This superbly highlights the danger of the historical revisionism that whitewashes the Ottoman Empire's sorry record of discrimination against and harassment of non-Muslims. Now the whitewash is being held up as a model for present-day behavior. But since it is a historical fantasy, how can it possibly be implemented in the real world? Islamic law is clear, and it mandates the second-class status and institutionalized humiliation of Christians and Jews. Is that what we should implement to imitate the tolerant Ottomans? For some genuine information about Ottoman "tolerance," see below.
And as for Esposito's wolf-crying report about hate crimes against even "moderate Muslims," remember that he considers the suicide-attack-endorsing jihadist Qaradawi a "moderate."
From Zaman, with thanks to Anthony:
At a United Nations (UN) seminar, the tolerance that Ottomans showed to people of different religions was held up as an example to be adapted even today. The Ottoman social model in which different religion and nations lived under the same roof for hundreds of years was explained by Iranian philosopher Professor Seyyid Huseyin Nasr who addressed the seminar titled "Confronting Islamophobia: Education for Tolerance and Understanding." Nasr said, "There is no 1942 in the Islamic world nor is there an Auscwitz." During World War II, nearly 15,000 Jews were killed by Nazis at Auschwitz, but Jews from Spain escaped the inquisition and were sheltered by Ottomans. They lived with Muslims in peace for years. Nasr pointed this out saying, "European Christians and Jews escaping tyranny were not treated differently in the Ottoman model. "UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said that it is wrong to regard the Islamic world as a single body and that the Islamophobia created by this error should be eliminated as soon as possible.
John Esposito of Georgetown University said prejudice has developed against Muslims and that the opposition to Islam after the September 11th attacks has escalated and seems difficult to get rid of.
The experts speaking at the seminar which was mediated by UN General Secretariat Communication Undersecretary Sahshi Tharoor warned that political leaders, the media, NGOs and international organizations should work to prevent attacks targeting even moderate Muslims.
Annan said in his opening speech that there is a stereotype that Arabs represent the entire Islamic world while in fact the most populous Muslim countries are non-Arab. He used Indonesia and Turkey as examples.
The Secretary-General noted that as is the case in all other religions, modernists and conventionalists exist in the Islamic world and he described Islam as a rich belief that has been separated from its essence by the behavior of some. He added that some people claim Islam and democracy do not get along or that Islam contradicts with modernity and women's rights. Prejudice grows when groups let their misconceptions about Muslims be expressed, Annan said.
Esposito said that after the end of the Cold War, some Western commentators started to say that Islam formed a threat and a fear that the "Muslims are coming" was spread by these interpretations. Citing numerous examples about Islam enmity in the media and western politics, Esposito said that as a result of these campaigns, hate crimes against Muslims have started to escalate. He said these attacks are made against even moderate Muslim individuals and organizations.
The scholar Bat Yeor notes that the Armenian quest for reforms invalidated their "legal status," which involved a "contract" (i.e., with their Muslim Turkish rulers). This
...breach...restored to the umma [the Muslim community] its initial right to kill the subjugated minority [the dhimmis], [and] seize their property...
See also here: The Massacres of 1840-1860:
Fueled by Ottoman Turkish machination and socioeconomic/ religious differences, inter-religious massacres ensued in Lebanon and reaped thousands dead with many cities, towns and villages obliterated.
And here, about Egypt:
While there is a mosque at almost every street corner, many cities are without one single church. Also, many churches are falling apart, since obtaining a repair permit was almost impossibility until recently. The 1856 Ottoman Decree causes these problems.
There is much more. Even this article extolling Ottoman tolerance and whitewashing a good deal of contrary evidence has to acknowledge some features that modern Westerners are unlikely to think are all that tolerant:
Jews and Christians had lived in lands ruled by Islam since the time of the prophet Muhammad. Certain rules had evolved to order the relations between Muslim and non-Muslim: Islam was to be dominant; rulers were to be Muslim. Muslims were not allowed to convert to other religions, nor could non-Muslims attempt to convert Muslims. Non-Muslims were to wear distinctive clothing. In various places at various times non-Muslims were also restricted in certain ways. Perhaps the most important of the special regulations was the demand that Christians and Jews pay a special tax, the jizya, that was not paid by Muslims. This tax was paid by adult Christians and Jews who lived in Islamic states. By common belief, it was based on an agreement forged between Christians and Muslims in the first days of Muslim conquest. In return for tolerance of religious practice and the protection of the Islamic state, the non-muslims agreed to pay the tax and to accept the restrictions on their clothing, etc.
I am aware that influential Muslim apologists are preparing full-length whitewashes of the Ottoman record in order to influence the course of the public debate today. It may be time for some equally full-length work to be done to set the record straight.
Reason numero UNo why the UN has strayed far and wide from its original mandate as to almost be unrecognizable in the realm of reality.
It is the despots "White House" on the East Side.
What can be expected from this morally bankrupt organization when one considers it primary membership rolls.
Also, don't think this is an accident. The UN has as much to gain by promoting Turkish entrance into the EU as any the rest of the ummahs activities clearly demonstrate.
Consider the UN Saudi Arabian territory and what better way to spread Islam than an orgnization consisting of Third World despots and Islamic Nations charted to combat the very thing they become, facist enabling.
"Nasr said, "There is no 1942 in the Islamic world nor is there an Auscwitz." During World War II, nearly 15,000 Jews were killed by Nazis at Auschwitz, but Jews from Spain escaped the inquisition and were sheltered by Ottomans."
It's an error in the source, should be 1492 not 1942 ie the year Jews were expelled from Spain and Granada reconquered. But the 15,000 Jews killed figure is too bizarre to be a typo - more like Holocaust denial. A better figure is 1 - 1.5 million, 15000 per week during the main killing period is more like ti
In London the streets around Onslow Square, near the back of Harrods were laid out in the mid-19th century as a 84-acre charitable trust for ransoming Christian captives of Turkish pirates.
The koran approves capturing and holding to ransom infidels (47:4).
Well, there were a lot of holocausts in Islamic history. Let us not forget the genocide in Pakistan, were at the beginning of this century the Hindu population was around 30% of the total population; now only 1% in Pakistan is Hindu. Millions of Hindus have been killed or had to flee to India.
Some Hindu historians say in earlier history, from the year 1000 to the year 1525, there have been murdered/disappeared around 80 million Hindus. Also check this site: http://hinduwebsite.com/history/holocaust.htm
And the list goed on...
This historical revisionism has infected thinking at the "street" level as well. Check out Jim Doherty's December 3rd Letter to the Editor "Muslims Have a History of Tolerance" - you have to see this to disbelieve it:
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031779475106&path=%21editorials%21letters&s=1045855935005
Doherty's closing remark is the clincher:
"Certainly that history belongs in the celebration of the Statute for Religious Freedom account now in progress at 14th and Cary Streets."
We're talking about celebrating dhimmitude and the devshirme along with the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom of 1786 (drafted by Thomas Jefferson and skillfully passed through the Virginia Assembly by James Madison). The Virginia Statute is the groundbreaking document that is the basis of the religious clauses in the United States Constitution, which influenced other Western constitutions and human rights conventions (UDHR, ICCPR):
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/42.htm
I sent a reply to this outrageous letter late Wednesday, so hopefully my rebuttal will get printed shortly (I'm hoping Sunday). To the Richmond Times-Dispatch's credit, this has been a paper that has not been afraid to confront jihadism and other issues concerning Islam in its pages (it's a conservative paper, of course). Their Editor has graciously printed several of my letters concerning militant jihadism and dhimmitude.
If I can find my letter I might post it for you...
I know American European Muslims believe that the Ottoman Empire and Moorish Spain were paragons of tolerance, and most European and American History books concur. By modern standards, that world was oppressive.
This reminds me of my white relatives who lived in Mississippi in the sixties. If you asked them about racial trouble they would be look shocked and say, "But our colored people aren't unhappy." And they meant it, too. They were fond of their cooks and housekeepers, and they even hired a colored clerk in the store. On the other hand, they sure weren't concerned about segregated schools, waiting rooms, medical care, etc.
Excellent post, Miss Moneypenny (my wife is from the Magnolia State), but my how Mississippi has changed since then - the impunity racists enjoyed in the Sixties is now a relic of the past. If only the prejudice and civil incapacitations in Turkey were so consigned to the ash heap of history.
obl r us:
Free the Gnomes! No more garden dhimmitude!!
http://www.freethegnomes.com/
"Confronting Islamophobia: Education for Tolerance and Understanding."
When are we going to hear about a UN conference addressed to Muslims: Confronting Christianophobia (or Judeophobia etc): Education for Tolerance and Understanding?
"UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said that it is wrong to regard the Islamic world as a single body..."
Then, the imams preaching about the global unity of the Umma should be the first to be corrected?
" He added that some people claim Islam and democracy do not get along or that Islam contradicts with modernity and women's rights. "
Did he mean by "some people" all these Islamic clerics who claim that there is no legislator but Allah and no law but Sharia (which denies women's rights)?
"...hate crimes against Muslims have started to escalate."
Have I missed some news about Muslims being exploded live in trains, office buildings and market-places by hateful Infidels? Or, do I just have insufficient skills in Newspeak to make sense of it all...
I guess this means a coming boom in production for the canny clothing manufacturers in China, who will soon be churning out 'stylish' sew-on 'Stars of David' and nifty shirt sleeve 'Crosses' (regular and orthodox and maltese) for the upcoming need to distinguish those who will be ghettoized and required to pay the protection racket ('tax') to the Islomafia.
Time for the public schools to teach a little history without the rosy glasses of Ottomania.
The Armerinian genocide (a buddy of mine's family fled the region before WW I, and were lucky to get out before their town was razed, the people annihilated, and the churches shelled to gravel.)
And where are all of these "attacks" (that te apologists always trumpet about) on Muslims, in response to 9/11- or anything else?
They always use statistics like "assaults"* are up "470%" or "750%", but never say what the base number was. If it was 2 people 'assaulted' by intolerant goofballs, and is now 10, that IS an amazing 'statistical' increase, but, in reality, is laughable.
*Is throwing an egg at a mosque an "assault". Let's hear specifics.
NOTE- I invented a new group, "Armerinians", but simply meant "Armenians". ("American-Armenian" somehow morphed as I typed... selah!)
"UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said that it is wrong to regard the Islamic world as a single body..."
That's an interesting remark in light of the existance of the OIC, which is a single Islamic body. And what of the ratification of the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights of 1990 which established a human rights convention exclusively for the Islamic world?
Everyone should take the time to read the Cairo Declaration at some point, and compare it to the UDHR if you have the time:
http://www.religlaw.org/interdocs/docs/cairohrislam1990.htm
Here's the opening paragraph of the CDHR:
"Reaffirming the civilizing and historical role of the Islamic Ummah which God made the best nation that has given mankind a universal and well-balanced civilization in which harmony is established between this life and the hereafter and knowledge is combined with faith; and the role that this Ummah should play to guide a humanity confused by competing trends and ideologies and to provide solutions to the chronic problems of this materialistic civilization."
The last 2 articles of the CDHR pretty much tell you what you're dealing with here:
Article 24
All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari'ah.
Article 25
The Islamic Shari'ah is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification to any of the articles of this Declaration.
It seems only one article was necessary in the CDHR (Article 24) - the rest is just filler material.
By the way, does Article 2 of the CDHR prohibit what's going on in Darfur?
"It is forbidden to resort to such means as may result in the genocidal annihilation of mankind."
Now is that a ban on genocide or a ban on the total annihation of mankind? The language is vague, is it not?
Compare that to this:
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html
Any questions re. the intent and language in this convention?
The Ottoman empire did have a progressive and egalitarian constitution in the 19th Century called the Tamizat Reforms, which guaranteed equality under the law for all citizens regardless of religion. However, the Tamizat Reforms were put in place under pressure from Western powers, and were never implemented much beyond paper because -- guess what? -- they were strenuously resisted by the ulema because they contravened sharia.
If the Western world survives the onslaught of Islam with our histories and languages intact, Esposito will be known in the future as the #1 traitor of the resurgent Western World. And Bat Ye'Or will be its Joan of Arc. The word "Esposito" will be used in a similar vein as we now use "Quisling" "Vichy" or "Benedict Arnold".
I am also tired of the "we needed a new enemy" meme.
I did not know until reading Onward Muslim Soldiers how early the beginning of the modern Islamist movement was.
And one more thing and then I'll get off this soapbox. Here are the things Amnesty International lists as missing from the Arab Charter on Human Rights:
-the prohibition against genocide
-the prohibition against genocide;
deportation or forcible transfer of population without grounds permitted under international law
-prohibitions against taking of hostages, abductions* or unacknowledged detention (*"abduction" is the Sudanese euphemism for enslavement)
-elements of rights of persons belonging to minorities that must be respected in all circumstances
And there are these recommendations from AI to the Arab League:
- torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment should be prohibited
- freedom to hold opinion, as well as freedom of thought, conscience and religion should not be subject to any restrictions. There should be a specific provision that guarantees right to hold opinions without interference,
- propaganda for war and any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence should be prohibited
- freedom of religion should be consistent with Article 18 of the ICCPR, including to hold or adopt a religion or belief, and to manifest one's religion or belief without interference.
- the imposition of the death penalty on children under the age of 18 at the time of the commission of the offence should be prohibited without any exception
THIS is the direct descendant of Islamic "tolerance" - not very good, or complete, by Western terms.
OTTOMAN TOLERANCE,Ha Ha!!
Turkey's history is one of torture and MASSACRES.
Last night watched a documentary about TURKISH KURDS, what is happening TODAY IN 'TOLERANT' TURKEY. Kurds are still being persecuted [for being Kurds] even if they are fellow Muslims. Many are tortured, disappear, have their land taken, are driven out of their villages. A Western
team was NOT allowed to film one of these villages and all were stopped by 'tolerant Turkish
soldiers'. Historically the name 'TURK' was a byword for SAVAGE CRUELTY and only VLAD THE IMPALER frightened them - he was said to be 'more cruel than a Turk!!'
Google "devshirme" and then sing to me the praises of Ottoman "tolerance".
Here's an informative article entitled "The principles of Ottoman rule in the Balkans":
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=devshirme&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Deffb33116c58654f%26clickedItemRank%3D5%26userQuery%3Ddevshirme%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.lib.msu.edu%252Fsowards%252Fbalkan%252Flecture3.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResults%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lib.msu.edu%2Fsowards%2Fbalkan%2Flecture3.html
This article on Islamic tolerance by Mark Durie is truly exceptional:
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=devshirme&page=2&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Deffb33116c587165%26clickedItemRank%3D16%26userQuery%3Ddevshirme%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fjmm.aaa.net.au%252Farticles%252F514.htm%26invocationType%3Dnext%26fromPage%3DNSCPNextPrev%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fjmm.aaa.net.au%2Farticles%2F514.htm
"...Tolerance in the context of inequality. In the multi-cultural, pluralistic society which is Australia, the term 'tolerant' has comes to refer to something like 'accepting of difference', or 'allowing freedom of belief'. We apply this term to situations where groups which are seen as fundamentally equal in legitimacy coexist together.
Yet this is a recent development in the meaning of 'tolerance', which was originally applied to a situation of inequality where one party is regarded as deficient or negative in some way and the other party condones or endures this. Something must be thought bad before it can be 'tolerated'. Good things are not tolerated, they are appreciated."
Ah, the semantics of the word "tolerance".
Mike,
Thanks again for your post at the Blue Lemur , link:
http://forums.bluelemur.com/viewtopic.php?t=1028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=7d0426a0386f79510e4ff7b7e3ce0362
It is just what they needed: a thoroughly informative post with no clear political orientation. Furthermore, your Amnesty International credentials will go a long way in boosting your credibility on the left.
Do not feel discouraged by the fact that this thread moving slowly now. When more participants start to read it and post, it will start to gather momentum, and growing threads always get attention. As "insurance" I have just now forwarded the link to many liberal friends and encouraged them to chime in.
My pleasure, Rublev. I hope some others will come in behind me and emphasize the aspect of dhimmitude in that thread. Thanks again for the link.
And thanks to Alkaliel for her testimony!
It seems to me that the UN is doing this in order to encourage the other EU members to let Turkey join.
I've been convinced for a while that the UN is sinister.
You know, people, that the christian nations that suffered under Ottoman rule have their own histories and literatures that cover the period. It might not be a bad idea to look at Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Macedonian, and Romanian accounts of what went on. You might be surprised at what you find but, ultimately, you'll be better educated and will find you have to move your world views a great deal less than those at the UN promoting the Ottoman model.
Hmmm. I wonder if this fails, if the UN will propose using the Sudanese Tolerance Concept as a model? They seem horribly similar.
As an American I think the UN is absolutely sinister. It seems to exist only to oppose the U.S. We pay huge amounts of cash for the constant anti-American drivel. We need some sort of international forum, but as it exists now it is useless.
Here's a link to CAIR's support for defending
suspected terrorists that aren't even citizens,note that the Antisemitic Ernst Zundel
has a friend a CAIR.
BTW,Mohummed Harket(sure are allot of Muhammeds being arrested and detained) was connected to the Al-Qaeda man from Canada that used a bogus Orphange in Afghanistan for funneling charitable donations to terrorist groups in the MiddleEast. Seems that Harket is claiming his 350 mile taxi ride from a suspected
militant Mosque in Montreal to Toronto with the
Al-Qaeda member Mr.Khadr was a fluke and he had no knowledge of Khadr's background.
Wow,what are the odds of sharing a cab with a Al Qaeda member in a democratic Christian Country
that suspect a Mosque of have links to a militant wing of Islam.
He must be telling the truth,he wouldn't lie to CAIR about his innocences do ya think.
http://www.caircan.ca/itn_more.php?id=1289_0_2_0_C
I agree with Miss Moneypenny with respect to the anology to black people in the South.
There was no problem as far as the Muslims were concerned as long as the Jews or Christians agreed to pay the Jiyza, didn't ask for equal rights or didn't seek independence. That doesn't mean that there weren't problems for Jews and other non-Muslims who were subject to arrest at the will of the local ruler. The Syrians still defend the notorious blood libel trial in the 1800's of a Jew for murder.
That's basically the way it was in the South. As far as white people were concerned, as long as Jim Crow went unchallenged, there was no racial problem.
First, there was Iran complaining about human rights abuses in Europe. Now the UN is calling the Osmanli Empire a model of social 'tolerance'??
If this stuff wasn't for real, it would be to ridiculous to accept as anyting but a joke!
Oh wait, the UN is a joke...
First, there was Iran complaining about human rights abuses in Europe. Now the UN is calling the Osmanli Empire a model of social 'tolerance'??
If this stuff wasn't for real, it would be to ridiculous to accept as anyting but a joke!
Oh wait, the UN is a joke...
First, there was Iran complaining about human rights abuses in Europe. Now the UN is calling the Osmanli Empire a model of social 'tolerance'??
If this stuff wasn't for real, it would be to ridiculous to accept as anyting but a joke!
Oh wait, the UN is a joke...
First, there was Iran complaining about human rights abuses in Europe. Now the UN is calling the Osmanli Empire a model of social 'tolerance'??
If this stuff wasn't for real, it would be to ridiculous to accept as anyting but a joke!
Oh wait, the UN is a joke...
Sorry for the triple post. Not sure what caused that.