This story is surprising on many levels. Chief among them are Prince Charles's involvement itself; second is the fact that everyone involved seems to take for granted that there is indeed a death penalty in Islam for those who leave it. There is, of course, but when was the last time you heard a Muslim in the West admit it? But ultimately the fact that the indomitable and heroic Patrick Sookhdeo was unhappy with the outcome indicates that the meeting was essentially worthless, or worse. From The Telegraph via The Age, with thanks to all who sent this in:
Prince Charles is brokering efforts to end the Muslim death penalty on converts to other faiths, it emerged yesterday.He held a private summit of Christian and Muslim leaders at Clarence House this month to explore the centuries-old Islamic law under which apostates face persecution and even death.
His intervention follows mounting anger at the treatment in a number of Islamic states of Muslims who have converted to Christianity.
As an advocate of inter-faith dialogue, the Prince has come under pressure to criticise the religious law that, campaigners say, has resulted in hundreds of executions in countries from Iran to Sudan.
Among the Christians at the confidential meeting was an Anglican archbishop from a part of Nigeria where Islamic Sharia law is enforced.
Others included the Bishop of London, the Right Reverend Richard Chartres, and the Pakistani-born Bishop of Rochester, the Right Reverend Michael Nazir-Ali.
It is believed the Muslim group, which included the Islamic scholar Zaki Badawi, cautioned the Prince and other non-Muslims against speaking publicly on the issue.
It argued that Islamic moderates could have more influence on the traditional position if the debate remained largely internal.
A member of the Christian group said on Friday that he was "very, very unhappy" about the outcome. Patrick Sookhdeo, the international director of the Barnabus Fund, which campaigns on behalf of persecuted Christians abroad, stressed that he was speaking on the record only because details of the meeting had already leaked.
He urged the Prince and Muslim leaders in Britain to criticise openly the traditional Islamic law on apostasy, calling for it to be abolished throughout the world.
"My view, and I think the other Christians shared it, is that when something is wrong it must be stated as a wrong."
Wow, first Gaddafi tells the truth, and then Prince Charles speaks out for apostates. There really is a Santa after all.
Sorry to go OT so early:
Fellow JW/Dwers:
I don't know how many of you visit LGF, but I just HAVE to post this story I read there. You may see this on a couple of threads; I apologize in advance for the repetition.
The sentiment accompanying this story that I wish to convey to you is . . . Merry Christmas.
CGW
thursday, december 16, 2004
Hearts and Minds
Go read this post at BlackFive from a Marine Gunnery Sergeant in Iraq, and know that we have friends: The Heart of America.
As you know, I asked for toys for the Iraqi children over here and several people (Americans that support us) sent them over by the box. On each patrol we take through the city, we take as many toys as will fit in our pockets and hand them out as we can. The kids take the toys and run to show them off as if they were worth a million bucks. We are as friendly as we can be to everyone we see, but especially so with the kids. Most of them don’t have any idea what is going on and are completely innocent in all of this.
On one such patrol, our lead security vehicle stopped in the middle of the street. This is not normal and is very unsafe, so the following vehicles began to inquire over the radio. The lead vehicle reported a little girl sitting in the road and said she just would not budge. The command vehicle told the lead to simply go around her and to be kind as they did. The street was wide enough to allow this maneuver and so they waved to her as they drove around.
As the vehicles went around her, I soon saw her sitting there and in her arms she was clutching a little bear that we had handed her a few patrols back. Feeling an immediate connection to the girl, I radioed that we were going to stop. The rest of the convoy paused and I got out the make sure she was OK. The little girl looked scared and concerned, but there was a warmth in her eyes toward me. As I knelt down to talk to her, she moved over and pointed to a mine in the road.
Immediately a cordon was set as the Marine convoy assumed a defensive posture around the site. The mine was destroyed in place.
It was the heart of an American that sent that toy. It was the heart of an American that gave that toy to that little girl. It was the heart of an American that protected that convoy from that mine. Sure, she was a little Iraqi girl and she had no knowledge of purple mountain’s majesty or fruited plains. It was a heart of acceptance, of tolerance, of peace and grace, even through the inconveniences of conflict that saved that convoy from hitting that mine. Those attributes are what keep Americans hearts beating. She may have no affiliation at all with the United States, but she knows what it is to be brave and if we can continue to support her and her new government, she will know what it is to be free. Isn’t that what Americans are, the free and the brave?
If you sent over a toy or a Marine (US Service member) you took part in this. You are a reason that Iraq has to believe in a better future.
Prince Chuck has *alls after all. Wonder if this will be picked up by the msm and speculated upon by those far and near. I'll not hold my breath.
I found this little gem concerning apostasy in the 'friendly' simplified guide to the Koran - "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Koran,' by Shaykh Muhammad Sarwar (he of the Islamic Institute of New York) and Brandon Toropov. This book can be found in the religion section of any large bookshop, and many of you will be familiar with the series by Alpha Books, which has dealt with everything from weather to weight-lifting. So from Chapter 13 'Putting the Faith into Practice' here is Sarwar's note on apostasy in Islam;
"If a Muslim rejects in disbelief any of the basic principles or any matter that all Muslims unanimously accept and practice, he will be considered and apostate and non-Muslim. Apostasy is a crime comparable to high treason in contemporary law. AN APOSTATE IS SUBJECT TO CAPITAL PUNISHMENT; in certain cases, repentence is acceptable. Apostasy is not simple carelessness or inattentiveness. It involves the concious rejection of the core principles of the faith. It is an extremely serious offence."
So there you go, Islamic law makes POLITICAL demands of the highest degree of it's adherents and those unfortunate enough to be born Muslim. Now, apart from the fact that Sarwar's Taqiyya skills are in definite need of a little honing, how the hell did his co-writer Toropov and the series editors Jennifer Chisholm and associates allow this evil rubbish to pass. Did any of them actually read the book?
bj:
The MSM is hastening its irrelevance. Pretty soon, the better news outlets are gonna become symbiotic with open source journalism (a.k.a. blogging).
The MSM strabglehold is hard to understand for an avid free-marketer like myself. If there exists a niche for the truth (as much as 51% of the US population) then why not grab the opportunity and cater to these folks? This more than anything else proves that media markets are anything but free. Fox has a mixed record as it's succumbed to the lamestream media disease more than once before.
As for Charles' efoorts, I'll laud them. Even the MSM finds it hard to ignore news-worthy things (not that they wouldn't try) done by the likes of high-profile people - like Charles and Bush.
Voletti
I think that Prince Charles might need to get extra bodyguards.
The Christian Bible, in what they call the 'Old Testament," also has penalties of death for those who fall away from the faith, as well as advocating stoning to death as punishments for certain crimes.
The Jews and the Christians got over it. I see no reason the Muslims can't do the same, although we can't force it on them.
He might get a few extra minders, but really they cant kill him its just to out there to kill Prince Charles, they wouldn't dare, hes hopefully free to speak alot about it.............. but then maybe not
Dean: "We can't force it on them"? Are you mad? Of course we can bloody force it on them. It is a policy no different from the mandate of death for the Jews by the Nazis, nor of communists for non-communists in Stalinist Russia. I'll say it again: it is no different. We opposed these things too - but far, far too late. It is time to make those who would kill non-believers pay for their crimes too. We have EVERY RIGHT to force it on them, and if they refuse to accept it, to blow them to hell. Consider the parallels. All we ask is that apostates are allowed to live. If the faith of the islamic faithful is so strong, if their system is so just, if their way is so RIGHT, there there won't BE any apostates and so they have nothing to fear. Those people (ALL of them) that mandate death for apostacy need to be cut down, every last one. If that included the entire islamic world, then so be it, for it would be a world of sheer fascism. If every single muslim in every single city of the Middle East stood up and said "No! we will reserve the right to murder apostates" then we reserve the right to bomb them into submission. Period.
Geoff
One of the best things to come out of this is the effect it may have on Prince Charles.
In the past Charles has been known, as have so many of those in old Londinium whose moral boundaries are set by economic ones, for his arabophilia, the same kind that infected many British in Mandatory Palestine, who preferred the local color of the Arab elite to what they saw as the far-too-egalitarian, nay socialistic, Jews. One can detect that arabophilia in Charles' extravagant eulogy for the "plucky little king" (also a great favorite of Anthony Lewis), the late King Hussein of Jordan. Or in his delight in Sultan Qaboos of Oman, who is a better object of affection, not least because Sultan Qaboos has been on the receiving end of Saudi bullying (as in Saudi support for the Dhufar rebellion), has relied sensibly on the British to train and lead his forces, and has stoutly refused to give himself the rise in rank that so many rulers of much smaller states (as the petty sheikhdoms of Bahrain or Qatar) have allowed themselves, to comical effect.
If those who through no fault of their own were born into the "Army of Islam," and who defected from that army, are now ready, willing, able to testify as to what that army teaches, and what it is planning, perhaps Prince Charles will be a bit less enthusiastic than he has in the past about Islam.
Any consciousness-raising among the royals, and the swells, and those buying their shirts bespoke on Jermyn Street, and the huntin' and shootin' crowd, some of whom have profited mightily from all the Arab money from the Gulf, and who should be somewhat embarrassed about their role in selling off some of the best addresses in London and surrounding counties.
But it is an Islamic tide that now threatens all of the United Kingdom, and all of Europe. And the smiles and receptions, and high-class call girls, and all the rest routinely sent as thank-you gifts by Gulf Arabs to their English hirelings, whether Members of Parliament, or members of the press, or simply estate agents who have done a good job in finding the very best Stately Home for some well-dressed, but mentally primitive prince.
It is one thing to sell off this or that house and messuage. It is quite another to sell off, or sell out, your entire country and civilisation.
Prince Charles may have begun to ponder the rude lesson in Muslim intolerance, Muslim violence, Muslim hatred for the freedom of individual conscience, that he very likely was not aware of before. One hopes that the rude lesson sticks.
And as for those fixers, estate agents, public-relations men, upper-class pimps, members of Parliament who have been working assiduously, over the past 30 years, for their Arab paymasters -- at this point, all that kissing has to stop. If you still want to enjoy that loot, in an England or United Kingdom that it will still be worth living in.
I fully understand the Prince's guilt over betraying and then losing one of the 20th century's most unique women, and perhaps he thinks he can actually remove some of his conscience's sting as wll as dig out such a spiritual 'landmine' from the Koran.
And, perhaps, accomplish something 'serious' with his so-far toffey and polo life-
...but, does the expression 'carrying coal to Newcastle' ring anything in the Prince's belfry?
I wish him luck, and, of course, he has bodyguards when the Rushdie-esque reaction erupts.
I think apostates to Islam deserve sanctuary- centuries before their migrating persecutors.
In the words of Aristotle:
"The conditions under which a thing may...come into fully realized form as a result of thought are...: someone must wish it to come into being; there must be no external obstacle; and ...there must be no obstacle inside it."
The 'wish' won't go far with the death penalty as the 'extrenal obstacle'. That little worry can create and inner impediment, as well.
Stopping many from abandoning a faith too bent on the sword.
Freedom of soul is the essence of a serious faith.
Ergo?
President Bush keeps on saying that islam is a religion of peace,but he is not stupid,actually he is a very smart person;he knows that time will soon come when he could call islam by its true name.
On the other hand,at least until now,prince Charles has shown a deep sympathy and admiration for islam,and with no disrespect,princess Diana also liked arabs/muslims.
But times are changing fast,muslims in Britain become more and more agressive as their number increase,and everyone,including the socialist politicians and prince Charles,know something dramatic has to be done about it...the media will hopefully catch the drift and will start reporting on the matter,in a more realistic way.
Compliments on your post above, Hugh! You certainly do know your Arabs!
Let's hope that Prince Charles now finds something to do with his life and rediscovers the faith he was born into--the one he's supposed to defend.
Dean - why the bloody hell cant we force it onto them? Dont you think they would force their barbaric murdering bullshit onto us if they possibly could?
In fact, that's exactly what they are trying to do in every Western country.
I hope this is true about Charles, because he has shown nothing but sympathy for Muslims until now - some iman even claimed that Charles converted to Islam.
What was that old song about 'Selling England by the pound'?
Good for Prince Charles! I'm surprised and pleased. For a long time, his flirtations with Islam made me feel that it was all for the best that the government of George III refused to listen to Edmund Burke, the Evangelical Party in the Kirk of Scotland, and other British voices urging a modus vivendi with us rebellious colonists.
However, this time, I really wish His Royal Highness the best of a kindly Providence (I don't believe in luck) in convincing the mullahs that killing apostates isn't cricket.
I think that there should be an International Apostacy Day, with Prince Charles being the patron.
Michelle: You took the words out of my mouth! My words exactly!
Hearts and minds...!?