I seem to have overlooked this when it was published over a week ago, but it is still well worth reading. From Sam Harris in the Washington Times, with thanks to Fanabba:
Perhaps it is time we thought the unthinkable about Iraq. Perhaps it is time we considered the possibility that we will break everything we touch in that country — or everything we touch will break itself. However mixed or misguided our intentions were in launching this war, we are attempting, at considerable cost to ourselves, to improve life for the Iraqi people.Despite the numbers of Iraqi dead and the travesty of Abu Ghraib, the Iraqi insurgents know that we did not come to their country to rape their women or to kill innocent civilians. Every thinking person in the Muslim world understands that if our goal had been to kill Iraqis and steal their oil, millions of Iraqis would now be dead and their oil would be flowing. The terrible truth about our predicament in Iraq is that even if we had invaded with no other purpose than to remove Saddam Hussein from power and make Iraq a paradise on Earth, we should still expect tomorrow's paper to reveal that another jihadi has blown himself to bits for the sake of killing scores of innocent men, women and children.
The Iraqi people have been traumatized by this war and by decades of repression. But this does not explain the type of violence they wage against us on a daily basis. War and repression do not account for suicidal violence directed against the Red Cross, the United Nations, foreign workers and Iraqi innocents. War and repression would not have attracted an influx of foreign fighters willing to sacrifice their lives merely to sow chaos.We are now mired in a religious war in Iraq, and elsewhere. Our enemies, as witnessed by their astonishing willingness to slaughter themselves, are not principally motivated by political or economic grievances.
Except insofar as the Islam for which they fight is itself political.
Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for terrorism by Muslims must explain why there are no Palestinian Christian suicide bombers. They, too, suffer the ordeal of the Israeli occupation. Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers for that matter? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal than any we or the Israelis have imposed on the Muslim world. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific doctrines about martyrdom and jihad that directly inspire Muslim terrorism.
Read it all.
Note to the press, please understand what Mr. Harris is saying is true beyond all shadow of a doubt. There is no disputing that the current states of affairs with regards to Islam is the result of Islamic warfare as taught in the Koran and seen in the example of their spiritual leader, Mohammad.
To continue denying this reality is resulting in numerous victories for Islam, not on the battlefield, but in our western cities, where their presence is marked by an increased belligerence to Western values and ideals and increased determination to impose Islam upon the rest of the world.
Do not enable and apologize for their actions, the truth is not that difficult to see here.
Until there is a realization that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with any kind of liberal enlightenment there will be confusion in our approach. As long as there is confusion, they will continue to have some successes. It's hopeless to think that their societies will become anything like what we envision for them. They won't accept our outlook. We should leave them to their own devises. Why should we help them? You can't cast pearls before swine and expect the pig to say what beautiful pearls they are.
Islam should be recognized as a dogma that we can't abide. No sense helping people whose outlook will only turn them into our enemies again after they have taken everything they could trick us out of. Why do we waste lives and money helping when all we can expect in return is treachery.
German cardinal says dialogue with Islam not possible
It's about time!
Check this out at:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=33950
Tks for the link, O kemah jim.
No doubt the Wash. times is ridiculed by the rest of the lamestream media as part of some gigantic right wing conspiracy. So easy to tar something with the rightwingeer/racist/bigot brush. I look to the day when being part of the mainstream media will be more liability than asset in the credibility sweepstakes... :D
voletti
Did you read my comment as to why there are no commies-lefies in the islamic block.
Little bit of an eye-opener.
But in this fight we share the same enemy
Shiva
I did read it and myself do know something about the violent attempts the right has made in the past to stamp out leftism.
islam is an enemy beyond the confines of 'left' and 'right' as we understand these positions. It combines the worst of both - the worst of (right wing) religious extremism and the worst of commie-totalatarianism.
FYI, here are the letters published by the WA Times about this op-ed (he had no fans.....):
ISLAM MISUNDERSTOOD?
Edward Ott, Washington Times, 12/9/04
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20041205-123303-1953r.htm
I found Sam Harris' Thursday Op-Ed column, "'Mired in a religious war,'"
very disturbing. I thought for a moment, "Am I reading the Klan monthly?"
This type of hatemongering and misinformation has no place in any newspaper
or magazine in America. All Mr. Harris has done has been to provide
propaganda for the Muslim extremists who want it to be a religious war.
ALSO SEE:
ISLAM MISUNDERSTOOD?
Dierdre M. Freamon, Wash Times, 12/9/04
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20041205-123303-1953r.htm
I am responding to Sam Harris' assertion that Koranic doctrine is
essentially violent. I hope he reads this so he can understand Islam
better.
In Mr. Harris' opinion, the "vision of life" in the Koran is murderous
and
violent. Has he read the section where God says: "God has sent down signs
to his servant to lead you out of darkness and into light. And he is to you
(all people) Most Full of Pity, Most Merciful." Has he read the repeated
mentions of God as "Most Gracious" and "Most Merciful"? Does
he understand
that the Koran is written in such strong language to wake mankind out of
its slumber of apathy and toward a more fulfilling and just life? Does Mr.
Harris know the history of the Koran?
At the time of the prophet Muhammad, there was severe arrogance and greed
in all worldly affairs. When the Koran mentions nonbelievers, it talks of
people so overcome with love of their status that they refuse to believe or
practice anything that might mean a loss of their power.
In a similar way, Jesus admonished the Jews who wanted to be seen
worshipping just for the power and prestige their outward behavior garnered
and not for the sincere love of God. The Bible talks of the everlasting
punishment of spiteful, arrogant, rebellious and perverse people. Do you
call the central doctrine of the Bible murderous and violent?...
---
ISLAM MISUNDERSTOOD?
Dr. Louay M. Safi, Wash Times, 12/9/04
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20041205-123303-1953r.htm
I read with pain and dismay Sam Harris' "'Mired in a religious war.'"
It
saddens me that such ignorance and bigotry can be propagated.
The Times should not, in the name of free expression, allow hatred, bigotry
and incitement against a religious community and a religious tradition to
become part of our national discourse.
Mr. Harris should make a serious attempt to understand Islam's sacred book
and learn what Muslims believe before passing judgment on them and their
book.
Again this goes back to soldiers learning the Koran and trying to understand the enemy whichis Islam.
Mr. Harris suggest in his article "Every American should read the Koran and discover the relentlessness with which non-Muslims are vilified in its pages. The idea that Islam is a "peaceful religion hijacked by extremists" is a dangerous fantasy — and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge".
YKWH AKBAR
Dear Capt. Yahya Radwan
...Muslims are never allowed to take an innocent human life...
Am I to believe your closing line? I think not. It is time for civilization to awaken to the nightmare that Islam poses for the planet. There can be no in-between. No negotiation. No lasting peace. No detente. No cultural diversity. No societal integration.
Islam is not merely a religion. It is a dogma which cannot co-exist with any other political or theological doctrine. Ultimately the day will come when the world must move to deal with the threat it poses.
Okemah Jim, thanks for info on German cardinal - someone to wake up the Catholic church or a voice in the wilderness ? The former, pleeeease.
Sam Harris is right.
I wonder if the Wash.Times received only anti letters, or chose to print only anti letters.
And Nomorelies, what sane person can disagree with you.
Also, Voletti, yes. We, on this web site, will disagree on many things, coming as we do from left, right and center, all religions ( but islam) and none, many different countries and cultures etc - our commonality is our recognition that
islam will destroy civilization,
aims to destroy civilization,
and must be stopped.
[ Using the term 'civilization' where 'modern civilization', or 'advanced civilization', or 'Christian civilization' ( or JudeoChristian ) is what is meant. PLEASE, would someone offer me a better term than any of the above. ]
And thanks Kelley for the responses to Harris's article.
Where is your input Shiva on the absence on lefties in moslem countries ?
Actually, thanks to all; it keeps my spirits up to know that others see islam in similar ways to my own.
And the term 'western civilization' seems to ignore India, Japan, China -
A new term please, to encompass all that is threatened by islam.
dby, I guess civilized world would be a term we could all accept. Or 21st century humans.
So, a bunch of Muslims knocking the Harris article, what's new about that? That Captain Yahya Radwan worries me though. Muslisms integrated into our armed forces? "Just another religion?" Can't we all get along? Infecting our armed forces with the ideology of Islam is only one of the ways the they are using to defeat us. Demographics due to lax and unenforced immigration laws, using our courts to force their way on us--CAIR lawsuits--and using idiotic academics, scholteachers, and weak-kneed schoolboards to infect the minds of our children are others.
Bringing "democracy" to the Muslim world via Iraq is an exercise in futility. improving the lives of Iraqis with our tax dollars will buy us nothing. The Islamic world wants to destroy us, and "non-fundamentalist" or what some call "moderate" Muslims go right along with that desire. What good does throwing money at packs of hyenas coming for your flesh and bones do?
The letter excerpts were from a CAIR e-mail.
Curiously, the excerpt from Deidre Freamon's letter left out a little bit:
"Before reading a Koran, one should know its history and the context in which each chapter was revealed and not think you can interpret it wholly by yourself. In Islam, it is a sin to read the Koran without knowledge of Islam and Islamic history. I hope I have helped Mr. Harris see the Koran from a different point of view. Maybe he will stop slandering my religion and accept the truth."
Yeeks. I think not! I bet that, although the MSM is largely oblivious to the insidious threat of islam, most Americans who read these letters will be creeped out by it and aren't buying the propaganda.
Posted by: unicorns62000 at December 12, 2004 08:50 PM
The letter excerpts were from a CAIR e-mail.
Curiously, the excerpt from Deidre Freamon's letter left out a little bit:
"Before reading a Koran, one should know its history and the context in which each chapter was revealed and not think you can interpret it wholly by yourself. In Islam, it is a sin to read the Koran without knowledge of Islam and Islamic history. I hope I have helped Mr. Harris see the Koran from a different point of view. Maybe he will stop slandering my religion and accept the truth."
So now it's a "sin" to read the Qur'an without knowledge of Islam and Islamic history?! And let me guess: the only acceptable "knowledge" of these hot topics must be derived from the mosque or an enlightened muslim. The Islamic version of history is a far cry from the real thing, and the Qur'an is an incoherent, unorganized farrago of senseless drivel that is not arranged chronologically or in any other rational sequence.
There is nothing difficult or mysterious about the Qur'an. If it says "kill the infidels", that's exactly what it means. The Qur'an is simple: all suras or portions of suras that posit benevolence, kindness, or decency (and there aren't many) apply only to muslims or were abrogated by subsequent suras.
All suras that promote hate, violence, death, rape, torture, genocide, barbarity, pillage, plunder, and jihad are instructions for muslims on how to deal with non-muslims.
There is absolutely nothing ambiguous, difficult, or mysterious about the Qur'an. It is an eclectic composite of myths; pagan legends; fantasies; plagiarized, convoluted Biblical scripture, designed to instill fear, submission, and blind faith to an unknowable deity in muslims, and compel them to hate and wage perpetual war against non-muslims.
The Qur'an is devoted almost entirely to hate, and it doesn't take an Islamic scholar to interpret its message.
No more lies: Much as I disagree with Islam and think it's a pity that some think there can be revelation given after the last Amen in the Apocalypse of John (it goes for Mormons and Moon-ites as well as Muslims), I say lay off Captain Yahya Redwan. He fought for his country in a difficult war, and as far as any of us can tell, he's back in the States with his military record intact. Any of us who are Americans should appreciate that first and foremost. My guess he is probably one of many Muslims out there who do indeed think that their religion is "hijacked" by those who declared jihad against the USA and feel no qualms about defending their country.
This being said, there are doctrines in Islam that can and do motivate the suicide bombers; and the Washington Times is to be commended for a rare bit of candor. However, maybe once this challenge is thrown out, someone on the Muslim side can articulate why breaking truce with certain parts of the Islamic world is wrong. I don't know it it will happen or not, but I am for giving my neighbor the benefit of the doubt for as long as possible.
Looking again at Capt. Redwan's letter to the Wash.Times, my guess is that he is trying to articulate a doctrine or Qu'ranic interpretation that justifies limiting his jihad to that of persuasion with certain classes of non-Muslims.
"Every thinking person in the Islamic world"- Just show me where they are, the "Islamic thinkers" ???
Dialogue is not possible, so slowly we are waking up!
Even our preachers are waking up!
Dealing with an enemy that doesn't have any standards is one thing, but how are our soldiers coping with women and children being used as human shields? That's the way of the muslims, they have always done that throughout their history and to quote Nietsche:
" THE WILL TO RULE -" that is what we are lacking in the west. Without the WILL to rule, this whole thing will become messier and uglier by the day, Vietnam revisited and again: Bush still does'nt know what he is up against.
Islam being used to inspire war and violence, I'm shocked!
SAW A GREAT PEICE ON THE HISTORY CHANNEL LAST NIGHT ABOUT OK CITY BOMING aLL THE STUFF THE CLINTONS TRIED TO STOP aRABS AND THE KKK WORKING TOGETHER ??
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/news/nation/10400582.htm
Posted on Sun, Dec. 12, 2004
Arabs tell U.S. they doubt freedom would end terror
By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post
RABAT, Morocco – Senior Arab officials attending a U.S.-sponsored conference to promote democracy in the Mideast emphatically rejected on Saturday the Bush administration’s assertion that greater democracy in the region would help end terrorism. They argued that the administration’s strong support of Israel made it difficult to undertake political reform or to stop extremists driven by hatred of U.S. policies.
“Let us face it,” said the Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud Faisal. “We perceive no clashes of civilization or competing value systems. The real bone of contention is the longest conflict in modern history.”
The unusually frank comments were made in a conference session that was supposed to have been closed to the news media. But delegates’ words were inadvertently piped to reporters in a nearby media center.
President Bush has said that establishing greater democracy in the Mideast would be a central goal of his second term. But after Arab backlash to the idea, the focus of the conference – officially known as the “Forum for the Future” – was watered down to focus mostly on economic liberalization.
The tough comments from Arab leaders illustrate how the initiative might be undermined by the Bush administration’s other policies.
U.S. officials in the past have rejected a link between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and political reform in the Mideast. Secretary of State Colin Powell made that point again as he flew to Rabat on Friday. “We can’t keep pointing to the Middle East peace process as the reason we don’t undertake reform efforts that are needed by these nations,” he told reporters traveling with him.
But other Arab officials echoed Saud’s remarks or brought up the U.S. war in Iraq, which is also deeply unpopular in the region. The Egyptian foreign minister, Ahmed Abul Gheit, attributed insecurity in the region to the stagnation of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. Libya’s representative, deputy foreign minister Hassouna Shawish, said “continued bloodshed makes it difficult for us all. I’m talking about bloodshed in Iraq.”
European officials attending the session also cited a link between reform and the Palestinian issue. German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer said progress toward peace “will lend all reform and modernization efforts in the Arab world unprecedented momentum.”
At a news conference, Powell later acknowledged that progress in Mideast peace process would help with political reform. “But we are not sitting here today saying no reform until that is resolved,” he said.
Reflecting the tension over the conflict, Morocco did not invite Israel, a thriving democracy, to the event, which took place in a government facility near the royal palace. Officials from about 20 Arab and Islamic countries in the Mideast and North Africa attended, along with members of the Group of Eight industrialized nations and representatives of business and private advocacy groups. In his remarks, Saud said Arabs recognized that the United States has a “bias toward Israel” but “the Arab peoples cannot fathom why these guarantees are transformed into unrestricted backing of unrestrained Israeli policies contrary to international legality.”
Arguing that the conflict was responsible for the “seeds of terrorism” in the region, he said “it remains to be seen whether for the first time we can be honest with each other and commit ourselves to settling the Arab-Israeli conflict.”
At one point, Saud recited a long list of Western and Arab philosophers that he said had shaped common values of Western and Arab nations. “These principles are far more powerful in their sublime inspiration than any weapons of war in inflicting fear and intimidation,” he said, alluding to the invasion of Iraq. “By returning to these values, you can win the hearts and minds of the Arab and Muslim peoples.”
Before the Iraq invasion, Bush had said he hoped that the fall of Saddam Hussein would help usher in democracy across the Mideast, and he has repeatedly pressed this idea in the past year.
This month in Canada, he framed the democracy initiative as one of three “great commitments” to enhancing U.S. security, along with promoting effective multilateral institutions and fighting global terrorism.
But the concept has, in practice, been mostly a discussion of economic issues, not political reform. The one-day meeting included a fledging effort by Italy, Turkey and Yemen to discuss programs to strengthen democratic institutions, but much of the conference was centered on such issues as million fund for financing for small entrepreneurs and literacy. A planned $100 million from donors. small and mid-sized business fell short, raising $60
During the public session, Powell said countries could attempt economic reforms first, but ultimately success was linked to increasingly open societies. “Now is not the time to argue about the pace of democratic reform, or whether economic reform must precede political reform,” he said. But he noted, “Countries with active political participation by all people tend to enjoy greater investment, economic growth and educational excellence. In short, political and economic freedom go hand in hand.”
Gheit, the Egyptian foreign minister, said he resisted the notion that ” he “reform” was necessary in the Arab world. “I prefer the word ‘modernity,’ said, saying reform means something is wrong and need to be fixed.
The conference has been controversial in Morocco. The day before it started, L’Economiste, a conservative business publication, published a front-page editorial cartoon on the conference depicting a U.S. soldier pointing a machine gun at an Arab man on the ground. In a quote the cartoon attributes to Powell, the soldier sneers: “I hope we can come to an understanding of the need for reform and modernization of the broader Middle East and North Africa region.”
IT IS GOING TO GET UGLY!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen
PS
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/12/13/135700.shtml
Reprinted from NewsMax.com
Monday, Dec. 13, 2004 1:48 p.m. EST
French Thought Police Ban 'Christian' Chocolate
France's latest attack on freedom of religion: The thought police have outlawed Christmas chocolates in the government school monopolies.
"It's an unhealthy political affair. Absolutely regrettable," said Andre Delattre, mayor of Coudekerque-Branche, which has shipped traditional chocolates shaped like crosses and St. Nicholas to schools for 11 years.
"What's the point? It's the children who are being penalized for this difference of opinion," he said. "They've been deprived of a festive moment."
Bruno Frappat, editor of the Catholic daily La Croix, wrote: "In 1968, the slogan was, 'It's forbidden to forbid.' In 2004,it 's, 'Forbidding is a must.' And one of the phobias most in vogue is Catho-phobia."
This most recent assault on Christmas is part of "Jackass" Chirac's war on religious symbols, including Christian crucifixes, Muslim head scarves, Sikh turbans and Jewish skullcaps.
" By returning to these values we can win the hearts and minds of Arabs and Muslims..." Blah blah balh!
We can not and we will not ever win the "hearts and minds" of the Arab and Islamic peoples..
This is all fantasy and hollow babble. What are they doing to win our 'hearts and minds'?
This is the war against Islam, and Islam is Terror.
Europe has fought this war for 1350 years, and only beause we have forgotten our history do we have this problem now, caused by massive infiltration of the undesirables with their murderous ideology.
Any discussion or dialogue must not be with them, but only among ourselves in order to rid ourselves of this cancer.