A sometime writer on Islam named Denis MacEoin recently posted in the comments section here his intention to unsubscribe to the Jihad Watch/Dhimmi Watch Daily Digest because of his distate for some of the comments posted. Of course, I regard some of them with distaste myself, as I have noted on many occasions, but comments continue to be largely unmoderated -- until such time as funding permits me to hire a full-time moderator -- and hateful rants posted by non-Muslims no more reflect my own views than hateful rants posted by Muslims.
In any case, Jihad Watch Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald has written a response to Mr. MacEoin's complaints, which I thought worthwhile to post as a separate article since it contains much that is useful to help us all keep our focus where it should be.
In order to keep up that subscriber base which is so important for our advertising revenues – Robert tells me we may lose the Tiffany account, and others whisper that both BMW and the Absolut Vodka people are not so sure that they want to continue advertising in Jihadwatch for much longer, so let me do a little damage control by reminding one and all of our virtues.In the first place, many items of news posted at Jihadwatch/Dhimmiwatch are never reported in the American press, or reported much later. This gathering of so much material, from such wide and disparate sources, showing a worldwide phenomenon, prompted by the same texts and tenets, but expressing itself in local violences and aggressions – is valuable.
So too are many of the postings, which offer analysis that is often useful, and personal testimonies from non-Muslims, from Nigeria, to Indonesia, from Spain to Egypt. It is true that not every posting is a masterpiece of understatement. Sometimes, out of sheer frustration at the refusal of so many to see what is staring them in the face, or at the organized hypocrisy of, for example, the E.U. or the U.N. or the Arab League, posters give vent to a fury that sometimes is American in its hyperbole rather than English in its litotes. We all have our favorite figures of speech. Mine are paronomasia and hypallage. What are yours?
In any case, this is a come-one, come-all forum, largely unmonitored. Readers can winnow the wheat from the chaff themselves.
Denis MacEoin knows that the academic study of Islam is a school for scandal. The Saudis and other rich Arabs have in essence bought up the "Islamic studies" field, sometimes by setting up "centers" in Bradford, or Durham, or Exeter, or Georgetown, and if not the Saudis, then Kuwaitis or representatives of assorted emirates and sheikdoms (better watch this, because The Ruler of Bahrain elevated himself to the “Prince” and now he has given himself a promotion to “King of Bahrain,” much to the amusement of J. B. Kelly and others with experience in the Gulf). St. Antony’s rests on the money left by Anton Besse, an Adeni Jewish trader who would not be pleased by the use to which his legacy has been put, at least in the Middle Eastern section of that St. Antony’s gallimaufry.
MacEoin wrote "New Jerusalems" a dozen years ago. It was a good book about Islam and Rushdie, and is listed in the bibliography to Ibn Warraq’s “Why I Am Not a Muslim.” He had to leave Durham, so the story goes (he can certainly set us all straight) because he was teaching about Islam in a way that did not satisfy the Saudis, and the Saudi paymasters ran everything, as they do in so many places, and not merely in academic life.
Now that MacEoin makes his living as a writer – of thrillers under the name “Daniel Easterman” and also “Jonathan Aycliffe,” – he surely pays attention to words. Why would he regard as “racist” attacks on an ideology, a belief-system? What does that have to do with “racism”?
Mr. MacEoin/Easterman/Aycliffe may retain some residual defensiveness about Islam, in the matter of those "esthetic" apologists for Islam, who are willing to go far in deploring, especially in private, much about Islam and Muslims, but for some reason continue to act as Defenders of the Faith to one degree or another. Eric Ormsby of Montreal, and Robert Irwin of the TLS both come to mind. One finds Al-Ghazali fascinating, and yet judging by his essays in The New Criterion, has realized that Western cultural riches far outstrip whatever once entranced him about the study of Islam. Irwin’s translations of classical Arabic poetry keep him somehow tethered to the reservation – though his leash is long enough for him to have gone and taken a huge bite out of Edward Said, and one hopes he will complete a study of that dangerous and silly man. Both know more about Islam than they allow themselves to recognize – Irwin keeps assigning books on Mughal India, to Francis Robinson or William Dalrymple, which virtually insures not only apologetics, but apologetics of a Barbara-Cartlandish swoon-over-Mughal-court-intrigue-and-lovers-and-luxury sort. Maddening.
No one likes to have given a decade or three of his life to studying something that required mastery of a difficult tongue, and that in the end proves to be far less interesting than one’s native language or culture. Most of the sincere students of Islam find that there is not much there there, so they try to make it interesting for themselves, and part of making that thing interesting is to deny the essentially primitive and aggressive and mind-stunting nature of the belief-system of Islam. Almost everything of interest that has come out of high Islamic civilization was created despite, not because of, the strictures of Islam. Mughal miniatures, the science of Al-Rhazi, the ratiocination of Averroes or Al-Farabi and others who were hardly orthodox in much of their thought. That is worth remembering.
One hopes that the man who wrote "New Jerusalems,” even if he noisily unsubscribes, will occasionally peek in now and again. After all, it is not Jihadwatch that caused him to lose his academic post. It is not those at Jihadwatch who are helping to deliver England and the rest of European civilization into the plausible hands of Tariq Ramadan and others of that ilk.
One suspects that Mr. MacEoin/Easterman has a touch of the anti-American bug, and finds fault because this site is largely run by and from America. He might be surprised at at how many Europeans read this site, take comfort in it, and derive both profit and pleasure in what it offers -- as the ample evidence of emails suggests.
And it is mainly in Europe that one now senses most keenly the slipping-away of European civilization, not because of the innate and self-evident wonderfulness of the belief-system of Islam, but simply because the Muslim immigrants, with their large families, are outbreeding the locals, and when one adds the constant attempts at Da’wa, that appeal to the economically and psychically marginal, one realizes that even a belief-system as crude and primitive as this, with Manichaean division of the world between Believer and Infidel, dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb, may well destroy a far more worthy civilization. It has happened before in history.
Would Mr. MacEoin/Easterman/Aycliffe agree that almost every Englishman, Frenchman, Dutchman, Italian, German, Spaniard would agree, if asked, that he would gladly undo the Muslim migration into Europe over the past few decades? For the result is clear to all. The presence of Muslims beyond a handful (i.e., more than 1% of the population), has caused indigenous Infidels to lead lives that are far more constrained, unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than they would be, had the unchecked Muslim migration into Europe been, in a timely way, stopped or never allowed to start in the first place.
Before permitting such Muslim migrants in, European rulers engaged in no serious study of Islam, no reading of its canonical texts (Qur’an, hadith, sira). A generation of real scholars of Islam had died out, and they were hardly replaced by those whose agendas consisted of promotion of the Arab side of the Arab-Israeli dispute, and successful attempts at suppressing any real understanding or study of Islam.
Now, at this and other websites, one is being asked to take seriously what those texts are all about, and to understand that Muslims take them seriously, and it is those texts – not “poverty,” not resentment over “colonialism,” not a thousand other absurd excuses – that explain Beslan, and killings in Amsterdam, and explosions in Bali, or Jerusalem, or Baghdad, or Madrid, or Washington, or New York – it is Islam itself. The texts which people memorize from an early age, and hear recited everywhere, including in the khutbas at Friday Prayer, and along the street, and in daily conversation --- in short, in everything they read or hear or see, there is Qur'an, and hadith, and sira. A fantastic hold over the minds of men -- as if every bit of the advertising Western man is subject to was all devoted to Islam, to Muhammad and to his Companions. And this strange, fascistic, Total Explanation of the Universe, with its accompanying Scapegoat for Everything (the Infidel), has a strange appeal for the psychically and economically marginal, for Islam is now the vehicle to express alienation, hatred of The System, Capitalism, The Man, Amerika with a "k," and so on.
And Da'wa is supplemented through the weapon of childbirth -- demography as destiny. While the Infidel population increases at the rate of 1 1/2% in Europe, the Muslim population increases at the rate of 7 1/2% -- or five times the Infidel rate. Figure out how long it will be before first France, then Holland, then England and Germany, will have 30% or 40% or 50% Muslims -- and what will that mean? Little wonder that so many Europeans come to this website, and have taken to reprinting both articles and postings from it, on websites in French, or Dutch, or Swedish.
What is one to make of such phrases as Mr. MacEoin has allowed himself – a “cesspit of racism” etc. Charitably, one could assume he is attempting to mimic what he takes to be, wrongly, the House Style. There is no House Style. But at least everyone who comes here long ago learned to see through the Muslim misuse of that all-purpose curse, “racism.”
Mr. MacEoin writes that "you need people like me to contribute to your discussions." Just who are "people like me"? And why, exactly, does Jihadwath need them? What is it Mr. MacEoin could so easily contribute, if only he felt like it, but now he doesn’t, because this website is full of such crass and crude remarks, that it would simply be infra dig for the writer of the kind of books he now writes (for a list of those thrillers, google “Daniel Easterman”) to stoop to such pandering to popular and vulgar prejudice. Thank God someone is not letting the side down.
Well, it IS actually a problem with this website that the comments don't always live up to the standard set by Spencer's and Hugh's examples. It may in the long run also be an obstacle that keeps us from being linked to by major news companies. It can't be solved until Jihad Watch gets more funding, at can pay for moderation. I'm pretty sure neither of you have the time to do so now.
Hugh- Superb! The variety of commentary keeps the site from being boring. Yet, there should be some self-moderation in rhetoric and vocabulary, which is, as Ali Dashti has pointed out, "an obstacle to being linked to major news companies."
However, if all the posts were as long and erudite as are Hugh's, this site would begin to resemble an academic journal which would be a definite turn off to those that have neither language skills nor the interest to delve into long passages with allusions to people and places of which they know not. A "more popular" balance should be sought to include passages and commentary by all that would choose to post; but I do agree that sometimes the rhetoric, vocabulary, and the practice of cut and paste of long passages is problematic for which a solution should be sought.
I would like to comment upon what Hugh has written. He has (once again) hit the nail on the head in pointing out what it is that draws so many of us to this site. On the positive side, it is the fact that there is such a wealth of information, not scattered, but concentrated, coming together in the same place from all over the world, pouring light upon one of the major issues of our times. On the negative side, we come here because it is one of the few places where such information is reported at all...in such a way that the "key question" is addressed at all.
Hugh is right upon another point, and this is much more personal...
I am a Frenchman, and I discovered this site accidentally about a year ago...and reading its contents was like being given oxygen. I suppose that, as Hugh says, most people reading this site are Americans, and certainly an overwhelming majority are English speakers (English, Australians, etc...). But I am a continental European, and while this site has frequent postings about Europe, what most of you do not realize is that very little of what YOU read on this site, even about Europe, is almost never reported in Europe's MSM. Let me give you an example. We are all familar with the case of Theo van Gogh. Well, here in France, this sharia killing was barely reported, and few of my neighbors and colleagues are aware that this happened. It was not discussed in the media in any meaningful way. When it was, the conversation turned almost instantly to "xenophobia", and "racism". You in America often complain about the American media...but you have no idea how GOOD you have it over there. The French media is Soviet...important news never reported...what news is reported is hopelessly slanted...there is nothing like Fox News in France, no papers or magazines that dissent from the government line...and don't forget that many French people do not have access to Internet, and there is only a very small "blog culture".
The point is, that for a European like me, this site is one of our only connections to the "real world"...the only place where we can see, written in black and white, what is going on BOTH HERE, and elsewhere.
Yes, Hugh writes eloquently about the collapse of European culture. With all, and I mean ALL, respect to Hugh...it's one thing to write about it...it's quite another thing to live it...to see your culture, your history, your civilisation, disappearing before your eyes...and for what?
Day by day, slowly, before my eyes, my country, France, is ceasing to exist, and is being replaced by the most alien, aggressive, backward belief system...being taken over, man by man, family by family, in the hideous apartment blocks that ring all of France cities, by a population whose belief system permits them to look at us, the French, with only the deepest contempt, and yes, hatred. And yet, with your American French jokes aside, France was one of the glories of the world, one of the greatest of civilisations.
And don't forget...there, but for the grace of God, will go America one day.
There is no independent press, no independent thinking, in Europe any more. Americans must once and for all drop your idea of "Europe" as it was from 1945 to 2000. That Europe is gone forever. France, and all of Europe, is sinking into the dark abyss of Islam...from which no civilization has ever re-emerged.
Hugh is right, we are changing the way we live...slowly, in small increments. I live in a large French city. I no longer leave my home on the week-ends, except for Sunday morning. From Friday night until Sunday morning, the streets of the biggest French cities do not belong to the French. Sunday afternoon the shift occurs again, and we hand our streets back to the alien population for a few hours. Few of my neighbors leave their homes either. Or they go to their country houses...that way they don't have to admit so readily that they are changing the way they live. We have modified our lives, our shopping habits, our social habits, to adapt ourselves to this new reality. We never shop on the week-ends any more...we organize everything so that we will not have to stare the new reality in the face. I find myself having thoughts like "So this is how the Christians in Constantinople must have felt"...I realize that I am living in the new Alexandria. We cannot send our children to public schools. We all know why we are doing it, but none of us will talk about it. That's racist, you see.
While some complain about the "content" of the replies on this site...I think of how when I drive out of my city, and into any other French city, I see hideous concrete block after hideous concrete block, with each apartment adorned with a satellite dish, and I think of what "news", what "information" is pouring into those rooms, and into the heads in those rooms...what is the "content" of those media outlets. One should worry far more about that than about some over the top statements found at dhimmiwatch.
As a Brit, I would be interested to know how many regular posters are American, how many from the UK or other 'Anglosphere' countries and how many from Europe.
(Note that I refuse to see the UK as part of Europe!)
I'm not sure how easy it would be to collect this data. My feeling is that if it is mainly Americans then it is preaching to the choir, but if there are any French people who are being convinced by the high quality of debate, then that would be a real achievement.
Interestd:
Look above for an answer to your question...
Pelayo
Seems my post crossed with yours - good to hear from a Frenchman, and I'm very sorry to hear how things are there.
Excellent rejoinder there Hugh.
This site is invaluble. The posts, many of the comments, just awesome.
Keep up the good work. Also, I suggest setting up a paypal a/c so that at l;east some of us can contribute directly to this site. Heck, I mean I spend more time here in a day than on cable tv.
Dear Voletti:
Please look to the left side of the Jihad Watch page, and you will see a Paypal link.
And your donation is much appreciated!
Many thanks
Robert Spencer
Pelayo.
What you say of life in the French cities is interesting to me.
I tried to educate my sister to the horror of Islam some days ago and quoted the figure's that I picked up somewhere, that France has the largest population of Muslims in Europe. She sighed impatiently and said it's only 4% as if that was nothing, I Tell you this because she is now travelling to rural France regularly to visit her husbands parents who have retired there from the UK. She and her inlaws will probably not see what you see and herein lies the problem, unless it's living literally next door, you don't see it and when it is next door and has grown large enough tom no longer be dismissedn, it is so overwhelming that only then does the insecurity arise and the gag of "racist" tag, or fear of violence is what keeps the knowing silent.
excuse typo's... tom no longer be dismissedn,
to no longer be dismissed
Interestd:
Thanks...so am I. But don't worry...our heroic leaders, Jacques and Tony respectively, are taking care of things...pampering the "clandestines" who trek through France and line up to get under trains and into trucks to make it over to blessed Albion...swelling the Muslim population on your scepter'd isle.
Happy Christmas...while you still have it...
True Brit,
The problem with the numbers is that nobody knows what they are. Census numbers in France do not have any information about race, or about religion, so nobody knows how many people, from what religions, are actually here. We don't want any racist questions do we? I have dug up sources from 1987 which say that there are "5 million" Muslims in France...I have dug up sources which claim the same number in 2004. What, no change in 17 years? So among my friends, the number "5 million" has become a code word for us, to signify any government peddled (dis)information.
But what you say is true...there are two Frances. If you site down with pencil and paper and calculator and a protractor, it is possible to design your life here in such a way so that you can comfortably insulate yourself from the wolf that is growling at the door. And if you succeed at it, then France can be truly wonderful. But as the years go by, fewer and fewer of us are able to do that...it gets harder by the month. But yes, you can readily enjoy the good life in the French countryside, imagine that nothing has changed...I am sure that the patricians of ancient Rome did something similar as the barbarians slowly tightened the noose around the major cities of the Roman Empire...but it's those who live in the cities and who do not have country homes who have to sit down and re-organize their lives in such a way as to not have to face the reality...to take steps to make sure that you can shop without fear of being robbed...or just being pushed in the store...of carefully calculating how far you can walk in order to avoid the hell of public transport, of not visiting friends who live in certain neighbourhoods, of choosing your doctors according to where they practice, etc...
I love going to the countryside, who doesn't? There we can find the France that we all know and love...but for how long?
Hi Pelayo!
I spent a month in France this summer. I went for a walk in a park in Paris, with my infant son... I don't the name of the park, unfortunatlely. As the sun started to set I looked around and suddenly noticed two large gangs of Arab-looking young men, walking quickly and looking at me very directly.
It was a frightening thing. I don't remember Paris being this way, but I hadn't been there for over a decade. All I can say is that I suddenly felt just like I did when I lived in the West Bank and the sun started to set.
So when you say "...it's those who live in the cities and who do not have country homes who have to sit down and re-organize their lives in such a way as to not have to face the reality...to take steps to make sure that you can shop without fear of being robbed, " I believe you! It's real.
There has to be a solution for this problem. I hope it's a peaceful one.
The thing that gets me about Mr. MacEoin's flamboyant exit is that he chose to do so in such an extravagant and self righteous fashion. He made his final decision by his own admission, after reading the thread featuring the story of the Italian School which tried to accommodate Muslim pupils by substituting the name "Jesus" in traditional choir text.
Admittedly, there were some off color comments which were stinging in their opinion. But I think overall, they were not that, to employ the much over-exaggerated term, "Hateful" at all. Merely opinionated and of course some superficially biased.
If that's enough to drive Mr. MacEoin away, then every blog is off limits, because all allow opinion to be stated and opinions, comes from flawed humans. Almost all blogs have to deal with their share of bias, racism, bad manners and ignorance. Also present is enlightened summary, insight and perspective. So to brand a Jihad Watch undesirable because it allows people to essentially be people and state what it is that they are really thinking, is immature and snobby.
Considering the commendable temperance of the vast majority of JW posters who don’t intend to be deliberately offensive and those who are simply not, I wonder if you have you ever been to the many Islamic websites where beheading videos are celebrated and the WTC massacre is laughed at in the threads?
It is my opinion that your challenge to set an example for the Muslims is noteworthy. But why must multiculturism always be a one-way street? Muslim's are not our playthings being trained under our watchful eye. They are human beings, who are perfectly capable of making decisions of their own. If you haven’t noticed Mr. MacEoin, they are seemingly unwilling to accept any example we offer, whether ignorant or enlightened for fourteen centuries, so your point is reactionary and excuses their serious shortcomings by placing the burden of responsibility solely on us.
My question to the good author, scholar and translator is what do you think of such emotional issues as Italians being forced to essentially censor their own religious and cultural heritage under the yoke of insane multicultural posturing pending their Islamification? Are we allowed to "Gripe" about it? I mean, in the end if demographics persist, we are going to be a hybrid or extinct culture. Should we smile while we are being spit on, just shut up and take it? Yes, that earns respect. Many will want to join a club which won’t even defend itself.
Do you feel threatened by the real feelings and thoughts of your fellow countrymen as well as other worldwide posters (not just you presumptuous jibe at America), as expressed here? Or would you rather prefer more of the erudite subtler forms of that supremely grotesque word, "Racism", which has morphed into something often bearing no relationship to the objects of its application, as demonstrated by your wielding of it in a grand exit.
Mr. MacEoin, multiculturism shoved down the throats of a civilization, forcing it to take a back-seat to its own achievements and heritage, is the ultimate form of civilizational genocide and Racism. Do you prefer us to be happy about it?
In doing some research about you, it is clear that you are drawn to public commentary, as indicated by your frequent letters to the UK Guardian. In one you state the following:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1111545,00.html
"If she were a Jew, a Sikh, or a Baha'i, which state might she expect to protect her beliefs: France or a Muslim country?"
I don't know if you've been reading the papers sir in those ivory towers, but France IS becoming a Muslim country as evidenced by a stunning array of evidence such as genital mutilations, gang rapes, uncontrolled Mosque and "Islamic Cultural Center" construction for a population of some 5 million Muslims and over 800 city-suburb police "No-Go zones".
You also state:
"The headscarf move is a sensible school uniform measure designed to stop the French school system from becoming the Northern Irish nightmare I was taught in. **Multiculturalism** gets you Northern Ireland: integration gives you tolerance and the rule of law for everyone."
I agree with you in principle. I am for banning headscarves in the schools as well, but not only because they are a symbol of Islamism and repression of women, but because I fear the psychological effects it is having on Western societies. For Muslims it is empowering, for us it is a raw sign of our demise and honestly speaking, banning it without immigration reform will be useless.
If we in the West did not have such a huge, monolithic presence of Muslims in Europe and America etc, headscarf’s would not be a cause for concern as a tiny number of Muslims expressing themselves as they please would not have such drastic implications.
But your misuse of the word "Integration" as opposed to correct word, "Assimilation", troubles me as much as your tossing off your "racist" charge. All Muslims are integrating into Western society, integrating their cultural and religious norms into our existing system. This is why they are now hip to the multicultural lingo and publicly assert that they accept "Integration" but demand, without "Assimilation" while they "Dialogue" (hudna?) with the West. What is needed is assimilation, becoming E pluribus unum, a part of the whole, not separate from it.
The message of Muslims in the West is that of a confident belligerent presence determined to impose their will upon the lot of us. Not all do, but that is the essence of Islam. Its history clearly indicates this fact. As Mr. Fitzgerald said, no civilization once immersed in its grasps has ever recovered speaks volumes to you asserted "offence" to the many who voice frustration and anger over the helplessness of our present condition as documented here in these archives.
I can say that as a horror novelist, a scholar who was silenced by powerful forces within the shady Islamic intellectual community and a translator of various works of the Baha'i faith your story is interesting.
Is it true that you became a Baha'i in North Ireland around 1965 and quickly emerged as a Baha'i youth leader?
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/MacEoin.htm
Although you stated at Jihad Watch "I am not a Muslim and do not hold a brief for Islam." as I understand it, Baha’i has its foundations in Islam.
http://www.bahai.org/article-1-3-0-7.html
If such is the case, your multicultural "Northern Ireland nightmare" as you stated, can also be taken as an offensive statement by many under the ideology of multiculturalism and your omission of your involvement with a Muslim based belief system, if true, seems disingenuous and itself biased.
Thank you.
Hi Border Collie!
...The scene that you described happens to me on an almost daily basis...As for women in France, I think it would be a safe bet to say that personal safety is one of their everyday concerns, and most French women have to be very careful about where they go and how they get there.
We've been looking for a solution for years...Just last week a band of "jeunes" (for the uninitiated, that's the official French code word) stabbed another "jeune" to death...not such big news, but this happened right on the Champs Elysees...just steps from the Arc de Triomphe. This was on a Saturday night. Like I said, I think the only people around were gangs of "jeunes" and some befuddled foreign tourists who thought that they were in Paris, not Casablanca...
Is there a solution? The only one I can think of is to flee to the United States...
Andrew,
Spot on!!! Thanks for the brilliant posting!
Hi, Pelayo:
I just wanted to say that your first post under this article was both thoughtful and illuminating. Its not an easy thing to read, because one can see the truth in what you say.
You are, of course, correct that it is one thing to hear or read about what is happening in much of Europe (which is depressing enough), but quite another thing to actually live it, as you are. I am sure there are still many French people (and visitors to France) who would look at the surface veneer of every day life when sitting in some Parisian cafe, and upon seeing this site would think that we all are engaging in hyperbole when we talk about the threat to the West from Islamization. I truly hope that it does not take some traumatic event to wake those people up, but I am not hopeful. From where I stand, it still seems that more French people(and perhaps Europeans, generally) see America as more of a threat than Islam.
I fear that France may be too far gone down the path of that "alien, aggressive, backward belief system," as you put it, to recover any of its former status in any of our lifetimes. I can only hope the rest of Europe finds a way to avoid becoming a haven for those seething with Islamic-inspired hatred and contempt for non-Muslims.
MacEoin posts in his farewell address: "I thought this would be a good place for intelligent, critical discussion of Islam, but have found it and JihadWatch a cesspit of racist, uninformed, and grossly one-sided diatribes. When someone like Sinbad makes intelligent and thoughtful suggestions, he is answered, not by reasoned discourse, but by a most unpleasant series of sneering abuse."
I took the opportunity to return to Mr. Sinbad's "intelligent and thoughtful" remarks, and they opened as such:
"So they gave Muslim pupils the option of not using Jesus's name on a Christmas carol - gee whizz we're one step closer to armageddon..obviously. Everyone rush out and stock up on lots of tinned food."
What, really, is one to make of THESE remarks - "sneering abuse" or "intelligent and thoughtful suggestions"? Pardon me for saying this, but I find it intellectually dishonest, if not laughable, to complain about "sneering abuse" while defending and resorting to it in the same breath.
MIKE, Good job.
I also thought his choice of poster "Sinbad" as a cause celebre was strange. It was the following comment by "Sinbad" which I personally found condescending the moment he posted it, though I declined to comment on it:
"I think it's easy for people who remain within their own closed circles to imagine all sorts of fantastically terrible things about people who are different."
Sounds like a variation of the usual PC, multicultural mantras that have resulted in the subversion of an entire generation being peddeled by him.
If that is not offensive and insulting, I don't know what is.
This is what "Dr." Denis MacEoin champions?
Thanks, Andrew - and thanks for your reasoned and articulate post, as well.
I agree with you that his choice of Sinbad as a "cause-celebre" was a poor one at best. I will say this - and I have a university-level education myself - a college degree may buy you knowledge, but it doesn't necessarily buy you the faculties to put it to use. There's little if nothing more underwhelming than someone throwing their academic credentials around the way Mr. MacEoin did.
Oh Pelayo,
Your words make my heart ache
for a nation that soon, it seems,
will lose its dreams of liberty,
for those who cannot live life
to its fullest measure,
for the true treasure in creation
is the wellspring that freedom brings.
Be brave, stand up for what you believe
and know that you are not alone
in this dark time of the awe of mohammed,
write more about your life in france
so we can better understand
what lies in store
for those who chose
the tolerance of islam's intolerance,
the dance of death.
MIKE
Yes, ditto that in the underwhelmed department.
It seems appropriate MacEoin would unleash a full 'academic credentials' salvo against those who he himself considers intellectually inferior as implied in his statement. The epitome of arrogance and self importance.
the poetess
I find this pasage of your poem the most poignant:
"write more about your life in france
so we can better understand
what lies in store
for those who chose
the tolerance of islam's intolerance,
the dance of death."
How true indeed.
If you ask me, Denis MacEeoin and Sinbad are one and the same person. It's not too difficult to log in under two separate user names, and lets look at the evidence:
Both shared the same opinions on the subject being discussed, both posted in the same link at similar times and both indent their paragraphs identically. Furthermore, the "racist" postings in that thread were not as objectionable as some others have been in other recent threads, none of which were commented on by Mr MacEoin at the time. Maybe the objection actually was that Sinbad's (Mr MacEoin's) comments came under fire, and it was this that he found particularly objectionable. Finally, Sinbad came back quickly a second time to defend his arguments, and after that did not, but lo and behold, Mr MacEoin then very suddenly appeared for Sinbad's... oops, I meant Mr MacEoins coup de grace.
Regardless of whether my nice little conspiracy theory is true or not (and I accept that I might be getting paranoid in my old age), I fail to see why Mr MacEoin's contributions are invaluable to this website, when he cannot even distinguish between race and ideology. One would have thought that that little confusion would have been cleared up in a freshmans course, but instead somehow remained unchallenged all the way through his degree and PHD. His lecturers must have been Islamic.
Next, I thought I would give my opinion into the posting debate, as I feel that this issue is particularly important. Ali Dashti's observation about this website missing out on media coverage as a result of certain types of postings, although unpleasant, is certainly true. And without doubt, the most important thing is to ensure that as many people as possible (especially in Europe and America) find out as quickly as possible, the threat that Islam poses to the West today, and that time is running out.
I would suggest then, that perhaps a chat room or another postings board be set up for those who wish to use more colourful language, or for those who wish to merely let off steam (and who here doesn't at times feel frustrated at the actions of some politicians with which the word "stupidity" doesn't even begin to describe).
For it is mainly the way things are said which is the issue here, and not the arguments themselves, and many posts, with just a bit of "fine tuning" in the language, while still keeping the basic arguments, could easily then cross the line into what could be given media exposure. Such posts should then be sent to the "official" comments page with the articles. And it must not just be academics like Hugh either, with their insightful articles, who should do this as many others still have very good points to make.
I would be interested to hear what others think of this very important issue.
Oh gosh... we've upset a Leftist intellectual! What have we done?!!
I really don't hold with the idea of anti-islamic postings being racist.
For example, the Jews and Sikhs are born into their religion and they come from specific parts of the world; neither do they convert. So to say you hate "Jews" is by and large a racist statement because not anybody can be a Jew, and it's quite clear you are talking about a very clear cut group of people.
But then, who and what is a Muslim? Who and what is a Christian? When Heavy Metal or Punk bands, or Occultists or even Muslims insult Christians, it is clear that the target of their ire are conservative church-goers (like me) and the Christian establishment. I think they are wrong but I know they are not racists. Do I think that their hatred and scorn should be illegal? No, not at all. Christianity is a very robust religion - we can take it. Christianity is mature enough to accept it and debate it.
So, what or who is a Muslim? A blue eyed Bosnian? An Indonesian? An African? A Western convert? An Indian? --- A Muslim can be anybody, anybody can become a Muslim, anybody can become a non-Muslim. So to be nageative about "Muslims" isn't racist at all.
Do I hate Jihad? - Yes.
Do I hate the many social problems that Islamic communities always cause? - Yes.
Do I hate the social injustices that are part and parcel of Islam? - Yes.
Do I hate Muslims? - Well, yes, I must do.
I know what your thinking, if I am a Christian why do I hate? Yes you are right, and that is between me and God I suppose. But the important question for this debate is: am I a racist for having this hatred?
I am white, but my best friend is Indonesian and my wife is Indian. So how on earth am I a racist? Besides, as I have touched upon already, Muslims are not a race. They are not even a single ethnic group. Look at Suni and Shia Islam, and how followers of these sects are so often at each others throats. Indeed these sects were born out of internal conflict.
I hate Muslims/Islam like I hate Communists or Satanists - because they are all negative in outlook and such philosophies poison minds - unlike Sikhism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judeaism which I think are all mistaken, but are otherwise harmless. Let's face it, in this world almost all terrorists are Muslims. I think I could wait all my life to see the "Annimist Liberation Army", "Baptist Freedom Fighters" or "Taoist Liberation Organization" blow up a train in Madrid or kill thousands of people in New York - or anywhere. As for the next Islamic outrage, well, I will just pick up tomorrow's newspaper and find out how they have brightened up our world this week. Islam is not one of the world's "Great Religions". Great religions don't mouth off about holy war. Don't take my word for it, just read the Koran to see how bad it is.
Muslims are just like Communists, Nazis, or any group with a violent expansionist agenda - I really think I should be free to hate this as I please. And it really is "freedom" that we are talking about here.
For it is mainly the way things are said which is the issue here, and not the arguments themselves, and many posts, with just a bit of "fine tuning" in the language, while still keeping the basic arguments, could easily then cross the line into what could be given media exposure. Such posts should then be sent to the "official" comments page with the articles. And it must not just be academics like Hugh either, with their insightful articles, who should do this as many others still have very good points to make.
I would be interested to hear what others think of this very important issue.
Posted by: Amicus at December 9, 2004 06:38 PM
I think that whatever is necessary to promote and expand the reach of JihadWatch is what should be done. I won't deny that it is a cathartic experience to vent one's frustrations about Islam and muslims in a forum filled with like-minded sympathizers. This is a rare opportunity, as most internet forums are censored and under the control of the politically correct gestapo and thought police. It is not that I oppose debate with those who disagree; in fact, I enjoy the arguments as much as the venting.
It's a shame that the "media" would shun JihadWatch because of the comments. Public opinion is important; it motivates, impels, and effects major changes in the status quo.
I can't recall anyone here ever flatly stating: "I hate muslims." There is absolutely nothing "racist" about defending and trying to preserve one's culture and heritage. If this is racist, then muslims are the biggest racists in the world. Not only do they defend and maintain their culture and religion, they export it around the globe and DEMAND respect, appeasement, concessions, and special privileges from strangers in foreign lands. They have no qualms about declaring themselves and Islam superior whether they are in Islamic countries or Western countries. They become instant victims wherever they wander by making false accusations of persecution and "racism." Racism is not applicable to an ideology, but with the help of their useful idiot liberal allies, they empower themselves with that dreaded word: racism. It's a sure way to silence and destroy all who speak the truth. Too bad the eager beaver journalists in the all-powerful media can't whet their appetites for a little diversity of thought and opinion.
I want people everywhere to learn about Islam, to understand jihad, to realize the threats posed by this insidious ideology and its adherents. I want the truth to be told far and wide, reiterated constantly until it penetrates the minds of the deniers, and to hell with the apologists, appeasers, deniers, and obstructionists.
If that means comments must be self-censored or moderated, so be it.
I believe Mr. Mc Eoin has an obligation to continue supporting this site, if he means what he says about his concern about Islam, Jihad, and related matters (And any thoughtful comments, critical or sympathetic to the views of Robert or Hugh constitute support. Robert has made it clear many times that he simply looking for a place at the table of public dialogue; a place his opponents want to deny him). Mr. Mac Eoin seems to share the fundamental assumption that education about Islam is lacking and necessary to help us deal with some of the most grave public issues Western societies have ever faced. And, as Robert and Hugh have noted, much of the information, news and commentary presented here is not only lacking in the mainstream media, but excluded. Hence, Robert and Hugh (and others who post valuable information like Ali Dashti) need help to circulate this information and commentary. If one accepts these assumptions, (the shared concerns, the importance of the information and commentary, and the brute fact of exclusion from public dialogue) it follows that one has an obligation to support this site. That’s my argument. This, of course, does not imply that one always agrees with the commentary and analysis of Robert or Hugh, or other writers (and I do not count 'posters' like myself, as writers), nor the veracity or insights of the stories posted, or with the tone; but it does imply that one should support the site.
As far as the comments go, I agree with Ali Dashti that moderated comments would improve the credibility of the site; and I have no doubt Robert (and, perhaps, especially, Hugh, who routinely bequeaths in the ‘comments’ breathtaking, rich, informative essays that deserve a worldwide audience) agonize over lack of resources to provide a more fitting context for the articles and other contributions. But, I am absolutely convinced that they are doing the best they can, and they deserve thanks and appreciation for their efforts.
Also, anyone who has followed Hugh’s comments knows that he has embarked on a daring, relentless, grass roots project of informing, educating, advising, warning, that is embodied in such breadth in learning, insight, eloquence--the world has yet to know and appreciate the gold deposited in the mines that are the ‘comments’ of Jihad Watch (also available at nojihad.com)
One must expect some outrages in an unmoderated forum like this. I have been called ‘an idiot’, an ‘intellectual snob’, and on one occasion someone issued a veiled threat on my life (which I do not take seriously), not to mention your run of the mill ridicule and insults, pontificating, anger, and occasional expressions of hatred, threats and bigotry (but these are not the dominant themes of many, many threads). But, I continue posting, because I believe this site deserves support.
So, Mr. Mc Eoin, that’s my argument. Please continue to offer your comments, that, I presume, will aim at provoking critical thought, study, moral conscience, and the appreciation of values like freedom, creativity, and artistic expression, rather than running off in a crowd of dust, that will do nothing to better educate the audience here, or anywhere for that matter. Furthermore, e-mail colleagues and friends, and tell them there is something going on here that deserves a hearing and an informed, well-intentioned audience. JihadWatch is worthy of that, I believe, and, if you accept the assumptions above, you must confront the conclusion that you may have an obligation to offer it.
Susanp, will you please contact Susan-b?
Regarding the variety of comments here, a moderator would be the death of this site. If there are comments so far gone that they don't belong here, then it's easy to accept them as such and skip over them. Really, who cares? And if things go into the area of direct threats against individuals, well, that's a matter that comes to Spencer's attention straight away, which he deals with instantly. Yes, it's too bad he has to take time away from his work to deal with comments that could cause trouble with hizs work, but he does take care of it, and we are all the better off for it. Everything else, regardless, seems to stand, and free adults are able to take it for what it's worth. If Milton can agrue for free speech in the middle of a civil war, I think we can let comments go by simply becsue they lack fine tuning.
then again, anyone who comes here with a name like Amicus, well, it's hard not to like someone like that.
Susanp, will you contact susan-b please?
'Crowd of dust'. Jeeezzzz...
Dear Pelayo (Gothic name, is it not?)
You wrote:
"France, and all of Europe, is sinking into the dark abyss of Islam...from which no civilization has ever re-emerged . . . ."
Ah but they have! Viz. Spain, Israel--and was not part of your own france once under the rule of Caliph of Cordova?
What we need, what is needed, are men of the caliber of your Charels Martel, el Cid with his alliances of convenience to defeat an enemy that outnumbered his forces, and others determined to defeat the Saracen.
What you have give me (American) is hope and respect for what I once regarded as a dhimmified, cowardly France to be despised, its products boycotted. It is as always "who benefits?" that must be examined. I mean of course your politicians.
What can be done? What MUST be done? Look back into history. Far be it for me to suggest anything but a careful study of, and drawing parallels with, successes of the past.
We, who read Jihad Watch and post comments, are supposed to be unbiased? Are we to be arbiters of multiculturalism? If this were a site where Islam, jihad, and the islamization of the non-Islamic world were to be considered as an alternative to our (Western) cultural values, I would hardly waste my time here.
With all his credentials, Denis MacEoin appears to think that Islamic attack on our civilization will be fought with debate:
"My advice to most of those posting messages here is simple: learn something solid about Islam before you set yourselves up as judges and juries to condemn Muslims. Think hard about this: you need people like me to contribute to your discussions. Instead, you have alienated me and others like me. If this is the best the US has to offer in the debate about Islam, God help us all!"
Moreover, do we really have to go deeply into Islamic and Arabic studies before we can decide whether we want Muslims to rule us?
Was Charles Martel a koranic scholar? Did the defenders of Vienna against the Turks know all there was to know about the Koran, the Hadiths, and the subleties of sharia? Did Spain get freed from Islamic rule by clever debate from non-Islamic scholars schooled in Islamic scriptures?
Do we need people steeped in the Islamic scholarship to debate our Islamic enemy or could we settle for the unschooled who see the issues in black and white?
unicorn,
the learned professor certainly seem to think so. We need further proof apparently that something seriously wrong here.
By the way, check out more on Denis MacEoin:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole73.htm
I would love to know how an Irish youth discovered Baha'i in 1960's Ireland. How did it get there? Why would it appeal to Irish youth?
Could it be the traditional rooting for the underdog concept which in my opinion, the Irish are known for considering their history with regard to England.
Their early pagan beginings, perhaps have some significance, it is remarkable that St. Patrick achieved such success in spreading the gospel of Christ to the people of Ireland.
A reader seeking to evaluate Mr. Spencer's work is in effect confronted with a question about extremism. The question is, "Is the extremism Mr. Spencer sees in Islam's core really there, or is that extremism in fact mainly a quality of Mr. Spencer's interpretive lens?"
As this will be the initial question for many non-Muslims seeking quickly to evaluate whether Spencer's work is worth a second glance, I fear he does his own cause more ill than good in allowing a comments section too often containing immature, extremist words and rants against Islam. How many new visitors to the site will wrongly assume, despite Mr. Spencer's little disavowal paragraph at the beginning of the comments section, that it is Mr. Spencer's lens that is extreme, and how many will then never consider his work or the site again?
Mr. ed(ucational)
I respectfully disagree. Anyone visiting Jihad Watch can clearly see that the news stories Mr. Spencer links to are reports of events from around the world as seen through the lens of someone for sure, the local press. Certainly news streaming in worldwide is not his creation and provides a staging area from which people can formulate their own opinions as well as increase their awareness.
As for your comment, "...Mr. Spencer's little disavowel paragraph", that tone speaks to your obvious resentment of not the stories and facts featured here, but the person himself. Why?
I think you will notice sir, in that ivory tower, that all websites have similar disclaimers. Additionally, you seem to take as a forgone conclusion, that all comments here have no value, a very pompous attitude indeed. I suggest you read both the actual STORIES and the many very good INSIGHTS and CONTRIBUTIONS many here make.
Regards.
A bit of background on St. Patrick, Patron Saint of Ireland.
http://www.linkup-parents.com/stpatart.htm
Dear Andrew,
Thank you for the link to Denis MacEoin and Baha'i. It appears that he makes a hash out of whatever he gets into. Therefore, he could prove to be a liability rather than an asset in our struggle against Islam.
ed,
Your question "Is the extremism Mr. Spencer sees in Islam's core really there, or is that extremism in fact mainly a quality of Mr. Spencer's interpretive lens?"
The "extremism" is codified in Islamic scripture and turned into action by al Qaeda and like Islamic terrorists who refer to Koran and hadith to justify their deeds.
As to whether " . . . many non-Muslims seeking quickly to evaluate whether Spencer's work is worth a second glance . . . " will be put off by the "Comments Section," they apparently are not. The readership of this site is increasing as is participation with comments.
The comments often elucidate the points made by Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald. The insights offered by Pelayo into the Islamization of his country--France--are invaluable. Comments by UK, Canadian, Scandinavian, and other participants provide a wider view of the effects of Islamic attempts to subjugate the non-Islamic world.
There appears to be a tinge of jealousy in the attacks by academics on Mr. Spencer. He has achieved a popularity that has eluded them.
But then again, are academics, weighed down with scholarship and trammeled with "evenhandedness" and "fairness" in dealing with Islam and its jihad, as useful as those of clear mind whose ideas can be turned into action?
New here,
mmm
Question. Is it a true statement, to state that hard-wired into the Koran AND the Hadith are orders, commands, injunctions to kill non-muslim people? Unless the aforesaid non-muslim people do one of three things:
1. Surrender and become a Surrendered-person(Muslim).
2. Refuse to surrender and pay mafia-style protection money and also live a degraded existence.
3. Die.
Or do I misunderstand and have fallen into error?
Yours Stafford 1069