There are several reasons to doubt the contentions made by the jihadists in this article. One is the fact that long before September 11, there was abundant evidence that violent groups holding the Islamic jihad ideology had spread throughout the world. Another is that there is reliable evidence that they are present today in many more than 60 countries.
Aside from the merits or demerits of the question itself, leaving Iraq will not end the jihad, any more than going to Iraq started it. While it is true that jihadists point to Iraq or Afghanistan or the founding of Israel or the toppling of Mossadegh as the reasons why they are fighting, the nature and history of the jihad ideology make these claims historically preposterous. These are indeed tools of jihadist recruitment, and some have proved more effective than others. However, if one is taken away, another one will be found. The captors here indicate this by complaining that none of the Arab leaders are "truly Islamic." They thus indicate that their project, like that of other jihadists around the world, is not just to get the US out of Iraq, or the Jews out of Israel, or anything else but the restoration of the caliphate and Sharia.
For that very reason, a realistic appraisal of the jihad ideology also indicates that a long stay in Iraq for the US would most likely be counterproductive. The Wilsonian project of democratizing Iraq may somehow ultimately succeed, but the odds are prohibitive, and the January elections will not determine the outcome of the project as a whole. This will be a work of decades -- at least. Democracy in Iraq faces an obstacle far greater than those faced by post-World War II Germany and Japan: the vitality of political Islam, which has not been discredited or disavowed by any of the many Islamic groups in the country. This force can only be neutralized not by military might, but by a large-scale ideological effort that has not been undertaken, because the need for it has not been understood.
From the Deutsche Presse-Agentur (DPA), with thanks to Kemaste:
PARIS - An insurgent guarding two French hostages told them his group supported President George W. Bush in the US November election because his policies help Islamic extremism expand, the French daily Le Figaro reported Friday.Former hostage Georges Malbrunot, 41, told the paper that sometime between September 26 and October 15, he asked his guard if he wanted Bush or Democratic Party challenger John Kerry to win the US presidential election.
“We want Bush,” his guard told him. “We want Bush because with him, the American soldiers will stay in Iraq, and this way we will be able to expand.”
Malbrunot, a journalist employed by Le Figaro, said the guard also told him that the American attack on the Taliban regime in Afghanistan following the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States enabled Islamic extremism “to spread throughout the world”.
“We are now present in 60 countries around the world,” the hooded guard said. “And our aim is to overthrow Arab rulers and establish a caliphate from Andelusia to the borders of China.”...
Malbrunot said that there were repeated references among the kidnappers to “Sheik Osama” and that the group holding them had an Iraqi agenda” but also “an international and jihadist agenda”.
When he asked his guard what its priorities were, the man replied, ”There are two. Saudi Arabia, Egypt ... but we know all Arab leaders are traitors. None is truly Islamic.”
If so many of these Arab leaders are not "truly Islamic" and apparently haven't been for many years, why haven't these miscreants and their 'organisations' done something about it in those countries long before this?
So the Western world at fault for the ideologies of all these 'unbelieving Arab leaders'? Wow! The terrorist-insurgents give us so much power over their minds and abilities. How sad for them.
Ha ha ha ha!
The poor frenchmen, now having committed the sin of admitting the 'insurgency' is al-qaeda and bin laden inspired are now desperatley trying to atone and get back ionto the good books of the francodhimmi majority.
The terrorist scum sure as hell didn't want Bush to win. Just imagine having the US forces stay and push a free democratic election through? Just imagine staying on and sending this clear message that we'll bring the battle to the jihadis if necessary and that US forces aren't scared of the sight of blood?
D'ya seriously think an ayatollah would've wanted to take on a Reagan rather than a Carter in the white house? Do you seriously think a Bin laden wouldn't have preferred a clinton in the white house who was all content to shoot a few stray cruise misslies into empty afghan tents as response to bombings of US embassies and warships? Do you seriously think the terrorist insurgency supporting states - syria, saudi, jordan and Iran wouldn't have wanted a waffling, confused, wimpy, complaisant, prevaricating and less-than-firmly-principled Kerry (who was all too willing and waiiting to buckle under pressure from the UN, Russia and France)? And that over a faith-driven (professing faith in the G_d of Abraham, btw), resolute (almost bull-headed lessay) Bush who'd essentially told the UN, the EU and Russia to stick it up theirs if they didn't like it?
Don't gemme wrong. One may or maynot agree with Bush's domestic agenda - on gay marriage or social security for e.g. but on foreign policy, esp when contrasted with the 'vision' presented by Kerry, we know he was the best available this election.
Didn't ya all hear that massive sound of hot air escaping punctured balloons everywhere across europe and arabia on 3/nov? well, that was their fantasy giving way to reality. Its gonna happen more and more as the war proceeds into the next stage.
Islam and democracy are incompatible. Any person who follows the Qur'an (whether you call him Muslim or the politically correct term "Islamist" to appear as if you're making a distinction between "mainstream Islam" and "extremist Islam") necessarily believes that infidels must be killed, and that the "hypocrites" (peaceful Muslims who don't want to fight) are worse than kaffir. That's why Muslims are killing their own. Allah's Hell will freeze over and pigs will fly before there is democracy in any Muslim country.
"Iraq insurgents wanted Bush to win elections, say released French hostages"
Yeah, right. And I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
Happy Birthday Jesus~! Cant wait to see YOU walk on earth again~! for those who can....dont bother trying to convert Islam to Gentile or Gentile to Jew~~! Do not bother asking REAPer if our a wheat or weed? He works for an equal opportunity employer the GREAT I AM ...The Alpha the Omega.....He will not accept any more martyrs of this cause~! He knows whose filthy, righteous, true and Holy And Loved HIs Son enough Not to know TOO~! Happy Birthday King of the Jews~!
My Book: Revelations 22:11 For breaking the Keyoto Treaty - If they dont love Jesus! They dont deserve YOU~~!
Archanagelrpr, Happy Holy War - Breakin IN the New Year~!
The democracy in Iraq is a dream, and is very difficult, and I don´t know if it worths, but we don´t have to allow that islamists win, greetings
Merry Christmas to Allah- You can set up your business codes and legal infrastructure to keep the infidels out! Your people will prosper - no no more land, blood, oil for money - this is not even funny~! God's OWN Angel Doth Grim~!
I don't find it surprising at all that the muslim terrorists wanted Bush to win the election. Bush fits in perfectly with their profile of a perfidious western leader. Personally I also think he has done much more harm than good. Given that virtually no muslim regime has any respect for human rights, sadam probably wasn't that much worse that the rest. If it were up to me I would have let him go in and capture Kuwait and capture Saudi Arabia for all I care. Let the muslims fight amongst themselves if that's what they want. And don't come with that argument that they're now free, and how much of a tyrant sadam was. How free are they now? How free and safe are Iraqi christians now? How many Kurds, minorities, opponents have been killed or imprisoned by their neighbouring countries including such allies as Turkey? Democracy in Iraq Franze? I think a Sadam-like dictator is the only thing that will keep the muslims their under control. America should quit trying to export its view of democracy and free market economy to every single country. Look what happened in Algeria during the 'democratic' elections. Thanks to our intervention, the west now has islams concerted and undivided attention. I'm also sick of Bush calling islam a religion of peace and am surprised that so many people on Jihad Watch go out of their way to defend him. Anyone who calls islam a religion of peace has lost my sympathy period. At least here in Holland we have politicians who have the guts to call islam what it is, primitive and intolerant. Let's see a yank match that.
Tenn. Muslims face resistance to new cemetary
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041225/ap_on_re_us/muslim_cemeteries
Ahhh, but the fears are based on ignorance. The good folks of Tennessee don't know that Islam teaches peace. (next to last paragraph)
Does anyone else want to scream everytime they hear "religion of peace?"
RUBY
I would also like to scream "Religion of Peace" -
more like "RELIGION OF PIECES!" If it is so PEACEFUL why are the Muzzies blowing themselves up and innocents in all parts of the world from Iraq to Indonesia?? On an Al BBC Documentary, first things the little darlings did after training was - according to BBC reporter -DRAW FIRST BLOOD - THAT WAS TO GO OUT AND BOMB A CHRISTIAN VILLAGE IN INDONESIA!! Don't know what disgusted me more, the actions of this psychopathic Death Cult or the BBC Reporter who passed over these horrific killings with an airy "Draw first blood" remark. [Thought at the time that it was HIS blood he'd be singing a different tune...]
its funny how the comments here resemble the ones you would see on littlegreenfootballs.com
mostly racist and reactionary.
I'm wondering if God might have sent the Muslims an 8.5-magnitude message just now....
From a web site 'Christian Action for Israel',
(www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/index.html maybe ?) an article from The Washington News, Dec. 22/04,
about protesters who sang carols and Jewish Chanukah songs in front of Columbia High School, which had banned the performance of religious music, and the statement from Mrs. Rosenbluth, editor of Jewish Voice and Opinion, as she arrived to join the carolers with a group of orthodox Jews:
" The greatest works of art in western civilization are inspired by religious - predominantly Christian - convictions.
We are religious Jews who believe western civilization is the heritage of all of our children in the United States. "
Thank you Mrs. Rosenbluth.
Eloquent, direct and honest.
Arhopala, have you forgotten about Afganistan?
Aren't those people better off now? Especially the women! Even if Bush fails to stablize Iraq, at least he sent a message that we aren't to be trifled with. Surely the most dangerous path would be to do nothing.
kevin
>>>>>>I don't find it surprising at all that the muslim terrorists wanted Bush to win the election. Bush fits in perfectly with their profile of a perfidious western leader. Personally I also think he has done much more harm than good. Given that virtually no muslim regime has any respect for human rights, sadam probably wasn't that much worse that the rest
Ruby, that sentence you refer to is further enhanced by the islamic spokesman: "Our religion stresses acceptance by our neighbors," Halimah said. "Even if the law is on our side, religiously we have to be careful." Like the spouting of the inexecrable "islam is a religion of peace" or people are reacting negatively to islam "out of ignorance," they are catchphrases from a playbook, a script. If one cannot see that or does not accept that, one never will. But that is the agenda islam pushes: That islam be accepted, the concept pushed carefully at first; just watch out when the law (shari'a) is on their side, though. The sentence quoted above proves this slyness, and perniciousness, out: "Our religion stresses acceptance by our neighbors" -- whether they like it or not. Is this the voice of the infamously hard to locate "moderate muslim"? Is that our option concerning islam from islam, to accept them, or else? It's the "or else" part that farmer John Wilson mentioned in his complaint, comparing the camel's nose in the tent when it comes to islam to the slow whittling away of the rights of Jews by nazi's in the 1930's. Shari'a is merely the law of a "religious" ideology that has so much in common with nazi's, in fact, islam and nazi's were allied kindred spirits in WWII. They both have an unshakable belief in killing Jews and world domination. God bless farmer Wilson's "ignorance." If only more of us were ignorant like him.
---
'sadlyawake', please stop reciting from islam's playbook: "its [sic] funny how the comments here . . . . [are] mostly racist and reactionary." Please define exactly what "race" islam is. From my understanding, islam stretches across the globe, like Christianity. Are Christians a "race," too?
I'm wondering if God might have sent the Muslims an 8.5-magnitude message just now....
Posted by: Macker
Macker
Natural disaster do not discriminate
sadlyawake well I suggest you go back to happilyasleep
What a lovely post Macker. I'm sure it will console the families of the thousands of Buddhists, Hindu's and tourists who died in Thailand, Sri Lanka and India, phewwww.
No Kevin, I haven't forgotten Afghanistan. Yes, I do think it's a complete waste of time, energy and money that we will either have to support indefinitely or eventually abandon to chaos and a new Taliban-style government. And yes, I do think it's a shame what happened there, destroying all remnants of their pre-islamic history, having no respect for human rights etc. etc. but that seems something that's endemic in places where muslims are in the majority. In other words I'm for leaving those countries to wallow in their own islamic misery to that they may one day see the fallacy of their ways.
Arhopala
I tend to agree with you,and the same goes for iraq.
SadlyAwake, be sure and look up the word trite in the dictionary.
When you have nothing to argue with, call someone a racist.
How incredibly original.
Ruby:
You never got back to me with info about the Iraqi porn purveyor.
Arhopala - In other words I'm for leaving those countries to wallow in their own islamic misery to that they may one day see the fallacy of their ways.
We let those countries wallow in their own Islamic misery. 9/11 was the result.
Fascism and Communism were once endemic in places where Europeans were the majority. If we had let them wallow in their own self-inflicted misery, the world would not be a better place.
http://www.nationalreview.com/smitht/smith200412230825.asp
December 23, 2004, 8:25 a.m.
Christmas Eve Combat
As in 1944, our soldiers know we will prevail.
By W. Thomas Smith Jr.
Surprise attacks in supposedly secure areas. A spike in casualties. A few baffled American commanders. Suspicions of degrading morale within some units. Outright refusal to carry out lawful orders in others. Troops stretched too thin. Blame heaped on planners and those said to be responsible for unreliable intelligence.
Sound familiar?
It all began 60 years ago — this very Christmas season — when the German army, in a last-ditch effort, smashed through the Ardennes and struck the primary Allied lines in Belgium. The attack created an enormous salient or "bulge" in the lines — thus it was known as the Battle of the Bulge (Dec. 16, 1944, to Jan. 28, 1945) — and threatened to cut American and British forces in half.
As the Germans continued deepening, the salient, fresh American units were hurriedly trucked forward from France, including the U.S. Army's crack 101st and the 82nd Airborne Divisions.
The 82nd, the lead division on the road north, was tasked with blunting the enemy's advance along the Salm River. The 101st followed.
En route, the advancing Germans passed between the 82nd and the 101st, separating the two.
"THE BATTLING BASTARDS OF BASTOGNE"
The 101st, under the command of Brigadier General Anthony McAuliffe, was about to make history. The division was rushed toward the strategically vital town of Bastogne.
The allies believed that by holding Bastogne they could regroup their forces and launch a counterattack. The Germans also realized the value of the town: It served as a major highway junction and a potentially important hub for mechanized forces. Control of the roads was critical: The surrounding terrain was rugged and not particularly vehicle-friendly. Consequently, both the Germans and the 101st raced to the city.
In their haste, the American paratroopers had been unable to properly equip themselves. They were desperately short of ammunition, food, water, medical supplies, and winter clothing, much less vehicle armor and personal body armor, which was virtually nonexistent in those days.
On the road, the men of the 101st were shocked to see frightened, fleeing American soldiers (non-Airborne), most of whom were green 18-year-old draftees who had seen little if any combat. The paratroops demanded much-needed ammo from their retreating "leg" brethren. The latter happily complied.
The paratroops arrived first on the 18th and quickly set up defensive positions. The Germans arrived the following day, surrounded the 101st, and laid siege to Bastogne. At that point, some 18,000 Americans in the town were facing 45,000 Germans. Worse, the weather was so poor that Allied aircraft were not able to provide close air support or make resupply drops. But despite the weather, sub-zero temperatures, dwindling supplies, and numerous enemy attacks, the 101st was committed to holding at all costs.
IKE AND PATTON
On the 19th, Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, the Supreme Allied Commander, called a meeting of his chiefs at Verdun. "The present situation is to be regarded as an opportunity for us and not a disaster," Ike said, trying to set a positive tone. "There will only be cheerful faces at this conference table."
Lt. Gen. George S. Patton agreed, adding, "Hell, let's have the guts to let the sons of bitches go all the way to Paris. Then we'll really cut 'em off and chew 'em up." Of course, Patton's brassy suggestion was not an option.
Eisenhower's immediate concern was Bastogne. He asked Patton when he and his Third Army would be able to mount a rescue operation. Patton responded, "on the morning of December 21st."
An impossible boast in Ike's mind, he gave Patton an additional two days.
"NUTS"
On December 22nd, German officers, under a flag of truce, delivered a rather long-winded message from Lt. Gen. Heinrich von Luttwitz to General McAuliffe at Bastogne. The message, demanding the Americans surrender, appealed to the "well-known American humanity" to save the citizens of Bastogne from further suffering. McAuliffe was given two hours to reply.
Having no intention of surrendering, McAuliffe was initially at a loss for words. One of his aides remarked that the general's first comment upon receiving the surrender demand might be wholly appropriate. McAuliffe agreed and penned his now-famous response to the Germans. It simply read, "NUTS."
The message was then delivered by American Col. Joseph Harper to a group of German officers waiting in nearby woods. Harper handed the note to one of the Germans who read it and then looked at Harper in confusion.
"What does that mean?" the German asked. "Is this affirmative or negative?"
Harper responded, "It means you can all go to hell."
Meanwhile, Patton ordered his chief chaplain to compose a prayer asking God for good weather in which to fight. The resulting prayer reads:
Almighty and most merciful Father, we humbly beseech Thee, of Thy great goodness, to restrain these immoderate rains with which we have had to contend. Grant us fair weather for battle. Graciously hearken to us as soldiers who call upon Thee that, armed with Thy power, we may advance from victory to victory, and crush the oppression and wickedness of our enemies and establish Thy justice among men and nations.
The following day, the skies were clear and aircraft were up, but the situation was becoming increasingly desperate at Bastogne.
CHRISTMAS EVE, 1944
On Christmas Eve, Gen. McAuliffe visited with captured German prisoners and wished them well. He also shared with his own men the story about his response to the surrender demand, and he presented a Christmas message, a portion of which reads:
What's merry about all this, you ask? We're fighting. It's cold. We aren't home. All true. But what has the proud [Screaming] Eagle Division accomplished with its worthy comrades...? Just this: We have stopped cold everything that has been thrown at us from the north, east, south and west. We have identifications from four German panzer divisions, two German infantry divisions and one German parachute division. These units, spearheading the last desperate German lunge, were heading straight west for key points when the Eagle Division was hurriedly ordered to stem the advance. How effectively this was done will be written in history; not alone in our Division's glorious history but in world history. The Germans actually did surround us, their radios blared our doom. Allied troops are counterattacking in force. We continue to hold Bastogne. By holding Bastogne we assure the success of the Allied armies.
Out on the perimeter, cold, hungry soldiers shook hands with one another and said goodbyes. Despite McAuliffe's words, the situation was bleak, and the paratroopers knew it. They were running perilously short of food and ammunition. Frostbite and pneumonia casualties were thinning their ranks almost hourly. And there was a numerically superior enemy force surrounding them in the darkness.
On the 26th, Patton punched through to Bastogne, and within hours the Germans began falling back.
Did the men of the 101st ever complain about their situation or question their superiors? No more than any soldiers have done throughout history, and probably less than some, because the amazing consensus among the paratroopers who fought at Bastogne was that they did not need to be relieved by Patton's forces.
In fact, following the relief at Bastogne, the airborne soldiers were tasked with seizing a
number of Belgian towns and hamlets, which they did with the same dash and aplomb they would have had after a period of rest and recuperation. Why? Because the men of Bastogne — like their descendents today serving in Iraq — understood the rewards reaped from hardship.
CHRISTMAS 2004
"Thriving under harsh conditions is something that is bred into us from the beginning of boot camp," 19-year-old Marine Cpl. Richard B. McCluskey told NRO. "It is in our heritage and tradition that we thrive under hardship."
Staff Sgt. William R. Bilenski, a ten-year veteran of the Marine Corps and a transportation chief currently serving his third tour in Iraq, agrees. "Regardless of the situation, if it's a legitimate order, you shut your mouth and do it, no questions asked," he told NRO.
And the morale here is high. My Marines go on the road every single day, and they look forward to going out every single day. They drive for countless hours, man the crew-served weapons, and provide their own security teams. That is all they live for out here — accomplishing the mission — that is what takes them to the next day.
Despite the media-coached National Guardsman (certainly not a frontline combatant like those slugging it out in Fallujah and elsewhere) who publicly questioned the U.S. defense secretary, comments like McCluskey's and Bilenski's are the heartfelt sentiments of the vast majority of combat Marines and soldiers who know — like their great-grandfathers at Bastogne — America will prevail.
— A former U.S. Marine infantry leader and paratrooper, W. Thomas Smith Jr. is a freelance journalist and the author of four books, including the Alpha Bravo Delta Guide to American Airborne Forces
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat and give them Courage to Stand and Fight them Amen
What? No kj pile-on? Hmmm.
sadlyawake, you are not.
CGW,
Sometimes I don't get the comments all read, so I must have missed your request. Why not email me directly and I'll give you whatever info it is you want.
rubytwoshewz (at aoldotcom)
maryatexitzero
Maybe the western immigration policy had something to do with 9-11, Madrid, Theo van Gogh etc. I think we should be more focused on getting muslims out of the west than playing the state-building game in their backyard.
You noted that "Fascism and Communism were once endemic in places where Europeans were the majority. If we had let them wallow in their own self-inflicted misery, the world would not be a better place."
Here I take it that you (i.e. America) claim to have been responsible for the fall of fascism and communism in Europe. Very Americo-centric and such nuance! True, it was a major blunder of the Japanese to attack the US, who may just as well have sat out the whole war as an interested onlooker and have done business with whoever eventually triumphed. Who knows though? The Americans nowadays are also particularly harsh with the French but didn’t the French help them win their war of independence? Aren’t the French therefore responsible for America as it is now? Who knows enfin what sorry state the Americans would be in had it not been for the bravery of the French?
The utopian vision of communism was I'm sure many would agree bound to eventually die out from the beginning, as will eventually the American ideal of a global free market. Both are inhuman utopian dreams built on human misery. I'd even go so far as to say that American-led globalisation has facilitated the fundamentalist islamic cause. They can go anywhere, raise funds and transfer them anywhere, and rely on an islamic underclass to hide in most western countries as did the 9-11 and Madrid terrorists. What I'm suggesting therefore Maryatexitzero is that we in the west focus on our own cultures and well-being while maintaining amicable foreign relations but stop trying to mould the rest of the world including the west into one big globalised multicultural paradise, which in my view is turning into more of a hell.
Arhopala - were right to support French involvement in our war of independence. However, it does undercut your view that isolationism is the best policy.
Isolationism has never worked in the past, and it will never work in the future.
How, exactly, is the idea of a global free market a utopian dream built on human misery? And how is it specifically American? The last time I checked, the United States wasn’t the only member of the WTO.
If a global free market is built on human misery, what’s the alternative? Should we accept the vision of luddite loons like George Monbiot who believes that airplanes and biofuels are evil?
The fundamentalist Islamist cause has been fueled by oil-wealthy Islamist states like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Islamic terrorism isn’t fueled by globalization, it’s fueled by hope. They’ve got all the hope that their oil money can buy. If the West turned to isolationism, if we ran and hid from this problem, we would give the Islamists and the states that support them the hope that they could gain power. They’d also realize that their tactics were working, and so they’d attack us more.
Of course, Islamists are also attacking Thai Buddhists, Indian Hindus and Palestinian Christians, and our retreat into isolationism would mean more attacks against them, but I guess you’re not worried about that.
Isolationists like Lindbergh were wrong about the Nazi threat and you are wrong about the Islamists.
At least here in Holland we have politicians who have the guts to call islam what it is, primitive and intolerant. Let's see a yank match that.
Posted by: Arhopala at December 25, 2004 07:50 PM
ROTFL!!!!!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight, and Courage to Crush ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
ROTFL!!!
Maryatexitzero
I’m didn’t say that I supported French involvement in the US war of independence. I noted that while the US expects Europeans to go down on their knees for help during WW II they forget that they were ‘helped’ along the way by European nations. I also find it highly disparaging how some Americans present the US here. The modern-day US is essentially a European product as are your ancestors no doubt, products of Europe. Unfortunately, there’s not much left over of pre-European America.
There are plenty of alternatives to the global free market. Japanese-style capitalism, for example, or Singaporean-style capitalism or German-style capitalism. All are market structures adapted to their own society. Why should these disappear to make way for a global market for this is what globalisation entails. The US and WTO constantly criticise Japan yet Japan has much more social cohesion than the US, much better income equitability and a full employment policy. Why does this need to change into a western/US free market ideal? I never advocated isolationism by the way. I’d also like to know how globalised US policies are helping the Thai Buddhists, Indian Hindus and Palestinian Christians. Add to that the Iraqi Christians who are worse off now than under sadam and the Indonesian Christians. I’m all for helping these non-muslim minorities but that’s not what is happening now, no doubt under Arab muslim pressure. I also do support US aid to Israel but just find the US/western intervention in Afghanistan/Iraq futile and even counterproductive. Funny that you should mention how Islamic terrorism is fuelled by oil. Not so funny that the US is by far the single greatest consumer of that oil and refuses to make substantial investments in alternatives such as solar and wind energy and biofuels! And even though I never mentioned supporting isolationism, isolationism is not the greatest threat to the west. That threat comes from mass immigration that is at least partially a result of a globalised free market with the concomitant mobility of labour. Anything that would have prevented the enormous influx of muslims into the west over the last 30 years, even isolationism, would have been a good thing in my eyes. Thanks for a good discussion by the way maryatexitzero, which is more than I can say for Catherine. What on earth is this squirrel hunter, spider killer thing supposed to mean?
The modern-day US is essentially a European product as are your ancestors no doubt, products of Europe.
Arhopala - My point was, fascism and communism (and pogroms, Vichy France, etc.) were oppressive/totalitarian concepts that were created by Europeans. I’ve lived in Europe, and, while European chocolates and architecture are far superior to their American counterparts, your politics are (at best) loopy.
At their worst, European politcs lean very heavily towards totalitarianism.
While socialist Michael Moore represents the far left in America, he’s moderate compared to the European Left. The European Right is extremely anti-immigrant, and they lean towards Le Pen style fascism. In contrast, Americans prefer moderation.
The modern-day US consists mostly of people whose ancestors were willing to sacrifice their homes, their money, and their family relationships for one all-important goal – to get the hell out of Europe. European political beliefs have always tended to be extreme, harmful and counterproductive.
Our ancestors were willing to sacrifice everything to get away from European politics. Do you really think we want your advice now?
maryatexitzero
I don't think that most would consider America moderate with the death penalty, extreme crime rate and incarceration, and income inequality that has more in common with the third world than any western democracy. Let's also not forget that while your ancestors were willing to sacrifice everything to get out of Europe they also sacrificed the native Americans, otherwise known as genocide. A more recent example are the hundreds of thousands of Philipino's who died at American hands. What about the CIA sponsorded take-over of Allende's Chili? Although you claim that America's politics are moderate they have a long history of supporting the most extremely despotic regimes. Can you, furthermore, blame the right in Europe for being anti-immigrant by the way? Maybe it's a response to a perceived threat by islamic immigrants. Somehow I imagine that you also think that these muslim immigrants pose a threat. Anyhow both Europe and America have blood on their hands and both are threatened by muslims. I don't agree at all with the anti-israel approach taken by some European politicians or the pandering to muslims but I don't agree with the American approach in Iraq or Afghanistan either.
Let's also not forget that while your ancestors were willing to sacrifice everything to get out of Europe they also sacrificed the native Americans, otherwise known as genocide.
Arhopala - My Irish ancestors were too busy dealing the with British-inflicted oppression and famine to pick on the native Americans. They didn’t come to America until the twenties.
Americans have made mistakes, but they don’t share the consistent European affection for oppression and totalitarianism. This affection for totalitarianism is responsible for the misery and many millions of deaths that Europeans have suffered. European nations are also allied with despotic regimes.
I don’t agree with everything that we’ve done in Iraq, and there are a number of possible solutions to that problem. Unfortunately, the suggestion that we leave those countries to “wallow in their own islamic misery to that they may one day see the fallacy of their ways.” is one of the worst. It’s wrong and unworkable in so many ways. History, especially European history, proves this.
maryatexitzero
I'm also half Irish and half Dutch, both of which (Ireland and Holland) are not countries with a strong totalitarian tradition. I wouldn't want to live in a totalitarian country but the opposite of totalitarianism is anarchy and anarchy can often prove more disastrous. I'm happy that we in the west can live under some form of democracy but a western style democracy need not be the best solution for all states. Singapore, for example, is an essentially non-democratic but stable and prosperous society. Trying to install a western-style democracy in cultures that are simply not compatible with that political tradition may be a recipe for disaster. The interaction with islam is already causing a noticeable erosion of civil liberties in Holland. It could be that our present form of interaction with islam will cause more harm to the west than it will good to islam, that is good in our understanding of good. I'm not a complete isolationist by the way. There's a lot of good the west can do i.e. taking up the non-violent struggle for the rights of Amazonian Indians, Tibetans, Assyrians etc., trying to stop global environmental degradation, confronting overpopulation. If nothing else I just think that the money spent on Iraq could have been put to better use.
Posted by: Arhopala at December 27, 2004 07:09 PM
You are a smug sort??
You can't even fix what is in your yard!! and you are telling others how they don'r deserve to be FREE??
When you fix what is in your yard and don't give up your way of life then we can talk??
Clean up your own Sh-t Frist!!
What was it a famous General Said Lead Follow Or get the Hell out of the Way!!!
OH! YEA! Think that was when we saved your asses from the Germans I believe??
AS you sit back and do the same thing with the Mulsums in your country oh but for a hero??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO CRUSH ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES AND GIVE THEM COURAGE TO STAND AND FIGHT AMEN
You're a moron freak Catherine and not even worthy or a decent debate. It must be hard for you now in winter without any squirrels to hunt or spiders to kill.