The tiny minority of extremists is growing in Indonesia. From ABC, with thanks to Nicolei:
The latest research on attitudes of Indonesian Muslims suggests a far greater acceptance of Islamic extremism than previously thought.The report's release comes as Australia's and Indonesia's foreign ministers host the International Dialogue on Interfaith Cooperation with the Muhammadiyah, the country's second largest Islamic organisation with some 30 million members.
Archbishop of Sydney George Pell will attend as well as leading lights in the Buddhist and Muslim communities from overseas, in the hope that the voices of moderation will drown out religious radicalism.
When Australia Foreign Minister Alexander Downer opens the summit in Yogyakarta it will be, he says, part of a campaign to see moderates of different faiths help address the problems of extremism and religious violence.
The Australian and the Indonesian governments have insisted that despite the Bali, Marriott and Australian Embassy bombings, the radicals like Imam Samudra, Amrozi and Azahari have little support among Indonesian Muslims.
However researcher Saiful Mujani of Jakarta's Freedom Institute now believes Indonesia's Muslims are less moderate than governments and academics suggest.
"The rhetoric claiming that there is no problem in the society…to me that's too simplistic, that's wishful thinking," he said.
The Freedom Institute's survey of 1400 people across Indonesia, found that less than 60 per cent of Muslims disagreed with Imam Samudra and Dr Azahari's bombing campaigns.
Sixteen per cent, representing tens of millions of Indonesians, agreed with the bombers and another 25 per cent refused to disagree.
"There is a significant number of Indonesians, at least half, [who] do not have a negative reaction to that and they agree with silence at least, or protect this kind of activity," Mr Mujani said.
The survey also found that the 40 per cent who had heard of Jemaah Islamiah, a third of them supported the extremist group, 25 per cent wanted Christian teachers banned in state schools, 40 per cent want the chopping off of hands included in the justice system.
The motivation spelt out in the surveys suggests American foreign policy, particularly in Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is feeding the numbers supporting radicalism.
Fine. What fed the numbers supporting radicalism before the U.S. went into Iraq? What fed the numbers supporting radicalism before Israel was founded? Why did Hassan Al-Banna see the need to found the Muslim Brotherhood twenty years before Israel became a reality? Why did it grow into an international movement in those twenty years? What fed the radicalism of centuries of jihad before then?
The motivation spelt out in the surveys suggests American foreign policy, particularly in Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is feeding the numbers supporting radicalism.
Anytime, anywhere, that any Muslim does something bad,
IT WAS THE JOOOOOS!!!
A pity about Indonesia, really.
Indonesia was once Hindu. Their names are even today sanskritised, their temples speak of a rich culture in the arts and music and sculpture and building. Today, Indonesia's the largest muslim nation in the world. Arab traders arrived in a once-pristine land in the 1500s and Hinduism which had (has?) weak genes, lost out to a rabid, aggressive, expanding islam which has a much tougher DNA structure.
Lesson for Europe somewhere here I guess? America's genes are made of tough material indeed and can successfully repel the advances of islamic DNA. And I suspect religion here in the US has something to do with that immunity.
jUST REMEMBER??
Malaysia Arrests Key Figure in Nuclear Trafficking
NewsMax.com Wires
Friday, May 28, 2004
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia – A Sri Lankan businessman accused of brokering black market deals for nuclear technology was arrested Friday in Malaysia, government officials said.
Buhary Syed Abu Tahir, who allegedly worked with disgraced Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan to sell nuclear secrets to rogue states, was detained for threatening Malaysia's national security, officials told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.
Tahir is the most senior known member of Khan's network to have been arrested since details about its operations to sell nuclear know-how and equipment to Libya, Iran and North Korea came to light earlier this year.
Khan was pardoned by Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf after admitting wrongdoing and pleading for clemency.
In a speech in February alleging details of Khan's proliferation activities, President Bush named Tahir as "the network's chief financial officer and money launderer."
Tahir was arrested Friday on an order signed by Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi under security laws that allow for indefinite detention without trial, and was immediately sent to a prison camp in northern Malaysia, the officials said.
Find your congressman: http://www.house.gov/
Find your senator: http://www.senate.gov/
Also:
http://www.numbersusa.com for immigration control
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Sight,Wisdom, and Courage to stay the course to Victroy[FREEDOM] to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen
Okay lets get 1 thing straight Islam is not a religion.
I'm a very tolerant man with friends and family from all races, creeds and culture but no way in hell is Islam a religion.
Islam = Cult = Jonestown = Brainwashed hicks
If the large majority of muslims are moderates why is there a lack of democracy, control of terrorism in muslim countries?
These muslims get the slightest bit enraged when anyone in the West says anything about Islam yet they do nothing no condemnation to muslim terrorist who defile the Koran and Islam? Double standard or secrect/silent approval?
Europe has too many muslims and will go the way of Indonesia, and Europe deserves every bit of shit it gets!
Here is a sign (of the times...)
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/103519.jpg
In 1973 I travelled through most of Indonesia. I do not recall any female covered up or wearing a headscarf or veil. The people, especially the girls- were very friendly, waving at us nearly everwhere we went.The same goes for malaysia and the south of Thailand. '73 was around the time of the first "oil shock" in the west.
In other words: Oil doubled and the Arabs, the Saudis most of all, had more money which they spend for Jihad...
They imported domestic servants and guest labourers from Muslim countries like Indonesia, Malysia, South of Thailand and Phillipines. While there, these people were indoctinated and all fired up with Wahabism and with promises of money and logistic support they returned home. That's how it was done!
Last year I went back to Phuket for the first time in 25 years. I saw the (Saudi) religious Schools everwhere, I saw veiled women everywhere ... and I saw more mosques and guys with skullkaps than ever bevore.
What else you want to know?
Posted by: sococm at December 6, 2004 05:02 PM
ROTFL
You get the Gold Star for the Day!!!
http://www.beecy.net/frank/
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Sight,Wisdom, and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen
And the most plausible answers to Robert's sensible questions: How about: the Qu'ran, the hadiths, and Islamic traditions themselves.
Among the vast number of historical subjects pertaining to the spread of Islam, and the disappearance, whether through murder, persecution, or the slow asphyxiation through dhimmitude, of the indigenous non-Muslims, the case of Islam spreading not through violent conquest, but because its adherents are all to act as missionaries in which Da'wa, the Call to Islam, must be conducted -- for in the absence of violent Jihad, it is the kind of Jihad that Muslims -- all Muslims -- can participate in.
How did the Hindus and Buddhists and Confucians of the East Indian archipelago -- present-day Indonesia -- become transformed into the Muslims who now dominate and rule over the East Indies, just as the descendants of Hindus, and in some cases Buddhists, their ancestors having been made an offer they could not refuse, now not only are devoted Muslims (whether in Pakistan or Bangladesh or in India itself), but in many cases believe themselves to be "descendants of the Prophet." For a rough analogy, imagine those line-ups in old war movies, with Kelly, and
Conigliano, and Cohen, to which we can now update and add Colon, and Kim, all
just a generation or two away from Galway, Naples, Minsk, Mexico City, and Seoul, but imagine further that each insisted he was a direct descendant of people who came over on the Mayflower and was a member of the Society of the Cinncinnati to boot. That is what a Pakistani calling himself "Sayeed" is like, though the humor apparently escapes many of those who boast that name.
The East Indies were not conquered by Muslim armies. Arab traders, especially from the Hadramaut, went to Java, and other islands, and wherever they went, Islam came with them (Hadramis were also important at the court of the Nizam of Hyderabad). And why is that relevant? Because Europe, similarly, is being conquered not by Muslim armies, but by Muslims carrying with them the most dangerous weapon of all -- Islam itself. Apparently there are a great many primitive people in this world, and a primitive belief-system has a certain appeal, not least because it is now a vehicle of choice to express one's alienation or hatred of the circumambient society, or capitalism, or Amerika, or The System.
And in all those centuries of slowly, slowly expanding the ranks of Islam, as the HIndus and Buddhists retreated to a few places, and then when the Dutch came in, Christianity was given a brief boost for a century, Islam never ever became something called "east-indian" Islam, and though it may, at the edges, have been softer than the Middle Eastern variety -- in its treatment of women, in the more easygoing nature of its observance -- in the end, the hard central unyielding core of Islam held, and now in the sixty years since the Dutch left, one sees only a steady hardening of the Islamic center. And the result, quite predictably, has been the mass attacks, first on Confucian and Christian Chinese (tarted up for the gullible West, in the 1960s, as an attack on a "fifth column" of "Communist sympathizers" when it was really an attack on the non-Muslim Chinese), and then, more recently, on non-Chinese Christians, those of East Timor (a land illegally seized by Indonesia in the first place, where the Portuguese had once ruled benignly), of the Moluccas, and elsewhere.
The next time someone assures you -- even Bassam Tibi -- that somehow, in some quite undefinable and inexplicable way, we need not worry about Europe because, you see, in the long run Islam will simply be "Europeanized" ask that person to offer you a single example of a place where there was local influence on the belief-system of Islam that ever changed the immutable texts of Islam, or their central tenets, as they relate to Infidels, to the necessity for Jihad and the spread of Islam until it covers the globe, on the insistence that all non-Muslims must be reduced to a status of humiliation and degradation (in order to "prove" the rightness of the Believers -- and of course to support, through the jizya, directly or indirectly exacted, the Muslim rulers and population), on the prohibition on many forms of creative or intellectual activity which, in some cases, as in Mughal India, the local Indonesians have chosen to ignore as best they can -- but the impulse remains, and can express itself, suddently and violently, at a moment's notice.
Indonesia is a nice example of what can be expecteed -- for since the Dutch left, it has been all downhill as far as Islam goes. The constraints are felt less and less. Just as in Turkey, now that the keepers of the Kemalist revolution have been steadily undercut by the clever manipulations of Erdogan and his supporters, in Indonesia the lesson is: Islam is forever, and it will keep coming back, with its full fervor and violence, unless tied down in a hundred different ways.
There should be no consolation in the what-me-worry idea that "Islam will be Europeanized." This is an empty and dangerous remark.
What fed the Christian Radicalism that caused them to form the KKK, that killed thousands of black people? What fed the Christian radicallism that caused them to colonize and enslave every continent in the world? The Muslim brotherhood was not a significant group before the creation of Israel, and it was not a international movement, it became a international movement because of the Judeo-Christian aggressions that the Muslims have suffered for centuries. Quit whining about whats going on in other countries because thats whats caused the disaster in Iraq, Muslims in other countries dont care whats going on in America, so you guys should not care whats going on in theirs.
What fed the Christian Radicalism that caused them to form the KKK, that killed thousands of black people? What fed the Christian radicallism that caused them to colonize and enslave every continent in the world? The Muslim brotherhood was not a significant group before the creation of Israel, and it was not a international movement, it became a international movement because of the Judeo-Christian aggressions that the Muslims have suffered for centuries. Quit whining about whats going on in other countries because thats whats caused the disaster in Iraq, Muslims in other countries dont care whats going on in America, so you guys should not care whats going on in theirs.
Posted by: u r all retards
Ah my poor retard. Christian Radicals did not form the KKK; it was formed by racists in the post civil war southern United States. People who believed themselves to be superior to another group of people and felt that they have the right to kill these “inferior people”. Much like adherents of Islam and the way they act towards people who follow another path. Not true?
Why do you always bring up Israel as the cause of all this Islamic Bs? What about the suffering of the Coptic Christians under you muslims in Egypt?? What about the suffering of the Orthodox Christians under the rule of the islamic Ottomans? And the way you muslims treated the Hindus is absolutely horrible. What a thuggish religion you belong to. Is the fact that Jews want to live in peace in their land causing Muslims to kill Buddhists in Thailand? Is this wall in Israel causing Muslims to murder and rape other muslims in Sudan (as well as Christians). Is the Israeli government’s defense of its own citizens causing muslims to murder Russian school children??? Get a grip Retard. THINK!! Use that brain that your moon god gave you!
O.T.
Here is a good article on Honour killings in the U.K. Notice how they say "asian" not muslim, but we all know who is doing the killings.
Police urged to reopen 'honour killing' cases
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/06/uhonour.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/12/06/ixportaltop.html
Quit whining about whats going on in other countries because thats whats caused the disaster in Iraq, Muslims in other countries dont care whats going on in America, so you guys should not care whats going on in theirs.
Posted by: u r all retards at December 6, 2004 06:52 PM
saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD] killing 300,000 Iraq people you approve of HUH??
mr retard you show you have no smarts when it comes to history of what the rock cult is about??
or you are part of the rock cult and a fool??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,SIGHT,WISDOM, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC ETRRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN
PS
THE ONLY ONES WHINING ARE THE LOSERS THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND THE LIBS??
the mussis are pissed about this??
WHY??
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140628,00.html
Supreme Court Rejects KKK Mask Case
Monday, December 06, 2004
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court passed up a chance Monday to consider if states can ban members of the Ku Klux Klan (search) and other groups from wearing masks at public gatherings.
Justices without comment rejected an appeal from an offshoot of the KKK whose members wear white robes, hoods and masks.
The Church of the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan had challenged as unconstitutional a New York law that allows loitering charges against someone who is "masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration."
The state's restrictions on disguised protesters date back to 1845. New York Civil Liberties Union () attorney Beth Haroules, representing the church and some church members, told justices that people have been allowed to demonstrate with masks before in New York without facing arrest.
"Even the most reviled members of our society are entitled to the fair and evenhanded application of the law," she wrote in the appeal.
The church describes itself as a descendant of the original Klan, and Haroules said members want to be masked "to reinforce and to convey dramatically its message of white separatism and white pride."
New York city attorney Michael Cardozo told justices that masquerade parties are acceptable, but that other events with masked people create public safety hazards. He said members can wear robes and hoods, but not masks that cover their faces.
The church had lost at the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York. "While the First Amendment protects the rights of citizens to express their viewpoints, however unpopular, it does not guarantee ideal conditions for doing so," the appeals court said in a ruling earlier this year.
The Klan members sued for the right to wear masks after a 1999 event in Manhattan in which they assembled without them.
The case is Church of the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan v. Kelly, 04-223.
and this has them in a down mood because they don't get any??
no short skirts or hair blown in the wind??
poor mussis have been lied to again??
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140670,00.html
Khatami Concedes Iran Democratic Reforms Failed
Monday, December 06, 2004
TEHRAN, Iran — Iran's embattled President Mohammad Khatami () conceded Monday he had failed to implement his democratic reform program, claiming he had bowed to the will of supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei () and his hard-line allies to avoid riots and preserve the ruling Islamic establishment.
"If I retreated, I retreated against the system I believed in," said Khatami to Tehran University students — some openly angry with the man they once saw as the best hope for democracy in Iran. "I considered it necessary to save the ruling establishment."
Some students chanted: "Khatami, Khatami shame on you!" Others yelled out: "Incompetent Khatami, may our vote not bless you!"
The reception was a stark change for the intellectual once so deeply admired among Iran's big population of young people. Many once carried his photograph in their purses or wallets.
Iran's Guardian Council (), the conservative oversight body of Muslim clerics that can overrule parliament, banned many of Khatami's pro-reform legislators and candidates from a February election.
Khatami has since been seen by many as an ineffective, lame-duck leader — but he said he chose not to boycott the elections to avoid violence.
"Either we had to hold the elections or face riots," Khatami said in the first of several farewell speeches. "I didn't consider it in the country's interests that riots erupt."
Khatami has complained repeatedly that he was powerless to stop hard-liners who blocked reform legislation, detained pro-reform activists and shut down more than 100 liberal publications.
Khatami, whose term ends in June 2005, even said he looking forward to the end of his presidency.
"Fortunately, my tenure is coming to an end," said Khatami. But the soft-spoken president did not refrain from blaming hard-liners and some of his allies for undermining his proposals.
"I have claims against some reformers who ... limited all demands of the people to certain political demands, provoking rigid hard-liners," said Khatami. "(I) have claims against rigid evil thinkers who failed to see people's demands for reform and instead of respecting (the) people's vote (they) began resisting them."
Khatami insisted that democracy in Iran would only come about if it was combined with an Islamic republic.
"The only way to save the country is to establish democracy," said Khatami. "The way toward democracy is through and within the Islamic Republic."
Khatami the optimist said he saw a relative victory in the heckling by the students.
"In Third World countries, powerful institutions stand against the people," said Khatami. "That the government is not seen as an arrogant body is enough of reforms."
Khatami said Iran's image has improved in the world after his 1997 election but anti-democracy measures by hard-liners disappointed the nation and helped prompt President Bush to include Iran in his "axis of evil" along with Saddam Hussein's Iraq and North Korea.
Khatami was voted into office by landslide majority in 1997 and again in 2001.
The Iranian parliament approved two of his reform bills seeking to check the power of hard-liners, but the Guardian Council rejected both.
FREEDOM IS GREAT!!!!
I LOVE MY SHORT SKIRTS AND HAIR DOWN AND SWIMSUITS FOR TANNING TO A GOLDEN BROWN??WITH WHITE OUTLINES!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY TO DEFEAT ALL ISLAMIC ETRRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT AND GIVE THEM COURAGE TO STAND AND FIGHT THEM AMEN
Indonesia is a puppet state of the Middle East.
Indonesian people are now (happy) puppets of (the one and only, as opposed to the'great' or 'big' or 'little') satan.
There is absolutely nothing more to be said, not here nor anywhere else.
Let's just move on, shall we...
Hugh: There should be no consolation in the what-me-worry idea that "Islam will be Europeanized." This is an empty and dangerous remark.
It is more precise, I think, to say that "Europe will be Islamicized."
Retard whines: What fed the Christian Radicalism that caused them to form the KKK, that killed thousands of black people? What fed the Christian radicallism that caused them to colonize and enslave every continent in the world?
What drove them was--and continues to be--a belief in Manifest Destiny, a desire to live by scriptural fairy tales, greed, hatred of all "others," a fear of modernity, delusions of granduer, and the love of power.
Wow... sounds like someone we know today, doesn't it?
That's where our agreement ends. Retard, I am going to ask you this as a life-long Florida cracker and race mixer. Who is doing the killing NOW? Muslims have been terrorizing since the days of Mohamed and have never let up. Stop trying to pretend that Christianity is "just as" bad as Islam; it's not.
Where is the Muslim rendition of Mother Theresa? Or Father Damien?
Every year more girls are "honor killed" in Islam than there were witches burnt in any decade of the Christian Dark Ages... furthermore, most Christians agree that the slavery, forced conversion, and genocide of our forefathers is a source of shame. Meanwhile, over at the madrassa...(do I really need to finish this sentence?)
Please direct me to any Muslim organization headquartered in a Muslim nation that criticizes their own Crusades, colonizations, and conquests. Including the genocide transpiring RIGHT NOW in the Sudan.
And right on topic, the Naz-ette that asks why I didn't abort my daughter whines: THE ONLY ONES WHINING ARE THE LOSERS THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND THE LIBS??
Oh Catherine... it's fun to pretend, isn't it? If he/she was a liberal, it wouldn't call itself "u r all retards"; but rather "u r are mentally challenged."
PLEASE CATURINE KEPT WRITTING IT FUNNY TO SEE YOU SCREAM???
Goddam, Terminator... that's so sad. What a shame; what a loss. Just imagine how many thousands of cultures have been ruined by the Saudi oil bastards.
So sad to imagine those young, happy girls, so vibrant and full of life, forced to grow up and see their daughters turned into sex toys for jihadi pricks. Never smiling in public, not looking anyone eye-to-eye, not laughing in public, wearing head-to-toe black tents... what a miserable situation.
Retard:
U'r comments are priceless:
I wouln't give a brass razoo for any of them.
May your shit come to life and bite you in the face!
If he/she was a liberal, it wouldn't call itself "u r all retards"; but rather "u r are mentally challenged."
Posted by: kj
LOL.. thats good kj
Note to "al u retards":
There IS reason to care what's going on in 'other countries'. The 'other countries' you tell us not to care about is a cover-up. You tell us we "should not care" only because you don't want us to know the countries we should not 'care about' are ISLAMIC. They export violence for a LIVING. And they have for at least 1400 years. They destroyed at least 10 civilizations doing what we now see they are doing. But Islamic people made the mistake of exporting their "religious" violence to the American people. They are going to be wiped from the face of the earth for it. Starting with Iraq. That is the way Iraq 'started.
Sorry, pal. The islamic countries you tell us we should not care about planted terrorist cells in 92 countries around the globe in order to begin genocidal holocausts or "jihads" like already they did in Rwanda, Algeria, and other less fortunate areas of the globe. Now we finish these bastards off starting wiht Iraq. Islamic nations' leaders like Saddam Hussein wanted to 'spread' Islam by killing our people and undermining our independence by training their Islamic killer-zombies and zombie-masters (AKA 'IMAMS')to kill and have them illicitily infiltrate the "other countries" you tell us that no one cares about so they can start killing. And you tell us we should not care about them.
I have a job for you "al u retards"...it's called a stand-up comedian....
Get out of town... Before I die laughing at you!!!
I will recomment reading Islamization of America and Unveling Islam. The books are available at http://www.islamreview.com
Dear I-AM-ALL-AH-RETARD-
I assume that is your true monicker, since you disguise it under the prejorative against those you disagree with ("u r all retards"),
If "Christians" were STILL doing (KKK)what you claim their idiotic forerunners did in distorting the message of the self-sacrificing, turn-the-other-cheek, he-who-lives-by-the-swords-shall-die-by-the-sword "Prince of Peace", your quibbling might make some sense.
But they aren't.
Your faith's maniacs, alas, and the ones who have taken up the banner of the anti-semites and medieval witch-burning Inquisitors. Admit it,
the present 'retards' are all those who believe the scurrilous, arrogant, woman-hating piffle of the Qu'ran and Mohammad's (hubp) Hadiths.
But, then, self-examination would require actually caring about anything but throwing slime.
Remember, he who slings mud loses ground.
Or, in the words of A.N. Whitehead:
"My one consolation is the knowledge of the inherent instability of evil."
Your bile will eventually shatter your spirit.
Joy creates; hatred decimates.
Oh for a Hindu Indonesia! Or Buddhist, or Chinese Christians or Pagans even... Anything but this malignant and deadly Cancer of Islam that taints everything it touches. Wherever Islam goes expect
Violence,Poverty, Overpopulation and Jihadis. Hugh, invite you to write about what is happening to Natives in Papua [not Australian adminstered part] which has been ILLEGALLY overtaken by Indonesia : Natives fight with sticks and stones
against terror tactics and guns of Indonesian Soldiers.
"40 per cent (who have heard of JI) want the chopping off of hands included in the justice system"
If that wish is realised the country will have to be renamed "psychonesia...Land of a thousand desmebered limbs". Will work wonders for tourism and their struggling economy. Walking through the "Psychonesian" gift shops will be like walking through a serial killers freezer..."hmmm...shall I buy the plastic severed leg or arm to take home? Maybe I will go for the severed head..is just a little more"
Thats Islamist progress for you.
A Stark Reminder
"Adherents of militant Islam account for some 15-20 percent of the Muslim world, according to Daniel Pipes, an expert on the subject. This means that more than 150 million people are part of the problem. To make matters worse, they hide among the moderates. They don't wear uniforms and rarely identify themselves."
http://www.meforum.org/article/168
P.S. Islam is pretty much the only global "religion" that HASN'T corrected it's wrongdoings throughout history.
Is Koffi Annan a Mussie?
I'm curious why nobody ever mentioned it.
To Kj: Yes it is really tragic:
When it comes to Indonesia one really wonders whether it's going full cycle to "Psycho-nesia"-
it was BEAUTIFUL 35 years ago! The people were wonderful and charming nearly everywhere, yes, perhaps a few areas around Jogjakarta (Borobudur) there was some sinister Muslim breeding ground-(That's where Amrozi is from)
You can always tell when you see how poor and backward they are, that's where Islam finds it's followers.
But most of the people were nice and really open, smiling and waving to us...
May bombs rain on the bastards who did that to them!
Is Koffi Annan a Mussie?
I'm curious why nobody ever mentioned it.
To Kj: Yes it is really tragic:
When it comes to Indonesia one really wonders whether it's going full cycle to "Psycho-nesia"- it was BEAUTIFUL 35 years ago! The people were wonderful and charming nearly everywhere, yes, perhaps a few areas around Jogjakarta (Borobudur) there was some sinister Muslim breeding ground-(That's where Amrozi is from)
You can always tell when you see how poor and backward they are, that's where Islam finds it's followers.
But most of the people were nice and really open, smiling and waving to us...
May bombs rain on the bastards who did that!
For the Retard:
At least 1500 years before the Arabs became Mussies they were already chasing the blacks out of their kraals in Africa to use them as slaves.
Cleopatra bought black slaves from Arabs, and Romans brought blacks back to Rome to fight as gladiators and of course to serve them as they were considered exotic animals. This went on throughout history and is still going on in Africa TODAY!!
Curiously, Islam- the language of their former slavemasters, is the fastest growing religion amongst the blacks today. Much is made of Negroes in America having been brought there as slaves. They should know their history and that it was Muslim Arabs that actually hunted them out of their villages.
Yet they all know that Africa has nothing to offer them and few would consider going back to the "Roots". So they blame the whites for all their shortcomings, but the history of whites trading black slaves spans only over a short period, say 200 years. Arabs, and later Muslim arabs engaged in black slave trade for more than 3000 years and to this very day!
The KKK is totally insignificant in this context. Their actions have very little impact on our society as a whole. Neither are we overly concerned about other (religious) sects, be they more or less excentric. That is FREEDOM...
What we are concerned about is ISLAM: Your cult, retard, -has many followers. Too many for comfort.
Your cult is totalitarian, dogmatic, bloody and stooped in the 7th century . The ways of your cult are not acceptable to us and we will not tolerate the spread of intolerance, intimidation, murder and Jihad. The life you're leadin' gotta go!
The Freedom Institute's survey of 1400 people across Indonesia, found that less than 60 per cent of Muslims disagreed with Imam Samudra and Dr Azahari's bombing campaigns.
1400 people across Indonesia,From a populatoin of how many million,
If these numbers are true then why is there so much killing going on today unabated and unreported.
When churches get burnt,and chinese bussinesses get looted,this is in the open,so the lid stays off.It is not the same in the small towns and villages,where the news does not leak out.There are still small pockets of Hindus and animists in Java but they are slowly being wiped out.
I cannot dislose the exact location,for obvious reasons.This is a situation that is happening in several villages not so far from here in East Java
In a kampong [village]Where my wife has family,it is a nice little village with not so much contact with the outside world.Before when we used go to the village,our car was always surrounded by kids,this was about three ago.I dropped my wife off and drove further into the village so as to be able to turn my car around.In the village is a big Mosque towering above all the small bamboo/clay houses it stood out like a septic thumb.I did not pay to much attention as I drove past.On the way back I had to go past the mosque again,and this time there was a TROLL in full costume.I could not help but notice the vibratiom of pure evil was so strong,I could it feel even inside my car.Later on the way home.I happened to comment to my wife,that the village seemed strange as there was not any children or dogs running around like before and I could not remember seeing the mosque before.Then she explained to me that as it was ramadan,and the children where not allowed out to play,and the villagers had to get rid of the dogs.Well what has happened over the last few years is a few of the villagers have been murdered and dumped on the road leading into the village including the village chief.This started about two years ago when a couple of trolls came to the village and lived in the house of the ring-leader of the local thugs/bandits,so every-body knows who is doing the killings.As long as the thugs stay in their area and around the village the police do not interfer.So the only way for the killing to stop is to build a mosque and the chlidren must learn islam.About two years ago the Laskar Jihad said it was disbanding,bullshit,they have only dispersed,some going to other islands here in Indonesia or back to Java to finish off the last remaining pockets of Hindus,Christians and non-believers.
The more I find out about the facts,I do not think that Bashir is the biggest culprit,just look at how much effort Indonesia is putting in to nailing the bastard,and with a little after thought.I do not think you have to look much further than Jakarta for the real culprits for the Bali bombings.Bali is Hindu,some thing that a lot of muslims in Jakarta are not to happy about.Jakarta,or their islamic thugs can not attack Bali in the same way like they doing on the outer islands,this would expose Jakarta for what it really is,they are strangling Bali econmicaly,by screwing the tourist industry,firstly a bomb and putting the blame elsewhere,good muslim tactic,secondlly making it very difficult to obtain a tourist visa.
BELIEVE ME THERE ARE MILLIONS OF GGOD PEOPLPLE HERE LIVING IN FEAR
Australia's and Indonesia's foreign ministers host the International Dialogue of Interfaith Cooperation with the Muhammadiyah,
TALK TALK TALK TALK TALK AND THE KILLING GOES ON
I have no faith with interfaith if they can even think of being in the same room as skum like MuHamasdiyah
RECENT HISTORY
Muhammadiyah In the wake of Suharto's resignation, Amien Rais, chairman of the Islamic Muhammadiyah organisation, has been the only political figure so far to openly propose himself as an alternative to B.J. Habibie for president.
In the international media he has been prominently featured over the last week as an opponent of Suharto, a spokesman for the student protesters and a potential next president. On May 20 the main US business daily, the Wall Street Journal, ran a largely favourable front-page profile of Rais, noting that "he says he has modified his youthful hostility to capitalism."
Just before the political crisis erupted, Rais visited Washington, appeared before a US Congressional Human Rights Caucus and held private talks with Clinton administration officials and business leaders.
The rapid promotion of Rais is a measure of the quandary facing the ruling class, in Indonesia and internationally, as they cast around for a credible alternative to Suharto. All of the bourgeois opponents to Suharto are tainted by their close associations with his regime, support for his policies and his brutal suppression of the working class.
Rais is no exception. He was born in the central Javan city of Solo in 1944, has a degree in sociology from the University of Notre Dame and a Ph.D. in political science from the University of Chicago. He is currently a political science lecturer at the prestigious Gadjah Mada university in Yogyakarta.
The very fact that Rais remained the head of the extensive 28 million-strong Muhammadiyah organisation, under conditions where all such positions were carefully vetted by Suharto and the state, reveals his close ties to the regime. Muhammadiyah played an important political role in sanctioning the mass killings of Communist Party members and ethnic Chinese that accompanied Suharto's seizure of power in 1965-66.
A recent history of Indonesia recounts, "At a meeting in Jakarta on November 11, 1965, Muhammadiyah proclaimed that the extermination of Geštapo/PKI constituted 'holy war.' Other Islamic groups endorsed this view. Whatever Islamic leaders may have meant by this, such pronouncements appeared to make the killing of Communists a religious duty and a passport to paradise to any Muslim who lost his own life in the violence"[my note 1,000.000 killde] ( A History of Modern Indonesia, p. 288, by M. C. Ricklefs, Stanford University Press, 1993).
Muhammadiyah is based among the traders, small shopkeepers, and other layers of the urban petty bourgeoisie throughout Java, Sumatra, Kalimantan and Sulawesi. The organisation is considered more sympathetic to Islamic fundamentalism than the larger, rural-based Nahdlatul Ulama and, in the 1980s, Rais earned some official displeasure because of his public sympathies for the Iranian revolution.
He was until last year chairman of the Experts Council of the Association of Indonesian Moslem Intellectuals (ICMI). The ICMI was established in 1990 by Habibie, with the support of Suharto, as a means of containing Muslim opponents and extending the limited social basis of the regime.
Rais is widely known for his public attacks on the ethnic Chinese, many of whom are Christians, and has demanded a reduction of their influence in the state bureaucracy, business and government. As such, he is a spokesman for non-Chinese or pribumi businessmen seeking assistance in competing with their wealthy Chinese rivals.
Even though Rais has recently attempted to moderate his anti-Christian stance, he joined in the attacks on Chinese businessmen at the beginning of the year, blaming them for the economic crisis. In a comment to the British Sunday Times, he complained that Chinese "parasites" were close to Suharto and called on them to surrender their control of the Indonesian economy.
As a prominent ICMI member, Rais had close links with the so-called Green or Muslim faction of the Indonesian armed forces. Earlier this year, he held private talks with General Prabowo Subianto, commander of the notorious KOSTRAD strategic forces and the son-in-law of Suharto, and Feisel Tanjung, former armed forces chief and now Minister for Politics and Security.
Early last year, Rais was forced to resign as chairman of the ICMI experts committee after criticising the government's mining policies and the operations of the Freeport copper mine in Irian Jaya. Peeved at losing his position, he later complained that he posed no threat: "Some people can't distinguish between cats and tigers. I'm only a cat, a thin cat."
Over recent months, he has spoken at a number of student protests and rallies. But like all the bourgeois opposition figures, he is terrified of the potential of the demonstrations to trigger a broad social movement of the working class.
He has consistently acted as a brake on student protesters. In March, Rais urged students to give Suharto six months to resolve the political and economic crisis. Now he is calling for students to give Habibie, who is little more than a front man for Suharto, a similar chance.
Indonesian Democracy vs. Islamist Fundamentalism
by Daniel Mandel
8/23/04
Is Indonesia safe from the ravages of Islamism and on the road to democratic stability? It is hard to tell.
The country has just held its first direct presidential election since the close of the long, authoritarian Suharto era in 1998. The vote, completed earlier this month, gave no candidate a clear majority and a run-off vote between the leading contenders — former security minister Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono (Democrat Party) and incumbent president Megawati Sukarnoputri (Indonesian Democracy Party) — comes in September.
The vote follows parliamentary elections last April, pointing to democratic consolidation in a previously authoritarian Muslim polity. The separation of state and mosque remains intact, underscored by the fact that the three leading presidential candidates — the third being former armed forces chief General Wiranto (Golkar) — are all secular figures.
Yet Indonesia remains challenged by militant Islam and ambivalent over the transnational war waged by jihadists, in particular, its own indigenous Islamist terror group, the Jemaah Islamiya (JI). That ambivalence extends to Megawati, who last year blamed the West for the "climate of violence" that fosters terrorism.
Megawati's stance highlights how anti-Western resentment, discouraged by her predecessor, Abdulrrahman Wahid, straddles the religious-secular divide. Moreover, even without a chance at the presidency, Islamic parties could well prove necessary coalition partners in a fractious parliament — and Islamists have sway among them.
The leaders of two such parties, the fourth and fifth presidential candidates, Amien Rais (National Mandate Party) and Hamzah Haz (United Development Party) have a history of illiberal statements and associations behind them. Assorted ethnic hatreds, anti-American sentiment and denial about the very existence of indigenous terrorism hangs heavy over Indonesia's political landscape.
Amien Rais has uttered anti-Jewish, anti-Chinese and anti-Western sentiments in the past. He has even strayed into Holocaust denial, stating in May 1998 concerning stories of 170,000 Chinese fleeing Indonesia during riots, "It is a crazy, blown-up figure, just like when the Israelis said that six million Jews had been killed in World War II."
The same month, he told the Asian Wall Street Journal that, as a doctoral student in at the University of Chicago in the late 1970s, he was "struck by the fact" that America's Anglo-Saxon majority had come under the control of its tiny Jewish minority. A few months later, he referred to a handful of Jews in Surabaya as "Yahudi tengik" (smelly Jews). He has railed against Chinese "over-representation" in the state bureaucracy.
Rais has sought to unite Islamic parties in a "National Salvation Alliance." His candidacy also had the backing of the Islamist-supported Prosperous Justice Party. It is currently led by Dr. Hidayat Nurwahid, who studied Wahabi Islam in Saudi Arabia before returning to teach in Islamic institutions in 1992. The two parties together command 14 percent of the parliamentary seats.
Hamzah Haz, on the other hand, famously stated in 1999 that no woman was fit to rule the country — though he later accepted a post in Megawati's cabinet. He is closely associated with JI's Bashir. In August 2002, Haz visited Bashir's Islamic boarding school at Ngruki, Central Java, where he declared, after conferring with Bashir, that there was no such thing as an international terrorist network in Indonesia.
Haz makes no secret of the fact that his views converge with those of the Islamists. In September 2003, addressing a meeting [of] Muslim clerics, Haz asked rhetorically, "Who is the real terrorist? It is the United States, for they have attacked Iraq. In fact, they are the king of terrorists."
The rot does not stop there. Even Haysim Muzadi, the chairman of moderate Nahdlatul Ulama, the country's largest Muslim organization, is in denial about local terror groups.
Thus, in September last year, Muzadi claimed categorically, "I meet with Islamic mass organizations every day from all over Indonesia but I've never heard of JI and the people I meet have never heard of JI either."
Although Muzadi, who happens to be Megawati's running-mate and could therefore be vice-president, described Haz's "king of terrorists" utterance as "too much"; he also repudiated his own words, offering the qualifier "It is just possible the U.S. commits terrorism, but not the whole country."
Add to this disaffection for America a lack of seriousness in judicial proceedings against terrorists.
Bashir, for example, was convicted and sentenced to four years on charges of subversion, but escaped conviction on treason charges. His defense — that he is the victim of a U.S. conspiracy and that JI does not exist — was accepted at face value by the court.
All of which suggests an easy receptivity to such views among the Indonesian public. Undeniably secular and displaying an array of Muslim opinion, Indonesia nonetheless cannot entirely escape the pan-Islamic resentments that plague other Muslim societies. This means considerable difficulties for American efforts to cultivate Muslim friends and allies. It ought to alert Washington to the inroads of militant Islam in even democratic Muslim polities and thus to the dangers to the long-term prospects of democracy in the world's most populous Muslim majority state.
Plus they have
A PRESIDENT WHO DOESNT WANT TO TACKLE THE TERRORISTs UNTIL THEY DO SOMETHING CRIMINAL
Very worrying news, we are speaking of 200 million people, 6 million catholics, 8 protestants, I don´t know what amount of hindus, Bali was the dark that was, this is one of the unique non-muslims islands and in addition they aren´t dhirmis, in Moluccas the chinese chirstian people ( both catholic and protestant) are working and have more money than the native, and suffers, using in addition his condition of infaithful, with Indonesia radicalized and Pakistan owned by jihadists( remember a country with nuclear bomb) the situaton will worse and a lot, greetings
Shiva [sala kuta]
So I was right when I said that there is something in your life that you blame Islam for.
You believe that "you live on the edge" (your words, not mine), rich and prosperous, ruling over hundreds of muslims but could become toast in an instant....in essence you feel that your livleyhood is on the line.
I am sorry to see your write that, there are a number of things you could do:
1) Leave, but not advised, seeing that your family has probably been there for generations.
2) Integrate, i.e. convert to Islam, at least you won't be a target, but knowing you that's not an option. But as a minimum you should at least keep some muslims as friends, make sure they are well paid and well fed.
3) Ensure that you have good friends in the police.
4) Keep dogs for protection, us muslims hate dogs.
5) Like the muslims get "people" in... you could do the same. Get some sikhs and americans in there. The british used to virtually control singapore by bringing in a lot of sikhs from India. They are well respected and have a wonderful outlook to life. I know as I used to live next to a sikh family in the UK, I still keep in touch with Kuldip & Surjit, who became my best friends in my school days.
So, hang on in there & don't allow bullying jihadist knock you ofcourse. I hope some of my points were helpful to you.
'What drove them was--and continues to be--a belief in Manifest Destiny, a desire to live by scriptural fairy tales, greed, hatred of all "others," a fear of modernity, delusions of granduer, and the love of power.'~ kj
kj, you almost got your description of kerry right. Delete the 'desire to live by scriptural (whatever the rest of that blather was)' and you are dead on target for the Democratic leadership.
Ourside of Your hatred of anyone and anything religous, I would like to see you Prove ANY of those contentions where Bush is concerned.
ANY.
Another example of the way extremism seems to have a habit of introducing itself to muslims more than any other religious group. Is this just a coincidence, or might there actually be some truth to the rumour that islams tenets are roots to terror and violence.
Naseem said: "So I was right"
The arrogance of Islam.
Naseem said: "when I said that there is something in your life that you blame Islam for."
Hey Naseem, please stop trying to rewrite the English dictionary.
We are not "blaming" Islam. We are saying global Islam is a total deception that is arrogant, violent, brainwashing, economy-destroying, harsh, lying, accusing, non-democratic, freedom stealing, and more. Ever look at an Atlas? Every single Islamic country on the face of the Earth is a security disaster. Does that clear it up for you? As a matter of fact you *routinely* exhibit these very attitudes in your posts. This is because you are an Islamist at heart - even though you know in your heart that Islam does you no good. This is clear proof you are deceived and need to leave Islam.
Naseem said: "Integrate, i.e. convert to Islam, "
Like I said, an Islamist.
Naseem said: "Ensure that you have good friends in the police."
Like I said, lack of security.
Naseem said: "I hope some of my points were helpful to you."
Sure, that's all you have Naseem are "points" you do not have the truth.
God is light and you Naseem, are in darkness.
Naseem, i just busted you.
Naseem is a man. Naseem is a mans name. Just checked on a Muslim website:
http://www.muslim-names.co.uk/index.php?section=1&page=2&letter=N
Naseem means "breeze" in Arabic.
My guess is that this is a Pakistani Muslim Extremist living in England, who came on here and pretended to be a woman in the mid flow of an argument in order to seem liberated and all that rubbish.
So Naseem you eunuch, why did you cut your testicles off and lie to everyone? How can you be expected to be taken seriously when you pretend to be a woman when you are a man? Whats going on LoL unless of course you are a transvestite and are genuinely confused about your gender.
You thought you were really clever eh? You sap! :-)
Spread the news everyone, final proof has been given, Naseem is a man.
By the way, I know a lot of Sikhs, and they detest Jihadi Muslims because of what the Mughals did to their Guru's, absolutely detest them. Ahhh, what a brave, great race of people are the Sikhs :-D
Let us know your state of mind, you Jihadi hermaphrodite ;-)
kafir boy you are bit slow
I found the sme info on another site
GOOD NAMES FOR PUPPIES
people wear shoes in Singapore,go there and check it out If yuo can get in.but be care-ful the have the death pnalty for users and abusers,
Ok, Mr. Boy,
Lets get this out in teh open. Whether you like it or not I am female. Did you also look on that same web site & look at the female names. Naseemah (which also means breeze). It is standard procedure in Pakistan to shorten names. From childhood I have always been known as Naseem and its great.
Now if YOU have a problem with that ...I cannot help you. Sure I have had my fair shaer of problems ...being called Paki, and being refused a boyfriend because of the culture....but I hope that you see me as a reasonably balanced person.
You say "So Naseem you eunuch, why did you cut your testicles off and lie to everyone"?
I'm not.
How can you be expected to be taken seriously when you pretend to be a woman when you are a man?
I hope to be taken seriously because of what I write, as opposed to what my name is.
You say "My guess is that this is a Pakistani Muslim Extremist living in England".
If I was an extremist I wouldn't waste my time here being constantly being verbally beaten up....THink about it.
And talking about Sikhs, my neighbour was sikh and they are good people.
So, I do hope this has cleared things.
yes I am KUTA SALA [slang for fucking crazy dog]
better that than to be a bollokless murderous muslim no brain
YOU ARE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM
"So I was right when I said that there is something in your life that you blame Islam for" ,but Naseem/Naseemah,you fail to say what you where right about!!!!What happen was I OPENED MY EYES AND SAW THE EVIL MONSTER OF ISLAM
Naseem the Pakstani Ladyboy
I agree with you, Sikhs are great anti Jihadi people ;-D
I think Naseem is a woman living in Pakistan and I think she does add some interesting perspective to our debate and understanding of Islam. I hope I'm not wrong about this.
We should expect a reasonable tone to prevail on these threads, as we seek to gain further perspective on the subject at hand.
Naseem also should not feel she needs to be defensive and overly sensitive as I'm sure from her perspective it is we (the Western world) who are aggressors. But please understand Naseem, that we in the West are being colonized and imprisoned by multiculturalism, powerless to stop this destruction of our culture, how would you feel?
Of course you will argue the colonial, crusade route in response which only causes the argument to go circular. So let’s just say that we all should not blindly lash out but honestly look at what is happening in Europe and America and around the world, and then see what role Islam has in any of this. Clearly, Islam's history from Indonesia to pick-a-place does not bode well. Therefore it say that immigration must be halted with regard to Muslims in the West, a cordon sanitaire must be erected around troubled regions of the ME and we should let the Muslim people conduct their own affairs as we carry on a business relationship without any attempts a liberating, giving aid, and embracing their cultural norms to excess back at home.
Naseem, I had a Pakistani friend, he told me the following: "I am tired of America, there are too many cultures here and I want to go back to Pakistan." he was also very proud of his countries nuclear capability and was not shy to tell me that "Jews are pigs and monkeys. “I asked him why and he said “because the Koran says so.”
Despite this he was otherwise a nice man liked to laugh. Is he an Islamist? I didn't think so. But the point I was trying to make is that at least in America, our culture is in transition and even immigrants are complaining about multiculturism. Top that off with Islam's greed tendency to want to take the whole shebang, culturally/religiously speaking and you can see why I want immigration to stop and Muslims given special obstacles to ever coming to the West if at all.
How would you feel Naseem, if Karachi was invaded by church building, belligerent Christians who said, to you, Naseem, we want church bells, Naseem, we want a Christian holiday and committed act of violence against your wonderful city murdering thousand in buildings and aircraft?
I would have to say Naseem would say no to multiculturism as my friend Mo did. By the way, Mo also wondered why the WTC massacre was a "Big deal". Did I shun him for it? No, but any reasoning I gave him was unfathomable to his perspective. How can we continue to absorb people who are otherwise nice in most regards when culturally their civilizational view is radically different from our own?
Thank you.
Naseem,
Ditch the Koran; adopt reason.
By the way, have you read anything about the Mu'tazilites and Ibn Rushd yet, as I suggested earlier?
If the Mu'tazilites hadn't shot themselves in the foot, and if Ibn Rushd hadn't had his work, including his studies of Aristotle, destroyed by his Muslim colleagues (and if he hadn't died under suspicious circumstances), you and the posters on JW might be having conversations that were actually interesting.
What am I saying? There wouldn't even BE a JW, because there would be no idiot jihad to "Watch," since your countrymen and women would be out there winning Nobel Prizes, your economies would be fluorishing, objective justice would prevail, and Muslims all over the world would be happy, rather than blowing up their neighbors for lack of anything more productive and interesting to do.
Mr Andrew,
Thank you for your wonderful moral support, it is widely appreciated.
You know before coming to this site I didn't know that "Infidels" could hate so much. My (limited to my school days) interaction especially with the English was OK, I thought on the whole they were fair minded people. My interaction with Sikhs was fantastic...they are a lovely people, very warm hearted people.
So imagine my surprise when I was attempted to be hounded out of JW and Shiva (that old goat) showed extreme bias ....based on a name.....and to cap it all he has hunders of muslims working for him. I mean what is a woman to do....I had to toughen up.
Mr. Andrew I agree with a lot of what you say, not all muslims want to come to the west and you should have "reasonable" controls to curb mass immigration.
I'm by no means saying that muslims are not at fault...and the west too have made mistakes by enpowering people like Quadaffi and Saddam.
Reform in Islam will be slow and our makeup will change slowly. Whether there is enough time only Allah knows.
I'm glad that you said that your Pakistani friend used to laugh a lot...it blows up Shiva's theory about muslims not being able to laugh...the truth is that muslims have few successes, they are treated like dirt and have little to laugh about (and Naseem's moaning again many will say).
One thing though....it is definetely true that extremists are a minority in Islam...otherwise there really would be a monumantal problem.
Allah Hafiz
Here is a question for Naseem: I was walking through
my local university's student union the other day.
There was a booth set up by Muslim students handing
out Islamic literature and other prosletyzing
information. The booth people were quite agressively
lobbying people walking by.... my question is:
What would happen if this was a non-Muslim religion
doing the same prosletyzing in an Islamic country ?
Yet, Muslims here claim they are being "oppressed".
Odd considering how minorities in Arab/Islamic countries have declined in number while Muslim populations have sky rocketed in non-Muslim countries. I think that speaks for itself.
Not based on a name,it was the way the MR.was used
YOU naseem/nassemah can be compared to a two headed dog that is so frustrated it cannot scratch it's arse so it bites every-body else
DEAR HUGH.....
How do you know the East Indies werenotconquered by the Arabs?There is little evidence to show that such a thing occurred of course but...
You have failed to mention the presence of Arabs in the Mojopahit Empire in the early 14th century. How did they get there if they arrivedin the 15th century as generally believed. Why were Javanese monarchs spreading Islam by the sword before the 15th century? Where did these monarchs learn this from? It had to be Arabs.
The real clincher is that NO ONE ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED IN JAVA At the end of the tenth century. No on ever explained the demiseof these great Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms. It is historically quite possible that Java WAS INVADED BY Arabs who had military bases in other areas of tropical Asia and used jihads to undermine this once-great civilization and in the process 'Islamicize it. The great eruption of the Merapi volcano ay have erased all evidence of such a historicalevent.
I do not know whether or not Arabs conquered, by military force, particular islands in the East Indian archipelago. And it may well have been possible. But in general, it has to be said that unlike Mesopotamia, Syria, "Palestine," Egypt, North Africa, Spain, Afghanistan, and India, where military force was used to impose Muslim rule and the dominance of Islam, there is no record of some large invading force, naturally naval, arriving to impose Islam.
But keep me posted about evidence of such early Muslim conquest.
In any case, Islam does not require an army to conquer, and that was my main point. If one is hopoing against hope that only military force explains Islam's conquests, the East INdies offer a counter-example. And if one consoles oneself with the innocent thought that somehow -- in what way is never explained -- Islam will be "europeanized" (and what this means is never explained either) -- the example of Indonesia, where Muslims, as they become an ever larger percentage of the population, become still more aggressive with the ever-diminishing population of non-Muslims -- offers a monitory example that should be heeded.
Naseem,
your time and energy in posting here is appreciated, at least by me, though it seems by others too.
Naseem,
that you are a woman as against a man, is of interest, though not more than that.
That you have been insulted in the street, called names, is painful, nasty ignorant stuff.
Naseem,
many, like myself, are brought up with the awareness that the way, religion, of our parents and community, is the right one, the one that others would follow if they understood, knew, and, of course, the only one that truly could lead humankind in the right direction.
Later in life, i, like many others, realized that there were many ways, religions, which were worthy.
I really am enriched by the knowledge of other religions, and pleased to enjoy my original inheritance knowing that other people get the same lessons, direction, faith, knowledge and grace, and that we all, even non-deists, and striving to be better human beings in an ever more ideal society and be worthy of G-ds love.
The only exception that i know of is islam.
You would need to know the richness of other religions to know the poverty of islam, you would have to know the wisdom in others to understand the ignorance of islam.
Harsh words, but true.
There are reasons why islam is not a religion as Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Janes, Mormons, Zoroastrians, Sabateans, Pagans etc. understand the term religion,
but it is nearly impossible to explain this to moslems, such is the islamic brainwashing.
islam is destructive of its adherants first, and the world ultimately.
islam is a mistake, a good idea that went very wrong from the minute mo thought he had the right to use the sword.
At this point in human history, this mistake is threating all that is best in our civilization.
dby
very nicely put
Naseem says;
""You know before coming to this site I didn't know that "Infidels" could hate so much.""
Granted, it is not easy seeing non-believers use such harsh words against the only God you ever knew, especially when they had the tact never to criticize Islam in public, or to your face. But is hatred of a belief system necessary a fault? Does it necessary mean that they also "hate" those who are burdened by Islam's beliefs?
Granted, some of the commentators get carried away and vent about "the Muslims" when they read something particularly outrageous, but what do you expect? Does any of the "backlash" against Islam come anywhere near what so many Muslims are doing all over the world?
I don't think the Muslims who condone terrorism are a minority. Andrew's account of his anti-Semitic Muslim friend gave me the creeps. I had a similar experience with a Muslim who helped me do my research for my doctorate. I put him in the credits to my Thesis. For his help, I am ever grateful, but he believes homosexuals should be "eliminated." How much does it take to make tweek this "quirk" of his and make him into a radical? I shudder to think about it.
Naseem, you seem to be an educated and intelligent woman, but Islam has you in an intellectual straightjacket that makes you mix intelligent commentary with foolish conclusions.
Fulfill your potential. Leave Islam now.
Regarding Hugh's statement: "Europe, similarly, is being conquered not by Muslim armies, but by Muslims carrying with them the most dangerous weapon of all -- Islam itself."
This prompted the obtuse thought that perhaps Europeans are now intellectually lazy due to the dizzying flurry of postmodern miasma that passes for avant garde now; thus, leaving them open to be just a bit curious about this odd and strangely seductive import called Islam.
Good people,
I never imagined that I would get so much support from so many people. Although it has taken some time I have learned that people in the West can appreciate another's perspective.
So, Dby, Rublev, Andrew, Gary et al thank you.
I may never truly belong, but at least I feel as if I have landed.
You know I have learned a lot, and I hope you have too. I was very interested in Waterdragon52 saying that Muslim men *& women* work in Canada and that they too have a similar number of childrens as the locals.....isn't that a wonderful start to integration...lets give it a bit more time.
I have not been to Canada or the US but have seen it on TV. I guess one cannot understand capitalism in it's truest sense without visiting the "great satan". So, I hope to do that sometime and learn more.
It is my sincere hope that the muslim can learn to live with the Infedel in a reasonable manner but currently there are too many unknowns, suspicions and lack of trust.
This coupled with hatred on both sides leads to a deadly mix of violence which has surely been with us for a time.
You must know that I cannot give up Islam, but I will surely teach my childrens tolerance, the right for all to live in peace and within the law.
It is true enough that the whole world needs to advance from individual country law to a set of global laws, so that all could be treated fairly.
I think one theme that comes out is that you still don't know whether you can trust a muslim who has been working with you for 10 years....and this needs to change.
Do people here who work with muslims talk to them completely openly? Do they go out with them, go to their houses, or children's birthdays (yes I know thatIslam does not support birthday celebrations).
Are there other examples that you can offer me?
Oh, and when I say I want to come to the "great satan" it will be for a visit and not to settle.
I wouldn't want to burden you with yet another muslim.
Shiva, you old goat, do you have some sort of fetish with dogs?
No offense, JWers, but you have fallen hook, line and sinker. Taqiyya and kitman are always in effect.
I never believe anything that comes from islam, its apologists nor its defenders.
Naseem said:
"You must know that I cannot give up Islam, but I will surely teach my childrens tolerance, the right for all to live in peace and within the law."
Leave Islam and you are hated and shunned by Muslims to stay away.
Leave Christianity and you are loved and sought out by Christians to come back.
Naseem, you tell me which is hateful and deceptive.
Naseem, your deception is that you think Islam is greater than Allah himself, and it is not.