The Greeks can't say they weren't warned. From the Zaman Daily Newspaper, with thanks to Anthony:
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan says Turkey is not prepared to negotiate for anything other than full membership which may be proposed at the December 17th European Union (EU) leaders' summit.The Prime Minister personally conveyed his concerns about the EU Term President the Netherlands's summit draft to the Dutch Minister for European Affairs saying: "We expect a clear date from the EU which will not allow for a possible second decision. We have done our part, now it is your turn."...
Erdogan noted in an interview with the French daily Le Monde yesterday that Turkey has met the Copenhagen Criteria and wants no other criteria. He emphasized that Turkey expects a clear formula regarding the start of negotiations. The Prime Minister also underlined that Turkey will not recognize the Greek Cypriot side just to start negotiations. Le Monde posed the following question: "You want to negotiate with the 25-member EU; doesn't this mean de facto recognition of Cyprus?" Erdogan said: "Absolutely, not" and explained that Turkey did whatever it could for a solution in Cyprus and said he thought the question was unfair. He said the EU made a mistake by accepting "Cyprus" and added Turkey will hold any assessments of this issue until the December 17th summit. When asked what Turkey will do if the EU stipulates new 'unacceptable' preconditions, Erdogan answered: "We do not see what kind of pretense the EU could use to propose new preconditions to us. We think that our expectations are objective and fair."
Oh, so they demand!
What will happen when Turkish women or gays or anyone else goes to the European court of human rights for whatever reason? Will Turkey just ignore any pronouncements that the court makes?
What if Turkey brings back the adultery law? How will the European Union be able to stop Turkey from doing that, once it is in the EU?
They're not even in, and they are starting to demand.
On the subject of Turkish accession into the EU, reminds me of an old Urdu couplet:
" There are times,
in the annals of history,
when moments make mistakes
and centuries suffer punishment."
The actual verses, for those who know the language, I believe go thus
kuch aise bhi manzar hain;
taarikh ki nazron mein,
jab lamhon ne khata ki;
aur sadiyon ne saza payi.
You know, if Turkey can join the EU, then so can Australia.
Not many people know that 6 days after Englishman Captain Cook discovered Australia, Frenchman La Perouse sailed into Sydney Harbour. In honour of La Perouse, a small piece of land in Sydney was given to France, so that a small piece of Europe is part of Australia.
Geert Wilders said that he would prefer Australia to join the EU than Turkey, so maybe Australia has a chance too.
Actually as an Australian I think our not being admitted into the EU makes the EU a club for europeans, which I find outrageous! It is all a violation of my human rights to be included in clubs on other sides of the planet...so we must be admitted immediately, then they should let in Botswana, Cuba, Mongolia, Antartica among others.
Well, I'd rather Australia be a member than Turkey.
LOL..I wasn't aiming at you Voltaire:)
You are right though Voltaire. Frankly if Turkey is admitted I can't see why any other country can't argue for EU admission. Expect the middle-eastern countries to demand similar rights of entry to that of Turkey, if Turkey is successful.
What does the EU want to be...a world government? Megalomania isn't supposed to be a trait of democratic governments, but then again the EU government seems to be more an authoritarian beurocracy than a democracy. I just don't trust the EU...it isn't democratic enough at the top which I find disturbing.
To obl r us & Voltaire,
I've recently read of Morocco's attempt to apply for EU membership.
Sorry for the bad grammar:..read about..
Welcome Australia, please join!
Europe, beware. If this is how they act BEFORE they get what they want, how do you think they will act AFTER they get what they want?
Give them a wide berth. The Turks have been trying to destroy the Western World for 1,000 years. Do leopards change their spots so easily?
"Welcome Australia, please join!"
The Ozzies could at least teach Europe how to kick ass and defend themselves again!!!!
The Turkish invasion of Cyprus in July 1974 was a poorly disguised jihad to "reconquer" a part of the Islamic territory (dar al-Islam) that was threatened by the majority non-Muslim Greeks in a bid to achieve self-determined independence. You can read it all for yourself.
Great link Hulegu Khan - and I dig your nom de guerre.
Did Hulegu have any interesting nicknames that you're aware of?
"Ioannides(junta dictator of Greece at the time) talks tough and he plays big games, but, if he finds himself face to face with pressure from Turkey, the USA, the United Kingdom and and the USSR to move away or reduce the Greek officers from the [Cypriot] National Guard, he will not have a serious option except giving in. Just like it happened in 1967, when various pressures toward Greece made it withdraw 8,000 soldiers that were found illegally in Cyprus and which achieved deterence from a Turkish intervention." ...
Department of State Memorandum, Secret, from the Cyprus Task Force of Joseph Sisco, 17 July 1974
page 158 "Ta Mystika Arxeia Toy Kisintzer"(The Secret Archives of Kissinger; Note: this is something that has been translated to Greek by the authors and the above excerpt has been translated back to English by me, so it not very accurate)
I thought I would post that tidbit from a work not available to non-Greek speakers to counter the cacophony of voices that present the United States as some of kid of crusader against Islam, while Europeans are some kind of "dhimmis". If Turkey has a foothold in Cyprus it is due in no small part to the work the United States helped achieved with its diplomacy, and not to mention its military aid toward Turkey. Greece had a military edge over Turkey at the time and still does, all Washington had to do was not hinder Greece and the Turkish invasion would have failed.
Cyprus should have served as the canary in the coal mine. The attacks of 9/11 have no doubt caused a recalibration of the radar in the West. There is still a long way to go but each day we see signs that it is getting more difficult for the global jihad to disguise its manifestations as anything other than its true cause.
You're right Nikephorous.
Why do so many people think of the US as an ally in this fight against Islam?
The US is trying to get Turkey to join the EU. WHY?
You're right Nikephorous.
Why do so many people think of the US as an ally in this fight against Islam?
The US is trying to get Turkey to join the EU. WHY?
Posted by: Voltaire at December 10, 2004 07:02 PM
Maybe Hugh can answer that question because I'm curious myself. I remember reading something a long time ago, it's vague in my mind now but it had to do with Europe after WWII.
Please scream at me and tell me I dreamed this if I'm wrong but as I recall, the concept of the European Union was an American idea.
All of the post WWII schemes, plans, and actual programs had names and I can't remember them all, but high ranking members of the American military decided that certain steps should be taken to ensure that European nations would never engage in war against one another again. That's why they agreed to divide Germany because it's so large and potentially dangerous. All parties to the peace treaties agreed that Germany could never be reunified, but a unification of Europe under the umbrella of a "union", similar to the United States, was considered the best way to prevent future wars, especially if every European nation was linked by a common bond or dependency that would make armed conflict all but impossible.
Germany is now unifed and circumstances have drastically changed. I cannot imagine why Washington would want Turkey in the EU, unless the pundits believe that the EU could constrain any radical Islamic tendencies that might emerge. They'll be carefully disguised until Turkey is in, and then unleashed on the hapless Europeans. I wonder if the EU has a contingency plan for throwing out errant members.
I don't understand many things our government does, especially the nations it chooses for allies and financial aid. I know foreign policy is a very complicated, intricate and delicate balancing act, but it appears more irrational every day.
You're right Nikephorous.
Why do so many people think of the US as an ally in this fight against Islam?
The US is trying to get Turkey to join the EU. WHY?
Posted by: Voltaire at December 10, 2004 07:02 PM
Maybe Hugh can answer that question because I'm curious myself. I remember reading something a long time ago, it's vague in my mind now but it had to do with Europe after WWII.
Please scream at me and tell me I dreamed this if I'm wrong but as I recall, the concept of the European Union was an American idea.
All of the post WWII schemes, plans, and actual programs had names and I can't remember them all, but high ranking members of the American military decided that certain steps should be taken to ensure that European nations would never engage in war against one another again. That's why they agreed to divide Germany because it's so large and potentially dangerous. All parties to the peace treaties agreed that Germany could never be reunified, but a unification of Europe under the umbrella of a "union", similar to the United States, was considered the best way to prevent future wars, especially if every European nation was linked by a common bond or dependency that would make armed conflict all but impossible.
Germany is now unifed and circumstances have drastically changed. I cannot imagine why Washington would want Turkey in the EU, unless the pundits believe that the EU could constrain any radical Islamic tendencies that might emerge. They'll be carefully disguised until Turkey is in, and then unleashed on the hapless Europeans. I wonder if the EU has a contingency plan for throwing out errant members.
I don't understand many things our government does, especially the nations it chooses for allies and financial aid. I know foreign policy is a very complicated, intricate and delicate balancing act, but it appears more irrational every day.
If you want to know how foreign policy works, read documents released under the Freedom of Information Act. Most modern Westernized countries(this excludes the muslim world) release foreign policy documents given enough time.
The National Security Archive site has many declassified government documents released by the Freedom of Information Act. In the context of this discussion the section called East Timor Revisited is the most interesting. Just like the invasion of Cyprus when a European colonial power left a Christian nation(this time instead of Britain pulling back from Cyprus, it was the Portuguese from East Timor), Indonesia took the opportunity to invade as according to jihad, there is no such thing as peace when war can be won. In both cases not only did the United States approve the invasions, but it was giving Indonesia as well as Turkey free arms long before them.