Italy: Furor Over Scrapping of Christmas Play

This is insane beyond words.

There are days when I say to myself that if there are really people like this in Italy, France, America, who really and sincerely go in for this...then perhaps our conquest by Islam will be a good thing. It'll be God's way of letting us know just what He thinks of our wholsale abandonment of our faith. For those of you who are thoughtful and theologically inclined, ponder this: Islam is what God thinks of our apostasy.

Maybe we need seven or eight centuries under Islamic rule to finally value our culture, to finally love and cherish what we have.

"You don't know what you got till you lose it", right?

I posted this in another thread here, but it could just as well go in this one. A similar situation with regard to Italy sparked quite another controversy with a Dr. Denis MacEoin who was very offended at our relatively restrained reaction to almost daily cultural erasures such as this:

The thing that gets me about Mr. MacEoin's flamboyant exit is that he chose to do so in such an extravagant and self righteous fashion. He made his final decision by his own admission, after reading the thread featuring the story of the Italian School which tried to accommodate Muslim pupils by substituting the name "Jesus" in traditional choir text.

Admittedly, there were some off color comments which were stinging in their opinion. But I think overall, they were not that, to employ the much over-exaggerated term, "Hateful" at all. Merely opinionated and of course some superficially biased.

If that's enough to drive Mr. MacEoin away, then every blog is off limits, because all allow opinion to be stated and opinions, comes from flawed humans. Almost all blogs have to deal with their share of bias, racism, bad manners and ignorance. Also present is enlightened summary, insight and perspective. So to brand a Jihad Watch undesirable because it allows people to essentially be people and state what it is that they are really thinking, is immature and snobby.

Considering the commendable temperance of the vast majority of JW posters who don’t intend to be deliberately offensive and those who are simply not, I wonder if you have you ever been to the many Islamic websites where beheading videos are celebrated and the WTC massacre is laughed at in the threads?

It is my opinion that your challenge to set an example for the Muslims is noteworthy. But why must multiculturism always be a one-way street? Muslim's are not our playthings being trained under our watchful eye. They are human beings, who are perfectly capable of making decisions of their own. If you haven’t noticed Mr. MacEoin, they are seemingly unwilling to accept any example we offer, whether ignorant or enlightened for fourteen centuries, so your point is reactionary and excuses their serious shortcomings by placing the burden of responsibility solely on us.

My question to the good author, scholar and translator is what do you think of such emotional issues as Italians being forced to essentially censor their own religious and cultural heritage under the yoke of insane multicultural posturing pending their Islamification? Are we allowed to "Gripe" about it? I mean, in the end if demographics persist, we are going to be a hybrid or extinct culture. Should we smile while we are being spit on, just shut up and take it? Yes, that earns respect. Many will want to join a club which won’t even defend itself.

Do you feel threatened by the real feelings and thoughts of your fellow countrymen as well as other worldwide posters (not just you presumptuous jibe at America), as expressed here? Or would you rather prefer more of the erudite subtler forms of that supremely grotesque word, "Racism", which has morphed into something often bearing no relationship to the objects of its application, as demonstrated by your wielding of it in a grand exit.

Mr. MacEoin, multiculturism shoved down the throats of a civilization, forcing it to take a back-seat to its own achievements and heritage, is the ultimate form of civilizational genocide and Racism. Do you prefer us to be happy about it?

In doing some research about you, it is clear that you are drawn to public commentary, as indicated by your frequent letters to the UK Guardian. In one you state the following:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1111545,00.html

"If she were a Jew, a Sikh, or a Baha'i, which state might she expect to protect her beliefs: France or a Muslim country?"

I don't know if you've been reading the papers sir in those ivory towers, but France IS becoming a Muslim country as evidenced by a stunning array of evidence such as genital mutilations, gang rapes, uncontrolled Mosque and "Islamic Cultural Center" construction for a population of some 5 million Muslims and over 800 city-suburb police "No-Go zones".

You also state:

"The headscarf move is a sensible school uniform measure designed to stop the French school system from becoming the Northern Irish nightmare I was taught in. **Multiculturalism** gets you Northern Ireland: integration gives you tolerance and the rule of law for everyone."

I agree with you in principle. I am for banning headscarves in the schools as well, but not only because they are a symbol of Islamism and repression of women, but because I fear the psychological effects it is having on Western societies. For Muslims it is empowering, for us it is a raw sign of our demise and honestly speaking, banning it without immigration reform will be useless.

If we in the West did not have such a huge, monolithic presence of Muslims in Europe and America etc, headscarf’s would not be a cause for concern as a tiny number of Muslims expressing themselves as they please would not have such drastic implications.

But your misuse of the word "Integration" as opposed to correct word, "Assimilation", troubles me as much as your tossing off your "racist" charge. All Muslims are integrating into Western society, integrating their cultural and religious norms into our existing system. This is why they are now hip to the multicultural lingo and publicly assert that they accept "Integration" but demand, without "Assimilation" while they "Dialogue" (hudna?) with the West. What is needed is assimilation, becoming E pluribus unum, a part of the whole, not separate from it.

The message of Muslims in the West is that of a confident belligerent presence determined to impose their will upon the lot of us. Not all do, but that is the essence of Islam. Its history clearly indicates this fact. As Mr. Fitzgerald said, no civilization once immersed in its grasps has ever recovered speaks volumes to you asserted "offence" to the many who voice frustration and anger over the helplessness of our present condition as documented here in these archives.

I can say that as a horror novelist, a scholar who was silenced by powerful forces within the shady Islamic intellectual community and a translator of various works of the Baha'i faith your story is interesting.

Is it true that you became a Baha'i in North Ireland around 1965 and quickly emerged as a Baha'i youth leader?

http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/MacEoin.htm

Although you stated at Jihad Watch "I am not a Muslim and do not hold a brief for Islam." as I understand it, Baha’i has its foundations in Islam.

http://www.bahai.org/article-1-3-0-7.html

If such is the case, your multicultural "Northern Ireland nightmare" as you stated, can also be taken as an offensive statement by many under the ideology of multiculturalism and your omission of your involvement with a Muslim based belief system, if true, seems disingenuous and itself biased.

Thank you.

Don't the Muslims regard Jesus (Isa) as a prophet as well?
What is going on here?
BTW, I have recently heard a Turk complaining about the church bells chiming on sunday morning.

There is a good article on the substittuion of "Cappuccetto rosso" (Little Red Riding Hood) in a Treviso school in the Corriere della Sera for December 6 (see p. 17). There is also an front-page article (continued on that same p. 17) by Gaspare Barbiellini Amidei, titled "Cappuccetto rosso nel Presepe" which does begin with a vignette of hearing the muezzin's wail in Fez, and who would deny the Muslims their wail, and then segues into the situation where, in Italian schools, all sorts of silly things are being done to take the Christ out of the Italian Christmas, for Italian children, so that Muslim children will not be offended. Fear of giving offense to Muslims has become a major preoccupation in Italian schools, and Barbellini Amidei does not approve.

There is, on the same front page of Monday's paper, another article -- "Se l'integrazione entra in crisi"about the "modelli falliti in Francia in Gran Bretagna" -- the failed models of "integration" (of Muslims) in France and England, and how the French after detailed study have concluded there are serious, possibly insurmountable problems with integration, and in England, the Blair government, after years of singing the praises of "multiculturalism" (whatever that is) has decided that none of what was hoped to be achieved has worked.

This article by Angelo Panebianco is even more important as a tour d'horizon of how various European countries are trying to solve the unsolvable -- to integrate a population that does not want to be integrated, that is taught to despise the Infidels and their ways, and that looks forward to inheriting the whole place, through demography and Da'wa. Well, Panebianco doesn't go that far in his whitebread mainstream analysis, but he ends on a note that is cautiously pessimistic:

"The only certain thing is that we have little time left for the E.U. to adopt a consistent community-wide policy not only on immigration but on the integration of religious minorities [note how he pluralizes a singular problem, that arises only with Muslims -- he still can't bring himself to admit this is a special case], with the Muslim one at the top. Otherwise, within a few years, "Islamic" political parites might arise within various European countries and, at that point, the game of "integration" will definitely have been lost."

What he does not realize, or perhaps he does but will not say, is that the game of integration has already been lost. Read what Islam teaches. Read what Muslims believe. Find out. There is no mystery. It is not hermetically sealed. A click away on the Internet can give you all the texts. And you have at this website constant reference to other sites and scholars -- start with Ibn Warraq and Bat Ye'or, and Ali Sina. www.dhimitude.org, www.secularislam.org, www.faithfreedom.org. It's all there.

Would that the Joint Chiefs, too, assigned their staffs to study the history of Islam, lest they start believing the handful of "moderate" Muslims who have risen through the ranks and on whom they no doubt rely to tell them the truth -- and who, in truth, are careful to attribute the problems not to Islam itself, mainstream orthodox Islam, but to Hassan al-Banna, or Azzam, or the "Wahhabis," or the favorite scapegoat, Ibn Taymiyya (who merely expressed what is explicit in Islam already -- he did NOT add anything particularly new, but by focusing on this or that commentator or jurisconsult, Muslim advisers may continue to fool those who spend their time in what is called "warfighting" that it is not an entire belief-system with which they must contend -- and until that, whcih all defectors from Islam undrstand so perfectly and completely, reality -- in Iraq and in Europe and elsewhere -- will continue to be misapprehended. At great cost.

My son (5 years old) is playing a shepherd (of course he isnt too happy about wearing the 'dress' but happy to be in the play) in his schools play this evening, it will include a nativity scene and is entitled "the Christmas Miracle"...so glad we live in a non liberal area of Ontario.

Whatever became of the expression 'When in Rome do as the Romans do'?

Little Red Riding Hood?

Why not at least put on something interesting, like Voltaire's play "Mohammad- or- Fanaticism"?

Or show the Egyptian film-maker Youssef Chahine's movie on the life of Averroes: "Destiny", which depicts their 'beloved scholar' being hounded by Muslim fanatics- even during their 'Golden Age of Tolerance'.

The potential for incisive substitutes are humorously and deliciously/maliciously endless.

But, in Italy (isn't there a Pope around there somewhere?) you might think people would understand the historical tradition of such a play, and laugh at anyone who suggested a Germanic fairy tale in its place.

Unless the 'Big Bad Wolf' wore a Palestinian head-dress and little Red Riding Hood was forced into a chador? And said wolf was shown graphically devouring Grandma, who might be wearing a cardinal's zuchetto?

Aren't there any wits left in the boot of Italy?

As noted, the real possibilities are endless....

When I posted this morning I mentioned that I would be brief as I had to go and conduct a pre-school nativity.
I am proud to report that it went very well. Baby Jesus did not get dropped on his head this year (fear not, we use a doll) although Mary refused to wear the dark blue dress prefering the sparkly angels wings and tiara. No one was sick and we sang 4 carols.

The choice of Little Red Riding Hood is ironic beyond words...

Ridiculous, outrageous, yes indeed. But we don't have to go to Italy to find such behavior. Although this doesn't seem to be related to the jihad or Muslims, this speaks to how rapidly the U.S. is going down the P.C. toilet; how we also are throwing away our culture and our identity.

Dickens Is Too Religious for Public Schools. A Christmas Carol Is Banned.

Christmas Carols, symphonic music, and now literature, all custom is swept away!

Far too many people, specially teachers, are ignorant about islam. What they see in their classes are little muslim kids; and who could associate anything as macarbe as the hell of islam with such children. Being kind and generous, they feel they must involve these children in the spirit of Christmas. And they do so by removing the very essence of Christmas - to the detriment of both Christians and muslims.

Ignorant and misguided, they feel they are doing good. What they do not realise is that they are stoking the very furnace that they do not wish to see ignited.

As for muslims, they must be confused. Here they come destitute, having escaped from the hell of dar ul islam to the culturally, economically and militarly powerful West. And what they find, is that the West is falling to its knees in front of them. Very confusing and at the same time encouraging. They really must feel that they are the rightful masters coming to claim allah's inheritance to the muslim. Robbing the kuffar of his inheritance, they feel must feel, is easier then stealing from the blind. Who can blame them.

I just convinced an ex-Muslim woman who lives in Norway (from faithfreedom.org) to post her story on a liberal website (www.rawstory.com).

Here is the link to her post:

http://forums.bluelemur.com/viewtopic.php?t=1028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=7d0426a0386f79510e4ff7b7e3ce0362

Anyone is welcome to chime in. If we get this thread growing, it will get the attention of more liberals who just aren't getting it. All I ask is that all forum participants tone down their right-wing rhetoric. I begged Alkaliel to tell her story because people like her are our only hope for removing the right-wing stigma from this life-or-death topic. I have yet to post because my reputation as conservative is already known. Needless to say, liberal anti-jihadis are especially welcome. Let's pray this is the beginning of something really big.

KJ are you listening?

Meanwhile the French are going to insist on French language lessons for the imams in France. Fat lot of good that will do. The message of the koran is the same whether in French or Arabic.

ACTION ALERTS:

This just in from Rublev:

I just convinced an ex-Muslim woman who lives in Norway (from faithfreedom.org) to post her story on a liberal website (www.rawstory.com).

Here is the link to her post:

http://forums.bluelemur.com/viewtopic.php?t=1028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=7d0426a0386f79510e4ff7b7e3ce0362

Anyone is welcome to chime in. If we get this thread growing, it will get the attention of more liberals who just aren't getting it. All I ask is that all forum participants tone down their right-wing rhetoric. I begged Alkaliel to tell her story because people like her are our only hope for removing the right-wing stigma from this life-or-death topic. I have yet to post because my reputation as conservative is already known. Needless to say, liberal anti-jihadis are especially welcome. Let's pray this is the beginning of something really big.

ACTION ALERT FROM SUZI:

'Convicted Killer Running for President!'

How would you feel if you saw that headline in your local newspaper? Outraged? Incensed? Dumbfounded?

That was exactly how I felt when I learned that Marwan Barghouti, currently in prison in Israel for killing Jews, had announced his candidacy for President of the PLO!

Yes! The PLO has officially accepted Barghouti?s candidacy to fill Yasser Arafat?s shoes.

The U.S. has agreed to send a team to monitor the Palestinian elections, and will, no doubt, support whomever the Palestinians elect as Arafat?s successor. Is this not like saying to the Taliban, ?If you should elect Osama bin Laden as your representative, we will support him?? Or agreeing to support Saddam Hussein should he be re-elected as President of Iraq while in an Iraqi prison?

Marwan Barghouti was the first Palestinian prisoner to be tried in Israel since the signing of the Oslo Accords. He was been convicted in the deaths of four Israelis and a Greek monk. He was originally charged with planning 37 terror attacks, which included 26 indictments for murder.

Barghouti gained entrance to the terror cartel when he helped to found Shabiba, a Fatah youth organization under the umbrella of his role model, Yasser Arafat. He moved up the chain of command in 1995 when Arafat and Barghouti founded Tanzim, a paramilitary arm of Fatah. Barghouti was regarded as the Tanzim?s commander with Arafat?s full support ? so much so, that when Barghouti lost a Tanzim election, Arafat negated the election.

As the head of Fatah, Tanzim and al-Aksa Martyr?s Brigade, Marwan Barghouti was the person directly responsible for planning, funding and selecting those to execute the deadly attacks against Israelis in the West Bank and Gaza.

The final verdict centered around one count of attempted murder for an abortive car bomb attack, the death of a Greek monk (an Israeli citizen) in 2001, an attack at a Tel Aviv restaurant, which left three people dead, and an attack on a settlement north of Jerusalem.

On June 6, 2004, Barghouti was sentenced to five consecutive life terms and 40 years. It is unlikely that the Israeli government will release Mr. Barghouti from prison should he be elected by the Palestinian people.

This is OUTRAGEOUS!

The 1987 Anti-Terrorism Act will cross President Bush?s desk again in just days. We must urgently appeal to him NOT to sign another waiver, but to allow this Act to become law.

THIS IS URGENT!

Please ask just one person today to sign the petition. This will be the last opportunity for anyone to sign the petition to President Bush asking him NOT to sign another waiver.

If you have not signed the petition, please sign today.

Last week while I was in Jerusalem, I was asked many times why America is not speaking out against a murderer running for the post of President of the Palestinian Authority. People want to know why the U.S. is supporting the PLO elections when only terrorists are candidates. I am outraged, and you should be, too.

Please send this to your entire list, and keep this going. This will be your last chance to sign the petition before we forward it to President Bush. If he does NOT sign a waiver on the 1987 Anti-Terrorism Act, the PLO will be put on the terror list, and their offices in the U. S. will be closed.

After thousands of terror attacks in Israel, it?s about time this insanity stopped!

More of Farrah's story:

http://www.nojihad.com/contributors/ethelred/cynthia/cynthia.htm

To every Westerner:

Learn to clean your own toilets, raise your own children, launder your own clothes, clean your own house. Let your children have jobs where they bus tables at restaurants, flip burgers, pick crops.

We've brought this immigrant malaise on ourselves.

Rublev-
I went ahead and posted as you requested - is that a site worth monitoring?

To 3812Michelle:

I clean my own toilets, raise my own child, launder my own clothes and clean my own house. When my child is old enough to work I will not dictate a profession for her.

I did not ask muzzie to come to my country nor do I ask them to believe in Jesus Christ. So why should I worry if some muzzie kid is offended by a Christmas play?

I don't think muzzies were too worried about offending non-muzzies when their kids put on a play reenacting the Nicholas Berg beheading.
http://www.terrorists-suck.org/why_suck/berg.html

If you want to feel responsible for this immigrant malaise, go right ahead. But don't blame the entire Western world.

Christmas has strong pre-christian roots and is important to christians and non-christians in Europe. I'm an atheist, for example, but like to celebrate christmas. It really pisses me off to no end when people try to change our traditions to pander to muslims while at the same time trying to force us to acknowledge muslim holidays such as eid al fitr. If people are so set on abandoning christmas and celebrating islamic festivities why don't they piss off to Saudi Arabia.

"how much traditions should change to accommodate immigrants.?"

In a word, NONE !!!!!

NOT ONE SINGLE THING !!!

Profitsbeard:
You took the words straight out of my mouth.. "Grandmamma WHAT BIG TEETH YOU HAVE!"... All the better to EAT YOU WITH my dear.!!" Very apt!!

The people that have the audacity to even dare to utter the words to change or ban anything from our heritage and culture to accommodate immigrants, should take their overbearing, patronising, arse's along with those that they wish to accommodate and get the next airbus to the land of the one's they love. !! A dose of reality might bring them back down to earth where the rest of us live, that's if they can keep their heads on their shoulders long enough for that to sink in.

I think such stories are just attempts by leftist anti-religious groups in Europe to score against Christian groups and blame it on muslims. Have there been an actual compliant by any muslim parent about the Christmas ceremonies, or did the school and teacher find it just too convenient to remove it on the excuse that it would offend muslims?

And why the Jesus Christ's birth story should offend any muslims? At least that is the part of the story that both Muslims and Christians agree on. If there is any difference it is about his death on the Cross, not his birth.

Being a muslim myself, I have never heard a muslim friend complaining about Christmas or finding it offensive. and by the way, Merry Christmas to you all.

Thanks Mike,

I think the site is worth monitoring because it is one of the few left-wing sites that doesn't systematically ban conservatives. If we keep this thread active, it will get people's attention. The very people who really need to get this message. Only when a critical mass of liberals comes to appreciate the courage and insight of women like Alkaliel might we actually see people like Robert Spencer writing columns for the New York Times.

If western countries will not stop this insanity,this time next year,they will probably have to remove all the great paintings with religious theme,from museums around the world,Louvre,Prado etc.
It`s almost like a nightmare when you know you`re dreaming and yet you cannot wake up.

I'm not sure I would worry about the culture being destroyed in the next 10 years. When a western city disappears under a mushroom cloud, people will eventually start to change their outlook on Islam and Islamic immigrants. I can see Muzzies getting deported in mass back to Muslim countries, for their own safety.

Japan does not import savages as immigrants. They don't have much immigration at all and they should not. Places like Japan and China will have their own way of dealing with the Islamic menace and they won't be so squeamish as the West when the time comes. Knowing how the Japanese fought in WW2 shows that they will not hesitate when it comes to spilling all the blood required for their survival. Japan, China and other Asian countries are not self-liquidating like Europe.

In the US, there are many religious schools, so one can retain whatever traditions and teachings the parent agree to. Where there are liberals as the dominant faction of parents, the schools promote Western suicide.

As someone has already pointed out, the choice of "Little Red Riding Hood" is ironic beyond words.

But just to be sure that we don't miss the subtle message in this lunacy...the story of a kindly grandmother and an innocent child being eaten alive by a cunning wolf is LESS OFFENSIVE to the sensibilities of Muslim children than the story of the birth of Jesus ! And some people wonder why there are so many jihadis?

Or as radical Muslims themselves might say, "the better to eat you with, my dear Christians."

It is a falsehood to say that Islam reverences Jesus.

http://www.studytoanswer.net/islam_myths.html