Is the jihadist thug Erdogan beginning to show his true colors? From the Times Online, with thanks to JJP Mackie:
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, the Turkish Prime Minister, has told European Union leaders that they will pay a heavy price in continued and escalating violence from Islamic extremists if the EU rejects Turkey as a member and confirms itself as a Christian club. “Accepting a country that has brought together Islam and democracy will bring about harmony between civilisations. If, on the other hand, it is not welcomed, the world will have to put up with the present situation,” he said, referring to terrorism by such groups as al-Qaeda — whose local affiliates hit Turkey last year, bombing the British consulate and three other targets in Istanbul.
Is he suggesting that jihad terrorism will cease if Turkey is admitted into the EU? How and why? Does he have control over it?
“That is the very clear and present danger and it is all around us today. There is nothing we can do if the EU feels that it can live with being simply a Christian club . . . but if these countries burn their bridges with the rest of the world, history will not forgive them.”Mr Erdogan’s powerful warning came just days before the EU summit that will decide whether to start formal accession talks with Turkey and against a furious European debate about the effects of incorporating Turkey’s 70 million, mainly Muslim, population into the Union....
Mr Erdogan is a declared “conservative democrat”, but his background as an Islamic firebrand has led to so many questions that his face broke into a “not again” smile at the mere mention of the problem.
“We are Muslim, we are Turkish, we are democratic and our country is secular,” he said, emphasising every phrase. “Nothing else need be said.” Nevertheless, he believed that the EU, in trying to add safeguards and get-out clauses in the draft for the talks, was discriminating against Ankara.
ADDENDUM: Nicolei, who also sent this piece in just now, comments cogently:
Will the acceptance of Turkey into EU stop the terrorism in Indonesia, the Philippines, Afghanistan, South Thailand?The last tine I checked, Al-Qaeda's declaration of jihad against the West (the USA and Israel in particular) was about the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Turkey's membership into EU was not an issue. Erdogan is insulting the the intelligence of the terrorists who wish to restore a caliphate and not to accept non-Muslim states as their equal. Erdogan is also insulting the intelligence of non-Muslims who understands the real reasons, rationale and inspiration for Islamic terrorism.
"We are democratic, secular and peaceful, and if you don't do what we want, we're gonna blow you Infidels up!"
Is this the message here?
History will not forgive them - who is "history", in this case?
Of course, none of the Eastern European new member states or current candidate states has been threatening the EU with the revenge of "history" if they'd not be accepted. You don't want us to be a Christian club, fine! It's quite enough if we can keep EU a non-violent "club" in which decisions are made by negotiating and arguing, not by threats and blackmail; and whose all members recognize each others' existence, regardless of religion. That's enough to keep Turkey out. For now, and preferably, for ever (or, as long as it's genuinely democratic and secular - which, unfortunately, may take forever...).
What communion hath light with darkness?
If anyone in Turkey describes what the Turks did to the Armenians as genocide then they can get 10 years in prison.
Free speech is the life blood of democracy.
Is that what Erdogan calls democratic?
The trouble in Europe is that they no longer have any real sense of history.
One of the main themes of East European history since the 14th century has been the attempt to constrain then push back the Turkish invasion.
Have they learned nothing?
The tone of the Turkish PM sounds condescending and increasingly combative and demanding. The EU better think long and hard on this one, about ten seconds, before they come to their senses.
The comments "Europe wants to remain a Christian club" really irks me...um yes, it should remain Judeo-Christian you freak.
Another thing, the Turkish PR firms must be in overdrive. Last night, there was a 3 minute report on the religious village Turkey has created. A sort of religious Disneyland where a church, a mosque and a synagogue are featured adjacent to one another. The reporter was gushing in German about all the tolerance and so forth. I didn't see the other buildings, but to me the church and synagogue was about the size of a small garage, the cross on the roof was almost half the size of the building. What a joke it looked like. A JW poster remarked that it might be big enough for garden gnomes, he was not all that wrong.
Maybe it's just paranoia, but Turkey's erratic behavior on this whole E.U.-joining campaign makes me wonder if in some way (perhaps in its national subconscious) Turkey is not complicit in the expansionist agenda of Dar al-Islam to reduce Dar al-Harb.
So it's all right for the Middle East to remain a "Muslim Club", but not for Europe to remain a "Christian/Secular Club".
Standard thinking.
Geoff
How can one find common interaction with those in Turkish power that continue to make such idio-centric comments such as this, Let alone remarks that U.S. was using a nuclear bomb in Iraq.
The historic friction over the last 10 years between the rest of the EU countries and Turkey can only be supported as positive by those who subscribe to political correctness, moral relativism, let alone all those so-called academic intellectual apologists.
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Screaming 'bloody discrimination' Turkey is knocking at Europe's door.
But who is to be blamed for being left out but it's own policies? To qualify for an institution, you have to at least be prepared to conform by the rules that apply to all the members. You would think that this is a 'no-brainer', but for the Turkish government that seems to believe that it deserves some kind of special treatment!
A country with no respect for human rights, the only NATO country with no civilian control over its army, threatening the European Union with veto before even entering into the organization (!), occupying a sovereign country, regularly threatening a country member of the European Union, Turkey does its best to prove that it is a source of instability, and is not ready to make the necessary changes in order to be admitted into the European family.
More blackmails and threats to Europe: The German newspaper Berliner Zeitung said in a report to be published on Wednesday that Turkey was threatening to block NATO's adoption of a new Strategic Concept, updating alliance strategy for the first time since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.
Reuters, April 20, 1999
Turkish Prime Minister rejects Italian offer to meet. Yilmaz said that Italy would be an accomplice to mass murder unless it handed over Occalan. Italian PM D'Alema rejected those remarks as "unacceptable'' and vowed that his country would not give in to "economic blackmail'' from Turkey.
Reuters, November 19, 1988
EU blasts Turkey's human rights record. The report on Turkey said that "the persistent violations of human rights and important deficiencies in the treatment of minorities are causes for concern. Theabsence of real civilian control over the army is also an anomaly."
Reuters, November 4, 1998
The president of the EU and Prime Minister of Luxembourg. blasts Turkey: Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker accused Turkey of threatening to use military force to block the EU membership of Cyprus. He said a country which used torture could not sit down at the EU table and it would take ``decades'' for Turkey to realize its European vocation.
Reuters, December 13, 1997
Mitterrand's widow calls on EU to keep Turkey out: The widow of French President Francois Mitterrand, in a letter published on Friday, compared European leaders who support EU membership for Turkey to French collaborators with the Nazi occupation.
Reuters/CNN, December 12, 1997
Germany condemns arrest of Turkish activist. Arrested on Sunday, the blind 52 year-old activist was being held in a police cell on Monday in what was seen as the possible beginning of a jail term of nearly 23 years.
Reuters, October 21, 1997
Turkey's accession to the European Union not possible. German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel, listing those conditions as "human rights violations, the Southeast problem and economic problems."
Turkish Daily News, June 30, 1997
German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel said here Wednesday it was not possible for Turkey to join the European Union in the near future. Kinkel said the question of human rights, Turkeys enduring conflict with Kurdish separatists, and its differences with Greece over the divided island of Cyprus must be sorted out before EU membership could be considered.
Agenece Presse Francais, March 26, 1997
Denmark sues Turkey over alleged torture "We believe we have a strong case, and it is important draw attention to the practice of torture in Turkey." Foreign Minister Niels Helveg Petersen.
United Press International, January 4, 1997
Turkey received its biggest blow ever from the European Parliament when the latter voted in a number of resolutions to freeze millions of dollars of aid to Ankara, and accused it of provocative actions in Cyprus, the Aegean, aggression in northern Iraq, and violation of human rights.
Athens News Agency, October 25, 1996
Euro MPs vote to freeze EU aid to Turkey" 'Turkey is not affected by these kind of things,' the state-run Anatolian news agency quoted Foreign Ministry Undersecretary Onur Oymen as saying. Oymen said the EU aid was minimal compared to Turkey's export earnings."
Reuters, October 24, 1996
Europarliament determined to block hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to Ankara, aggression in Cyprus, provocation in the Aegean Sea, aggression in northern Iraq, deterioration of human rights cited as reasons.
Reuters, September 19, 1996 09/19/96
"Deeply shocked by the killings" the Europarliament condemns Turkey for the murders of the two Greek Cypriots. "[The European Parliament is] (A) ... deeply shocked by the killings that took place in August during a peaceful demonstration for the reunification of the island, where two Greek Cypriots were killed and several wounded, including two UN peacekeepers, by the security forces of the Turkish-occupied part of Cyprus. (B)... having regard to the so-called counter-demonstrations organised by the Turkish authorities with the active involvement and participation of elements belonging to the Turkish armed forces and the illegal occupying powers..."
European Parliament, September 19, 1996
Report by the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights in Turkey. Turkey continues to abuse state power and violate its commitments to international human rights instruments in harassing, persecuting, and imprisoning human rights advocates.
Organization for the Security and Cooperation in Europe, Review Conference, Vienna, 1996.
The European Commission of Human Rights overrules Ankara's opposition, admits Cyprus case against Turkey, for violation of several articles of the convention. The case before the court concerns the arrest of 1,619 persons and their disappearance after 1974, date of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the refusal to allow 170,000 Greek Cypriots to return to their homes and property, and violation of the human rights of Greek Cypriots still living in the north of the island.
Agence France Presse, 1996.
EU Complains Over "Prostitute" Remark: Three leading women members of the European Parliament have been called 'prostitutes' by a Turkish Government minister. The outburst followed the Euro MPs' visit to Turkey last month for talks on human rights and a proposed customs union with the EU.
European Parliament Info Memo Press Release, June 14, 1995
Can one honestly say that Turkey meets the Qualifications to be a member of the EU? Can I sell you a bridge as Mr. Spencer has said.
"History will not forgive them,,," He is right!
History will not forgive us if Turkey joins the EC, for that will be the end of the EC.
Therefore: No more dialogue, no negotiations,
and STOP MUSLIM INFILTRATION OF EUROPE, US, CANDA AUSTRALIA altogether!!!
To the Turks, Western Europe is just a scaled up version of Cyprus. It is their divine right to assert itself as overlord of the dar al-Harb. Joining EU is just a step along the way to restoring the ascendancy of the defunct Ottoman empire, and perhaps the caliphate itself. What they failed to do in 1683 they now aspire to achieve through treachery. Did not a thousand years of perfidy emanating from this fount of human misery teach the Western Europeans anything at all?
Sidewalk cafe, mid-town Manhattan, summer 1998:
Serenj: "These yellow womens!"
"Blond women, Serenj."
Serenj: "Yes, I will but three of these women when I am rich."
"We don't buy womem here. And please don't speak so loudly."
Serenj: "I must buy these womens."
"Waiter. Check, please."
But hey, I'm insensitive ot other cultures, right? If there are 70 million Moslems in Europe on top of the 30 million or so now, they'll be a majority, and I won't feel like such an oppressor. In fact, if I save my money I might even be able to buy a blond woman if there are any left over.
IF the worst comes to worst, and Turkey is admitted to the EU, then that just means that the civil war between muslims and non-muslims will start earlier than we thought.
Get your guns ready, you may need them soon.
"... If, on the other hand, it is not welcomed, the world will have to put up with the present situation,” he said, referring to terrorism by such groups as al-Qaeda ... "
LOL! Yeah, right. Al-Q terrorism will stop if Turkey is admitted to the EU. And there will be "harmony between civilizations"! LOL! This guy is such a comedian. But, many dhimmis around the world will take this quite seriously. Just like they figure the Israeli-Palestinian thing is the cause of all terrorism, and that if that stopped, there would be peace and bliss forever more. It's not Islam. No, no, never say that. How bigoted, hateful and Islamophobic to imply such a thing! It's the Joos and the Americans, don't you know? And now the new, trendy reason will be the failure to admit Turkey to the EU. Anything and everything but to admit fault with their own belief system.
1350 years we have been fighting the bastards, now we are building bridges for them to roll all over us and to cut our throats?
Action please, Counter-action...
hi everybody,
i am posting this comment as it has been told so.
i find the article objective just trying to find out what it going on. i can't say the same thing with the comments posted. it is ful of prejudice and when i read them i can see the lack of knowledge behind.
what erdogan meant is actually this with his words. the politicians doesn't take his words as a thread because they know what he means. otherwise can u think of ec politicians not answering this.
your comments testifies that there is a gap between the so called christian and muslim world. well, these terms are not exactly right, but i guess you all know what i am talking about.
turkey is always been a bridge between europe and asia georgraphically, but most cultural. most people think that being a bridge connecting something places, people is something is very nice. when you think about that it is only nice for the places and people using the bridge, but when it comes to the bridge it is not so and for me it is not. when you are a bridge, you are something in between. you can't exactly define yourself. because of your being and your position, you are defined to connect people.
there is also something else about the bridge. people like using the bridge, like connecting through the bridge, but they don't like staying on the bridge for long
as it is something in between kind of nowhere.
you may all think that turkey is not a part of europe, then the opposite of this should be it is the part of the muslim world. they don't think that turkey is a part of them either. turkey is a bit this and a bit of that.
eventhough, turkey's contribution with islam is found unconventional by the muslim world, it really does sets a good example for them how western ideals can live not only with islam, but also with east. after the september 11 attacks the world become more heterogeneous. there is more contrast then ever between different worlds. west don't like east and east don't like west. just go back to your comments and you will find what i mean.
and this is becoming very heavy for turkey. in another way what erdogan means the bridge is over loaded. the politicians understand what he means very clearly, but on the otherhand for people who are not deeply into the subject it could easily understood the otherway round.
when erdogan says history he is talking with a future perspective thinking of today as a history. now american is the biggest power in the world, but no one else after russia split. whenyou look at future you can easily se china on of the biggest powers and then there is the middle eastern muslim world which i don't think that they will become a power as a whole, but will be another pole in the equation. and there is eu which wants to be in that equation as a big power.
the think is with turkey, eu can become a bridge itself other than being a christian club. even though there is a very high population of muslims in america an even eu countries they are a minority. with turkey muslim people in eu will feel like they have their own voice. and muslim world won't consider eu as a christian club.
america will find eu close to itself, but so muslim world when you think between the future powers of the world so this will make eu more powerfull between all. and with turkey being a part of eu the equation of the world will become more homogeneous which will bring more peace in the world.
this is what erdogan is really talking about.
i really wonder how many of the people making comment here really seen turkey and know about it, is making the comment. turkey is not a perfect land, but it is not as it seems really. everybody says something about the kurdish problem. everybody almost have an idea. they say they don't have anyrights. well do you know one of our quite current primeminister and afterwards he became president is kurdish. actually pkk terror attacks occured at his time, he and his goverment took the first actions against pkk. there hasn't been any black president in america nor jewish president in germany as far as i know if i m not mistaken. we even had a woman primeminister and she made a coalition with the extremist islamist party ever in turkey and they were greeting eachother by holding hands and furthermore kissing and they didn't think that they were making a sin when they were talking with a woman who wasn't wearing a scarf. as you know this is the case in most of the nearly all muslim countries.
eventhough we see islam extremists as a thread to our nation, there is a long long way to go.
everbody is free about making comments especially on the internet, but just bare this in mind when you are making a comment do you really know what it is or is it what you heard before and what you have been told. if so that's called stereotyping and streotypes creates prejudice. just do something different visit places that you don't share a same perspective in life than you can have a real view what is going on around the world. well lets say a bit less perceptive cause you can never know what is really going on. don't forget you only know what is being told. they said there was weapon of mass destruction in iraq. everybody says something but what is really going on? they talk about the armenian assuylm, is that really true or false?
Sacranie is devious or foolish.The Law that protects Jews, Sikhs and the protagonists in Northern Ireland is designed to avoid people being abused because of an accident of birth which they cannot help, rather than their pernicious beliefs which they can.That's why it doesn't apply to Christians, who make no complaints about their exclusion, and express no desire to be included in the proposed amendement ,despite the Muslims cunning insistance that they are equally deserving of protection.The Irish, by the way, find it impossible to discard the religion of their parents no matter how hard they try.You're a Protestant agnostic or a Catholic atheist whether you like it or not.Sacranie thinks that you should avoid "hostility and hatred" whatever your religion. But what if that religion encompasses mass murder of innocents, the torture of children, the slaying in barbarous fashion of pleading captives,allegiance to a higher Sovereign,a misosogyny that extends to mutilation and militant homophobia? Surely it would be reasonable to feel a certain hostility towards those who subscibed to such views or, on occasion, if one were particularily outraged, hatred?
Sorry for the previous post.Wrong thread.I'm new to this.