Deal agreed on EU talks with Turkey

This is so stupid.

Why do we need Turkey in the EU? It's only partly in Europe because of previous conquests of the Ottaman Empire.

Conspicuous by its absence was any discussion of why Turkey still won't own up to the Armenian genocide.

It shows how in a democracy the government will legislate in favour of a small group that feels strongly on an issue rather than a large group that doesn't.

It seems to me that the EU governments are canvassing the vote of their sizeable Muslim minorities.

In the recent EU elections there was only about a 25% turn out, signalling that most people don't really care what happens in Europe.

I get the feeling that the infidel majorities will one day regret their apathy.

Europeans must start organizing demonstrations to this, especially in smaller, liberal nations like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands. Can't folks see this marks the end of European life as it has been known in these countries (and others as well, of course)? Every citizen should hit the streets and speak out.

It ain't over till it's over, kids.

Just watched the 6 o'clock news and they had a brief mention of the Armenians protesting outside against what they described as "what the Armenians allege was a genocide"

The BBC santitisation of Jihadi violence and genocide is sickening.

The thought of Turkey entering Europe without undergoing massive self chastisement and acceptance of its genocide of Armenian Christians will pollute and debase the whole of Europe.

Anyway, this is just conditions for initial negotiations. There are still many many hurdles that have to be met. It isnt over yet.

The long night starts here, my friends. The long night .. a night of pain, suffering and dhimmitude. Be prepared.

Kaffir Boy is right, this is not a vote for accession, it is just a vote to commence negotiations to lead to an agreement to terms and conditions upon which a vote for accession would then be taken. In this respect, I wholeheartedly agree that these negotiations should commence.

First, these negotiations are expected to take years, any vote on accession is at least ten years away. During these negotiations, Turkey will have to demonstrate, in addition to the financial restructuring it has already undertaken, that it has conformed its constitution and national laws to conform with the EU constitution and the secular standards of the EU.

Assume that the EU secular standards erode less quickly than the secular standards of Turkey need to improve, what than becomes possible is a complete schism of Turkish islam into what I will call Turkslam. The schism is a complete break from mohammedism and mecca as the center of islam (just like that other great schism of the eleventh century). The primary feature of Turkslam is that it is just another religion coexisting under secular rule with all other religions, based on personal worship and connection to a deity(ies) without any pretense of superiority over any other religious or agnostic belief system or non-belief system. More importantly, it recegnizes the secular rule of all and can not by its nature profess superiority over national laws.

The result of such schism will of course make Turkslam a "honeypot" for the mohammedan jihadist, who will correctly regard Turkslam as apostasy and its followers heretics to be smitten from the earth by the most violent means possible. Should such civil unrest befall Turkey, its accession would be voted down.

However, should the transition be peaceful, then a great historical and momentous change would have occurred. All the other conditions, such as recognition of Cyprus and the the Armenian genocide would naturally fall into place and become non-issues to Turkey since there has been a total divorce from the prior belief system supporting them.

The converse possibility is that Turkey will hold true and fast to islamic and mohammedan principles during the negotiations for accession. It's recalcitrance to adopt to EU secularism while insisting on a privileged status if islam in the EU would either cause reasonable national leaders of the EU to firmly reject accession. If the EU elites still vote for accession over objections of the majority of its populace (and they will still be the majority in ten years) civil unrest of the like of which we haven't seen in a long time is a distinct possibility, assuming the European people in face of the rising fundamentalism of an alien culture become more European fundamentist themselves.

Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" will occur along one of two fault lines. The current fault line is the EU-Turkey border. If that fault line could be moved to the Turkey-Iranian border, it may benefit us all, for Iran, with its popular dissent to the brutally enforced rule-by-mullah may be the next to fall to reject mohammedan islam and embrace Turkslam.

Consider the possibilities of what the world could then look like in ten years time. Fundamental mohammadan islam existing as an island between Hindu India and new secular states of Afghanistan and Iran. Should Iraq experiment be successful and be secularized then Syria falls like a domino wedged between Israel and Iraq. The fault line is now moved right up to the border of the House of Saud, checkmate.

Jack Straw has just appeared on channel 4 news one thing that was mentioned was Turkey won't have "full" rights to migrate round EU , so I don't know exactly what that means.
"Full" as opposed to what ?

But the problem is that the EU have promised Turkey that even if it won't be given full membership it will in some other ways be anchored on to the European Union.

Why did they need to promise them anything at all? Now they've needlessly weakened their bargaining hand. What definite commitments has Turkey made as far as Cyprus, Armenia, the Kurds and human rights are concerned?

Wouldn't this have been a good way to try and get the Turks to create a homeland for the Kurds, the largest ethnic group in the world without a place to call their own?

Once again it seems that all the concessions are being made by the infidels without the Muslims conceding anything.

What one way street this multi-culturalism is!
------------------------

Also if the pattern established by other soon-to-be member states is anything to go by, there will be a loosening of visa restrictions to Turks wishing to enter Europe.

All Europeans should demand a referendum on Turkish accession. No free pass on Turkish expansionism!

Well the Netherlands built dykes to reclaim and preserve their land. What kind of dykes can they build to keep this flood out that is allready threatening their sovereignty.

Our movement will gain momentum as attitudes change.Our whimps in government will change too.

We may not have that much time left, but we can do something to prevent it from happening!!!

What Europeans should do now is:

have christians go down to Turkey and try to convert as many muslims as possible. If Turkey objects, then point out that if Turkey was in the EU christians would be able to do this.

Also have gays go down there and open gay bars, and have a gay pride parade.
If Turkey objects, point out that in the EU gays will be able to do this.

Let ordinary Europeans go down to Turkey and open businesses and live their own lives, and see how far they can do so without Turkish authority coming down on them.

Voltaire:

Christian groups are already very active in Turkey, and There are many gay associations in Turkey:

"Lambda Istanbul is the most important gay association in Turkey. Its headquarters are in Istanbul, the only Turkish (with Ankara as a minor part) city where it is nowadays possible to speak about a truly urban gay culture. The Lambda Association is one of the privileged places of the politically-active community and serves as a meeting spot for other organizations which possess a political or alternative character."

From:
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/9440/mesa.htm

Have you ever been to Turkey? Did you think it is like Iran or Saudi Arabia?

OT, but get a load of this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;sessionid=IZMHITPHAJBSPQFIQMGSM5OAVCBQWJVC?xml=/opinion/2004/12/18/do1801.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/12/18/ixopinion.html

Charles Moore (of the Telegraph)rocks. Peace be upon him, as it were.

John Derbyshire of National review, himself a staunch conservative columnist, argues in national review why he believes Turkey should be admitted to the EU:

http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire200410050830.asp

October 05, 2004, 8:30 a.m.
Let ’Em In
EU membership will bourgeoisify Turkey.

Should Turkey be admitted to the European Union? The past few weeks have seen some fine arguments both pro (from the London Spectator) and con (from Steve Sailer). Read 'em and ponder.

Personally, I hadn't been giving the matter more than idle thought until I recently heard from my brother in England that his son, my nephew, has bought a summer home in Turkey. My nephew is an ordinary non-elite Englishman. He runs a small home-improvement business while raising two kids in a quiet provincial town. If he is buying property in Turkey, a lot of other English people must be, too. Sure enough, a Google search of "property in turkey" brought up over three million hits, most of the high-order ones listing prices in pounds sterling, with some very nice villas in the range £50,000 to £100,000 — prices that will buy you a time-share in a broom closet in London.

It would be nice to think that wild Johnny Turk, scourge of Western Civ for all those centuries, might be tamed at last by mild-mannered young English blokes stopping him in the street to ask: "'Scuse me, anywhere round 'ere I can get a nice curry an' a pint of lager, an' some petrol for me motor?" Nice, but slightly melancholy. The Turks used to boast a kind of colorful barbarian vigor, after all. Now, instead of trying to batter down Europe's door, they are knocking politely on it. Presumably they will soon, like the Europeans and the rest of the bourgeois world, be absorbed in diet fads, celebrity gossip, and dull debates about gay marriage and the capital-gains tax. Was the Battle of Manzikert fought in vain?

I'm going to confess to being a Turkophile, though on vague and shallow grounds that don't look like much in the way of reasoned justification when I set them down on screen. Most people of English background are similarly inclined, I think. Gallipoli has something to do with it: The English always admire people who defeat them by fighting bravely in fair battle. A bigger factor is probably the Cyprus "emergency" of the 1950s. Thousands of young Englishmen — the country had conscription at the time — served in the war against the terrorists of EOKA, Greek Cypriots seeking union with Greece. To uniformed soldiers there is something deeply disgusting and contemptible about terrorism, and I am afraid those thousands — young men just half a generation older than myself, including neighbors and cousins — returned home with a strong antipathy to Greeks, and correspondingly warm feelings towards the Turkish Cypriots who were EOKA's primary targets. The 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus was generally approved of in England, as I recall. No doubt this is unfair to Greeks; but this is how we form our impressions.

There is also a quite distinctive Turkish outlook on life that I find rather appealing. Back in May of '03 I posted on The Corner the only words I know how to say in Turkish, the proverb: "Nerede cokluk, orada bokluk." This flushed out our Turkish NRO readers, and led to this follow-up post by me:

I am amazed at the number of Turkish readers we have. The proverb I posted — "Nerede cokluk, orada bokluk" — does indeed translate pretty much as I posted it: "Where there are people, there is doo-doo." It is used to express the perception, which seems to be strong among Turks, that all human affairs — especially those involving large numbers of people — contain an irreducible and unavoidable component of disorder, mess, chaos, bungling, stupidity, screw-up, SNAFU, FUBAR, monkeys trying to get intimate with footballs, etc. etc. etc. The nearest American equivalent would be — cleaning up the language a little — "stuff happens."

There is, of course, the matter of Islam. I am aware that I part company with a lot of readers here — spare me the e-mails — but I'm not inclined to blame Islam for much of what ails the world at present. Turkish Islam seems anyway to be of the milder sort, and willing to accommodate modernity to a degree not seen in Saudi Arabia or Iran. (It probably helps that Turkey has not much in the way of natural resources, so her people have to work for their living.) Jason Goodwin, in his fine brief history of the Ottoman Empire, describes medieval Turkish Islam as a "stripped-down racing version" of the faith. A Turkish colleague I once worked with, a Jew from Istanbul, once told me he had never experienced any but the mildest kind of anti-Semitism in Turkey — though he added that he had spent his life in urban surroundings, and that the state of affairs out in the countryside was "quite different."

My colleague's remark points to Europeans' real objections to letting Turkey into their club: She is, as most European nations were until recently, a nation with a huge peasant population, uneducated and pious. I suspect that the fact of their piety being directed at a non-European religion is actually secondary. What bothers Europeans is an influx of Great Unwashed (the EU rules dictate open borders between member states) pouring into Europe to work for rock-bottom wages or to leech off the extravagant European welfare state. They regard Turks, in fact, in rather that same way that U.S. immigration restrictionists regard Central Americans.

As an immigration restrictionist myself, the question of Turkey's admittance to the EU should be a no-brainer for me: I ought to sympathize with the Europeans and be against it. Unfortunately things aren't so simple. The main reason they are not so simple is that the EU is not the U.S. — is, in fact, a very different thing altogether. How you feel about Turkey's admittance to the EU, in fact, depends largely on how you feel about the EU itself.

First, note that the proposal under discussion is that Turkey be brought into the EU, under EU conditions, regulations, and laws. So far as I know, nobody has yet suggested incorporating Mexico, Guatemala, etc., into the USA under the U.S. Constitution. Now, there are a great many things to be said against the EU (see Andrew Stuttaford's posts on The Corner for pretty comprehensive coverage). The EU does indeed have alarming tendencies in the direction of bureaucratic despotism — the famous "democratic deficit" that Anglo-Saxon-Celts, but not many other EU members, fret about. There are solutions for that, though. It is not inconceivable — I agree that this is not the current direction of the EU, I only say that it is not inconceivable — that the EU might evolve into a free-trade zone whose administrators practice a much more respectful and non-interfering attitude toward national particularity and national sovereignty. Indeed, the admission of a big nation with a strong sense of nationhood — like Turkey — might help turn the EU in that direction. (And if it doesn't, the Anglo-Saxon-Celts have a last-ditch solution in their own hands: They could just leave the EU.)

More to the point, though — and the reason I myself favor Turkish admission to the EU — is the power of EU membership, and even of just the desire to achieve EU membership, to bourgeoisify a nation. There are many bad things you can say about the EU, but there is also this one great good thing: It bourgeoisifies. That is, it turns introverted, badly run countries into lean, orderly, boring, modern ones.

I have watched it do just this to a nation I know well: Ireland. When I first visited Ireland in the late 1960s she was in a pretty, well, Turkish condition: some nice modern cities marred by ugly slums, backed by a hinterland of pious, poverty-stricken peasants. I have seen children playing barefoot in the streets of Dublin; I have worked on construction crews with men from Ireland's west, men who married at age 18, had six or eight children apiece, and who, though functionally illiterate, could name all the Stations of the Cross.

That is not the Ireland of today. All has been transformed, utterly, for better or worse. Now, to be sure, Ireland is a small nation, while Turkey is a large one. Turkey is not that large in relation to the EU, though. The EU population is currently around 456 million; Turkey has 68 million, a ratio of 6.7 to 1. The population ratio of the USA to Central America, by contrast, is 2.0 to 1 — and that's excluding the Caribbean, which brings it down to 1.7 or so (depending on whether you include Cuba).

So if I had to bet on one of the following possibilities:

The EU will tame and bourgeoisify Turkey, or
Turkey will disrupt and Islamicize the EU,

my money would be on the former. This takes in a lot of assumptions, of course, so I wouldn't be betting any very large sum of money. Among those assumptions: That my sketchy understanding of Turkish society and culture is sound; that the EU will continue to be a bourgeoisifying force; that modernization will act on Turkish peasant Islam; and that the Islamofascist infection will not spread to Turkey. All those assumptions are reasonable, though. While any one of them might turn out wrong, none demands any great leap of faith.

The world we are heading into, the world of the mid-21st century, will have two kinds of nations in it. There will be nations practicing constitutional politics and rational economics, and there will be basket-case nations whose people dwell in misery and chaos. The rising generation of human beings will live either in Bourgeoisia, or in Trashcanistan. We can see, just reading the daily news, nations trending one way or the other. Romania, for example, which looked like a sure future Trashcanistan just after the Ceausescu dictatorship fell, is now trending strongly towards Bourgeoisia. Contrariwise, Zimbabwe, which a generation ago had a fair chance of modernizing, is slipping fast into Trashcanistan status. (Current joke going around in Zimbabwe: "Q: What did we have before candles? A: Electricity.")

All the really interesting national dramas of the present day concern those countries — Russia, China, Iraq, Indonesia — that could still conceivably go either way, that might equally well end up, around the year 2050, as either Bourgeoisia or Trashcanistan. Turkey, I think, is in that category; and for Turkey, EU membership, or even the fair prospect of it, could tip the balance. I say let 'em in.

Even Jaques Chirac was forced to say that the ultimate decision from France's side lay with the french people. And french people in some surveys were clearly against turkey's accession.

There is hope yet!

Seena the Persian: When I was in Mainland China in the early 1990's, I ran into the Turks' stay-at-home cousins, the Uighurs. At the time, they contained the world's only radical Islamicists inclined to look positively on the United States--we had wagged a few fingers at Beijing over religious liberty.

However, I have seen news that the Turks are not letting Turkish Evangelicals build a church in Selcuk (=Ayasoluk/Agios Theologos; Ephesus). Also, since most Turkish Evangelicals at this point are ex-Muslims rather than ex-Orthodox or ex-Non-Chalcedonian, they are subject to a great deal of abuse, including murder. My own reaction to this is that Muslims put up mosques wherever they like in America; so why try to deny that there's been a small Los vom Islam in Turkey?

When I have a beer I don't want to worry about being fire-bombed. And if by chance I have a beer in a gay bar I don't want to worry about being killed for it!

When I walk down the street with my wife I don't want muslim teenagers to spit on her and calling her names because she wears a mini skirt. And I don't need the exitement fighting off a pack of wolves with an umbrella because they are pinching my girlfriends butt...

Been there, I know what it's like... It may have changed, but not for better, but for much worse...

And because I hate all that very, very much I hate it even more when it happens in Europe itself. By the looks of it we are not far from it...

I'm not familiar with earthtimes.org, but this article about Turkey/EU membership talks is quite revealing . . .emphasis on final paragraph mine:

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/897.html

EU will share borders with Iran, Iraq and Syria
Posted on : 2004-12-17| Author : J.Fernández| News Category : World

Friday 17th December 2004

Agreement has finally been reached today between Turkish and European Union leaders concerning commencement of EU membership talks, which should start in October 2005 between the EU and Ankara.

The association agreement between the Union and Turkey signed as a first step to membership was done as far back as 1963, over 40 years previous. The agreement today was reached after negotiations between Turkey and the 25 current EU member States. Negotiations had appeared to stall earlier when the EU had demanded recognition of Cyprus by Turkey and insisted that relations were resumed between the two Countries.

Cyprus has been a cause of disagreement since the invasion of Cyprus by Turkish forces in 1974, which split the Mediterranean Island paradise into two sectors; the Northern part of Turkish Cyprus and Greek Cypriot Cyprus in the South. The capital City remained Nicosia.

It is hope that this agreement for Turkey’s EU membership talks to begin could also aid the reunification process in Cyprus, between the Turkish and Greek Cypriot sides. The Greek Cypriot southern Cyprus, which is the internationally recognized country, became a full EU member State in the latest round of permanent entries to the Union in May 2004.

****When Turkey enters the European Union it will become the largest member, with the biggest population and will stretch the borders of the European Union deep into the Middle East with Iran, Syria and Iraq among its neighbors in what

- - - - can 'only' be discribed as - - -
- - - a 'positive' move - - -
- - - to 'distribute' - - -
wealth and opportunity into the region.****

I saw Blair on TV this morning. He still denies that there is a 'clash of cultures' between Islamics and ourselves.

Saw that sickening parvenu Shredder with his friend Chirac, the blowfrog. All of them singing the same song: Let's have more muzzies,,, let the next generation sort it out...

Erdogan already proclaimed victory. Who could blame him?

None of these Eurabian knights dared to ask the obvious:
Turkey OUT of Cyprus!!!

Compensation to the Greek Cypriots! Muzzies clean up, ship out ... and then we'll talk!

Sounds more like another sellout instead....