGHT IT IS THERE!!
One thing that is happing is the W.H.O. has run out of money and these third world places will not get the Marlia drugs??
Now ask yourself who will this hurt?? The Cristians are the Slaves to the mulsums??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the Course to Victory to Defeat All islamic terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
Protest Statement
Regarding the Remarks of Indonesian Newly Elected VP, Jusuf Kalla
A Call for World Justice to lift Discrimination towards Ethnic Chinese in Indonesia
Initiated by
ICANET (Indonesian, Chinese, American Network) San Francisco
ICAA (Indonesian Chinese American Association) Los Angeles
CCEVI (Canadian Concern of Ethnic Violence in Indonesia) Toronto
October 20, 2004
On Sinar Harapan Daily, October 12, 2004, as well as on Al Jazeera.net on October 15, 2004, we learned that the newly elected Vice President of Indonesia, Jusuf Kalla, expressed the following racist remarks:
The Jakarta daily Sinar Harapan (Voice of Hope) this week quoted Jusuf saying he was considering changes on lending polices that would lower the interest rates on loans to a group overwhelmingly comprised (by his own admission up to 95%) of indigenous Indonesian businessmen.
Jusuf claims that the policy will level the business playing field and reduce the amount of discrimination directed at the nation's tiny ethnic Chinese community.
When asked whether the policy was discriminatory, he replied: "Would you (Indonesian Chinese) choose to be discriminated against or you prefer to be burned out and hunted down?"
With this letter, we strongly condemn this discriminatory statement and demand apology from the Vice President. We believe that this sort of comment should not be expressed by Indonesian leader with pluralistic society that hopefully promotes fairness, unity, harmony and racial tolerance. His remarks, gave a strong impression that VP Jusuf Kalla tolerates the state discrimination and violence towards ethnic Chinese in Indonesia, including unsettled bloody May Riots 1998.
We strongly call all Indonesian Citizens and World Citizens who have a heart for humanity to urge this new administration of Indonesia, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and VP Jusuf Kalla, as follow;
1. To bring to justice the actors and perpetrators of May Riots 1998 that victimized ethnic Chinese Indonesians.
2. To stop official government discrimination and to abolish 60 Articles of Discrimination towards Ethnic Chinese in Indonesia
3. To respect the human rights of all minorities, including Chinese and Christian in Indonesia.
4. To stop on-going church closing, burning and destruction throughout Indonesia.
Contact: ICANET President - Peter Phwan - 415-812-2414
CC:
Leland Yee, California State Assembly and Speaker Pro Tempore
Diane Feinstein, U.S. Senator
Barbara Boxer, U.S. Senator
Nancy Pelosi , U.S. Congresswoman and Leader of the Democratic Party
Colin Powell, U.S. Secretary of State
Basillo Chen, Chairman of the California Republican Party District of San Mateo
Tom Lantos, U.S. Congressman
Jackie Speir, California State Senator
George Radanovich, U.S. Congressman
Bok Pon, Former two term California Republican Party Vice Chairman and 2nd Asst. Secretary
Edward Liu, Huaren
John Miller, East Timor Action Network (ETAN)
Medea Benjamin, Co Chairwoman Global Exchange
catherine
good to be able to read your posting,I like your humuor,and you make some very accurate comments,
I bave not lost sight that our goal is the same
but our approach is different
Any-way for now enjoy your X-mas and all the partying it entails.Hope it;s not to cold for the short skirts
so merry X-mass catherine and all the rest of you JW'ers,also you nasseem where-ever u r,also to you robert,hughe and every body involved with this site
See the big picture. The pattern is the same worldwide: where Muslims become a majority or even a force, non-Muslims suffer to the point of becoming second-class citizens in their own country.
Europeans are the example. For this reason, suppressing Islam is not discrimination, it's common sense and self-defense. There may be moderate Muslims, but there is no moderation in Islam. Once Muslims sense that they can take the advantage they will, and the less moderate ones will come forward and the result is plain to see ALL OVER THE WORLD today as well as in the historical record.
Has anyone noticed that those Countries that are avid supporters of Islamists were the main
targets for the massive Tsunama that has killed about 25,000 people so far.
Remember when Iraq was invaded to bring freedom to the Iraqis and Iran attacked the USA and harboured some terrorists,Iran was hit with a massive EarthQuake that buried about 30,000 villagers in mounds of rubble.
Muslims are mislead by the claims that Allah blesses those that kill the infidels for the Islamic cause,the Islamic cult uses the threat of death as a way to assure Muslims don't hear the truth and make a free-will choice to oppose the killing of Gods children for Allah.