The final installment.
3. Go to the Original Sources.When you do debate with a Muslim make sure you are armed with all your references from the original Arabic sources. The major sources are all available in English, and are the Koran, the Sira or the Life of Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq, and the Hadith, the sayings and deeds of the Prophet and his companions. You must make the effort to familiarize yourself with these. Start with the Koran. It is not a very long text, about four hundred pages in the Penguin translation. Acquire at least four different translations, at least one of which should be by a Muslim. Yusuf Ali and, despite his name, Marmaduke Pickthall were Muslims, and their translations are easily available in paperbacks. At least one should be by someone whose mother tongue was Arabic, such as N.J.Dawood, an Iraqi scholar whose translation is quite readable. If you read French, I strongly advise you to acquire and read Regis Blachere’s translation - it has copious footnotes which reveal the opaqueness of the Holy text, and the grammatical errors of the original Arabic.
If you have read the Koran, you are already better informed of its contents than the majority of Muslims. Indeed, many Muslims have been genuinely surprised when I have apprised them of the verses preaching war, intolerance, hatred of Jews and Christians, misogyny, cruel punishments, etc. When you do read the Koran, read it with a highlighter in hand, and mark or underline the passages which preach intolerance, or which reveal injustice, cruelty and violence, absurdities, insults to women, contradictions, anti-Semitism, homophobic attitudes, superstitions, and, to be scrupulously fair, passages which teach morally acceptable principles. Someone has already undertaken just such a task at:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html. Our diligent skeptic found 511 passages of injustice, 384 of intolerance, 320 of cruelty and violence, 46 insults to women and just 60 passages of morally acceptable principles.Here are some anti-Jewish sentiments from the Koran:
II.61: ….Wretchedness and baseness were stamped upon them (that is, the Jews), and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah’s revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.
IV.44-46: Have you not seen those who have received a portion of the Scripture? They purchase error, and they want you to go astray from the path.
But Allah knows best who your enemies are, and it is sufficient to have Allah as a friend. It is sufficient to have Allah as a helper.
Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings, and say, ‘We hear and we disobey’, and ‘Hear without hearing,’ and ‘Heed us!’ twisting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said, ‘We have heard and obey,’, or ‘Hear and observe us’ it would have been better for them and more upright. But Allah had cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.IV.160-161: And for the evildoing of the Jews, We have forbidden them some good things that were previously permitted them, and because of their barring many from Allah’s way.
And for their taking usury which was prohibited for them, and because of their consuming people’s wealth under false pretense. We have prepared for the unbelievers among them a painful punishment.IX.29-31: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture [Jews and Christians] as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah has forbidden by His Messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute [poll-tax] readily, and are utterly subdued.
The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” and the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Those are the words of their mouths, conforming to the words of the unbelievers before them. Allah attack them! How perverse they are!
They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah, and so too the Messiah son of Mary, though they were commanded to serve but one God. There is no God but He. Allah is exalted above that which they deify beside Him.IX.34: O you who believe ! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings of a painful doom
V.63-64: Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their evil-speaking and devouring of illicit gain? Verily evil is their handiwork.
The Jews say, “Allah’s hands are fettered.” Their hands are fettered, and they are cursed for what they have said! On the contrary, His hands are spread open. He bestows as He wills. That which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the arrogance and unbelief of many among them. We have cast enmity and hatred among them until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they light the fire of war, Allah extinguishes it. They hasten to spread corruption throughout the earth, but Allah does not love corrupters!V.70-71: We made a covenant with the Israelites and sent forth apostles among them. But whenever an apostle came to them with a message that did not suit their fancies, some they accused of lying and others they put to death. They thought no harm would follow: they were blind and deaf. God is ever watching their actions.
V.82: Indeed, you will surely find that the most vehement of men in enmity to those who believe are the Jews and the polytheists.
V.51: O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who takes them for friends is one of them.
V.57: O you who believe! Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scripture [Jews and Christians] before you, and of the disbelievers, as make jest and sport of your religion. But keep your duty to Allah of you are true believers.
V.59: Say: O, People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians]! Do you blame us for aught else than that we believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you are evildoers?
V.66: ….Among them [Jews and Christians] there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.
XXXIII.26: He brought down from their strongholds those who had supported them from among the People of the Book [Jews of Bani Qurayza ] and cast terror into their hearts, so that some you killed and others you took captive.
V.60: Say:‘ Shall I tell you who will receive a worse reward from God ? Those whom [i.e. Jews] God has cursed and with whom He has been angry, transforming them into apes and swine, and those who serve the devil. Worse is the plight of these, and they have strayed farther from the right path.’
Then pass onto the oldest source on the life of the Prophet, the Sira by Ibn Ishaq as quoted by Ibn Hisham. It is also available in an English translation. Again read it, with the same skeptical attitude and a highlighter in hand. It makes for very depressing reading. The biography is full of violence, cruelty, intolerance and anti-Semitism.
Here are some of the passages from the Sira revealing Muhammad’s hatred of the Jews :1. “Kill any Jews that falls into your power” said the Prophet: p.369
2. The killing of Ibn Sunayna, and its admiration leading someone to convert to Islam: p.369
3. The killing of Sallam ibn Abu’l –Huqayq: pp.482-483
4. The assassination of Ka‘b b.al-Ashraf ,who wrote verses against Muhammad: pp.364-369
5. The raid against the Jewish tribe of the Banu‘l-Nadir, and their banishment. pp.437-445
6. The extermination of the Banu Qurayza, between 600-800 men. pp.461-469
7. The killing of alYusayr. pp.665-666
Finally, pass onto the Hadith or Traditions, which are also, fortunately, available in English. The collection by Bukhari, who died in 870 C.E., is the best place to start. The Hadith or the Books of Tradition are a collection of sayings and doings attributed to the Prophet and traced back to him through a series of putatively trustworthy witnesses. Apart from what Muhammad did and enjoined these traditions include what was done in his presence that he did not forbid, and even the authoritative sayings and doings of the companions of the Prophet. These traditions serve as the theoretical basis of the Sharia or Islamic Law, and hence of Islam itself. Here you will find all that you suspected about Islam but were not sure where to look for. Jihad, anti-Semitism, misogyny, and the usual litany of violence and cruelty. Bukhari’s collection is highly regarded by the Muslims.Thus furnished with precise references to and quotes from the Koran, the Sira and the Hadith, you are well-equipped to criticise Islam, and ready to debate any Muslim.
When I read the Qu'ran and saw that Muhammad seemed to think that the Christian Trinity was God, Jesus, and Mary and that the Jews thought Ezra the son of God in the sense that Christians saw Jesus as the son of God, I knew I was reading something by someone who just didn't know the truth--hence that it couldn't have been given by God (I know Christianity too well, and, much as I think it a pity so many Jews don't know Messiah, I've gotten along well with them, and know them too well, too). As for Mary (Miriam) the mother of Jesus being the same as Miriam the sister of Moses, maybe the notes given by Pickthall and Yusuf Ali about it really meaning "kinswoman" or "descendant" can be given something of the benefit of the doubt--although I doubt it.
I'm reading through Rodwell's translation of the Qu'ran--since my Yusuf Ali seems to have disappeared. Also, I'm going to visit the hadith sites and try to find Ibn Ishaq (is this the Muslim form of Isaac?) on line.
Also, if anyone out there knows both Syriac and German well, I'd appreciate comment on Christoph Luxenberg's book.
One warning: Do not try this in a Muslim country. You have good chance of being jailed - if you are lucky - or attacked for blasphemy/disrespect toward Islam/Mohammed.
Based on my observations in Saudi Arabia, they do not want you digging too deeply into the historical underpinings of Islam.
Kepha1,
I'm glad you can see the falsehoods in the Koran. In order that you not be considered a hypocrite by the Muslims you debate, why don't you take a look at the annotated Bible at the same site as the annotated Koran mentioned by Ibn Warraq (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html). Then, make sure you have iron-clad and reasonable responses to the injustice, absurdity, cruelty and violence, contradictions, intolerance, misogyny, etc. of your own holy book. You should make sure your house is built on a firm foundation before you go playing the big bad wolf.
The problem is belief based on faith. That is why nothing you say to the Muslim will change his mind and nothing you read in the annotated Bible, I suspect, will change yours. A scientific epistemology is the only firm foundation for evaluating truth claims. It is what led Ibn Warraq, I believe, to reject Islam.
Very interesting articles. It leads me to wonder why an all-powerful and all-knowing God would choose to reveal such an important message to mankind in the, even then, relatively little known and little understand language of classical Arabic. Especially as there were so many non-Arabic centres of population elsewhere in the world at that time; huge centres in the cases of India and China. And how were the populations of America, Australia and large parts of Africa supposed to get the message when, as an all-knowing God would have been fully aware, they were to remain in isolation from the rest of the world, including teachers of classical Arabic, for many centuries to come.
It’s like trying to imagine an all-powerful and all-knowing UN Secretariat making all its important announcements in Polish, in the form of oral recitations to some merchant in Krakow and with the expectation that this merchant will pass the contents of these annoucements on to the rest of mankind. Perhaps it’s hardly surprising that after 1400 years the Koran’s message has still only got through to 20% of the world’s population and that most of them are totally confused by it.
The Koran is nothing but Hate Speech. It should be banned.
Well, Mr. Bristic, I'd like to respond on behalf of Kepha - whatever one may like and dislike of some Biblical passages (all, I note, in the OT, not the NT, unless some moron's trying the old 'Luke' thing), no one today outside a tiny tiny percentage of real lunatics believes in carrying them out. I invite you to contrast that to the islamic world, where it occurs about every day and twice on Fridays. Of a choice of allies in the war against ignorance, there is no comparison.
Geoff
Dear Kepha1,
You said you were going to look for Ibn Ishaq's Life of Muhammad online. I don't think it is online since it was translated by A. Guillaume in 1955--meaning its copyright has not expired yet so it is not public domain yet. Here you can find the book for under 30 USD:
http://www3.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&id=811661&isbn=0196360331&location=10000&thetime=20041211151019&author=&title=&state=AK
Other book comparison sites are: bestbookdeal.com, campusi.com. Else, you could just go to Amazon.com or bn.com, but I suggest comparison shopping first.
I checked out the references to this passage by Ibn Warraq:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html. Our diligent skeptic found 511 passages of injustice, 384 of intolerance, 320 of cruelty and violence, 46 insults to women and just 60 passages of morally acceptable principles.
I offer this updated paragraph instead. Note that the counts are different, AND the URL is different:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html. Our diligent skeptic found 516 passages of injustice, 386 of intolerance, 323 of cruelty and violence, 46 insults to women, 9 of wicked family values, and just 62 passages of morally acceptable principles.
Here are the URL's for verification:
516 of injustice
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/inj/long.html
386 of intolerance
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html
323 of cruelty and violence
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html
46 of insults to women
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html
9 of wicked family values
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/fv/long.html
62 of morally acceptable principles
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/good/long.html
About Christopher Luxenburg: Ibn Warraq tells me that he is just finishing up the touches on the English transl. Whether there is publishing opportunities is anyone's guess. We await hopefully.
There is an extensive review in an online journal. It is in "Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies" and if you do a search in google or whatever, with Hugoye as your term, it will be on the first page. The review was from July 2003.
Hugh Bristic and Geoff:
Thanks for your concern for my soul. I freely confess to being one of the "loonies" who takes seriously everything in the Bible, even though I might also think that, since the coming of M'shiach and the end of the israelite polity, there are a number of points of the Bible's civil and cermonial law that are not applicable--although don't expect me to publish or buy a Bible without those verses. Indeed, I believe that persons who violate the image of God via murder, curse the parents who gave them life, or choose crime as a profession are indeed worthy of death--albeit we have governments to see to that sort of thing; we have no warrant to be private executioners a la the Muslim who killed Theo van Gogh.
Secular liberals have their foibles, too (you sound like one). They can cry rivers of tears for a proven axe-murderer on a Texas death row, but after defining humanity only in terms of DNA and physical form, think nothing of destroying a merely inconvenient unborn child as "tissue". They claim to be all for liberty, but endorse Rousseau, who taught that the "General Will" (whatever that is) means that people should be compelled to be happy. Thirty years ago, the worst thing they could call someone was "fag"; today they're all gushy over gay rights. Maybe if I live long enough, they'll approvingly cite Old Mo as a fine historical example of one who enjoyed the sexual pleasure to be found in a 9-year-old girl.
Maybe no-one attacks secular liberal "morality" because there's nothing discernible to attack (after all, didn't Schlick, Schaechter, and Waismann tell you there's no way to get from the empirical "is" to the ethical "ought"?)
Don't worry. If any Muslim brings up the strong language about Oholah and Oholibah in Ezekiel, I can ask why they're still stuck in a kind of Victorian prudery--when Khomeini said it was OK to be, how did our Dutch friends put it, a "geiteneuker"?
One of the leitmotifs here is that a non-Muslim should not be labelled an Islamophobe for voicing some of the same sentiments about Islam as Muslims say. By the same rights, one should not count as anti-Jewish comments in the Qur'an about the Jews being under divine punishment. These merely echo statements made by many Jewish prophets concerning the Babylonian exile. Muhammad, of course, is depicted in the Qur'an as preaching during the later Roman exile, but many (not all!) of the verses reflect Biblical Jewish thought.
Moreover, it's important to note that the anti-Christian verses in the Qur'an are fewer and milder than the anti-Jewish verses, quite possibly because Muhammad (or the actual, non-mythic authors/editors of the now-traditional text) absorbed a certain amount of Christian anti-Judaism. Islam's version of supersessionism is surely descended from Christianity's. On the latter, see Supersessionism (a liberal Christian view) and Some of the Problems with DABRU EMET (an alternative Christian view).
NO NO NO No No-
You do not assume the level or a monomaniacal Absolutist and try to reason.
You fight them with your opposing vision of the Universe.
There is no interplay of thoughts with someone who is already Utterly Certain. They've already gotten the Answer, forever and ever,
about the Pirme Truth of Reality. There is nothing you can say to add to it (unecessary), subtract from it (a threat to the faith), or mollify (we'll do it ourselves, infidel).
Secure your own truths.
And simply say back to any Muslim disputants (those who might want to 'argue') what is unacceptable in you society, based on reason and law. Honor killings, murder of those who 'insult your faith', etc.
It won't be tolerated.
No argument. Forget quoting the Koran. They don't believe you. Stand up for what you believe.
We already know the 7th century no longer works.
Period.
Kepha1 wrote:
"I believe that persons who ... curse the parents who gave them life ... are indeed worthy of death."
Of course Kepha doesn't approve of vigilantes taking things into their own hands--that is what governments are for. Yikes! Does anybody not see the parallels between this sort of attitude and those of "moderate" Muslims who say that killing non-believers now is wrong because there is no caliphate to legally condone Jihad?
How about Leviticus 24:16, Kepha? "He who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him; the sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death." Note, please, that this applies to "sojourners" as well as "natives"--that means you goy!
Wouldn't this count as one of those "jots" and "tittles" of the law that Jesus did not mean to mess with? I mean, after all, the New Testament says that blasphemy against the holy spirit is unforgivable. Is this aspect of the law no longer applicable now that there is no "Israelite polity" or would you have me stoned, provided you could find an obliging state actor to take care of the messy details for you. I have well and truly blasphemed, many a time, and unrepentantly.
Please people, look carefully at who you are counting as your allies in this fight. When you have defeated the bigger evil, they may one day turn and devour you.