This morning FrontPage carries a Symposium on women's rights in Islam. This is actually the second Symposium on this topic in which I have participated; the first two Muslim participants dropped out after the first round of responses from Ali Sina and me. This one, which is quite lengthy, carries this introduction:
Does Islam have the keys within itself to liberate women within Muslim social structures? To discuss this issue with us today, Frontpage Symposium has assembled a distinguished panel. On the side of the possibility of a feminist Islam, joining us today are:Mohamed El-Mallah, a board member of Al-Ittihad Mosque in Vista, former board member of Islamic Center of San Diego, and an associate member of the Muslim American Society. A native of Egypt who migrated to the U.S. seven years ago, he is an activist in the Muslim Community of San Diego who has given many series of presentations on Islamic History,
and
Julia Roach, a UCSD student currently pursuing a bachelor's in literatures of the world, specializing in gender issues and women in literature. She converted to Islam in 2003.
On the side of Islam being mutually exclusive with women’s rights, we are joined by:
Ali Sina, the founder of Faith Freedom International (www.faithfreedom.org), a movement of ex-Muslims created to provide support for those who want to leave Islam and give factual information about Islam for others,
and
Robert Spencer, the director of Jihad Watch and the author of Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West (Regnery Publishing), and Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World’s Fastest Growing Faith (Encounter Books).
It is a heated and revealing exchange. Ali Sina in particular is devastatingly effective. Read it all, or as much you have time for. Here is just a little bit from my closing remarks:
Spencer: Ms. Roach begins her concluding remarks by quoting Tolkien: “What can one do against such reckless hate?” The idea that Mr. Sina and I must hate Muslims because we dare to tell the truth about what Islam teaches is a common calumny straight out of the playbook of those who revere as a prophet the man who said, “War is deceit” (Bukhari IV:52:267). Yet it was neither Mr. Sina nor I who put this question and answer exchange, complete with supporting hadiths at the Muslim Students’ Association website of the University of Houston:Question: We always hear the Hadith, "Women have a shortcoming in understanding and religion." Some of the men state it to insult women. We would like you to explain to us the meaning of that Hadith.Response: The Prophet's words and their explanation is as follows:
"I have seen none having more of a shortcoming in reasoning and religion yet, at the same time, robbing the wisdom of the wisest men than you." They said, "O Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) what is the shortcoming in our reasoning?" He said "Is it not the case that the testimony of two women is equivalent to that of one man" They said, "O Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), what is the shortcoming in our religion" He said, "Is it not the case that when you have your menses you neither pray or fast?''1
The Prophet (peace be upon him) explained that their shortcoming in reasoning is found in the fact that their memory is weak and that their witness is in need of another woman to corroborate it….This also does not mean that she is less than men in every matter or that men are superior to her in every aspect. Yes, as a class, men are superior to women in general. This is true for a number of reasons, as Allah has stated,
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend [to support them] from their means" (al-Nisa 34).
However, she may excel him in many matters. How many women are greater than many men with respect to their intelligence, religion and proficiency. It has been narrated from the Prophet (peace be upon him) that women as a species or class are less than men in understanding and religion from the point of view of the matters that the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself explained….Shaikh ibn Baz
I suppose Sheikh ibn Baz and Muhammad himself hate Muslims too? Or is it just I who must hate Muslims because I dare to quote them? Ms. Roach is dealing in a patent absurdity. This is a symposium about women’s rights in Islam, but instead of forthrightly acknowledging the obstacles and difficulties women face in Islamic lands and offering positive solutions, Mr. El-Mallah and Ms. Roach have denied, obfuscated, distorted, smeared Mr. Sina and me, and tried to deflect attention to Christianity. If this is what we can expect from Islamic “moderates,” the future for women in Islam looks bleak indeed.
I have read it Robert and of course both you and Ali Sina do a bang up job.........in fact, I thought what was really impressive was after the Islamic whitewashers first rebuttal to you guys, was yours and Sina's response.......smashing that.....really good and measured responses......you can tell our dear friend Ali Sina really goes for the juggler but considering he came out of Islam, it is understandable he might be more heated.........
And of course the same old tactics from Islam ..........the one that stuck out of course was the pathetically weak comment by Julie Roach (why the hell does a free woman EVER convert to Islam anyways??) when she quoted the great Catholic Christian Tolkien to portray you guys as being hateful!!! That made me SICK........notice how they ALWAYS try to shut down debate on Islam by saying anyone that considers islam less then savory as somehow racist???
I think the problem that Muslims suffer from which also the Left and Liberals suffer from is that they cannot understand how we can hate the Ideology yet not have any hatred for the person holding that ideology......in otherwords, we make that dichotomy between sin and sinner.....I cannot hate people that are stuck in a brutal ideology no more then can I hate socialist members of my family!!
And there really is the problem......liberals and muslims, generally speaking, hate not just our ideology, but deeply hate us........so it is beyond their understanding how to seperate the person and their ideology!!
Great great debate and hope too see more of these.........ANYTHING that gives you and Ali Sina more publicity is great for our cause of exposing Islam and helping muslims see the dangers of this ideology!!
Thanks
Devon in Calgary
Julie Roach made the comment that she would fight for her rights, even against her husband. But then she said that if a muslim woman was being abused, then at least she would go to heaven with Allah.
Then Ali Sina said that wouldn't fighting for her rights, be rebellion against her husband, thereby guaranteeing her a place in hell.
I really would have liked her to answer that question.
I think when she said that it was ok for a muslim woman to die, if she was being abused, really proves what kind of person she is, and what kind of person she probably was even before she became a muslim.
I think they used all the tired excuses, didn't they? Out of context. Misinterpretation. Moral equivalence. Now the latest is: hatred. If you don't sit there and profess that Islam is the bestest, most faaaaabulous thing in the world, you hate Muslims. You can sit there and pick apart Judaism, Christianity, anything, and that's okay. That's your right. Your opinion. All the power to you. But criticize Islam ... and you're a nasty, hateful person. It's the only argument they have, as they desperately try to defend the indefensible.
That Roach woman is a sad one. Totally deluded. Totally in the dark. Believing fantasies and fairy tales about Islam. It's amazing how converting to Islam clouds your thinking and your sight. Or maybe she was just stupid to begin with. If you're born into it, you have a bit of an excuse. Immersed in it from day one, your whole community, your family, your psyche. It's all Islam. But to go from the free-thinking world to the Dark Ages ... that's just too weird.
Feralee,
There are personalities who have a genetic bent toward submissiveness to a cult. They don't want to be FREE to make choices, they are afraid of free choice, so they want rules and absolute law to guide their every move.
It is a violent world, both from nature and other humans and people feel safer divorcing themselves from this world and turning themselves over to a 'higher being', obeying authority figures such as husbands and Imams, and seeking only the peace of heaven.
Does anyone realize that the Tsunami devastated the land of the Muslims, Indonesia? Are the Imams going to question why Allah would visit this great punishment on Muslim people?
Strangely enough, we are now sending millions of American tax payer dollars to help those who have promised us death! Hmmmmm...... We really do sound like horrible people.
Awesome work, Mr. Spencer and Mr. Sina. I found it so telling that this was the second symposium on this topic which you participated as the first two participants dropped out.
Ms. Roach was so classic in her responses. She was just priceless. It just goes to show you the kind of people who convert to Islam; they are the marginal, the psychologically needy, people who really need a family not a religion.
I am reminded of Doris Lessing's The Golden Notebook wherein she says something like the ideology of the communist party was almost immaterial to the women who participated in it. What was more important was the feeling of family and belonging that they obtained from working together for a group cause.
Well, gosh, that was an amazing two hour read. I'm supposed to
be deep into end-of-year house cleaning, but I just couldn't tear
away from the discussion. Wow, this is drama with
consequences.
Was that a live discussion, or typed in a forum somehow? It's
hard to believe anyone could be so well prepared and well
versed in a live confrontation. Truly I'm in awe.
Is the earlier symposium also online somewhere? I'd like to
read it as well.
The point about people converting to a misguided group-think
applies well here, and makes me nervous: I was a fully
committed member of the Unification Church for over twenty
years. Admiral you are entirely correct.
Mr. Spencer and Mr. Sina, thank you for your service,
eloquence, and courage. I pray for your safety.
Reflecting, Isshi.
Chances are Ms. Roach learned about Islam while in university before converting. No wonder she believes all that whitewash. She seems like the typical Western convert: doesn't know Arabic (Ali Sina had to correct her on the context of the arabic word for "beat"), hasn't read any other Islamic text outside of the Quran and some excerpts of the Hadith, she has not lived in an Muslim country hence her nonsense about sharia not truly being implimented, and knows next to nothing about the status of Muslim women OUTSIDE THE WEST. I assume she's a feminist of sorts and she's trying desperately to find her liberal egalitarianism in the culture of "the Other" but instead she suceeded only in deluding herself thinking that a stagnant 7th century religion offers more rights to women than Christianity or Buddhism (!).
Only one word can describe that symposium: bloodbath. Roach and El-Mallah simply got destroyed. They could not make a case for Islam being egalitarian if their lives depended on it. The best El-Mallah could do was point to verses in the Quran and Hadith where the text praised women, as if the Quran and Hadith are the only religious texts that contain approbations for women. And the best that Roach could do is say that the Quran allowed women to participate in jihad. Women should only be so honoured to become suicide bombers! Their taqqiya is so pathetic only a LLL dipshit would fall for it.
Not that it has any relevance to the argument, but I wanted to point out that Ms. Roach's quotation from Tolkein comes from the movie. I do not recall that the phrase occurs from the book; please correct me if I'm wrong.
She also misquotes the line, which was "What can MEN do against such reckless hate."
Just more evidence of Western Christendom's anti-woman bias ;-)
Or, alternatively, of the fact that Ms. Roach is an intellectual lightweight.
CONGRATULATIONS ROBERT AND ALI SINA!
Awesome rebuttal and knowledge of Islam. Ms Roach will be having hysterics and praying to Allah for help... Have noticed these ladies ALWAYS live in the West instead of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Am amazed that someone could be so naive as Ms Roach but suppose she is trotted out as their Western Poster Gal for benefit of Dawaa and converting other stupid Infidels.
Don't you know that they were about to have an aneurysm, I'd bet Allahu Akbar was caught in their throats, choking in rage.What a picture.
Mrs. Roach is a real piece of work. She's just looking for something or someone to submit to. Which is Islam. She needs the "family" of her cult and guidance of her husband.
I love their excuse that you can't use extant countries in the world that are Islamic as examples of Islam in practice. That's so weak and utterly non-sensical. It's just pathetic. The excuse of communist apologists everywhere. It doesn't matter how many bodies pile up in communist countries, it's "not real communism!" Ms. Roach and El Mallah are just delusional in not seeing the parallels between their denials that "True Islam is not practiced by any Islamic governments!" and "True Communism was not practiced anywhere in the world!"
Orwell understood that it is not the particulars of the totalitarian ideology that gives rise to slaughterhouse societies, but whether they are totalitarian at all. Naturally, thugs are attracted to ideologies that allow them to have absolute power. What happens is they either liquidate or push aside those idiots who studied or believed in the ideologies (theoreticians) for thier own sake. The thugs are more ruthless than the first generation that start the revolution. There is suspicion that Stalin had Lenin poisoned in the early 20's.
Another novel that deals with this phenonmenon, aside from Animal Farm, is "Atlas Shrugged." The genteel (spelling?) leftists were pushed aside by the more thuggish "second generation" who understood what was at stake.
Muhammed was the First Thug of Islam and many more were to follow. Islam is a totalitarian ideology and it's no surprise that totalitarian states arise from it.
There is no dichotomy between mind and body and there is no dichotomy between theory and practice. If it is wrong in principle, then it is wrong in practice. If it is practiced and results in a totalitarian society, then it's wrong in theory.
Roach and El-Mallah are just tools, or useful idiots working to bring a totalitarian future to the West and the world.
Outstanding job Mr. Spencer and Mr. Sina!
Just curious, do Muslims have talking point papers that are distributed to the mosques and Muslim organizations? Something similar to the talking papers that Democrats and Republicans use. No matter the format, the question, or location, the same themes seem to be relentlessly repeated.
READ THE WHOLE THING AT FRONT PAGE - SINA IS INCREDIBLE - LIKE FRIGGEN ZORO OR SOMETHING -- he was running rings around those two and even at that high speed his rapier tongue was so entertainly accurate as to cut the fastenings of his opponents clothes and leave them standing naked every time, no matter which way they tried to fasten and refasten. Maybe that metaphor sucks, but Sina was magnifico. Spencer was not acrobatically devastating in that way. He was devastating with that steady steely logic and methodicality of his. I don't think the other two knew what hit them.
Roach was both -- how can i say it -- likeable in her feminism and pathetic in her self-delusions about Islam. In my opinion, Sina did make one mistake -- he called her 'dear' repeatedly, "dear Ms. Roach" -- this "Dear Ms. Roach" that -- it sounded condescending, and I can certainly understand feeling condescending toward Ms. Roach, because she is such a pup -- very young and immature and naive. But still it was a mistake to condescend. At least it very much seemed that's what he was doing, though when she complained about the usage, Sina agreed to stop but defended himself by saying "dear so- and -so " can be respectful, as in "dear Sir". I suspect this was not completely candid. But it is a very small sin in what was otherwise an outstanding performance by Sina.